Q. Do you remember a person of the name of Campbell, coming to live at your house during last harvest? A. Yes, Sir, Michael Campbell.
Q. How long is it since he left your house? A. On the Monday before the fast day.
Q. Do you remember a woman coming to your house to enquire after him? A. Yes, Sir.
Q. By what name did she call herself? A. She called herself Madgy Campbell, and also Duffie, which she said was the name of her former husband.
Q. She came from Glasgow? A. Yes, Sir.
Q. Did she state she came in search of her son? A. Yes.
GROUND PLANOFBURKE’S HOUSEas Produced in Court.Published by Thomas Ireland Jun.^r Edinburgh.T. Clerk Sc.
GROUND PLANOFBURKE’S HOUSE
as Produced in Court.
Published by Thomas Ireland Jun.^r Edinburgh.T. Clerk Sc.
Q. What time did she leave your house? A. I came out of the Infirmary on Thursday, and she left me on Friday, the 31st October.
Q. Did she tell you where she was going? A. She said she was going to search for her son.
Q. Do you know a person of the name of Charles M‘Lauchlan?
A. Yes, Sir; he slept with the woman’s son.
Q. Have you ever seen that woman since? A. Not till I saw her at the Police Office.
Q. What hour did she leave your house? A. I think between 7 and 8 o’clock in the morning.
Q. Do you remember when you saw the woman’s body at the Police Office? A. Yes, sir; it was on Sunday, two days after.
Q. Could you recognize the body? A. Yes, Sir.
Q. What dress did she leave your house in? A. In an old dark printed gown, much patched, short sleeves, open before, sewed with white thread in the back; black bombazet petticoat, and red striped short-gown.
Q. Would you know these things? A. Yes, Sir.
[These articles were shown to witness, and she identified the old printed gown, and short dress.]
By the Court.—Q. Do you know what her age might be?
A. Between forty and fifty.
By Counsel.—Q. What size was she? A. She was a little broad set woman.
By the Court.—Q. When she stopt in your house, was she in good health? A. Yes, my Lord.
Q. Did you ever see her drunk? A. No, my Lord.
Q. In the month of October last, did you reside in the house of Mrs Stewart in the Pleasance? A. Yes, Sir; along with one Michael Campbell.
Q. What time did he leave that house? A. About the end of October.
Q. Do you remember a woman coming to the house in October? A. Yes, Sir.
Q. When she came did Michael Campbell live at the house? A. Yes, Sir.
Q. What name did the woman go by? A. Mrs Campbell’s name was Marjory M‘Gonegal; Duffie was her second husband’s name.
Q. Had you ever seen her before? A. Yes, Sir; at home, in the County Donegal in Ireland.
Q. Did she remain some days at Stewart’s? A. Yes, Sir.
Q. What time did she leave? A. She went away on Friday the 31st October, between the hours of nine and ten in the morning.
Q. Did you go with her? A. Yes, Sir, as far as my own shop door at the foot of St Mary’s Wynd, where she shook hands with me. I asked her where she was going, and she told me she was leaving town.
Q. Did she appear in good health and sober? A. Yes, Sir, she appeared to be of sober habits.
Q. Did she come in search of her son? A. Yes, Sir.
Q. Do you know if she had any money? A. No.
Q. Did she complain of having none? A. I never heard her.
Q. Did she pay any thing for her lodgings at Stewart’s? A. Her son paid for them.
Q. Did she breakfast at Stewart’s that morning? A. No, Sir.
Q. Did you ever see her again in life? A. No, Sir.
Q. When did you see the body? A. I saw it at the Police office, on Sunday the 2d November.
Q. You knew it to be that of the woman Campbell?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. Did she ever call herself Docherty? A. No, Sir.
Q. You are a shop-boy at Mr. Rymer’s, at Portsburgh?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. Do you know the prisoner Burke by sight? A. Yes, Sir.
Q. Do you know a man of the name of Hare? A. Yes.
Q. What do you sell? A. Groceries.
Q. Do you recollect a body found in the West Port? A. I recollect a woman came to the door, and asked charity, on Friday 31st October. Q. Was Burke in the shop at the time? A. He was.
Q. Tell us what passed between Burke and the woman who asked charity? A. He asked her name, and she said it was Docherty.
Q. What did he say to that? A. He said she was a relation of his mother’s.
Q. Did Burke say what his mother’s name was? A. No.
Q. Did Burke and the woman seem acquainted? A. Don’t recollect Q. What happened after that? A. Burke took her away with him, and said, he would give her her breakfast. This was on the Friday morning.
Q. When did you see Burke after? A. He came back on Saturday, and bought a box.
Q. What sort of a box was it? A. A tea-box.
He was shewn a tea-chest, and asked, if that was it? A. Could not say. It was like it.
Q. Have your tea boxes any particular mark? A. No.
Q. Did Burke pay for the box? A. No, it is not paid for yet.
Q. Whom did he send for it? A. Mrs Hare came for it about half an hour after Burke left our shop, and got it away.
Q. You live in Wester Portsburgh? A. Yes.
Q. What does your house consist of? A. One room.
Q. You go down a stair to it? A. Yes, Sir.
Q. And going down the stair you come to a passage? A. Yes.
Q. Is there another door in the same side of the passage, a little farther in? A. Yes.
Q. Does that door lead into a room or a passage first? A. First into a passage.
Q. And at the end of that passage there is a room? A. Yes, Sir.
Q. Who lived in that room in October last? A. It was Burke; he occupied it in the last week of October.
Q. Look at the female prisoner. Did she live with Burke in the last week of October? A. Yes, Sir.
On the other side of the passage there is another house in which lived Mrs Law.
Q. Did you ever see a person of the name of Hare coming to Burke? A. Yes, Sir.
Q. Were there any lodgers lived with the Burkes in October? A. Yes, a man of the name of Gray.
Q. Did you, on the 31st of October, see Burke? A. Yes.
Q. What time of the day? A. I made no remarks.
Q. Did you, see any one with him? A. About mid-day I saw him with a woman; I was sitting by the fire, and they both passed my door.
