Mr.Senator. No, no, it was loud; but it happened to be she was near me.
Mr.Hubert. There were other people in the place?
Mr.Senator. Not a lot. There were others you know, the usual morning Sunday business in the restaurant is sort of minute. So what I did when I heard that, I called up the lawyer. I was going to give him the news. I figured he would probably be sitting home, you know, Jim Martin, who happens to be a friend of mine. But when I called him. I spoke to his daughter and she told me her dad and mother were in church. Dad would be home in half an hour. I said all right, maybe I’ll call him back.
A short while later, the same girl, the same waitress hollered out that the man—she wasn’t pronouncing the name right, the Carousel Club, but I sort of got the drift of the name and she hollered Jack Ruby killed Oswald. This is what she come up with later.
Mr.Hubert. How much later?
Mr.Senator. I would probably say about 5 minutes.
Mr.Hubert. But it was after you had called Martin?
Mr.Senator. Yes; after I called Martin.
Mr.Hubert. You called Martin right away?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I was going to tell him that. I didn’t think he would be—of course, I didn’t know he was going to church or anything.
Mr.Hubert. He is a close friend of yours?
Mr.Senator. Yes. He is an attorney there; yes.
Mr.Hubert. All right, then?
Mr.Senator. Then when I heard that again, then I went up to see him. Of course, I froze in that chair there. I said my God, I didn’t know what in the world to think. Then I went up there and I no sooner got there, he had just got there, I don’t know, I think a moment or two before me. His wife and daughter had just come out of church.
Mr.Hubert. You went to his home, you mean?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I went to his house. I told Jim and he said, “I heard already. I saw it on TV.”
Mr.Hubert. He was already at his house, you said?
Mr.Senator. Yes; he was home already.
Mr.Hubert. How long after your phone call to him do you suppose you got to his house?
Mr.Senator. Well, he lived quite a ways. I would probably say it was about a 20-minute ride.
Mr.Hubert. You left the Eatwell just as soon as the girl announced that the man who had shot Oswald was Jack Ruby?
Mr.Senator. I finished my coffee. I had about a half a cup left, something like that.
Mr.Hubert. You did not attempt to call Martin again?
Mr.Senator. No; I didn’t call him. I just went direct. I figured if he wasn’t home I’d wait for him.
Mr.Hubert. What was your reason for wanting to see Martin?
Mr.Senator. Well, after all, this was my roommate. No particular reason. I happened to know he was a lawyer.
Mr.Hubert. Did you go to him as a lawyer or as a friend?
Mr.Senator. As a friend, as a friend. So I went up there and said, “Jim, what in the world are we going to do?”
Mr.Hubert. I take it from what you said a moment ago, “After all, he was my roommate”, that you felt some concern for yourself.
Mr.Senator. I’ll tell you how I felt. I knew after this had happened, I thought it was best that I volunteered than somebody come after me.
Mr.Hubert. You thought that somebody would be coming after you?
Mr.Senator. Oh, eventually they would have to. Eventually somebody would have to be coming after me. After all, I was his roommate.
Mr.Hubert. I assume you were going to see Martin really to seek his advice as a lawyer as well as a friend?
Mr.Senator. Yes; what to do. What should I do.
Mr.Hubert. Was that true of the phone call as well?
Mr.Senator. Sir?
Mr.Hubert. Was that motivation true of the phone call to Martin as well?
Mr.Senator. No. The first call, I was just going to tell him that I heard that Oswald was shot, which the girl told me. But on the second time—Ididn’t——
Mr.Hubert. You realized your position at that time as being his roommate and that gave you concern because you thought that the police might be picking you up?
Mr.Senator. Sure.
Mr.Hubert. And you thought you had better have the advice of a lawyer?
Mr.Senator. To ask him what to do. Should I go down there or what?
Mr.Hubert. What did you do in fact?
Mr.Senator. Well, we went down there. We went down there and, of course, we had a tough time getting in. When we got down the place was just jammed.
Mr.Hubert. How long were you at Martin’s house, speaking to him?
Mr.Senator. I would say maybe 5 minutes, maybe 10 minutes something like that.
Mr.Hubert. And did you in effect ask him what you should do?
Mr.Senator. I asked him what I should do and I thought it would be best to go down. He thought so, too.
Mr.Hubert. It was your suggestion that it would be best to go down, or his.
Mr.Senator. I think it was a combination of both.
Mr.Hubert. But in any case, within about 5 minutes the decision had been made?
Mr.Senator. 5 or 10, something like that. I’m not sure of the exact time.
Mr.Hubert. The decision had been made to go down to the police department. Now, what was the purpose of going down there?
Mr.Senator. I went down there, I thought it would be best if I go down there than to be picked up, because after all, I’m his roommate and I know they are going to eventually pick me up, because I was living with him.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, the idea was that you were going to go down there and say, “Now look, I’m George Senator. I was a roommate of Jack Ruby’s and do you have anything to ask of me?” That was it?
