Mr.Griffin. But do you still, in light of that do you still, have the recollection that you did hear it before you left Dallas?
Mr.Crafard. I am not sure.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you this, Larry: If you had heard this before you left Dallas, was your feeling nevertheless about Ruby’s insanity or state of mind so strong at the point when you learned that Ruby shot Oswald that you would have regarded such a statement as being of minimal importance or was your initial reaction to Ruby’s having shot Oswald a sort of quizzical one in which you really hadn’t made up your mind about the man?
Mr.Crafard. My original reaction when I first heard about it was the fact I couldn’t really believe that he had done it. I just couldn’t believe, I couldn’t make myself believe, that Jack had done it.
Mr.Griffin. Why was that? Was there something aboutJack——
Mr.Crafard. From what I knew of him he didn’t strike me as the type of person that would do so. I later made up my mind that, I come to the opinion, if he had done it, if he had done it, he must have been insane when he had done it, before I saw anything on television about it.
Mr.Griffin. I take it then that your initial reaction that Jack couldn’t have done this also reflected what you had seen of him on Friday and Saturday, that he wasn’t in such—didn’t appear to you to be in such—a state of mind at that time as being one who wanted to go out and kill.
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. And who wasn’t so upset about the killing of the President that he would be motivated by grief or something like that to do such a thing.
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. So you didn’t see him crying or weeping or emotionally, terribly emotionally, upset about the President?
Mr.Crafard. No; I didn’t actually see him crying. His eyes were very red as if he had been crying the last time I saw him on Friday.
Mr.Griffin. Or is that Saturday morning?
Mr.Crafard. Friday. But then again it struck me so hard that when I finally realized that it really had happened, it struck me so hard, that I almost cried myself. I believe there was a lot of people throughout the country, men and women alike, that cried when they heard about it.
Mr.Griffin. But still other than that reaction which you saw on Jack, there seemed to be nothing about Jack that made him appear any more grief stricken than any of the rest of you?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Was Jack the kind of a person who was given to concealing his emotions?
Mr.Crafard. Not so far as I know; no.
Mr.Griffin. How about concealing his hostility toward other people, did you ever have any indication that he concealed his hostility toward other people?
Mr.Crafard. No. In fact, I would say it would be the other way.
Mr.Griffin. Did he have any people that he regarded as enemies in Dallas?
Mr.Crafard. One person that he absolutely didn’t have any liking for was this one MC from one of the other clubs that come up there once in a while.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack display his feelings toward that guy?
Mr.Crafard. On several occasions, on two or three occasions, he told the guy he didn’t care to have him around the club, and he just as soon he didn’t come to the club, and on one occasion he told the man to leave the club and not to come back again.
Mr.Griffin. But after the man was out of his sight was Jack the kind of person that he continued to talk about him and complain to the employees or other people that he was with about somebody who was—about whom he was annoyed or upset with?
Mr.Crafard. I believe he went on for a few minutes about it.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack ever talk to you about his feelings toward his sister Eva?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I can remember; no.
Mr.Griffin. So you weren’t aware of any hard feelings between Eva and Jack?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. How about his feelings toward Abe Weinstein, the man who ran the Colony Club, did Jack discuss those feelings?
Mr.Crafard. No. From what I can remember any time Jack talked to Mr. Weinstein they got along fairly good.
Mr.Griffin. So am I correct in understanding the way you describe Jack when he had somebody that he didn’t like or had some hostility toward, that he would only display this in the presence of that person in solving some problem with the individual face to face?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; I believe so.
Mr.Hubert. Let me get back to the afternoon of the 22d again. What time did Andrew Armstrong leave, do you remember?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember the exact time; no.
Mr.Hubert. Well, about?
Mr.Crafard. Maybe 3:30, 4 o’clock, maybe a little later.
Mr.Hubert. Did he leave before Jack left?
Mr.Crafard. I believe it was after Jack left.
Mr.Hubert. And you never saw him again really until you saw him in the courthouse in Dallas?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. Later that night you were with Jack; weren’t you?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. As a matter of fact, everybody was reading, talking about Oswald.
Mr.Crafard. I am not sure; sir.
Mr.Hubert. Isn’t it a fact that Ruby had a paper, was reading a newspaper?