Q. Was it the prisoner? A. No.
Q. Were they going in? A. Yes.
Q. Was she a stranger? A. Yes.
Q. Was there any one in the house with you at the time?
A. Yes, Mrs Law.
Q. Did you in the course of the day go into Burke’s? A. Yes.
Q. Did you go in alone? A. Yes.
Q. Did you find any one there? A. Yes, the said woman was sitting by the fire.
Q. Was she doing any thing? A. Supping porridge and milk.
Q. How was she dressed? A. She had no gown on, she said her things were washing. I saw nothing but her shift, and something tied on her head.
Q. Did you see any stranger there? A. No.
Q. Was Burke’s wife there? A. Yes.
Q. Was Burke? A. I dont know. You have got a stranger, I said. Yes, said M‘Dougal, we have got a friend of my husband’s here, a Highland woman.
Q. Was the strange woman sober? A. I dont know.
Q. Did you hear her speak at that time? A. No.—I then went back in the dark.
Q. What happened after you went into your own house?
A. Burke’s wife came and asked me to take care of her door until she returned, as she was going out; my husband was sitting by the fire, and after she went away, he said he thought he saw some person going into Burke’s house. We took a light and went to see, but saw nobody, save the stranger.
Q. What did you do after this? A. I said, I thought some one had come in. She rose and followed after me, and appeared the worse of drink at the time. She said she was going to St Mary’s Wynd to see a boy, to hear about her son, and she wanted the name of the land of houses, that she might return, as she said she had no money to pay for her bed. I told her she need not go for she would not find her way back again. She said Burke, whom she called Docherty, had promised her supper and a bed that night. I told her if she went out the Policemen would take her as she was bad in drink.
Q. Did she go out? A. No, she did not, she came into our house and spoke a good while with my husband about Ireland and the army, in which he had been.
Q. Did you ask how Burke and she had become acquainted?
A. No, but she said she intended to stop for a fortnight. I told her, her landlord’s name was Burke and not Docherty, but she insisted it was Docherty, for that was the name he gave himself to her.
Q. What name did she call herself to you? A. She called herself Docherty in her own name, and Campbell as her husband’s.
Q. Did any other persons come to your house shortly after?
A. Yes, Hare and his wife; Hare’s wife had a bottle with her, and he insisted they should have a dram. The prisoner M‘Dougal came in also and had a share.
Q. Did you drink any? A. Yes, and my husband treated them.
Q. Did the stranger get any drink? A. Yes.
Q. Were they merry in your house? A. Yes, Hare was dancingon the floor, so were Mrs Campbell and Mrs Burke; Campbell was bare-footed, and got a scratch on the foot with the nails in Hare’s shoes, of which she complained, but she was otherwise very well.
Q. Did they leave your house together? A. No, Mrs Campbell said she would not go till Docherty, meaning Burke, came in. I insisted on her going, but she bade me not be cruel to a stranger. Shortly after, I told her there was Docherty now, and she rose and followed him.
Q. At what hour was this? A. I think it was between 10 and 11 at night. She went towards Burke’s house.
Q. Did you sleep that night? A. No, what disturbed me, was Burke and Hare quarrelling. They appeared to be fighting.
Q. At what hour did you get up in the morning? A. I got up between three and four, but went to bed again, and got up altogether about eight o’clock.
Q. Whom did you see first? A. I heard Hare’s wife in the passage calling to Mrs Law, who was then in our house, but she did not answer.
Q. Did any other person come to your door? A. Yes, a girl afterwards came inquiring for John, who witness understood was Burke; it was between eight and nine.
Q. Did you direct her to Burke? A. Yes.
Q. Did you see Mrs M‘Dougal? A. Yes, shortly after she came and told me William (Burke) was wanting me. I went to Burke’s and found Mrs Law, M‘Dougal, and a lad named Broggan. Burke had a bottle of spirits and gave me a glass, he then threw the spirits up towards the roof of the house, and upon the bed at his back. I asked him why he wasted it, and he laughed and said, he wanted it finished to get another bottle. I then asked Mrs M‘Dougal what was become of the old woman. She said she kicked her out of the house, as she saw Burke and her toofriendly.
Q. Did Burke say anything at this time? A. No.
Q. Did you ask him what the noise was about? A. Yes, he said it was a fit of drink, but they were all well then.
Q. Did you do anything more? A. No, Sir.
Q. Did you see any straw lying near the bed? A. Yes, there was a bundle of straw near the bed, which had lain there almost all the summer.
Q. When you got up at the first time in the morning, between three and four, was all quiet in Burke’s house? A. Yes, while I made my husband’s breakfast at that hour, I heard no noise.
Q. Did any other thing particular happen in Burke’s that morning? A. Yes, his wife sung a song.
Q. At what hour did you return to your own house? A. It would be the forenoon.
Q. Did you go again to Burke’s on Saturday night? A. Yes, at eight o’clock, Gray’s wife told me of something in Burke’s house and I went with her to see.
Q. What did you see? A. I saw nothing, I was so frightened that I came out.
Q. Did you see the prisoner, M‘Dougal? A. Before this M‘Dougal came to me, and said the woman Gray had stolen some things out of her house, and asked mo to watch her door, as it did not lock. This was about six o’clock.
Q. What happened after? A. When I was making my husband’s supper, Hare came to my door. He was going to Burke’s, but I told him there was nobody there; and he came into my house, but soon went back into the passage. I afterwards went to Burke’s door, and found it fastened.
Q. After you went to Burke’s door, did you see any one? A. Yes, Hare came out of Burke’s after that.
Q. Did you see M‘Dougal? A. Yes, and Burke a good bit on in the night.
Q. Did any thing else happen? A. Yes, some one said to Burke and M‘Dougal, that they were very much disturbed the nightthey murderedthe woman. M‘Dougal laughed, and Burke said, he would defy all Scotland, as he never did any wrong. The Police came just after that and apprehended Burke.
