3575. Is it understood in your trade, as well as in that of the other gentlemen who have been examined, that all purchases of hosiery are to be settled for in goods?-Yes, that is generally understood. It has always been the habit, and we have never got it altered yet.
3576. Do you think it would be expedient to have a change in that respect?-I believe it would, if it could only be got to work.
3577. What is the difficulty in the way of having another system?-We could not give so much in cash for the goods we buy.
3578. Do you think the people generally would not take cash?- Yes, I believe they would want goods. So far as I am concerned, they always take goods from me, and I have never heard them ask for cash. I deal both with country people and with people from Lerwick, and none of them ever asked me for it.
3579. Is it long since you left Mr. Sinclair's employment?-About two and a half years ago.
3580. There has been no important change made in the system of carrying on business either in your shop or in his during that time?-No.
3581. Do you do much in the coarser kinds of hosiery?-A little not a great deal. The stockings are generally done by the country people, and the finer work by the town's people.
3582. You buy the stockings from the country people?-Yes, I just exchange the one article for the other.
3583. You fix a nominal price at which you are to buy the stockings?-Yes; the price. I expect to get for them, as near as I can fix it.
3584. You don't expect to make a profit on them?-No; I would often be very thankful to get what I have paid for them.
3585. Then your profit is on the goods which you give in exchange?-Yes.
3586. Do you think you take a higher profit on your goods in consequence of accepting payment for them in hosiery rather than in cash?-No; the goods are all marked in plain figures. When I get cash I generally give off 21/2 or 33/4 cent.
3587. But don't you take a higher profit from all your customers because so much of your goods are paid for in hosiery?-No; if I did so, I would run the risk of losing my business; and in fact I would rather give up the hosiery altogether, because I don't think it [Page 82] pays very well, so much of it gets damaged, and the moths get into it.
3588. How long were you in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-For thirteen years.
3589. Were you acquainted both with the prices paid for hosiery goods and the prices obtained for them in the south?-Yes.
3590. Was more asked for them from the merchants in the south than was paid for them to the knitters in Lerwick?-No; we were always very thankful to get what we had given in goods for them.
3591. But if a cash price was paid for an article, was a higher price put upon it when it was sold south?-Yes; if we paid cash, we required a little more than we had paid. We could not have carried on the business without having a little profit on it.
3592. You do not give out any knitting at all?-Scarcely any. I think I have only two girls knitting for me at present.
3593. Do they get any part of their payment in cash?-Yes, whenever they ask it.
3594. But is it not the understanding that they shall be paid in goods?-Yes; it is generally understood that they shall get anything they want.
3595. How much are they in use to ask for in cash?-Probably a shilling now and then.
3596. Do they live by their knitting, or have they other means of support?-There is one party that does something for me who lives exclusively, or almost exclusively, by knitting; but almost all the girls have something else to do besides that.
3597. What is the name of the girl who lives almost exclusively by knitting?-I think one of them is Catherine Borthwick.
3598. Tea is one of the most common articles you give in exchange for the knitting?-Yes.
3599. Have you ever known of the goods you gave being exchanged for necessaries after you gave them?-No.
3600. Or of your lines being exchanged for necessaries or for cash?-I never knew of a case where that was done.
3601. Have you heard of such a thing being done?-I have heard of it; but I never knew of any of my lines, or any of the goods bought, from me, being exchanged.
3602. Are your lines generally brought back by the same parties to whom they were given out?-I think so; but I am not quite sure, because we just put on them 'Credit the bearer' so much.
3603. Have you a register of your lines?-Yes; I enter the number of the lines in a book.
3604. Was that a system which you adopted from Mr. Sinclair?-It was partly a system of my own. When I commenced on my own account, I adopted the system of keeping a check, the same as a bank chequebook.
3605. How many of these lines do you suppose you issue?-I don't do a great deal in that way. It is only for the accommodation of the parties that I give any at all. I would be quite prepared to settle with them at once if they liked.
3606. I suppose these lines are generally given for the balance upon a shawl, or anything that you buy?-Yes, for any little thing they are selling.
3607. Part of the price is taken in goods, and they take the balance in a line if they don't want the whole of it?-Yes; or perhaps a line may be taken for the whole of it, and they come and get tea and other articles as they want them.
3608. Is it generally long before they come back with these lines?-Some of them may be returned perhaps in a few days, and some of them in a few months. A country girl may keep a line beside her for perhaps a month or twelve months. I have known them keep them for three years, when I was in Mr. Sinclair's employment.
3609. Then the system of lines existed when you were with Mr. Sinclair?-Yes.
3610. But he had not a register of them at that time?-Not for all the lines: he had a check for them, but they were not all registered then.
3611. Are you aware of the fact that the knitters in Shetland are anxious to sell their goods to others than merchants, in order to get ready money for them?-I believe some of them are; but I never met with many who were anxious to sell their goods for cash.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ISABELLA SINCLAIR, recalled.
3612. Do you wish to add anything to your previous evidence?-I wish merely to say, that I have known cases where people have gone out with hosiery and sold it for money, and then come into our shop and bought what goods they required.
3613. Was that hosiery which had been offered to you before and was refused?-Yes.
3614. You had refused to buy it at the price they wanted?-Yes; at any price. I remember one case of that kind with regard to some half-stockings.
3615. When you refused to take them, the woman went and sold them elsewhere, and then came back to you with the money?- Yes.
3616. Was that long ago?-Yes, a good while ago. Of course there may have been other cases of that kind which I don't know about, but in that particular case the woman told me she had done it, I don't remember her name.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.
3617. Do you wish to add anything?-I should like to state something which struck me just now about a case where I saw lines given for money. It occurred in my own shop, and I believe it occurs oftener than we think; but there was one time when I detected it. A customer came into my shop and made some purchases, and at the same time another customer came in who I knew had got lines from the shop. The first person who was making the purchase was carrying through a cash transaction with me, and I expected to have been paid in money for it; but the other customer who had the lines took the other person aside and handed over the lines to her, and I was paid with them. I did not object to take the lines for their value, because the goods were charged at a fixed value for cash or line, but it certainly deprived me of the cash at that time.
3618. And it deprived you also of the profit which you would have had upon the goods that ought to have been given for the line?- Yes. I merely mention that as an instance in which cash was given for lines.
[Page 83]
Lerwick: Monday, January 8, 1872.
