Mrs.Rich. By plane; American Airlines.
Mr.Hubert. Did you notice anything about being tailed in that regard?
Mrs.Rich. I didn’t notice. I don’t think I was. I left my house in my own car and drove to North Quincy, where I was subsequently picked up by Mr. Milton of the Secret Service and taken directly to the airport, and he stayed with me until I left. I was subsequently met here by Bill something-or-other of the Secret Service. Now, as I say, this may or may not—quite frankly, I don’t think it does have any bearing on this. But I think it is something entirelydifferent. I think it has to do with the names of some bookmakers and a couple of abortionists I turned in to the district attorney in Boston.
Mr.Hubert. Now, you mentioned to me earlier that this card which has been identified as Exhibit No. 3 is a card that is usually issued—am I not right—that it is a card usually issued under the requirements of California law to a person who has got a record; is that correct?
Mrs.Rich. No; that is not correct. No. 1, the card is obsolete. That is why it was back-dated. It was merely a pawnshop identification card.
Mr.Hubert. I think you mentioned that it would establish your status in someway for, I think you used the word, obvious purposes. What would this card do in connection with the work that you were supposed to do?
Mrs.Rich. Well, the card in itself, nothing. It would prove I was there when I said I was, because I had to attend associations with certain people, who at that time were safely tucked away, but at the time I was supposedly supposed to be there they were not—I was supposedly supposed to have worked for these people. If I recall correctly I said that I have a police record under that same name of Julie Anne Cody.
Mr.Hubert. And that name—that police record—is a fictitious record in the sense that the offenses listed under the name of Julie Anne Cody really did not ever occur.
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. Do you have any record under your right name?
Mrs.Rich. Yes, I do.
Mr.Hubert. What is that?
Mrs.Rich. That is in Brookline, Mass., and it is a record for prostitution.
Mr.Hubert. Is that fictitious?
Mrs.Rich. That is not.
Mr.Hubert. Is that the only record you have?
Mrs.Rich. That’s correct—that I know of.
Mr.Hubert. Well, I assume that you would know all the records you have.
Mrs.Rich. Well, when I say that, I was picked up twice in Dallas and both times the charges were dropped—as far as I know. That is what Sy Victorson told me.
Mr.Hubert. Were you ever charged?
Mrs.Rich. Not that I know of.
Mr.Hubert. Were you ever booked?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t believe so.
Mr.Hubert. But you were arrested.
Mrs.Rich. Yes. One time I was in jail for a couple of hours, the other time 5 hours, because they could not get hold of Sy, who was on the golf course.
Mr.Hubert. Were you told why you were being arrested?
Mrs.Rich. I was arrested for investigation of vag,narcotics——
Mr.Hubert. Of what?
Mrs.Rich. Vag—vagrancy. Narcotics, prostitution, and anything else they could dream up. This is very shortly after I had threatened to go and bring suit against Mr. Ruby. I was told I might find the climate outside of Dallas a little more to my liking if I didn’t take the advice of the police department.
Mr.Hubert. Who told you that?
Mrs.Rich. The time I went down and wanted to bring charges against Ruby for assault and battery, I was told not to, and at that time I was also advised—I was not told to leave the city or anything like that, but that it was nice in Chicago, for instance, that time of year.
Mr.Hubert. And I think you said that you did not remember the name of the man.
Mrs.Rich. I cannot remember the name of the detective that I spoke to; no.
Mr.Hubert. But he was the detective on the police force?
Mrs.Rich. He was. Jack Ruby is very well known in Dallas. A little too well known.
Mr.Hubert. What do you mean by that?
Mrs.Rich. Just a personal opinion. I believe—now, this is not a fact, this is just talk, this is just personal opinion—I believe at the time of the—am I naming it correctly—Oswald assassination, it was claimed that Ruby got in therepretending to be a reporter. Am I correct that that was in the printed page?
Mr.Hubert. Well, what comment have you got to make to that?
Mrs.Rich. Anyone that made that statement would be either a damn liar or a damn fool.
Mr.Hubert. Why?
Mrs.Rich. There is no possible way that Jack Ruby could walk in Dallas and be mistaken for a newspaper reporter, especially in the police department. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
Mr.Hubert. Is that your opinion?
Mrs.Rich. That is not my personal opinion. That is a fact.
Mr.Hubert. Well, on what do you base it?
