Mr.Senator. Once in a while—there was one girl who would always bring up, after she got through she would always bring up one fellow to do the twist. Now this wasn’t every night; only this one girl when she was on.
Mr.Griffin. Of Jack’s stripteasers?
Mr.Senator. Yes. As a matter of fact, I think I saw him do the twist once.
Mr.Griffin. That big, fat man?
Mr.Senator. Yes. But I can’t see the faces here. But I can’t help but recognize him.
Mr.Griffin. You can’t make out the faces in looking at those photographs?
Mr.Senator. This is an M.C.
Mr.Griffin. You are indicating the center photograph at the top?
Mr.Senator. Yes; this is an M.C. This looks like Tammi.
Mr.Griffin. Tammi True?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. The left-hand side in the third photograph?
Mr.Senator. Yes. As a matter of fact, are they all Tammi’s? Yes; that isTammi. This girl is not clear enough for me to see. I am certain I know her, but I can’t tell which one that is. That is about all I can see there. The majority are all customers.
Mr.Griffin. I take it you do not recognize any of the customers.
Mr.Senator. No, because they ain’t looking this way.
Mr.Griffin. Now let me hand you Exhibit 5303-B and ask you if you recognize any of the people in those photographs.
Mr.Senator. That is Tammi True.
Mr.Griffin. The stripper that is shown in those photographs is Tammi True?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recognize any of the customers?
Mr.Senator. This you can’t see at all. This you can’t see at all. I can’t tell from this. This is no way of seeing; this is no way of seeing. This you can’t see hardly.
Mr.Griffin. I hand you Exhibit 5303-C and ask you if you recognize any of the people in those photographs?
Mr.Senator. I know the stripper.
Mr.Griffin. Who is that?
Mr.Senator. That is Kathy Kay, but I can’t recognize anybody from the back.
Mr.Griffin. All right; now, Exhibit 5303-D; do you recognize anybody in there?
Mr.Senator. Yes; that is Little Lynn.
Mr.Griffin. The stripper is Little Lynn?
Mr.Senator. Yes; as I know her. You called her Karen. What is her last name?
Mr.Griffin. Bennett.
Mr.Senator. Bennett; yes. I don’t recognize anybody else here though.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know Little Lynn before you began to live with Jack Ruby the last time?
Mr.Senator. I don’t remember. All I know—see, I didn’t always come there every night, you know, but I walked in one night and I saw her there and, of course, I didn’t know who she was. She had already been there a few days, I think, or something like that, which I didn’t know. This is the one that, I guess you probably know, that came in with that gun with no firing pin. I guess you heard about that.
Mr.Griffin. It was at the trial, was it not?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Or one of the hearings.
Mr.Senator. Yes; she come in with this gun, which I believe didn’t have a firing pin, and, of course, there was no ammunition, but it was a blank gun. According to what I have heard around the station there, that she had switched bags and was in a hurry or something like that, and she didn’t even know the gun was in there, according to what I have heard.
Mr.Griffin. You haven’t talked to her about it?
Mr.Senator. No, no. When that happened, she was being searched just as you walk into the courtroom, and that is where they got her.
Mr.Griffin. Now, would you look at Exhibit 5303-E and tell me if you recognize anybody in there?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I know the stripper.
Mr.Griffin. Who is that?
Mr.Senator. Joy Dale. The people, no. They are all facing the other way. That is why I can’t recognize anybody.
Mr.Griffin. Now look at Exhibit 5303-F and tell me if you recognize anybody in there?
Mr.Senator. This is Kathy Kay.
Mr.Griffin. The stripper is Kathy Kay?
Mr.Senator. Kathy Kay, and this is Joy on this side.
Mr.Griffin. Joy Dale on the right-hand side, a stripper?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And Kathy Kay on the left?
Mr.Senator. This is that big heavy-set fellow which I can tell. I don’t know his name.
Mr.Griffin. The top picture in the center?
Mr.Senator. Yes. And the cocktail waitress.
Mr.Griffin. Who is the cocktail waitress?
Mr.Senator. Bonnie something. I don’t know her last name.
Mr.Griffin. Is she shown in the picture in the lower right-hand side?
Mr.Senator. Bonnie. I don’t know her last name.
Mr.Griffin. But you don’t recognize anybody else?
Mr.Senator. Let me see. No.
Mr.Griffin. Now I hand you Exhibit 5303-G. Do you recognize anybody in there?
Mr.Senator. This is Kathy Kay, the stripper. Excuse me, not Kathy Kay. This is Tammi True. That is an error. But I can’t see no faces there.
Mr.Griffin. Let me hand you Exhibit 5303-H. Other than the strippers, do you recognize any of the other people in those pictures?
Mr.Senator. You don’t want the strippers, right?
Mr.Griffin. That is right.
