Mr.Ruby. Even I went out once to hand out those flyers, you know, “join the union.”
Mr.Griffin. Where did you hand them out and what would you do?
Mr.Ruby. Well, they would come out from work and I would just hand it to them, as they leave the plant, just hand it to them.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever make any personal contacts with members, with employees?
Mr.Ruby. No; never. I just——Mr.Griffin. Were there any other people that you know of who worked in the union with Jack?
Mr.Ruby. I think my brother Hy worked for a little while in the union.
Mr.Griffin. Did Sam work in the union?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t think so. I only went there on very rare occasions, very rare. I may have been to one or two meetings in all. I didn’t get paid for it either, just, you know, kicks just to hand out the flyers, that is all.
Mr.Griffin. Can you think of any other people who were involved in the union?
Mr.Ruby. Well, I know John Martin, he was the president.
Mr.Griffin. He is the fellow who was killed?
Mr.Ruby. No; he shot Leon Cooke.
Mr.Griffin. He shot Leon Cooke. Is John Martin still living?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t know. I know there was another fellow but I can’t think of his name. There was a fellow by the name—I can’t think of their names. They had odd names. Of course, that goes back in the thirties, I think, right in there somewhere. I don’t even remember where it was.
Mr.Griffin. Was Leon Cooke a fellow about your brother’s age?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; I think so.
Mr.Griffin. So Jack would have been in the late twenties at the time that he and Leon formed the union?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t know. I don’t know what year it was even. I don’t even remember.
Mr.Griffin. It was in the late thirties, wasn’t it.
Mr.Ruby. I don’t know. I really don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know of any girls that Jack dated?
Mr.Ruby. In Chicago?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Ruby. Offhand not even one because he was, as I said, 4 years older than I was and we didn’t run around together. I know of the one he went with in Dallas, which was, I think she was—I don’t know if she testified at the trial or not.
Mr.Griffin. That is Alice Nichols?
Mr.Ruby. Alice Nichols.
Mr.Griffin. She is not a Jewish girl, is she?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did it seem to be Jack’s practice to get interested in women who are, what do you call them, shiksas?
Mr.Ruby. No; I really don’t know because I don’t know too much. You see he traveled in a different—I am trying to think. When he was going to Marshall High School that is when you usually start going with girls. I don’t recall those days because I was too young.
Mr.Griffin. What I am interested in exploring with you, if you can in a somewhat objective fashion, is some of the contrast between evidence you have shown us with his obsession with the fact that he was a Jew, and other indications that, for example, his dating girls who were gentiles and his living outside of the home away from the Jewish practices which might indicate that he had some desire to escape his Jewish background. Did you see any evidence of that?
Mr.Ruby. No; that I wouldn’t—because believe it or not, when my mother passed away and also my father, you know, we have to go say services, we are supposed to say services for a year every day and I didn’t keep it up, but he did.
Mr.Griffin. Jack went to services afteryour——
Mr.Ruby. Mother died.
Mr.Griffin. Every day?
Mr.Ruby. Every day as far as I know.
Mr.Griffin. Where was this temple that he attended services at?
Mr.Ruby. Well, there was one, I know,up——
Mr.Griffin. Were these temples in Chicago?
Mr.Ruby. One was in Chicago, I can’t think of the name.
Mr.Griffin. Your mother died while Jack was still in Chicago. When was that?
Mr.Ruby. 1944.
Mr.Griffin. Jack was in the service?
Mr.Ruby. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. How did you know he did that?
Mr.Ruby. He told us he went to services. You can say services there too as long as thechaplain——
Mr.Griffin. Would he have to go before a rabbi or chaplain of some sort?
Mr.Ruby. Really not necessarily; it is not—because they say if it isn’t available, you can still say the prayer.
Mr.Griffin. This could be something he could have done on his bunk, his cot in the Army?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t know. There he had access to a chaplain though because it wasn’t a large camp.
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Ruby. When I say you don’t have access, I am thinking of overseas where it might be a small unit, like where I was there wasn’t a Jewish chaplain.
