Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. You don’t recall any other time, is that correct, Mr. Ruby?
Mr.Ruby. Yes. I thought I said two of them—and I thought it meant with my fists.
Mr.Herndon. Well, I meant with a weapon, when you actually hit someone with an implement in your hand.
Mr.Ruby. You thought I was feminine, didn’t you, Chief? Why did you lock me up in that tank? [Addressing Chief Jailer Holman.]
Mr.Herndon. Mr. Ruby, when I asked you, “Do you have any sisters?” I asked that in the plural—you have more than one sister?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. You have several sisters?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. How many sisters do you have?
Mr.Ruby. Four.
Mr.Herndon. Did anything in particular come to your mind when I asked you that question?
Mr.Ruby. No—not like that other question.
Mr.Herndon. What question?
Mr.Ruby. The one about “Have you ever been married?”
Mr.Herndon. Yes, I recall.
Mr.Ruby. Do I sound like a man with an unsound mind to you?
Mr.Herndon. As I said before, Mr. Ruby, I’m not qualified to answer that question.
Mr.Ruby. Oh—oh.
Mr.Herndon. You have been cooperative as far as answering my questions and proceeding with the examination.
(At this point Mr. Specter left the room and shortly thereafter Messrs. Alexander and Tonahill returned to the room.)
Mr.Herndon. We can proceed and move pretty fast as soon as Mr. Specter comes back. Just sit and relax. Would you like me to take any of these things off?
Mr.Ruby. No, no.
Mr.Herndon. Are you comfortable?
Mr.Ruby. You’re not going to ask me any more questions? Do you want to go through that stuff there?
Mr.Herndon. I think I had better wait for Mr. Specter to be here. I don’t want to proceed without him. Can I get you a drink of water?
Mr.Ruby. No. Can we talk about certain things?
Mr.Herndon. I suggest you wait until Mr. Specter returns.
Mr.Ruby. Is there anything on your mind, Bill, off the record?
Mr.Alexander. I think with that Cuban thing cleared up and with an opportunity to answer a question onthat——
Mr.Ruby. How about the underworld?
Mr.Alexander. Well, he’s going to ask you that, if he hasn’t already.
Mr.Ruby. There were a lot of phone calls, as you recall. I’m sure you know that and there should be a specific way to ask me—“What was the purpose of all those calls?”
Mr.Alexander. Well, you see, that wouldn’t record on the machine. The question would have to be, “Did any telephone calls have any connection with the shooting of Oswald?”
Mr.Ruby. Yes, but still, when you have so many calls, you still want to know why you called people.
Mr.Alexander. Well, all your telephone calls were either business or personal, weren’t they?
Mr.Ruby. That’s right, and the other question you asked about Oswald—you know?
Mr.Alexander. “Did any of these calls have any connection with the shooting of Oswald?”
Mr.Ruby. No. How about my trip to Havana?
Mr.Alexander. Has that been asked yet?
Mr.Herndon. That hasn’t been asked.
Mr.Alexander. “Did your trip to Havana have any connection with the shooting of Oswald, however remote?”
Mr.Ruby. Have I ever had any business dealings—I want them to know my relationship.
Mr.Alexander. “Have you ever had any political or business connection with Castro or Cuba?”
Mr.Ruby. That’s a good question. Or, why did I make that trip to Havana?
Mr.Alexander. “Was your trip to Havana personal or business?” I think that’s overlapping that Cuban deal.
Mr.Ruby. Yes, but here’s the thing. When people ask me—they say, “Jack, you went to Havana, Cuba” and I say, “I went there for a vacation.” They say, “How long did you stay?” When I say, “8 days,”—you somehow have got to answer specifically that it was a vacation, because a person can be very evasive and say he went for a vacation but yet had other dealings there.
Mr.Alexander. “Was your trip to Havana purely for vacation and pleasure?”
Mr.Ruby. That’s right.
Mr.Alexander. Jack, my memory is just vague—you’ve never been to Mexico?
Mr.Ruby. I never have been to Mexico, but Bill, you know a lot of questions to ask me, I’m sure you know, that I’d like to get cleared up.
Mr.Alexander. Well, you never have been interested in politics, as far as I know?
Mr.Ruby. What I was doing down at that News Building—what was I doing down there Friday—I want that question asked.
(At this point Mr. Specter returned to the room.)
Mr.Tonahill. That’s kind of a belabored question, Jack?
Mr.Ruby. Joe, you don’t believe that.
Court Reporter.I want to be sure I heard Mr. Ruby’s answer to Mr. Alexander’s question a little while ago?
Mr.Ruby. You want to hear that again?
Court Reporter.I didn’t quite hear your answer to Mr. Alexander’s question, “Did any of these calls have any connection with the shooting of Oswald?”
Mr.Ruby. Oh, you’re taking down what I’m saying? I didn’t know you were taking that down.
Mr.Specter. Yes; we’re taking everything down.
Mr.Ruby. Oh—well, give me the question again.