WILLIAM IRVINE, examined
3619. You are a partner of the firm of Hay & Co., merchants in Lerwick?-I am.
3620. You have been so for many years?-Yes.
3621. I presume you take a principal part in the management of the affairs of that firm?-I do.
3622. In consequence of hearing that this inquiry had been appointed to take place, you have prepared a written statement with regard to the system pursued in the fish-curing business in Shetland, which you now hand in?-Yes.
3623. It is a correct statement?-It is quite correct, to the best of my knowledge.
[The following statement was put in by the witness:-]
I have had many years' experience of Shetland business generally, and especially of the fish-curing trade. Most of the time I have been connected with my present partners, and we have curing stations and establishments at several parts of the islands. We also manage four estates in the country-two as factors for the proprietors, and two as lessees. For the first we only account for the rents collected, but for the other two we pay fixed tack-duties.
The tenants on one of the estates for which we act as factors are altogether free to fish where they choose, and to dispose of their farm produce as they think proper, and their rents are received in cash every year at Martinmas. The tenants on the other, which I believe is next the largest in Shetland, are also free (with the exception of the island of Whalsay, and Whalsay Skerries); and we seldom see them unless when they come to town to pay their rents. Some fish to one curer, and some to another, as they find convenient; and they are quite at liberty to dispose of all their produce, such as cattle, ponies, hosiery, and the like, where they can obtain the best prices. We are not liable to the proprietor for bad debts on this estate either, but the rents are generally well paid, and very few of the tenants are in arrears.
In Whalsay there is only one curing station, and we pay the proprietor a yearly rent for the stores, booths, kelp-shores, and other privileges; and receive fish, oil, and kelp from the tenants, for which we settle at the current prices of the country. We have a factor there, with assistants, who manages for us, and supplies fishing materials and other necessaries to the men and their families during the year; and I usually go there myself soon after Martinmas, to square up accounts, pay the balance due the fishermen, and collect rents from the tenants. We also pay large sums of money at all our other country stations. In 1870, when north settling, I paid the men at Whalsay, after deducting their advances, £1222; and I find from a state prepared by the factor, that of fish, oil, and herrings received there that year, amounting to £2529, 15s. 1d., we paid the men £1584, 12s. 9d. in cash. We have not yet made up a similar account for 1871; but when settling there lately, after retaining their advances, I paid them no less than £1374. There are very few debts in the books there, and the people are considered to be in good circumstances.
Of this estate I can speak with confidence, as the management is more immediately in my department. There are 430 tenants on the lands-nearly all fishermen and sailors. When we strike out of the arrear list those tenants who have not had the opportunity of paying their rents for last year,-two who are old and infirm, and another who retains his balance for alleged improvements,-the amount due for the three years it has been in our hands is only £57, 13s. 1d. None of the tenants have been warned or sold out.
Shetland fishermen have been represented as ignorant and uneducated. This is a great mistake. They are as intelligent, shrewd, and capable of attending to their own interest as any similar class of men in Scotland. Many of them have sailed in all quarters of the world. Newspapers are now circulated all over the islands; and the Aberdeen, Leith, and Clyde Shipping Companies' powerful steamers bring mails with great regularity twice a week in summer, and once a week in winter; and in consequence of the frequent communication, all sorts of farm produce have largely increased in price. I have seen eggs selling in the islands at 11/2d. for sixteen,-now the price is 10d. per dozen; butter 6d., now 1s. and 1s. 2d. per pound; fat cattle £3 each, now £6 to £7; ponies 40s., now £6 to £10.
In our dealings with fishermen, they are charged the same prices for goods that we sell at for ready money to the public. We employ a number of carpenters and other tradesmen here, all of whom receive their wages in cash every Saturday night.
The Burra Islands are one of the properties which we hold in tack. We have two curing stations in the islands for convenience of the fishermen, and factors on the spot to receive the fish as they are landed from the boats. The fishings are prosecuted on the coasts in small boats in spring and summer, but the best of the men are employed out of the islands, and the fishings are now very unimportant. These men who fish out of the islands are employed in smacks belonging to Hay & Co., and various other owners, and prosecute the fishing on the coasts of Faroe and elsewhere, from the end of March to the middle of August. Those who fish to us get the same as those who are employed by others. The tenants of these islands sell their cattle, ponies, hosiery, eggs, and all other produce (except the few fish caught on the coast), as they like, without let or hindrance. We have no shop in the islands, and the men employed by us get their supplies from our stores here and at Scalloway. Some years ago, after a time of bad crops and bad fishings, when we had to give them large quantities of meal for their support, and many of them were unable to pay rents, the islands were indebted the best part of £1000. We made an attempt at that time to get the young men to fish to us and assist their parents, and I think in two cases we imposed fines of 20s.; but it had a contrary effect to what we intended, and, so far as I remember, the money was given back. I do not mention that the men are confined to our stores. They can deal with any other curer or shopkeeper they choose, and all our fishermen over islands can do the same, and at settlement receive their season's earnings wholly in cash. I believe this is the general practice; and were it otherwise, there is the small-debt court, the sheriff court, and several lawyers here to help them to their rights.
On the other estate referred to of which we are lessees, the tenants who remain at home are nearly all employed in the ling fishing. Some go south sailing, and pay their rents in cash, and we never exercise any control over them; but as we pay the current price to the tenants who remain at home, we insist on getting their fish as a security for their rents, otherwise the improvident might squander their earnings, and in some bad years be unable to pay. We never interfere with any of the tenants' produce except fish, on this estate more than the others. They are left to dispose of it where they like.
We have other curing stations at different parts of the islands, and employ a number of men and boys [Page 84] from all quarters during the summer months, but after they settle, we have no transactions with them till another year comes round, when they return to our employment if they think they have been well served.
As already mentioned, we are engaged in the deep-sea cod fishing, and, like others, send vessels to fish at Faroe, Rockall, and Iceland. The crews are engaged on shares, and the fish are salted on board, and afterwards landed at the curing stations in a wet state. When ready for market, they are sold at the best price that can be obtained, and, after deducting expenses and other charges according to agreement, the proceeds are divided equally- one-half to the owners, and the other to the crew. Fishings of all kinds succeed best when the men are paid by shares. When they are secured on monthly wages, there is no inducement for exertion. The fishing season being short, the utmost activity is necessary; and when the weather is favourable, the men are often obliged to work day and night.