Mr.Senator. I would probably say it was in the nature of that; yes.
Mr.Hubert. Incidentally, a moment ago you said that you were sleeping with Jack Ruby, and in some circles sleeping with someoneis——
Mr.Senator. I said I was what?
Mr.Hubert. You were sleeping with Jack Ruby.
Mr.Senator. I was sleeping with him?
Mr.Hubert. I think you said that.
Mr.Senator. I never said that, never.
Mr.Hubert. I misunderstood you then.
Mr.Senator. You sure did.
Mr.Hubert. You did notmean——
Mr.Senator. You sure did.
Mr.Hubert. Did I hear that right?
Mr.Griffin. I did not catch it.
Mr.Senator. You sure did.
Mr.Hubert. In any case, if I did hear that I was wrong about that?
Mr.Senator. You definitely were wrong. You definitely were wrong. I don’t even remember this incident being said.
Mr.Hubert. That is all right. I just wanted to get it clear, because some people might misunderstand the phrase, and I would not want that to be misunderstood if it were not true.
Mr.Senator. It definitely isn’t.
Mr.Hubert. All right. So when you got there, what happened?
Mr.Senator. The place was mobbed, and, of course, I believe there were a couple of police attendants by the elevator as we got off.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you go, in fact?
Mr.Senator. Actually, I didn’t know where to go. We went upstairs.
Mr.Hubert. What entrance, do you remember?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know. I guess the front entrance, we went up.
Mr.Hubert. You went to the Chief of Police office, or what office?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know what office I was at.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know whom you reported to or whom you were with?
Mr.Senator. First we were mobbed. I told these people, these two policemen, whoever they were I don’t know, I told them who I was.
Mr.Hubert. Where were they stationed?
Mr.Senator. They were right by the elevator as you got off.
Mr.Hubert. As you got off on one of the upper floors?
Mr.Senator. One of the floors. I don’t remember what floor it was on.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you were not mobbed, as you put it, or you did not speak to anybody as you came into the building?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. On the ground floor?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. But as you got off, whatever floor it was, two policemen stopped you; is that the idea?
Mr.Senator. Yes. I was with Jim Martin.
Mr.Hubert. And when they stopped you, they asked your name I suppose?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you told them?
Mr.Senator. Told them who I was. And then, you know, the place was mobbed and there was a bunch, whoever these people were, reporters or whatever, there were some of them there. They happened to overhear it, and they mobbed me. They mobbed me.
Then eventually two great big policemen came over and one grabbed me on one side of the arm, you know, they looked like giants to me, and one on the other side and they took me into this room. Remember I told you they put me into a little sort of solitary room.
Mr.Hubert. That is on the same floor?
Mr.Senator. Yes. And I don’t remember how long. I mean I had no way of knowing time that I was in there in this room there waiting for somebody who was going to—they said to wait there, I don’t know. They kept me in this room. Then somebody finally approached me. They wanted a statement.
Mr.Hubert. You got there, I suppose, about 20 or 30 minutes after leaving Martin’s house?
Mr.Senator. I would say something like that, between 20 and 30 minutes.
Mr.Hubert. And you were, almost immediately after getting off on one of the upper floors of the building, mobbed by the press group and taken by these two policemen?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And put into a room on the same floor?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And then was Mr. Martin with you?
Mr.Senator. He was with me, but he never, you know, when they took me to this room they wouldn’t let him in.
Mr.Hubert. Did he ask to go in or to remain with you?
Mr.Senator. He says “I’m his lawyer”; he was my lawyer. But we still were separated.
Mr.Hubert. Did he ask that he be allowed to remain with you?
Mr.Senator. He wanted to get in.
Mr.Hubert. Can you remember whether he actually asked to get in with you?
Mr.Senator. It seemed like he wanted to get in. I mean I don’t remember the exact words that he said, because they wouldn’t let him in, so apparently he was trying to get in too.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember whether you were placed under arrest?
Mr.Senator. No, never placed under arrest.
Mr.Hubert. When you were escorted to this room and sat down, was the door locked?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Were you told to remain there?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Were there any guards on the door?
Mr.Senator. Not to my knowledge. I don’t think so.
Mr.Hubert. Were you handcuffed?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. And you say you don’t know how long you remained there?
Mr.Senator. I couldn’t tell. This was a little tiny room. It looked like where they keep some inventory books—not books, probably paper goods or something like that. It was a very small room.
Mr.Hubert. Could you hear what was going on outside the room?
Mr.Senator. No, couldn’t hear a thing.
Mr.Hubert. Did the room have any windows in it?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Was the light on?
Mr.Senator. Yes. It was very small. It was a very small room. As I say, it must be a room like they keep paper goods, things of that nature, or something like that in there.
Mr.Hubert. Did the police search you or frisk you?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. They did not take anything away from you?
Mr.Senator. No. I wasn’t under arrest at all.
Mr.Hubert. And what was the next thing that happened?
