3253. Is that a usual sort of transaction?-No. I never heard them asking for money before; at least not asking for it in that way. I have heard them wanting to get the same price in money that they got in goods.
3254. Is that a common thing for them to ask?-Well, it is.
3255. Do you know anything about the work-book?-Yes.
3256. Do you sometimes settle the accounts in that book with the knitters?-Occasionally, when the clerk is out.
3257. Are the items in the account always read over to the knitter?-Yes.
3258. Is there any receipt or acknowledgment given when an account is settled?-Occasionally they take a line for the amount if the balance is in their favour, because sometimes the shop is so crowded that we don't have time to turn up the account.
3259. In that case the account is marked as settled in full?-Yes.
3260. In other cases the balance is carried to the next account simply, without any line?-Yes.
3261. Is the work-book kept in the shop, or in the office at the back?-We used to keep it in the shop, but they came and bothered us at the time we were writing, and we thought it better to keep it in the office. But we take the book into the front shop, and read the items over to them when we settle.
3262. If a woman comes with work and gets it entered in the work-book, and then wants a certain quantity of goods, do you communicate with the clerk at the back before giving out the goods, in order to see the state of her account?-Yes.
3263. Who enters the goods in the book?-The clerk, when he is present; or if he is not present, then any of us who retail the goods may enter them.
3264. Do you go into the back shop for the purpose of doing that?-I take down a note of the goods they get on a slip of paper.
3265. And the contents of that slip are entered into the book?- Yes, by the clerk.
3266. Then there may be a great number of these slips to enter in the course of the day?-They are handed to the clerk at once. If he is busy about anything else, any of us may take the book and mark the goods in ourselves.
3267. Are these slips preserved?-No.
3268. They are just destroyed when entered?-Yes. I have occasionally given them to the people themselves, if it was a case where they were getting goods for another person. If they had been sent an errand by any one, I have handed them their slip, in order to show the person who sent them what they had got.
3269. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I wish to say that in a very short time the Shetland wool will be entirely destroyed, because the breed of sheep is wearing out. The Cheviot wool is taking its place.
3270. You mean that the introduction of Cheviot sheep into Shetland is entirely destroying the breed of native sheep?-Yes.
3271. Do you do a good deal in purchasing wool from the Shetland people?-No; I don't purchase but I know the quality of it.
3272. Do you find from the qualities that pass through your hands, that the Shetland wool is not so good as it used to be?-Yes; it is deteriorating very much.
3273. You find it is becoming more like what you buy from the south?-Yes; there is a great difference upon it. There is more elasticity in the Shetland wool than in the Pyrenees wool.
3274. Do you buy the wool yourself?-No; it is spun and knitted by people.
3275. Do they bring it to you, or have you people who gather it in for you?-They bring it to us to the shop: and I have heard the people very often making complaints that they could not get wool at all from any source.
3276. How do you buy wool?-We do not buy wool at all.
3277. Do you buy Shetland worsted?-Yes.
3278. Do the spinners bring it to your shop and sell it?-Very seldom. We buy it mostly from merchants in the country-in Unst and Fetlar. When a spinner comes in with worsted, she generally wants ready money for it.
3279. When a woman comes with it or sends it, how is she paid?-She gets anything she asks for-either goods at wholesale prices, or the cash.
3280. When you buy worsted and give goods for it, you give them at the wholesale prices it is the same as cash?-Yes.
3281. Are there many merchants who deal in that kind of way?-I suppose most of them do so in the places where it is made. It is mostly in the north isles. Occasionally, I think, they do a little in Dunrossness.
3282. Is it bought in by a shopkeeper at Dunrossness?-I don't know how it is done. I simply know that there are some goods made there.
3283. But where do you get your worsted from?-We don't get worsted from any merchant in Dunrossness. I was merely stating where the worsted was spun.
3284. Do you get Shetland worsted from merchants in the north of the mainland as well as in the north isles?-Yes.
3285. Do you get any from Mossbank or Lunna?-No.
3286. Do you get any from Northmavine?-I think we get a little worsted from a merchant there. The books will show where it is got.
3287. Do you know about the prices paid for goods bought in the shop? I don't mean goods knitted you, but goods bought?-Yes.
3288. What do you generally pay for a dozen of men's hose?-I think about 20s.-sometimes more, but very seldom less. That is a thing very seldom sold now, except knickerbocker stockings.
3289. I see in an account five white lace shawls sold each. What would be the price of these if bought over the counter?-8s. in goods.
3290. If paid in cash, what would the price be?-About is 9d., I should say.
3291. Do you buy many of them for cash?-We sometimes buy the larger things for cash. I have been in the shop when large shawls were paid for in that way.
3292. In the same account I see twelve hap-shawls at 11s. 6d.: what would these be bought for across the counter?-It is very likely that 11s. 6d. would be paid for them in goods.
3293. In this account I see one hap-shawl entered at 14s., and then at 13s.: what does that mean?-It means that 14s., was paid for it, and it was sold for 13s. Perhaps it may have been slightly ill-coloured.
3294. In the wholesale trade list which has been given in, I see white, brown, and grey shawls, natural colours, charged 8s. 6d. to 18s.: do you know, from what you see in the shop, the prices at which these are generally bought over the counter?-They are just bought at the same prices at which they are invoiced, and which are put down there.
3295. When a shawl is brought to the shop and paid for in goods, is it ticketed for the south market?-Yes; the fine shawls are ticketed.
3296. Wrap or winter shawls, 8s. 6d.: would these be ticketed?- No.
3297. Why?-Because my father knows the prices so well; they are sold by measure.
3298. The prices at which they are charged do not depend so much on fancy?-No.
3299. Then the prices of these shawls are fixed afterwards?-Yes.
3300. How do you know that the prices which are charged for these shawls are the same as have been paid for them over the counter?-Because I have seen haps sold at the counter for 8s. 6d.; and afterwards, [Page 74] when they were ready for the market, they were charged at the same, or nearly the same, price.
3301. Don't you sometimes see them charged at a higher price?-I cannot say exactly, because I do not always notice what the prices are; but I know that I have sometimes seen the same prices charged. I have noticed that particularly in haps.
3302. There are grey and brown long shawls, 20s. to 24s. are these also haps?-Yes.
3303. Are they generally bought at from 20s. to 24s.?-Yes.
3304. And sold at the same prices?-Yes, I have noticed that.
3305. You have nothing to do with the pricing of them yourself?- Nothing at all. I merely see the tickets, and recognise the article. Perhaps there was something particular about it which led me to recognise it.