Court Reporter.This was when Mr. Alexander asked you, “Did any of these calls have any connection with the shooting of Oswald?” and what was your answer to that question?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Court Reporter.Thank you.
Mr.Ruby. Are you putting down the questions I’ve been asking myself?
Court Reporter.Yes; everything you’ve been saying.
Mr.Ruby. Voluntarily—correct?
Court Reporter.Oh, yes. Just like you say them.
Mr.Ruby. Okay.
Mr.Specter. We are putting it down in the record, Mr. Ruby, just like you’re saying it.
Odell, can you bring me up-to-date, I’ve been out of the room.
Court Reporter.Mr. Alexander has been asking him certain questions that might be askedabout——
Mr.Ruby. About that Havana, Cuba trip.
Court Reporter.And had he been to Mexico, and had he been in politics, and Mr. Alexander said to his knowledge he had not been interested in politics, and the purpose of his trip to Cuba, whether it was for business or pleasure, and I believe that is what was covered.
Mr.Ruby. The most important question—you haven’t asked me yet—why did I shoot Oswald?
Mr.Alexander. Jack, they can’t ask that kind of question for this machine. They can only ask you—was it for a certain purpose. It has to be a “Yes” or “No” answer.
Mr.Ruby. The point is—if I was carried away emotionally, and because I felt that, it sounds so unbelievable. Why shouldn’t I be asked a question—why—what motivated me to do it?
Mr.Specter. Mr. Ruby, answer now the question, “Why did you shoot Oswald?” and then we will turn that around into a question to ask you for a “Yes” or “No” answer.
Mr.Ruby. At the particular moment, after watching television allthat——
Mr.Fowler. Jack, let me interject right now, again, as your attorney—I advise you not to answer this question.
Mr.Ruby. Clayton, I’m sorry, I’ve got to answer it. I’ve got to, because, believe me, it means an awful lot to me. I didn’t want—I felt so carried away—that at that particular time of the great tragedy, I felt somehow in my little bit of a way I could save Mrs. Kennedy the ordeal of coming back for trial here.
Mr.Specter. All right, fine, Mr. Ruby. That’s the same answer to that general question that you gave when the Commission heard your testimony, and we shall phrase that in an appropriate question for the polygraph examination. Now, will you proceed, Mr. Herndon, with our next series, please?
Mr.Herndon. Do you want me to rehearse the ones that are prepared?
Mr.Specter. Yes; just our prepared series, and we will take these in a sequence and we will cover everything else later.
Mr.Herndon. All right, I’ll go over these for you again, Mr. Ruby, so that you understand the intent of the question and what it means.
“Did you get a Wall Street Journal at Southwestern Drug Store during the week before the assassination?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. “Was the Wall Street Journal addressed to a Mr. Bradshaw?”
Mr.Ruby. I don’t know.
Mr.Herndon. Well, that one, we’re going to have to rephrase. “Do you know if the Wall Street Journal was addressed to Mr. Bradshaw?”
Mr.Ruby. I haven’t read a Wall Street Journal in the longest time—in years, probably.
Mr.Herndon. Do you wish to keep that question in, Mr. Specter?
Mr.Tonahill. Jack, was there a man named Bradshaw, your landlord?
Mr.Ruby. No; Houston Nichols was my landlord, but I know a Bradshaw. He used to be in the pinball game machine business.
Mr.Tonahill. A jukebox man?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; everybody knows him.
Mr.Specter. What is his first name, Mr. Ruby?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t know, but he owned a liquor store and he’s a pretty successful businessman.
Mr.Specter. Was a Wall Street Journal addressed to Mr. J. E. Bradshaw, dated November 16, 1963, in your car at any time?
Mr.Ruby. No, sir.
Mr.Specter. Have you ever heard of any such Wall Street Journal having been found in your car?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Specter. We will rephrase that question too. Let’s try this: “Do you have any knowledge of a Wall Street Journal addressed to Mr. J. E. Bradshaw being found in your car?”
Mr.Ruby. No; did they find one somewhere in my car?
Mr.Specter. Proceed, please, Mr. Herndon.
Mr.Herndon. “Did you or any of your friends telephone the FBI in Dallas between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?”
Mr.Ruby. How could I—I was incarcerated? Oh, Sunday morning?
Mr.Herndon. Some people might refer to that as Saturday night.
Mr.Ruby. I don’t know. I know I went to bed about 1:30, so I can’t answer that.
Mr.Specter. Make that “To yourknowledge”——
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Specter. “To your knowledge, did any of your friends”—do so and so?
Mr.Herndon. I think in that way you should be able to answer “Yes” or “No”.
“Did you or any of your friends telephone the sheriff’s office between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. Again, I can rephrase that—“To your knowledge—” if you wish?
Mr.Specter. Make it—“Did you or any of your friends, to your knowledge, phone the sheriff’s office?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. And then, some of these questions I will ask you again here, such as, “Did you previously live in San Francisco?”
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. I understand you did.