Shetland fishermen are not altogether dependent for their livelihood on the produce of the fishings. In most cases they have farms that can keep their families six to eight months, and with good crops many of them have no occasion to buy meal the year round. They cannot afford to use fresh beef, but, as a rule, most families can kill a pig; and on the whole, in ordinary seasons, I believe they have a much greater abundance of the necessaries of life than a great many people of their class in the kingdom. They are, without doubt, more independent and less under control than mechanics and others (who are obliged to work under a master a stated number of hours every day), and consequently are more happy and contented. We have no international societies in Shetland. Some of the dwelling-houses are not what they should be, but a great improvement has taken place in this respect since the timber-duty was repealed; and, for my own part, I would ten times rather live a year in a Shetland cottage, surrounded by pure air, than week in one of the slums of London or Glasgow.
Preparations for the ling fishing commence early in spring. The men form themselves into crews, and appoint the most experienced man as skipper. If they have no boat of their own, one must be hired, or a new one built; but the lines in most cases belong to themselves, and they always find curers ready to supply them with what they want, on condition that they receive their fish.
No curer would be safe to make these advances, without the men engaging to deliver their fish-a new boat alone costing about £20 without lines, The price of the summer fish is seldom fixed until the end of the season, when the fish are sold for the south-country markets.
Fishermen are quite safe with this arrangement. They know the competition between curers all over the islands is so keen, that they are secure to get the highest possible price that the markets can afford. Any curer that can offer a little advantage to the fishermen over the others is certain to get more boats the following year; and this is carried so far, that men with limited capital, in their endeavours to obtain a large share of the trade by giving credit and gratuities, in one way and another leave nothing to themselves, and in the end come to grief. I have known crews to be engaged at fixed prices before the commencement of the fishing but as markets improved towards the end of the season, we were obliged to throw the agreement aside and pay the same as others, in order not to lose the men's services the following year. When the fishing season is over and the fish prepared for market, south-country dealers contract for it at prices free on board; and with them again there is competition, so that curers seldom fail to get the full value of the article.
People in the south, who have to pay perhaps 4s. to 7s. 6d. for a fresh cod or ling, are surprised to hear that the poor Shetland fishermen only get 6d. to 9d.; and we have had a great deal of clever writing on this subject lately, without much common sense. The shipping price of ling in the past season has been £23,-rather higher than usual,-and fishermen have been paid 8s. per cwt. wet, or about 9d. per fish. Although it has been rather a good year for curers, the following statement will show that fortunes are not rapidly accumulated in the trade:-
21/4 cwt. wet fish, cured ready for market, weigh only 1 cwt.-21/4 cwt. @ 8s. £0 18 0 Add cost of salt, hire of vats, tubs, tarpaulins, and other curing materials; also wages to men and boys splitting, washing, and drying; and expense of flitting from beaches-weighing and storing usually reckoned. . . 0 3 0 £1 1 0
21s. per cwt., or £21 per ton, leaving 40s. to the curer, out of which he has to pay store rent, weighing, shipping, skippers' fees, gratuities to fishermen, and to meet loss by small and damaged fish, and of interest-the sales being made at three months in October, and the men settled with in November; and further, when the risk of sales is also taken into account, the sum left to remunerate the curer for his season's work is not very large.
One great drawback on a Shetland business is fishermen's bad debts, and our chief study is to limit the supplies when we know the men to be improvident; but it is quite impossible to keep men clear when the fishing proves unsuccessful. There is no difficulty, however, when dealing with careful men.
At various stations round the islands near the fishing grounds, where there are natural beaches, the men have small huts to live in during the fishing season, and the crews assemble there about the middle of May to commence operations. The merchants or fish-curers have the necessary curing materials on the spot, and factors, splitters, and beach boys attending to receive and cure the fish; and, while the fishing is carried on, the men go to their respective homes every Saturday, taking with them small and unmerchantable fish for the use of their families-returning to the stations, with provisions for the week, every Monday. They generally make two or three trips during the week, according to the state of the weather, and weigh and deliver over the catch when they land. Their families get supplies from the factor's shop as required; but the men have opportunities weekly of seeing their accounts and can limit these supplies if they choose.
The Whalsay fishermen deliver their fish in summer, and live at small holms to seaward of the main island near the fishing ground, and a large boat is employed to remove their fish to the beach at Simbister to be dried. The men are thus enabled to make more voyages to the haaf than by landing each time at the curing-beach.
As settling time approaches, our managers in the country prepare by sending for the men, and reading over to them individually their private accounts, comparing and making up pass-books, where any are kept, and giving copies of the accounts when desired; and when we come to settle, each man knows exactly the amount of his season's expenditure.
If a ready-money system were adopted, and payments made in cash for each landing, I believe it would scarcely be practicable to carry it out. Large sums of money would require to be kept at these stations,-men with some knowledge of figures and accounts to be always present,-and half the fishermen's time would be taken up with the settlements. The money would then be carried home to their families, and in many cases at the end of the season there would be little left to pay rent and provide necessaries for the winter months, when there are no fishings, and no work except at their own farms. Such a mode of dealing would otherwise injure the men, as curers with small means would be driven out of the trade, and in some measure competition prevented.
From twenty-five to thirty years ago I had several opportunities of seeing how the fishings were conducted Barra and South Uist. At that time the fishermen were all living in wretched hovels along the sea-coast, and the islands let for grazing cattle and in sheep farms. Very few of them were able to keep a cow, and they knew nothing of the luxuries of life, and could scarcely command a bare existence. Their chief living in winter [Page 85] and spring was potatoes not fit for pigs, and shell-fish, with any small fish they could catch in the bays. There were plenty of fish on the coast, but no middle-men with capital to encourage the men to work. In summer they prosecuted the fishing a little distance outside of the islands, where their buoys could be seen from the shore. Their boats were clumsy and unmanageable-some with sails and some without; and the lines were made by themselves out of hemp obtained on credit, and only lasted one year. They were set on the fishing ground at the commencement of the season, and seldom taken up to dry. Now, however, I understand large capital is embarked in the fishing trade in that quarter, and of late years it has been very prosperous, and the circumstances of the natives greatly improved.
In 1785 a Commissioner was sent by Government to inquire into the state of the fisheries in the Hebrides, and in his report to a committee of the House of Commons, on being asked 'whether he thought it would be benefit to the lower classes of people if any of the tacksmen or others were debarred by law from entering into a contract with these people for obtaining the pre-emption of their fish, etc., as specified in his report,' he answered, 'That, so far from thinking it would be a benefit to the people, he should think it would prove a material injury to them; for they have no other possible way of being supplied with the necessaries they want from distant markets but by the intervention of those persons who keep stores in the manner described in the report; neither have they in general any means of finding money to purchase boats and other necessary apparatus for fishing; and that, unless they were furnished by these storekeepers upon credit, very few of them could engage in the fisheries at all; and, in the present situation of that country, as they have no other possible way of paying the debts they thus contract but by the fish they catch, no person would furnish these upon credit unless they had the pre-emption of them: that it has been already stated in the report, that this kind of trade, though apparently very oppressive to the poor in all cases, affords but very little profit to the merchants; and that he knew several instances where the people who keep these stores, by acting in a disinterested manner, have contributed very essentially to promote the welfare of the country.'