Mr.Senator. Well, finally, I don’t remember this man’s name, you may have a note of it, I assume he was a detective. He was in plain clothes. He questioned me.
Mr.Hubert. Did he question you in that same room, or take you outside?
Mr.Senator. No, he questioned me in that room.
Mr.Hubert. Just one man?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t remember his name?
Mr.Senator. No, I don’t.
Mr.Hubert. Was he connected with the Federal Government or the State government?
Mr.Senator. I assumed he was local.
Mr.Hubert. Have you found out since who he was?
Mr.Senator. No, I didn’t. I think he must have been a detective of some nature. I mean I don’t know what his classification was, because all I know is, he was in plain clothes.
Mr.Hubert. What was the nature of his inquiry?
Mr.Senator. It was, you know, what happened from the time of the shooting up until the present time. That was the inquiry.
Mr.Hubert. The time of the President’s shooting?
Mr.Senator. Yes, from the Presidentto——
Mr.Hubert. Did he more or less ask you to go over and to account for your time during that period?
Mr.Senator. You mean where I was?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. Yes, yes.
Mr.Hubert. Am I right then in saying that his inquiry was to ask you what you had been doing since the President had been shot and what Ruby had been doing too, I suppose?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Both of you?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. He asked you concerning the events in your life during the afternoon of Friday, November 22?
Mr.Senator. I believe that is how it started.
Mr.Hubert. And on the night of the 22d and the early morning of the 23d?
Mr.Senator. There is only one thing that slipped my mind to tell him, and that was the paper issue, the newspaper issue and the billboard, “Impeach Earl Warren”. That was the only thing I forgot to tell him that slipped my mind.
Mr.Hubert. Did you tell him that you had gotten up, that Jack had wakened you early in the morning and had asked you to go out with him?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know if he questioned me on that or not. I don’t remember if he did or not on that. I don’t remember if he did on that.
Mr.Hubert. But if hedid——
Mr.Senator. But I had been in a pretty shaky mood that day, most naturally nervous.
Mr.Hubert. But your point is that if he did ask you about whether you had gone out with Ruby in the early hours of the morning, you did not tell him about the concern of Ruby over the Bernard Weissman ad, nor did you tell him about taking the pictures of the Earl Warren poster?
Mr.Senator. No, I didn’t tell him that.
Mr.Hubert. Now, what was your reason for not?
Mr.Senator. No particular reason.
As a matter of fact, I’m sorry that I—I should have told him. If I thought about it I should have told him that because I think this was a benefactor for Jack Ruby.
Mr.Hubert. And you say that the reason why you did not mention these two episodes was forgetfulness?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
I was a pretty shaken boy. I’m not used to something like this. This is something that will shake you up.
Mr.Hubert. Is it that you were shaken up and thought it best not to mention anything about it, or that you actually forgot?
Mr.Senator. Just forgot.
Mr.Hubert. And I assume that that officer then carried you through the events of Saturday morning after you got up and Saturday afternoon and Saturday night and Sunday morning, is that not so?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And at that time did you tell him what you had done on Saturday afternoon?
Mr.Senator. No, because I didn’t—I don’t think I did because I don’t know if I was questioned on that. As a matter of fact, to the best of my knowledge I don’t think I was questioned at any time what I did on Saturday afternoon, to the best of my knowledge that I can think of.
Mr.Hubert. You mean they questioned you about what you did on Friday night and Saturday morning?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And Sunday morning, but they omitted Saturday afternoon?
Mr.Senator. The best that I can recollect, it was more important of the events of when I had seen Jack, and the times that he got home and when I got home.
Mr.Hubert. Did you tell him concerning all of those matters approximately as you have told us to date?
Mr.Senator. You mean from the events of Saturday?
Mr.Hubert. Friday, Saturday and Sunday up to the point we have reached in this deposition.
Mr.Senator. Yes, but you are more thorough than they are.
Mr.Hubert. How long do you suppose that interview with the police officer lasted?
Mr.Senator. I have no idea.
Mr.Hubert. What happened next?
Mr.Senator. From there he took me to the FBI on the same floor in another room, and his story was about the same.
Of course, if I remember right, I think he goes back like you started, you know, myname——
Mr.Hubert. That is to say, the FBI examination of you?
Mr.Senator. I don’t remember his name. Yes, the FBI man. And if I recall right, I think he asked me, you know, my name, how old I was, you know, like you started off.
Mr.Hubert. He went into details as it were?
Mr.Senator. Pardon me?
Mr.Hubert. He went into more detail?
Mr.Senator. Oh, yes; because the details—in other words, he started from where I came from, my name and how old I was and things of that nature, like you did.
Mr.Hubert. And I think you said that his examination was thorough as it were.
Mr.Senator. Well, there was more to it.
Mr.Hubert. In what way? Did he ask you for more details?
Mr.Senator. Well, he went into my personal life, you know, like you started off.
Mr.Hubert. Would you say that his examination of you was along the same lines as mine has been?