I’m going to ask you this question, which will help me, and that is, “In your dealings, Mr. Ruby, as a nightclub operator, at any time have you ever overcharged a customer?” I assume there are some times when you probably are at the cash register, is that correct, and you are handling the transaction of money with customers or with the bills.
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. You understand what I mean by “overcharge”?
Mr.Ruby. We have a very lucrative business in champagne there, the kind of business that—Bill Alexander knows about it—they get merchandise received for what they get. It’s quite lucrative and that’s one way you can survive, I guess.
Mr.Herndon. I’ll just simply ask the question, “Did you ever overcharge a customer?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. I’ll probably ask you questions for your identity, like “Is your name Jack Ruby?” at the beginning of these series.
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. Let’s see, gentlemen, I believe we’ve gone over all these questions,and I’m going to ask you also as a matter of record on the test—are you tired?
Mr.Ruby. No; as a matter of fact, I’m feeling my best right now.
Mr.Herndon. You feel all right.
Those are the questions we’re going to ask.
(Reporter’s note: 7:05 p.m.)
Mr.Specter. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill left the room.
Mr.Herndon. All right, Mr. Ruby, I’ll get this machine to going again, and we will get started on series No. 6. Mr. Ruby, could you sit up a little straighter? When you slouch over like that, I’m not getting the tracing I want on the reading. Now, that’s much better. [At this time Mr. Herndon snapped his fingers.] Look straight ahead again, Mr. Ruby.
Mr.Ruby. All right.
Mr.Herndon. I will let you know when I’m going to start the test, and if you will answer the questions again, simply and truthfully, “Yes” or “No.”
If I come to any one of these that you feel like you are not sure how to answer it and you don’t want to answer it “Yes” or “No,” once again just refrain from talking and we will discuss the question at the end of the series.
Mr.Ruby. All right. I’ll remain silent, huh?
Mr.Herndon. Yes; remain silent.
(Reporter’s note: 7:08 p.m.)
Mr.Herndon. The test will now begin.
“Is your name Jack Ruby?”
Mr.Ruby. “Yes.”
Mr.Herndon. “Did you get a Wall Street Journal at the Southwestern Drug Store during the week before the assassination?”
Mr.Ruby. “No.”
Mr.Herndon. “Are you tired?”
Mr.Ruby. “No.”
Mr.Herndon. “Do you have any knowledge of a Wall Street Journal addressed to Mr. J. E. Bradshaw?”
Mr.Ruby. “No.”
Mr.Herndon. “Did you previously live in San Francisco?”
Mr.Ruby. “Yes.”
Mr.Herndon. “To your knowledge, did any of your friends or did you telephone the FBI in Dallas between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?”
Mr.Ruby. “No.”
Mr.Herndon. “Did you ever overcharge a customer?”
Mr.Ruby. “No.”
Mr.Herndon. “Did you or any of your friends to your knowledge telephone the sheriff’s office between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning.”
Mr.Ruby. “No.”
Mr.Herndon. I think that series is over and I will release the pressure.
(Reporter’s note: 7:10 p.m.)
Mr.Ruby. Are they that important—those questions? I know more important ones than that. Of course—I’m kidding.
Mr.Herndon. We have some more coming.
Mr. Ruby, has a customer by any chance ever claimed that they were overcharged at your place? Have you ever had any problems along that line?
Mr.Ruby. Oh, yes—we have problems with waitresses and big bills.
Mr.Herndon. Other than what you told us about the Wall Street Journal, is there anything else that came to your mind with regard to this Wall Street Journal question?
Mr.Ruby. As a matter of fact, the question you asked me is so foreign tome——
Mr.Herndon. In other words, you are completely unaware of the Wall Street Journal situation?
Mr.Ruby. I don’t know how it ever came to be there.
Mr.Herndon. That completes that series.
(Reporter’s note: 7:12 p.m.)
Mr.Specter. Let the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander returned to the room.
Would you now proceed, Mr. Herndon, to the next series, and we’ll go through those as rapidly as you can.
Mr.Herndon. Mr. Ruby. I’ll just read these right down the line, and if you have any question, then interrupt me. Otherwise, I’ll just keep going.
Mr.Ruby. All right.
Mr.Herndon. “Do you intend to answer the questions truthfully?”
Mr.Ruby(no response).
Mr.Herndon. “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on Friday, November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. “Do you attend the synagogue regularly?”
Mr.Ruby. No—not of late, because of my businesses and my sister was ill and I had to help at both places—I had to run both places.
Mr.Herndon. All right, If you feel it is proper, you can answer that question.
Mr.Ruby. This was a special occasion, this Friday night—I wanted to go there because of this tragedy happening.
Mr.Herndon. Very fine. The way I mean that question is—do you attend the synagogue regularly and at every usual service?
Mr.Ruby. Well, yes—on high holidays and when my father passed away, I went there consistently for 11 months; morning and evening.
Mr.Herndon. “Did you go to the synagogue that Friday night?” Now, “that Friday night”—you know the night we’re talking about?
Mr.Ruby. Friday night.
Mr.Herndon. The night of the assassination?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. I’m going to ask you this question—it’s simple and short: “Do you pray?”