3306. How often has that happened?-I could not say.
3307. Has it happened a dozen times?-It has surely happened more than a dozen times. That is a very small number.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, JOHN JAMES BRUCE, examined.
3308. Are you a shopman to Mr. Sinclair?-Yes.
3309. You are not the bookkeeper?-No.
3310. Do you know the prices at which hosiery goods are bought across the counter?-Yes.
3311. Do you also know the prices at which these same goods are invoiced to the southern market?-Yes.
3312. Is the price at which they are bought and the price at which they are sold the same, or different, on the ordinary run of goods?-They are charged to the wholesale or the retail dealer in the south at the same price as we pay for them in goods at the counter.
3313. Is that the invariable practice?-Yes.
3314. The goods, I understand, are not all ticketed when bought?-Fine shawls are generally ticketed, but haps and other goods are judged of afterwards, when being looked out in order to be sent to the market in the south.
3315. In the case of fine shawls, is it within your own knowledge that the ticket put upon them at the time of the purchase bears generally the same price as has been paid for them in goods?- Yes. Mr Sinclair puts up these goods himself for the market, and the ticket is put on them at the time of the purchase, in order to bring to his remembrance, when he is putting them up for the market, the price he paid for them at the counter.
3316. In all these cases there is only one valuation of the shawl, and it is made to the person who brings it to you for sale?-Yes.
3317. The ticket is put on them, and the invoice price is the same as the price on the ticket?-Yes, the same.
3318. Do you make no allowance, in that case, for the loss upon the dressing or the dyeing of the shawl?-When a girl comes with an article that is ill-coloured, she may ask a certain price for it; but we state that we cannot give her that price, owing to it being ill-coloured, and that it requires to be dyed. In that case we deduct the price of the dyeing from the price which is paid to her.
3319. Is that deduction made before the price is put on the ticket?-We don't ticket it then. It has to be sent south to the dyer, and to come back and to be dressed here.
3320. In that case you must make an estimate, because you cannot identify the shawl afterwards?-No; we just leave it to our own judgment afterwards.
3321. Then it appears that you don't invoice the goods at exactly the same price that is paid in every case?-We don't invoice them at the same price if we are selling them to private individuals; but when we sell them to a retail dealer, we invoice them at the same price.
3322. But you have said that very often you require to send them to the dyer, in which case they are not ticketed at the time you purchase them?-No; but the retail dealer must pay for the dyeing.
3323. But the goods are not always ticketed at the time they are bought?-No; not always. I did not say they were.
3324. Are they ticketed, as a rule, when they are bought?-The finest of the lace goods or shawls are ticketed.
3325. And veils?-No, not veils; but the fine lace shawls are generally ticketed.
3326. How is the invoice price of the veils fixed, if they are not ticketed when they are bought?-We can easily judge of the quality of a veil by looking at it, and we can tell what we paid for it. Of course, in fixing the price, we always refer to what we paid for it, and we know that at a glance by the quality of the work and the worsted.
3327. You cannot tell what you paid for a particular lot of veils, because you cannot identify them?-No.
3328. But you know by the quality what they likely to have cost you?-Yes.
3329. Is the price at which veils are sold generally the same as that at which they are bought?-Yes. Veils which have been bought across the counter are charged at the same price that we consider we paid for them.
3330. Are many of the shawls dyed?-A good many. Some are dyed on account of being ill-coloured. Perhaps we don't discover, at the time when they are taken in over the counter, that they are ill-coloured; we only find that out afterwards, and then we have to dye them. Sometimes we dye shawls, not on account of them being ill-coloured, but because we require them of a particular colour.
3331. Is that done with fine shawls?-Both with fine and coarse.
3332. But not with haps?-Sometimes with haps too. We dye haps scarlet and black.
3333. Therefore there is a considerable quantity of the shawl goods which it is not possible to ticket at the time when they are bought, because they have afterwards to be dyed-Yes, a considerable quantity.
3334. And, in that case, the price is fixed afterwards, according to your own notions of the quality?-Yes.
3335. Who fixes the invoice price of shawls when they are sent out finally to the market?-Mr. Sinclair himself. He takes that department.
3336. Do you know whether, in doing so, he takes into account the market price in the south?-Although he makes up the articles, they pass through my hands in packing, and I see the tickets. They generally have a ticket on them, in order to guide the clerk in checking them and entering them into the book.
3337. But you don't know the principle on which Mr. Sinclair values these shawls when they are invoiced?-He just judges of them in the same manner as he did at first when taking them in over the counter.
3338. What proportion of the shawls may be revalued in that way?-Will it be one-third or one-half of them?-They are all re-valued in that way, unless those which are ticketed.
3339. But what proportion of them are not ticketed at first?-I could not say.
3340. Is it not the case that very few of them are ticketed at first?-There are only the finest lace shawls that are ticketed at first.
3341. Therefore the bulk of the shawls are not ticketed then, but valued afterwards?-Yes; they are valued in the same manner at that time as they were when taken in at the counter.
3342. Are you in a position to state whether or not that valuation which is made when they are sent out exceeds the valuation which is put upon them when they are purchased for the market?-I have reason to believe from Mr. Sinclair's long experience in the trade, that he will know to a fraction what he paid for the [Page 75] shawls; and I can swear that they are not charged by him at a higher price than the price which was paid for them in goods at the counter. Of course deductions are made afterwards by the wholesale dealer, if he thinks the article is inferior.
3343. Do you issue the lines which are given out in the shop?-I very often issue lines. I perhaps issue more of them than any one else.
3344. Do you also serve customers who have lines?-Yes.
3345. Is it consistent with your knowledge, that the lines are generally brought back by the parties to whom they were originally given out?-They are generally brought back by the owner of the hosiery.
3346. Is it the party herself to whom the line has been given that usually brings it back?-Very often but sometimes they may send a line in by another party as a messenger.
3347. How do you know that?-Sometimes a line may be brought back an hour after it has been given out, by a different party, and they will perhaps make remark in order to let me know that they have been sent by the party to whom the line belonged.
3348. Are you aware that the lines are exchanged or sold by the parties to whom they were first issued?-I have heard something to that effect this very morning.