Mr.Crafard. He more than likely did, but I don’t remember it, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Well, you are aware that Oswald had shot the President or that it was believed that he had?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you were talking with Ruby about the whole thing, weren’t you?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; I imagine.
Mr.Hubert. Well, now, if at that time you knew from Armstrong that Oswald had been in the club, don’t you think you would have mentioned to Jack, “Say, you know somebody says Oswald was in the club?”
Mr.Crafard. Yes; I believe I would have mentioned the fact that I had been told that Oswald had been in the club.
Mr.Hubert. Does that help your memory as to when you got this remark?
Mr.Crafard. No; it doesn’t. The fact it even makes me more positive that it was after I left Dallas before I heard about it, because if I had said something like that to Jack I believe I would have remembered it.
Mr.Hubert. Well, I’ll tell you what I suggest you do, since the matter has only been really brought to your attention in the last hour or so, you know, I suggest that you give it some more thought and try to reconcile the different possibilities that exist as to when this information came to you in light of the questions we have asked you and the possibilities that have been expressed. Would you do that?
Mr.Crafard. I have been doing so right along.
Mr.Hubert. Let’s go to something else, and we can come back to that.
Mr.Griffin. I think it might be well to let it rest for a while. I am going to hand you, Larry, a Xerox copy of pages out of the notebook, and I have marked this “Washington, D.C., deposition C. L. Crafard Exhibit 5203, April 9, 1964,” and I am going to sign my name to it. Now, I want you to take this Exhibit 5203 and look at those pages and leaf through it and tell me if you have ever seen that before.
Mr.Crafard. There are nine pages in this one. I believe this is a notebook that Jack carried in his pocket.
(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5203 for identification.)
Mr.Griffin. What makes you believe that?
Mr.Crafard. I recall seeing a notebook with these tear-out tabs on it that he carried. I am not sure whether this is the one or not.
Mr.Griffin. Now, this Xerox copy which I have handed you is marked on the cover page “This is a Robinson Reminder.”
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And then there are what you call tear sheets.
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. What does the first one say?
Mr.Crafard. “Jot it down....”
Mr.Griffin. The second tear sheet, tear-out sheet?
Mr.Crafard. “Do it....”
Mr.Griffin. The third?
Mr.Crafard. “Tear it out....”
Mr.Griffin. And the fourth?
Mr.Crafard. “Live notes only.”
Mr.Griffin. Those are all the tear-out tabs on what appear to be on the front cover?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recognize the handwriting on that?
Mr.Crafard. It is printing, and it is pretty hard to recognize it. I believe this was Jack’s notebook. It is his handwriting.
Mr.Griffin. You believe it is his handwriting?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; I believe so.
Mr.Griffin. That is not the notebook, is it, that you transferred entries into from your small Penway spiral notebook?
Mr.Crafard. No; it is not.
Mr.Griffin. And you believe Jack carried this notebook in his pocket?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; I do.
Mr.Griffin. Let us go through these entries and see if you recognize any of them.
Mr.Crafard. There are a few in there I know the names of.
Mr.Griffin. How about Sandy?
Mr.Crafard. That has no meaning to me.
Mr.Griffin. The second entry is A. F. McKnight.
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Sue Pepper?
Mr.Crafard. I believe she had been a stripper.
Mr.Griffin. Was she employed as a stripper while you were there?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Have you heard some talk about her?
Mr.Crafard. The name sounds like one of the girls I mentioned as a stripper.
Mr.Griffin. Caroline Walker?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Strike that. Jack Yanover?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Caroline Walker?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Harold Tannebaum?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Margaret Caldwell?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Is this Kirk Dial or Kirk Diaz?
Mr.Crafard. I would say Dial.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever hear of him?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. James Herbert?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Jules Herbert?
Mr.Crafard. No; not that I can remember.
Mr.Griffin. Can you read what is written under Jules Herbert?
Mr.Crafard. It looks to me like “Sherry care of Lincoln-Houston.” The name “Sherry,” I believe she was a stripper.
Mr.Griffin. How about Gigi?
Mr.Crafard. She was a stripper.
Mr.Griffin. But not employed there while you were there?
Mr.Crafard. But not employed there while I was there. I have heard mention of the name.
Mr.Griffin. How about Wally Rack?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t remember the name.
Mr.Griffin. How about the Doctor’s Club, do you know what that was?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t, sir.
