MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.Pall Mall, Dec. 25th, 1782.My dear Brother,All the effect which I hoped for by the official despatch has been produced by the confidential communication. Townshend has had this morning a long conversation with Lord Shelburne, the result of which is a compliance with your wishes. But this will be done by an official despatch, and not by a Cabinet minute, as they cannot venture to meet a Cabinet upon it. Still, however, I think that is sufficient for you—sufficient to authorize you in present, and to justify you in future. I write this in great haste, in order if possible to prevent the measure which I recommended in my last.Thurlow will probably oppose it in that House. They talk of altering the bill,but not materially. I put the question explicitly, whether it was to contain a recognition, and was answered that it should. Townshend asked me whether you would be likely to pledge yourself that this should satisfy, as he thought that might possibly be expected. I said it could not be expected that you shouldpledgeyourself for madmen, but that you certainlyhoped. He then said that it would take a day or two to prepare and send in circulation the despatch, and hoped this would make no material difference. I said certainly not, if I was allowed to state this conversation to you. To this he agreed. Then I mentioned the dissolution. He said that you seemed to agree that this would take effect much better with the news of a peace, and that (he might tell me confidentially) this must be decided within three days, unless something very unforeseen happens.On this idea I wait here a few days longer, and then shall bring your despatches with me, and go back if you think it right.I think the event shows how much more strongly your determination operated, as I said it would, than all the reasoning possible.Believe me ever,My dear brother,Most sincerely and affectionately yours,W. W. G.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Dec. 25th, 1782.
My dear Brother,
All the effect which I hoped for by the official despatch has been produced by the confidential communication. Townshend has had this morning a long conversation with Lord Shelburne, the result of which is a compliance with your wishes. But this will be done by an official despatch, and not by a Cabinet minute, as they cannot venture to meet a Cabinet upon it. Still, however, I think that is sufficient for you—sufficient to authorize you in present, and to justify you in future. I write this in great haste, in order if possible to prevent the measure which I recommended in my last.
Thurlow will probably oppose it in that House. They talk of altering the bill,but not materially. I put the question explicitly, whether it was to contain a recognition, and was answered that it should. Townshend asked me whether you would be likely to pledge yourself that this should satisfy, as he thought that might possibly be expected. I said it could not be expected that you shouldpledgeyourself for madmen, but that you certainlyhoped. He then said that it would take a day or two to prepare and send in circulation the despatch, and hoped this would make no material difference. I said certainly not, if I was allowed to state this conversation to you. To this he agreed. Then I mentioned the dissolution. He said that you seemed to agree that this would take effect much better with the news of a peace, and that (he might tell me confidentially) this must be decided within three days, unless something very unforeseen happens.
On this idea I wait here a few days longer, and then shall bring your despatches with me, and go back if you think it right.
I think the event shows how much more strongly your determination operated, as I said it would, than all the reasoning possible.
Believe me ever,My dear brother,Most sincerely and affectionately yours,W. W. G.
The "Order" referred to in the following letter is the Order of the Knights of St. Patrick, instituted in Ireland, under the Viceroyalty of Lord Temple, on the 5th of February, 1783.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.Pall Mall, Dec. 28th, 1782.My dear Brother,As, in consequence of your letter of the 25th, I mean to stay over the 21st of January, I write immediately to explain to you what I referred to in my last about the Order. It is not of any very great importance; but as I then expected to have seen you in a few days, I thought I should be able to explain it better by word of mouth.It relates to the difficulty of reconciling the business of the Commoners who have been talked of for it, with the King's strong approbation of your only having proposed sixteen, and his very great disinclination, which Townshend has repeatedly expressed to me, to increase the number even to eighteen or twenty. I suppose you mean sixteenexclusiveof the Sovereign and Grand Master. I apprehend Conolly, Ponsonby, O'Neill, and Daly to have been talked of. The difficulty is greater, because I understand that the two first have more than once refusedpeerages. This, however, you will arrange as you think best. The King was pleased with the motto,Quis separabit?To this would apply very well the Collar which Hawkins told me had been thought of, of trefoils and roses alternate. Townshend will write, or has wrote, to you for a plan, which plan is meant to include Badges, and all other playthings belonging to it. You'll break Percy's heart if you settle it all without him. Pray oblige me, as a herald, so far as to appoint a genealogist, and to make the Knights deliver in pedigrees three descents back at least: that is the number in the Garter Statutes, which I send to you. The Thistle and Bath have both genealogists—the last must be an arduous office. I do not apprehend that the names are meant to be sent as part of the plan, nor indeed can you do that yet. Do you offer one to theNolo Privy Councillari, or do you draw the line of none but Privy Councillors?I called the other day on the Archbishop of Cashel, and was told that he was gone for Ireland; but I'll know in a day or two. Adieu.Ever yours,W. W. G.The King seems to expect to get two Red Ribands by it—Lord A. and Lord B. Query the latter.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Dec. 28th, 1782.
My dear Brother,
As, in consequence of your letter of the 25th, I mean to stay over the 21st of January, I write immediately to explain to you what I referred to in my last about the Order. It is not of any very great importance; but as I then expected to have seen you in a few days, I thought I should be able to explain it better by word of mouth.
It relates to the difficulty of reconciling the business of the Commoners who have been talked of for it, with the King's strong approbation of your only having proposed sixteen, and his very great disinclination, which Townshend has repeatedly expressed to me, to increase the number even to eighteen or twenty. I suppose you mean sixteenexclusiveof the Sovereign and Grand Master. I apprehend Conolly, Ponsonby, O'Neill, and Daly to have been talked of. The difficulty is greater, because I understand that the two first have more than once refusedpeerages. This, however, you will arrange as you think best. The King was pleased with the motto,Quis separabit?To this would apply very well the Collar which Hawkins told me had been thought of, of trefoils and roses alternate. Townshend will write, or has wrote, to you for a plan, which plan is meant to include Badges, and all other playthings belonging to it. You'll break Percy's heart if you settle it all without him. Pray oblige me, as a herald, so far as to appoint a genealogist, and to make the Knights deliver in pedigrees three descents back at least: that is the number in the Garter Statutes, which I send to you. The Thistle and Bath have both genealogists—the last must be an arduous office. I do not apprehend that the names are meant to be sent as part of the plan, nor indeed can you do that yet. Do you offer one to theNolo Privy Councillari, or do you draw the line of none but Privy Councillors?
I called the other day on the Archbishop of Cashel, and was told that he was gone for Ireland; but I'll know in a day or two. Adieu.
Ever yours,W. W. G.
The King seems to expect to get two Red Ribands by it—Lord A. and Lord B. Query the latter.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.Pall Mall, Dec. 30th, 1782.My dear Brother,I have been with Townshend this morning, and have had a long conversation with him. He showed me his despatch to you, and that brought on the conversation, which I managed so that I might at any time have produced your last letter; but upon the whole I thought it better not shown, although thewords of his despatch are certainly by no means satisfactory. He spoke very openly to me, and said that as his despatch had been written without the concurrence of Cabinet, he thought he could hazard no more. In this I could not but agree with him, especially as it gave me occasion to press upon him, for his sake as well as yours, the necessity of something being finally settled.He then went at large into the difficulties. He was convinced, he said, that it would come in the end to your proposition. But in the meantime Thurlow was against it, and meant to oppose the Bill; and Shelburne wanted to be forced to it, and said that he was sure a stand would be to be made somewhere; and why not now? I answered that it did not seem to me the most prudent step to choose a post where no man of any description would stand by you. We had much more conversation of the same sort. There were those, Townshend said, who had said that as the preliminaries were expected soon, it would come with better grace then. But, continued he, if we wait till then, I am afraid it may not come at all. To this I answered, that this was exactly my idea, but in the meantime, was it not fit you should know on what ground you stood? He said so; and (he went on) see where we should be in that case. The Lord-Lieutenant would not stay an hour. Here he stopped, as waiting my answer. I immediately said, most certainly not. And then the person who succeeds him will be to wait on you. You know better than I do the situation of things and men. Tell me to whom I am to apply. To the Duke of Portland's people?—to the old Court and Lord Shannon?—to Hood and his set? I went on a good deal more in the same strain, and ended with saying that he could not be astonished, or even at all surprised, that every day should increase your impatience. This was to prepare him for your peremptory despatch, which, if my subsequent letters have not stopped, I shall now most certainly deliver. He told me thaton Wednesday he should see most of his colleagues, and he should then hope to have some answer to give me.I threw out one idea to him, which I said proceeded entirely from myself: and therefore, if he mentioned it at all, it should be as a thing to be proposed to you, and not as one coming from you. It was that, as it would probably be thought right that the matter should be discussed in a Committee of the whole House as a foundation for bringing in the Bill, such terms might be used in the resolutions of that Committee as should obviate the difficulty which was made upon the idea of the preamble's referring to past rights. I then mentioned in general words my idea for those resolutions, but did not give them to him in writing. I have since reduced them to writing, and enclose them to you for your ideas upon them. I mean to-morrow to read them to Townshend, in order to explain my idea fully, but not to leave them with him. The first resolution is copied almost verbatim from the addresses. If you turn to them, you will see what I have omitted, and that I have inserted nothing but what I thought absolutely necessary, in order not to clog the resolution, and render it thereby less perspicuous.Pray let me have your ideas on this as soon as possible. I still think your preamble will at last be consented to: but a pressing despatch, to be used or not, as occasion requires, can do no harm.Believe me,My dearest brother,Most affectionately and sincerely yours,W. W. G.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Dec. 30th, 1782.