3349. But you have not known of that in your own experience?- No. It has not come under my notice, unless from report.
3350. Does the party bringing one of these lines for goods ever tell you that she had purchased it?-No. I don't remember an instance of that kind.
3351. You don't remember any particular case in which there had been a sale of the line for cash, or for other goods which you don't supply?-I say there was an instance this morning which came under my notice, in which a line had been exchanged, and in which the party had got cash for the line.
3352. From whom had the cash been got?-I could give the name of the party to whom the line belonged, but not of the other party.
3353. Was that an instance of a line being brought back by a person to whom it had not been originally issued?-No; it was merely a party in the shop who said that some time ago-she did not state the time-she had a line which she had given to another person, and had got cash for it. But at the same time she said that she did not ask cash from Mr. Sinclair, or she might have got it. She felt diffident in asking for cash, because she had brought her hosiery to the shop on the understanding that she was to take goods for it. The receipt she got had not been a cash transaction.
3354. Is that the only time, in your experience in the shop, that you have heard of these lines being exchanged for cash, or for other goods than those which Mr. Sinclair sells?-It is the only one I can point to in particular.
3355. But do you swear that you don't know that lines have been so exchanged?-No, I would not swear that. I said I have heard a vague report that on several occasions they have been exchanged, but I could not point to any other case than the one I have mentioned.
3356. Is cash ever given in your shop upon lines?-Yes, often. It is given on lines, even when the hosiery article has been taken in over the counter with understanding that the party was to take all goods for it.
3357. The lines bear that their value is to be given in goods but notwithstanding that you know that cash had been given on them?-Yes.
3358. How often?-I could not say how often, but I can point to one woman in particular who has got cash in that way. She stated that she was in need of it, and she got it even when the hosiery article was taken with the understanding that only goods were to be given for it.
3359. In that case, was any discount taken for cash?-No.
3360. Was the whole amount given in cash?-Yes, all cash. She said she required it to buy meal with.
3361. What was the amount of that line?-It was the case with that woman on several lines, not on one line in particular.
3362. Who was the woman?-I should prefer to give her name in private.
3363. What proportion of her line was given in cash?-I could not say what proportion, but she got the proportion she asked for. Of course, when giving money in that way, we considered it was a deduction from the profit on our goods.
3364. Then it was given as a sort of charity?-It might be considered as a sort of favour, because it was a deduction from our profit.
3365. Do you say that it was really a deduction from the profit?- Yes.
3366. But you said before, and I have been informed by other parties, that there is no profit at all upon the hosiery goods; so that if you pay the lines in cash, you take away all the profit you make upon a purchase of hosiery?-Yes; that is only if we charge the wholesale dealer the same price.
3367. But you say that, practically, the wholesale dealer is charged the same price?-Yes. Even should we pay the same price in cash as we get from the wholesale dealer, if we were sure that this party would come back to the shop with the money which we gave her and take our goods, it would not be a loss; but if she did not come back, then there would be a loss.
3368. In other words, the effect of the lines and of paying in goods is, that these sellers of hosiery are bound to take their goods at your shop, instead of another; and therein lies your profit?-Of course. We just have our profit on the goods. We have two sales for one profit.
3369. But you say that although you suspected, and had heard from rumour, that these lines were commonly exchanged for money or for other goods than you dealt in, you have known of no particular case except the one you have mentioned?-No.
3370. Have you known of cases where goods which had been delivered in return for hosiery had been exchanged by the women for other goods or for cash?-I could not point out any case.
3371. Did you ever hear of any case?-I could not point out any one.
3372. But did you ever hear of any such case?-I have heard that rumour, the same as I heard of the other thing.
3373. Have the women told you that themselves?-Yes; just speaking of it among the crowd in the shop.
3374. You don't remember the names of these women?-I do not.
3375. Have you any doubt at all that that is done?-No; I am led to believe that it is done.
3376. How are you led to believe that?-Because I have heard the vague report so often-not once, but several times.
3377. Does that report lead you to believe that it is done to any great extent?-I could not say to what extent.
3378. How does report speak of it?-Just that it was not uncommon. The report did not say that it was very common, but only that it was common.
3379. Do you swear that you cannot remember the names of any women who have done it?-I do.
3380. Or who have spoken to you about it?-None, except the one who has said it to-day
3381. Or that you have heard speak of it?-No.
3382. In the journal, or work-book, I see that there is sometimes a line entered. I do not mean merely that the balance is struck, but sometimes there are entries, 'To lines.' Can you explain that?- Sometimes the party that the account belongs to will have to pay another party so much, and she gives us instructions to mark a line for a certain amount in the book, and then give her that line to give to the other party, who comes back with it and gets the amount in goods.
3383. Then the line is granted to your knitters for the purpose of paying their debt to another?-Yes.
3384. Is that frequently done?-Not very often. [Page 76] It has happened occasionally. I have entered such lines myself in the work-book; and sometimes, although not very often, when looking over their account, instead of taking the balance that may be in their favour, they will take a line for it. I may say, however, that where hosiery has been taken from a person on the understanding that they were to take all goods for it, I have never known a case where cash was refused to them when they said they were in need of it.
3385. That just amounts to this: that Mr. Sinclair, in a case of that kind, throws away the whole of his profit?-Yes; it shows a charitable spirit in Mr. Sinclair.
3386. In the case of Mary Ann Sinclair, there was an entry in the journal of cash paid to William Smith for meal: can you explain how that was done?-I heard Mr. Sinclair's examination about that. His attention was directed to an entry of 'Cash, for meal,' he was asked why that was not entered merely cash. I cannot say whether the entry was in my writing or not, but I remember that girl coming into the shop and asking for cash, and she made a remark that it was for meal. I think that the entry is in my hand, and that I just put it down as she said it.
3387. The giving of that cash was a deviation from your usual practice?-Yes, these parties depend chiefly upon the knitting, and they get a larger supply of cash than the general workers. There are not many cases, I don't think we have a similar case in the town, where the parties depend entirely on their knitting. Our knitters belong chiefly to the country, and the knitting is with them an extra piece of work.
3388. In the same witness's account there was another entry of 'Cash, for meal:' do you explain that in the same way?-Yes; but of course they were at liberty to go to any shop for it they liked.
3389. Does the entry, 'To William Smith, for meal,' mean that you paid the money directly to Smith?-Sometimes we did. His account would show that the amount which he received from us was just the same as had been marked to the women. In his account he would state that he had given out so much meal to them.