Q. Did Burke, before he was apprehended, say any thing of the person, who accused him of the murder?
A. Yes, he said he would go and seek the man, and he met him in the passage along with the policeman, and they took him into his own house.
Q. What was the cause of your fear, when you went into Burke’s house.
A. From having heard of the murder from Mrs Gray.
Q. You lived in the same passage with the prisoners in October last? A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember being at Connaway’s house on the 31st October, about two in the afternoon? A. Yes.
Q. Do you recollect seeing the prisoner Burke in the passage? A. Yes.
Q. Was he alone? A. A little woman was following him, they went into Burke’s house.
Q. Did you see Hare that evening? A. Yes.
Q. Did he go into Burke’s house? A. Yes.
Q. Did you go in there? A. Yes.
Q. Whom did you see? A. I saw Hare and his wife and Burke, and the little woman.
Q. At that time were they merry? A. Yes.
Q. You were not long there? A. About twenty minutes.
Q. Did you get any spirits? A. Yes.
Q. At what hour did you go to bed? A. About half-past nine; sometime after I heard a noise of dancing and merriment.
Q. Did you hear any singing? A. No, Sir.
Q. Fighting and scuffling? A. There was a great noise.
Q. Did you distinguish any particular voice? A. No.
Q. Did the noise last long? A. Yes. The next morning Mrs Burke came into my house to borrow a pair of bellows, and asked me if I heard Burke and Hare fighting in the night time.
Q. Any more about the fighting? A. I asked her then what she had done with the little woman? She said, she kicked her out of the door, because she had been using too much freedom with William, (meaning Burke.)
Q. Did she go after that? A. Yes, that was about eight. She afterwards returned about nine to borrow a dram glass, and asked me to come into her house.
Q. Did you go? A. Yes, and saw Hare there and Burke and M‘Dougal; and a man of the name of Broggan.
Q. Did Gray and his wife come in before you left? A. Yes, and Mrs Connaway.
Q. Did you remark any thing particular? A. Yes, Burke took a bottle of spirits, and sprinkled it about the bed and room; he said, because none of them would drink it.
Q. Was there a good deal of straw lying at the foot of the bed?
A. Yes. This took place on the Saturday morning, and Burke was apprehended that night.
Q. Did you see Mrs Connaway at Burke’s house? A. Yes.
Q. Did you go to the Police Office on Sunday? A. Yes, and was shewn the body of the little woman I saw at Burke’s on Friday night.
Q. Was the straw that was near the bed there before? A. Yes.
Q. Was it in use? A. Yes, it had been used for some time as a bed for Gray and his wife.
Q. Do you live in the same land with Burke? A. Yes, I live in the flat above the shop, and he lives in the flat below the shop.
Q. Did you hear any noise on the night of the 31st October when going home? A. Yes, I heard some going along the passage between eleven and twelve that night.
Q. Tell us what you heard? A. I heard two men quarrelling; but what particularly attracted my attention was, the cry of murder from a woman. I went down a part of the stair towards Burke’s house.
Q. Do you know Connaway’s door? A. Yes.
Q. Did you go so far as that? A. Yes.
Q. Now tell us distinctly as far as you can what you heard? A. I heard two men quarrelling, and a woman crying murder, but not in such a way as would lead me to think she was in danger. She continued to do so for a few minutes; then something gave three cries as if it was strangled.
Q. Did it resemble the sound of a person or animal that was strangled? A. Yes.
Q. What did you hear after this? A. I heard no noise on the floor, only speaking loud. After these remarkable sounds, I heard the female voice who cried murder, strike her hand as if against the door and call for the police, they were murdering her. I went immediately for the police, and could not get one. I returned and went down the stair a little way.
Q. Did you hear any thing after? A. Nothing but the voices of the two men which appeared at a great distance.
Q. While you were listening, did you hear feet moving on the floor? A. Yes.
Q. How far might you be from Burke’s door when you heard those remarkable sounds? A. About three yards, or ten or fifteen feet.
Q. Was the outer door shut? A. I think it was, and that on the same door the woman struck her hands.
Q. When did you hear a body had been found? A. On Saturday evening, and that fixed my recollection of what I heard before.
Q. You said you went in search of the Police? A. Yes.
Q. How far did you go? A. Only to the mouth of the passage. When I returned I did not consider it necessary to interfere farther.
Q. Was the voice you heard of murder the same you heard when you first went down?
A. Yes, it was like the voice that said, for God’s sake gofor the police, there is murder here. I since sent a person to strike on theinner doorto see if it sounded the same as I heard before, and I think it did not.
Q. Was the last cry for the Police? A. Yes, and that there was murder there.
Q. Have you any doubts the cry of murder you heard in the passage came from Burke’s house? A. I have no doubt of it.
Q. Look at the prisoner, do you know him by sight? A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did you see him on Friday, 31st October? A. Yes, he came to my mother’s house on Friday night to ask for my brother David, and I said he was out. He then went away.
Q. Did you go on the next morning to Burke’s house? A. Yes, my brother sent me for Burke, and I went and inquired for his house at Mrs Law’s.
Q. Where do you live? A. At No. 26, West Port.
Q. What is your occupation? A. I am keeper of the Museum of Doctor Knox.
Q. Do you know the prisoner? A. Yes.
Q. At what hour did you go home on the 31st October?
A. About twelve.
Q. Did you find any person at your door? A. Yes, the prisoner; he told me he wanted me to go to his house.
Q. Did you go? A. Yes.
Q. Did you find people there? A. I found Burke and another man and two women.
Q. After you went in, what passed? A. The prisoner told me he had procured something for the Doctor, pointing to the head of the bed, where there was some straw; he said it in an under voice. I was near him at the time.
Q. Was any thing shewn to you at that time? A. Nothing.
Q. What did you understand he meant? A. I understood him to mean a dead body, a subject.
Q. What were his exact words? A. His words were—“There is something for the doctor (pointing to the straw) which will be ready to-morrow morning.”