Mrs.Rich. Ye gods, I don’t think there is a cop in Dallas that doesn’t know Jack Ruby. He practically lived at that station. They lived in his place. Even the lowest patrolman on the beat. He is a real fanatic on that, anyway.
Mr.Hubert. When you say even the lowest patrolman on the beat, what do you mean?
Mrs.Rich. Everybody from the patrolmen on the beat in uniform to, I guess everybody with the exception of Captain Fritz, used to come in there, knew him personally. He used to practically live at the station. I am not saying that Captain Fritz didn’t know him. I am saying he was never—I have never seen him in the Carousel. He has always been, I think, a little too far above things for that.
Mr.Hubert. Well, you have seen other high-ranking officers there?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; I have.
Mr.Hubert. Would you name them, please?
Mrs.Rich. I would if I could. I would be only too glad to.
Mr.Hubert. You mean you don’t know?
Mrs.Rich. I cannot recall names, sir.
Mr.Hubert. How did you know they were high-ranking officers?
Mrs.Rich. At that time I knew them. Two years from now, if somebody asked me your name, I would remember I knew you, I had seen you, but I could not tell him your name.
Mr.Hubert. You remember Captain Fritz’ name.
Mrs.Rich. Everybody remembers Captain Fritz. Will Fritz is quite a famous man. And I would say he is of the highest integrity. Probably the only one I know of on the police department that is.
Mr.Hubert. I think you mentioned in one interview you had with the FBI that you had some information that a contact in regard to this gunrunning business was to be made at the Hotel Nueva Gallina in the city of Guadalajara, Mexico. Is that correct?
Mrs.Rich. To the best of my knowledge; yes.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you get the information from?
Mrs.Rich. In the conversation at the second or third meeting.
Mr.Hubert. Did you mention that to the FBI people in any of your interviews prior to January?
Mrs.Rich. Not that I recall. I never talked about it prior to the time I went there.
Mr.Hubert. You spoke to the FBI in November and again in December.
Mrs.Rich. Let’s put it this way. When you say prior to me going to the FBI—I went to the FBI the first time I believe in Oakland. And I do not recall whether or not I told them the first time or the second time about that. Whichever time I told them, I don’t recall.
Mr.Hubert. I think it is a fact, is it not, that you contacted the FBI in Brookline, Mass., sometime in January to tell them that you had been going through some things of yours and had additional information.
Mrs.Rich. I believe it was in January. It was in Boston, by the way.
Mr.Hubert. It was in Boston?
Mrs.Rich. Yes. I believe it was Mr. Stoddard I talked to.
Mr.Hubert. What was the additional information?
Mrs.Rich. Right now I do not even remember.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall that you found something among your thingswhich indicated that the contact during the gunrunning proposition was supposed to be at this hotel in Guadalajara?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t remember what it was I turned up. I think it was then—I know I turned up an address book with a telephone number in it. I forgot whether that was here or in Oakland. And some cards. I know what it was. It was on the back of a business card. That’s right. It was on the back of a business card I turned that up. Yes; it was when I called them—because I had gone through my strongbox after my stuff had got here.
Mr.Hubert. But the information that you had gotten concerning the contact point as being in this hotel in Guadalajara, that information was obtained by you at one of the meetings that you have just described.
Mrs.Rich. It was obtained there; yes. And if I remember, it had eluded me when I first talked to them. And if I am not mistaken—I should have brought it—I have it on the back of a business card at home, that I turned up among some of my old business cards from Dallas in an envelope. Now, whether or not I had recalled that and told them at the first meeting or whether it was part of the additional information I don’t remember. But it seems to me I turned that business card up and did not remember that at the first talking with the FBI.
Mr.Griffin. Whose name was on the front of the business card?
Mrs.Rich. Some advertising agency. It was just some card I marked it down on.
Mr.Hubert. Were you in the advertising business in 1961?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; I was.
Mr.Hubert. Where?
Mrs.Rich. In Boston. I handled the National Automatic Merchandising Association NAMA Week.
Mr.Hubert. What part of 1961?
Mrs.Rich. The first week in April we had the Governor proclaim it.
Mr.Hubert. Who said that the contact was going to be at this hotel in Guadalajara?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t know which one said it, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember at what meeting this was said?
Mrs.Rich. I believe at the third—the second. I wouldn’t swear, but I think the third.
Mr.Hubert. It was definitely not the first.
Mrs.Rich. No; definitely not the first. Either the second or the third.
Mr.Hubert. It was at the second that you had raised your price, I think, to $25,000.