3390. Has Mr. Smith an account with R. Sinclair & Co.?- Sometimes there was an account between them at that time.
3391. Was that account for supplies to work-people?-Sometimes it would be for such supplies along with Mr. Sinclair's personal account.
3392. Does Mr. Smith make frequent supplies to Mr. Sinclair's work-people?-No; it has not been done very frequently.
3393. To what class of work-people are these supplies made?- Chiefly to the party who has been already examined, Mary Ann Sinclair, and that has not been done of late. These girls have not been so dependent on their knitting lately, because they have got help from another quarter.
3394. Then this payment for meal, and that payment to W. Smith for meal, were really so much taken out of Mr. Sinclair's profit?- I think so, because their knitting was estimated at the goods price, not at the cash price.
3395. I see that in the same account there are other two entries of purchases of meal?-Yes, that was merely put down because the parties said they wanted meal, and for a considerable time they had just a weekly allowance.
3396. The entries of these two purchases of meal are really equivalent to entries of cash?-Yes; sometimes when it is said, 'Cash, for meal,' they got the cash into their own hands.
3397. And sometimes it was entered in the account with Mr. Smith?-Yes.
3398. Was that account of Mr. Smith's a personal account of Mr. Sinclair's?-I suppose it was just made out as an account of R. Sinclair & Co.
3399. What was the nature of the dealings with Smith? Have you seen his account?-I cannot remember. I saw the account when it was handed in, but I cannot say what was in it.
3400. You don't know about it personally?-No.
3401. Is there anything you wish to state on the subject of this inquiry?-I wish to state that, supposing a new system of cash payments is adopted, there will be a change, which I don't think will be altogether in favour of the worker. No doubt it would be to some extent.
3402. What difference would there be?-I shall suppose that a woman comes in with a shawl, say to-day, while the present system exists, and gets 20s. in goods. She wants grey cotton, and she will get forty yards of it for her 20s. To-morrow she comes in, and the system is changed, and she must be paid in cash. Well, she gets the cash, and she requires the same kind of goods, but she thinks there is no need for going out of the shop, as the goods here are as cheap as anywhere else. Then she will get for her cash the usual discount of 5 per cent. That would be 16s. 91/2d., and she would only have then about thirty-three yards of cotton instead of forty yards.
3403. But in the case you have supposed, would not the cotton be sold cheaper, because the merchant would not require to put all his profit on the cotton, as you say he does now, but he would also put a profit on the hosiery; and therefore he could afford to sell the cotton at a smaller profit?-The merchant would not have two profits on his hosiery.
3404. If he was buying for cash, he would?-No, it would merely be embarking his capital a second time.
3405. If he were buying the shawl for 16s. in cash, would he not sell it for 20s., as he does just now?-Yes; he would embark that cash again.
3406. That allows a profit of 4s. upon the hosiery, perhaps under deductions for certain contingencies; but it certainly allows a profit which on your own statement, he does not have now. According to your own statement, there is no profit on the hosiery now, because it is bought for the same price in goods as it is sold for; but if he were paying 16s. in cash for it, there would then be a profit upon the hosiery of 3s. or 4s. Now, would not the fact that a profit is taken upon the hosiery enable him to sell his cotton goods with a somewhat less margin of profit than he does just now?-It might.
3407. Besides, the case which you have put just now implies that the woman wants something which Mr. Sinclair has in his shop?- Yes.
3408. It does not allow at all for a case in which she wants something different and in order to get which she might perhaps have to part with the goods at a loss?-Viewing it in the light I have stated would perhaps be a disadvantage to the knitter; but there would certainly be an advantage to her, as she would have cash with which to go and buy groceries or other things wherever she wanted,
3409. Then that would be an advantage?-It would be an advantage; but another disadvantage to her might be, that the merchant would not take her goods at all unless he actually wanted them and he had orders for them, and unless they were of good quality. There would thus be only one advantage against two disadvantages.
3410. But if one merchant did not take her goods, another would, if they were worth buying at all?-Perhaps he might; but I was only speaking about how the thing might act if such a system were introduced. There might be a second advantage, in this way: that more encouragement might be given to the trade in the south, as the cash system might be a means of producing better articles. The knitters might be induced to bestow more pains on the manufacture of their goods and then there would not be periods when the market was in a dead, dull kind of state, as it sometimes is now.
3411. Is it ever in a dead, dull kind of state?-Yes, at certain seasons it is.
3412. Is there ever a time when you refuse to take Shetland goods?-Yes; at this very season we cannot buy veils at all, because we have no market for them. The market is blocked up entirely. But if the manufacture was improved, and the goods were somewhat [Page 77] better than they are now, there might be a regular flow of goods into the market.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.
3413. Is there anything further you wish to say?-With regard to Mr. Bruce's evidence as to the account with Smith, I think he is mistaken in saying that there is any entry of that meal in any of Smith's accounts. I remember only one case where Miss Sinclair got her meal from Smith, and I went myself, either that day or the following day, to him with the money. That is the only case I know of; and I am almost sure there is no such thing as meal supplied to her entered in any contra account of Mr. Smith, because we paid the meal in cash at once. I know of no other person being supplied by Mr. Smith except her. Another thing is with regard to the number of shawls that are dyed. Mr. Bruce does not seem to recollect that the number of shawls dyed bears a very small proportion to the number of shawls we sell. It is only a fraction of them that are dyed. I don't think there is one out of eighty which requires to be dyed for selling south. With regard to the valuation of the shawls, the fact is, that although sometimes it happens that we detect a fault in the goods when we are buying them, and make a deduction for that from the price, yet in the majority of cases the faults are only detected after the goods are bought, and no deduction for that can be made from the price which we pay to the knitters. In all such cases we have to dye them for nothing.
3414. Do you mean that the fault is detected after the shawls are bought from you?-Not after they are bought from us, but after we have bought them; and consequently we have to dye them. Then when they are dyed, they very often, indeed generally, do not bring more than they would have brought if they had been white; but that is such a trifling thing, that it is not worth speaking about.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, Mrs. ANN EUNSON, examined.