Mr.Ruby. Not now, because it’s hopeless. I did.
Mr.Herndon. You can answer it “Yes” or “No” when the question comes.
Mr.Ruby. Pardon me—I take it back—I do pray. I say certain prayers.
Mr.Herndon. “Did you see Oswald in the Dallas jail on a Friday night?”
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. “Were you at one time employed by a union?”
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday midnight press conference?”
Mr.Ruby. Let’s have that again?
Mr.Herndon. “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday midnight press conference?”
Mr.Ruby. You mean at the police station? No.
Mr.Herndon. Just so we have it clear—what we mean hereis——
Mr.Ruby. You mean in my possession?
Mr.Herndon. Yes.
Mr.Specter. Could you insert in there—“at the jail”—“did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday midnight press conference at the jail?”
Mr.Alexander. If you put it in his car or on his person, I think he can answer it better.
Mr.Ruby. No—because I recall when I first said I did, and then I changed it later.
Mr.Herndon. Mr. Ruby, so you understand what I mean when I say “Did you have a gun with you?” I mean on the person.
I’m going to ask this question which one of the gentlemen recommended, and it is, “Have you told the Warren Commission the entire truth?”
Mr.Ruby. Yes; and I may have left out certain things because I was a little—I wasn’t as calm as I am now, so in reality, certain things I could have said, I’m sure in my frame of mind now I would be able to do it better, but I told the truth at the time.
Mr.Specter. Perhaps we could rephrase it and say, “Is everything you told the Warren Commission the truth?”
Mr.Ruby. Yes; I can say that.
Mr.Herndon. The question will be then, as Mr. Specter put it, “Is everything you told the Warren Commission the entire truth?”
Mr.Ruby. Yes, sir.
Mr.Herndon. Any questions, Mr. Ruby?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. Fine; I will proceed.
(Reporter’s note: 7:15 p.m.)
Mr.Herndon. For the record, this will be series No. 7.
Mr.Specter. Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have now left the room.
Mr.Ruby. I wonder why Mr. Tonahill is here. He’s not my attorney. Clayton, is Joe Tonahill representing me?
Mr.Fowler. Well Jack, in some capacity, I think he is still involved.
Mr.Ruby. Well—yes and no.
Mr.Fowler. But please don’t worry about it at this time. He is here.
Mr.Herndon. Mr. Ruby, do you mind if I tighten the rubber tube on your chest just a slight bit more?
Mr.Ruby. Make it as tight as you want it. I want to get it right.
Mr.Herndon. No; I don’t want to make it too tight, I want to make it comfortable.
Mr.Ruby(addressing Mr. Holman). Are you coming to work tomorrow? I don’t know where you’ll find me. How about you, chief?
Mr.Holman. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. All right, now just breathe naturally and sit up a little bit straighter. That’s good. That’s fine, Mr. Ruby.
(Reporter’s note: 7:15 p.m.)
Mr.Herndon. Just relax. [At this point Mr. Herndon snapped his fingers twice.]
I will tell you once again when the test will begin. Answer the questions truthfully “Yes” or “No.” Try to sit perfectly relaxed and try not to move. Look straight ahead, if you will, Mr. Ruby.
Did you just have a gas pain or something trouble you?
Mr.Ruby. No; nothing.
Mr.Herndon. All right, relax. We will now begin.
(Reporter’s note: 7:18 p.m.)
Mr.Herndon. “Do you intend to answer these questions truthfully?”
Mr.Ruby. “Yes; I do.”
Mr.Herndon. Just answer the questions “Yes” or “No,” please.
Mr.Ruby. OK.
Mr.Herndon. “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on Friday, November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?”
Mr.Ruby. “No.”
Mr.Herndon. “Do you attend the synagogue regularly?”
Mr.Ruby. How can I answer that one?
Mr.Herndon. Just relax. “Did you go to the synagogue that Friday night?”
Mr.Ruby. “Yes”.
Mr.Herndon. “Do you pray?”
Mr.Ruby. “Yes”.
Mr.Herndon. “Did you see Oswald in the Dallas jail on Friday night?”
Mr.Ruby. “Yes”.
Mr.Herndon. “Were you at one time employed by a union?”
Mr.Ruby. “Yes”.
Mr.Herndon. “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday midnight press conference at the jail?”
Mr.Ruby. “No”.
Mr.Herndon. “Is everything you told the Warren Commission the entire truth?”
Mr.Ruby. “Yes”.
Mr.Herndon. That series is over. Just sit still for a moment, Mr. Ruby, and I will release the pressure on your arm, and you may now move.
(Reporter’s note: 7:21 p.m.)
Mr.Herndon. At the beginning of that series, Mr. Ruby, you displayed alittle nervousness and a little tension. Perhaps it was the question I asked with regard to the synagogue. Did that upset you in any way?