Since that date the Shetland fisheries also have been largely extended by the introduction of capital and the opening of stores among the different islands, where the men can always obtain fishing materials and supplies for their families; but to the present day the answer still holds good: curers must have the pre-emption of the fish, as a security for payment.
In the evidence before the Truck Commission in Edinburgh lately, witnesses were examined who had little knowledge of Shetland business, and many of the statements were not only contrary to fact, but simply absurd. For instance, can any man of common sense imagine that a merchant would come to grief in consequence of not having enough of bad debts, and that if he could carry on until he had £2000 of bad debts, he would do a flourishing trade, 'because they keep it going in a circle, and it never gets worse?' That was one of the extraordinary statements made to the Commission. Is it not clear that if a dealer with small means emptied his shop of goods to people who could not pay for them, then, as soon as the bills he had granted for these goods fell due, he might shut it up?
As already mentioned, the Shetland fishing trade has been largely developed by increased capital of late years, but in all time past it has been conducted on the same principles, with few modifications, as at present, and will be so, I think, in all time coming. If the islands and their fishing banks could be removed to near London, where the fish might be sold fresh at high prices, the fishermen would be greatly benefited; but as this is impossible, we must all submit to the inevitable. It is true, Government may attempt to change the trade by Act of Parliament; but in that case they will either have to remove the entire fishing population to some other and better country, or keep them at home as paupers, by annual grants for food and clothing.
We are not engaged in the hosiery trade; but I know it to be the most troublesome business in the islands, being conducted chiefly by barter. I think it could not be carried on very well to any extent otherwise. We would be quite ready to embark in it and buy for cash, if we could make a commission; but I do not believe it would pay the expenses and servants' wages. Giving goods in exchange, hosiers can afford to allow a much higher price for the articles than we could for cash, and therefore very little of the trade would come our way if we took it up.
Besides the fishing trade, we have acted a long time as agents for ships engaged in the Greenland and Davis' Straits whale and seal fishing. These vessels call here to complete their crews in February and March; and when they return, the men are either landed at Lerwick, or some other point of the islands as they pass south. When they go out, the men are engaged at the shipping office, and receive a month's wages in advance, in presence of the shipping master, and the agents are reimbursed when they send the accounts to the owners. When the ships return and the men are landed, they disperse without a moment's delay (in most cases) to their several homes, and come back to Lerwick to settle for their wages and first payment of oil-money, individually, as it suits their own convenience; and in the same way, a second time, to receive the balance of their oil-money and sign the ship's release. This may be better understood from the following correspondence that took place the past year between Hay & Co. and one of the Peterhead shipowners, in respect to a notice said to be issued by the Board of Trade, headed 'Truck System in Lerwick:'-
'PETERHEAD, 16
* 'TRUCK SYSTEM IN LERWICK. 'It appears from the returns and documents received by the Registrar-General of Seamen, that the indulgence granted by the Board of Trade under their special regulations, M. 2884/1864, to the owners and masters of sealing and whaling vessels, in respect to seamen engaged at Orkney and Shetland, has in a great measure been abused, and the whole object of the regulations defeated by the agents employed by and representing the owners at Lerwick. The Board of Trade are informed that many of the Shetland seamen who should have been discharged before the Superintendent there, within a reasonable time after their being landed on the termination of a first or second voyage, remain undischarged and unpaid even into the currency of the succeeding year, and that some of the releases for 1870 still remain incomplete.
'It should be borne in mind that the exceptional regulations referred to were issued by the Board of Trade, with a view to the convenience of the owners and masters of this class of vessels, and the protection of the Shetland seamen; but as the latter intention seems to have been purposely frustrated, the Board of Trade direct you to inform the owners and masters of those vessels whose crews are engaged before you during the ensuing season, that unless they cause their agents to comply with the spirit as well as the letter of these regulations, and discharge the men within one month of their being landed, the Board will be necessitated either to render the regulations more stringent, or withdraw them altogether. If the latter alternative were adopted, the discharge of the Orkney and Shetland whaling crews would have to take place under the more rigid terms prescribed by the Merchant Shipping Act, 1854, which of all other vessels at ports in the United Kingdom.'
'CUSTOM HOUSE, PETERHEAD, '10
'SIR,-The foregoing is a copy of directions just received from the Board of Trade, dated 7th March, regarding the faulty way in which seamen are discharged from Peterhead whaling vessels at Lerwick; and I now beg to call your attention thereto, requesting that you would instruct your agent at Lerwick to attend to the previous instructions issued, which were circulated among the masters and agents when they were issued. 'W.R. BALFOUR. 'Mr. R. KIDD, Merchant.'
[Page 86]
'LERWICK, 27
'We are duly favoured with your's of 16th instant, enclosing a communication from the Board of Trade in reference to payment of wages to Shetlandmen on board of ships in the Greenland trade, and headed by the words, 'Truck in Lerwick,'-a cry raised by a stranger who has taken up his residence in Shetland, and is now endeavouring, by every means in his power, to make himself prominent both here and elsewhere.
'We utterly deny that we have ever 'purposely frustrated' the Board regulations in respect to the payment of these men; on the contrary, we have kept a clerk, whose time has been chiefly occupied in settling the wages in presence of the collector as they came to town one by one, according to their own convenience; and you know how far the commission we get from the ships can go towards his salary. Nobody can compel the men to come to town all at one time for their wages; and if the releases of 1870 are not yet completed, it is not our fault.
'Without attaching any blame to you, we consider the document referred to-if it is meant to apply to us-a gratuitous insult. The Greenland agency is no great object, and after this season we shall not put ourselves in a position to have it repeated.'
'PETERHEAD, 23
'I sent the document from the Board of Trade, in case you should not have received a copy. I am of opinion that the men will suffer more by this new order than the merchants, from the experience I have had here. Were I not to give some credit to some of our own men during the winter, their families would starve. I do not wonder you feel sore upon the subject of the report.'