Mr.Griffin. What does that appear to be, Linda Kubox?
Mr.Crafard. I would say it looks like K-u-b-o-x to me.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever hear of that person?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Betty Robbins?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I can remember.
Mr.Griffin. How about Iwana Birdwell?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember that.
Mr.Griffin. How about Ferris?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. How about Skip Hutcheson?
Mr.Crafard. I believe there was some, one young fellow that Jack had staying there before I went there they referred to as Skip. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. I see. Skip Hutcheson you believe is the fellow who sort of performed the job you did before you came?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. How long before you came was Hutcheson there?
Mr.Crafard. I believe it had been 2 or 3 months, I am not sure.
Mr.Griffin. It had been 2 or 3 months that had passed between thetime——
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. How about Lynd Chenalt?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. How about W. O. Chenalt?
Mr.Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr.Griffin. Is this Brenda?
Mr.Crafard. It appears to be, yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know a girl named Brenda there?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t remember of any.
Mr.Griffin. And is that Augie?
Mr.Crafard. It looks like it.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know a fellow or a girl named Augie?
Mr.Crafard. No; the name means nothing to me.
Mr.Griffin. How about John, is that Rogers?
Mr.Crafard. I would say so. It don’t mean anything to me.
Mr.Griffin. Shirley Bruce?
Mr.Crafard. The name Shirley means nothing to me, but the last name would have been Little Lynn’s correct name.
Mr.Griffin. Well, her correct name was Bruce?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. I thought her last name was Carlin?
Mr.Crafard. Her husband’s name.
Mr.Griffin. Bruce Carlin? Bill Willis?
Mr.Crafard. The name sounds familiar, but I can’t put any meaning to it.
Mr.Griffin. Did he play in the band?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; he was one of the band players.
Mr.Griffin. At the Carousel?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Gino Skaggs?
Mr.Crafard. Means nothing to me.
Mr.Griffin. Dottie Walters?
Mr.Crafard. That means nothing to me.
Mr.Griffin. Barbara Brown?
Mr.Crafard. That means nothing to me.
Mr.Griffin. Tom Palmer?
Mr.Crafard. He had been employed at the club. We received some letters at the club for him. That is all I know.
Mr.Griffin. What had been his employment?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Was he connected with AGVA?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. How about Sandra Moran?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. This is Kathy Kay.
Mr.Crafard. She was one of the strippers while I was there.
Mr.Griffin. And Andy?
Mr.Crafard. That would be Andrew Armstrong, I believe.
Mr.Griffin. How about Andrea Dalk?
Mr.Crafard. The name means nothing.
Mr.Griffin. How about this Kathy?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember the name at all.
Mr.Griffin. How about Lorri Womack?
Mr.Crafard. The name doesn’t mean anything.
Mr.Griffin. How about Margaret?
Mr.Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr.Griffin. Here is Judy Oberlin?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t recall the name.
Mr.Griffin. George, Sherman, Tex.?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t recall the name.
Mr.Griffin. Betty Kelley?
Mr.Crafard. That doesn’t mean anything.
Mr.Griffin. Mike Eberhardt?
Mr.Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything.
Mr.Griffin. Russ Knight?
Mr.Crafard. Russ Knight—that doesn’t mean anything.
Mr.Griffin. Charles Senator?
Mr.Crafard. That doesn’t mean anything.
Mr.Griffin. The House of Loan?
Mr.Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr.Griffin. How about Joe, Whitehall 2-5424?
Mr.Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr.Griffin. How about Jeannie?
Mr.Crafard. Jeanine.
Mr.Griffin. Jeanine.
Mr.Crafard. She worked when I first went to work for Jack, she worked as a cocktail waitress and then she also was an amateur stripper. She went to work for Jack as a stripper while I was there.
Mr.Griffin. What name did she strip under?
Mr.Crafard. I believe it was under the first name of Jeanine. She used a French last name. She was of French descent.
Mr.Griffin. Ralph Paul?
Mr.Crafard. Ralph Paul.
Mr.Griffin. How about American Airlines, and Tuesday, October 9, No. 985?
Mr.Crafard. That would mean nothing to me. George Senator is the next one.
Mr.Griffin. Of course, we have talked about George. Johnny Hayden?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t remember.