Mr.Senator. I am looking for the face here but I can’t see it. This one I can’t see the face well. Whether I know him or not, I don’t think so but I just can’t see their face well.
Mr.Griffin. Now Exhibit 5303-I, other than the stripper and the fat man who is shown there, do you recognize any of the people?
Mr.Senator. No; I don’t.
Mr.Griffin. All right, Exhibit 5303-J, other than the entertainers, do you recognize any of the people?
Mr.Senator. I can tell that this is Tammi True from the back. No, no, I don’t. The M.C. I don’t know him.
Mr.Griffin. Who is the M.C.?
Mr.Senator. I don’t even know his name. He was only there a short while, this particular one here.
Mr.Griffin. Let me give you Exhibit 5303-K.
Mr.Senator. Where did you get this good picture?
Mr.Griffin. Do you recognize any of the people shown there?
Mr.Senator. That is the cocktail waitress. I can’t distinguished who it is. This sort of looks like Jack, but I am not sure.
Mr.Griffin. You are pointingto——
Mr.Senator. But I am not sure. I’ll tell you, I am looking at the head because it is sort of baldish.
Mr.Griffin. But the people in the foreground in that picture, you don’t recognize any of them?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. All right, Exhibit 5303-L. Other than Jack Ruby, do you recognize anybody in there?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Let me hand you Exhibit 5300-A and ask you if you recognize any of the people in that picture other than Jack Ruby?
Mr.Senator. Kathy Kay.
Mr.Griffin. That is the blonde on Jack Ruby’s right, or left as you look at the picture?
Mr.Senator. This is a cocktail waitress. Her name is Alice.
Mr.Griffin. The girl on Jack Ruby’s left, Jack’s left but the right side of the picture?
Mr.Senator. Alice, I don’t remember her last name.
Mr.Griffin. How long had Alice worked for Jack?
Mr.Senator. I would say on and off for maybe a year and a half or two, but I am not sure.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack date Alice?
Mr.Senator. Not to my knowledge.
Mr.Griffin. Did Alice every solicit up at Jack’s apartment?
Mr.Senator. I think she came there once for I think it was a job interference. I think for some reason, I don’t know what it was because I didn’t stay, butshe was there once. She came there one afternoon. I don’t know what happened.
Mr.Griffin. Let me hand you Exhibit 5301-D. Do you recognize any of the girls in that picture?
Mr.Senator. This is Joy Dale on the left and this is Little Lynn.
Mr.Griffin. On the right?
Mr.Senator. Right.
Mr.Griffin. That is on the right of the picture as you look at the picture?
Mr.Senator. Yes: Little Lynn on the right.
Mr.Griffin. What I am going to do, Mr. Senator, I am going to hand you a set of photographs, 5306-A and 5306-B. These photographs are pictures of memoranda that were made at one time or another. Let me ask you to look at those. First, I will ask you a general question about these memoranda.
Do you ever recall Jack Ruby having any memoranda pads similar to those that are shown in those photographs?
Mr.Senator. No; with him, everything went on a piece of paper, it don’t matter what type it was. He would keep his papers and notes, everything else like he kept his money, all over.
Mr.Griffin. Did he keep some of his papers and notes at home?
Mr.Senator. It could be at the office or at home because he wasn’t immaculate in where he kept things, things of that nature there. It would lay here, lay there, lay in the office, wherever it laid. That is the way he was.
Mr.Griffin. Did he have any memoranda pads such as this?
Mr.Senator. Not that I know of. I can’t say yes or no, but not to my knowledge that I know of.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have occasion to take messages for him at home?
Mr.Senator. Very seldom if the phone rang and all I would do is write it on whatever piece of paper it might be. No particular paper, sometimes even on a newspaper, whatever it was, whatever is close by. I have seen those go on pieces of paper this big even, you know. It is just no particular type piece of paper with him.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know who Nancy Barker might have been?
Mr.Senator. No; it could have been maybe somebody calling for a job. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know who Joyce Harvey was?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know who Linda Bumwalt was?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Emma Ship?
Mr.Senator. No; the only thing possibly could happen, I may know somebody by face maybe but not by name. This could be. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know Jean Bordon?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know Archie Esquavill? Did you ever hear of him?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever hear of a person named T. E. Smith?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Now I am going to hand you a series of photographs which are marked Exhibits 5305-A to 5305-S. These are photographs of a notebook which had a cover which said “Aladdin,” and I ask you first of all if you have ever seen this Aladdin notebook?
Mr.Senator. I don’t think I have. I mean, his things that he kept in his pocket, I assume that is it.
Mr.Griffin. Would you look through those photographs and look through all of them, and I am going to ask you a general question whether you recognize that notebook?
Mr.Senator. So far this stuff I have never seen, though I do know he had books, you know, notebooks, but I have never seen the insides of them.
Mr.Griffin. Are you able to read what is on those pages?