'LERWICK, 27
'We have yours of 23d instant. With respect to advances, our people are differently circumstanced from yours. The married men have all farms in the country, and the young men live with their friends there, and we never see them from the time they settle the one year until they come to town to engage the next; so during the winter they neither ask, nor would we give them any supplies if they did, as in all probability they would offer their services first to agents who held no claim against them. Of the twenty men engaged for the 'Mazinthien,' not one was due us a shilling, and their month's wages was paid to them in cash at the shipping office at the time they signed articles; and any advances their families may get during their absence is given on their monthly notes, which are the only authority we have for making the deduction from their wages when they return.
'A great deal of absurdity has been written lately on this subject by well-meaning people, but who were entirely ignorant of the whole matter, and ready to believe whatever was told them, without taking the trouble to ascertain whether it was true or false.'
'LERWICK, 22
'Referring to your letter of 16th March, we now send you enclosed abstract account of payments to Shetlandmen on board vessels for which we have acted as agents during the past three seasons, 1869, 1870, and 1871, to show how far we have benefited by what the Board of Trade are pleased to call the 'Truck System in Lerwick.'
'We are almost inclined to suppose the document now referred to, received in your letter of the above date, was titled at Peterhead, as we can scarcely believe it would be issued from a public office in London before previous inquiry had been made on the subject.
'As to signing the releases at the Custom House, neither the owners nor agents of the ship can compel the men to come to Lerwick for their wages, otherwise than they find it convenient for themselves. It would save us much trouble if they would wait in town a few hours after the ship's arrival, and receive their wages all at once at the Custom House; or, when they happen to be landed at a distance from Lerwick, if they could arrange to meet together here for the purpose at the same time.
'While matters remain as at present, whether these releases are signed or not, we can only do as we have always done in time past: pay the men promptly when they call. The supplies mentioned in the account now enclosed consist mostly of meal given to the men's families to account of their half-pay notes, and on which the profits cannot pay cellar rents, and servants' wages receiving and delivering it; so that, beyond the 21/2 per cent. commission on the wages, we have no inducement to continue in the trade.'
The abstract account above referred to is given below.*
* ABSTRACT ACCOUNT of WAGES paid by HAY & CO.,Lerwick, to Shetlandmen belonging to Ships engaged in theGreenland and Davis' Straits Seal and Whale Fishery, during theyears 1869, 1870, and 1871:-
Name of Ship Men Amount of Supplies before Paid in Wages and Sailing, and to Cash Oil-Money family during the Man's Absence 1869 Labrador 20 £94 14 10 £4 3 9 £90 11 1 1869 Intrepid 28 355 0 21/2 71 19 51/2 283 0 9 1869 Alexander 21 272 19 8 31 14 11 241 4 9 Total 69 £722 14 81/2 £107 18 11/2 £614 16 7 1870 Labrador 21 £196 9 5 £7 18 0 £188 11 5 1870 Mazinthien16 226 18 0 49 7 1 177 10 11 1870 Eclipse 12 256 2 0 29 5 9 226 16 3 1870 Erik 30 562 0 6 66 17 41/2 495 3 11/2 Total 79 £1241 9 11 £153 8 21/2 £1088 1 1/2
1871 Labrador 25 £221 7 4 …… £221 7 4 1871 Erik 26 138 2 5 £ 8 15 3 £129 7 2 1871 Eclipse# 1871 Mazinthein# 1871 Erik to D. Straits# 51 £359 9 9 £8 15 3 £350 14 6 1869 69 £722 14 81/2 £107 18 11/2 £614 16 7 1870 79 £1241 9 11 £153 8 21/2 £1088 1 81/2 1871 51 £359 9 9 £ 8 15 3 £350 14 6 199 £2323 14 41/2 £270 1 7 £2053 12 9 1/2 Average per man for the three years £11 13 6 £1 7 2 £10 6 4
# Voyage not ended.
In conclusion, I have only to add, that Hay & Co. have given notice to their friends, the shipowners in Peterhead and Dundee, that they cannot continue any longer to act for them.
3624. You say in that statement that you manage four estates in the country: what are these estates?-There are two for which we act as factors-the estates of Lord Zetland, and Mr. Bruce of Simbister; and there are two of which we are lessees-the Burra islands, belonging to the Misses Scott of Scalloway, and the Gossaburgh estate, in Yell and Northmavine.
3625. You say that the tenants on the estate of Mr. Bruce of Simbister, with the exception of those on the island of Whalsay, and Whalsay Skerries, are free to fish for whom they like: what is the nature of the obligation under which the tenants in the island of Whalsay lie?-There is only one fish-curing establishment there, and the men could not conveniently fish out of the island. We have a place rented from the proprietor as a curing establishment, with booths and beaches, and all curing preparations made for receiving their fish; and it is an understood thing that the tenants are to deliver the fish to us at the current price of the country.
3626. That is not an obligation that enters into any written lease?-No; it is merely an understanding with the proprietor. We have no lease of the island.
3627. Is it a condition of the verbal tacks of the [Page 87] tenants, that they shall fish for you?-Yes; they are made to understand that they are to deliver their fish to us at the current price.
3628. That applies to the home fishing?-To the home fishing only. The Whalsay men are not engaged in any other fishing.
3629. They don't go to the Faroe fishing at all?-No.
3630. Is yours the only shop upon that island?-The only shop.
3631. Have you an establishment at the Out Skerries too?-Do you mean at the Skerries lying to the eastward, where the boats deliver their fish?
3632. Yes.-No, we have no establishment for supplying the people with goods; but we have beach boys and curing materials at the Skerries to the east of Whalsay.
3633. Is there not a firm who have an establishment there?-Yes, at Skerries; but that is a different Skerries, which lies farther out beyond where the lighthouse is. There is more than one curer there, but the Whalsay men don't deliver any of their fish at that place.
3634. It is at the Out Skerries where other firms have establishments-both shops and curing places?-Yes; but we have nothing there.
3635. Do the Whalsay people fish for these other firms at the Out Skerries?-No.
3636. Where do their fishermen come from?-From Lunnasting, Delting, Nesting, and other places.
3637. They are not inhabitants of the islands?-No.
3638. Then the establishment at Out Skerries is a temporary one?-No. I think one curer has an establishment there all the year round, and a factor; but the fishermen don't live there all the year round. They live in huts during the fishing, and go home to their families when the fishing is over.
3639. You say that some of the men fish to one curer and some to another, as they find convenient: in that statement do you refer to the Simbister estate, with the exception of Whalsay?-Yes, with the exception of Whalsay. It includes Whalsay also, so far as the cattle, ponies, hosiery, and other things are concerned. There is no restriction on them selling these where they like; it is simply the fish they take in the island that we expect to get.