Mr.Griffin. Joy Herrod?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Joe Slayton?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Wally Weston?
Mr.Crafard. He was the comedian, I believe. Jack employed him for a short while.
Mr.Griffin. Campbell-Corrigan, building repair. Did somebody do some building repairs for him?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember that. Corrigan, doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr.Griffin. Chuck Isaacs?
Mr.Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr.Griffin. I can’t read this.
Mr.Crafard. Davis Kitter—something.
Mr.Griffin. Kitter something or other.
Mr.Crafard. It looks like.
Mr.Griffin. But you don’t recognize that?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Earl Wilson?
Mr.Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr.Griffin. Tony Turner?
Mr.Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me either.
Mr.Griffin. Tom Busch?
Mr.Crafard. No; it doesn’t mean anything to me either.
Mr.Griffin. Joe Cook?
Mr.Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr.Griffin. Barbara Hickman?
Mr.Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr.Griffin. Tammi True?
Mr.Crafard. Of course, she was one of the strippers who worked for Jack.
Mr.Griffin. Here is Kay again, but you wouldn’t know what Kay that would be?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. How about Nicki?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Dolores Meridith?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Wiliford Jackson?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Phil Olian?
Mr.Crafard. It doesn’t mean a thing to me.
Mr.Griffin. Wendy Knight?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Wanda?
Mr.Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr.Griffin. Janice Anderson?
Mr.Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr.Griffin. Ann Petta?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. L. H. McIntyre?
Mr.Crafard. Nothing.
Mr.Griffin. Jim Brown?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Carlos Camorgo, Mexico City?
Mr.Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything. The only thing I believe he had a stripper, pictures of a stripper, from Mexico or South America, that he had some papers from her indicating she had been there sometime in the past.
Mr.Griffin. You believe he employed a stripper from Mexico?
Mr.Crafard. She was either from Mexico or South America.
Mr.Griffin. How long ago had he employed this stripper?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know how long ago. I saw some pictures with her name on it, Spanish name.
Mr.Griffin. Billie?
Mr.Crafard. That doesn’t mean anything.
Mr.Griffin. Toni Rebel?
Mr.Crafard. I believe there was something said about a Toni Rebel who was a stripper or a girl who went by the name of Toni Rebel on the stage.
Mr.Griffin. Bill Towney?
Mr.Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything.
Mr.Griffin. How about Affiliated Polygraph? That is a lie detector. Did you ever hear anything from Jack on that?
Mr.Crafard. The only thing I can think of there he had a sign there on the bar that if anything come up of questionable or anything was stolen in the club or anything all of the employees would be required to take a polygraph test. I don’t know whether that was Affiliated or what.
Mr.Griffin. Did he hang this out where the patrons could see it?
Mr.Crafard. It was hung on the front of the cash register.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever hear of anybody being asked to take a polygraph test?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I know of.
Mr.Griffin. Shirley Nole?
Mr.Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr.Griffin. Margo Larve?
Mr.Crafard. It doesn’t mean anything.
Mr.Griffin. Kitty Keel?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Mary Martin?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Gail or Carol?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Ethel A. Piersol?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Gail Thompson?
Mr.Crafard. Nothing.
Mr.Griffin. Margie?
Mr.Crafard. That would have evidently been Little Marge, the one waitress.
Mr.Griffin. Peggy Steele?
Mr.Crafard. She had been a stripper, she was a stripper who had worked there at the Carousel Club.
Mr.Griffin. John M. Crawford?
Mr.Crafard. It means nothing to me.
Mr.Griffin. Huntsville State Penitentiary, Huntsville. Did you ever hear him talk about anybody?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Linda?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Avrum?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Sherry?
Mr.Crafard. She had been a stripper or was a stripper that had worked for Jack.
Mr.Griffin. Henry Segel?
Mr.Crafard. He would—Segel as it is used there wouldn’t mean anything to me. But the address he has got it, Chicago, Ill.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know of a Segel thatJack——
Mr.Crafard. Spelled differently than that, Segal Liquor Store is where he bought champagne and other wines.
Mr.Griffin. Roy Pike?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. You never knew Mickey Ryan by the name of Roy Pike?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Lisa Starling?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Stewart’s Photo?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Gail Hall, Monroe, La.