My dear Brother,
I have been with Townshend this morning, and have had a long conversation with him. He showed me his despatch to you, and that brought on the conversation, which I managed so that I might at any time have produced your last letter; but upon the whole I thought it better not shown, although thewords of his despatch are certainly by no means satisfactory. He spoke very openly to me, and said that as his despatch had been written without the concurrence of Cabinet, he thought he could hazard no more. In this I could not but agree with him, especially as it gave me occasion to press upon him, for his sake as well as yours, the necessity of something being finally settled.
He then went at large into the difficulties. He was convinced, he said, that it would come in the end to your proposition. But in the meantime Thurlow was against it, and meant to oppose the Bill; and Shelburne wanted to be forced to it, and said that he was sure a stand would be to be made somewhere; and why not now? I answered that it did not seem to me the most prudent step to choose a post where no man of any description would stand by you. We had much more conversation of the same sort. There were those, Townshend said, who had said that as the preliminaries were expected soon, it would come with better grace then. But, continued he, if we wait till then, I am afraid it may not come at all. To this I answered, that this was exactly my idea, but in the meantime, was it not fit you should know on what ground you stood? He said so; and (he went on) see where we should be in that case. The Lord-Lieutenant would not stay an hour. Here he stopped, as waiting my answer. I immediately said, most certainly not. And then the person who succeeds him will be to wait on you. You know better than I do the situation of things and men. Tell me to whom I am to apply. To the Duke of Portland's people?—to the old Court and Lord Shannon?—to Hood and his set? I went on a good deal more in the same strain, and ended with saying that he could not be astonished, or even at all surprised, that every day should increase your impatience. This was to prepare him for your peremptory despatch, which, if my subsequent letters have not stopped, I shall now most certainly deliver. He told me thaton Wednesday he should see most of his colleagues, and he should then hope to have some answer to give me.
I threw out one idea to him, which I said proceeded entirely from myself: and therefore, if he mentioned it at all, it should be as a thing to be proposed to you, and not as one coming from you. It was that, as it would probably be thought right that the matter should be discussed in a Committee of the whole House as a foundation for bringing in the Bill, such terms might be used in the resolutions of that Committee as should obviate the difficulty which was made upon the idea of the preamble's referring to past rights. I then mentioned in general words my idea for those resolutions, but did not give them to him in writing. I have since reduced them to writing, and enclose them to you for your ideas upon them. I mean to-morrow to read them to Townshend, in order to explain my idea fully, but not to leave them with him. The first resolution is copied almost verbatim from the addresses. If you turn to them, you will see what I have omitted, and that I have inserted nothing but what I thought absolutely necessary, in order not to clog the resolution, and render it thereby less perspicuous.
Pray let me have your ideas on this as soon as possible. I still think your preamble will at last be consented to: but a pressing despatch, to be used or not, as occasion requires, can do no harm.
Believe me,My dearest brother,Most affectionately and sincerely yours,W. W. G.
The impediments and delays Mr. Grenville had to encounter in his negotiations with Ministers, are sufficiently detailed in the preceding correspondence. They appear to have originated chiefly with Lord Shelburne, who, in the line of conduct he pursued on this occasion, betrayed either a singular indifference to the state of Ireland, or an inexcusable ignorance of it. For the latter, indeed, he had no reasonable excuse, since the suspense of the public mind, and the growing discontents of the people, were constantly pressed upon his attention by Lord Temple and Mr. Grenville. There certainly was no shadow of pretence for not thoroughly understanding the whole merits of the question at issue between the two kingdoms, and still less for not setting it at rest at once, as the Ministry did at last, and must have intended to do in some shape all throughout. Yet it was not until the beginning of January, 1783, after nearlysix weeks of incessant representations and harassing interviews with Lord Shelburne, Pitt and Townshend, that the mission of the Irish Secretary assumed a definite shape, and that something like a distinct hope was held out of its being brought, at last, to a satisfactory conclusion.
Lord Shelburne appears to have been desirous of postponing the Irish difficulty until after he should have succeeded in securing the peace, for which he was then treating with France. He thought that a measure, however just and indispensable in itself, emanating from a strong Government, would be received as a graceful concession, while the same measure, granted by a Government which had been described early in the preceding December by Lord Mornington (afterwards Marquis of Wellesley) as subsisting solely on the divisions of its enemies, might seem to be wrung from the embarrassments of the Administration. This shuffling policy, and want of magnanimity in the Minister—this coquetting with extremities, in the forlorn hope of extracting from them some advantage for a sinking Government, pervaded the councils of the Cabinet, and led finally to its downfall.
In the meanwhile, agitation was rising into open manifestations of distrust and resentment in Ireland. The Volunteers, whose nationality had been appeased by the recent Repeal of the Declaratory Law, renewed their demands for a specific measure, by which the legislative and judicial independence of the country, guaranteed by that Repeal, should be unconditionally recognized, and placed beyond doubt or cavil. Their suspicions were excited by the hesitation of the Imperial Government,and their indignation was roused by the fact that, in contravention of the settlement by Act of Parliament of the rights of Ireland, an Irish case had been heard in an English court of law, and decided by Lord Mansfield. The circumstances were irritating, and peculiarly calculated to shake the confidence of so sensitive a race in the sincerity of their rulers. Nor were there wanting persons who were ready to avail themselves, for factious purposes, of every fresh symptom of national disquietude to inflame the passions of the people. At the head of these disturbing patriots were Lord Beauchamp and Mr. Flood; fortunately, on the other side, was Mr. Grattan, whose pure patriotism, confiding in the honour and justice of the Imperial Legislature, resisted all violent demands, until a fair opportunity had been afforded to England to vindicate the integrity of a settlement, the principle of which was clear, and admitted on all hands. His language on this point, in reply to an Address from the Volunteers, was explicit: "I know of no circumstance, except one, which has really happened to alarm you: the entertaining and deciding by the Court of King's Bench, in England, an Irish cause, is, no doubt, a very great infringement. You do not imagine that I mean to rest under it; but I shall never suppose such a measure to be the act of England, unless her Parliament shall hesitate to do it away in a manner the most clear, comprehensive and satisfactory." Mr. Grattan's firmness stayed the impetuous course of the Volunteers; but it was at the cost of his immediate popularity, and, as it afterwards proved, at the imminent risk of his personal safety.
It was while these events were taking place in Ireland, that Lord Temple and Mr. Grenville were urging upon the Administration the imperative necessity of bringing forward a measure that should satisfy the apprehensions of the Irish people. With that view a Bill, known by the title of the Bill of Renunciation, was prepared by Lord Temple and forwarded to Mr. Grenville. Upon the structure, and not upon the substance, of this Bill, innumerable quibbles were raised. The difficulty with Lord Shelburne was, not the renunciation itself, for that was nothing more than a confirmation of the repeal, but the technical form in which it was to be expressed. Nobody dreamt of disturbing or evading the principle of the measure which this Bill simply declared anew and fortified by a more distinct enunciation; but Ministers could not agree upon the words—for into a discussion about words the whole negotiation finally degenerated. And thus, the fear of compromising the dignity of England by some unguarded expression, or of failing from over caution to satisfy the demands of Ireland, had the effect of protracting the passage of a measure, upon the substantive justice and urgent necessity of which all parties were unanimous.