3640. In Whalsay, are the fishermen expected to deal only in your store for their fishing materials and the supplies for their families?-That is quite optional. They can take their supplies from our store; and suppose they take most of them there, because it is more convenient for them than to go anywhere else.
3641. In point of fact they have no option, because there is no other shop in Whalsay?-There is not, but they can go to Lerwick, and they do go there sometimes. I think the note I have given in as to Burra answers that question.
3642. Is there any restriction on the establishment of other shops in Whalsay?-There is no means for any person opening a shop there. There is no shop, and no building, and no right to build in the island without the proprietor's liberty. There is only the one shop there.
3643. What is the population of the island?-I don't think the census of last year would show that, because it is mixed up with other parts of the parish.
3644. Have you any idea how many fishermen are employed by you in the island?-Yes, I can tell that. We have twenty-seven fully-manned boats, each with six men and boys. These are the fishermen; but there are tenants who are not fishermen, and fishermen who are not tenants.
3645. That would give a total of 162 fishermen employed by you, but some of them may be members of the same family?-Yes.
3646. Are there many tenants who are not fishermen?-Not very many.
3647. Have there been any applications for liberty to establish a new shop in the island of Whalsay?-No.
3648. You have never, in your capacity as factor for Mr. Bruce, received an application for ground for that purpose?-Never.
3649. Would you have any objection to grant such permission if it were asked?-Although I am acting as factor for Mr. Bruce, the granting or refusal of such an application would depend entirely upon the proprietor.
3650. I suppose you cannot tell whether he would refuse it or not?-I cannot tell. In fact we have the only curing establishment there. We have the beaches, and all the preparations for curing, and there could be no other establishment in Whalsay.
3651. I am not speaking of an establishment for fish-curing; but suppose a merchant wished to establish a shop there for the sale of provisions and soft goods, do you think he would meet with a refusal from Mr. Bruce?-I cannot answer that question.
3652. In Whalsay you are only factors for Mr. Bruce, not lessees of the island?-We are not lessees. I act as Mr. Bruce's factor.
3653. Yet, notwithstanding that, the islanders are bound to fish for any one to whom the proprietor lets the fish-curing establishment?-Yes; on the understanding with the curer, that he pays the same price as other curers in the country pay for the produce of the fishing.
3654. You pay rent to Mr. Bruce for your booths and curing establishment; and in consideration of that rent it is understood that the tenants are bound to deliver their fish to you?-Yes.
3655. Have the fishermen refused, in any cases within your experience, to fulfil that obligation? Have they smuggled their fish away, or endeavoured to evade that stipulation?-I understand that before we came to the island they smuggled a great part of their fish away to other curers, but, so far as I can learn, I don't think they smuggle any of them away now. I believe we have got the whole procedure.
3656. How long is it since you got the island?-I think it is five or six years ago.
3657. Who was the merchant before?-The proprietor received their fish himself.
3658. Suppose a fisherman were to bring his fish to Lerwick, or take them to Skerries or any other station, and sell them, would the result be, that he would have to leave his farm?-I cannot say what the result would be if he were to do so, because we have never been aware of any single case where a fisherman went past us with his fish.
3659. But if he did so, would you consider yourselves entitled to remove him?-No, not to remove him; but we would consider ourselves entitled to complain to Mr. Bruce.
3660. And he would remove him?-If he thought proper.
3661. You say that in 1870, after deducting advances, you paid the men in that island £1222: would the number of men fishing for you at that time be about the same that you have now?-I think there were 155 in 1870.
3662. That sum of £1222 was the amount of cash balances due to them and paid to them at the end of the year?-Yes; and which, when paid, left them entirely clear in our books.
3663. Was their rent paid in account with you?-These were the payments to the fishermen. The tenants would pay their rents to me as factor separately out of that sum.
3664. But in what form are your accounts made up?-My factory accounts are kept entirely free from our fishing accounts.
3665. The payment of rent there would be made at the same time when you went to settle with your fishermen?-Yes.
3666. I presume you gave them a separate receipt for their rents, and entered the payment in a separate factory book?-Yes.
3667. Is the form of accounting with the fishermen in Whalsay the same as you use in your dealings with your other fishermen?- Quite the same.
3668. Have they pass-books at the shop?-Some of them have pass-books, and some have not.
[Page 88]
3669. I suppose that in the name of each fisherman, there is an account in the books kept at the shop?-Every fisherman has a page for himself.
3670. In it all the goods furnished to him or to his family are entered on the one side?-Yes.
3671. Is there a credit side to the account?-Yes. When we settle with him, we give him credit for his share of the fishing.
3672. Is there a separate fishing-book?-There is a book kept by the fish factor, in which he enters the fish as he receives them.
3673. He is a separate man from the shopman?-Yes; he keeps a separate book, in which the green fish as they are received are entered in name of the company or crew.
3674. Is a bargain made with the fishermen at the beginning of the year?-Sometimes, but not often. Where there is no bargain made with them, the general understanding is, that the men get what supplies they require, and that they get also the current price of the season for their fish.
3675. That is the current price at the end of the season?-Yes.
3676. Are they entitled to one-half of the take?-Not in this case. They get the whole of their take. It is a different agreement altogether from that which obtains in the case of the smacks that prosecute the cod fishing at Faroe. In this case the boat and lines belong to the men themselves, and the whole of their catch belongs to them. At the end of the season their catch is added up and divided, and, after any company expenses are taken off, the rest is divided among the men.
3677. How are they valued?-The fish are weighed green and measured, and the weight is entered in the factor's book. They deliver to us twice or thrice a week, and at the end of the season the whole is added up and converted into money.
3678. How do you estimate the money value then?-Just according to the price of the fish for the year.
3679. But the price you pay is for cured fish?-No; the price of cured fish is what we obtain for them when we sell them ready for market.
3680. Then the price paid to the men is the price for green fish?- Yes; a different thing altogether.
3681. Do you pay the men according to the price of green fish at the end of the season?-Yes, a certain price per cwt.
3682. How much will a cwt. of green fish weigh when cured?-It is reckoned that 21/4 cwt. of green fish will make 1 cwt. of dry fish.
3683. Then, in fixing the price of green fish at the end of the season, the principal consideration is what the price of cured fish may be?-Yes, the price which cured fish bring in the market.
3684. You ascertain the price of cured fish, and calculate from that what price you are to allow to the fishermen for the green fish throughout the season?-Yes.
3685. Is the sale of cured fish going on during the autumn and winter, or are your sales generally later?-The sales are generally, made in the months of September and October. The bulk of the ling is sold in these months.