Mr.Senator. No; because—well, in certain parts I would say, but I think yours are more meticulous—is that the proper word—than his. In other words, yours are more thorough.
Mr.Hubert. But he asked you to account for your time?
Mr.Senator. Oh, yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you told him about going out in the morning with Jack, having been awakened by Jack and going out, and so forth?
Mr.Senator. No; I forgot that. In other words, when they shoved me from one to the other, it was the same way.
Mr.Hubert. You mean you do not have any recollection of having told the FBI that Jack had awakened you in the morning and that you had gone out with him?
Mr.Senator. I don’t remember if I did or not. I may have. I don’t remember if I did or not, now, on that.
Mr.Hubert. Do you have any distinct recollections as to whether or not you mentioned the Earl Warren poster or the concern of Ruby about the Bernard Weissman advertisement?
Mr.Senator. I don’t remember if I did or not. Maybe I did, maybe I didn’t. I don’t remember that.
Mr.Hubert. Did he ask you about accounting for your time on Saturday afternoon?
Mr.Senator. I don’t remember that, either.
Mr.Hubert. How long did this interrogation by the FBI man take?
Mr.Senator. Of course, it’s guesswork again. I would say maybe it took a couple hours.
Mr.Hubert. Was it one man or more?
Mr.Senator. One. I would say now——Mr.Hubert. Did you tell either the State officer who interrogated you or the FBI man who interrogated you that you had a lawyer and that his name was Martin?
Mr.Senator. I don’t think I did.
Mr.Hubert. You did not ask that your lawyer be present?
Mr.Senator. No; I didn’t.
Mr.Hubert. What occurred then after the interview with the FBI man was over? What happened?
Mr.Senator. Then they let me go. They released me.
Mr.Hubert. Who did that, in fact, the FBI man or a State officer?
Mr.Senator. The FBI man. If I remember right, I think the FBI man said, “That is all there is.” That is all there was of the interview.
Mr.Hubert. And you were permitted to leave?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember what time you left?
Mr.Senator. I would say it was between 6 and 7 at night because I know when I got outside again it was dark.
Mr.Hubert. Was anybody waiting for you?
Mr.Senator. No; there was nobody waiting for me. Somebody gave me a message, or handed me a message, I don’t remember who it was, that Jim Martin would meet me, the fellow who brought me down, the attorney who brought me down.
Mr.Hubert. Was that a police officer?
Mr.Senator. No, no; you mean who handed me the message?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. I don’t remember.
Mr.Hubert. Was it a written message? I asked that because you said you did not remember who handedyou——
Mr.Senator. I don’t remember who it was.
Mr.Hubert. Which would indicate it was written, you see?
Mr.Senator. I don’t remember who it was. All he said, he would meet me there. In other words, he was going to meet me across the street fromthe——
Mr.Hubert. Was it a verbal message?
Mr.Senator. I think it was a written message. I don’t remember who gave it to me.
Mr.Hubert. You just put it in your pocket or something?
Mr.Senator. No; I read it.
Mr.Hubert. You read it and threw it away?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I knew I would meet him. So I met him. As a matter of fact, I was with three attorneys when we met, either two or three attorneys.
Mr.Hubert. Mr. Griffin, do you want to ask any questions on this segment that I have covered this morning up to this point?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; I want to go back a little bit. When Jack Ruby left the house Sunday morning, you were dressed, were you not?
Mr.Senator. I?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. You were not dressed?
Mr.Senator. No; I was in my underwear.
Mr.Griffin. When you got down to the Eatwell Restaurant, can you tell us which of the waitresses, management people, were on duty?
Mr.Senator. Which of the waitresses?
Mr.Griffin. And management people were on duty.
Mr.Senator. I would say there were probably two or—no; not glancing around or anything of that nature, I would probably say there were 2 or 3 waitresses.
Mr.Griffin. You eat there regularly?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I stop there every day.
Mr.Griffin. You say you know these waitresses?
Mir.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. So what I am asking you is to tell us which of the waitresses were on duty.
Mr.Senator. I could recollect the one who said it when I heard her say it.
Mr.Griffin. Which one was that?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know her name. I know her.
Mr.Griffin. Do you not know the names of any of the people who work in there?
Mr.Senator. This girl here, I mean I know them all, but I don’t know them by name.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know any of them by name?
Mr.Senator. No; I don’t know any of them by name.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know the names of the owners?
Mr.Senator. I know the owner. I know his first name. I don’t know his last name.
Mr.Griffin. What is that?
Mr.Senator. His first name is Jim. There is a father and son. Jim is the father and Charles is the son.
Mr.Griffin. How old would you say they are?
Mr.Senator. I would probably say Charles must be—of course, they weren’t there that day. Charles I would probably say is in—could be in I guess his late thirties, I’m not sure, and the father I would probably say is maybe in his late sixties or early seventies.
Mr.Griffin. Can you describe the waitress that was on duty?