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Luke of the Times Herald?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. H. G. Tiger?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. E. Fletcher?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Darrell Williams?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Vivian?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Statler Barbershop.
Mr.Crafard. Just it was a barbershop in the Statler Hilton.
Mr.Griffin. Is that where Jack got his hair cut?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Dovie?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. What we have done is gone through all of the pages 1 through9 of Exhibit 5203, and we have read off every name that is in there. Now, I am going to hand you what has been marked for identification as Exhibit 5204, and I have written on this, “Washington, D.C., deposition C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5204, April 9, 1964,” and I will sign this in pencil. Will you look at that? It purports to be a notebook, and on the cover is simply the word “Addresses.” It consists of 20 pages and, as I say, this is a Xerox copy of the cover and those pages. Would you look at that and tell me whether you have ever seen that?
Mr.Crafard. I believe this to be a copy of a notebook that Jack had, kept, in his drawer in his desk.
(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5204 for identification.)
Mr.Griffin. Is that the notebook that you transferred items from your Penway Spiral into?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. So that the notebook which is represented by Exhibit 5203 you believe Jack kept in his pocket?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And this notebook, which is represented by Exhibit 5204, you believe he kept in his desk?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, or he might have kept in his pocket. He kept two or three different books in his pocket at one time, but I believe that one was in his desk.
Mr.Griffin. And he also kept on his desk a much larger Penway notebook?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. But he didn’t have the larger Penway notebookuntil——
Mr.Crafard. Until after I went to work for him.
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Crafard. There was another one. The Penway notebook was about 6 inches long, and about 4½ inches wide.
Mr.Griffin. Now, let us look at these names in here.
Mr.Crafard. I don’t recognize any.
Mr.Griffin. You don’t recognize a single name? Did you know Cecil Hamlin?
Mr.Crafard. No; not that I know of.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know what the Century Distributors, Inc., are?
Mr.Crafard. Century Distributors, Inc.?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; what are they?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever know Jack to be interested in any prizefighters?
Mr.Crafard. No; not that I knew of.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever hear of a Willie Love?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember that name.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever hear Jack talk of Lewis McWillie?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember.
Mr.Griffin. L. J. McWillie?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever meet a fellow named Lawrence Meyers?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember him.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever meet any of Jack’s friends from Chicago?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember when you were at the State fair ever meeting any other people with Jack?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember when the first time was that you met Joyce McDonald?
Mr.Crafard. It was at the fairgrounds. She came out with Jack.
Mr.Griffin. Did you meet her out there; did you meet any men out there with her?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t—it seems like there was a couple of men with them, but I was never introduced to them.
Mr.Griffin. I will state for the record that this notebook which we haveconsists of 20 pages and those 20 pages include the cover which is marked “Addresses,” and that is page No. 1, and the remainder of the pages are numbered consecutively through 20. I might also indicate that on each page of this exhibit, with the exception of page 1 and page 20, two pages are photographed open, so that would make a total of almost 40 pages of actual written addresses. I hand you, Larry, what has been marked as “Exhibit 5205, Washington, D.C., C. L. Crafard, April 9, 1964,” and I have put my signature on there. This is a photograph of a group of people, and there is an arrow pointing toward one of the people. First of all, can you tell us if you recognize the place in which that photograph was taken?
Mr.Crafard. It appears to be the Carousel Club.
(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5205 for identification.)
Mr.Griffin. Is there anything about it that looks like the Carousel?
Mr.Crafard. You can just see the portion of the runway across here.
Mr.Griffin. This is in the lower left-hand corner?
Mr.Crafard. Lower left-hand corner of the picture, and the Carousel was the only club in Dallas to have runways, to seat the customers on runways. These gentlemen are sitting right on the runway.
Mr.Griffin. Do you see anybody in that picture that you recognize?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t. I see one of the waitresses back in the background. I can’t make out which one it is on the upper right-hand portion, standing holding a tray, but I can’t make out who it is though.
Mr.Griffin. There is an arrow directed toward one of the individuals in that picture. Do you ever recall seeing that individual in the club before?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t. I don’t recall seeing him at all.
Mr.Griffin. Is that picture of yourself?
Mr.Crafard. No; definitely not.
Mr.Griffin. Why do you say definitely not?
Mr.Crafard. One thing, the clothing. He is wearing a checkered shirt.