Q. Was there sufficient straw to cover the body? A. There was.
Q. Was that woman, the prisoner at the bar there, (pointing to Mrs M‘Dougal?) A. She was.
Q. Would you know the other two persons who were present?
A. Yes.
Hare and his wife being brought in.
Q. Do you know these people? A. I know them by the name ofHare, they are the other persons that were at Burke’s house that night.
Q. Had you any further conversation with Burke, while you remained there? A. No, but I sent my sister for him in the morning, and he came alone about nine o’clock.
Q. What did you say to him when he called on you? A. I told him if he had any thing for Dr Knox, to go to himself, and agree with him personally. I afterwards saw the prisoner Burke and Hare in Doctor Knox’s Rooms in Surgeon’s Square, along with Doctor Jones, one of Doctor Knox’s assistants. This was between twelve and two.
Q. Did any thing pass there? A. Either Burke or Hare told Dr Knox, they had a dead body for him, which they would deliver there that night; and I had orders from Doctor Knox to be in the way to receive it, or any parcel that might come. I was there about seven, when Burke and Hare, and a porter named M‘Culloch, brought a tea-chest. They carried it in, and it was put in a cellar, (Mr. Jones was present,) and when it was locked up, I went to Newington to Dr Knox, and told him the parcel was delivered. Hare, Burke, and the porter had either gone before or followed. I saw them when I came out of Dr Knox’s house. He gave me Five Pounds to give the men, with orders to divide it between them, and in order to do so, I took them to a public-house, and got change, and gave each Two Pounds Ten Shillings. They left something for the porter. It was understood they were to return on Monday, by which time, if Dr Knox approved of the subject, they would get the remainder of the price, which I believe, was Eight Pounds.
Q. Did you hear the prisoner say any thing about women? A. Yes.
Q. Did you see any women loitering about? A. No.
Q. What happened after? A. The next morning, Sunday, Lieutenant Paterson and Sergeant Fisher of the Police came to me, and I went to Dr Knox’s cellar along with them, and gave them the package which was left there the night before.
Q. Was it still roped? A. Yes, as it had been received.
Q. Did you assist at the opening of it? A. Yes, and found it to contain the body of an elderly female, apparently fresh and never interred. The body was doubled up in the box, all the extremities doubled on the chest or thorax for want of room.
Q. Describe the state when it came out of the box? A. I examined all the body externally, stretched on a table. The face had a very livid colour, there was blood flowing from the mouth. The appearance indicated evident marks of strangulation, or suffocation from pressure. I found no external marks on the body that might have caused death.
By the Court.—Q. Did the eyes project? A. No.
Q. Was the tongue hanging out? A. No.
Q. Was there any marks about the throat? A. No.
Q. Was there any injury about the lips and nose? A. Yes, they were dark coloured and marked with blood.
Was at Burke’s the morning after the murder. Saw Burke spill spirits about the room, and detailed several indecent speeches of Mrs Burke, about the way she got a shot of the old woman. He was desired by Burke to remain, but did not.
Q. Do you know the prisoners Burke and M‘Dougal? A. Yes.
Q. You lodged in their house at the end of October? A. Yes.
Q. You saw a strange woman there? A. Yes.
Q. What had she on? A. A dark printed gown, and a pink bed-gown over it.
[Witness was shewn the clothes, and identified them.]
Q. You saw the little woman there once or twice on Friday?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Burke say how he met her? A. He said, he met her in a shop at nine or ten that morning.
Q. Did you remain at Burke’s house that night? A. No; Burke told me I should leave the house for that night as my husband and I were quarrelling; and if I would go, he would pay my lodgings, and he said I was to go toWilliam Hare’s. I went away with Hare’s own wife, and returned about nine o’clock for some things of my child’s. Hare and Burke were dancing, and Mrs Docherty was singing to them. In the course of the day Mrs Docherty wanted to go out, but Mrs Burke would not let her.
Q. At what time did you return to Hare’s? A. Almost immediately.
Q. Did Hare and his wife come home? A. Yes, and Mrs Burke came to supper; after that they all went out together, and the Hares did not return that night. The first thing in the morning that occurred, was Burke coming to my husband to give him a dram. Then went to Burke’s house and saw there a number of people, but not the old woman. I asked where she was, and was told, Mrs Burke had turned her out as she was drunk.
Q. When you went to the house, did you go back for any thing? A. Yes, for a pair of my child’s stockings. When looking for them, Burke told me “to keep out from there;” that is, from the straw. There was whisky then used. Burke threw it about, and said he wanted to get quit of it to get more. Burke then ordered me to put on some potatoes; and I went to reach under the bed for some, when Burke told me to come out of that, I might set the bed a-fire with my pipe.
Q. Was Broggan there? A. Yes, during the day, and Burke desired he would sit there, on the chair next the straw, until he Burke came back again.
Q. Did Broggan remain? A. No, he only stopped a few minutes.
Q. Did Burke bid you clean the house? A. No; but I said it would be better to wash the floor, and put a little sand on it.
Q. What did you do after Broggan went out? A. I went to look for Burke, but I could not find him. I went out again, and met him at the West Bow, he went to take a dram.
Q. Did you discover a dead body in that house after Broggan went out? A. Yes.
Q. Where did you find it? A. Under the straw at the foot of the bed.
Q. Why did you go back? A. Because my suspicions were raised at seeing Burke throw the spirits about, and I was determined to see what it meant. The first thing I seized hold of, was the woman’s right arm. My husband took her up by the hair of the head, the body was naked, and there was blood on the nose and mouth. My husband went away before me; he met Mrs Burke on the stair, and told her what he had seen, and asked her about the body. She told him to hold his tongue, and it might be worth Ten Pounds a week to him.
Q. Did you say any thing to Mrs Burke? A. Yes, I spoke to her about the body, and told her, that was the woman who was well, singing on the floor; and she bade me hold my tongue, and she would give me Five or Six Shillings. She repeated the words again, and said, if my husband would be quiet, it would be worthTen Pounds a week to him. I said that I would not wish to be worth money got for dead people.