At length Mr. Grenville was enabled to announce to his brother that these petty discussions were brought to a satisfactory close. But the issue, as will be subsequently seen, was not quite so near as he supposed. The Administration had wasted so much time in verbal criticisms, that, although they had the merit of ultimately introducing the Bill into Parliament, they were obliged to bequeath the satisfaction of earning it to their successors.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLEPall Mall, Jan. 2nd, 1783.My dear Brother,After the many changes and delays which have occurred in the course of this business, I think I may at last congratulate you, and what is infinitely more, the two kingdoms, on its being brought to such an issue as you desire.I told you in my last despatch that Townshend seemed to me much alarmed lest he should have gone too far in his letter to you, and that at the same time I had assured him that you would not think he went far enough, as the whole question turned upon the point of recognition, which was very distantly alluded to in his letter. When I saw him yesterday, his alarms appeared to be increased. This morning, however, he told me that he had been with Conway, who understood his authority to be quite sufficient for what he had done, and with Lord Shelburne, who said that it was a damned thing, and that he wished Lord Temple would have stood it, but that it could not be helped, and that he (Townshend) must therefore think over with the Crown lawyers such a preamble as should recognize in future, without any retrospect whatever. To this point Townshend said he thought your Bill went; and therefore he told me he was to send it down in that shape in which you sent it (excepting the omission of the wordsof rightin the two places where they occur) to Lord Camden for his opinion. I then mentioned what I had hinted to him before in the way of resolutions, which might, I thought, be so drawn as to preclude the idea of retrospect. He wished to see the form I had adopted; upon which I gave him, as coming from myself only, the enclosed paper, which you will see differs a little from that which I sent you before. Both these he sent to Lord Camden, with a letter, desiring that he and myself might see himto-morrow morning for his ideas on the subject. You will observe thatheis from principle warm for Irish claims; and therefore I think it not a bad quarter to begin with.I flatter myself you will approve of my reason for withholding your despatch No. 16, as the wordcourts, withoutof law, which we have scratched out, certainly includes the Peers; and nothing would have been so agreeable to Lords T. and S. as a point of form which they need not have mentioned till towards the conclusion of the business, and so might completely have gained their darling object—time.Still, however, I thought much of that letter—too important to be lost—and therefore threw it together into the enclosed paper, which I sent to Townshend the night before last, together with a copy of such parts of his despatches as authorized you to pledge the faith of Government,he having asked me for them, not for himself.While I was still in a state of suspense, your letter and despatch of the 29th reached me. I thought it best to keep the latter till this morning, when, I need hardly say, I did not deliver it, though I thought proper to read it to Townshend, in order, as I told him, that he might be perfectly acquainted with your feelings on the occasion, and might see I had not exaggerated them. You will remember that your next despatch is numbered 16. If it comes before you receive this, I will alter it. To-morrow you shall know the result of Lord Camden's conversation, upon which much I think depends; though after what has now passed, I have no idea of the possibility of their drawing back again, even if they were so inclined.Brooke's business, Jemmy tells me, passed the Treasury yesterday.You will have had an answer, such as it is, about the Duke of L. and Hussey Burgh.With regard to Perry, I have written to you already fully on the subject.I have talked once or twice about Portugal; but they want exceedingly to be quickened,là-dessus.Townshend desires to make you an apology through me, and will do it himself when he writes, for the delay. From him no apology whatever is necessary. Adieu.My dear brother,Ever yours,W. W. G.When I pressed Lord Shelburne about Hussey Burgh, he said he thought there would be no objection to promising him that he should be made as soon as any one. I stated this to Townshend this morning, who is to speak to the King about it again to-morrow.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE
Pall Mall, Jan. 2nd, 1783.
My dear Brother,
After the many changes and delays which have occurred in the course of this business, I think I may at last congratulate you, and what is infinitely more, the two kingdoms, on its being brought to such an issue as you desire.
I told you in my last despatch that Townshend seemed to me much alarmed lest he should have gone too far in his letter to you, and that at the same time I had assured him that you would not think he went far enough, as the whole question turned upon the point of recognition, which was very distantly alluded to in his letter. When I saw him yesterday, his alarms appeared to be increased. This morning, however, he told me that he had been with Conway, who understood his authority to be quite sufficient for what he had done, and with Lord Shelburne, who said that it was a damned thing, and that he wished Lord Temple would have stood it, but that it could not be helped, and that he (Townshend) must therefore think over with the Crown lawyers such a preamble as should recognize in future, without any retrospect whatever. To this point Townshend said he thought your Bill went; and therefore he told me he was to send it down in that shape in which you sent it (excepting the omission of the wordsof rightin the two places where they occur) to Lord Camden for his opinion. I then mentioned what I had hinted to him before in the way of resolutions, which might, I thought, be so drawn as to preclude the idea of retrospect. He wished to see the form I had adopted; upon which I gave him, as coming from myself only, the enclosed paper, which you will see differs a little from that which I sent you before. Both these he sent to Lord Camden, with a letter, desiring that he and myself might see himto-morrow morning for his ideas on the subject. You will observe thatheis from principle warm for Irish claims; and therefore I think it not a bad quarter to begin with.
I flatter myself you will approve of my reason for withholding your despatch No. 16, as the wordcourts, withoutof law, which we have scratched out, certainly includes the Peers; and nothing would have been so agreeable to Lords T. and S. as a point of form which they need not have mentioned till towards the conclusion of the business, and so might completely have gained their darling object—time.
Still, however, I thought much of that letter—too important to be lost—and therefore threw it together into the enclosed paper, which I sent to Townshend the night before last, together with a copy of such parts of his despatches as authorized you to pledge the faith of Government,he having asked me for them, not for himself.
While I was still in a state of suspense, your letter and despatch of the 29th reached me. I thought it best to keep the latter till this morning, when, I need hardly say, I did not deliver it, though I thought proper to read it to Townshend, in order, as I told him, that he might be perfectly acquainted with your feelings on the occasion, and might see I had not exaggerated them. You will remember that your next despatch is numbered 16. If it comes before you receive this, I will alter it. To-morrow you shall know the result of Lord Camden's conversation, upon which much I think depends; though after what has now passed, I have no idea of the possibility of their drawing back again, even if they were so inclined.
Brooke's business, Jemmy tells me, passed the Treasury yesterday.
You will have had an answer, such as it is, about the Duke of L. and Hussey Burgh.
With regard to Perry, I have written to you already fully on the subject.
I have talked once or twice about Portugal; but they want exceedingly to be quickened,là-dessus.
Townshend desires to make you an apology through me, and will do it himself when he writes, for the delay. From him no apology whatever is necessary. Adieu.
My dear brother,Ever yours,W. W. G.
When I pressed Lord Shelburne about Hussey Burgh, he said he thought there would be no objection to promising him that he should be made as soon as any one. I stated this to Townshend this morning, who is to speak to the King about it again to-morrow.
About this time another subject was engaging the earnest attention of Lord Temple—the foundation (already alluded to) of an Order of Knighthood in Ireland. Several letters relating to the details of the institution, and the claims of different noblemen to be admitted into it, passed between Mr. Grenville and his brother. The following is selected as a specimen:—
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.Pall Mall, Jan. 7th, 1783.My dear Brother,Although I think there is every reason to hope that I shall be able to send you by a messenger, either to-night or to-morrow morning at furthest, the result of the Cabinet, which, after having been postponed ever since Sunday, is at last to be held this evening; yet, as I know by experience, that it may be again deferred, I would not omit writing to you by post expressupon a subject which you will perhaps think trifling in itself. I went this morning to Townshend, with your despatches of the 2nd instant, upon which we had very little conversation, except his assurances of bringing the business to an end this evening. After that I turned the conversation to your Order, and read him the names. To my utter astonishment, he started a doubt whether my Lord Courtownwould take it. To which I answered, that the first names in the list having signified their consent, undoubtedly it was not a thing to be offered where there was the least chance of a refusal. He then said that he would take upon him to sound Lord Courtown; and that, as he was his brother-in-law, he would throw out to him that a thing of the sort was in agitation; and that if Lord Courtown should like it, he believed thathe, Townshend, would have interest enough toprocure it for him. It was impossible for me to tell Townshend, or even to give him to understand what nevertheless certainly ought to have occurred to him, that it would but ill answer your purpose, whatever it was, in recommending Lord Courtown, that the merit of it should be ascribed to him.I had nothing, therefore, left but to drop the conversation, and to write to you, as I now do, immediately on my return home, to suggest to you whether it would not be worth your while, without affecting to know anything of this, to write to Lord Courtown to offer it, and perhaps to Townshend, to make a great merit with him of the recommendation of his brother-in-law, as the only non-resident Knight. The sooner you send in the list and plan, &c., &c., undoubtedly the better.Your names appear to me all unexceptionable, except possibly Lord Bechoe, who you know will give some trouble to the heralds to make out whether his father, who was a grazier, ever had a father of his own. But he is a man of great fortune, and a steady friend of Government, and I should think might pass. Lord Nugent's refusal leaves a vacancy. I own I shouldbe inclined to Lord Mountgarret as the senior Viscount, which would show that it was not to be exclusively confined to Earls, at the same time that no other person could pretend the same claims with so old a peer, the senior Viscount, and the first man in rank of so great a family. Besides, this might detach Butler, of the county Kilkenny, from Flood; and it is surely a great object to cut him off from all hopes of the county, as that would give him an appearance of popularity, &c., &c. Unless you do something of this sort, shall you not apprehend affronting the lower orders of the peerage? If Lord Kinsale was not what he is, I should wish for him on the same account, but that is impossible. Pray consider the other well, for it strikes me as important.I return you the Derry Papers. Townshend is to search his office for their intercepted correspondence here, which I will send you.Bulkeley wrote me the enclosed, to which I returned an ostensible answer, referring to you, but at the same time distinguishing between a pension, and provision out of the revenue for a revenue officer's widow.Townshend sends you McLaughlin's petition and case. What does Lord Beauchamp mean by his letter to the "Vol." about the King's speech?Pray desire Lady Temple not to forget Lord Nugent's velvet, or he will be outrageous.Believe me, ever yours,W. W. G.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Jan. 7th, 1783.
