Mr.Hubert. You mean making those bearings?
Mr.Ruby. Making the whole twistboard, and I think they referred me to Triangle, and I called them, if that is the correct company, and had them send me a sample and a quotation.
Mr.Hubert. Did anything come of it?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. What did Jack propose to do so far as you know?
Mr.Ruby. Well, he was going to, youknow——
Mr.Hubert. Manufacture it?
Mr.Ruby. Have somebody make it and distribute it.
Mr.Hubert. Is it possible that he suggested the name Triangle to you?
Mr.Ruby. It is possible. I am not sure. I am not sure where I got that name, because I think it was only one call I made, and then they said they would send me the sample, and that was it. I forgot all about it.
Mr.Hubert. Did they send the sample?
Mr.Ruby. Yes, yes; if that is the company, they sent the sample.
Mr.Hubert. And what did you do with it?
Mr.Ruby. Nothing, because I then got the sample and saw what they wanted for it. I think they wanted 45 cents just for the bearing part, and then you had to make this board, and knowing something about manufacturing, Jack wanted to sell it for about $2 retail, so I told him if the bearing cost 45 cents and the top cost a quarter and you have got to put it in a box and package it, you can’t come out, because you have got almost 80 cents cost to manufacture it and you have got to give the jobbers 50 and 10 above, that means you get 90 cents. You can’t work on a dime gross profit. And so I discouraged him about getting in it, so that was the end of that.
Mr.Hubert. Did he attempt to interest you in getting into this business?
Mr.Ruby. No; he wanted to make it there in Dallas. He wanted to make it in Dallas. In fact, he said he was going over, he was going to have, I think, the Goodwill. I think they manufacture things at a very reasonable cost, and he said that is how he was going to cut corners. But I discouraged him anyhow. I couldn’t see it, and it was a good thing I did because I checked on the sales of the item in the Detroit area and it was a flop, anyhow.
Mr.Hubert. Apparently this item wasn’t patented.
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. Now, can you comment as to what you know about an organization called the Gilt Edge Associates, Finishing Corp., in New York City?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; that is owned by Elliott Schwartz and his brother.
Mr.Hubert. What is that corporation? What do they do?
Mr.Ruby. They do finishing on greeting cards. Some of their work is called flocking, and they put that glittery substance on greeting cards and things of that sort, and they also do silk screen work.
Mr.Hubert. And what was your interest in those products?
Mr.Ruby. That is my brother-in-law.
Mr.Hubert. That is your brother-in-law?
Mr.Ruby. That is the same Elliott Schwartz that you brought up about. That is the company he owns. I mean that is my brother-in-law on the wife’s side.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know an organization or corporation, perhaps just a company, called the James Welch Co.?
Mr.Ruby. James Welch? No.
Mr.Hubert. Would you comment on what knowledge you have of an organization called the Ipsilanti Buffing Co.
Mr.Ruby. Never heard of it.
Mr.Hubert. What about the Public Vending Co.? Do you know of that organization?
Mr.Ruby. No. Are they in Detroit?
Mr.Hubert. I don’t know.
Mr.Ruby. I don’t know. It doesn’t register at all.
Mr.Hubert. What about the Troy Plating Co.?
Mr.Ruby. When I was Earl Products, I used to have so many plating companies to do work for us. Is this a Chicago concern would you know?
Mr.Hubert. I don’t know.
Mr.Ruby. I don’t recall that name.
Mr.Hubert. Have you had any contact with an organization called the General Scientific Corp.?
Mr.Ruby. Oh, General Scientific? Yes. I think that is the company we used to buy lenses from for our camera, little glass lenses, if I am not mistaken.
Mr.Hubert. Coming back to the Troy Plating Co. in Chicago, do you recall having occasion to have called them from Detroit on October 21?
Mr.Ruby. Let me see, Troy Plating? What did I call them for? Yes, yes, yes; I know what it is. I think I know what it is now.
In our cleaning operation we have a liner, a copper liner. It is a large basket, very large, probably 30 inches in diameter and overall length of about 4 feet, and it was corroded and the corrosion was coming off on some of our cleaning, and I couldn’t seem to find anyone in Detroit to plate it. It was just an odd shape. And so I called, I think that is the reason I called Troy Plating, to see if they could do it. However, I finally located somebody in Detroit to plate it.
Mr.Hubert. Your testimony is that that was the occasion for calling the Troy Co.
Mr.Ruby. I can’t think of any other reason.
Mr.Hubert. Now, what about the Dixie Seal and Stamp Co. in Atlanta?
Mr.Ruby. When I took over the nameplate business, that is back from Oliff, the fellow I had sold it to, Earl Products, and I received a few small orders for plates, nameplates, and it was foolish to set up my complete operation for just a few orders, and I knew that Dixie Seal and Stamp made a very similar item. So rather than my setting up the whole operation to make the few, I had them make it for me, and so I called them and talked to them on a few occasions, and they did make some for me.
Mr.Hubert. What about the Berger Products Co.?
Mr.Ruby. Berger? Where are they located? That doesn’t strike a bell.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t recall that?