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Crafard. Any time I was in the club I wore a suit.
Mr.Griffin. You always wore a suit?
Mr.Crafard. Yes. I sometimes took my dress jacket off and put on a gold livery jacket on.
Mr.Griffin. Were you ever dressed in a sweater of any sort there?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you wear a tie while you were in the club?
Mr.Crafard. Yes. This gentleman is wearing what would appear to be a sport shirt, and I would say he is an older gentleman than I am.
Mr.Griffin. I want to hand you what I have marked for purposes of identification as “Washington, D.C., C. L. Crafard. April 9, 1964, Exhibit 5206,” and I have signed my name to it. Do you recognize the place where that photograph was taken?
Mr.Crafard. Mostly on the stage of the Carousel Club looking down the center runway.
(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5206 for identification.)
Mr.Griffin. Do you see anybody in that picture that you know?
Mr.Crafard. Excuse me; that is looking down the side runway on the left side.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recognize anybody in that picture?
Mr.Crafard. The young lady on the stage with her back to us, I believe, is the stripper known as Tammi True.
Mr.Griffin. Blond hair?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. What is—how about the man who appears to be dressed in a tuxedo and standing on the stage; do you recognize him?
Mr.Crafard. He looks like the comedian known, that I can only remember the name as, Johnny. He worked with a couple of puppets.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recognize the man in the checked shirt?
Mr.Crafard. Only from the fact that it was his picture in the—his photo in the previous picture that was designated with an arrow.
Mr.Griffin. Is that an accurate, true and accurate, picture of what the inside of the Carousel looked like at the time that you worked there?
Mr.Crafard. From that angle; yes. If you like, I can explain what they was doing when this picture was taken.
Mr.Griffin. Would you tell us what that depicts?
Mr.Crafard. It depicts the, what they call, raffling, you might say; they give tickets out at the door, and then they spin a roulette wheel, and the man with the numbers on the ticket that correspond with the ticket on the roulette wheel wins the prizes. That is what they were doing at that time; giving away prizes.
Mr.Griffin. Do they give away prizes every night?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; weekends mostly.
Mr.Griffin. How about during the week?
Mr.Crafard. Not too often. Sometimes they did. It depends on the size of the crowd.
Mr.Griffin. Where did Jack get his prizes?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Did he give away twist boards?
Mr.Crafard. He gave away twist boards, Rusty Warren records, two bottles of champagne, Wilkinson sword-edged blades, and stuffed animals.
Mr.Griffin. Did he give away all of those items every night they had a raffle or different nights?
Mr.Crafard. He would give whoever won their choice. They would have, give away, three prizes each night, and everyone would have their choices out of the prizes.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to hand you what I have marked as “C. L. Crafard, April 1964, 5207,” and I have signed my name to it. That is a photograph. Can you tell me where that picture was taken?
Mr.Crafard. It was taken in Mr. Ruby’s office.
Mr.Griffin. Is the arrangement of chair and desk and what appears to be a couch in the foreground the arrangement that existed at the time that you worked there?
Mr.Crafard. Yes. This couch here is part of a sectional that was turned crosswise of the office, the other portion being against the wall on the left-hand side of the picture, which is where you cannot see it.
Mr.Griffin. Are the people in this photograph looking in the direction of the TV camera, I mean of the TV set?
Mr.Crafard. I would say the woman as I am looking at the left of the picture, Joy Dale, is looking more in the direction than the rest of them, the TV set in the corner over this way.
Mr.Griffin. There is a TV set as you look from Jack Ruby’s position in the photograph. It would be off at the far wall in the left-hand corner?
Mr.Crafard. To the left of him; yes, it would be to his left.
Mr.Griffin. Is there a door shown behind Jack Ruby there?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; that is the door connecting his office to what was my room.
Mr.Griffin. So, in order to get into your room, you had to walk through Jack’s office?
Mr.Crafard. No. I had a door off in the hall to my room, but this was a connecting door from his office to my room.
Mr.Griffin. Where is the door that enters Jack’s office?
Mr.Crafard. It would be almost immediately behind the girl on the right-hand side, who is Little Lynn.
Mr.Griffin. Is that door sort of opened up through the middle of the wall or at one end of the wall?
Mr.Crafard. More or less to the end of the wall.