Mr.Ruby. Because—you’re ashamed to admit you haven’t been going regular—yet, you don’t want to come out with a blunt answer “No”—it makes you sort of an atheist, and I didn’t want to answer it that way, but I do go to the high holidays, but going regular and going to the high holidays are two different ways of going. People that go regular go every Friday night and pretty regular during the week, but my hours were entirely different. I mean—I’m trying to explain that to you.
Mr.Herndon. Yes; that’s what I want you to do. Go ahead, sir.
Mr.Ruby. I could say “Yes” and I would be lying to you saying “Yes”. Anyway, the last couple of years—the last year and a half or 2 years have been very tough to me businesswise and I’ve stayed pretty close, outside the high holidays.
Mr.Herndon. Did that question disturb you in any regard when I asked, “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on Friday——”
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. “Before you went to the synagogue?” You did show some reaction, will you tell me that, sir?
Mr.Ruby. Because I knew that some man in the trial said I did come down there, and naturally, that came flashing into my mind.
Mr.Herndon. Was this some man at the trial?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. Did he testify?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; Mr. John Rutledge. He said I was down there earlier, when I wasn’t—and the association of this man came to my mind. Can you ask me that over again?
Mr.Herndon. I don’t think I have to, Mr. Ruby. I wanted to get your explanation of why. Did you feel a reaction to that question?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; because it’s like the Wall Street Journal question—when you asked me that. I get nervous too. When they said they found it in my car, there must be some reason that it was found in my car, when I know I never did see this particular paper.
Mr.Herndon. Well, at this trial Mr. John Rutledge’s testimony conflicted with what you had said, is that correct?
Mr.Specter. Not what he said, Mr. Herndon. He didn’t testify.
Mr.Ruby. He testified emphatically—it looked like I was trying to find out who this Oswald was, and if I went down there more than once.
Mr.Herndon. I see. You did feel the reaction on that question?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. I think we can proceed on to the next series.
Mr.Specter. We’re now at series 8, correct?
Mr.Herndon. The next series will be 8, correct.
(Reporter’s note: 7:23 p.m.)
Mr.Specter. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have returned now.
Mr.Herndon. Are you all right, Mr. Ruby?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. We shall continue, and these are questions we want to put to you for this next series.
“Have you ever knowingly attended any meetings of the Communist Party or any other group that advocates violent overthrow of the Government?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. Now, is that question too long for you to answer it clearly?
Mr.Ruby. No; no.
Mr.Herndon. Of course, there are two parts there—the Communist Party or any other group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government—do you understand the question?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; very much so.
Mr.Herndon. And then I will ask you, “Did you legally change your last name?”
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. I’m going to ask you again at the beginning of the test, “Is your last name Ruby?” I’m going to ask, “Do you know if any of your immediate family or any close friend is a member of the Communist Party?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. “Were you in the Army Air Corps?”
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. “Do you know if any of your immediate family or any close friend is a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Specter. Let’s rephrase those, Mr. Herndon. “To your knowledge, is any member of your family——”
Mr.Herndon. Rather than “Do you know——”.
Mr.Ruby. Why don’t you put it stronger—ask me the question without—to my knowledge—the answer is “No”. When you say—to my knowledge—you leave an opening there.
Mr.Tonahill. Say—“Is any member of your family amember”——
Mr.Specter. We will take that and make it categorical—without the prefix.
Mr.Ruby. In other words, I don’t want any opening for any doubt that there is.
Mr.Herndon. Both those questions I started, “Do you know,”—I’m going to just start the question—“Is any member of your family”—et cetera.
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. Is that all right with you, Mr. Ruby?
Mr.Ruby. No, no; emphatically.
Mr.Herndon. Here again, “Is any close friend or any member of your immediate family,”—I will have to change this one. I shall ask the question this way, unless you have reason to object. “Do you know if any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attended a meeting of the Communist Party?”
Mr.Ruby. In other words, if I say I know theydid——
Mr.Herndon. Do you have knowledge, in other words?
Mr.Ruby. No; not knowledge—you’re putting me in a spot there. Repeat it.
Mr.Herndon. Let me ask this question the way I composed it originally. “Do you know if any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attended a meeting of the Communist Party?”
Mr.Ruby. Yes. Meaning—I know they didn’t.
Mr.Herndon. That’s a very valid point.
Mr.Specter. Let’s rephrase it then—“Did any member of your immediate family or any close friend ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. How do you want that, Mr. Specter?
Mr.Specter. “Did any member of your immediate family or any close friend ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. I just had it slightly different. “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?” Is that all right?
Mr.Specter. That phraseology is satisfactory.
Mr.Herndon. Now, there’s one other question here and this one is a little bit long, and we might want to discuss this question so Mr. Ruby will understand it perfectly. “Do you know if any close friend or any member of your immediate family has ever attended a meeting of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”
Mr.Ruby. Yes; I know that they didn’t.
Mr.Specter. Let’s rephrase the question, leaving out the “Do youknow”——
Mr.Herndon. So that it will now be, “Did any—et cetera.”
Mr.Specter. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. All right, the question will read: “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. Those are the questions, unless Mr. Ruby has some question on them.