Mr.Griffin. What I am trying to get at is this occurred while he was in the service. In order for him to properly observe mourning for your mother would he have had to have done something so that somebody else would have to be aware he was doing this other than Jack simply telling them. Would he have done something in his area where he lived or light a candle or would he have gone to a chaplain or gone in some place and prayed where people could have seen him. What would there have been observed by other people?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t know. How can I answer that. I wasn’t with him.
Mr.Griffin. But you know what the requirements are of the Jewish faith to properly observe mourning for people.
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. What would some of the things have been that Jack would have had to have done?
Mr.Ruby. Just say the prayer, to read it out of the book or if you know it from memory, by that time after a while you know it from memory.
Mr.Griffin. And he could have repeated that to himself?
Mr.Ruby. It is possible. But if a rabbi or services are available that is where you usually go. But if you are at a remote place where it isn’t possible to have services then you can say it.
Mr.Griffin. Do you actually recall Jack telling you that he was going to services for your mother?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; definitely.
Mr.Griffin. Where did he tell you that he went?
Mr.Ruby. He just said he was carrying on the services but I don’t remember now. This happened 20 years ago.
Mr.Griffin. What I am trying to get at is your not saying that you recall him telling you he went to a chapel or to a synagogue or a temple.
Mr.Ruby. No; all he said was that he said services.
Mr.Griffin. I see.
Mr.Ruby. But as to where I didn’t think it was at that time necessary to question him.
Mr.Griffin. Are there any other examples of this concern with his religious heritage?
Mr.Ruby. Well, I told you about he read all the books or as many books as he could on the Jewish atrocities, whatever you might call them.
Mr.Griffin. He did this down in Dallas?
Mr.Ruby. He did this in Dallas that I know, my sister told me. In fact, when I went there he had several books.
Mr.Griffin. What kind, do you remember the names of the books?
Mr.Ruby. He had one called “Eva” and “Exodus”, and another one there that he was reading, and then he would give them away after he finished. I can’t think of the other one. It was still there while I was there.
Mr.Griffin. When was this that you observed “Eva” and “Exodus”?
Mr.Ruby. Right after the incident I went down there.
Mr.Griffin. I see. So after the incident he was reading “Eva” and “Exodus”?
Mr.Ruby. No, no; it was before. I saw the books after but he had been reading them before because they were in my sister’s apartment. She had taken everything from his apartment.
Mr.Griffin. So it is your understanding that he had certain religious type books?
Mr.Ruby. Oh, yes.
Mr.Griffin. Books on Jews in the apartment that he was living in?
Mr.Ruby. Right; definitely. In fact, he went out of his way as I stated before, to go and listen to lectures at the synagogue on the Jewish problem and the atrocities in Germany, and they showed films, real detailed films on what actually took place and he made it a point to be there.
Mr.Griffin. When did this occur?
Mr.Ruby. This happened before the incident.
Mr.Griffin. How long before?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t know. I don’t know. But my brother Sam told me about this just last week that when his mother-in-law, his wife’s mother, was down in Dallas, Jack insisted she come along to see these films and hear the lecture.
You see, as I said, I have to get these, some of these things through a third party because I am in Detroit.
Mr.Griffin. Sure, sure. I want to get them straight as to where you got them so we can follow them out.
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall, this is on another subject, that at one time when you were questioned about why Jack and you had a falling out with respect to Earl Products, that you stated that Jack was not spending full time on the business, and that was one of the reasons?
Mr.Ruby. Well, we didn’t think so. This was Sam’s and my opinion.
Mr.Griffin. Can you tell us what was happening?
Mr.Ruby. Well, we wanted him to sell our products that we were manufacturing, and he was, seemed to be always getting involved with selling somebody else’s product. Of course, there was a commission involved or whatever it was, but I didn’t—we didn’t approve of it. We wanted to push our products and so, of course, he and Sam had a real runout or whatever you call it and then we finally decided to buy him out.
Mr.Griffin. What other products was he selling?