Mr.Senator. Some yes and some no.
Mr.Griffin. I will ask you the question again: Do you ever recall having seen this particular notebook?
Mr.Senator. I know he had a book. Now, I don’t know about the cover, butI know he had a book. As a matter of fact, I think he had two or three of them. But I am not sure of the cover part of it, but I do know that he had a notebook of some sort.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to hand you Exhibit 5305-B, which purports to be a photograph of a page of that notebook. Can you read the names on there?
Mr.Senator. Leonard, isn’t that right? That is Leonard.
Mr.Griffin. I just want to know if you have difficulty reading them.
Mr.Senator. Frank Barber.
Mr.Griffin. I take it you do have some difficulty reading the names.
Mr.Senator. Frank Bourber or Barber.
Mr.Griffin. Let me read the names to you and ask you if you recognize any of them.
Mr.Hubert. May I make this suggestion?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Senator. I know some of the names on there.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recognize the handwriting on that page?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recognize Jack Ruby’s handwriting?
Mr.Senator. It probably could be Jack’s, I guess.
Mr.Griffin. But would you recognize Jack’s handwriting?
Mr.Senator. I don’t think, offhand, I would, but I assume these probably are Jack’s handwritings, I guess.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you, did you know Frank Barber?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever hear Jack speak or did you know Milt Jaffe?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know of any friend Jack had named Barney?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. How about Pauline?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know Pauline Hall?
Mr.Senator. Now, you may ask me some names. I may know the face but I may not recognize the name.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know any people that worked at the Vegas Club?
Mr.Senator. Oh, Pauline Hall; yes, I do. I am glad you mentioned that. Pauline worked at times at the Vegas Club, if that is her last name. I am not sure. Now, I know her first name was Pauline, so it might be Pauline Hall, if that is her last name, but she worked at the Vegas Club.
Mr.Griffin. You say she worked there at times?
Mr.Senator. Yes; not steady. I wouldn’t say she worked there steady. There were times I walked in there with Jack at night on a weekend I have seen her working, and then there are other times I haven’t seen her working.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know Billy Brook?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Bobbie Patterson?
Mr.Senator. I think I have heard of that name, but I can’t think who it is. I think I have heard of that name. I think I have heard of that name Bobbie Patterson, but I can’t refresh my mind. It seems I have heard that name.
Mr.Griffin. Howard Foster?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Sammy Tucker?
Mr.Senator. No. Would it be easier, you know, what you want to do, would it be easier if I could pick up the ones I knew?
Mr.Griffin. If you could read them. Could you go through there and pick out the ones you know, and indicate to me if there are any on there you can’t read.
Mr.Senator. What is this? Is this Goody?
Mr.Griffin. It looks like Grady to me, but I am not sure.
Mr.Senator. Fred Fillman, I don’t know who he is. You want me to sound out the names, don’t you?
Mr.Griffin. Just comment on the ones you recognize.
Mr.Senator. What does this say? It looks like Rita.
Mr.Griffin. It looks like Ruth Shay.
Mr.Hubert. You had better make reference to the document you are talking about. Let the record show the comments of the witness are with reference to Exhibit 5305-F.
Mr.Senator. Here is one that says Pauline. That may be Pauline Hall, I don’t know. I have heard that name. I don’t know who she is.
Mr.Griffin. What name are you talking about?
Mr.Senator. Tex DeLacy.
Mr.Griffin. Take a look at 5305-G and tell me if you recognize the name R. T. Brown on there.
Mr.Senator. No; I don’t know who that is.
Mr.Griffin. Let me hand you 5305-H.
Mr.Senator. There is no other names on there.
Mr.Griffin. That is right. 5305-H, do you recognize any of the names on there?
Mr.Senator. What is that, Joseph Rossi?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. I don’t know him. The rest are just figurations here, numbers or moneys.
Mr.Griffin. Take a look at 5305-I. There is the name Tom Palmer.
Mr.Senator. Tom Palmer, I think he is the booking agent in Dallas. In other words, he books. Not the booking agent. I have got to find out how to classify him now.
Mr.Griffin. Tell us what he does.
Mr.Senator. He is with, I think he is with AGVA.
Mr.Griffin. And that is the American Guild of Variety Artists?
Mr.Senator. Yes. I believe he has an office in Dallas. Let me see how he is classified. How do you classify him? I guess he has something to do with the acts, you know, the working hours, and the pay.
Mr.Griffin. Of the entertainers?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Have you met Tom Palmer?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Where have you met him?
Mr.Senator. I have seen him in the Carousel, or occasionally on the street, or something like that.
Mr.Griffin. About how many different occasions would you say you have met him?
Mr.Senator. Oh, I have seen him maybe a dozen times or so, maybe more. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Did you first meet him through Jack Ruby?
