Mr.Herndon. Yes, I have.
Mr.Specter. May the record show that I have affixed Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 9 to series No. 8.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 9 was marked for identification.)
Mr.Specter. I hand it to you with the request that you give us the findings there starting with the relevant questions.
Mr.Herndon. Series No. 8 contained five relevant questions.
No. 2: “Have you ever knowingly attended any meetings of the Communist Party or any other group that advocates violent overthrow of the Government?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
I notice in the pneumograph tracing some deviation. However, by interpretation of the chart and the length of that particular question, it again appears obvious that there was some hesitation on his part in answering the question due to its length.
However, there was no other noticeable significant physiological deviation in his response to that question.
Question No. 4: “Is any of your immediate family or any close friend a member of the Communist Party?” Mr. Ruby replied “No” and there is no significant change in his normal physiological pattern.
Question No. 6: “Is any of your immediate family or any close friend a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?” This again is a relatively long question. However, it did not appear to disturb him, and there is no noticable physiological deviation in his response to this question.
Question No. 8: “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Here again there is no noticable significant deviation in his physiological pattern.
Question No. 9: “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?” Here again this is a relatively long question and there was a little hesitation on his part in answering it, causing a change in thepneumograph tracing. However, there is no significant deviation with regard to his overall physiological pattern when he responded to this question. In general, series 8 shows no significant deviation from his normal physiological pattern. The total chart minutes was 2 minutes 50 seconds.
Mr.Specter. You have now then given us all of the relevant findings on series No. 8, correct?
Mr.Herndon. Correct, sir.
Mr.Specter. I now hand you the chart designated series No. 9 marked Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 10, and ask you if there was any unique system employed in that series.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 10 was marked for identification.)
Mr.Herndon. Yes, there was at this point in the interrogation. Realizing the Commission had a large number of questions they wanted to ask, it was decided at this point, in view of the fact that we had asked the main critical questions, to proceed with what I call direct interrogation, that is that each and every one of the questions asked is a relevant question, and that there are no irrelevant questions or control questions asked.
Mr.Specter. Would you proceed then to give us the results of those questions.
Mr.Herndon. Did you want me to itemize each and every one of these questions or read them out? They are all relevant questions and a matter of record.
Mr.Specter. Yes, please do.
Mr.Herndon. Series 9 contains 7 questions, all being relevant.
Question No. 1: “Did you ever meet Oswald at your post office box?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Question No. 2: “Did you use your post office mail box to do any business with Mexico or Cuba?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Question No. 3: “Did you do business with Castro Cuba?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Question No. 4: “Was your trip to Cuba solely for pleasure?”
Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 5: “Have you now told us the truth concerning why you carried $2,200 in cash on you?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 6: “Did any foreign influence cause you to shoot Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Question No. 7: “Did you shoot Oswald because of any influence of the underworld?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
In interpreting his chart with regard to this particular series of questions, there is no noticeable significant deviation in his physiological pattern except at question No. 6. According to my notation on the chart, Ruby moved his head at this point, and there was a deviation caused by this movement in his blood pressure tracing and also in his pneumograph tracing. His heart rate maintained a consistent rate of approximately 66 to 72 heart beats per minute throughout this series. No significant changes.
Mr.Specter. What was the total time on that series?
Mr.Herndon. The total chart minutes on series 9 was 2 minutes 15 seconds.
Mr.Specter. Have you now given us all the relevant factors from that series reading?
Mr.Herndon. Yes; I have.
Mr.Specter. Let the record show that you are going to proceed with series 9A which is a continuation of the sheet marked Herndon Exhibit No. 10.
Mr.Herndon. This was done in order to save time inasmuch as the interrogation was becoming rather lengthy at this point, and Mr. Specter indicated he was anxious to proceed and to complete the rest of the questions that we had agreed upon with all those parties that were interested in this interrogation.
Series No. 9A again is a series of relevant questions.
Question No. 8: “Did you shoot Oswald because of labor union influence?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Question No. 9: “Did any long distance telephone calls which you made before the assassination of the President have anything to do with the assassination?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Question No. 10: “Did any of your long distance telephone calls concern the shooting of Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Mr.Specter. What number question was that again?
Mr.Herndon. Question No. 10.