Mr.Senator. She was a woman about, I would probably say in her late forties or maybe early fifties, dark haired if I remember rightly, and I believe brown eyes. I don’t know how to describe her.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know a waitress there by the name of Helen?
Mr.Senator. Helen? A little short girl.
Mr.Griffin. I don’t know what she looks like.
Mr.Senator. Yes; I know one. The other is a little short girl I think by the name of Helen. I think it is Helen. See, now once in a while they wear badges but I can’t remember one from the other, outside of their faces. I always say hello to them. On the other hand, I never take that much notice of who’s who.
Mr.Griffin. Of course, the waitress who was on duty knew that you were Jack Ruby’s roommate, did she not?
Mr.Senator. I don’t think so. I don’t think she did.
Mr.Griffin. The people at the Eatwellknew——
Mr.Senator. Some know me but I don’t think this one knew me.
Mr.Griffin. They know Jack as well as they know you, don’t they?
Mr.Senator. No; I don’t know if they know him. See, Jack and I never went in there, I mean together.
Mr.Griffin. Jack eats there regularly?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Or ate there regularly, did he not?
Mr.Senator. No; Jack don’t eat there because he don’t like their type cooking. No; Jack don’t eat there. Now I go there every day. I go there every day, I go there every morning. I have coffee, I would say, probably 7 days a week.
Mr.Griffin. Was there any recognition by anyone at the Eatwell while you were in there?
Mr.Senator. There was very few people in there that morning.
Mr.Griffin. But of the people who were there, did any of them appear to recognize that you were connected with Jack Ruby when they learned over the television set that Jack Rubyhad——
Mr.Senator. I would probably say to the best of my knowledge, no.
Mr.Griffin. Now, that would indicate that nobody said anything to you about it. You did not have anythingto——
Mr.Senator. No, they didn’t say a word to me about it. Now, if they did or not, as I say, to the best of my knowledge, no. Now I can’t quote myself, if I am that correct or not.
Mr.Griffin. I am curious as to any other people that you thought of contacting after you heard that Jack hadshot——
Mr.Senator. No; that was it.
Mr.Griffin. Of course, you——Mr.Senator. I called up Jim because I happened to know Jim and Jim was an attorney.
Mr.Griffin. You thought about calling Jim before you knew who it was that had shot Lee Oswald?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know at the time that you tried to call Martin that it was somebody associated with the Carousel Club that had done it?
Mr.Senator. You mean Jack Ruby, my roommate?
Mr.Griffin. Yes. Now, you say it was after you called Martin that you learned that it was Jack Ruby who had shot Oswald, but you said as I understand it somewhere between the time you learned Oswald was shot and you learned Ruby had done it, you heard something about it being someone from the Carousel Club.
Mr.Senator. No; I didn’t.
Mr.Griffin. You did not?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. So that at the time you called Mr. Martin, you had no idea whoshot——
Mr.Senator. I called him because it was local news. That is why I called Jim.
Mr.Griffin. Did you think of calling anybody else?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you think of trying to get ahold of Jack Ruby to tell him about it?
Mr.Senator. No; because Jack left home shortly before that.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have some idea where he was?
Mr.Senator. No; none whatsoever.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when you walked into the police station, I understand you to say that you were mobbed by members of the press? Did you say anything to those members of the press?
Mr.Senator. Well, they ganged me so and everybody was throwing questions at me, and I don’t even remember the things that I answered because they asked me so many things and so many people were mobbing me.
Mr.Griffin. But you were answering their questions?
Mr.Senator. I was answering some of them, whatever they were asking me.
Mr.Griffin. How long would you say it was that you answered questions?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know. Maybe about 5 minutes I guess before two policemen nabbed me.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember any of the questions they asked?
Mr.Senator. No; God, they was throwing them left and right. I couldn’t keep up with them. I just couldn’t keep up with them, what they were talking about. I was just in circles, you know. Now how can I answer these questions there.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see reports in the newspaper the next day or that evening about what you had said down at the police station?
Mr.Senator. No; I didn’t. I didn’t see no papers that evening. As a matter of fact, I never even saw the run, I—still to this day—I’ve never seen the TV of the shooting. I have never seen that.
Mr.Griffin. When you went out to Martin’s house, did you have any fear for yourself?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have any fear or thought that the police or someone might try to implicate you?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. When you describe yourself as being shaken up when you were at the policestation——
Mr.Senator. Something like this, I would say the normal person it would make him nervous. Here I have gone through a half a century already and I have never had any incidents in my life, and I would say the normal person would be shaken up.
Mr.Griffin. I don’t have any more. Wait a second. Let me ask this. When you came downtown with Mr. Martin, did you come down in his car or your car?
Mr.Senator. I think I came down in my truck. No, I think I came down in his car. I’m not sure but I think I came down in his car.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall where you parked, whose car it was where you parked downtown?
Mr.Senator. Either parked on Commerce or Main Street, one of the two. I’m not sure.
Mr.Griffin. Near Harwood or near Pearl, or were you right in front of the police station?