Mr.Specter. Let the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander are now out of the room and we may proceed with this series.
(Reporter’s note. 7:28 p.m.)
Mr.Herndon. For the record, this is series No. 8.
All right, Mr. Ruby, I shall now put some pressure in the arm cuff and if you will look straight ahead, sir, and answer the questions truthfully “Yes” or “No,” and I will tell you when I am going to begin asking questions.
The test will now begin.
“Is your last name Ruby?”
Mr.Ruby. “Yes.”
Mr.Herndon. “Have you ever knowingly attended any meetings of the Communist Party or any other group that advocates violent overthrow of the Government?”
Mr.Ruby. “No.”
Mr.Herndon. “Did you legally change your last name?”
Mr.Ruby. “Yes.”
Mr.Herndon. “Is any member of your immediate family or any close friend, a member of the Communist Party?”
Mr.Ruby. “No.”
Mr.Herndon. “Were you in the Army Air Corps?”
Mr.Ruby. “Yes.”
Mr.Herndon. “Is any member of your immediate family or any close friend a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”
Mr.Ruby. “No.”
Mr.Herndon. Look straight ahead, please, sir. “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?”
Mr.Ruby. “No.”
Mr.Herndon. “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”
Mr.Ruby. “No.”
Mr.Herndon. That series is over. If you will relax, Mr. Ruby, I will release the pressure on your arm.
(Reporter’s note: 7:33 p.m.)
Mr.Herndon. I know these questions were a little long, but I feel that you got the intent of them all right.
Mr.Ruby. Sure; I did.
Mr.Herndon. That will complete series No. 8.
Mr.Specter. Let the record show that we are now going to take a very short recess, and resume in just a few moments.
Mr.Herndon. Would you like to take this off just a minute and stand up a little bit, unless you prefer me to leave it on?
Mr.Ruby. All right.
(Reporter’s note: Recess began 7:33 p.m. During the recess Mr. Fowler and Mr. Ruby conferred out of the hearing of all in the room.)
Mr.Specter. It is now 7:55 p.m. and may the record show that we have taken a 20-minute recess and have now reconvened for the last session.
Mr.Ruby. You’re not going to ask about the phone calls?
Mr.Specter. Those are going to be covered, Mr. Ruby.
Mr.Ruby. I know you are for me, Joe, I know.
Mr.Specter. Let us proceed at this point, Mr. Herndon, with the next series of questions.
Mr.Herndon. Are you tired, Mr. Ruby?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. Do you feel all right?
Mr.Ruby. Fine.
Mr.Herndon. We shall then continue. I’m going to read off a good numberof questions here, and I’m going to ask them in a series called 9 and a series called 9a.
Mr.Ruby. All right.
Mr.Herndon. And I’m not going to interject any of these other minor questions. These are all direct questions and I want to make sure that you understand what they are.
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. “Did you ever meet Oswald at your post office box?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. “Did you use your post office mailbox to do any business with Mexico or Cuba?”
Mr.Ruby. No. Pardon me—why don’t you say, “Did you ever meet him at the post office or at the club?” Wouldn’t that be good too?
Mr.Specter. We have asked you if you ever knew him before, and now we’re focusing on this.
Mr.Ruby. Oh—“How many times did he come up to the club?”—that’s something else. Also, somebody said that they saw Tippit, I, this Mr. Lane stated that he saw Tippit, myself, and Oswald at the club—so go ahead, I don’t want to throw you off.
Mr.Specter. Well, we will add a question there at that point, such as this: “Did you ever meet with Officer Tippit and Oswald at your club?”
Mr.Herndon. Do you want that “Oswald and” or “or”?
Mr.Specter. Yes; we do. Use “and.”
Mr.Ruby. The first thing about that post office box—how do we know whether it’s really authentic or the man had the box there or not? It could have been placed there at a later date?
Mr.Alexander. It was right, Jack. He had it. I saw the key myself and it had “X” number on the box.
Mr.Ruby. How come it never come out before then? Why didn’t it come out still before that?
Mr.Alexander. It did.
Mr.Ruby. No; it didn’t come out until a long time—until just recently. It just came out about a week ago.
Mr.Alexander. They just didn’t feature it—it was just overlooked. I saw the key that night.
Mr.Ruby. But Bill, I know one thing—I know that box could have been purchased at a later date, after Oswald’s death and could make it look like it’s close to mine; I know that.
Mr.Specter. Well, the situation there isn’t really directly germane here.
Mr.Ruby. It looks very bad for me, though, I know that.
Mr.Alexander. No; Jack, I saw the key Friday night.
Mr.Specter. We will cover the subject matter here, so you will have a chance under the polygraph examination to cover it.
Mr.Ruby. You probably saw the key, but I know the affiliation with the Government, that you can always get a box at a later date, if you wanted to do that.
Mr.Alexander. Jack, on Friday night that key was photographed, inventoried,and——
Mr.Ruby. What Friday night?
Mr.Alexander. The Friday night of the assassination.
Mr.Ruby. You mean it was known—the number of the box—that Friday night?