3415. You live in Lerwick?-Yes.
3416. You have come forward voluntarily to make a statement?- Yes.
3417. Nobody has sent you here?-No.
3418. Have you knitted for a long time to Mr. Linklater?-Yes, for a long time; I don't remember how long.
3419. What have you made?-Little hap-shawls.
3420. How have you been paid for them?-I have been well paid for them, according to what I sought.
3421. Did you get money or goods?-When I sought money I got it; but when I required anything which he had, I thought it was my duty to take it from him, and not from another. He always gave me a little money when I asked it.
3422. How much would you get at a time?-I might not ask above 6d. at a time, but I would get it.
3423. How much would you make in a week by knitting?-It was just as I had time to sit at it.
3424. Did you do a good deal at it?-Not a great deal I made a good many haps for myself when I could. I am a widow. I had seven children, who are all dead, and I have supported myself entirely by my work.
3425. Have you supported yourself entirely by knitting?-Yes. I had no other work, except that of going for peats, or anything else I had to do.
3426. Were these your own peats?-Yes.
3427. Therefore you had no other means except by knitting?-No; except that for some time back I have had 1s. a week from the parochial board.
3428. Before you got that, did you support yourself entirely by knitting?-Yes; only at times I have got some things from friends.
3429. Did you get your meal and provisions from the proceeds of your knitting?-Yes.
3430. How did you manage that, when you were paid mostly in goods?-Often, when I had a little time, I made small shawls for myself; and when travelling merchants came to town, they would take my shawls and sell them for me for a little money.
3431. Did you do that because it was not the custom to give money for such things at the merchants' shops?-It was not the usual thing always to give money at the merchants shops. If they had given it, I might not have given my shawls to these travelling merchants,
3432. If you had got money from the merchants shops, you would have been as ready to sell your shawls to them as to these strangers?-Yes; but I sold some haps to Mr. Linklater, and got much the same from him as I got from them.
3433., Only you got it in goods?-Yes; but if had sought a little money, I would have got it.
3434. What was the price of the hap-shawls which you made?-I have got as high as 3s. and 4s. for them. I don't make the fine knitting.
3435. Do you ever make hose or stockings?-Yes.
3436. What do you get for them?-I don't make many stockings; I think I am better paid by making these little haps.
3437. Do you take any lodgers?-I don't take any now. I am in the Widows' Asylum; but before I went there, I took one or two.
3438. Did these lodgers help you in your living?-Yes, a little.
3439. Then you would get money in that way with which to purchase provisions?-Yes; but I could not get so much knitting made when I had lodgers.
3440. But the money you got from them would help you to buy meal and bread, and what you wanted to live upon?-No; I did not have above 6d. a week from my lodgers, and sometimes it was 1s.; but I got through with it, and now it is come to a conclusion.
3441. How old are you?-I think I am about seventy-two.
3442. You are still knitting a little?-Yes; my fingers are as clever as can be yet.
3448. You don't get money for your knitting now?-I get money from Mr. Linklater when I ask it.
3444. How often do you ask it?-I don't like to trouble him too much, but I know that he would give me what I sought; and many a time I have got it. He often supplied me when I required it, and when I had nothing in his hands to get.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, JOHN JAMES BRUCE, recalled.
3445. I understand you wish to make some correction on your former evidence?-Yes; I find I made a mistake. On going back to the shop after giving my evidence, I found the same girl there whom I mentioned before, and I spoke to her about what I had said here. She said it was not a line that she had exchanged. She has an account in the book, and she had got a bonnet, and had given it to the other party. Of course it was to the same effect as if she had given a line. She had got goods from us, and had given them to another person for cash.
3446. Was all the rest of your statement correct?-Yes.
3447. Have you anything to say with regard to the proportion of goods which are re-dyed about which Mr. Sinclair made some explanation?-What I meant to say was, that all the goods not ticketed are re-valued, and that some of them are dyed,-these, of course, not being re-valued until they come back from the dyer. Only the finer qualities of goods are ticketed at the time they are taken from the customer.
[Page 78]
3448. So that the larger proportion of goods are, in point of fact, re-valued?-Yes. By being re-valued, I mean that they are judged of again in the same way that they were judged of, on being taken from the customer. I don't mean to say that a different price is put upon the article; it may be the same price.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.
3449. Is there anything you wish to add?-I may make one remark about that last point,-the valuation of the goods. Many years ago I had a partner, from which the firm took its name of Sinclair & Co. At that time we ticketed all the shawls that we bought, with the exception of the lower-priced ones. We found it a little inconvenient to be always doing that, and my partner and I, in order to test our own judgment with regard to these articles, entered the goods in a book at the ticketed value when we bought them. When we put them out to the dressing, of course the tickets were taken off; but when they came back, we re-valued them according to our own judgment, without any reference to the entries we had made in the book; and I can declare on my oath that we never varied one per cent. on the things-we knew their value so well. When I came to see that I could judge of the values so well, I did not ticket the lower qualities of goods-only those of the value of which there could be any doubt.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, MARGARET CLUNAS, examined.
3450. You are a native of Unst, and you have lived there until lately?-Yes.
3451. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.
3452. For whom did you knit in Unst?-For Mr. Thomas Jamieson.
3453. Is he a merchant and purchaser of hosiery?-Yes.
3454. Did you knit with wool supplied by him?-Yes; generally.
3455. You sometimes knitted with worsted of your own?-Yes.
3456. How were you paid for what you knitted with his worsted?-The veils were 1s. when made with Scotch worsted, and 10d. when made with Shetland worsted, and for shawls of twenty-four scores we were paid 9s. for knitting.
3457. What do you mean by twenty-four scores?-That was the size of the shawl.
3458. Did he pay you in money when you knitted for him in that way?-No.
3459. Did you ever get any money from him?-No, I never got it, because it was a thing he never gave, and we never asked for it.
3460. Were you content to take the value in goods?-Sometimes,and sometimes not.
3461. When were you not content to do that?-When I could not fall in with the things I was wanting.
3462. Was that often?-Not very often; but sometimes he was out of things I wanted.
3463. When you wanted anything which you could not fall in with in his shop, what did you do?-Sometimes he sent for it to us, and sometimes not; and we had then to take just what things were there.
3464. Did you live with your father?-Yes.
3465. He kept you in food, so that you did not require to buy any food for yourself?-Only sometimes in the summer time chiefly.
3466. Did you work out in the summer time?-Yes, for day's wages.
3467. Then you did not require to knit for your living, but only for your clothing?-Only for our clothing; but of course we could not have got food for our knitting from that man, even if we had required it. He would not have given it.