Mr.Senator. No, no; we were down further, just to grab a parking space. I just don’t remember how far down it was, but I would assume, I think we walked, I don’t know, maybe two or three blocks to my knowledge, something like that.
Mr.Griffin. Did you come by the Western Union station?
Mr.Senator. Going up with Mr. Martin?
Mr.Griffin. Either way, either going downtown or walking back to the police station.
Mr.Senator. I think we come up Commerce. I’m not sure.
Mr.Griffin. Let me then be more direct about this. Do you have any recollection that day of seeing Jack Ruby’s car downtown?
Mr.Senator. No; that I have never seen, no.
Mr.Griffin. I don’t think I have anything more, Mr. Hubert.
Mr.Hubert. Before I pass on to another aspect, I think there is one point that needs a bit of clarification. Mr. Griffin asked you whether or not you considered calling Ruby when you heard that Oswald had been shot, to convey the news to him as you conveyed it to your other friend, Mr. Martin. You said that you had not because you didn’t know where he was; is that correct?
Mr.Senator. Well, I knew he left the house, you know, before I did.
Mr.Hubert. You have also testified that he had told you that he was going to take the dog to the club.
Mr.Senator. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. Therefore, you knew he was at the club or at least you had some indication?
Mr.Senator. He could have been there. Now he told me he was going to the club.
Mr.Hubert. And the club was just about a block away?
Mr.Senator. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. So when you didn’t get Mr. Martin, you didn’t try Ruby at the club?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. You knew the number of the club?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Have you any comment to make as to why you didn’t call Ruby?
Mr.Senator. No particular reason. I didn’t think of it, because when he left the house he said he was going to take the dog to the club and most naturally I heard the conversation he was going to the Western Union, so who knew where his whereabouts would be.
Mr.Hubert. Well, of course, you didn’t know his whereabouts after you called Martin?
Mr.Senator. That is right, there was no particular reason. It just happened to be that I thought of Jim Martin.
Mr.Hubert. All I want to do is to give you an opportunity to state for the record why it was that you did not next think of calling your friend and roommate whose approximate location you knew?
Mr.Senator. It just didn’t enter my mind, that is all. I just didn’t think about it. There was no particular reason why.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you this, Mr. Senator. Was it your practice to spend time socially with Jack Ruby other than when you saw him at the apartment? Did you and he do things together?
Mr.Senator. No; first of all I’m out most of the time. When I get up in the morning, I mean he is still sleeping when I got up, and I don’t see him in the daytime. Maybe on rare occasions something will happen, but the overall picture, no.
Mr.Griffin. And you say you are out most of the time. Is this in connection with your business?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you have a set of calls that you make every day?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I make calls.
Mr.Griffin. Regular customers that you call on?
Mr.Senator. Customers, or at times probably get new ones.
Mr.Griffin. Now on Saturdays or Sundays you do not work?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. With whom do you spend your time on Saturdays and Sundays normally?
Mr.Senator. Nothing in general. Once in a while I would meet Jim downtown because Jim Martin comes downtown on a Saturday, like a lot of lawyers do. They come down about 10, 10:30, 11 o’clock and they check their mail or any messages come in, such as that. Incidentally Jim Martin’s office is right across the street; of course, he just moved recently. It was at the Davis Building which is across the street from the Adolphus Hotel on Main. He has been there for quite a number of years to my knowledge.
Mr.Griffin. Who would you list as your friends in Dallas outside of Jim Martin and Jack Ruby?
Mr.Senator. Well, the people I stayed with who were friends of mine.
Mr.Griffin. Can you give us their names?
Mr.Senator. Yes; Jean and Lindy Lauve, a fellow by the name of Bill Downey, Tom Howard, the attorney. I don’t say I associated with him but he is a friend of mine. Another lawyer by the name of Mike Barclay: he is a friend of mine. Not that these are complete associations that you are with them every day or so, or things of that nature.
Mr.Griffin. But are there other people whom you see more often and you are closer to than Barclay and Howard?
Mr.Senator. No; not particularly. Of course, every now and then an out-of-town friend of mine would come in, a traveling man; if he happened to be in Dallas I would see him, or he may call me. In other words, I’ll put it this way—I had a particular hangout.
Mr.Griffin. Where was that?
Mr.Senator. That was the Burgundy Room. I used to go there quite often.
Mr.Griffin. That is in the Adolphus Hotel?
Mr.Senator. That is in the lobby of the Adolphus Hotel. When I used to go in, you know, the latter part of the afternoon, around 5, used to always run across friends that you know and we would always have a talk session or something of that nature there. Of course, I had many friends that came in there.
Mr.Griffin. But you would say that you saw Barclay and Howard and Martin more often than you saw the other people?
Mr.Senator. Martin more so than the others. But the others, I’d see them every now and then. Like the trial I’d seen them down at the courthouse and things of that nature.
Mr.Griffin. Now what about the Lauves?