Mr.Ruby. No. I make so many calls it is hard to remember all of them. But that doesn’t strike a bell.
Mr.Hubert. I think you have already mentioned your relationship with Mike Nemzin.
Mr.Ruby. Yes; one of my very close friends, and his brother is my partner.
Mr.Hubert. Apparently you called him on November 14. Do you recall that conversation?
Mr.Ruby. November the 14th. I could have called him November 14.
Mr.Hubert. Where does he live?
Mr.Ruby. In Chicago. I think the reason I called then is because George, his brother, told me he was very sick.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you call him?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t recall. Probably at his place of business.
Mr.Hubert. Does he have any connection or have any home or business at a place called Walled Lake, Mich.?
Mr.Ruby. Are you speaking of Mike Nemzin?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Ruby. No; not that I know of.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know anyone in Walled Lake, Mich.?
Mr.Ruby. No. We have customers there, but I don’t know them personally.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall any calls to this place, Walled Lake, Mich.?
Mr.Ruby. No; but since we have customers there, I might have called and we make so many calls to any of our customers at any given time.
Mr.Hubert. Would anybody else in your plant be making such calls?
Mr.Ruby. Oh, yes. We have a girl that does practically nothing but call customers, for many different reasons, you know. Sometimes they send in a garment and there is a hole in it.
Mr.Hubert. Is Walled Lake near Detroit?
Mr.Ruby. Oh, yes; very close.
Mr.Hubert. But you do have customers that come from that far?
Mr.Ruby. Oh, sure.
Mr.Hubert. What contacts have you had with the Denver-Chicago Trucking Co. in Denver?
Mr.Ruby. Well, they are the people that shipped the tools and dies and the punch press to take the plates to my brother-in-law Schwartz in New York, and on route they dropped the press and broke it in half, and so I had many conversations with them before I could get a settlement out of them. So I called them several times.
Mr.Hubert. What about a man by the name of Barney Rothenberg?
Mr.Ruby. What is his first name?
Mr.Hubert. Barney.
Mr.Ruby. It doesn’t register with me.
Mr.Hubert. Or Horace Settersfield or Dettersfield.
Mr.Ruby. Delderfield.
Mr.Hubert. Delderfield?
Mr.Ruby. He is my landlord. I lease his home, or rent a home from him.
Mr.Hubert. Where does he live?
Mr.Ruby. He lives in California.
Mr.Hubert. What business is he in?
Mr.Ruby. He is retired, as far as I know. In fact, I have never seen him. I rent through his agent, but I send my checks to him.
Mr.Hubert. Would you have had occasion to call him?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What was that about and when was it approximately?
Mr.Ruby. Gee, this was right after I moved in there, last fall, probably September, around in there. When we first rented the place, we wanted to know if it was all right to decorate, and I think that is why I called him.
Mr.Hubert. Coming back to—go ahead.
Mr.Ruby. I called him for another reason, also. Well, I had to call him and talk about the lease. See, I was taking over, subleasing from the people that were in there before me, so I think I talked to him once or twice.
Mr.Hubert. Coming back to Barney Rothenberg, does it help you any if I suggest that he lives on Genessee Street in Pontiac, Mich.?
Mr.Ruby. No; now, we go Pontiac. Our trucks go to Pontiac. I don’t remember calling him.
Mr.Hubert. Would it be a possibility, then, that that is a customer?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, what about a man by the name of Sidney Jaffe, who lives in Seattle, Wash.?
Mr.Ruby. Sidney Jaffe?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. You have no recollection?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. Of any contact with a man by that name?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Henry Kenter?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall anybody in the past mostly by the name of Chasin?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. The answer is no to Chasin. Do you know anybody in the Jaffe family?
Mr.Ruby. Did you say do I know anybody in the Jaffe family?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Ruby. In Chicago I do. Julie Jaffe.
Mr.Hubert. That is a lady?
Mr.Ruby. No; a man. Julius, I think is the correct name. I really don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. How long have you known him?
Mr.Ruby. Oh, about 20 years.
Mr.Hubert. How did you some to know him?
Mr.Ruby. Well, first, he is in the advertising specialty supply business, and we used to do business together a little bit. And then I knew him before. He grew up in the same neighborhood.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember what his father’s name was?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did he have any sisters?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t know a girl by the name of Charlotte Jaffe?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. Or Rosalyn Jaffe?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. What about a man by the name of Berke, who married one of the Jaffe girls?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know any person by the name of Pasol?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know of anyone who lives in Muncie, Ind.?
Mr.Ruby. Muncie? No; I don’t think I know anyone at all.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever been there?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t think so; never.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know if your brother Hyman Rubenstein was interested in Jack Ruby’s twistboard enterprise?
Mr.Ruby. All I know is that he sent him a sample.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know if he attempted to get Hyman financially interested?
Mr.Ruby. That I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. I think you have already said that he did not attempt to get you financially interested.
Mr.Ruby. No, no. All he wanted me to do was get him the best source for the different parts and he would assemble it in Dallas himself. I mean by that, he would have somebody do it for him.