Mr.Ruby. Well, I think he was selling costume jewelry. Well, we don’t manufacture that. We wanted him to devote his entire interest into the company.
Mr.Griffin. Would costume jewelry, could it be considered a companion line for anything you were selling. Would he go into the same stores to sell costume jewelry?
Mr.Ruby. You possibly could, you possibly could, but it was our opinion that he should devote all of his time to our products.
Mr.Griffin. What was Jack’s responsibility in Earl Products?
Mr.Ruby. He was actually the sales manager.
Mr.Griffin. Did he have employees working in there?
Mr.Ruby. I was just going to add, he didn’t have any, he was the only one.
Mr.Griffin. He managed himself?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; and he was a good salesman, too.
Mr.Griffin. Didthis——
Mr.Ruby. Anyhow, with leading too we weren’t hitting it off so good, and my sister Eva was asking him to come down to Dallas, so between everything we finally decided to buy him out and he took his money and went down there.
Mr.Griffin. Did his sales activities require him to spend most of his time outside of the place of business?
Mr.Ruby. Of course; oh, yes.
Mr.Griffin. How much of your sales were on a mail-order basis and how much was this direct selling that Jack may have been involved in?
Mr.Ruby. Well, at this time, the time he was handling the sales, there wasvery little mail order. It was mostly accounts that he had secured or we had in one way or another.
Mr.Griffin. What area?
Mr.Ruby. Like Mar-Din.
Mr.Griffin. That was in St. Louis, wasn’t it?
Mr.Ruby. No, no; in Chicago.
Mr.Griffin. In Chicago?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did he travel outside the Chicago area?
Mr.Ruby. Not too much; not too much, if I recall. I don’t recall. I don’t think he traveled too much.
I think, now that I think of it, that was one of our problems. We wanted him to go down or go out of town, to Milwaukee or any of the other cities, even close by, and definitely St. Louis where we eventually sold Katz Drug which is a big and good account for us and they turned out to be a pretty fair account. And anyhow as I said one thing led to another. Eva was wanting him in Dallas and he wasn’t getting along too well with us so it was decided to buy him out.
Mr.Griffin. The only other topic I want to cover with you now is the circumstances behind you changing your name from Rubenstein to Ruby. Did Mr. Hubert cover that with you?
Mr.Ruby. Sort of. Well, first off, there are two reasons. First of all, we were, I think, very conscious of the Jewish name of Rubenstein, and we had worked for another Jewish fellow who we all looked up to, an elderly fellow who had been very successful in business and his name was Stanley Eisenberg and he said, “When you send out mail orders you shouldn’t use a Jewish name because of the—some people won’t order even if they can use the merchandise,” and anyhow he suggested we use a different name, and so we finally decided since they were calling us Ruby anyhow, with that in mind, and business reasons, that is, and we finally decided to—Sam and I did first, you know.
Mr.Griffin. You did.
Mr.Ruby. Yes; and Jack did it down in Dallas.
Mr.Griffin. How much time elapsed between when you and Sam changed your name and Jack changed his?
Mr.Ruby. Gee, I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever discuss with Jack the reasons for his changing his name?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Griffin. Do you have any idea why he changed his name?
Mr.Ruby. No; it never came up. We never discussed it as far as I can remember, we just never discussed that.
Mr.Griffin. Is my understanding correct then that the changing of your name and Sam’s name was directly tied with your activity in connection with Earl Products, and thus since Hyman didn’t have any connection with Earl Products and Jack didn’t have any connection with Earl Products at the time you two changed your name, why there was no reason for those two at that time to change their name?
Mr.Ruby. Well, Hyman never changed his name, as you know.
Mr.Griffin. Yes; I know that.
Mr.Ruby. I really don’t know the reason for Jack. He may have had the same reason but since he did it there, and we never brought it up it just never was brought into our conversations, that I can remember. We may have—at that time it was nothing important to us, and it happened along about 15–16 years ago, I think. I think we changed ours in 1947, I don’t even remember.