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. And it was either that meeting or the third meeting that you got the information about the contact point being in this hotel.
Mrs.Rich. I am not sure which one it was, sir.
Mr.Griffin. You indicated that you did not know where this house was located in Dallas.
Mrs.Rich. I couldn’t give you a street; no.
Mr.Griffin. Can you give us a general area of Dallas?
Mrs.Rich. I am sorry, sir, I wish I could. I would recognize the house if I saw it. I cannot explain the human mind to you. Why is it that sometimes if you don’t want to remember something, you can block things off? It was something distasteful to me. I have perhaps not been a model personbut——
Mr.Hubert. Have you heard from this man Dave since you left Dallas?
Mrs.Rich. No.
Mr.Hubert. Does the name Dave Cherry mean anything to you?
Mrs.Rich. That’s it. I have been wracking my brain for that name. A swell-looking fellow—crewcut, young, real college-looking type.
Mr.Hubert. How long had you known him?
Mrs.Rich. A couple of months.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you meet him?
Mrs.Rich. University Club. I believe I met him there. Just precisely where I met him I don’t know. I think the University Club.
Mr.Hubert. Is that prior to the time your husband came to Dallas?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t remember if I met him before or after, to be truthful.
Mr.Hubert. In any case, he was the man who made the contact.
Mrs.Rich. Again, as I told the FBI, I will swear about 99 percent of it that he was the one.
Mr.Hubert. Well, you went there—he was present at three meetings.
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. And you knew him for 2 months prior to that.
Mrs.Rich. That is correct—about.
Mr.Hubert. Why should there be any doubt in your mind whatsoever?
Mrs.Rich. Because somewhere another face keeps popping up. And don’t ask me to go into it, because I could not if I tried.
Mr.Hubert. You mean you think it might not be Dave Cherry?
Mrs.Rich. No; that it is. I am about 1 percent unsure. And I told the FBI that. But that is the only face I can put with that. And I keep putting Dave in that car and over there with us.
Mr.Hubert. Did you advise your husband about being tailed recently?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; my husband is aware of it.
Mr.Griffin.Now——
Mrs.Rich. As I say, I don’t believe this has anything to do with this at all. I told you merely because I was told to. Otherwise I would never point it out.
Mr.Hubert. Perhaps we ought to get for the record what the names of these Secret Service and FBI agents are. I think you mentioned their last names. Do you know their first names?
Mrs.Rich. No; I do not, sir. I would not know them if I saw them.
Mr.Hubert. They just spoke to you on the telephone?
Mrs.Rich. That’s correct.
Mr.Hubert. How did you know they were FBI agents?
Mrs.Rich. The first time when Mr. Fahety called me I was not sure, and I would not answer any questions. So he said, “Call me back collect” and I called the FBI back collect and it was true enough. Mr. Sweeny I know it was, because he said he bought the tickets and had information only the Secret Service would know, and that Mr. Milton would pick me up subsequently, which he did.
Mr.Griffin. You mentioned, I think, Mrs. Rich, that you were going to use a boat to transport the guns to Cuba and the people back.
Mrs.Rich. That’s correct.
Mr.Griffin. Where was this boat located?
Mrs.Rich. From what I understood; in Miami.
Mr.Griffin. What kind of a boat was it?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t know. I was under the impression it might have been an old picket boat.
Mr.Griffin. What gave you that impression?
Mrs.Rich. Just the talk about it. I kind of got the impression that it might have been one that had been—you know how the Coast Guard and the Navy would sell them off sometime.
Mr.Griffin. Had Dave Cherry been a friend of your husband’s?
Mrs.Rich. No; I don’t believe so. I do not know who his friends were when he was in Dallas. Eddie Brawner and Youngblood were. Eddie Brawner could probably tell you more on this than I could; because my husband talked to him and wanted to go on the boat with him. He and Eddie used to race stock cars and stuff. And he told me—my husband claimed he used to work for Herb Noble in Dallas. There is something else. And Al Meadows. Al Meadows claimed he never saw him. He is another underworld character—back there in prohibition. And they used to run an Oklahoma gin. My husband claimed he was the only one alive who knew who gunned Herb Noble down, and that he never told. And I don’t know if it is true. Eddie Brawner was supposed to be in on this with him. I think he told Eddie all about this, more than I knew.
Mr.Griffin. How soon after your husband came to Dallas did Dave Cherry meet him?
Mrs.Rich. I could not really say, actually.