Q. Did your husband give information after that to the police? A. Yes.
Q. You saw the body there? A. Yes.
Q. Was it the same? A. Yes.
Q. Did you return with Mrs. Connaway to Burke’s? A. No, I sent her in, but did not go myself.
Q. Did you sleep in Burke’s house on Thursday night?
A. Yes, on the bed of straw.
Q. Did you continue there all the forenoon of Friday?
A Yes, I never went out but for a stoup-full of water.
Q. What time did you go to Hare’s? A. About dark.
Q. Did any one ask you to come back to Burke’s that night? A. No, I thought as it was Halloween night they did not wish to have me amongst them.
Q. Who went with you to Burke’s at the time you say you went for your child’s clothes? A. My husband. It was about nine o’clock, we did not stop many minutes.
Q. Were they all making merry? A. Yes, they were dancing and singing.
Q. Do you remember was Mrs. Connaway there? A. No.
Q. You went away in a few minutes? A. Yes.
Q. You say that Hare afterwards came home, with Mrs. Hare and M‘Dougal? A. It was before I went back for the clothes and not after.
Q. Did they ask you to come and have some sport with them? A. No; next morning Burke came, and went out to give my husband a dram, and he told us to come down to breakfast, and we did.
Q. When you went down to breakfast, did you see Hare or his wife then? A. No.
Q. Are you sure? A. Quite sure, she came home before I went to breakfast. I did not get up until eight o’clock.
Q. Did M‘Dougal say any thing to your husband or yourself about the body when it was found? Did she say, My God I cannot help it? A. Yes, I recollect now, she did.
Q. Did these words follow her offer of the ten pounds a week? A. Yes.
Am I to understand she said, “My God, I cannot help it,” after you said you did not wish to make money by dead people? A. Yes. [Here she recapitulated her evidence in a very distinct manner.]
Q. Did the woman make no reply, when you said the woman was dead, whom you saw well and singing the night before? A. No.
Q. What did you say after? A. I said, if she could not help it, she ought not to remain in the house.
Q. Were these words, “My God, I cannot help it,” used after M‘Dougal had spoken to your husband of ten pounds a week, and he had refused to be silent? A. Yes, it was after the offer of money; and I said, did she mean to bring a family to disgrace, that prisoner replied, “My God, how can I help it.”
Q. You lodged at the prisoner’s house? A. Yes, for a few nights at the end of last October.
Q. Do you remember Burke having any conversation with you about sleeping out of his house on the 31st of that month?
A. Yes, Burke said we must go out that night, that he had provided a place for us, and that we might come back in the morning to breakfast.
Q. Did he give any reason for desiring you to leave his house that night? A. No, not that I recollect. He took us to Hare’s, and pitched on a bed he used to occupy himself.
Q. Did you know that Burke brought in a strange woman that morning before, and ordered breakfast for her? A. Yes. He said, he suspected she was some relation of his mother’s, as she had the same name, and was from near the same place.
Q. Did you return the night you left Burke’s? A. Yes, about nine, with my wife, where we saw a good number of people at Burke’s; we stopped a few minutes. Next morning Burke came, and my wife and I went down to breakfast.
Q. In the course of that Saturday, was you present when your wife found a dead body? A. Yes, it was covered with straw, and lying near the head of the bed.
Q. Was it the woman you saw there the night before? A. Yes. I then packed up my things that were there, and wason the point of taking them to a house opposite, when I met Mrs. Burke, I asked her, what was the meaning of that thing I saw in her room. She asked what; I said, I suppose you know, the body. She then fell upon her knees and supplicated me, offered me five or six shillings, and said, if I held my tongue, it might be worth ten pounds a week to me. I said, my conscience would not allow it.
Q. Did she say the same thing to your wife? A. Very near.
Q. Did she say she could not help it? A. She did.
Q. After this conversation, did your wife and you leave it?
A. Yes. Mrs. Burke followed us up to the street. We met Mrs. Hare; she asked us what we were quarrelling about, and desired us to go into a house and settle our dispute. We did go, and shortly after I went straight to the Police.
Q. When you saw the body, did you know it to be the woman who was there the night before? A. Yes; it was quite naked. There was blood upon the mouth.
Q. What hour was it when you left Burke’s house first, on the evening of the 31st? A. About five in the evening.
Q. What hour did Burke come for you in the morning? A. I think about seven.
Q. Was Burke in Hare’s at supper? A. No; but Mrs. Burke was. The Hares had left before Burke came.
Q. You are a porter? A. Yes.
Q. Did the prisoner Burke come to you to carry a parcel for him at the end of October last? A. Yes. Q. Where did you go first? A. To Burke’s house. We went into his room, where we got a box like a tea-box; he took something in a sheet, and put it into the box. Q. Was it like the shape of a human body? A. I think it was. Q. Had you no doubt it was a body? A. No. Q. Did you assist? A. No; but when the body was putting in there was some hair which I pushed in. Q. When the body was putting in the box was there violence used? A. Yes. Q. Was there another man there? A. Yes, of the name of Hare.
Q. What became of the sheet? A. It was left where the body was carried to. (The witness was shown a box.)
Q. Was that the box? A. The very box.
Q. Was the hair long? A. No.
Q. Did you carry the box? A. Yes.
Q. Did the prisoner follow you? A. Yes. He told me to go towards the High School Wynd.
Q. Did you go? A. Yes.
Q. Did any person join you? A. Yes, the prisoner and his wife, and Hare and his wife.
Q. Then you went to Surgeons’ Square? A. Yes, and took the box off my back. Q. What hour was it? A. It was half-past six.
Q. Where did you go after? A. To Newington.
Q. Who went with you? A. The prisoner, Hare, and their wives.
Q. Did they separate from their husbands? A. Yes.
Q. You saw a person of the name of Paterson?
A. Yes. We went into a public-house, and he shared the money between the prisoner and Hare, and gave me five shillings for my trouble. When we came out the women were gone.
Q. You are a police officer? A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember a person coming to the office? A. Yes.