Mr.Griffin. Let’s mark on there, then, Little Lynn on the side that she is on, and Jack Ruby in the middle; I am marking this on the back. And Joy Dale. Now, the background of this picture, there appear to be tacked up on the door a number of papers. Was that customary?
Mr.Crafard. He had a lot of different papers tacked, fastened to the door there, hanging on it. He had a couple of pegs in the door he put them on.
Mr.Griffin. What kind of papers did he keep up there?
Mr.Crafard. Mostly old bills and stuff like that that he just stuck up on kind of a wire peg that he put them on.
Mr.Griffin. Let me show you what I have marked as Washington, D.C., C. L. Crafard, April 9, 1964, Exhibit 5208, and I have signed it. Was that photograph taken at the Carousel Club?
Mr.Crafard. Yes. Do you want me to describe it?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; would you?
Mr.Crafard. It shows Jack Ruby standing on the stage holding the mike talking to the audience, and they are clapping him; applauding him, I should say.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember when that photograph was taken?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember the date, but this photograph would have been taken at the same time we had a photographer from a magazine taking pictures. It would have been taken by him.
Mr.Griffin. How often did Jack M.C.; appear on stage?
Mr.Crafard. One or two nights. I believe one evening, one or two evenings we was without an M.C. and Jack done the M.C.-ing. It was a couple of evenings.
Mr.Griffin. When there was ordinarily an M.C. there, do you ever recall Jack going up on stage?
Mr.Crafard. No. It wasn’t his custom.
Mr.Griffin. Looking at that picture, do you recognize anybody else in the photograph?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Do you want to look at what I have marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5209, and tell me if you recognize anybody in there?
First of all, let me rephrase the question. Do you recognize where that was taken?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t. It wasn’t taken in the Carousel Club.
Mr.Griffin. And do you recognize anybody in the picture?
Mr.Crafard. No. I would say this picture was taken in a place where the theme was more or less western theme than anything else. I remember I commented to the other gentleman when he showed me a picture, we were looking at the costume she had on, wasn’t anything I remembered.
Mr.Griffin. I want to hand you what I have marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5210. Do you recognize where that photograph was taken?
Mr.Crafard. This photograph was taken in the Carousel Club.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recognize who any people in those photographs are?
Mr.Crafard. A stripper. I don’t remember her name right now.
Mr.Griffin. On the left-hand side, is that the same girl?
Mr.Crafard. The same girl in another one of the photographs. It looks like Tammi True.
Mr.Griffin. There are dogs in that—dachshund dogs in that photograph?
Mr.Crafard. These dogs belong to Jack Ruby. We placed them on the stage as more or less the photographer was here, as more or less a photography stunt more than anything.
Mr.Griffin. Were they regularly used in acts?
Mr.Crafard. No; only on this one occasion they were used more or less like, say, for a photographic stunt.
Mr.Griffin. Had you ever been up on the stage while the lights were on, while an act was in progress?
Mr.Crafard. Not while an act was in progress. Usually, during the roulette wheel, I would put the prizes out and I’d take them off when it was over.
Mr.Griffin. Would the stage be lighted in the same way for the drawing of prizes as it would be when an M.C. was on stage?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Would only the stage be lit or would the patrons, the customer area, also be?
Mr.Crafard. Just the stage.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever have occasion to look out into the audience from the stage when the roulette wheel, when the drawing, was in progress?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Could you see faces in the audience?
Mr.Crafard. It was pretty hard to make out any faces unless they were sitting right next, and then you wouldn’t recognize them.
Mr.Griffin. Unless they were sitting right next to the runway of the stage?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And therewere——
Mr.Crafard. Excuse me a minute, please.
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Crafard. You can just see a gentleman standing on the right-hand corner of some of these photographs. This gentleman was the M.C. at that time.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall who he was?
Mr.Crafard. I believe it was Johnny. Yes; there is the box, one of his boxes. It was Johnny, but I am not sure what his last name was. There is a woman in one of these pictures; I believe I can just see myself, but it is not clear enough to make out. I believe it is me standing there.
Mr.Griffin. This picture that you are looking at, this large photograph, is actually a series of small photographs?
Mr.Crafard. It is actually a series of small photographs. It would be the first and second photograph in the middle series of photographs where you can just vaguely see me.