Mr.Senator. Yes; because when he came up there, he always went to Jack, you know. I mean, he had no occasion to come to me or anything of that nature, but he always came to Jack.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know of any particular dealings Jack had with him in the few weeks before Oswald was shot?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Let me hand you Exhibit 5305-J, and I will ask you if you recognize any of the names on there.
Mr.Senator. What is this, Grace Wilkins, the first one? Is that what that says? I don’t know her, but is that what it says?
Mr.Griffin. It looks like Grace Wilkins; yes. Do you recognize that name?
Mr.Senator. No. And Woodruff, I don’t know who that is. But, mind you, I want you to bear in mind I may know these people and don’t know the names. I may know them if I see their face.
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. J. B. Gruber, I don’t know who he is.
Mr.Griffin. I will hand you Exhibit 5305-K and ask you if you recognize any of the names on there.
Mr.Senator. KLIF radio station.
Mr.Griffin. KLIF?
Mr.Senator. Yes. I have heard of the name Harrigan. I don’t know if Harrigan is KLIF, I am not sure. It says diskjockey. I knew he was something like that.
Mr.Griffin. Have you met him?
Mr.Senator. I don’t think I have ever met him, but I have heard of that name.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack talk to you about him?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know how I heard of it. Very possibly he may have, but I have heard the name. I know I have heard the name before. I don’t know who this other is. I believe it says Chuck Dunnaway.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recognize that name?
Mr.Senator. No; I am not familiar with these. I am not familiar with these.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know Alex Gruber?
Mr.Senator. No. As I say, I may know him by face, but I am not familiar with the name.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to hand you Exhibit 5305-M and ask you if you recognize the names on there. I might state for the record that 5305-L is a duplicate of 5305-K, and that is why I didn’t hand it to the witness.
Mr.Senator. Here it says Nick Turman. The reason I say that, I happen to know somebody by the name of Buddy Turman.
Mr.Griffin. Who is Buddy Turman?
Mr.Senator. Buddy Turman, I believe, is out on the West Coast. He used to be the light heavyweight or heavyweight champion of Texas, a real fine fellow. That is why I say I don’t know Nick.
Mr.Griffin. Now, was he a friend of Jack’s?
Mr.Senator. Yes, he was of Jack’s sure.
Mr.Griffin. Did you meet Turman through Jack?
Mr.Senator. Oh, yes.
Mr.Griffin. Through Jack?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know if I met Turman through Jack. No, I met him some other place. I met him some other place. I can’t think where I met him, but I didn’t meet him through Jack, but I have seen him at Jack’s place. As a matter of fact, he has helped Jack every now and then. This Nick Turman, I don’t know if this is related to him or what it is. I am not familiar with the name Nick. You have got a Norma here, and I know a name Norma, and I can’t place it; I wonder if this is somebody who ever worked for him, Norma.
Mr.Griffin. Did Buddy Turman have any particular dealings, that you know of, with Jack Ruby in the last month or sobefore——
Mr.Senator. Oh, Buddy has been gone quite a while. He went to the West Coast. As a matter of fact, the last time I saw Buddy he said he was going to the West Coast to train, because from there—now I don’t know if it ever materialized—from there he was going to England to fight. I can’t think of that heavyweight fighter.
Mr.Griffin. Bruce Wilcox?
Mr.Senator. No. Name a couple more. This one fighter didn’t fight too long ago. You may have seen him on TV. He is the type that fights very awkward, and sort of a slap, like. Do you remember who that is?
Mr.Griffin. No, I don’t. Now, did Jack Ruby have an interest in prizefighting?
Mr.Senator. No. I would say that he liked the fights. He liked to watch them.
Mr.Griffin. But he never expressed any particular interest to you?
Mr.Senator. No, but he liked to watch the fights.
Mr.Griffin. Did he ever tell you about any interest he had in the fight game when he was a younger man?
Mr.Senator. I know that he used to carry Barney Ross’ bag around. How young he was or what age, in Chicago, I don’t remember. But I know it was as a youngster.
I assume this first name, Tammi, is Tammi True, and I assume the other one is Little Lynn; right? These are only first names. This says Tammi, so I assume that must be Tammi True, and Lynn, that might be Little Lynn.
Wait; I haven’t gone through the rest. There is a Dick Lenard there, and I think this man is a booking agency. I think he is.
Mr.Griffin. For entertainers?
Mr.Senator. Yes, if it is the same Dick Lenard. I don’t know the rest of them.
Mr.Griffin. I will hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 5305-N, and ask you to look at the names on there and tell us if you recognize any of them.
Mr.Senator. Yes; this is a Murray Wynn, who owns, I assume, because it says The Smoker’s Lounge, and I know the place, but I never knew his last name. I assume it is the right one. He owns a tobacco and pipe store.
Mr.Griffin. What dealings did Jack have with him?
Mr.Senator. None that I know of.
Mr.Griffin. Jack didn’t smoke, did he?