Mr.Griffin. I think we can finish this off here now. I want to hand you what has been marked as “Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby, Exhibit No. 3.” This is a copy of a report which was prepared by two FBI agents, White and Lee of an interview they had with you on November 25 in Chicago, which consists of two pages. The pages are numbered at the bottom 171 and 172. I want to hand it to you and ask you if you had a chance to read that?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; I have.
Mr.Griffin. Are there any changes or corrections that you think ought to be made in that?
Mr.Ruby. Well, here in the first paragraph it says, “In 1946 his brothers Jack Ruby” I think, I am not sure of the date. I think it was 1947, and Jack didn’t change his name when we did. He changed it later in Dallas.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Let’s read into the record the part you are talking about. In the second paragraph you are talking about the sentence which reads, “He said that in 1946 his brothers Jack Ruby and Sam Ruby along with himself legally changed their names from Rubenstein to Ruby for business purposes.”
Now the correct date of your changing your name is when?
Mr.Ruby. I think it was 1947.
Mr.Griffin. And in any event Jack did not change his name at the same time that you did?
Mr.Ruby. That is correct.
Mr.Griffin. Okay. Take your time and refer to them—you have notes, refer to them.
Mr.Ruby. Down here in the sixth paragraph it says, “following military service Jack returned to Chicago where he resided for several months and was not employed to his, Earl Ruby’s knowledge,” that is not correct.
When Jack came back from the service we immediately took him in as a partner in Earl Products Co., so that is wrong. And then they said about 1946. I think in 1947 he went to Dallas. However, I am not sure of that. You probably have that date.
I see on this next to the last paragraph where it says Earl Ruby stated he could give no reason why Jack Ruby shot Oswald except Jack is highly—is a highly emotional type and may have thought he was doing everyone a great service, I don’t remember that, the exact words. I don’t think I would have made that statement completely. Imean——
Mr.Griffin. Did you have some feeling at the time that Jack may have thought he was doing a service to the country?
Mr.Ruby. To tell you the truth, I was so upset that I may have made the statement but I am not sure. You know I was—when was this, this was the next day, right, Monday?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Ruby. That is it for this one. Some of them are almost exact duplicates.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to hand you what has been marked as “Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby Exhibit 4.” And that purports to be an interview that Mr. Robichau and Mr. Wilson of the FBI had with you on November 25 in Southfield, Mich. It consists of six pages and they are numbered consecutively at the bottom 173 to 178.
Have you had a chance to read that over?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Would you indicate what changes or corrections should be made thereon?
Mr.Ruby. Well, in the fourth paragraph I am not certain as to whether my father was born in Russia and as to whether my mother was born in Poland. I think my older sisters and brothers know more about that than I do.
Mr.Griffin. Was the experience of your mother and father in Europe a topic which was discussed very often in the home?
Mr.Ruby. My father’s experiences were, in telling about the hardships of it and the persecutions of the Jews.
I have one other correction here.
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Ruby. In the fifth paragraph it states here that Jack was employed by Earl Products after he first left the service. He wasn’t employed. He was a part owner. It clarifies it in the next sentence, however.
Now, on page 2, the third paragraph this states here that I may have said that A. Weinberg was a fourth removed cousin, but I find that that is not so. She never was a cousin of ours.
And then on page 5 in the first paragraph it states that from 1939 to 1942 I wasemployed as a carpenter at building the barracks at Great Lakes. The date is incorrect. I worked there from, on in the year of 1942.
Mr.Griffin. Would you want to take a pen and cross that off and correct it properly and then initial it, initial your deletion there?
Mr.Ruby. In the last sentence on page 6 it states that Earl and his three brothers had their names legally changed from Rubenstein to Ruby during 1947. That is incorrect. It should be Earl and Sam and Earl’s wife, Marge. Shall I change it?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; why don’t you?
Why don’t you sign that on the first page then. Sign Exhibit No. 4.
I will give you Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to sign that.