3468. How much would you make in the week in Unst by knitting?-Perhaps 3s. or 4s., according to what we did.
3469. That was his value in goods?-Yes.
3470. Were you paid in the same way when you knitted with your own worsted?-Yes, we were generally paid in the same way.
3471. What kind of goods did you get from Mr Jamieson?- Cotton and winceys.
3472. Did you get tea?-He would sometimes refuse to give above a quarter pound of tea on a 9s. shawl he did not like to give much tea.
3473. Why?-He called it a money article, and he would not give it.
3474. How long is it since you left Unst?-It is about two or three months since I left it first, but I have been home again for some time.
3475. Did you come to Lerwick to knit?-No, I came to be a servant.
3476. Are you not knitting here now?-Yes, I am knitting at present.
3477. Are you out of a place?-Yes.
3478. Do you deal in the same way here as you did in Unst, or is there any difference?-There is a woman in Lerwick that I knit to, and she gets money for our goods, and is thus able to pay us in money.
3479. Who is that?-Miss Hutchison, Burn's Lane.
3480. Does she always pay you in money?-Yes; or if she has any little thing, which she has got, we can get it.
3481. Are there other merchants in Unst besides Mr. Jamieson who buy hosiery?-Yes.
3482. Who are they?-Mr. Alexander Sandison, at Uyea Sound.
3483. Where is Mr. Jamieson's place?-At Westing.
3484. How did you happen to have wool of your own to knit with?-We generally bought it from people who had wool.
3485. You got it from the neighbours?-Yes.
3486. What did you pay for fine Shetland worsted?-We bought the wool, and we spun it for ourselves.
3487. Did you ever sell the worsted that you spun?-Yes.
3488. What did you get for it?-3d. a cut.
3489. Was that from Mr. Jamieson?-Yes; or from Mr. Sandison, or any of them.
3490. Was that paid to you in money?-No.
3491. Was it always paid in goods?-Yes, but we would have got more money articles for the worsted than we could get for knitting.
3492. They would have given you tea for worsted?-Yes.
3493. Would they not have given cash for it?-We never asked it; but I believe if we had asked it, we would have got it for worsted.
3494. Then you did not ask money for your worsted, simply because you wanted the goods?-Yes
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, Mrs. ANDRINA ANDERSON orNICHOLSON, examined.
3495. You live in Lerwick?-Yes, at the Docks, but we call it Lerwick.
3496. Your husband is alive?-Yes.
3497. Do you sometimes knit?-I don't knit so much at present as I was accustomed to do, on account of my husband being at home; and I don't require to do it.
3498. Have you heard a good deal of the evidence which has been given here?-Yes; I came here for that purpose, but not to speak. I wished to hear the evidence which was given, because I had heard so much said on both sides of the subject.
3499. In the evidence you have heard, is there much that you differ from and wish to correct?-As I have [Page 79] had a good deal of knowledge with regard to the hosiery business and about the payment in goods, I should like to say what I know about that, and what I think would be a better plan to take, so far as my experience goes.
3500. You have heard a description given of the system as it exists,-how hosiery is paid for in goods or in lines?-I have not only heard it, but I have had experience of it for a long time. The first shawl I knitted was in 1840, and since then almost all that I have done has been in the hosiery line, either knitting or dressing.
3501. Has all your work been paid for by goods in an account?- Almost the whole of it has been paid in that way, that is, what I have done in Lerwick; but I have done something for Miss Hutchison. I have also sent some goods south to Mr. John White, and been paid for them in money.
3502. But all that you have done for the merchants in Lerwick has been paid for to you in goods?-I think the whole of it.
3503. You are speaking now of all the shops in Lerwick?-I don't have any particular statement to make about one more than another, because I have dealt with three or four different shops.
3504. Are you speaking now of articles which you have knitted with your own wool, or with the wool which was given out to you by merchants?-I chiefly knitted an article and sold it; but I was in the way of dressing for a good many years, and, I saw then how the people complained about getting goods for their work. Their complaints on that subject were very frequent, and in some cases I thought they had great reason to complain.
3505. Why was that?-Because the goods were charged so much more in some cases than what they could have been got for in ready money. I may tell you what first opened my mind to that point. I required a good deal of money at one time. I could not get it in the way we were then doing, and I then adopted the plan of trying to dress for some of the hosiers, and getting money for it.
3506. How long ago was that?-I think it will be about sixteen years ago. Fourteen years past in July I went south and sold a Shetland shawl to Mr. Mackenzie, a Shetland warehouseman, in Princes Street, Edinburgh. He asked me what I wanted for the shawl, and I said 10s. He said he would give me 8s. I told him I could get 10s. in Lerwick for it, from the merchants there; and he said, 'But when I give you 8s., that is just as good to you as 10s. from them.' I had felt the truth of that, but I had never seen it properly before.
3507. Did he explain to you how 8s. in cash from him was equal to 10s. from the merchants in Lerwick?-He told me the profit was laid on the goods; and at that time, and before that time, I will declare it was.
3508. You mean that the goods were dearer in Lerwick than you could have bought them in the south?-Not only in the south, but dearer than we could have bought them in another shop in the town. We could have bought them cheaper in shops in Lerwick when we were not dealing in the hosiery business.
3509. Are there drapery shops now in Lerwick that do not deal in hosiery?-Yes.
3510. And is it the case that you can purchase the same goods at those shops at a lower price than you can at shops where the hosiery business is carried on?-Yes; I know that from experience, because I have the money in my hand, and I can go and purchase them cheaper elsewhere than I can do at some of these shops. I don't say at them all, but I know there are some of the drapery shops in Lerwick where they could be got cheaper. I will give a case of that. Last summer I had to buy a woollen shirt, and I went into a shop, and saw a piece that I thought would do. The merchant brought it down and said it was 1s. 8d. a yard. Another merchant had charged me 1s. 6d. for something of the same kind, and I told this merchant that the thing was too dear. He said, ' I will give it to you for 1s. 6d. a yard;' and I said, 'Well, I will give you 4s. 6d. for 31/4 yards of it;' and he gave it me. A day or two afterwards a woman came into my house and saw the goods, and said, 'That is the same as I have bought; what did you pay for that?'-I said I had paid money, because it is an understanding that some shops can give it for less with money than with hosiery. I told her I paid 4s. 6d. for 31/4 yards; and she then told me that she had paid 2s. of hosiery for a yard of it-6s. for 3, or, 6s. 6d. for 31/4 yards-just the quantity required.