Mr.Senator. No. He probably just met him like he meets a lot of people, I assume. I have heard of this Grant Koch. I have heard of the name, but I don’t know who he is. It is a name I remember hearing at one time or another; and I don’t know who this Kierney Aikens is. I don’t know him.
Mr.Griffin. A-i-k-e-n-s?
Mr.Senator. A-i-k-e-n. I don’t who he is. What does this say here? This is pretty hard to read. Do you see this one right here?
Mr.Griffin. It looks like Donald Wiley. Do you recognize that name?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. I will read you the other names on here. Pauline Foch.
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Etheridge?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Ray Hawkins?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Sue Blake?
Mr.Senator. No; I don’t know her.
Mr.Griffin. I am not going to hand you the next exhibit, which is 5305-O, because there are no names written on there of any persons. And I am not going to hand you Exhibit 5305-P. I will take that back. I will hand you that. There is a name “Bishop” written there. Does that name mean anything to you?
Mr.Senator. I think I have heard of the name, but I don’t know who it is. I don’t know what that is. I believe I have somewheres heard of that name.
Mr.Griffin. Now, I am going to read to you from Exhibit 5305-Q, and tell me if you recognize any of these names. Monte?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Mike Shore?
Mr.Senator. Mike Shore? Is there an address or something that goes with it?
Mr.Griffin. No.
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Dr. Uhlevitch?
Mr.Senator. Does it say what he is?
Mr.Griffin. No.
Mr.Senator. Is he local, Dallas?
Mr.Griffin. I presume so.
Mr.Senator. What is the exchange?
Mr.Griffin. It doesn’t give an exchange, just the name.
Mr.Senator. Uhlevitch?
Mr.Griffin. Do you recognize that name?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Stanley Kaufman?
Mr.Senator. Yes; he is a lawyer.
Mr.Griffin. Had you met him?
Mr.Senator. No; I have never met him, but I know who he is.
Mr.Griffin. Have you talked to Jack about him or has Jack talked to you about him?
Mr.Senator. No; he is, I believe, a civil attorney, and I know that Jack has always called him for conferences of some nature or another, whatever it may be, but Iwasn’t——
Mr.Griffin. Was he a personal friend of Jack’s?
Mr.Senator. I assume that he has known Jack for some time. Now, how personal, I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Do you have any idea whether Jack was as close to Kaufman as you were to Jim Martin, for example?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know, but I know that—as a matter of fact, even now during the trial, trying to get the new trial now, I know that they keep in contact with Kaufman. So I don’t know what you want to actually call close, you know. I can’t tell you what close is.
Mr.Griffin. How about John Hilt?
Mr.Senator. I never heard of that name.
Mr.Griffin. Dick Shepard?
Mr.Senator. No; I don’t know that, either.
Mr.Griffin. Abe Klinman?
Mr.Senator. Abe Klinman is a CPA. I know him.
Mr.Griffin. Did he do work for Jack?
Mr.Senator. He has done some work for Jack.
Mr.Griffin. Jerry Wilson?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know that name.
Mr.Griffin. Mike Riaf?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Tom Palmer’s name is on here, but you have talked about that.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Ed Pullman?
Mr.Senator. Ed Pullman; yes. Ed Pullman; his wife had worked for Jack for a short spell as a cocktail waitress. She is an elderly woman. Ed Pullman, he is a man who thinks up gadgets, you know. I don’t know how to describe it. He is an idea man.
Mr.Griffin. A promoter?
Mr.Senator. Things that he makes.
Mr.Griffin. An inventor?
Mr.Senator. Yes; in that classification.
Mr.Griffin. And did Jack have any business dealings with Ed Pullman?
Mr.Senator. The only thing is—no; no business dealings. The only thing is he had a show once, Ed Pullman, like a market show—you know what I mean, sort of an exhibit like where people come to look—exhibits.
Mr.Griffin. What kind of things did he exhibit?
Mr.Senator. Things that he had made, to show and see what he could do with them. In other words, he wasn’t manufacturing them, but he had already made these things.
Mr.Griffin. Where was he exhibiting these items?
Mr.Senator. At a place called Market Hall.
Mr.Griffin. Did EdPullman——
Mr.Senator. Ed Pullman exhibited a thing for him that Jack was trying to promote.
Mr.Griffin. What was that?
Mr.Senator. This is what they call—what do they call the little thing? It is a little twistaboard. It is a little square twistaboard, and you get on it and it moves around like this.
Mr.Griffin. It is a weight reducer, like?
Mr.Senator. Yes; a twister.
Mr.Griffin. Now, how long had Jack Ruby been promoting this twistboard?
Mr.Senator. It never came to the promotion part. I would assume that he fooled around with it for about a month, I guess, something like that, as a rough guess. In other words, he was going to buy them. I think somebody was going to make them for him, and he was going to try and sell them.