Mr.Hubert. I think you do know Ralph Paul, don’t you?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; I met him in Dallas.
Mr.Hubert. And how long ago?
Mr.Ruby. Well, I first met him, I think it was, down there about 5 years ago.
Mr.Hubert. What was the occasion of your meeting him?
Mr.Ruby. Through Jack. Jack introduced us.
Mr.Hubert. Was it just a social meeting or did you have any business with him?
Mr.Ruby. I didn’t have any business with him. No business was discussed.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever had any business dealings with him?
Mr.Ruby. No; I know Jack worked with him, but I really don’t know. At least I think they had business dealings between themselves, but I am not sure.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have any financial dealings with him?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have occasion to lend him any money at any time?
Mr.Ruby. No. [I remember that my brother was going into business with Ralph Paul and Jack was supposed to put in $6,000 which he did not have at the time so he asked me to send $6,000 to him or Ralph Paul, which I did, and I’m sure Ralph Paul endorsed the check but I haven’t located the check as yet. I don’t remember whether I sent the check to Jack or Ralph, except that they were supposed to pay the money back to me but never did. When they informed me that the club had gone broke and they had no money to pay me, I wrote the $6,000 off as a loss.]
Mr.Hubert. Did he owe you any money at any time?
Mr.Ruby. Me?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Ruby. Ralph Paul?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. I call your attention to the fact that in your 1960 income tax return you claimed a loss as a result of a worthless judgment note with reference to Ralph Paul in the sum of $6,000.
Mr.Ruby. That went through my company, I think.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us about that. Did Ralph Paul do any business or come to be indebted?
Mr.Ruby. That was through the club. I sent money down to the club.
Mr.Hubert. Which club? The Sovereign or the Carousel?
Mr.Ruby. I think to organize the Sovereign Club.
Mr.Hubert. Who did you send the money to, and how much did you send?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t recall exactly. I think I sent more than one figure, than one amount, that is.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us about that transaction in general.
Mr.Ruby. I don’t recall. I would have to see—I don’t recall when I sent it because it is 4 or 5 years ago.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have occasion to get a judgment against Ralph Paul, that is to say to sue him?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. Here is your return for 1960. It might refresh your memory.
Mr.Ruby. This was sent, I think, to organize the Sovereign Club, and within 6 months the corporation folded or whatever it was, I don’t recall exactly. And a new corporation was formed. I can’t think of the new name, because I was out of the picture then.
Mr.Hubert. What I was trying to get at is, first of all, how you had a judgment, how you came to get a judgment against Ralph Paul in connection with the organization of the Sovereign Club.
Mr.Ruby. I sent the money down, but Jack, if I recall, asked me to send it.
Mr.Hubert. Suppose we approach it in another way.
Mr.Ruby. I don’t recall the complete details on it.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us how you came to be financially interested, or at least to advance money to Jack in connection with a club, the organization of a club.
Mr.Ruby. He called me and told me he needed some money for a good deal club that was going to be organized or taken over or something. It was some other club before.
Mr.Hubert. Did he tell you then how much he needed?
Mr.Ruby. I think I sent, I am sure I sent this down, if it so states.
Mr.Hubert. You mean $6,000?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And what was that to be, for the purchase of stock or a loan?
Mr.Ruby. I think I originally had stock in the corporation there, in the original Sovereign Club Corp., and I think now at that time, at that time Paul signed the note. I think this is howthis——
Mr.Hubert. You mean the note for the money that you sent down?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; I think something—I am not sure because it was handled more or less by my accountant. I am not positive how it was set up.
Mr.Hubert. But I mean your accountant would not have handled the original sending of the money.
Mr.Ruby. I sent a check, I am quite sure I sent the check.
Mr.Hubert. To organize the company?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And it was an investment or a loan, that is what I am trying to get at, or were there two separate transactions? You mentioned that Paul signed a note, and that would indicate that there was a loan made of some sort, you see.
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And then you mentioned that you got some stock which would indicate that the money was for an investment rather than a loan, or perhaps a combination. And that is what I am trying to find out, what it really was.
Mr.Ruby. I am really not sure. I am really not sure.
Mr.Hubert. Were you in a position at that time to advance that sort of money without investigating the possibility?
Mr.Ruby. Well, it was my brother.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever loaned him money before?
Mr.Ruby. Oh, yes; sure.
Mr.Hubert. And you have got it back?
Mr.Ruby. No; once before I loaned him some money, several times I loaned him money that I didn’t get back.
Mr.Hubert. Since he was in Dallas, you mean?
Mr.Ruby. Oh, yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you never took any notes from him?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; I think I did several years before this, but I don’t recall all the details on that, either.
Mr.Hubert. Did he ever pay you anything back on the various loans that he made from you?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. How much would you say that he owes you now then?
Mr.Ruby. Altogether?
Mr.Hubert. Well, I don’t mean including the money you may have expended since November 24th, but I mean up to that date.
Mr.Ruby. I would say altogether maybe as much as $15,000 that I sent him.