Q. Where did you go with him? A. To William Burke’s.
Q. What did you go there for? A. To make inquiries, as I heard the body was removed; I met Burke and M‘Dougal on the stair, I bade them come down, I wished to speak with them. I asked Burke what had become of his lodgers? He said, there is one (pointing to Gray) and that he turned them out for their bad conduct. I then asked what became of the little woman that was there on Friday? He said she left at seven in the morning. I asked him if any person saw her go away? He said, William Hare. I asked if any one else saw her go? He then looked insolent, and said, many saw her go. I saw marks of blood on the bed, and asked how they came there. M‘Dougal said a woman had lain in there a fortnight ago. She said she knew where to find the little woman, she lived in the Pleasance. She saw her that night at the Vennel, and she apologized for her bad conduct. I asked her what time she left, and she said at seven o’clock at night. I then decidedon taking them to the office, which I did, on a pretext that it was all a matter of spite against them, and if they would come to the police office, it would be all cleared up.
Q. Did you return to Burke’s house that night? A. Yes, with the Superintendant and Dr. Black.
Q. Did you examine the house? A. Yes.
Q. You found a striped bed-gown on the bed. A. Yes.
Q Was that it?—(The bed-gown was exhibited.) A. Yes.
Q. Did you find any blood? A. Yes, amongst the straw.
Q. Did it appear to have been long there? A. No.
Q. Next morning you went to Dr. Knox’s with Paterson? A. Yes.
Q. And what did you find?
A. The body of an old woman quite naked. We sent for Gray to see if he knew the body, and he identified it. We afterwards returned in the day and removed the body to the police-office.
Q. Was the body shown to the prisoners? A. Yes.
Q. They denied all knowledge of having seen it, dead or alive? A. Yes.
Q. Did you go to Burke’s house again? A. Yes, and found an old gown and a bag.
Q. Were these the articles? (They were exhibited.) A. Yes.
Q. Was the body after examined? A. Yes, by Dr. Black, Dr. Christison, and Dr. Newbigging.
Q. Did Hare deny all knowledge of the bodies? A. Yes.
Q. And his wife? A. Yes.
WILLIAM HARE (or HAIRE) asocius criminis, was now brought forward, and his entrance into the witness’s box produced a great sensation in the Court. He was first sworn according to the form used in Scotland, and warned in the most pointed manner to speak the truth, for if he was found to deviate the least from it, the most condign punishment would await him.
Q. You are a Roman Catholic? A. Yes.
Q. Would you wish to be sworn in any other way? A. I never took an oath before, I believe it is all one way.
(He was then sworn upon a New Testament, with his right hand on the Cross.)
Q. How long have you been in this country? A. Ten years.
Q. How long have you been acquainted with the prisoners? A. About twelve months.
Q. Is your house near Burke’s? A. Yes.
Q. You remember last Halloween? A. Yes.
Q. Were you drinking in a public-house with Burke? A. Yes.
Q. What did he say? A. He asked me to go down to his house to see what ashothe had got for the Doctors. He said he got an old woman off the street, and she would make a goodshotfor the Doctors. He told me to go down to the house and see if they were drinking, for he did not like to go.
Q. What did you understand by a shot for the Doctors?
A. That he was going to murder her.
Q. Did you go down? A. Yes, I found a man and a woman and Nelly M‘Dougal, and the old woman washing her short-gown.
Q. Was the strange man’s name Gray? A. Yes.
Q. What colour was the short-gown? A. Reddish striped.
Q. Is that it? (The gown was exhibited.) A. Yes.
Q. Did you remain long there? A. Five minutes, and then went home.
Q. Was you in Connaway’s after that? A. Yes, between eight and nine o’clock.
Q. Who was at Connaway’s? A. There was William Burke and Broggan, and another chap I did not know, and my wife, John Connaway, and Nelly M‘Dougal. The little old woman was left at Connaway’s, where they had some drink.
Q. Had you some? A. Yes, we then went to Burke’s, and Burke and his wife and the old woman came in; we were all hearty.
Q. Did you then expect the old woman was to be murdered? A. No.
Q. You had a quarrel with Burke? A. Yes, he struck me on the mouth, and I struck him again, the woman came between us, he pushed me on the bed twice and I remained on the bed; the old woman got up and wished Burke to sit down, as he treated her well; she said she did not wish to see him ill used; she run out before this to the passage and cried out either murder or police.
Q. How was she brought back again? A. It was Nelly M‘Dougal that brought her back both times.
Q. When you were struggling, did you knock the old woman down? A. Yes, and she lay on her back, so drunk she could not get up, she cried to Burke to quit.
Q. Did he quit you? A. Yes.
Q. What did he do then? A. He got on the old woman with his breast on her head, and kept in her breath, she gave a kind of cry and moaned a little after the first cry.
Q. How did he apply his hands to her? A. He put one hand on her nose and the other under her chin, and stopped her breath, he continued this for ten or fifteen minutes.
Q. Did he say any thing while this was going on?
A. No, he then got up and put his hand across her mouth and kept it there three or four minutes; she appeared quite dead then.
Q. Was you looking on all this while? A. I was sitting on the chair.
Q. Did he strip the body? A. Yes, and put the clothes under the bed, he then doubled up the body, and put the straw on top of her near the head of the bed.
Q. While you were sitting on the chair and he was murdering, where was your wife and M‘Dougal? A. When they heard the first screech they leaped out of bed and run into the passage, and did not come in until the body was put away.
Q. Where were you? A. I was sitting at the head of the bed when they both lay down and covered themselves with the quilt.
Q. Did you see any blood at that time? A. No.
Q. Did any body come to the door when the woman cried in the passage? A. No.
Q. Before the women sprung up was Burke long on the woman? A. A minute or two.
Q. Did any one go to Burke to try and save the woman?
A. No one.
Q. Who went out first? A. My wife.
Q. And M‘Dougal followed after? A. Yes.
Q. Could any one have prevented Burke without your seeing them? A. No.
Q. Did the women make any inquiries when they came into the room? A. No, they both went to bed. Then Burke went out after the woman was laid aside, and stopped out ten minutes.