Mr.Griffin. And for a month, what would this month cover, from the 1st of November to the time that he shot Oswald, or before the 1st of November?
Mr.Senator. No; it was either September or October, somewheres in there. I will have to take it to the extension of these 2 months.
Mr.Griffin. Did it fall through somewhere along the line? Did he lose interest in it, or something?
Mr.Senator. It never materialized. In other words, look, he had competition because there was one already out.
Mr.Griffin. Who designed this twistboard?
Mr.Senator. I think it was manufactured by somebody in, I don’t know the name of the place, in Fort Worth.
Mr.Griffin. Who else was associated with Jack in the twistboard project?
Mr.Senator. Nobody. This is something that never really got off the ground. See, I think Jack had—what was it—maybe four or five or six dozen of the things. I just don’t remember. But it never got off the ground.
Mr.Griffin. He bought these, and then what was he going to do with them?
Mr.Senator. He was going to have them manufactured to resell.
Mr.Griffin. Did he buy them from some place other than Fort Worth, or from Fort Worth?
Mr.Senator. I am not sure whether he bought them from Fort Worth or some place else. I don’t know just where he got them from.
Mr.Griffin. What kind of material were they made out of?
Mr.Senator. It was a compressed—I don’t know what you would call it—it was a compressed thing. In other words, let me say that it was about this size here.
Mr.Griffin. You are indicating about a foot long?
Mr.Senator. Approximately about a foot square.
Mr.Griffin. A foot square?
Mr.Senator. Approximately about a foot square, and on the bottom of it—this is a compressed thing. I don’t know if you call it a compressed board, or what you call it. There was a compression. Then on the bottom of it it had, I believe, a steel roller with ballbearings in it, on the bottom, so the thing could revolve. Under that was another piece of staple, where it was staple. In other words, it had to hold the weight of an individual.
Mr.Griffin. This was something that you would lean up against?
Mr.Senator. No, no. It was on the floor, and you just got on it like that, and you go—I am not a good exhibit for a twister.
Mr.Griffin. In other words, you would stand on this board?
Mr.Senator. Yes, you would stand on it.
Mr.Griffin. You wouldn’t put it up against your back, or anything?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. You would stand on it?
Mr.Senator. Strictly stand on it, and it was a novelty.
Mr.Griffin. And the bottom part would remain stationary?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And the other part would swivel as you moved on it?
Mr.Senator. That is right. In other words, instead of going in the twist, this thing did it for you. In other words, you revolved and, of course, this was classified as an exerciser, or something of that nature. As I say, it never got off the ground.
Mr.Griffin. To your knowledge, nobody else was involved in the promotion of it with Jack?
Mr.Senator. No; definitely not; no.
Mr.Griffin. How about John Newman? Do you recognize that name?
Mr.Senator. John Newman works for the Herald or the Times, the Herald or the News. He works for either the Dallas Morning News—I forgot now—or the Herald.
Mr.Griffin. How do you happen to know him?
Mr.Senator. I met him on occasion when Jack used to go up there to place an ad once in a while, when I was living with him in 1962, you know, I went up there with him.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever see Newman at the Carousel Club?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know if I have or not. I just don’t remember. I couldn’t say yes or couldn’t say no. I just don’t remember.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to read to you the names that are on Exhibit 5305-R. Bill Petty. Do you recognize that name?
Mr.Senator. I think I have heard of that name, but don’t know who it is.
Mr.Griffin. Bill Cantrell?
Mr.Senator. No; I don’t know him.
Mr.Griffin. Gladys?
Mr.Senator. Gladys who?
Mr.Griffin. That is all it says.
Mr.Senator. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. J. B. Herred?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know him.
Mr.Griffin. Mrs. Oscar Newman?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know her.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to read to you the names that are on Exhibit 5305-S. Gloria Rettig?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know her.
Mr.Griffin. Little Lynn you have mentioned.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Vicky Williams?
Mr.Senator. Vicky Williams; I don’t know that name.
Mr.Griffin. That concludes the photographs that pertain to the Aladdin notebook. I am going to hand you what has been marked for identification as Exhibit 5309-A, and this is a Xeroxed copy of another notebook that has on the front cover, “This is a Robinson reminder. Jot it down. Do It. Tear it. Live notes only.”
I am going to hand you this and ask you to tell me, first of all, go through it and tell me if you remember ever seeing that notebook.
Mr.Senator. I think I have seen the cover of this. These are little tear things out, aren’t they, you tear them out?
Mr.Griffin. You are referring to what appears to be perforated segments.
Mr.Senator. Isn’t that what it is? That is what it looks like.
Mr.Griffin. On the front page. I believe that is right.
Mr.Senator. I have heard of the name Sue Pepper.
Mr.Griffin. Now, you are looking at the first page of that notebook?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And you are going to identify the names?