One other thing that occurred to me before we go on here. We have obtained various birth records and so forth, and in trying to identify which record pertains to which child, I noticed that your parents—actually your given names were Hebrew names.
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Is my understanding correct that your given Hebrew name was Isadore?
Mr.Ruby. No; actually I was, the name listed was, Izzy, on my birth record. Is that what you are referring to?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Ruby. Izzy, I-z-z-y, that is me.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall what the given names of your various sisters are? Could you relate those to us?
Mr.Ruby. No; I couldn’t. Eileen I think was Ida, I think. The others I don’t know. You have to talk to one of the older members of the family.
Mr.Griffin. Incidentally, also in Exhibit No. 3, I noticed that you had, somebody has put some penciled mark numbers, were those your marks and did you wish to comment on those?
Mr.Ruby. Yes, it is just an error there—that should be scrap iron and junk handlers.
Mr.Griffin. All right, it is corrected for the record, you just state it for the record.
Mr.Ruby. Here is a repetition of that other one where it says I stated he was doing every one a great service. I don’t remember saying that and I am just not sure.
Mr.Griffin. All right.
Let me hand you what has been marked as Exhibit No. 5 and has been further marked “Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby” which purports to be a copy of an interview with you also at South Field, Mich., on November 26, 1963, with special agents Robichau and Wilson.
The exhibit consists of six pages, numbered in sequence 11 through 16. I will hand it to you and ask you if you have any corrections that you want to make in that?
Mr.Ruby. Here again on page 5 it states I worked at the building—the barracks at Great Lakes from 1942. It was only during 1942. Shall I change it?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; if you wish.
Do you want to sign Exhibit No. 5?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to hand you what has been marked for identification as “Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby Exhibit No. 6.” This is a copy of an interview which Agent Robichau purports to have had with you on November 27 in Detroit, Mich.
Would you want to look at that and tell us if there are any changes or corrections that you would make?
Mr.Ruby. No; no corrections. Shall I sign it?
Mr.Griffin. All right, fine.
I will hand you what has been marked for identification as “Exhibit No. 7, Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby.” This purports to be a copy of an interview report prepared by Special Agent George Parfet of the FBI. The interview took place with you on November 28 in Chicago. It consists of two pages and it is numbered at the bottom pages 15 and 16.
Would you want to look at that and tell us if there are any changes or corrections that you would care to make?
Mr.Ruby. Here on page 2 it mentioned that I had never heard of Jack being mentally ill or depressed. However, I know he was depressed several years ago.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know that at the time you gave that interview report, gave that interview?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; I knew he was depressed but I didn’t understand it completely. I didn’t know that it was called depression at that time.
Mr.Griffin. How did it appear, how would you have described it at that time?
Mr.Ruby. Well, that he wouldn’t shave and he wouldn’t bathe, and he wouldn’t go out, but at that time I didn’t know what it was called. But after thinking it over, when he came up to Chicago once, he was terribly depressed, as I stated before.
Mr.Griffin. How would you have described him at the time you saw him— what would you have said was the matter with him?
Mr.Ruby. Well, I was just—let me see what words I can use to describe it—I would have said he was disgusted, not knowing that actually he was depressed until I really learned what the word “depressed” means.
Mr.Griffin. Was his attitude one more of hostility or belligerence toward what had happened rather than one of submission?
Mr.Ruby. No; it was one of submission. He wouldn’t go any places as I stated. He didn’t want to wash or clean himself up and I had to more or less force him to get in the shower and things of that sort.
Mr.Griffin. What about the things he said, though. Were these—you used the term “disgust”—did he speak in the manner of someone who was disgusted would speak?
Mr.Ruby. Well, he didn’t even have much to say, if I recall. He didn’t even have much to say. He tried to keep to himself.
Mr.Griffin. Where did he live at that time?
Mr.Ruby. I mean in my presence. In other words, he would go in another room or sit in a chair and just sit there without making—just thinking to himself about whatever was going through his mind. He was listless.
Mr.Griffin. Were you married at that time?
Mr.Ruby. Yes, I was married.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack come and live with you?