3511. Have you any objection to give me the name of the woman and the names of the shops?-I could give the names, but I would prefer to do so privately. The stuff I bought is still in existence, and also what she bought, and they could be compared, to show that they are of the same quality. I did not do that with any intention of finding out the difference in prices; it just occurred accidentally, and I only give it as an instance, to prove that if we could get money for our hosiery goods it would be far better for us. I know that many a poor creature in Lerwick, if she could get money for her articles, even although she were to get less of it, could make more of it than she does now, by getting the money in her own hand, to be applied for any purpose she thought proper. I heard you ask one of the witnesses whether people would give them articles for less in money than in goods, and that was what made me think over it.
3512. Do you think they would be willing to do so?-I think so. I remember one time when Mr. Mackenzie-the same gentleman I have already mentioned-came down to Lerwick and stayed here for some time, and he gave money for the articles that were brought to him, but scarcely so much as his own customers in Lerwick will give you in goods; and that was the way he came to know that if he gave me 8s., he would pay me as well as some of those who paid me with 10s.
3513. Did you sell anything to him at that time?-I sold to him at the time I was south. I did not sell to him at Lerwick. I could not get in to see him there, because there were so many people who came with their work for the sake of getting money for it, although it was a less sum that he gave than the merchants here.
3514. How long ago was that?-It was when Mr. Harrison was dealing in the business. I think it will be about twenty-five years ago.
3515. Then the custom at that time was to deal in goods, as it is now?-Yes; and indeed the goods are rather a better price now than they were then. We could get scarcely any money articles at that time at all. I think that the articles are more reasonably priced now than they were at that time. I have seen us go into a shop then, and they would ask us what sort of goods we wanted for our knitting; and if they saw we wanted money article they would perhaps not take the goods at all.
3516. You say that you know many girls who would be much better off by being paid in money?-Yes, if what they tell me is true. They say that there are many purposes to which they would require to put money if they had it, but they cannot get it without doing something for it in some other way, as has been already explained. I have heard you put a question to some of them about their being compelled to sell their lines. I don't know any case of that kind, but I know that they have done that, or equivalent to it, by taking a piece of cotton out of the shops and selling it in order to serve the purpose they required the money for.
3517. I suppose some of them manage to live by taking in lodgers occasionally?-That is done only on very small scale in Lerwick.
3518. Do not people in the country sometimes come in and stay with them for a night or two?-Yes but it could scarcely be called a lodging-house as that is understood in the south.
3519. But people do come from the country for a night or two, and perhaps bring their own provisions with them?-There is very little of that can be done in Lerwick at present, because there have been so [Page 80] many people warned out of their farms in the country.
3520. Have you known many cases, within your own knowledge, of girls being in straits in consequence of that system of dealing?-Yes, I have had to supply them many a time with things. I bought some little things from a girl within the last week or two at a reduced price, which she took from me because I could give her the money. I did not require the article. I only bought it from her as a charity, and I would not have mentioned it unless you had asked me.
3521. Have you ever known of girls falling into evil courses in consequence of the want of money?-Perhaps if they had the inclination, they would have fallen into them any way. I think, on the whole, that if they had money, they would be able to save a good deal out of the expense for dress which they sometimes wear. They would then have their money, to do what they chose with it. Perhaps they might apply some of it for a religious purpose, or put it into a missionary box; or if they did not think of doing that, they might have an opportunity to put it into the savings bank, which Lerwick knitters have never yet had the pleasure doing.
3522. Is there no savings bank here?-There is a post-office savings bank; but I don't think there are many of the knitters who can get the blessing of putting cash into it for a rainy day, either to pay the doctor or anything else.
3523. You seem to think that the effect of the system is to lead them to spend more of their earnings on dress than they would otherwise do?-When I was young myself and unmarried, and when I was getting dresses instead of getting money articles for my work, I would not have thought much of putting a very expensive dress on; but when I got money I did not like to spend so much upon dress, because I prized the money so much more. I only judge others as I would judge myself; but I know that when I was paid only in goods for my knitting, I would be more ready to take an expensive dress than if I were to get money.
3524. I asked you a question just now which you did not answer quite distinctly: whether you had known of girls who were knitters falling into evil courses?-I cannot say about that.
3525. Do you think girls are led to fall into a bad way of living from the system which prevails here, and from being led by it to indulge more in dress than they ought to do, or from being in straits from want of food?-I cannot answer that question. I don't see why they should do that in consequence of the system; but what I mean is, that if they could get money for their goods, that would perhaps prevent them from spending all their earnings in dress, and expensive articles of that kind, and they would have something for other purposes which are as necessary, or more so.
3526. You said the prices differed at certain shops in town: would you give me an instance of that besides what you have mentioned? Suppose, for instance, that cotton is charged at 6d. a yard, is not that the common price for cotton that is given for hosiery?-Yes.
3527. Do you know whether that could be got cheaper at any other shop?-That particular thing does not vary so much just now as it used to do; but with regard to the dress pieces, and things of that kind, I know there are some shops that have a higher price marked on the articles than the other shops have on an article of the same appearance and, I think, of the same value.
3528. You know that from examining them in the shops?-I know it by going from shop to shop and purchasing the articles with money for myself.
3529. What is your husband's business?-He is a cooper.
3530. Have you bought Shetland worsted yourself?-I have.
3531. From merchants or from people?-Generally from country people.
3532. Do you always pay money for it?-Yes.
3533. Have you bought it from merchants too?-Yes.
3534. Do you always pay them money for it?-I have seen Mr. Sinclair sometimes supply me with some of it on work, although it was a money article and I felt obliged to him for it, because I sometimes could not get it from the country as well as he could.
3535. That was given you to work into things for yourself?-Yes.
3536. But the price was the same, in both cases?-Yes; of the Shetland worsted.
3537. And when you got it from the shop in that way, it was as a favour that you got it?-Yes.
3538. What would be the value of the Shetland worsted in a shawl that was worth 20s.?-I generally deal with Mr. John White in shawls that are worth more than that. I do not send many to him now.