Mr.Alexander. Yes, sir; sure was.
Mr.Ruby. Did the public know about it and everybody else?
Mr.Alexander. I’m sure they did.
Mr.Ruby. All right; go ahead.
Mr.Herndon. I will proceed, Mr. Ruby. “Did you do business with Castro Cuba?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. “Was your trip to Cuba solely for pleasure?”
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. “Did you keep $2,200 in cash on you because you didn’t have a chance to get to the bank?” Is that question clear?
Mr.Ruby. Let me go off the record. This is going to be ad libbing, Miss, so can you hold it off on this? Can you hold it off or do you have to put it down?
Court Reporter.Mr. Ruby, you have to ask that man over there—Mr. Specter.
Mr.Ruby. All right.
Mr.Specter. Do you want to go off the record, Mr. Ruby?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Specter. All right, off the record at this point.
(Explanation by Mr. Ruby at this point regarding the $2,200 cash item previously mentioned—off the record.)
Mr.Specter. Back on the record. Mr. Ruby, that’s a perfectly good explanation, and I think it would be better if we put that on the record as to this point, if it’s all right with you.
Mr.Ruby. Yes; but it’s too crazy, mixed up, the way I was saying it.
Mr.Specter. Well, essentially what you’re saying makes good sense. What you’re saying is that you don’t want to have it in a condition where somebody can levy on it and get ahold of it before your creditors got it.
Mr.Ruby. Well. I had the total cash for both clubs, but then, this was Friday night. Now, knowing my payroll at the Carousel runs to $1,600 or $1,400 on a Sunday night, and the Vegas Club on Saturday night because we close Sunday, consequently that money would be absorbed completely in another night or two.
Mr.Specter. Mr. Ruby, that makes good sense. I think that in view of what your answer has been, it is preferable for us to put it on the record rather than to have any suggestion that anything that has been off the record is in anyway damaging or that we’re keeping anything off the record that ought to be on the record.
Mr.Ruby. Do you want me to go through that again, now? Do you want me to go through what I said to you now?
Mr.Specter. That’s right. Now, Miss Odell Oliver, will you go on the record with Mr. Ruby now, and since Mr. Ruby has made a brief explanation with regard to the last question, and at my suggestion he is willing to put it on the record, and he will now repeat the substance of what he has previously said.
Mr.Ruby. All right. Due to my sister being ill and away from running the Vegas Club, I had in my possession for both clubs for operation, for payrolls and everything else, et cetera, et cetera.
Just a week prior to that I had purchased a safe which I knew it was necessary to have, and we already had—my maintenanceman had built the forms for the safe, and we wanted further information as to where to place this safe in the club where it would be safest where burglars couldn’t get at it. We called a Mr. Joe Cody of the police department to advise us where to place the thing. Consequently the safe had not been placed in cement as yet, and I had been carrying the total amount of cash for both clubs, the total capital, which include my purchases if there were to be any made, and the payroll for both clubs, and any accumulated excise tax money from the beginning of the last quarter for both clubs. So, hence, that money belonged solely to the operation of the Vegas Club and the Carousel.
Mr.Specter. Mr. Ruby, then we will rephrase that question to this and simply state—“Have you now told the truth about why you carried $2,200 in cash?”
Mr.Ruby. Yes; but you have a reason for asking me that—whether that was somebody else’s money or something—yes. All that money is specifically in relationship to the operation of both clubs.
Mr.Specter. Well, we could rephrase it, “Have you now told the truth concerning why you carried around $2,200 in cash?” and we will cover the substance of the matter in that question.
Mr.Ruby. In other words, you don’t want to leave it in your apartment because somebody might break in, but you feel it’s safe, especially if I’m armed anyway, not that I can handle a gun that well, or whatever it may be, but somehow you feel—it’s true I had the safe installed because I thought that would be safer to put any of my possessions in. In other words, it’s a cash operation. In other words, $2,200 in one week is a good return anyway.
Mr.Herndon. I’ll proceed, Mr. Ruby, if you are ready?
Mr.Ruby. All right.
Mr.Herndon. “Did any foreign influence cause you to shoot Oswald?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. “Did you shoot Oswald because of any influence of the underworld?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Specter. Now, by the word “foreign” in those questions, Mr. Ruby, we intend to convey to you—by Russia, by Cuba, or by any other foreign government, so that you may understand the full import of that question.
Mr.Ruby. No—but the whole thing was based on—when was the first time you thought of it—in other words, that Sunday morning, so in other words—well, we’ll get to that.
Mr.Herndon. “No” is the answer?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. “Did you shoot Oswald because of a labor union influence?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. I will now rephrase that, if I may. “Did you shoot Oswald because of labor union influence?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. “Did any long-distance telephone calls which you made before the assassination of the President have anything to do with the assassination?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. “Did any of your long-distance telephone calls concern the shooting of Oswald?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. “Did you shoot Oswald in order to save Mrs. Kennedy the ordeal of a trial?”
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. “Did you know Officer Tippit?”