Question No. 11: “Did you shoot Oswald in order to save Mrs. Kennedy the ordeal of a trial?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 12: “Did you know the Tippit that was killed?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Question No. 13: “Did you tell the truth about relaying the message to Ray Brantley to get McWillie a few guns?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 14: “Did you go to the assembly room on Friday night to get the telephone number of KLIF?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 15: “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Tippit at your club?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Mr.Specter. On the designations series 9 and 9A, Mr. Herndon, did you loosen up the cuff on his arm during the two series?
Mr.Herndon. Yes; I deliberately loosened or actually I completely took off all pressure off his arm to allow him to have complete circulation in his arm and to give him a rest period before proceeding with series 9A. I believe the transcript will show that I asked him if he was feeling all right and if he was ready to proceed before going into series 9A. A review of series 9A with regard to Ruby’s polygrams fails to reveal any significant physiological reaction with regard to his responses to these relevant questions.
At this point, Mr. Specter, I might add that we are getting into an area now where it is possible that Ruby is getting somewhat cuff weary and getting somewhat tired and becoming somewhat immune to the polygraph technique. I believe we both realized this.
However, we wanted to ask these questions as a matter of record. The chart shows there is no stress or strain. However, it is entirely possible that he is becoming desensitized at this point.
Mr.Specter. Have you now given us all the relevant findings on series 9a?
Mr.Herndon. Yes; the total chart minutes for this particular series was 2 minutes 30 seconds.
Mr.Specter. I now hand you series No. 10 which is marked Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 11, and ask you to start again with the relevant questions and give us the responses thereto and any significant findings.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 11 was marked for identification.)
Mr.Herndon. Series No. 10 again was mutually agreed upon by several of the people present during the examination. However, formally authorized by Mr. Specter of the President’s Commission. They are question No. 2 which is relevant: “Were you at the Parkland Hospital any time on Friday?” Mr. Ruby replied, “No.”
Question No. 3, which is considered relevant. “Did you say anything when you shot Oswald other than what you testified about?”
Mr. Ruby replied, “No.”
Question No. 4, which was originally recommended by Dr. Beavers and as agreed upon by Mr. Specter, was presented in this manner.
Question No. 4: “Have members of your family been physically harmed because of what you did?” Mr. Ruby—could we go off the record here? I am a little confused on my notes at this point?
Mr.Specter. Yes; off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Specter. May the record show that while off the record, Mr. Herndon has referred to his notes and also to the transcript of testimony taken by the court reporter at the time the polygraph examination was administered, to be sure of the questions and answers here, and that as Mr. Herndon points out, his notes correspond with the transcript.
Will you then proceed Mr. Herndon to state those questions, answers and responses, if any?
Mr.Herndon. Yes; No. 4 was: “Have members of your family been physically harmed because of what you did?” Mr. Ruby did reply “No,” and then said: “May I interrupt?” He was instructed by me to just sit perfectly still and we will discuss the questions later. There was a deviation in his physiological tracings with regard to this question. However, these must be interpreted to the fact that he actually spoke a sentence in response to the question.
Question No. 5 was: “Do you think members of your family are now in danger because of what you did?” Mr. Ruby failed to make any reply or response to this particular question. It is noted that there was no significant change in his physiological tracings in any of the components following my asking this question.
Question No. 6 was: “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?” Here again Mr. Ruby failed to make any verbal reply to the question. Looking at the polygrams produced, it is noted that there is no significant physiological response with regard to this question. The examiner made a notation on his chart that it appeared that Mr. Ruby was visibly pondering the answer to these questions. However, decided not to answer them as instructed either yes or no period.
Question No. 7 is a relevant question: “Did Blackie Harrison speak to you just before you shot Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No” and there is a slight increase in his relative blood pressure. However, this is not considered significant inasmuch as it is at the end of the series, and it is not unusual for slight increase in blood pressure to be portrayed as the series prolongs into the later questions. It is not considered significant.
The total chart minutes on this particular series was 2 minutes 25 seconds.
In discussion of the two questions in which Mr. Ruby failed to reply, I made notations on the chart that he felt the questions were difficult to answer yes or no, and that he didn’t know how to answer them.
Mr.Specter. By those questions do you mean theones——
Mr.Herndon. I am referring to question 5 and 6 in which he did not specifically reply verbally.
Mr.Specter. That is “Do you think members of your family are now in danger because of what you did?”
Mr.Herndon. That is correct.
Mr.Specter. And “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?”
Mr.Herndon. That is correct.