3539. Do you get a high price for them from him?-No; I can get as much for them in Lerwick.
3540. What price do you get for these shawls?-From 28s. to 30s.; and I can go in with the same shawl to any of the shops in Lerwick and get the same price, only in goods. I don't say that Mr. White will give us any more for our shawls than the merchants here will give us in goods.
3541. Only you think that, if you get 30s. in cash from Mr. White, you could possibly buy what you want cheaper than you would get it from the merchants here in exchange for your hosiery?-Yes, that is what I mean to say.
3542. With regard to a shawl worth 30s., how much would you pay for the Shetland worsted that it is made of?-Perhaps about 9s. or 9s. 6d., or perhaps 8s. 6d. if I could buy it economically.
3543. About what quantity of worsted would there be in it?- About thirty-three cuts to that size of shawl.
3544. Would it be worth more than 8d. a cut?-No. Some people might charge more, but I generally get it for that.
3545. Then thirty-three cuts at 3d. a cut would be 8s. 3d. for the worsted?-Yes.
3546. How long would it take you to knit such a shawl?-It would take me a long time just now.
3547. Perhaps it is hardly possible to calculate how long it would take?-No.
3548. The worsted is the only expense you would have in making such a shawl?-Yes; I could dress it for myself.
3549. But if you did not, what would be the charge for dressing?- 6d.
3550. So that the payment for your labour on a shawl of that kind would be about 21s.?-Yes; but of course, if I was getting it knitted, I might get it done for about 12s. A knitter would make it for me for that sum if I were giving her the worsted.
3551. Have you ever dealt in that way giving out worsted to knitters, and getting shawls knitted for yourself?-Only on a very small scale. I knitted more to others when I was young.
3552. But you have given out some knitting to others?-Yes, perhaps part of a shawl; so that I calculate the whole cost would be about that.
3553. Therefore, if you were giving out a shawl to knit, it would cost you 8s. 9d. for the material and the dressing, and you would pay 12s. for the knitting-in all, 20s. 9d.; and you could sell it to Mr. White in cash for 9s. 3d. of profit?-I would not call it all profit, because sometimes I have a good deal to do before I can get the worsted wrought as good as I would like to put it into Mr. White's shawls, and then I have to lie out of my money until I can get a party to take it in. Besides, if I were putting it out to knitter, I would have to stand the risk of getting it done properly to my mind. There might be some faults in the shawl; and if there was anything of that kind, there must be an allowance made for that. I am not saying that I ever did that, I am only speaking of how it could be done.
3554. You are speaking of what you could do, and of what you know can be done, from your experience in giving out part of your own work?-Yes.
3555. Do you know anything about the stocking [Page 81] business-the cheaper and coarser kind of Shetland goods?-No; I have not much acquaintance with that. I may say, that while I think in Lerwick it would be far better for the people if they could get money for their work, yet the country people are not requiring the money quite so much, as they need the goods at any rate; but if, as a rule, a money system were once established, and the people were all to get money for the work, I think those who purchase the work would find the profit of it as well as those who have to sell it.
3556. Have you ever considered why this system of paying in goods is kept up?-Yes.
3557. What do you suppose to be the reason for it?-If I had had it in my power, I would perhaps have done the very same as the merchants have done, because they have got the good of it.
3558. How have they got the good of it?-Because I think they must have had a profit on it.
3559. On the hosiery?-Not so much on the hosiery as on the goods. Reason teaches me that there must be a profit somewhere, or else it would not have been carried on to such an extent.
3560. I suppose the present system of payment induces the people who sell hosiery to the merchants, to buy their goods from them rather than from another?-Certainly it does; because, when I go in with a shawl to a merchant, I consider that I have to take the whole value of that shawl out in goods.
3561. It makes the merchants sure of their customers?-Yes.
3562. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I may mention, that I think the system of paying half in money and half in goods would not do. One party was asked whether she would be pleased to take one half in money, and the rest of the payment in goods. That may be a good enough plan if it were established and carried on throughout the year; but I remember that at one time one-half the value of a shawl was given in groceries, and that plan died away. The merchants kept groceries at that time, for the sake of getting hosiery with which to supply their orders. The merchants who did so were Mr. Harrison and Mr. Laurenson. As the season of the year came round when they did not have orders for their shawls, then, if they bought shawls, they had to lay them past until the market opened again; and there were very few groceries given out, because I understood they had more profit on their drapery goods. By and by the system of giving groceries died out altogether.
3563. Was that because they had a less profit on them than on the drapery?-I understood so. I remember Mrs. Harrison, the party with whom Mr. Mackenzie lodged, telling me that as soon as the country people began to knit, we, the town's people, would suffer very much. I could not understand very well what she meant at that time, but afterwards, when the country people supplied the merchants with the goods which they required, then they saw that these people from the country only required drapery, and they could get their orders supplied from the country. That led the merchants to pay for the hosiery only in drapery goods, and the Lerwick people had to comply with the same rule. It was when the country people came in to do the knitting that the supply of groceries died away, because the merchants could get their orders so much cheaper from the country people. They did not require the groceries like the town's people, because knitting was not the only thing which they had for their living.
3564. Do you think the ready-money system would be better for the merchants than the present?-It would be better for those who have very little profit on the goods they sell, but it would not be so good for those merchants who take a great deal of profit.
3565. Are there any of the merchants who take very little profit on their goods?-There are some who have less than others.
3566. And you think they would profit by a cash system?-I think, on the whole, they would.
3567. They would have no bad debts?-No; and they would not issue so many lines or have so many clerks; and there are a great many ways in which I think it would be better for them.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, THOMAS NICHOLSON, examined.
3568. You are a draper and dealer in hosiery in Lerwick?-Yes, principally a draper. I don't do much in hosiery.
3569. You were formerly in the service of Robert Sinclair & Co.?-Yes.
3570. You have heard some of the evidence that has been given here?-Yes, some of it. I think Mrs. Nicholson and Mr. Johnstone are the only persons whose evidence I have heard throughout.
3571. Do you concur generally with what Mr. Johnstone said about the system of business here?-Yes. I also heard a good part of Mr. Laurenson's evidence, and I thought it gave a fair statement of the matter.
3572. Is there anything you wish to add with regard to the system of paying in goods?-I have nothing to add to what I believe has already been stated.
3573. Do you give lines?-Only a very few, when they are asked.
3574. Do you give them to people from whom you buy hosiery, or to those who knit for you?-Only to those from whom I buy hosiery. I don't give out any hosiery to knit at all.