Mr.Senator. The Lauves, those are people who I stayed with, who kept me up when I didn’t have a place to stay.
Mr.Griffin. But did you see them more often than you saw Howard and Barclay?
Mr.Senator. I stayed there every day. I was living there.
Mr.Griffin. I mean prior to the shooting.
Mr.Senator. Prior to that on rare occasions, on rare occasions. One time I used to see them quite often. Of course, that is when I was traveling.
Mr.Griffin. But at the time that Jack Ruby shot Lee Oswald, of all the people you have mentioned, Jim Martin was the person you felt the closest to?
Mr.Senator. He was a close friend of mine. I used to see him almost every day, especially more so during the trial.
Mr.Griffin. But what I am trying to get at is was there anybody else to whom you felt equally as close?
Mr.Senator. I had—let me put it this way—I had a lot of good friends.I don’t know how you want to classify what you call close. Many friends I had, good friends.
Mr.Griffin. Apparently of all the people you knew in Dallas, the one that you felt most inclined to call when you heard that Oswald had been shot was Jim Martin.
Mr.Senator. It happened to be I thought of Jim Martin, yes, and I called him.
Mr.Griffin. And if you had reached him at that time, I suppose you would have gone out to his house or you would have carried this on further. You have had some conversation with him about it?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I imagine so. I would imagine so.
Mr.Griffin. What I am getting at is you didn’t really have to convey the news to Jim Martin or anybody else.
Mr.Senator. No; it just happened to be it was local news, you know. It is like probably a thousand other people did, called their friends “Did you hear this, did you hear that.” It could be anywheres in the country.
Mr.Griffin. When the President was shot did you call anybody?
Mr.Senator. No; because I didn’t know. I was told.
Mr.Griffin. But when you were told did you call anybody?
Mr.Senator. No, no; because the reason I didn’t call anybody, it was a weekday. Now this is only guesswork. It was a weekday, and, of course, I assumed that everybody knew it as fast as I knew it or probably faster than I knew it, with the many thousands of people who were in that locale, they knew it before I did.
Mr.Hubert. All right, let’s continue from the point that you left the jail. Did you meet anyone?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Who?
Mr.Senator. I was with Jim, I met Jim Martin and another attorney who I had only met for the first time and I don’t remember his name.
Mr.Hubert. They were waiting for you or you met them outside?
Mr.Senator. They told me they would meet me somewheres.
Mr.Hubert. Where was that?
Mr.Senator. We met at a bar across the street from the courthouse.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know the name of the bar?
Mr.Senator. I think it was the TV Bar.
Mr.Hubert. The message you had was that they would meet you there, is that right?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you did go there and talked to Martin and the other lawyer?
Mr.Senator. Yes; the other attorney.
Mr.Hubert. How long were you with them?
Mr.Senator. If I recall right, I would say we sat in that bar and had two or three beers, if I remember right. I think I said to Jim “I don’t have a place to sleep or a place to go” because I was afraid to go home.
Mr.Hubert. You told that to Jim Martin?
Mr.Senator. I told that to Jim, and I believe—wait a minute now—I believe, I am not sure but I think I went to his house and he said he would put me up on the couch if I was afraid to go anywheres, which I was. From there on in I was afraid to go home.
Mr.Hubert. Why?
Mr.Senator. Why was I afraid to go home? Well, I was just scared, that is all.
Mr.Hubert. Of what?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know of what, but I was scared.
Mr.Hubert. Obviously you were scared that somebody might try to hurt you?
Mr.Senator. Very possibly, yes; on something like this. Now who or what I don’t know but that was the instinct I had. As a matter of fact I was scared for about 10 days after that.
Mr.Hubert. You mean you were scared for 10 days afterbeing——
Mr.Senator. In other words, for about 10 days I was afraid to sleep in thesame place twice. Who I was to fear I don’t know, but just the normal thing, I was afraid.
Mr.Hubert. And you say you slept at different places every night?
Mr.Senator. Yes; until I finally moved in with Jean.
Mr.Hubert. What were some of the places you slept in?
Mr.Senator. I slept at Jim’s a few times. I checked into an inexpensive hotel one time. I slept at another fellow’s apartment one time and then I finally went to Jean’s and stayed there, Jean Lauve. She said she would put me up because she and everybody else knew I was scared. You asked me what I feared. I don’t know who I feared or what I feared but Ijust——
Mr.Hubert. You honestly feared thatsomebody——
Mr.Senator. I was just in fear that is all which is a natural instinct in a situation such as this.
Mr.Hubert. I am not saying it is not natural.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. But I am trying to see if you had any idea in your own mind what you were afraid of. Now obviously you were afraid of being hurt.
Mr.Senator. Certainly I was afraid.
Mr.Hubert. Possibly being killed?
Mr.Senator. Yes; now of who or what I don’t know. It could be a crackpot. I don’t know what it could be.