3686. Would it not be equally convenient to fix the price of the green fish about the time when your sales are made?-It is about that time that the price of the green fish is fixed, and we settle immediately afterwards.
3687. I understood your settlement was not made until later?-It is generally in November. In some cases we may settle in the beginning or December.
3688. But with some merchants the settling time is later, is it not?-They generally begin to settle about November, and I think they mostly all settle about November or December.
3689. I think some statements have been made to the effect that the settlement goes on as late in the year as February. I don't think those statements were made with reference to your firm, but rather had reference to others: do you know whether that is so?-I think we have settled with most of our fishermen now.
3690. But don't you know the practice of other firms?-It is sometimes not convenient to settle until further on in the season, and I think Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh has not settled yet. But there is a reason for that: he has been out of the country.
3691. In point of fact, is it not the usual practice that the settlement does not take place until January or February?-The settlements generally begin very soon after Martinmas, and continue until perhaps about the end of the year. In some cases they may as late as January or February.
3692. Is there any reason for that?-None; except that people cannot get all their work done at one time. They must take one district before another.
3693. Are your settlements later in some districts than they are at Whalsay?-In some districts they are later.
3694. They may be protracted up to the New Year?-Yes, frequently.
3695. Have you completed all your settlements now?-We have completed all our settlements, with the exception of Burra. We have not settled with the men there yet, but we shall commence to settle with them immediately.
3696. Are the fishermen consulted with regard to the fixing of the current price at the end of the season?-I think very seldom; but it is quite an easy matter to know that the merchant can afford to give after he has sold his fish, and every fish-curer is very anxious to give the highest possible price he can afford to the fisherman, for the sake of securing his services another year.
3697. But this rule cannot apply to Whalsay, because there the fishermen are bound to fish?-Yes; but we are bound to pay the fishermen there the same price as is paid by the other curers through the country. The curers very often pay a higher current price than they can afford, just from a desire to get the people's services in the following year.
3698. The fish-curers markets, I suppose, are over all the world?- Yes.
3699. Are they to a considerable extent in Spain?-Yes, for the cod. A great deal of the cod is sold there. The ling is sold in Leith, Glasgow, Ireland, and in London. There is not much of it goes to Spain.
3700. Is there any understanding among the fish-merchants in Shetland, after their sales have been made in September, as to what the current price is to be held to be?-That is scarcely necessary, because, when they have sold their dry fish, they know exactly how far they can go with their fishermen.
3701. Do you mean that each curer knows from his own sales?- Yes; each curer knows exactly. When we sold our fish this year at £23, we knew what we could pay our fishermen without losing money. We knew that we could not exceed 8s. per cwt.
3702. But, in point of fact, is there any communication between the Shetland fish-merchants on that subject?-It is quite possible that after the fish are sold, the fish-merchants may converse together on the subject if they happen to meet.
3703. Is a meeting held for the purpose of fixing the current price?-No.
3704. Has there ever been a practice of holding such meetings?- Not that I ever heard of.
3705. Is there any correspondence entered into between the fish-merchants for the purpose of ascertaining the average price?-I don't know that there is any correspondence entered into specially for that purpose; but it is quite possible that, when one curer is writing to another, the subject may be mentioned.
3706. Am I to understand you to say that there is no practice of meeting for the purpose of fixing the price, and that such a meeting never has been held, to your knowledge?-I cannot say what meetings have been held; but I am not aware of any meeting having ever been held for such a purpose. I have not attended any such meeting.
3707. Then is it quite correct to say, as you say [Page 89] here, that the price paid to the fishermen for their fish is the current price of the country?-Yes.
3708. Is it not rather the price which each fish-merchant estimates that he can afford to give?-The price which each fish-merchant pays makes the current price of the country; and, so far as I know, the price that the fish-curers in Shetland have got this year for dry fish has been £23 per. ton. They have all been sold at the same price to south-country merchants.
3709. You believe there has been no difference?-I don't think there has been any difference this year at all.
3710. But in one part of your statement you point out that the sum, left as remuneration to the curer for the season's work is not very large: does not that rather go to show that the fish-curer does not take into consideration so much the current price as the price which is actually paid to him for his fish?-It is the price that he receives for his fish which enables him to say exactly what price he can afford to pay to the fishermen. I think the curers this year have all been paid the same price for ling, and I believe it was considered a very high price.
3711. Is there generally much difference in the prices which different curers get?-Very seldom; sometimes 10s. or sometimes £1. If there is a great demand for fish, some merchants, by holding on later than others, may obtain an advance of that amount, and in that case they might give their fishermen a little more. Perhaps they do so, and get more of them to fish for them another year.
3712. But the fishermen who are bound to fish for a particular merchant don't get the benefit of such an increased price?-There are not very many fishermen bound to fish, so far as I know; only a few cases.
3713. To return to Whalsay: you say there are very few debts in the books there, and that the people are considered to be in good circumstances?-There are almost no debts due to Hay & Co. there.
3714. Therefore, in settling, there is universally a balance in favour of the fishermen?-Universally the balance is in favour of the fishermen, and sometimes they are pretty large balances.
3715. Can you speak to the prices at which goods are sold in the shop at Whalsay? Is it the market price in Lerwick?-We charge the Lerwick prices at Whalsay, with a small addition to cover the expenses of transit.
3716. What may be the percentage of that addition?-I cannot say; it varies. Perhaps it would be 21/2 per cent. additional. The men being free, we are desirous sell as low as possible, in order to secure their custom, because they are very near Lerwick, and they can perhaps supply themselves elsewhere.
3717. You say in your statement, 'The Shetland fishermen have been represented as ignorant and uneducated. This is a great mistake. They are as intelligent, shrewd, and capable of attending to their own interest as any similar class of men in Scotland.' I have no doubt that is quite true; but do you think they are equally independent in character with other Scotchmen?-So far as I am able to judge, they are.
3718. Don't you think they are a little shy about speaking out their minds to their employers?-I cannot say what they do with others, but they speak pretty freely to us.
3719. Do you think the Whalsay men would tell you if they desired to be released from the condition in their tack obliging them to fish for you, or that they would strike if they felt it to be an obnoxious condition?-The Whalsay men have told me repeatedly that they are far better off at present than they have ever been in time past. They are not in debt to the fish-curer, and their rents are well paid.
3720. I presume you would not allow them to get very deep into your debt at the shop?-We have never had occasion to restrict their advances very much. We could not allow them to get very deep; but, as yet, we have not had occasion to restrict their advances.
3721. Are the advances made to the fishermen during the course of the season generally made by way of supplying them with goods at the shop?-They can get any supplies they want at the shop, or money either if they require it, during the course of the season.