Q. Did any body come back with him? A. Yes, the Doctor’s man, Paterson.
Q. Did Burke say any thing to the Doctor’s man?
A. Yes, he wanted him to look at the body. Paterson said it would do very well, to put it in a box; he would not look at it. I don’t know when Paterson went away, I fell asleep.
Q. Were you tipsy? A. I knew what I was about.
Q. What time did you awake? A. Between six and seven in the morning. I was sleeping on the chair, with my head on the bed; the two women and John Broggan were in bed; he lay next his aunt, Nelly M‘Dougal. Burke was sitting at the fire. After this I went home, and found Gray and his wife at my house; they had had a bed there that night.
Q. Did Burke come to your house the next morning?
A. He did. We went to get our morning; he asked me to go to Surgeons’ Square to get a box.
Q. Did you get a box there? A. No. Burke then said he had one bespoke from Mr. Rymer’s shop-boy. We got a box, and the porter brought it in. Burke was not in then. We left the box, and stopped at the back door until Burke came. When he came he asked me what I was doing, that I did not get it into the box. He then went in, and drew the body from under the bed, and the porter helped to put it in; there was some hair hanging out, and the porter put it in; and said, it was bad to let it hang out. The porter then carried it away to Surgeons’ Square. It was roped. (That box in Court is it, or like it.) I went with the porter, and Burke went for the Doctor’s man. They came to Surgeons’ Square, and we went in with the box. We put the box in a cellar, and then we went to Newington to the Doctor. Mr. Paterson went in, and he afterwards came out and asked if we would go to a public-house, he had money for us. We saw our wives following us, but they did not come into the house. Paterson gave the porter 5s. and each of us L.2, 7s. 6d. We were to have five pounds more on Monday. I saw nothing very particular until I was taken up.
Q. You say you have been ten years in Edinburgh? A. Yes.
Q. How have you been engaged?
A. I have been a labourer, and sometimes employed in selling fish with a cart and horse.
Q. Have you been engaged in supplying bodies to the Doctors? A. Yes.
Q. Have you been concerned in supplying the Doctors with subjects on other occasions than that you have mentioned?
The Lord Advocate objected to the question.
Mr.Cockburn.—I hold that I am entitled to test thisGentleman’scredibility with the Jury, and with that view I shall endeavour to make him confess such acts as will make his evidence go for nothing. I purpose to ask him if he was concerned in any othermurderexcept this one.
Lord Advocatethought the Dean of Faculty had agreed to confine himself to this case.
Lord Meadowbankthought that such a line of conduct could not be pursued. The question was neither a fit nor proper one.
Mr.Cockburn.—In general, evidence is adduced because it is entitled or presumed to be entitled to credit. Now, it is monstrous to suppose that I should not be allowed to shake the credit of a human being in respect to his evidence. (He then quoted a case lately tried in England, where a witness in a similar circumstance was examined and acknowledged that he had been guilty of the most atrocious crimes; in consequence of which his evidence was totally discredited.)
Mr.Alisonreplied, the law of England was in no point more opposed to the law of Scotland than in regard to evidence. A witness here could not be called on to answer for his whole life and conversation. The utmost license was allowed in England in cross-examination, but it is contrary to the uniform and fundamental law of Scotland.
Dean of Faculty.—I completely agree with my Learned Friend. Our object is to discredit, not to disqualify the witness. We wish to propose a question to try the veracity of this witness. The witness was warned that he was standing on his oath, being peculiarly situated, but it may happen in most cases that he will answer it, and answer falsely. If he answers truly, it will be for his credit; if falsely, it will then be for the benefit of my client.
Lord Meadowbank.—I regret having stated the impression made upon my mind by the bare announcement of the question proposed to be put to the witness, because I should most assuredly have rather, in a matter of this vast importance, have desired to obtain every light that could have been thrown upon it before I ventured to deliver my judgment regarding it. But perhaps my having done so had only the effect of my attention being more anxiously called to every word that dropt from my brethren at the bar, and if I were satisfied that if any thing that was suggested by them had the effect of shaking the opinion which occurred to me at first, nothing that I stated before could have prevented my honestly and frankly avowing it. I have,however, been confirmed in that opinion by finding that notwithstanding all the ingenuity of my learned brethren, they have said so little on the subject, and that they have been unable to show one single precedent in favour of their argument, except that which has been obtained from the law of England. Now, I for one throw the law of England altogether out of the question. It is, I believe, in matters of this kind diametrically opposite to ours. That law holds, that a witness has no protection from having been examined by the Public Prosecutor, on a criminal trial. We hold, that he has. It is quite absurd, therefore, to dream of drawing a precedent, which is to guide your Lordships, from the law of England. But even our law goes no farther than to protect witnesses from being subject to prosecution on account of matter immediately connected with the subject of the trial in the course of which they are examined. I understand it, therefore, to be admitted that, if the question proposed were admitted by your Lordships, the witness must be told that he is not bound to answer it, because it is beyond the competency of this Court to afford protection against being afterwards questioned for the perpetration of crimes which do not form the proper subject of inquiry in the present investigation. But I have always understood that the law of Scotland has gone a great deal further—that it allows no question to be put which a witness may not competently answer, and which, if answered, must not be sent to the Jury as a matter of evidence. Now, in the first place, I admit that it is quite competent for the prisoner to put any question relative to the matters at issue by which he apprehends that the credibility of the witnesses for the Crown, may, if answered, by possibility be shaken. The oath taken by the witness, binds him to speak the truth, and the whole truth; but that obligation goes no further than it refers to the matter before the Court. It neither does, nor has it ever been held, to bind him to speak to matters relative to which he has not been called legally to give evidence. I apprehend, therefore, that even the oath which has been imposed upon the witness, is not obligatory upon him to speak to mattersnot immediatelyconnected with the subject of this trial—and, in fact, such was the opinion of the Counsel for the prisoners; for, upon their application, the witness was particularly warned that he was only required to speak the truth, and the whole truth, relative to the third charge in this indictment. I have always