Mr.Hubert. And you have never got anything in return for it?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever written off those loans as bad debts?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. The income tax return which you hold in your hand there says it is a worthless judgment note. Do you recall that you actually filed the lawsuit against Paul and recovered a judgment which you could not collect?
Mr.Ruby. No; I don’tthink——
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall ever hiring any lawyers in Dallas or in the Dallas area for that purpose?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. Can you clarify for us in anyway at all what this entry means?
Mr.Ruby. Well, I explained it to my accountant, and he said that is how you write it off, as far as I know.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you simply gave him the facts?
Mr.Ruby. The facts.
Mr.Hubert. And he is the one who drew up the return?
Mr.Ruby. Right.
Mr.Hubert. I think his name is on the front of this. It would have been Mr. ——
Mr.Ruby. Let me see. Harold Kaminsky.
Mr.Hubert. Isn’t one of your sistersmarried——
Mr.Ruby. That is what I was going to say. He is my brother-in-law.
Mr.Hubert. Which sister is this?
Mr.Ruby. Eileen.
Mr.Hubert. She married Harold Kaminsky?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. He is an accountant, is he?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And he handled this for you?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You gave him these details?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Have you invested any money or loaned any money to Jack after 1960?
Mr.Ruby. After 1960?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Ruby. Yes; I think I did. I don’t remember the exact figure.
Mr.Hubert. What was it in connection with, and about when did it occur?
Mr.Ruby. It must have been just about 1960.
Mr.Hubert. It was in addition to the $6,000 that we have been talking about?
Mr.Ruby. I think that is the figure, but I am not sure.
Mr.Hubert. I don’t know that you would have been able to take a loss for a bad debt or loan made in 1960, that is to say on your return for 1960.
Mr.Ruby. I say I don’t recall. I don’t recall the exact—I would have to check my records and see when I sent it down.
Mr.Hubert. By your records, you mean checkbooks and so forth?
Mr.Ruby. Oh, yes.
Mr.Hubert. What sort of personal records do you have, Mr. Ruby?
Mr.Ruby. We have a regular set of books.
Mr.Hubert. Are you talking about the Cobo Cleaners?
Mr.Ruby. No; even before that.
Mr.Hubert. You mean you have a personal set of books?
Mr.Ruby. Oh, sure. I mean by regular bank stubs and check stubs and statements.
Mr.Hubert. You still have retained those?
Mr.Ruby. I think so.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have occasion to make a telephone call or send a telegram to Havana, Cuba, in 1962, in April of 1962?
Mr.Ruby. April of 1962? The only reason I would have, Jack visited Cuba, Havana. I don’t know if it was in April, and I may have talked to him. But I don’t know, I am not sure.
Mr.Hubert. You are acquainted with Jack’s visit to Havana?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; I know he went there.
Mr.Hubert. Did he go there once or more than once?
Mr.Ruby. As far as I know, once.
Mr.Hubert. Isn’t it a fact that that was in 1959?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t know. If it was in 1959, then I couldn’t have made any call or sent any wire. As far as I know, to Cuba, in 1962. I don’t remember any, anyhow.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know anybody in Cuba?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. Can you think of any reason at all why you might have sent a telegram or made a phone call to Cuba?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. Is it possible that some employee of yours might have?
Mr.Ruby. I am trying to think. I can’t think of anyone. I knew of the fellow that Jack went to visit there, a fellow by the name of McWillie.
Mr.Hubert. How did you know him?
Mr.Ruby. Jack told me about him.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever met him?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall that in the early part of this year, specifically on January 6, you were interviewed by an Internal Revenue agent who asked you about some calls and so forth, and that he mentioned to you something about a call to Cuba, and that you told him that you thought it was a telegram?
Mr.Ruby. There should be some record of it if I did. I don’t recall.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall a conversation with this Internal Revenue agent whereby he was questioning you concerning whether certain phone calls were properly deductible business expenses?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And that in the course of that conversation he asked you about the Havana call and that you identified or thought that it was a telegram?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t see why. I don’t recall sending a telegram. I can’t think of why it would be in 1962. I can’t think of any reason for it.
Mr.Hubert. Is it possible that someone else could have called and charged it to the Cobo Cleaners account?
Mr.Ruby. I doubt it. I just can’t imagine who in 1962.
Mr.Hubert. In April of 1962 you were with Cobo Cleaners in Detroit already?
Mr.Ruby. Yes. I can’t think of any reason.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have any policy in your business about getting approval before long-distance calls were made, or how did you manage that aspect?
Mr.Ruby. No; I mean I don’t watch it that close because we have so many. Wouldn’t we know, or isn’t there somebody where we sent it so it could refresh my memory? I don’t think I did.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Pratkins, or possibly Praskins?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever been to Cuba yourself?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Hubert. Coming back to that Welch Co. I mentioned a moment ago, would it help you if I stated that I think they are located in Cambridge, Mass., and it is the Welch Candy Co.? Do you recall anything about that?
Mr.Ruby. No; you know my brother Hy sells candy. How long ago does this go back? It doesn’t register with me at all.