Mr.Hubert. Did you give some consideration to the thought that whoever had been involved with the killing of the President might want to kill you?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know. I didn’t know who to fear. It was just a natural instinct. I would imagine anybody in the same situation would probably fear something. It was just a natural thing for a human being to do.
Mr.Hubert. I am not criticizing you, Mr. Senator; at all. I am just trying to find out the reason.
Mr.Senator. No; I had no reason or any particular thing. There was no reason for it.
Mr.Hubert. You mentioned one, that a crank might try to hurt you.
Mr.Senator. A crank might. Yes; I can’t measure what or who. It was just a fear.
Mr.Hubert. Isn’t it your thought that there might be some group of people who might want to hurt you?
Mr.Senator. I can’t say it was a group or what it is or who it may be.
Mr.Hubert. I understand that you don’t know of any group?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. But didn’t it cross your mind that there might be a group who would want to get rid of you for some reason or other?
Mr.Senator. This didn’t enter my mind that it was any group or anything of this nature here. All I knew is I had a fear. I don’t know who, but something. I was just afraid, that is all.
Mr.Hubert. Did you arm yourself in anyway?
Mr.Senator. No; I never armed myself in my life. The only gun I ever had is when they had me overseas. That is the only time I ever had a gun. I never carried a knife or a gun in my life.
Mr.Hubert. What did you do during these several days when you were in effect afraid? Did you move out in the open or did youstay——
Mr.Senator. I was afraid of the nighttime, not the daytime. In other words, I wanted—I didn’t want to be in an isolated place anywhere. It is not that I wasn’t out at night or daytime, which I was, but I didn’t want to be in an isolated place. In other words, I wouldn’t want to be walking down a lonely street or something like that because that would scare the life out of me. But around groups or something like that, I didn’t fear it that much. Now what I feared I don’t know, but it was just a natural thing I feel any individual would fear.
Mr.Hubert. Did you communicate that fear to Jim Martin?
Mr.Senator. Not only to him but to many of my friends. I said, “I’m just afraid.”
Mr.Hubert. It was for that reason that several of them put you up?
Mr.Senator. That is right. I told them I was afraid. They said “What areyou afraid of?” You know people say, “What are you afraid of?” I said, “I’m just scared, that is all”—and who wouldn’t be?
Mr.Hubert. So your friends also were asking you as I have been as to what would you be afraid of. That is a fact isn’t it?
Mr.Senator. Yes; they asked me, “What are you afraid of?” I said, “I don’t know, I’m just afraid, that is all.” I can’t say who I am afraid of. I don’t know who I am afraid of.
Mr.Hubert. I know that you wouldn’t know necessarily individuals, but you must have donesomething——
Mr.Senator. Or groups, individuals or groups as you mentioned. I can’t place my finger on it.
Mr.Hubert. But what I am suggesting to you is that your fear came from the thought that any individual or group that had anything to do with either the slaying of the President or the slaying of Oswald may have you in mind next?
Mr.Senator. No; my thoughts didn’t run that way. My thoughts were nothing but fear, and I didn’t have my mind on any groups or anything like that. I just didn’t know. It might be an individual crackpot walking the streets, who knows, he doesn’t know.
Mr.Hubert. Yes; I think that is a very understandable reason that you gave us as to the crackpot.
Mr.Senator. It could be. I don’t know what it could be.
Mr.Hubert. It went beyond that though, didn’t it?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Just your fear of a crackpot?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. That is all it was?
Mr.Senator. When you say “beyond that,” what do you mean “beyond that”?
Mr.Hubert. That your fear went beyond the mere fear that a crackpot would hurt you, your fear and your thought about the matter went to the point that some people other than a crackpotmight——
Mr.Senator. No; I didn’t think that way.
Mr.Hubert. Then are you willing to say that it was only your fear of a crackpot?
Mr.Senator. I use “crackpot” as one but I don’t know how to describe it. Who knows what it could be. It could be an individual walking the street, I don’t know. When I was scared I had no particular thing in mind. It was just I was scared, that is all.
Mr.Hubert. Did it ever occur to you during this period when you were frightened that Jack Ruby might have been set up by someone to kill Oswald?
Mr.Senator. Run that back again. Let me understand it.
Mr.Hubert. Did it ever occur to you at anytime after the shooting and when your fears began to develop that Jack Ruby might have been part of a plot to kill Oswald, and that there were others involved in the matter?
Mr.Senator. None whatsoever.
Mr.Hubert. That never occurred to you?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. And that was not any part of the basis of your fear?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. As I understand you then, you considered right from the start that this was an individual act on the part of Ruby, unconnected with anyone else?
Mr.Senator. Run your words again. I’ve got to follow you.
Mr.Hubert. I say as I understand it then your thoughts from the very beginning were that Ruby’s action was his own and that no one else was connected with it?
Mr.Senator. Did you say his actions was his own when this thing happened?
Mr.Hubert. Yes; and that you never considered that anyone else was in it at all but Jack Ruby?
Mr.Senator. No; definitely not. I never thought of anything such as that.