Mr.Griffin. Now, I want to show you what I have marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5211. Do you recognize any of the people in that photograph, that set of photographs?
Mr.Crafard. There is Johnny on the stage, the first one in the first series. I can see Johnny on the stage again.
The next one shows Johnny.
The next one shows Johnny and, I believe it is Tammi True.
Mr.Griffin. Who is the heavy man in the short-sleeved shirt that is shown?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember his name. He was to the club on several different occasions. He always sat in the same place because he was such a heavy man nobody could get around him, such a big one.
In the middle series of photographs shows Tammi True in each of them.
And on the outside series of photographs is Little Lynn in Jack’s office holding some stuffed animals.
The bottom picture on the right-hand series shows Johnny with one of his puppets.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you this about the fat man in the short sleeves. Was he a friend of Jack’s?
Mr.Crafard. They knew each other. They seemed to be friendly, always talked, Jack would always speak to him when he came in.
Mr.Griffin. Did you associate any name with this man?
Mr.Crafard. I can’t remember his name, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Was his name in any of the names that we went through in the notebooks today?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember. I wouldn’t remember his name if I saw it.
Mr.Griffin. Was there anybody else who would know him? Would Andy Armstrong know him?
Mr.Crafard. Andy Armstrong would know him; yes. I believe that Andy is the one that first told me his name and told me to always seat him in the same place.
There was only one chair in the club that he could sit on and we had to go get it all the time when he come in and put it in the place for him.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to show you what I have marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5212, which is also a series of photographs.
Do you recognize any of the people in those pictures?
Mr.Crafard. The stripper is Little Lynn.
Mr.Griffin. In all of the pictures?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. How about the patrons? Do you recognize any of the patrons?
Mr.Crafard. Only myself.
Mr.Griffin. Where are you?
Mr.Crafard. This doesn’t look like me.
Mr.Griffin. Is that you?
Mr.Crafard. No; it is not me at all.
Mr.Griffin. Is that you right there? You have indicated to me that your photograph appears in a number of these pictures.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And let me indicate that you are in the photograph in the upper right-hand corner, and you are the man in a black suit who is seated second from the left along the runway.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And in the picture immediately below that you occupy the same position?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. The picture immediately below that which is the third from the top, on the right-hand side you occupy the same position?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And the stripper is Little Lynn?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Then moving into the center set of pictures you appear in the same position third from the bottom?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And the same position at the bottom?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, is this suit and dress that you show here, is that the way you were normally dressed at the Carousel Club?
Mr.Crafard. Yes. These pictures were taken as a photographic stunt, also.
Mr.Griffin. During the day, Larry, if you had occasion to go out of the Carousel Club, were you also dressed in a suit?
Mr.Crafard. During the day, up until about 5 o’clock, I was normally dressed in a pair of white jeans, a long-sleeved shirt or a pair of corduroys as I was usually working around the club and I didn’t care to wear a suit.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to hand you what has been marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5213.
Now, this picture was taken inside the Carousel Club.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Will you look at these pictures and tell me looking at the picture in the upper left-hand corner, who that is?
Mr.Crafard. Johnny, the M.C. on stage with his three puppets.
Mr.Griffin. And in the photograph right below that there are two girls. Who is the blond?
Mr.Crafard. Kathy Kay and I believe Tammi True in the dressing room. The next photograph is the same.
The next photograph is Tammi True on stage. Going to the middle of the first photograph is Tammi True. The middle series is all Tammi True on stage.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recognize any of the patrons in here?
Mr.Crafard. No, I don’t; except on the top picture on the right-hand corner shows the heavy set man we have mentioned before in the same position as before.
On the right-hand column it shows Kathy Kay on the top photo.
The next three photos are all pictures of Johnny with his puppets.
Mr.Griffin. Would that Johnny, would his name be Johnny Turner?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Was he the only M.C., the only man who was employed at the time?
Mr.Crafard. He was the only M.C. employed at that time; yes.
Mr.Griffin. And the only other employees he had at that particular time were strippers or entertainers?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; strippers and the waitresses.
Mr.Griffin. So let me understand this. That while you were there, Billy DeMar was employed there?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Wally Weston?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Johnny Turner?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And anyone else?
Mr.Crafard. I believe that was all. I can’t remember who the M.C. was when I first went to work for Jack.