Mr.Hubert. This would have been in May of 1963.
Mr.Ruby. The name doesn’t register at all.
Mr.Hubert. You have no recollection that you yourself made any call to the James Welch Candy Co. in Cambridge, Mass.?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t think so.
Mr.Hubert. Would there be a possibility that someone could have used your phone and done that?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t think they would. The only possibility, if my brother Hy does business with them, the only possibility I can think of is that perhaps at that time he was visiting me and called them. But he would ask me first, I think.
[I do recall making a call to Welch Candy to ask them if they were to continue using my camera as a premium.]
Mr.Hubert. Did he visit you during the year 1963?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. About what time of the year?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t recall.
Mr.Hubert. Was it in the spring?
Mr.Ruby. I am not sure.
Mr.Hubert. Was it about a year ago?
Mr.Ruby. He stopped in a couple of times. Yes; when he is in the territory he stops in.
Mr.Hubert. Suppose we take a breather for a minute.
(Brief recess.)
Mr.Hubert. Mr. Griffin, who is working with me in this area, has some questions to ask you, so let’s get back on the record with the statement that this is a continuation of the deposition under the same authority that was used for the commencement of the deposition, and that you are still under the same oath that you were at the beginning, and may we have this understanding, that if we have any further recesses as I think we will, that the continuation thereafter will be under the same authority that we started off with, and that you will be under oath throughout? Do you agree to that?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. That is to save some time. All right. Mr. Griffin.
Mr.Griffin. What I would like to do at the outset, Mr. Ruby, is to go back over some of the names that Mr. Hubert had talked with you about before, and maybe I can ask some questions which might be able to refresh your recollection. He indicated to me that you didn’t recognize the name of DominicScorta. Now this would be somebody who lives or works in Chicago. Do you have any recollection of any association with anybody like that?
Mr.Ruby. Scorta, Scorta? Not at all.
Mr.Griffin. Mr. Hubert also indicated to me that you didn’t recognize the name of a man named Kirk Bibul?
Mr.Ruby. That is right; I don’t.
Mr.Griffin. Do you have any friends or acquaintances at Northwestern University or in Evanston?
Mr.Ruby. Gee, I lived in Chicago all my life. I have got any number of friends that went to school there but that name still doesn’t sound familiar.
Mr.Griffin. Are your children of college age?
Mr.Ruby. No; the oldest one is only 15.
Mr.Griffin. Do you have anyone who has access to your house phone or business phone?
Mr.Ruby. The only thing I can think of, I don’t know, is he a music teacher?
Mr.Griffin. This is what I am asking you. Do you know a music teacher?
Mr.Ruby. My wife was trying to contact a music teacher at Northwestern to send my children to him for piano lessons.
Mr.Griffin. When was that? I mean, how long ago was this?
Mr.Ruby. It has got to be 3 years ago.
Mr.Griffin. This is while you lived in Chicago?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; that is the only thing I can think of. Or if he has anything to do with music teaching there, that is the only reason I can think of.
Mr.Hubert. Suppose we get this into the record. Could you give us the names of the people who would have had access to the telephones at the Cobo Cleaners, and who might have made long distance calls during the years 1962 and 1963?
Mr.Ruby. Any one of our employees could have. It would be very difficult. I could give you the list, but there is quite a few.
Mr.Hubert. Would an employee make a long-distance call without your consent?
Mr.Ruby. No; I don’t think so.
Mr.Hubert. Who would be authorized to make it without clearing with you first, let’s put it that way?
Mr.Ruby. Anyone; anyone probably other than my wife or my partner that I can think of. That is about all.
Mr.Hubert. You mean by that that the only ones who would be authorized without clearing it first would be your partner and your wife?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; for very long-distance calls. Now we call the suburbs as I told you, Pontiac, Walled Lake, or Mount Clemens. Those are 25¢ or 30¢ calls. Because we cover that area and our trucks go there, our call girl will be calling them any number of times during the month.
Mr.Hubert. How many employees did you have during this period? I know it would vary, but an average?
Mr.Ruby. Probably 50.
Mr.Hubert. Now the phones are in the office?
Mr.Ruby. Not all of them. We have one in the back end that anybody could use.
Mr.Hubert. Is that a pay phone?
Mr.Ruby. We have a pay phone and a company phone.
Mr.Hubert. What are the numbers of each? What is the pay phone number?
Mr.Ruby. The pay phone I don’t know. They took that out. I don’t know what that is. I never use it.
Mr.Hubert. It is still there?
Mr.Ruby. Oh, yes.
Mr.Hubert. What is the number of the regular?
Mr.Ruby. 860-3400.
Mr.Hubert. Where is that located?
Mr.Ruby. We have one in the marking room as we call it at the back end of the plant. We have four extensions in the front office where the girls are. We have an extension phone in my office.
Mr.Hubert. Are those all on the same line, the same number?
Mr.Ruby. 0400, 1, 2, and 3.
Mr.Hubert. There are really three numbers?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; then we have another phone, my private line which is 863—I have got to look it up myself. I never use it. I don’t even have my own number.