My dear Brother,
Although I think there is every reason to hope that I shall be able to send you by a messenger, either to-night or to-morrow morning at furthest, the result of the Cabinet, which, after having been postponed ever since Sunday, is at last to be held this evening; yet, as I know by experience, that it may be again deferred, I would not omit writing to you by post expressupon a subject which you will perhaps think trifling in itself. I went this morning to Townshend, with your despatches of the 2nd instant, upon which we had very little conversation, except his assurances of bringing the business to an end this evening. After that I turned the conversation to your Order, and read him the names. To my utter astonishment, he started a doubt whether my Lord Courtownwould take it. To which I answered, that the first names in the list having signified their consent, undoubtedly it was not a thing to be offered where there was the least chance of a refusal. He then said that he would take upon him to sound Lord Courtown; and that, as he was his brother-in-law, he would throw out to him that a thing of the sort was in agitation; and that if Lord Courtown should like it, he believed thathe, Townshend, would have interest enough toprocure it for him. It was impossible for me to tell Townshend, or even to give him to understand what nevertheless certainly ought to have occurred to him, that it would but ill answer your purpose, whatever it was, in recommending Lord Courtown, that the merit of it should be ascribed to him.
I had nothing, therefore, left but to drop the conversation, and to write to you, as I now do, immediately on my return home, to suggest to you whether it would not be worth your while, without affecting to know anything of this, to write to Lord Courtown to offer it, and perhaps to Townshend, to make a great merit with him of the recommendation of his brother-in-law, as the only non-resident Knight. The sooner you send in the list and plan, &c., &c., undoubtedly the better.
Your names appear to me all unexceptionable, except possibly Lord Bechoe, who you know will give some trouble to the heralds to make out whether his father, who was a grazier, ever had a father of his own. But he is a man of great fortune, and a steady friend of Government, and I should think might pass. Lord Nugent's refusal leaves a vacancy. I own I shouldbe inclined to Lord Mountgarret as the senior Viscount, which would show that it was not to be exclusively confined to Earls, at the same time that no other person could pretend the same claims with so old a peer, the senior Viscount, and the first man in rank of so great a family. Besides, this might detach Butler, of the county Kilkenny, from Flood; and it is surely a great object to cut him off from all hopes of the county, as that would give him an appearance of popularity, &c., &c. Unless you do something of this sort, shall you not apprehend affronting the lower orders of the peerage? If Lord Kinsale was not what he is, I should wish for him on the same account, but that is impossible. Pray consider the other well, for it strikes me as important.
I return you the Derry Papers. Townshend is to search his office for their intercepted correspondence here, which I will send you.
Bulkeley wrote me the enclosed, to which I returned an ostensible answer, referring to you, but at the same time distinguishing between a pension, and provision out of the revenue for a revenue officer's widow.
Townshend sends you McLaughlin's petition and case. What does Lord Beauchamp mean by his letter to the "Vol." about the King's speech?
Pray desire Lady Temple not to forget Lord Nugent's velvet, or he will be outrageous.
Believe me, ever yours,W. W. G.
One good result had been attained by the perseverance with which Mr. Grenville pursued his object with Ministers in reference to the Renunciation Bill, and the consistency he observed in maintaining the policy which he and Lord Temple knew to be essential to the security of theBritish power in Ireland. If that policy was not carried out, Lord Temple was relieved from all responsibility, and was prepared to relinquish into other hands the confusion and disorder which he could not obtain the means of ameliorating. As Mr. Grenville observes in the following letter, he was "completely master of his own ground;" he had clearly stated, and constantly urged his views of the only course that could be followed with safety or credit; and if he failed in carrying them into effect, theonuswould rest with the Administration. Happily he did not fail. The Bill was shaped and passed; but the obstacles which impeded it, and which are detailed in subsequent letters, rendered its ultimate success doubtful up to the last moment.
Looking back, at this distance of time, upon the curious struggle which took place in the Cabinet on this question, we cannot fail to be struck by the immense disproportion between cause and effect exhibited in this strange episode in the history of the Shelburne Administration. The full recognition of the rights of Ireland had received the concurrent sanction of the Legislatures of both kingdoms only a short time before. No doubt whatever existed as to the intention of the repeal of the Declaratory Law. The Volunteers, to whose energetic demonstrations that healing measure was mainly attributable, were thoroughly satisfied, and, instead of displaying their nationality in angry and defiant resolutions, they adopted the language of congratulation and enthusiastic allegiance to the Government. This felicitous state of things was suddenly interrupted by one of those incidents which no foresight couldhave anticipated, and which, absolutely trivial in itself, was magnified at once, by the jealous spirit of patriotism, into a violation of the solemn compact that had just been ratified on both sides of the Channel. An Irish cause was brought into an English court of justice, was heard in the ordinary way, like any other cause, without reference to the competency of the tribunal before which it was tried, and decided, as a matter of course, by Lord Mansfield. The remedy for this contravention of the notorious settlement of the judicial independence of Ireland was plain. The decision was waste paper: it could not be carried into effect. The Irish might have rested satisfied with the power which they possessed of nullifying and rejecting the authority of the English Judge. But the delays of the Cabinet awakened their suspicions, and they apprehended, not, perhaps, very unnaturally, that if they suffered this single case of illegal interference to pass without some decisive declaration on the part of the English Legislature, it would be wrested into a precedent for further and still more dangerous innovations. Mr. Grattan held this opinion also, but trusted implicitly to the honour of the English Parliament for a measure that should fully set at rest all uneasiness on the subject; while Lord Temple was so impressed with the propriety of adopting such a measure that he drew up the Bill of Renunciation, which, after much superfluous discussion, ultimately passed into a law.
The case itself, however, lay in the narrowest compass, and admitted of the simplest solution. The Irish cause which had occasioned all this trouble, and menaced soseriously the tranquillity of the country, had been entered for hearingbeforethe operation of the Repeal, but delayed by some accident until a subsequent term. The reason why it was not dismissed when it came before the court was, that the time had elapsed for pleading against the competency of the court, pleadings having already begun upon the matter of the suit. The parties could not plead to the writ—to use the legal phraseology—because they had already pleaded in chief. The only time when, according to the practice of the court, the competency of the court could be objected to was when the cause was entered; but at that time the objection did not exist, and when the cause came on for hearing it was too late. Lord Mansfield took the cause without any reference to the special circumstances attending it, which he was not judicially called upon to notice. He acted strictly on the practice of the court; and, although it was held by some of the statesmen of the day that he ought to have taken a more enlarged view of so peculiar a case, it was the opinion of Mr. Fox that he could not have acted otherwise than he did. At all events, the case could never have been drawn into a precedent. The real point for consideration, upon which Mr. Fox—who had himself framed the Act of Repeal—entertained some doubts, was whether the Repeal was sufficiently minute and comprehensive in its scope, to extinguish the right of appeal in Irish cases, by writs of error, to the King's Bench of Great Britain. But this point was not raised, on its special merits, by Lord Mansfield's decision, which involved nothing more than a technical question arisingout of the practice of the court. It was wise to allay the feverish anxiety of the people, by removing any obscurity that hung over the settlement of the separate judicature of Ireland; but, such being clearly the intention of the Imperial Legislature, it is difficult to understand why it should have entailed so much clamour and misunderstanding.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.Pall Mall, Jan. 8th, 1783.My dear Brother,This morning I received your letter and despatch of the 3rd and 4th instant, and soon after, the enclosed note from Townshend. The general idea is, that they have received the exceedingly bad news of their negotiation being totally at an end; and the style of this letter seems, I must own, to confirm it. Before I close this letter, which shall not be till to-night, I shall most probably know with certainty. If it should be so, I see nothing in Lord Shelburne's conduct throughout this business, which can prevent me from being convinced that he has foreseen this conclusion, that theacquiescenceis to be ascribed to that foresight, and to an intention of pledging you to some very strong measure to be immediately proposed to Ireland—of men, money, or some other support; and that his language about peace was calculated for no other purpose than that of making to himself a merit which he had not, and inducing me to pledge you with less difficulty to something of this sort, in theimprobable eventof a continuation of the war. If that should have been his aim, I have at least the consolation to reflect that I made none but averygeneral answer to that part of his conversation to which I allude, and which I stated to you at length in a former letter.At the same time, I must freely own that I have been duped upon the subject of peace; not so much by their assurances, strong as those have been, and often as they have been repeated, as by the opinion which I then held, and which I have not much altered now, that a peace was absolutely necessary to their system of government. However, be all this as it may, I think you are in a situation tovoir venir, and to rest upon your oars in full confidence that you are now completely master of your own ground, whether you are to be left to carry on the Government of Ireland upon those principles on which you have begun it, and on which alone we know it can be carried on with success, or whether the system is to be altered, and committed, of course, to other hands; in which there is no doubt but that the ill-success and confusion that must follow will justify your predictions to such a degree, and place your character in such a light, as would almost make it an event to be wished for by you, if it was not so fatal to the interests of both countries.And this brings me to another point, in which I am very happy to feel myself justified and confirmed by your instructions in that line of conduct which I had fully resolved to adopt. I mean the holding out the most peremptory refusal to making either you or myself at all a party to postponing the business beyond the 21st, except in the single instance of their having some proposition to bring forward then, about their negotiations, of such a nature as to make the reason obvious to the mind of every man in Ireland, as well as in England. In such a case I will acquiesce, because I think I cannot in decency avoid it, under the delay of one day only. In every other case which can be supposed, I will claim a right to state to the House that the delay is neither consented to by you, nor arises from you; but is in your idea most pernicious. Surely, my own character and honour, as well as your's, demand this from me.I am sick to death of this scene. Since I wrote the first part of my letter I have been to the levée, where I saw Townshend, and learnt from him that Lord Camden had taken upon himself to draw up a new preamble, which wasto soften on both sides.