Mr.Ruby. No, no.
Mr.Griffin. Where did he live at the time?
Mr.Ruby. He came to the family and that is where I came to see him. In fact, he was so depressed that I took him to try to cheer him up, I had to go to New York for a business trip, a show that was taking place there and I took him for a ride, we were driving anyhow, and I thought it would pep him up a little bit, you know, to go on a trip. But it didn’t help much.
Mr.Griffin. Was your attitude toward him this time one of sympathy or couldn’t you figure out what was eating this guy?
Mr.Ruby. No; I would say he was. I just thought he was disgusted with things, little realizing that he was in a state of depression.
Mr.Griffin. But were you sympathetic toward him at the time?
Mr.Ruby. Oh, yes; as I said, that is why I took him on the trip. I tried to encourage him. I told him “Maybe we can find something for you to get into,” as I mentioned before, “Some business we can get you started in or something.”
However, he decided, as I stated before, to go back to Dallas.
Mr.Griffin. Did he ever tell you why he decided to go back to Dallas?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t recall, he may have, but I can’t recall just now.
I see another, the last paragraph on page 2. I didn’t even remember that conversation with the agent.
Mr.Griffin. Would you read the paragraph?
Mr.Ruby. It states here, “Earl Ruby was specifically asked regarding his residence in New Haven, Conn., in 1940. He has stated that he had never been in New Haven, Conn., in his life and in that period was engaged in the drycleaning business on Cicero Avenue in Chicago.”
Mr.Griffin. Is that statement a correct statement?
Mr.Ruby. When we were selling we used to travel the east coast but I wouldhave only been there—I don’t remember being there, but if I had been there, I would have been there only for a day. I think he asked me if I lived there for any length of time, if I recall, but I am not sure. I don’t recallthis——
Mr.Griffin. Were you in the drycleaning business on Cicero Avenue at that time?
Mr.Ruby. As far as I know, yes; I had an independent cleaning route at that time. I used to call on friends and pick up their cleaning and deliver it right to their home.
Mr.Griffin. You didn’t operate a cleaning plant?
Mr.Ruby. No, no; but this is where I worked out of. Maybe he just cut it short. I brought my cleaning to this plant in Chicago, on Cicero Avenue, in Chicago, they cleaned it and charged me a wholesale price and I added on a profit, of course.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to hand you what has been marked as “Exhibit 8, Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby.” It consists of two pages numbered 210 and 211 and purports to be a copy of a report which Agent George Parfet prepared with respect to that interview he had with you on November 28 at South Field, Mich.
Mr.Ruby. I didn’t sign the other one.
(Earl Ruby Exhibits Nos. 5, 6, 7, and 8 were marked for identification.)
Mr.Griffin. I will state for the record then, you have just signed Exhibit No. 7, and if you will look at Exhibit No. 8, tell us if there are any changes or corrections you would make in that.
Mr.Ruby. Here again it is almost a duplicate of the previous, what do you call it again, number?
Mr.Griffin. Interview report.
Mr.Ruby. What is this?
Mr.Griffin. That is Exhibit No. 8, and this is Exhibit No. 7 that I have here.
Mr.Ruby. The last paragraph again as stated in the previous one. They are almost identical.
Mr.Griffin. Yes; it looks like they are identical copies and they were just included in different places in our materials.
Let me hand it to you then and let me ask you to sign it.
Mr.Ruby. Sign it anyhow?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; Exhibit No. 8.
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Yes; Exhibit No. 8.
I finally hand you what has been marked for identification as “Exhibit No. 9, Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby.” This is a copy of a report which Agent Robichau made with you of an interview he had on December 2, 1963, at Detroit, Mich.
Would you tell us if you have any additions or corrections or changes to make in that?
Mr.Ruby. No; this is correct. That she is not related in any way to our family.
Mr.Griffin. All right.
Now, that concludes all the questions that I have, and I presume that Mr. Hubert has or he would have come back in.