3722. If they want money, to whom do they apply for it?-To the fish factor there.
3723. What is about the extent of advances made to the fishermen in the course of the year?-It varies very much. Some of them, I suppose, have not 10s in the whole course of the year,-perhaps they go and deal with some other person; while others may have £5 or £6, or more.
3724. You say that some have not 10s. of advances: do you mean money advances?-They get any money they want.
3725. But how much cash is advanced during the year by your fish factor in Whalsay?-I have stated how much the produce came to, and how much we paid in money at the end of the year. [Exhibits statement.]
3726. That brings out the amount of cash advanced during the year to be about £362?-Yes.
3727. So that the amount of advances in goods or on account would come to about £920?-Yes; that was in 1870. I believe the proportion of money is greater for the past year, because we paid them a larger sum of money.
3728. Would the amount of goods taken this year be less or greater than in the previous year?-I think the goods would be less this year, because the men, having made a very good fishing in the previous year, had less occasion to take supplies from the shop; and therefore I think we would be giving them more money in the course of this year than we did formerly.
3729. You think the result of the good fishing in the previous year would be, that the men dealt less at your shop?-They had no occasion to take so large supplies.
3730. How were they supplied with meal and other necessaries?- They had better crops, and did not require them.
3731. I thought you said that was owing to the good fishing?-To the good fishing and the good crops.
3732. You don't mean to say that they came oftener to Lerwick for their provisions?-I cannot say how often they came to Lerwick. They are quite at liberty to come here when they please.
3733. But the fact that there was a good fishing would lessen the amount of dealing at the shop?-There was a good fishing and a good crop; they had got a large sum of money in the previous year, and many of them very likely had that money beside them, except what they had lodged in bank; and they could buy for ready money at the shop instead of entering it in the book
3734 Then one effect of a good fishing is, that the men buy at your shop for ready money rather than by running up an account?-Yes, frequently
3735. Do you know whether many of the fishermen in Whalsay and elsewhere have large deposits in savings banks or other banks?-I believe there are very large sums at their credit in the Union Bank, which has been established longest here.
3736. Of course you have no personal knowledge of that?-No; but if you had power to command a sight of the bank books, I believe the sum would astonish you.
3737. There is no savings bank here except the post office savings bank?-No.
3738. The Burra men are employed by you in the home fishing, and those of them who choose in the Faroe fishing?-Yes.
3739. But in Burra, as in Whalsay, the men are bound to fish for you in the home fishing?-The men are bound to deliver us their home fish. That fishing, however, is carried on now only to a very small extent. Most of the men in Burra are otherwise employed.
3740. How many boats have you engaged in the home fishing from Burra?-They vary. There are a few boats that fish in spring, and there are a few men [Page 90] who stop at home all summer, and fish then; so that at one time there are a good number, and at another time not half so many.
3741. Are these Burra men under an obligation which forms part of their verbal tack?-The men who stop at home are under an obligation, at least it is an understood thing that they are to deliver their fish to us.
3742. Is there any written obligation to that effect?-No; but in point of fact they could deliver them nowhere else, because we have the stations on the islands.
3743. Could they not deliver them for salting and curing in Scalloway?-Yes; but Scalloway is such great distance from the curing stations, that they are much better off as they are.
3744. Are there no curing stations at Scalloway?-There are; but Scalloway is such a great distance from Burra, that the men could not go there every time they came from the fishing.
3745. Is the island of Trondra in your hands?-Yes; it belongs to the Earl of Zetland.
3746. Have you a curing station there?-No.
3747. Do the Trondra people deliver their fish at Burra or Scalloway?-I don't know if there are any Trondra people fishing for us. They deliver at Scalloway any fish they get.
3748. There is no obligation upon them to fish for you?-No.
3749. And, in point of fact, you think they don't do it?-We get none of their fish at Burra. It is possible they may deliver some to our men at Scalloway.
3750. Was there an obligation signed by some of the Burra men some years ago, binding them to fish for you?-Some years ago, after a series of bad crops and bad fishings, the islands had got largely in our debt, and in order to get the sons to help the fathers to pay their rents, which we were bound to pay for them every year, we got them to sign an obligation.
3751. Was that about eight years ago?-I think it would be about that time. It was about the time when we were getting a renewal of the lease. However, that obligation was found to be unworkable and was laid aside, and has never been acted on.
3752. What were its terms?-I cannot recollect very well. The fishers at home were to be bound to deliver their fish to us.
3753. Some of the men did sign it?-Some of them did sign it; but some of them refused, and it was laid aside.
3754. Does the document exist?-Very likely it does. It is probably somewhere in the office, if it has not been destroyed; but immediately after it was signed it became quite a dead letter.
3755. Were not some of the men fined for delivering some of their fish elsewhere?-I have made a statement about that; but it was not for delivering their fish elsewhere.
3756. What men were so fined?-I think there were one or two of them; but I don't remember their names.
3757. Was Peter Smith one of them?-Very possibly.
3758. Do you remember whether the money was returned to him?-I think it was, so far as I remember. I think any fines that were imposed were returned.
3759. You found that the exaction of this fine did not tend to make the men more willing to deliver their fish to you?-The fines were not imposed for not delivering their fish. The object of the fines was to compel the sons to assist the fathers.
3760. But the fine was imposed upon the father?-Yes.
3761. Then the obligation we have been speaking of was an obligation binding not only the tenant, but also the members of his family?-Yes. So far as I know, none of the tenants delivered any of their fish to us except what we get at present. Any of the tenants who are fishing in small boats on the coast deliver all their fish to us still.
3762. Are you aware of fish being smuggled to Scalloway, and sold to dealers there?-I am not.
3763. If that were the case would you consider that you were entitled to remove the men from their holdings in Burra?-There are only a very few men who engage in the home fishing now. The best of the fishermen are engaged fishing for other people at Faroe.
3764. It is only when a man actually does engage in the home fishing that he is obliged to deliver his fish to you?-Yes.
3765. If he chooses not to remain at home, or not to employ himself in that fishing, there is no obligation upon him?-No. If he chooses to remain at home, and employ himself fishing in small boats on the coast, there is an obligation on him to deliver his fish to us, but on all the other people there is no obligation, and most of them fish to other people out of the island. I have mentioned in my statement, that of the men engaged in the Faroe fishing, I think only about one-fourth are employed by Hay & Co.
3766. There is no allegation that the men are bound to engage to you in the Faroe fishing, and you say there is no obligation upon them to sell their farm produce to you?-We never interfere with the farm produce.