Mr.Hubert. Let me put it this way. Who would have access to those phones other than the public phone?
Mr.Ruby. I am not through yet. We have some other phones. We do dry cleaning for J. L. Hudson Co. I don’t suppose you have heard of them. We have two outside phones that we use in conjunction with their business. Now you are saying 1962. When are you speaking of 1962, when? Because we didn’t take over Hudson’s until December of 1962, so those numbers wouldn’t mean anything.
Mr.Griffin. What about 1963?
Mr.Ruby. 1963, yes; we had this.
Mr.Griffin. What are those numbers?
Mr.Ruby. 863-0566.
Mr.Hubert. Who would have access to those office phones as it were?
Mr.Ruby. Well, most anybody in the office. We have about 10 office employees, and every once in a while some of the shop employees come up and use it.
Mr.Hubert. To make long distance phone calls?
Mr.Ruby. No. As far as long distance, I don’t think so.
Mr.Hubert. Have you checked the long distance records in any way?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t check them too carefully because we make so many. My partner lives out of town, and I always talk to maybe Miriam in the plant. We work together, we buy together sometimes. I talk to the Benton Harbor plant.
Mr.Hubert. But you don’t spot check it to seethat——
Mr.Ruby. No; I really don’t spot check it that closely.
Mr.Griffin. I wonder if we could get from Mr. Ruby, maybe if you would make a note of this, to provide us with a list of all of your office employees for the year 1963?
Mr.Ruby. You don’t know if this is a music teacher, do you? Probably my wife called.
Mr.Hubert. We are speaking generally now.
Mr.Griffin. We are speaking generally. First of all, I am not addressing myself to Mr. Bibul. Right now we are just addressing ourselves to the general problem who else might have used your phone. Do you think you could provideus——
Mr.Ruby. Oh, sure; that is no problem.
Mr.Griffin. With a list of all of the office employees which you had?
Mr.Ruby. Sure; that is no problem.
Mr.Griffin. You can limit that to the year 1963.
Mr.Ruby. When you say provide a list, what do you want?
Mr.Hubert. You want from April of 1962, don’t you?
Mr.Griffin. Give us the month of April of 1962.
Mr.Hubert. During the lunch period if you have a chance you might be able to write that down too.
Mr.Ruby. You are talking of all office employees April 1962. Well, we had some changes, several of them, you know.
Mr.Griffin. And then you can skip the remaining months and give us all of 1963.
Mr.Ruby. You just want their names. You don’t want any addresses or phone numbers or anything, just their names?
Mr.Griffin. Well, if you can give us addresses also we would appreciate it.
Mr.Ruby. Oh, yes; I can take it off the employee payroll card. I can give you the whole thing.
Mr.Griffin. Gives us names, addresses, and telephone numbers.
Mr.Ruby. Do you want me to ask my wife specifically about that call to North western University?
Mr.Griffin. If you would?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; because that may answer that one. What is that name?
Mr.Griffin. Kirk Bibul.
Mr.Ruby. And that was in April 1962?
Mr.Griffin. No.
Mr.Ruby. That would be before that?
Mr.Griffin. No; that was after.
Mr.Ruby. Before.
Mr.Griffin. That was the latter part of 1962 and the first part of 1963.
Mr.Ruby. Late 1962 and 1963.
Mr.Griffin. And early 1963. I believe also you indicated to Mr. Hubert that you didn’t recognize the name of the Ypsilanti Buffing Co. as anybody that you had dealt with.
Mr.Hubert. Or maybe you did identify that one.
Mr.Ruby. No; I don’t think so. Now when was this about? Maybe this had to do with polishing or plating that same basket that we use in our dry cleaning operation. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. How about the Public Vending Corp?
Mr.Ruby. No; Public Vending, where are they located? Is that a long distance call, you say?
Mr.Griffin. That is a long distance call. When did you have this problem with the plating that required some work?
Mr.Ruby. Last year.
Mr.Griffin. What part of last year would that have been?
Mr.Ruby. No, excuse me; yes, the end of last year, that is right, the end of last year, and that is when I think I called Troy Plating in Chicago, to see if they could do that, and I may have called. I used the yellow pages. I tried to get information from anyone as to who could do it, so I may have called Ypsilanti, and they may have said no and I crossed it out of my mind immediately.
Mr.Griffin. Now the General Scientific Corp. is not a corporation that you recognize?
Mr.Ruby. Oh, yes; oh, yes. We bought lenses from them for the camera.
Mr.Griffin. How about Berger Products?
Mr.Ruby. That don’t register with me. What city? That isn’t in Cleveland, is it, by chance, because I just called Berger Products I think Monday, but that wouldn’t be on there. That is this Monday. See, we buy different articles from different parts of the country, and it is hard to remember each one.
Mr.Griffin. Are these purchases in connection with your drycleaning business or some other business?
Mr.Ruby. Which, Troy? That was for the drycleaning. The lens, that was for my camera.
Mr.Griffin. Have you asked him, Mr. Hubert, about what percentage of his time is spentwith——
Mr.Hubert. No.