—(What the meaning of this curious expression is, I will not pretend to say.) I then said, that at least I hoped it would contain anexplicitrecognition; because the measure would only be useful, in proportion as itwasexplicit. He agreed with me, as he had always done, and wished that I had seen Lord Camden. I asked if he was in town; he said he was to go back to-day to Chiselhurst, and had desiredhimto hold the council,in his absence, on Friday. I immediately went home, and wrote to Lord Camden, desiring to be allowed to wait upon him; but he was gone. I have just sent your despatch of the 4th, with the enclosed note to Townshend, which I hope will find him before dinner. How little does all this agree with Lord Shelburne's idea of doing what would be most satisfactory, and with all my fine reasoning at the beginning of my letter!I will certainly write to you more when I come back from dinner; and, if Icanmake him, Townshend shall write too, because they cannot, upon paper, assign any good reason for the delay, and a bad one will give you advantages. Upon the whole, what a scene it is!The news at Court was, that the negotiations are not broke off, only delayed; and this I take to be the real case, as no letter has been written to the Lord Mayor. If that be so, I shall of course hear no more of it to-day.Elliott is to have a Red Ribband.Jan. 10.I have delayed finishing this letter till this morning, in the vain hope of being able to get something specific to propose to you. After dinner, on the 8th, Townshend produced LordCamden's preamble. I send you a copy of it, and need not, I am sure, observe to you how unsatisfactory it is to Ireland, and how humiliating to Great Britain; and how perfect an ignorance it shows, after all that has passed, of that business which is referred to him for a decision. Neither Lord Shelburne, Townshend, nor Pitt, who were present, attempted to defend it against the observations I made upon it.Some conversation passed upon it, after which Townshend went away. The conversation then turned more particularly upon what was to be done, in which the only very settled idea that I could find was, that your preamble was not to be adopted.Pitt then threw out the idea of declaring the intention of the Act of Repeal, and making the new enacting clause a consequence of the principles then adopted. We talked this over a little. I pressed for something being settled to send over to you. The answer Lord Shelburne gave me was, that the Cabinet lawyers were all dispersed, and without them nothing could be finally settled. Pitt then went away. I continued the conversation, and asked Lord Shelburne if it would not be right, as he had approved of Pitt's idea, that I should see Pitt, and endeavour to put something upon paper upon it. In this he agreed.When I went home, I sent the enclosed note to Pitt, and in consequence of it saw him yesterday morning. I was near two hours with him, drawing up something of a form. At last, the Bill No. 1. was settled: more, I believe, because we were both tired out with weighing words, than for any great merit that I see in it. However, at the time I thought it might do; but in the course of the day, thinking it over, I disliked it, and sent the form No. 2. to Pitt, who desired to see me again. When I went to him, he proposed, after some conversation, the Bill No. 3., which I took to consider.But, in the meantime, I amau dernier pointat a loss whatto do in it; because, after an absence of six weeks, I know no more of the present ideas of people in Ireland, and of the squabbles and distinctions of words on which the whole turns, than the Ministers here do; and less, God knows, I cannot know! If you wait till something is formally sent you, I shall certainly be reduced to the necessity either of putting the business off, or of doing something in a hurry, without knowing whether it be right or wrong. For you may depend upon it, that neither will any of the unlearned Ministers pledge themselves to a specific form, nor will the learned come from their rural retreats one hour before the 17th.In this situation I feel myself obliged to lay upon my oars, and to entreat you to return the messenger as soon as possible, to say whether any and which of the forms will do, or what kind of thing I am to press for; for I am thrown quite wide. Your old preamble they will not adopt except compelled to it. What their objection is I cannot find; but most likely it is the dear delight of alteration that operates upon them. If you think that nothing short of saying "They have now the right" will do, for God's sake say so explicitly in a despatch. I have never quite lost my patience in this cursed business till this moment, and I confess now I cannot quite preserve it. After having carried the great point against their will and inclination, we shall now be ruined by their delay and their damned country-houses.If you don't like any of these forms I send you, and yet will notproposeany other, for God's sake send one over to me thatImay propose it, or bring their's as near as possible to it. Pray return your messenger as soon as you can, for this disappointment and anxiety works me more than I can express to you. Adieu.Believe me, my dearest brother,Most affectionately yours,W. W. G.You will observe that these cursed delays have driven us so near the mark, that it will be impossible for me to hear from you again before the 21st. You will, therefore, send me your full determination on every point, and in every case that you can foresee. Nobody can feel more than I do the painful necessity of being obliged to act upon my own judgment upon the general contents of your letters, instead of acting up to any specific idea. What increases my difficulty is the whole matter having arisen since I left Ireland, and my consequent ignorance of the language of individuals on every other part of the subject, except the preamble you sent over, to which they were pledged. Would to God that they would adhere to that!Ever yours,W. W. G.Pray return Lord Camden's preamble.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Jan. 8th, 1783.
My dear Brother,
This morning I received your letter and despatch of the 3rd and 4th instant, and soon after, the enclosed note from Townshend. The general idea is, that they have received the exceedingly bad news of their negotiation being totally at an end; and the style of this letter seems, I must own, to confirm it. Before I close this letter, which shall not be till to-night, I shall most probably know with certainty. If it should be so, I see nothing in Lord Shelburne's conduct throughout this business, which can prevent me from being convinced that he has foreseen this conclusion, that theacquiescenceis to be ascribed to that foresight, and to an intention of pledging you to some very strong measure to be immediately proposed to Ireland—of men, money, or some other support; and that his language about peace was calculated for no other purpose than that of making to himself a merit which he had not, and inducing me to pledge you with less difficulty to something of this sort, in theimprobable eventof a continuation of the war. If that should have been his aim, I have at least the consolation to reflect that I made none but averygeneral answer to that part of his conversation to which I allude, and which I stated to you at length in a former letter.
At the same time, I must freely own that I have been duped upon the subject of peace; not so much by their assurances, strong as those have been, and often as they have been repeated, as by the opinion which I then held, and which I have not much altered now, that a peace was absolutely necessary to their system of government. However, be all this as it may, I think you are in a situation tovoir venir, and to rest upon your oars in full confidence that you are now completely master of your own ground, whether you are to be left to carry on the Government of Ireland upon those principles on which you have begun it, and on which alone we know it can be carried on with success, or whether the system is to be altered, and committed, of course, to other hands; in which there is no doubt but that the ill-success and confusion that must follow will justify your predictions to such a degree, and place your character in such a light, as would almost make it an event to be wished for by you, if it was not so fatal to the interests of both countries.
And this brings me to another point, in which I am very happy to feel myself justified and confirmed by your instructions in that line of conduct which I had fully resolved to adopt. I mean the holding out the most peremptory refusal to making either you or myself at all a party to postponing the business beyond the 21st, except in the single instance of their having some proposition to bring forward then, about their negotiations, of such a nature as to make the reason obvious to the mind of every man in Ireland, as well as in England. In such a case I will acquiesce, because I think I cannot in decency avoid it, under the delay of one day only. In every other case which can be supposed, I will claim a right to state to the House that the delay is neither consented to by you, nor arises from you; but is in your idea most pernicious. Surely, my own character and honour, as well as your's, demand this from me.
I am sick to death of this scene. Since I wrote the first part of my letter I have been to the levée, where I saw Townshend, and learnt from him that Lord Camden had taken upon himself to draw up a new preamble, which wasto soften on both sides.—(What the meaning of this curious expression is, I will not pretend to say.) I then said, that at least I hoped it would contain anexplicitrecognition; because the measure would only be useful, in proportion as itwasexplicit. He agreed with me, as he had always done, and wished that I had seen Lord Camden. I asked if he was in town; he said he was to go back to-day to Chiselhurst, and had desiredhimto hold the council,in his absence, on Friday. I immediately went home, and wrote to Lord Camden, desiring to be allowed to wait upon him; but he was gone. I have just sent your despatch of the 4th, with the enclosed note to Townshend, which I hope will find him before dinner. How little does all this agree with Lord Shelburne's idea of doing what would be most satisfactory, and with all my fine reasoning at the beginning of my letter!
I will certainly write to you more when I come back from dinner; and, if Icanmake him, Townshend shall write too, because they cannot, upon paper, assign any good reason for the delay, and a bad one will give you advantages. Upon the whole, what a scene it is!
The news at Court was, that the negotiations are not broke off, only delayed; and this I take to be the real case, as no letter has been written to the Lord Mayor. If that be so, I shall of course hear no more of it to-day.