Mr.Specter. Did Mr. Ruby answer those in a preliminary session?
Mr.Herndon. During the preliminary session he did answer those questions.
Mr.Specter. What answer to each question did he give?
Mr.Herndon. To the question “Do you think members of your family are now in danger because of what you did?” he replied “Yes.”
In regard to the question “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Mr.Specter. Have you now given all the significant findings on series No. 10?
Mr.Herndon. Yes; I have.
Mr.Specter. I will now move to series No. 11 which we will mark for this record as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 12.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 12 was marked for identification.)
Mr.Specter. Will you start on series No. 11, giving the relevant questions, answers and any physiological deviation?
Mr.Herndon. These questions on Series 11 were primarily asked after a conversation between Mr. Ruby and Mr. Specter at which time Mr. Ruby indicated he wanted some additional questions asked of him.
It was finally agreed upon that we would ask the three following questions.
No. 1 just to establish identity “Are you Jack Ruby?” in which he replied “Yes.”
Question No. 2: “Do you consider yourself to be a 100-percent American patriot?” Mr. Ruby responded “Yes.”
And question No. 3 “Is all of the testimony given by you today the complete truth?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
This particular series began at 8:57 p.m., and a review of the physiologicalresponses to these three particular questions indicate that they are not significant. It is believed by the examiner at this point, although Mr. Ruby said he was not tired in his general conversation with the examiner, that he was probably somewhat fatigued, and he was no longer displaying the usual physiological responses expected during the earlier phases of the examination.
The total chart minutes of series 11 is 1 minute 10 seconds. I do not consider anything significant to these particular responses other than the fact that we obliged Mr. Ruby in asking them.
Mr.Specter. Was this polygraph examination excessive with respect to length in your opinion, Mr. Herndon?
Mr.Herndon. Well, it would greatly depend on Mr. Ruby’s physical and mental condition of course. A doctor was in attendance during the examination, and I repeatedly asked Mr. Ruby during the examination how he felt and whether he wanted to proceed. I asked him on several occasions if he would like to take a break or have a drink of water. I cannot specifically state that it did or did not appear to hinder his health or cause him any undue fatigue.
However, I did hear the doctor indicate that there was no undue physical stress or strain on Mr. Ruby during the examination.
Mr.Specter. Up until the points where you have indicated there were some signs of tiredness, did Mr. Ruby appear to be responding in a satisfactory manner?
Mr.Herndon. I would say during the first several series of questions, and based on the presumption again that Mr. Ruby was rationally sound and competent during this phase of the examination, that he responded very normally, and the polygraph examination proceeded without any technical difficulties.
Mr.Specter. Was Mr. Ruby given periodic breaks throughout the course of the examination in addition to that lengthy one between series 4 and series 5?
Mr.Herndon. Yes; he was given a number of breaks and there was no time when he was asked a long series of questions inasmuch as the total chart, minutes on my charts indicate none of them went beyond 3 minutes, which is certainly considered well within standard series total chart minutes.
Mr.Specter. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the President’s Commission?
Mr.Herndon. Yes. I would like to make a few additional comments with regard to this polygraph examination, in view of the fact that it was somewhat unique and unusual. I think these factors should be somewhat considered in the overall evaluation of the polygraph examination.
First of all, Ruby has obviously been extensively interviewed by law enforcement officers and by the Commission and other people, and there has been a considerable length of time lapse since the time that the instant offense occurred of him shooting Oswald. These factors of length of time and considerable previous interrogation would tend to detract or negate any specific or definite conclusion that could be rendered with regard to the polygraph examination.
The fact that there were other personnel in the room would tend to negate a valid polygraph technique. However, here again I did mention that this did not appear to bother Mr. Ruby. But it should be considered and made a matter of record.
One other point I would like to mention, and that is the large number of relevant questions asked Mr. Ruby during this particular examination. This is not general standard procedure. However, I realize that the President’s Commission wanted to cover many facets, and that it was mutually agreed upon that we would ask the questions that the Commission had originally drawn up for this particular interrogation. In normal polygraph procedure it is usual to keep the relevant questions down to perhaps several specific critical relevant questions and work strictly on those, and in this particular examination we had a large number of relevant questions to ask.
I think these are all factors that should be considered in the overall evaluation of Mr. Ruby’s polygraph examination.
Mr.Specter. Thank you very much, Mr. Herndon.