Mr.Griffin. Well, what was the nature of his friendship for Dave Cherry?
Mrs.Rich. How did he meet him?
Mr.Griffin. No. To what extent were they friendly?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t know. They would go off some time and I would not even be there. Actually a lot of the stuff that transpired I could not tell you.
Mr.Griffin. Was this before or after the meeting with the colonel?
Mrs.Rich. He know Dave before the meeting.
Mr.Griffin. And how had he met him?
Mrs.Rich. Through me. And then again I am not clear whether I met him—this is another point I am not clear on. I am not clear whether Bob met Dave and introduced him to me or I introduced Dave to Bob. Here again I am not clear. This may sound ridiculous, but I am not.
Mr.Griffin. What was your husband’s experience with boats?
Mrs.Rich. Again, factually I cannot tell you. Supposedly he had been in gun running before.
Mr.Griffin. That is the only experience you know of that he had with boats?
Mrs.Rich. He claimed he owned a big boat, he and Lee Dell owned a big boat out in California. I guess he did because he had pictures of it and him working around it. I still have the pictures. Now, Lee Dell, there is another man could probably shed some light on this. But God knows where he is. I never met the man. You see, I don’t know just exactly what I was involved in.
Mr.Griffin. And you don’t know what your role was to be in this?
Mrs.Rich. Oh, you mean in this gun-running stuff to Cuba?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mrs.Rich. Just by sheer force of will and apparently because they wanted my husband, I was going to go along.
Mr.Griffin. You were going to go along as a passenger?
Mrs.Rich. I was going to help working the boat, because I had knowledge of boats.
Mr.Griffin. What knowledge did you have of the boats?
Mrs.Rich. I was born and brought up in Biddeford, Maine. I have worked on lobster boats a good many years off and on. My uncle owns them.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall any occasion on which you went to the University Club and had some drinks and didn’t pay for them?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t think I ever paid for drinks at the University Club.
Mr.Hubert. Why?
Mrs.Rich. Dave never took money.
Mr.Hubert. Did you go alone?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t remember. I believe so. Maybe, maybe not.
Mr.Hubert. But they would not take your money?
Mrs.Rich. Dave never charged me. He always told me it was all right. And I don’t drink anyway. All I drink is coke. Once in a great, great while I will drink either a grasshopper or like last night I was all keyed up so I had a brandy Alexander before I went to bed. But I might have done this five times in 10 years.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember an argument you had with your former and deceased husband, Robert Perrin, in the University Club, which argument was witnessed by Dave Cherry?
Mrs.Rich. I never had an argument with my husband in the University Club or anywhere else.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember the manager of the University Club telling you that neither you nor your husband could return to the club thereafter?
Mrs.Rich. I do not.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever telephone Cherry advising him that you were leaving for New Orleans and that you expected to work for the Playboy Club there?
Mrs.Rich. I believe I did. I might have, because that is what my plans happened to have been.
Mr.Hubert. Did you in fact work for the Playboy Club?
Mrs.Rich. Yes, I did.
Mr.Hubert. For how long?
Mrs.Rich. 2 or 3 nights.
Mr.Hubert. What happened?
Mrs.Rich. I didn’t like it. For one thing, you were not allowed to keep tips.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you live in New Orleans?
Mrs.Rich. Part of the time down in one of the Sisters’ places, down in theFrench Quarter, on St. Philip’s Street. And then 1713 Calhoun. That is where my husband died. And various other places which I cannot remember, sir.
Mr.Hubert. What did your husband do for a living while you were in New Orleans?
Mrs.Rich. The last time he had the best position I have ever seen him hold. He was working for a construction company.
Mr.Hubert. Which one?
Mrs.Rich. Oh, dear. Dickie Bennett, Mr. McHane, those were two of his bosses—Mr. White.
Mr.Hubert. What construction was he working on?
Mrs.Rich. Well, he was a mechanic for the heavy equipment. He was just getting a raise and everything when this happened.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know the location where he was working?
Mrs.Rich. Yes, out in Jeff Parish.
Mr.Hubert. Was the building going up there?
Mrs.Rich. No, they had this contract for the phone company. They would lay all their roads, and the poles and stuff, and various things. He would go out on jobs. I got him the job through Dickie Bennett.
Mr.Hubert. You did not work at that time?
Mrs.Rich.I——
Mr.Hubert. I mean the time you were in New Orleans.
Mrs.Rich. I would rather not answer that.