Elliott is to have a Red Ribband.
Jan. 10.
I have delayed finishing this letter till this morning, in the vain hope of being able to get something specific to propose to you. After dinner, on the 8th, Townshend produced LordCamden's preamble. I send you a copy of it, and need not, I am sure, observe to you how unsatisfactory it is to Ireland, and how humiliating to Great Britain; and how perfect an ignorance it shows, after all that has passed, of that business which is referred to him for a decision. Neither Lord Shelburne, Townshend, nor Pitt, who were present, attempted to defend it against the observations I made upon it.
Some conversation passed upon it, after which Townshend went away. The conversation then turned more particularly upon what was to be done, in which the only very settled idea that I could find was, that your preamble was not to be adopted.
Pitt then threw out the idea of declaring the intention of the Act of Repeal, and making the new enacting clause a consequence of the principles then adopted. We talked this over a little. I pressed for something being settled to send over to you. The answer Lord Shelburne gave me was, that the Cabinet lawyers were all dispersed, and without them nothing could be finally settled. Pitt then went away. I continued the conversation, and asked Lord Shelburne if it would not be right, as he had approved of Pitt's idea, that I should see Pitt, and endeavour to put something upon paper upon it. In this he agreed.
When I went home, I sent the enclosed note to Pitt, and in consequence of it saw him yesterday morning. I was near two hours with him, drawing up something of a form. At last, the Bill No. 1. was settled: more, I believe, because we were both tired out with weighing words, than for any great merit that I see in it. However, at the time I thought it might do; but in the course of the day, thinking it over, I disliked it, and sent the form No. 2. to Pitt, who desired to see me again. When I went to him, he proposed, after some conversation, the Bill No. 3., which I took to consider.
But, in the meantime, I amau dernier pointat a loss whatto do in it; because, after an absence of six weeks, I know no more of the present ideas of people in Ireland, and of the squabbles and distinctions of words on which the whole turns, than the Ministers here do; and less, God knows, I cannot know! If you wait till something is formally sent you, I shall certainly be reduced to the necessity either of putting the business off, or of doing something in a hurry, without knowing whether it be right or wrong. For you may depend upon it, that neither will any of the unlearned Ministers pledge themselves to a specific form, nor will the learned come from their rural retreats one hour before the 17th.
In this situation I feel myself obliged to lay upon my oars, and to entreat you to return the messenger as soon as possible, to say whether any and which of the forms will do, or what kind of thing I am to press for; for I am thrown quite wide. Your old preamble they will not adopt except compelled to it. What their objection is I cannot find; but most likely it is the dear delight of alteration that operates upon them. If you think that nothing short of saying "They have now the right" will do, for God's sake say so explicitly in a despatch. I have never quite lost my patience in this cursed business till this moment, and I confess now I cannot quite preserve it. After having carried the great point against their will and inclination, we shall now be ruined by their delay and their damned country-houses.
If you don't like any of these forms I send you, and yet will notproposeany other, for God's sake send one over to me thatImay propose it, or bring their's as near as possible to it. Pray return your messenger as soon as you can, for this disappointment and anxiety works me more than I can express to you. Adieu.
Believe me, my dearest brother,Most affectionately yours,W. W. G.
You will observe that these cursed delays have driven us so near the mark, that it will be impossible for me to hear from you again before the 21st. You will, therefore, send me your full determination on every point, and in every case that you can foresee. Nobody can feel more than I do the painful necessity of being obliged to act upon my own judgment upon the general contents of your letters, instead of acting up to any specific idea. What increases my difficulty is the whole matter having arisen since I left Ireland, and my consequent ignorance of the language of individuals on every other part of the subject, except the preamble you sent over, to which they were pledged. Would to God that they would adhere to that!
Ever yours,W. W. G.
Pray return Lord Camden's preamble.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.Pall Mall, Jan. 19th, 1783.My dear Brother,I received last night your letters of the 15th, and this morning went to Townshend with them. We proceeded together to the Premier's, who expressed great dissatisfaction at the contents of your despatch. We had a good deal of conversation about it, which ended in Townshend's proposing thatheshould on Tuesday move for leave to bring in the Bill, and that in the meantime your opinion might be taken on the preamble proposed by Lord Ashburton. I thought it worth while to fall in with this idea, provided, as I expressed myself, that the motion was made on Tuesday, and in such words as should be pledges to Ireland of satisfaction.My reason for this, was my wish that you should have an opportunity of seeing the enclosed preamble, which Townshend is to send you formally to-night, and judging upon it. Yousee it is directly adverse to the principle of recognition; still, as it is so very strong as to the future, and the doubts being capable of being referred to Lord Mansfield's decision, I cannot help hoping that it may do. On the other hand, it will certainly pass the two Houses better; because Lord Mansfield, the Chancellor, Lord Loughboroughand Lord Ashburton, will, in the case of a recognition, protest against the repeal being at all conclusive or satisfactory. This would be strong for us to meet, and therefore I think you may fairly take the new ground; express your adherence to your old opinion, that the Bill does not contradict it, but that it was an object to carry it with as little opposition and to make it as generally satisfactory as possible.I am to apologize to you in the strongest manner for not adhering to your positive instructions. But in such a case, and at this distance, one must act much on one's own judgment; and I cannot help thinking that if you had been on the spot, you would have done the same, considering how far they are pledged by Townshend's motion, and that there will be littleappearanceof delay.Jemmy agrees in opinion with me. I write this in great hurry, and need not exhort you to return an answer as early as possible. I have not at all pledged you to approve of Lord Ashburton's preamble, which,au contraire, I have combatted here, but have said: "I am incapable of judging," &c., &c.Ever yours,W. W. G.You must not be angry with Townshend for sending Lord Ashburton's Bill for your consideration, as I have taken that upon myself to him.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Jan. 19th, 1783.
My dear Brother,
I received last night your letters of the 15th, and this morning went to Townshend with them. We proceeded together to the Premier's, who expressed great dissatisfaction at the contents of your despatch. We had a good deal of conversation about it, which ended in Townshend's proposing thatheshould on Tuesday move for leave to bring in the Bill, and that in the meantime your opinion might be taken on the preamble proposed by Lord Ashburton. I thought it worth while to fall in with this idea, provided, as I expressed myself, that the motion was made on Tuesday, and in such words as should be pledges to Ireland of satisfaction.
My reason for this, was my wish that you should have an opportunity of seeing the enclosed preamble, which Townshend is to send you formally to-night, and judging upon it. Yousee it is directly adverse to the principle of recognition; still, as it is so very strong as to the future, and the doubts being capable of being referred to Lord Mansfield's decision, I cannot help hoping that it may do. On the other hand, it will certainly pass the two Houses better; because Lord Mansfield, the Chancellor, Lord Loughboroughand Lord Ashburton, will, in the case of a recognition, protest against the repeal being at all conclusive or satisfactory. This would be strong for us to meet, and therefore I think you may fairly take the new ground; express your adherence to your old opinion, that the Bill does not contradict it, but that it was an object to carry it with as little opposition and to make it as generally satisfactory as possible.
I am to apologize to you in the strongest manner for not adhering to your positive instructions. But in such a case, and at this distance, one must act much on one's own judgment; and I cannot help thinking that if you had been on the spot, you would have done the same, considering how far they are pledged by Townshend's motion, and that there will be littleappearanceof delay.
Jemmy agrees in opinion with me. I write this in great hurry, and need not exhort you to return an answer as early as possible. I have not at all pledged you to approve of Lord Ashburton's preamble, which,au contraire, I have combatted here, but have said: "I am incapable of judging," &c., &c.
Ever yours,W. W. G.