Mr.Ruby. This is off the record for a minute, please?
Mr.Specter. Mr. Ruby, I think it would be unwise for us to go off the record on this question.
Mr.Ruby. Well, all right. There were three Officer Tippits in the police department. I only knew one.
Mr.Specter. Was that Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr.Ruby. He’s the one who was slain?
Mr.Specter. Yes—Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr.Ruby. No; I don’t think he was the one.
Mr.Specter. Did you know Officer Tippit who was slain?
Mr.Ruby. No; I don’t know him. You see, I know so many officers and there are three Tippits, but I know one Tippit, and which one that is—if I would see him personally and see his physical features and knowing him—of course, I didn’t have time to—I was incarcerated too soon to find out. Actually, the Tippit I knew, who worked at special service in the police department—you know which one I’m talking about, Bill?
Mr.Alexander. Yes; but that’s not the one.
Mr.Ruby. I don’t know this Tippit.
Mr.Alexander. This boy had always been a radio patrolman.
Mr.Ruby. Well, I don’t know that I had ever seen this fellow before—I had never seen him before. I may have seen him before but I didn’t know him.
Mr.Herndon. Mr. Ruby, if I ask a question, “Did you know the Officer Tippit slain?” Can you reasonably answer that truthfully “Yes” or “No”?
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. I mean—you can answer it without any problem mentally?
Mr.Ruby. Yes; that’s what I mean.
Mr.Specter. To state it differently, you are able to answer whether or not you knew Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr.Ruby. Well, I can’t answer “Yes” or “No” and say whether or not.
Mr.Specter. Well, I want to be sure that your last answer is responsive so that we are clear.
Mr.Ruby. Well, I gave the answer “No.”
Mr.Alexander. Let’s put it this way—“Did you know the Tippit that was killed?”
Mr.Ruby. Repeat that question?
Mr.Herndon. “Did you know the Tippit that was killed?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. “Did you tell the truth about relaying the message to Ray Brantley to get McWillie a few guns?”
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. “Did you come out of the assembly room on Friday night to get the telephone number of KLIF?”
Mr.Ruby. Not come out of the assembly room—I went to the assembly room.
Mr.Specter. Did you go to the assembly room?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Specter. On Friday night—in order to get the telephone number of KLIF?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. All right, we want to make that clear. We want to make that correction.
Mr.Ruby. Did you know that was part of my story, did you know that?
Mr.Herndon. The question will be worded, Mr. Ruby, “Did you go to the assembly room on Friday night to get the telephone number of KLIF?”
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. That’s clear and concise for you?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Officer Tippit at your apartment?”
Mr.Ruby. No.
Mr.Herndon. Here again the Officer Tippit is the one we’re talking about that was killed.
Mr.Ruby. Right.
Mr.Herndon. All right, Mr. Ruby, those are the questions and we will proceed on those.
Mr.Specter. Fine. Let’s proceed with this series.
Mr.Alexander. What was that last question?
Mr.Herndon. “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Officer Tippit at your apartment?”
Mr.Specter. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have left the room.
Mr.Herndon. Do you feel all right now, Mr. Ruby?
Mr.Ruby. Yes.
Mr.Herndon. Are you tired?
Mr.Ruby. No.
(Reporter’s note: 8:10 p.m.)
Mr.Herndon. All right, we can continue. If we may do so, we can save a little time, I’ll go ahead and ask you about seven or eight questions.
Mr.Ruby. All right.
Mr.Herndon. And I’ll just stop so that I can let the pressure off your arm.
Mr.Ruby. Don’t worry about me. I’m in good shape. The point is—I want to get as much in as we can. I don’t want you to miss anything, because there’s a lot of pertinent stuff.
Mr.Herndon. All right, Mr. Ruby, if you will sit back a little bit higher, and if you will uncross your legs. Take a deep breath.
Mr.Ruby. All right.
Mr.Herndon. And relax and exhale.
For the record, this will be series 9. If you will look straight ahead and answer these questions truthfully “Yes” or “No.” We will now begin.
(Reporter’s note: 8:12 p.m.)
Mr.Herndon. “Did you ever meet Oswald at your post office box?”
Mr.Ruby. “No.”
Mr.Herndon. “Did you use your post office mailbox to do any business with Mexico or Cuba?”
Mr.Ruby. “No.”
Mr.Herndon. “Did you do business with Castro-Cuba?”
Mr.Ruby. “No.”
Mr.Herndon. “Was your trip to Cuba solely for pleasure?”
Mr.Ruby. “Yes.”
Mr.Herndon. “Have you now told us the truth concerning why you carried $2,200 in cash on you?”
Mr.Ruby. “Yes.”
Mr.Herndon. “Did any foreign influence cause you to shoot Oswald?”
Mr.Ruby. “No.”
Mr.Herndon. “Did you shoot Oswald because of any influence of the underworld?”
Mr.Ruby. “No.”
Mr.Herndon. I’m going to stop here a moment, sir, and release the pressure on your arm and you just relax for a moment. Then I shall begin again in a moment.