Mr.Griffin.This——
Mrs.Rich. I will answer to this extent. For one thing, I dealt black jack.
Mr.Griffin. Mrs. Rich, you mentioned the name of a man by the name of Brawner. Now, did Mr. Brawner ever attend any of these meetings with the colonel?
Mrs.Rich. No.
Mr.Griffin. So his only knowledge of this would be what your husband might have told him.
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Griffin. What does Mr. Brawner do for a living?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t know what Eddie does—odd jobs.
Mr.Griffin. How old a man is he?
Mrs.Rich. Middle age—40, maybe. Does a lot of work with kids in these go carts—soap box derbies and stuff. I guess they used to be in the carnival together. As I say, everything I say, I don’t know how much truth there is in it from what my husband told me.
Mr.Griffin. Where does Mr. Brawner live?
Mrs.Rich. Grand Prairie.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know where in Grand Prairie?
Mrs.Rich. No.
Mr.Griffin. Is he married?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Does he have a family?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; he does. I believe his wife’s name is Mary.
Mr.Griffin. How many children does he have?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t remember—quite a few—three or four.
I would like one thing known. Until the time I met my husband and since he died I have done nothing that I would be ashamed of, nothing I would not do in public. Now that I am married to Mr. Rich I do not want any recriminations due to the fact of the period of time I was married to my husband. My husband—the first year and a half of our marriage was beautiful. Then my husband turned me out. Don’t ask me why I didn’t leave him. Everyone else asked me that. It is not easy being something that is against everything that you believe in or stand for 2 years. There were periods—I told the FBI this, and I might as well state it right here. I was a prostitute—call it what you may—call girl, madam. It still boils down to the same damn thing. When I worked, he worked. When I quit, he quit.
Mr.Hubert. You are talking about Robert Perrin?
Mrs.Rich. I am talking about Robert Perrin.
Mr.Griffin. When did you marry Mr. Perrin?
Mrs.Rich. July of—August of 1960, I believe—1961. I have forgotten.
Mr.Griffin. Prior to that time you had never been in any trouble with the police?
Mrs.Rich. No; except when I was 16, I was driving a car with no license and had been taking some medicine and I hit a pole with it, and lied to my uncle, who was the judge, and he made me pay a fine. He made me spend overnight in our own little jail in our own little town to teach me a lesson, and it did. He said if I had not lied, it would have been all right.
Mr.Hubert. What was the significance of your remark that when you worked he worked, and when you did notwork——
Mrs.Rich. As long as I was hustling he would work, and as long as I wasn’t hustling he would not work.
Mr.Hubert. Does that mean hewas——
Mrs.Rich. My husband turned me out. That is what it means.
Mr.Hubert. Turned you out of the house?
Mrs.Rich. This is an expression used in that particular trade.
Mr.Hubert. What you meanis——
Mrs.Rich. He taught me how to be a prostitute, obtained dates for me, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I married into a very respectable family. I come from a respectable family. And I came here today all set on any question such as this to take the fifth amendment, or just refuse to answer.
Mr.Hubert. Well, ma’am, let the record show that a moment ago, when you said you would rather not go into this, you were not pressed into going into it, but you said you wished to do so, is that correct?
Mrs.Rich. That is not correct.
Mr.Hubert. What was the situation?
Mrs.Rich. Why did I do it?
Mr.Hubert. No; why did you tell us about this?
Mrs.Rich. I am sorry. Change my statement from that is not correct to that is correct.
Mr.Hubert. That is to say a moment ago—let me get this clear—when you said that is a matter you did not want to go into, you will agree with me, will you not, that I did not pursue the matter, but that you then said “I might as well tell you” and proceeded to do so.
Mrs.Rich. That is correct. Why did I do so?
Mr.Hubert. No, ma’am; I am not asking you why.
Mrs.Rich. All right, that’s fine.
Mr.Hubert. I think we do have the date of your husband’s death.
Mrs.Rich. August 29, 1962, city of New Orleans.
Mr.Hubert. And you say there was an autopsy made?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; there was. He had been dead 2 days before I knew it. I wasn’t there. I think all I felt was a great sense of relief.
Mr.Hubert. Now, Mrs. Rich, is it not a fact that there has been no off-the-record conversation between us at all?
Mrs.Rich. That is correct?
Mr.Hubert. Is it not a fact that all that has occurred between you and me in this interview, with Mr. Griffin, is all on the record?
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Thank you, Mrs. Rich.