Mr.Senator. I have heard of the name. I don’t know who it is. A lot of the names I heard, but I just don’t know who they are. Does this say Jack Hanover? This is a little hard to read.
Mr.Griffin. Yanover, I think.
Mr.Senator. Carroll Walker I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know a Jack Hanover?
Mr.Senator. No. I don’t know the balance of these in here.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recognize the handwriting on that page?
Mr.Senator. I think it is Jack’s. I assume it is. I am not sure, but I assume it is. It all looks like the same. I have seen the cover of a book like this. Now, the insides of it I have never seen, but I think I have seen it on him.
Mr.Griffin. Now, you are turning to the next page. Does that have a small numeral down at the bottom of that page? It has numeral 3. It is actually the second page on which there is any writing.
Mr.Senator. Wally what?
Mr.Griffin. Is that Rack—R-a-c-k? Do you know a Wally Rack?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know anything about the Doctors Club?
Mr.Senator. The Doctors Club?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. I never knew there was a Doctors Club in Dallas. What is Linda’s last name?
Mr.Griffin. It lookslike——
Mr.Senator. Kuhox?
Mr.Griffin. Kuhox.
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Does anything like that ring a bell?
Mr.Senator. No. I don’t know anybody here. He has some first names here. I don’t know what they mean. Brenda and Angie.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recognize any of those first names?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Let’s turn to the page that is numbered 4.
Mr.Senator. I know Bill Willis. Bill Willis was the drummer in the band at the Carousel Club. Tom Palmer is here again.
Mr.Griffin. You talked about him.
Mr.Senator. Yes. Kathy Kay is a stripper. Andy is the boy. I assume that is Andy.
Mr.Griffin. Andy Armstrong?
Mr.Senator. Yes. I assume the first name Kathy is Kathy Kay; right?
Mr.Griffin. I don’t know.
Mr.Senator. That is what I think it is anyhow. I don’t know. This girl, I never knew her last name, but this could have been a former stripper of some time back, this Lauri.
Mr.Griffin. Lauri?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Does Lauri have a last name?
Mr.Senator. There is a last name here, but I don’t know who.
Mr.Griffin. What is the last name?
Mr.Senator. Womack, W-o-m-a-c-k. I knew a Lauri, I think, that was a stripper for him for a while. I think it was last summer if I am not mistaken, or something like that. Russ Knight.
Mr.Griffin. K-n-i-g-h-t?
Mr.Senator. He is with a radio station, but I can’t think which one.
Mr.Griffin. Have you met him?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I knew Russ.
Mr.Griffin. Where have you met him?
Mr.Senator. I have met him—I have seen him at the bowling alley when we used to go up there at night. I have seen him on rare occasions when he would come down to the Carousel. He was, I guess you would call him, a disc jockey.
Mr.Griffin. Who did you bowl with?
Mr.Senator. Sometimes people—very seldom, mind you, very seldom—but sometimes people from the club which was very seldom. As a matter of fact, I only bowled one time, I believe. It wears me out particularly. But very seldom.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack bowl frequently?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did he bowl more than you did?
Mr.Senator. Maybe a little more. I’ll tell you, this particular alley is a tremendous place in Dallas, but we always went up there to eat, on occasions, when we did go. It was always we would go up there to eat. They had a big restaurant there.
Mr.Griffin. What eating places did Jack frequent?
Mr.Senator. A lot of times when he went out, the majority of the times when he went out I wasn’t with him when he went out to eat. But he has been to—of course, it probably pertains to the time of day or night, you know, but he ate in the waffle shops, he ate at—wait; it will come to me in a minute. There is a couple on Commerce just above the Adolphus Hotel. What in the world is the name of it?
Mr.Griffin. The Egyptian Lounge?
Mr.Senator. He has ate at the Egyptian Lounge, but there is a couple in the downtown area.
Mr.Griffin. That he ate at regularly, I take it?
Mr.Senator. It is not, particularly. I can’t say regularly. I don’t know. Let me say he just varies the place. He may want to try certain foods, I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack visit the Dallas Cabana?
Mr.Senator. Dallas Cabana? What in the world is the Dallas Cabana?
Mr.Griffin. The Cabana Motel.
Mr.Senator. The Cabana?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. Yes; Jack has been down there.
Mr.Griffin. Does he have friends there?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know if he has friends there or not. He certainly probablydoes know some people there. Yes; there is one chap he knew there that I know for sure, and I think he was the assistant, if he is still there, was the assistant manager. There is Ralph Paul. Of course, I am certain you have heard of his name before, Ralph Paul.
Mr.Griffin. Yes; Ralph we talked about earlier. How often would Jack see Ralph?
Mr.Senator. Ralph would come up, I would probably say he would probably come up maybe two or three times a week, about like that.
Mr.Griffin. Would they telephone each other during the week also?