You must not be angry with Townshend for sending Lord Ashburton's Bill for your consideration, as I have taken that upon myself to him.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.Pall Mall, Jan. 22nd, 1783.My dear Brother,I sit down to give you a mere outline of what passed to-day. Townshend said that, in pursuance of the notice given before the holidays, he rose to submit to the House a proposition on the subject of Ireland; that he did not intend to go into the subject, but only to move for leave to bring in a Bill. He then read the motion; disclaimed every idea of impeaching the settlement of last year; stated that Lord Mansfield could not do otherwise; but that this had had the effect of increasing the doubts that had arisen in Ireland; that it was the intention of Government to leave no possibility of cavil upon the exclusive rights of judicature and legislation.I seconded the motion, and said, That as the motion which was made went only to the bringing in a Bill, it was not my intention to trouble the House with much upon the subject; but that in the situation in which I stood I could not, consistently with those feelings which pressed so strongly upon me, and with my sense of the duty I owed to both kingdoms, refrain from expressing the sincere and heartfelt pleasure I received from seeing the business brought forward by Government in the earliest moment, and the eager and earnest wish of my heart that the Bill to be brought in in consequence of this motion might obtain the end proposed by it, and set those questions for ever at rest which it was hoped that the transaction of the last year had fully and finally quieted; that here I must disavow in the strongest manner all intention of casting any reflection, or of acquiescing in any reflection, which might be cast on the honour and integrity of the transaction of last year as conducted by the Government of this country, and by the gentlemen who treated with Government on the part ofIreland; that those gentlemen had acted as true and sincere friends to their country, and to the harmony of the empire; that the right honourable gentleman who then moved the business in that House had declared at that time, and had repeated the declaration a few days ago, that those gentlemen treated with him upon the expressed and avowed principle of putting an end to every idea of legislation and jurisdiction on the part of Great Britain over Ireland; that as such I considered it; that the right honourable gentleman had also stated the reasons which operated, and I thought operated wisely, against the adoption of other ideas which had then occurred; that the dignity and honour of Ireland was too nearly connected with, and too inseparable from, the dignity and honour of Great Britain, to make them desire that Great Britain should humble herself by an acknowledgment that the right which she had so long exercised had been usurped; that, on the other hand, it would have been absurd to have asserted the right at the very moment that it was to be abandoned for ever: such an assertion could answer no good end, and could only serve to wound the feelings of a nation whom it was intended by that transaction to bind by the strongest ties of affection, as they were already bound by the strongest ties of interest, with Great Britain. These were the reasons why it had been brought forward in the manner in which it had; and every friend to both countries, or to either, must certainly wish that it had proved satisfactory. But it could not be concealed that doubts had arisen upon the operation and effect of the transaction, and that if such doubts had prevailed—if from reasons, possibly ill-founded, they had been adopted by many well-intentioned men, and if those doubts had been strengthened by the late decision of the Court of King's Bench, however necessary that decision might be, from the circumstance of the cause having been set down for hearing before anything had passed in the House on the subject of Ireland,and if that decision induced a necessity—as it certainly did—of passing a Bill for preventing any writ of error from being received, it was surely an act of policy and magnanimity in Great Britain, it was consistent with the honour and dignity of the House to set that question for ever at rest by an authentic and solemn avowal of that which was avowed by all the parties to the transaction, and to place upon the records of Parliament a lasting monument of the good faith and justice of Great Britain.It was with this view that I gave my most hearty consent and support to this motion; with this view that I hoped it would meet, not only with the general support, but, if I might be allowed to hope so much, with the unanimous concurrence of the House; because I wished very much to show to Ireland that it was the unanimous determination of the House to abide by those principles which had been unanimously adopted in the last session, which had at the opening of the present session received His Majesty's approbation, and had met again with the unanimous approbation of both Houses in their Addresses to the Throne; and because I wished also to demonstrate that nothing which had happened since last year—that no change which had taken place in the Government, either here or in Ireland; no alteration of the circumstances of this country, either with regard to Ireland or to the rest of the world; and particularly nothing of that which I hoped I, an uninformed man, might be allowed to call the near hope and prospect of peace—had made any difference whatever in those sentiments of justice, of liberality and of affection to Ireland which had actuated and, I trusted, ever would actuate, the conduct of the Parliament of Great Britain.After this there was a long conversation rather than debate.Eden said that he did not mean to oppose the motion; but that when he proposed the repeal last year, he had given his opinion that it would be and ought to be satisfactory. In thefirst opinion he was confirmed by the following paragraph in the Addresses: "Gratified in this, we const:" &c., &c.; that he thought the other was equally evident from the transaction itself, &c.; but that from the moment he found that the contrary idea was taken up by Mr. Walsh's precision, by Mr. Flood's prodigious ability, and by the Recorder's integrity, he knew it would prevail. He then said that there were still matters which required adjustment; and instanced several acts made Irish by Yelverton's Bill, which would expire in this country in the case of peace, and the re-enacting of which would not prevent their dropping in Ireland; but I own I doubt this on the construction of Yelverton's Bill.Fitzpatrick said he did not mean to oppose this Bill; but at the same time he was exceedingly sorry that the motion went beyond the mere case of judicature which called for the interference of Parliament; that it professed to remove jealousies and discontents; that this was impossible; that there would always be found men to start grounds of jealousies, &c.—men whose consequence arose only from ferment; that the body of the country was satisfied; spoke a good deal at different times about the Duke of Portland's friends and their honourable support.Lord Beauchamp said, that as far as he understood the intentions of Government, he approved of them—understanding them to go to a complete derilection of the right in terms so as not to be undone again. He entered at large into the arguments against simple repeal; and, in answer to Fitzpatrick, who had dwelt much on the resolution of the Houses of Parliament as speaking the sense of the nation, in contradiction to the Volunteer resolutions, said that he wondered to hear such an argument from him, who took the sense of the people of England in taverns and at clubs, &c., &c.Fitzpatrick replied to him: went over much the same ground; defended the simple repeal; then retorted uponLord Beauchamp; and took his pamphlet out of his pocket, and reading his last sentence, that his lips should be closed for ever upon the subject, observed that he, in his turn, was a little surprised, after this, to hear the noble Lord's lips opened to run a race with Government, &c., &c.I then desired to explain, that so far from saying that the Bill was to be grounded on the insufficiency of the repeal, I had said the direct contrary, and had stated a few days ago in the House, my full opinion that the faith of Great Britain had thereby been pledged to Ireland upon the avowed principle of putting an end to every idea of legislation and jurisdiction over that kingdom, and that nothing was implied by the present motion which went to impeach that.Fox then spoke. He went over the ground of simple repeal; defended Grattan and his friends very warmly; and seemed to imply pretty strongly, though he did not quite express it, that you was to abandon—to desert those men of high integrity and honour, whose great abilities were the smallest part of their merit, &c. It is impossible to go over the whole of what he said; but it chiefly turned upon these heads: he said that no Bill would do if there was not confidence; that such a system should be adopted as to ensure this confidence, not to humiliate the Parliament of Great Britain by bringing propositions founded on supposed discontents, &c.; that the judicature was given up, as far as related to appeals, by the repeal of the Declaratory Act; that writs of error were prohibited by the Irish Act; however, a Bill might be necessary to prevent here the exercise of a nugatory jurisdiction; but that if the preamble of that Bill was, as had been stated by Fitzpatrick and Lord Beauchamp, as a case to be approved of, to declare the intention, he did not conceive how it would alter the question at all, for if the repeal was ineffectual, it would not make it less so, &c.I again got up to desire that it might be understood that Ihad not said anything which could in any way be construed into an idea of abandoning, of deserting, &c., &c., men of whom I entertained the highest opinion—men in whose integrity I knew Government might confide with safety, and whose abilities were, as he had said, great as they were, the least part of their merit.Mr. Percival said something about a law to try persons for crimes committed in Ireland in England, and desired we would attend to that, and give it up. I mean to do so. MacDonald asked if it was meant that all idea of legislation and jurisdiction should be given up. Townshend said, undoubtedly.Pitt then closed the business with great ability. He said that he was happy to find that, although much conversation rather than debate had taken place, much of which he thought superfluous, still, as to the motion and the main object of it, the avowing in direct terms, &c., &c., that had been unanimously agreed to on all sides of the House. He added, in answer to Fox, that he trusted it would be found that the Government was placed, both in England and in Ireland, in the hands of persons who would not less merit the confidence, would adopt measures not less calculated to promote the peace, happiness and prosperity of Ireland, at the same time, with an attention not less scrupulous to the dignity of the English Parliament, than any other man or set of men whatever.Thus ended this business, without any division or opposition, every man having prefaced his speech with a declaration of his intention not to oppose the motion. I cannot help thinking that, considering all circumstances, and particularly considering my own very delicate and awkward situation, the whole has not gone off ill. I am impatient to receive your approbation of Dunning's Bill. You see what Fox would say of a preamble.You must not think of printing this debate, whatever you may do with my speech; because it would not be common justice to other people, whose speeches I have stated so veryloosely and shortly, and it would be known for a Government publication. I think, even for mine, you had better wait till you get the English papers, from which it would naturally be copied in Ireland, and then insert mine instead. Adieu.Ever yours.I enclose Mornington's account to Grattan.In my reply to Fox I said, that so far from any desertion, &c., &c., of the Duke of Portland's friends, all that was intended was, in the expressive words of one of those gentlemen: that as it was now necessary that Great Britain should speak again upon the Irish subject, she should speak clearly and openly.Those are not exactly his words; but they are in his letter to the "Trala Vol." Pray find them; for I think they describe the transaction well.
MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.
Pall Mall, Jan. 22nd, 1783.
My dear Brother,
I sit down to give you a mere outline of what passed to-day. Townshend said that, in pursuance of the notice given before the holidays, he rose to submit to the House a proposition on the subject of Ireland; that he did not intend to go into the subject, but only to move for leave to bring in a Bill. He then read the motion; disclaimed every idea of impeaching the settlement of last year; stated that Lord Mansfield could not do otherwise; but that this had had the effect of increasing the doubts that had arisen in Ireland; that it was the intention of Government to leave no possibility of cavil upon the exclusive rights of judicature and legislation.