Mr.Griffin. Can you give us some idea what percentage of your time is spent with the camera company and what percentage with the drycleaning business?
Mr.Ruby. The camera company is practically nil. In fact, it is out of business now. Over a 2-year period I only did about $10,000 gross sales, I think.
Mr.Griffin. Last year how much of your time was devoted to the camera company?
Mr.Ruby. When you say time, actually I took care of it more or less out of my home.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have any other businesses last year besides the camera company and the drycleaning business?
Mr.Ruby. Well, I had the nameplate business. That all comes under Earl Ruby Co., both of those.
Mr.Griffin. How much of your time did the nameplate business take?
Mr.Ruby. Very little. I don’t think I did a thousand dollars in the last 2 years on that, so you can imagine how much time that took up. And then that is dead now. In fact, the orders were so small that instead of manufacturing the plates myself, for which I have the tools and dies, I had somebody else do it for me that makes a similar item.
Mr.Griffin. What kind of nameplates are they?
Mr.Ruby. A little plate 3 inches by 6 inches made out of metal. It is verysimilar to the design of your license plate, but we would put the children’s name on it, like John Jones, and they would fasten it to the back of their bicycle or their wagon or what have you. This was a box top deal item that we used, Armour’s Meats used it several years ago. They send in a box top from Armour’s franks with 25 cents, and you get the plate, things like that.
Mr.Griffin. You say you held the dies on it?
Mr.Ruby. I own them.
Mr.Griffin. You own the dies, but you were going to have somebody else manufacture them?
Mr.Ruby. Yes, I did, because it didn’t pay for me to set up to make 100 plates, because it just wasn’t worth it, you know.
Mr.Griffin. Who did the manufacturing?
Mr.Ruby. Dixie.
Mr.Griffin. Is this your brother-in-law’s company?
Mr.Ruby. Who?
Mr.Griffin. Dixie?
Mr.Ruby. Dixie, no; that is just some people I never even met, but I knew that they made a very similar plate, exactly the same size but slightly different in design, and that I could substitute this for mine. Actually, his was a better plate. It was made out of aluminum, which I did. And so that it wasn’t necessary for me to go through all the bother and expense to set up my operation to make the plate.
Mr.Griffin. That is the Dixie Seal and Stamp Co.?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. In Atlanta?
Mr.Ruby. Right.
Mr.Griffin. Now the Berger Products Co. is in Philadelphia.
Mr.Ruby. Oh, Berger Products. They made a plate, and the reason I called them, I have got to go back. When I sold my company, Earl Products, the fellow I sold it to couldn’t pay me all the money. So we made a new deal. He gave me some money and some of the operation back. That is how I got back the camera and the nameplate. Berger is also in the nameplate manufacturing business, and I wanted to sell him the nameplate business if I could. That is why I called him. Now I know. It is Philadelphia. That must be the Berger Co.
Mr.Griffin. Now did Mr. Hubert ask you if you knew anybody at the Mar-Din Co.?
Mr.Ruby. No; he didn’t ask me that. Yes; I know those people.
Mr.Griffin. How do you happen to know them?
Mr.Ruby. They were one of our best accounts years ago when I first got into manufacturing.
Mr.Griffin. This was in the Earl Products?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; the Earl Products Co.
Mr.Griffin. What sort of things did they purchase from you?
Mr.Ruby. Well, they purchased aluminum salt and pepper shaker sets. That was the main item. And then they also purchased some hammer and screwdriver sets, because at that time I was manufacturing those, too.
Mr.Griffin. Did you deal with these people while your brother Jack was connected with Earl Products?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And did Jack know these people?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. What does the Mar-Din Co. do?
Mr.Ruby. They are distributors of general merchandise, I would say.
Mr.Griffin. Do they do any manufacturing that you know of?
Mr.Ruby. No; I don’t thing so, not that I know of.
Mr.Griffin. What is the nature of their distribution? Is it mail order or direct sale?
Mr.Ruby. Well, it is both. I think some mail order and they have salesmen, which would mean direct.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember talking with Jack, your brother Jack, about the Mar-Din Co. at anytime last year?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; I think when he was talking about—I am not sure now, but I think that he brought up their name when he was talking to me about going into the manufacture of the twistboard, and he thought they would be a very good outlet.
Mr.Griffin. And do you recall what you suggested to him?
Mr.Ruby. No; I am not even sure of that. I can’t remember a conversation that took place.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember receiving any telephone calls from Jack in the month of November before the episode down in Dallas?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; we talked about the twistboard.
Mr.Griffin. How many calls do you recall receiving from him?
Mr.Ruby. Oh, at least three or four, I think.
Mr.Griffin. And were they all in connection with the twistboard?
Mr.Ruby. As far as I know; yes.
Mr.Griffin. I want to ask you to try to reflect on these calls and see if we can’t discuss them one by one. If you can, try to think about the first time he called you and the next time, and so forth, so that we can ascertain how your dealings with him progressed?
Mr.Ruby. Well, I think the first conversation was probably to the effect that he had a good item, and he was going to send me one, and he told me something about it, it is a terrific item, and he wants to get into the manufacture of it, if he could.