Mr.Senator. I would probably say they have. I mean, not that I was always around when he did, if he did telephone him, but I am certain there were telephone calls.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever have any occasion to telephone Ralph Paul?
Mr.Senator. Did I ever have occasion?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. I called him, yes; I called him a couple of times. The reason I called him, I had no car, I had to go down and see him once in a while, a free lunch. He has got this place in Arlington, if you know where Arlington is, called the Bullpen. It is one of these barbecue places.
Mr.Griffin. Did you talk to Ralph Paul on the weekend of the 22d, 23d, and 24th of November?
Mr.Senator. By phone?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. Not that I know of.
Mr.Griffin. How about in person?
Mr.Senator. It may have been possible that I may have seen him. I just don’t recall if I have seen him on that weekend. I can’t say yes or no, but it may have been possible that I may have seen him at the club. Oh, no; the club wasn’t even open.
Mr.Griffin. This was after the President was killed?
Mr.Senator. Yes; no, I don’t think I did. I don’t think I have seen him.
Mr.Griffin. You seem to have some recollection, though, that you might have.
Mr.Senator. No; let’s see. No; I saw him, I think the first time I saw him was, it may have been, I would say within the week. I can’t name a date or a day. But I will say within the week after the Ruby shooting up at the Carousel. That is about the best that I can recollect on that.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall talking to Little Lynn at any time on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, November 22, 23, or 24?
Mr.Senator. No; I didn’t even see her.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know her husband?
Mr.Senator. No; but I have seen him—if it is her husband—sort of a blond. I will tell you where I have seen him. I saw him the day of that trial when she was carrying that gun, he come up with her, if it is her husband or if it is her boy friend, I don’t know what.
The reason I say that, because to the best of my knowledge I don’t even know if she wore a marriage band. But I have seen him. I think he is sort of a blondish-haired fellow. I don’t even know his name. I am through with this. Do you want the next page, page 6?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; go ahead.
Mr.Senator. There is a Joe Slayton here. Of course, Joe Slayton—this Joe Slayton, I know him by sight but I don’t know him by conversation. Wally Weston, he was an MC of his. I know this guy only by reading about him, Earl Wilson, the New York Post. I don’t know him. I believe this Tony Turner here, this name is a stripper.
Mr.Griffin. T-o-n-i?
Mr.Senator. T-o-n-y it says here.
Mr.Griffin. You think that is a stripper?
Mr.Senator. Tony Turner is T-o-n-i. I think that is how she spells her name. This says Tony, T-o-n-y, Turner. It could be a man. I don’t know. I am only guessing at this one here. Tammi True. I know her. This is a stripper. Then there is Kay here. I don’t know if that is Kathy Kay, or what it is. That is allI know on this one. One here says Porter. I don’t know what that is. I don’t know what that means, if that is a porter, or what it is.
Mr.Griffin. I don’t know, either. How about page 7? Let me just read off the names and see if you recognize them. Phil Olian?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Wendy Knight?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Wanda?
Mr.Senator. Just a girl’s name?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. I think, I am not sure now; I think he had a cocktail waitress by the name of Wanda, if I am not mistaken, at one time. I am not sure.
Mr.Griffin. Janice Anderson
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Ann Petta?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. L. H. McIntyre?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Jim Brown?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Carlos Camorgo?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know of any acquaintances Jack had in Mexico City?
Mr.Senator. Where?
Mr.Griffin. In Mexico City. Did you know of any acquaintances he had in Mexico City?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know of any trips that Jack took?
Mr.Senator. To Mexico City?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. Not while I knew him.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know of any foreign trips that he has taken?
Mr.Senator. No, but I have heard at some time that he went to Cuba. Now, that is before my relation with him.
Mr.Griffin. Did you hear this from Jack?
Mr.Senator. No. I have heard it, I don’t know if I read it in the newspapers or where I read it, but I know I heard it at one time.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack ever talk to you about Cuba at all?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. How about someone named Billie?
Mr.Senator. B-i-l-l-i-e?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. Is that a man or a woman?
Mr.Griffin. I don’t know.
Mr.Senator. Is there a telephone number?
Mr.Griffin. FE 9-7914? Toni Rebel?
Mr.Senator. I think that is a stripper.
Mr.Griffin. Bill Towney? Bill Towney, WH 2-8129?
Mr.Senator. Bill Towney?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Shirley Nole?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Margo?
Mr.Senator. Let me place this Margo. This is a cocktail waitress that he had, if it is here. It is a cocktail waitress that he had at one time.
Mr.Griffin. Kitty Keel?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Mary Martin?
Mr.Senator. It sounds like the one from Hollywood. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Ethel A. Piersol?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Gail Thompson?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Sam George?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. Margie?
Mr.Senator. Margie was a cocktail waitress that he had, if it is the same one.
Mr.Griffin. Peggy Steel?