I seconded the motion, and said, That as the motion which was made went only to the bringing in a Bill, it was not my intention to trouble the House with much upon the subject; but that in the situation in which I stood I could not, consistently with those feelings which pressed so strongly upon me, and with my sense of the duty I owed to both kingdoms, refrain from expressing the sincere and heartfelt pleasure I received from seeing the business brought forward by Government in the earliest moment, and the eager and earnest wish of my heart that the Bill to be brought in in consequence of this motion might obtain the end proposed by it, and set those questions for ever at rest which it was hoped that the transaction of the last year had fully and finally quieted; that here I must disavow in the strongest manner all intention of casting any reflection, or of acquiescing in any reflection, which might be cast on the honour and integrity of the transaction of last year as conducted by the Government of this country, and by the gentlemen who treated with Government on the part ofIreland; that those gentlemen had acted as true and sincere friends to their country, and to the harmony of the empire; that the right honourable gentleman who then moved the business in that House had declared at that time, and had repeated the declaration a few days ago, that those gentlemen treated with him upon the expressed and avowed principle of putting an end to every idea of legislation and jurisdiction on the part of Great Britain over Ireland; that as such I considered it; that the right honourable gentleman had also stated the reasons which operated, and I thought operated wisely, against the adoption of other ideas which had then occurred; that the dignity and honour of Ireland was too nearly connected with, and too inseparable from, the dignity and honour of Great Britain, to make them desire that Great Britain should humble herself by an acknowledgment that the right which she had so long exercised had been usurped; that, on the other hand, it would have been absurd to have asserted the right at the very moment that it was to be abandoned for ever: such an assertion could answer no good end, and could only serve to wound the feelings of a nation whom it was intended by that transaction to bind by the strongest ties of affection, as they were already bound by the strongest ties of interest, with Great Britain. These were the reasons why it had been brought forward in the manner in which it had; and every friend to both countries, or to either, must certainly wish that it had proved satisfactory. But it could not be concealed that doubts had arisen upon the operation and effect of the transaction, and that if such doubts had prevailed—if from reasons, possibly ill-founded, they had been adopted by many well-intentioned men, and if those doubts had been strengthened by the late decision of the Court of King's Bench, however necessary that decision might be, from the circumstance of the cause having been set down for hearing before anything had passed in the House on the subject of Ireland,and if that decision induced a necessity—as it certainly did—of passing a Bill for preventing any writ of error from being received, it was surely an act of policy and magnanimity in Great Britain, it was consistent with the honour and dignity of the House to set that question for ever at rest by an authentic and solemn avowal of that which was avowed by all the parties to the transaction, and to place upon the records of Parliament a lasting monument of the good faith and justice of Great Britain.
It was with this view that I gave my most hearty consent and support to this motion; with this view that I hoped it would meet, not only with the general support, but, if I might be allowed to hope so much, with the unanimous concurrence of the House; because I wished very much to show to Ireland that it was the unanimous determination of the House to abide by those principles which had been unanimously adopted in the last session, which had at the opening of the present session received His Majesty's approbation, and had met again with the unanimous approbation of both Houses in their Addresses to the Throne; and because I wished also to demonstrate that nothing which had happened since last year—that no change which had taken place in the Government, either here or in Ireland; no alteration of the circumstances of this country, either with regard to Ireland or to the rest of the world; and particularly nothing of that which I hoped I, an uninformed man, might be allowed to call the near hope and prospect of peace—had made any difference whatever in those sentiments of justice, of liberality and of affection to Ireland which had actuated and, I trusted, ever would actuate, the conduct of the Parliament of Great Britain.
After this there was a long conversation rather than debate.
Eden said that he did not mean to oppose the motion; but that when he proposed the repeal last year, he had given his opinion that it would be and ought to be satisfactory. In thefirst opinion he was confirmed by the following paragraph in the Addresses: "Gratified in this, we const:" &c., &c.; that he thought the other was equally evident from the transaction itself, &c.; but that from the moment he found that the contrary idea was taken up by Mr. Walsh's precision, by Mr. Flood's prodigious ability, and by the Recorder's integrity, he knew it would prevail. He then said that there were still matters which required adjustment; and instanced several acts made Irish by Yelverton's Bill, which would expire in this country in the case of peace, and the re-enacting of which would not prevent their dropping in Ireland; but I own I doubt this on the construction of Yelverton's Bill.
Fitzpatrick said he did not mean to oppose this Bill; but at the same time he was exceedingly sorry that the motion went beyond the mere case of judicature which called for the interference of Parliament; that it professed to remove jealousies and discontents; that this was impossible; that there would always be found men to start grounds of jealousies, &c.—men whose consequence arose only from ferment; that the body of the country was satisfied; spoke a good deal at different times about the Duke of Portland's friends and their honourable support.
Lord Beauchamp said, that as far as he understood the intentions of Government, he approved of them—understanding them to go to a complete derilection of the right in terms so as not to be undone again. He entered at large into the arguments against simple repeal; and, in answer to Fitzpatrick, who had dwelt much on the resolution of the Houses of Parliament as speaking the sense of the nation, in contradiction to the Volunteer resolutions, said that he wondered to hear such an argument from him, who took the sense of the people of England in taverns and at clubs, &c., &c.
Fitzpatrick replied to him: went over much the same ground; defended the simple repeal; then retorted uponLord Beauchamp; and took his pamphlet out of his pocket, and reading his last sentence, that his lips should be closed for ever upon the subject, observed that he, in his turn, was a little surprised, after this, to hear the noble Lord's lips opened to run a race with Government, &c., &c.
I then desired to explain, that so far from saying that the Bill was to be grounded on the insufficiency of the repeal, I had said the direct contrary, and had stated a few days ago in the House, my full opinion that the faith of Great Britain had thereby been pledged to Ireland upon the avowed principle of putting an end to every idea of legislation and jurisdiction over that kingdom, and that nothing was implied by the present motion which went to impeach that.
Fox then spoke. He went over the ground of simple repeal; defended Grattan and his friends very warmly; and seemed to imply pretty strongly, though he did not quite express it, that you was to abandon—to desert those men of high integrity and honour, whose great abilities were the smallest part of their merit, &c. It is impossible to go over the whole of what he said; but it chiefly turned upon these heads: he said that no Bill would do if there was not confidence; that such a system should be adopted as to ensure this confidence, not to humiliate the Parliament of Great Britain by bringing propositions founded on supposed discontents, &c.; that the judicature was given up, as far as related to appeals, by the repeal of the Declaratory Act; that writs of error were prohibited by the Irish Act; however, a Bill might be necessary to prevent here the exercise of a nugatory jurisdiction; but that if the preamble of that Bill was, as had been stated by Fitzpatrick and Lord Beauchamp, as a case to be approved of, to declare the intention, he did not conceive how it would alter the question at all, for if the repeal was ineffectual, it would not make it less so, &c.
I again got up to desire that it might be understood that Ihad not said anything which could in any way be construed into an idea of abandoning, of deserting, &c., &c., men of whom I entertained the highest opinion—men in whose integrity I knew Government might confide with safety, and whose abilities were, as he had said, great as they were, the least part of their merit.
Mr. Percival said something about a law to try persons for crimes committed in Ireland in England, and desired we would attend to that, and give it up. I mean to do so. MacDonald asked if it was meant that all idea of legislation and jurisdiction should be given up. Townshend said, undoubtedly.
Pitt then closed the business with great ability. He said that he was happy to find that, although much conversation rather than debate had taken place, much of which he thought superfluous, still, as to the motion and the main object of it, the avowing in direct terms, &c., &c., that had been unanimously agreed to on all sides of the House. He added, in answer to Fox, that he trusted it would be found that the Government was placed, both in England and in Ireland, in the hands of persons who would not less merit the confidence, would adopt measures not less calculated to promote the peace, happiness and prosperity of Ireland, at the same time, with an attention not less scrupulous to the dignity of the English Parliament, than any other man or set of men whatever.
Thus ended this business, without any division or opposition, every man having prefaced his speech with a declaration of his intention not to oppose the motion. I cannot help thinking that, considering all circumstances, and particularly considering my own very delicate and awkward situation, the whole has not gone off ill. I am impatient to receive your approbation of Dunning's Bill. You see what Fox would say of a preamble.
You must not think of printing this debate, whatever you may do with my speech; because it would not be common justice to other people, whose speeches I have stated so veryloosely and shortly, and it would be known for a Government publication. I think, even for mine, you had better wait till you get the English papers, from which it would naturally be copied in Ireland, and then insert mine instead. Adieu.
Ever yours.
I enclose Mornington's account to Grattan.
In my reply to Fox I said, that so far from any desertion, &c., &c., of the Duke of Portland's friends, all that was intended was, in the expressive words of one of those gentlemen: that as it was now necessary that Great Britain should speak again upon the Irish subject, she should speak clearly and openly.
Those are not exactly his words; but they are in his letter to the "Trala Vol." Pray find them; for I think they describe the transaction well.
Rumours of resignations and changes, short as the term of the Administration had been up to this time, were beginning to be bruited abroad. As yet there was nothing certain: Pitt was firm, and Shelburne mysterious as usual; but it could no longer be concealed that the Cabinet, in addition to the dangers which threatened it from without, was suffering in its influence from internal dissensions.