Are there any topics that we haven’t covered that you feel that we ought to—is there anything further that you would like to say? You have got the floor.
Mr.Ruby. Yes; I think, and this took place at the trial, and after the first policeman had testified as to statements made by my brother Jack, that evening when I saw Jack, he told me that he is going to the electric chair.
He said because he never made any of those statements, and now he knows what Wade has in mind, because if Wade wants to send you to the chair he can, and he always does, and that is why he has the record that he has.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember who the first policeman was who testified?
Mr.Ruby. No; I don’t. And he told me on several occasions that he never made the statements the police testified that he did make, and in fact, if the record will be checked, it is proved that the statement that Dean made couldn’t have been true—Officer Dean.
Mr.Griffin. Why do you say that?
Mr.Ruby. Because at the time when he said he had been talking—that Jack made a statement, Jack, he is the one who said Jack told him 2 days before at 4 o’clock, I think the time was, that he stated, that Jack told him that he was going to get Oswald.
At that time Jack was at home with Eva, so Jack couldn’t have made that statement to him, and, of course, this has been brought out in the petition or motion for a new trial, so it is in the official record, so to say.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when Jack talked to you the first night after, or after the first police officer testified, was that first police officer Sergeant Dean, or was that another police officer?
Mr.Ruby. No; that was another police officer. Dean was the last police officer, if I recall correctly.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack tell you what he did say?
Mr.Ruby. No; but he said he never made those statements.
Mr.Griffin. DidJack——
Mr.Ruby. He repeated it several times on different occasions. He said, “I never made that—any of those statements and I know how Wade operates. He is going to send me to the chair. Now I know what he has got in mind.”
Mr.Griffin. Let the record reflect that I am going to give you a copy which we have made of your three-page statement which you have entered into the record and which is marked as Exhibit No. 2, and also a copy of Exhibit No. 1 which we have marked.
Mr.Ruby. You are giving that back to me because I have a copy of Exhibit No. 1.
Mr.Griffin. You can have that copy back.
Mr.Ruby. OK.
Mr.Griffin. Are there any other matters that you think ought to be covered that we haven’t covered?
Mr.Ruby. No; I can’t think of any. I think we have covered them all.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you one last question which I started to ask some hours ago.
That is this: Between the time you first saw Jack in Dallas, and the last time you saw him in Dallas, what changes did you see in him, if any?
Mr.Ruby. I think as I stated, he lost probably 25 or 30 pounds, and he couldn’t seem to grasp or understand conversations or questions. I have talked to him many times on the phone since then, and he still thinks—in fact as of now, he don’t even think I am alive. He thinks they killed me and my family, my children.
Mr.Griffin. When you first saw him in Dallas did he have these—did you have any trouble communicating with him, did he show any lack of understanding when you first saw him?
Mr.Ruby. No, no; it wasn’t—yes; I must change that. There was a slight hesitancy on his part to understand questions that I put to him. He would shake his head when I would ask him questions sometimes and as though he didn’t understand, and these were just ordinary questions of routine matters, just about the trial or Belli. We discussed Belli, and he said, even at the beginning there he said, “They don’t talk to me. Why don’t they talk to me longer,” and yet Belli was there for hours.
Mr.Griffin. This wasn’t the very first time you saw him. This was on an occasion later?
Mr.Ruby. That is right. It had to be later.
Mr.Griffin. All right. I have nothing more. And if you have nothing more I want to thank you very much for taking this time for us.
Mr.Ruby. I hope I can help you and I hope you can help us.
Mr.Griffin. We want to assemble all the facts that we possibly can and prepare a report that will be as fair and as impartial as can be.
Mr.Ruby. You want me to check on that professor at Northwestern University, correct?
Mr.Griffin. And if you would give us the names of those employees.
Mr.Ruby. The list I have on that. I can possibly get the information as to where my brother received the psychiatric treatment when he was about 10 years old. Do you want me to send that to you?
Mr.Griffin. If you would get us that we would appreciate it, yes.
Mr.Ruby. Shall I mail it just here the same address?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.