Mr.Griffin. Did he send you one of them?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; he did. In fact he sent me, I think he sent me a half dozen. No; the first time he only sent me two, and then when I was down in Dallas, you know, for the trial and so forth, I brought back a half dozen for my kids, and so on.
Mr.Griffin. I take it that you were interested then in the project?
Mr.Ruby. No; not for myself. He wanted me to see if I could locate people to make the parts at the least possible cost. He wanted to get into the manufacture in Dallas, and he mentioned to me, because I was trying to discourage him, because first of all he don’t know too much about manufacturing, and to set up for one item, which I didn’t think was such a tremendous item, I thought was a little bit ridiculous. And then he said that he would have the Goodwill organization assemble it for him. I don’t know if you are familiar with their complete operation, but they will assemble items for you at a very reasonable rate.
Mr.Griffin. This is Goodwill Industries?
Mr.Ruby. Oh, yes.
Mr.Griffin. And was that going to be done in Dallas?
Mr.Ruby. In Dallas. So then he sent me the sample, and somehow I think this Triangle manufacturing came up. He may have mentioned it. I am not sure because I don’t remember every word of the conversation going back that far. I think I called Triangle, if that is their name. I am not even sure of that. He called me and he said, he might have said, “call them and see what you can do.” Anyhow, I contacted a couple of people in Detroit that I thought might know something about the twistboard, because he told me it was so tremendous in Dallas I figured it’s got to be known here in Detroit, although I had never even seen it. So I asked—I happened to call a fellow that is a salesman for toys and novelties and things of that sort.
Mr.Griffin. Who was that?
Mr.Ruby. I can’t even think. I know his first name is Henny, I can’t even think of his last name, and he said it is a flop, it is a dead item here. They tried it and it didn’t go over. So I think in one of the conversations I no doubt told Jack that, and anyhow I got a sample and I think it was of this part that we needed, the bearing part for this twistboard. Maybe I had better describe it. It is a little board, fiberboard about 12 inches square and it sets on a bearing like, and the bearing has another piece of press wood under it, and if you stand on it and you twist, you twist around. That is what the item was. And I couldn’t see it, especially it was selling for $3. I couldn’t see it. I just didn’t think anything of it.
Mr.Griffin. I take it Jack was enthusiastic about it?
Mr.Ruby. Oh, yes; he was very enthused. He was going to get started.
Mr.Griffin. Were you able to dissuade him at all from his enthusiasm?
Mr.Ruby. I think so, I think so. I really don’t know. As far as I know, I think I did. I told him it just doesn’t pay to get into it, because the one that was being marketed, if I recall he told me was selling for $3. So he said if he could sell his for $2. it would be tremendous. But I figured out the cost to him about 80 cents and if you sell the jobbers, you have got to give them 50 and 10 off. By the way, I have gone all through this with him but I just want to make it clear. So that means he is going to get 90 cents. In addition they want 2 percent, so you get 88 cents, approximately, and it costs you 80 cents, so you can’t be in business on 8 cents gross profit on an item that you are selling for 88 cents. It is just impossible.
Mr.Griffin. And in which telephone conversation did you have this discussion?
Mr.Ruby. In one of them, not the first one, because I didn’t have all the information then. But after I got all the information, I called him or he called me.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember Jack calling you after the telephone call, a few days after the telephone call that was made in connection with Triangle? Do you remember that telephone call?
Mr.Ruby. Well, I think so, and that is when I told him I think they wanted 45 cents, and that is when I broke down the price structure, that it just didn’t seem feasible to consider manufacturing it if you had to sell it at $2 and I probably told him at that time, I checked into it and it was a flop in Detroit, so it was my opinion it wasn’t good.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack call you in November about anything other than the twistboard?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t think so. I think the only thing we discussed other than—maybe how is the family, you know, how are your kids, which is the general conversation when two brothers talk.
Mr.Griffin. Did he ever call you in connection with Eva’s illness?
Mr.Ruby. Yes, yes; he did mention that, that she was going to have an operation, she was going to have an operation, she had an operation, and he said, “I think you should call her or write her” or something. I don’t know, I may have even called her in the hospital, I really don’t remember, but he said she was feeling very bad, and for me to either write her, send her a card or call her, and I don’t know what I did. I did something but I don’t remember exactly.
Mr.Griffin. While Jack was living in Dallas, had you talked with him about other business ventures that he had, outside of his clubs?
Mr.Ruby. Well, a few years ago I talked to him about, he had a vitamin called Miniron, or something like that. In fact, I tried to discourage him about that, but I couldn’t, and in fact I think if I remember correctly, I sent him some money to try it, but it just didn’t go. It was a vitamin, a liquid vitamin of some kind that he thought was terrific. He was always taking diet pills and stuff like that. He was whatever the name for that is. Anyhow, he went for all kinds of diet remedies that came on the market. But it never seemed to help him much because he liked to eat.
Mr.Griffin. Do you have any recollection of when he was selling these diet pills or these vitamin pills?