understood, however, that no question could be put, upon cross-examination, to a witness in this country, which would, if answered, have the effect of renderinghim in truth inadmissible. All questions having that effect must be put as preliminary, and after the questions put to all witnesses by your Lordships before the examination commences. In that respect, very likely, we differ from the law of England; but, for the reasons assigned by Mr. Hume in the passages read by Mr. Alison, I am not inclined to think that the rules of our law are inferior, or less effectual for the administration of justice. The object of our law has always been to get at the truth, and I suspect that is best to be obtained by preventing witnesses being harassed in the way that would result from such questions as the present being held to be admissible. But further still, suppose, in the second place, that the witness answers the question that has been put in the affirmative, and depones that he has been present at more murders than the one in question, what is to be the result? Is the Lord Advocate upon the re-examination to ask him at what murders he has been present, and who was concerned in those murders; or to go into an examination of all the matters connected with those cases? If he is, we may be involved in an inquiry into the circumstances connected with the other murders in this indictment, which are not now the subject of trial, and which your Lordships, by your interlocutor, have precluded from being the subject of trial. I cannot think that such can be your Lordships’ intention: yet the Court must be prepared either to go this length or not, before allowing a question to be put which must open up such a field of inquiry, for if the prisoner is entitled to put the one question, it must follow that the prosecutor is entitled to put the other, and if you do permit such an inquiry, you must be prepared to send the answers so given, and the evidence so arising, to the jury for their consideration. And what would be the consequence? By the evidence thence arising, and the suspicions thence created, the prisoners might be convicted upon matters not at issue in this indictment. Nor is it enough to say that this has been occasioned by the prisoner himself; for the law of this country interposes to protect a prisoner from his own mistakes—it lays down rules by which, in all cases, protection shall be afforded against either accident or error; and as I conceive it would be highly erroneous to send such matters to a jury, and yet that we are entitled to permit no questions to be put, the answers to which must not be sent to the jury, I think, this question cannot be admitted. But I set out with saying, that I do not think any question can be sustained by your Lordships, which, if answered in the affirmative, would disqualify a witness. Thus,suppose that the question put were, Have you committed ten acts of perjury—and the answer were in the affirmative, what is to be the result?—Your Lordship must tell the jury either that the witness’s answer is true, or that it is false. If true, must it not also be added that he cannot be believed upon his oath; and if it appears not to be true, then he is equally incredible. By admitting such questions, therefore, the necessary result is that you put it in the power of the witness to disqualify himself; and that, I have invariably understood, I can solemnly assure your Lordships, to have been a principle reprobated by the law of this country.
TheLord Justice Clerkthought that the question might be put, but that the witness should be cautioned that he was not bound to criminate himself, for if he answered the question the Court could not protect him.
Lord Mackenziethought the question might be put. The witness being warned that he is not bound to criminate himself, and told that he has no protection from the Court, but for the crime now before it. The admission of his having been guilty of a secret crime could not disqualify him. He had yet seen no sufficient authorities to shake that opinion.
TheLord Justice Clerkagreed with Lord Mackenzie, although he thought with Lord Meadowbank that it was the “most extraordinary question he ever heard;” but the case being an extraordinary one, allowance must be made.
TheLord Advocatewished to know in what situation he was placed. Was he allowed to ask him, if he confessed—“Of what murders were you guilty?”
Mr.Cockburn.—We put that question, and the Lord Advocate is entitled to put what other he chooses. I cannot state the thing more generally. We intend to object to no question the Lord Advocate may choose to ask.
Q. You mentioned when you was last here, that you assisted in taking the bodies to Surgeons’ Square?
A. I never was concerned in furnishingnone, but I saw them do it.
Lord Justice Clerk.—You are not bound to answer the question about to be put.
Mr.Cockburn.—I am going to put some questions to you, and you need not answer them if you don’t choose.
Q. How often have you carried dead bodies? A. I won’t answer it.
Q. Have you ever been concerned in any other murder?
A. I won’t answer that.
Q. Was there a murder committed in your house on the 8th October last? A. I won’t answer that.
Q. When Burke said he had got a shot for the Doctors, how did you know what he meant by a shot?
A. I heard it often before.
Q. Did you know it meant murder, then? A. Yes.
Q. How did you know it?
A. He told me he would murder her.
Q. Had you any notion that mischief would happen that night you were dancing? A. I could not say.
Q. When did you suspect there was going to be mischief?
A. When I saw him on the top of her.
Q. Did you see the body of the woman at the Police Office?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you deny there ever having seen the body before?
A. I denied it.
Q. How soon was it after her death you saw her at the Police Office? A. I saw a body there on Saturday or Sunday.
Q. You have been acquainted with Burke long? A. Yes.
Q. Have you received any money before from Dr. Knox?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever receive any from his assistants?
A. Burke did, and he gave it me.
Q. Did you ever receive any? A. No.
Q. Who received the money? A. Burke.
Q. Are you positive that it was five pounds that was to be received on Monday? A. Yes.
Q. Who was it paid the man? A. I believe Burke did.
Q. Burke paid you? A. Yes, he threw two pounds to me, and seven shillings in silver. Paterson put two pounds in one parcel, and two in another, and halved the silver and Burke shoved it over to me.
Q. Had you ever any quarrel with Burke about money? A. No.
Q. You told us that the old woman went out into the passage and cried, Police and Murder? A. Yes.
Q. You say you shoved her down over a stool? A. Yes.
Q. And she lay on her back? A. Yes.
Q. At the time that Burke was on the top of the woman, did you hear her screech? A. Yes.
Q. It could be heard a good bit off? A. Yes.
Q. You say that Broggan was in bed in the morning,—did you see him come in? A. No.
Q. Did you sit in that chair and see Burke for ten minutes killing the woman, and offer her no assistance? A. Yes.
Q. You sat by calmly and saw the murder done? A. Yes.
Q. Did you give any information the next day? A. No.
Q. But you went to dispose of the body, and received money for it? A. Yes.
Q. And the next day you denied all knowledge of the body? A. Yes.