3767. Are you aware of cases in Shetland-I don't speak of your own dealings alone, but of your own dealings and those of other merchants-in which tenants are held bound in any way to sell their farm produce, their cattle, or their ponies, to fish-curers who are factors or tacksmen?-I am not aware of any such cases. It may be the case, but not within my knowledge.
3768. Is there any system of a kind of mortgage of the cattle in security for debts at the shops of fish-merchants?-It is quite possible that if man wants an advance he may promise to sell the merchant or the factor, or whoever he is, a cow or other animal at a certain season of the year, in order to repay him that advance; but I don't know of any other mortgage of that kind in the country.
3769. The mortgage may not be very much worth in law; but have you known cases in which a fish-merchant, being the sole or principal creditor of fisherman dealing at his store had so mortgaged his cattle, and that it was marked as belonging to the fish-merchant?-It is quite possible that may be done some cases, but the landlord has a preference over such cattle, so that such a mortgage would be of no value. A man may give a promise to sell a cow two or three months hence, and on that promise get an advance of a few pounds of money; but it depends entirely on the man's promise whether the money is paid or not, because the landlord can step in, if the tenant is in debt to him, and take his animal.
3770. That is, if the tenant owes the landlord anything and has not enough to pay the landlord's claim?-Yes.
3771. You don't know of any particular case of that sort?-I could not mention any particular case.
3772. And you don't know of fish-merchants or tacksmen who are in the habit, to a large extent, of squaring their debts in that way?-No; we don't do it.
3773. The fishermen in Burra are supplied with goods at your shop in Scalloway?-The statement I have given in contains an answer to that question. They not confined to deal at our stores. They can deal with any other curer or shopkeeper they choose.
3774. But, in point of fact, they generally deal at your shop in Scalloway?-They generally deal there, and in Lerwick too, if they want anything. If they want money, they generally come here.
3775. The Burra men deal at your shop on credit, and there is a settlement with them once a year?-Yes; the same as with the others.
3776. Is the book there kept in the same way as at Whalsay?-In the same way.
3777. Is it kept in the same way as the books for your other customers in Scalloway?-In the same way. Their supplies are charged against them at the end of the year, and we bring the book in here and settle with them.
3778. Is there a separate book for the Burra men at [Page 91] the Scalloway shop?-We keep a separate book for the Burra men's accounts in Lerwick.
3779. For their shop accounts?-For their shop accounts; and the fish factor has a separate book, which he marks the fish he receives from the men.
3780. What is the purpose of keeping a separate book for the Burra men here?-There are a good many names, and it is to keep them apart from others. At the end of the season we may be settling with them when the other books are in use in the office.
3781. You settle with the Burra men at Lerwick, and not at Scalloway?-Yes.
3782. But the shopkeeper at Scalloway sends in his accounts here before you settle with them?-Yes. The men call there and see the state of their account when they like, and then we get in a list of their debts to the shop. There is nothing entered to their credit there, but a list of the advances they have got from the shopkeeper at Scalloway is sent here.
3783. Their credits are all kept here?-Yes.
3784. Are your other fishermen in that quarter settled with here or at Scalloway?-They are settled here, for the most part.
3785. In this statement you have not told us anything about the amount of balances generally paid to the Burra men?-I have not, because we have not settled with them this year yet. I daresay, by looking over the books, I could tell you what we paid them last year and the years before. At this moment we are due the Burra people extremely little, because all the men who have been fishing in the smacks during the summer have been settled with, and got their money; and for the people who stopped at home and fished here, after we deduct their rents, we have very little money to pay them.
3786. You charge the rent in the account against them at Burra?- Yes.
3787. You do so because you are the tacksmen yourselves?-Yes.
3788. Then, in general, does any money pass at all in settling with the Burra men?-Yes; there are considerable sums in some cases.
3789. In settling with those of them who are Faroe fishers do you deduct the rent in their accounts also?-When any of the tenants are fishing in our smacks, we deduct the rent from what they have to receive.
3790. Do those men who fish at Faroe get their supplies at the Scalloway shop the same as the others?-They get their supplies there or here, as they find convenient.
3791. Have they generally an account in both shops?-Generally they have, except where we have occasion to restrict their advances.
3792. But if a man has an account in both shops, might there not be some difficulty in restricting his advance?-In that case we close the account at Scalloway, and give the man what he requires here; and then we can restrict his advances if we see it to be necessary.
3793. Have you often found it necessary, after bad fishing seasons, to make considerable advances to men in the way of provisions?- Yes, we have found that necessary, because the men could get supplies from nowhere else, and we were obliged to give them meal and other things in order to keep their families alive.
3794. Are you speaking of Burra and Whalsay, or of all your fishing stations?-Most of the shops that we have in the country are obliged to give large advances in the case of bad seasons. Three years ago the crops were very bad; the people had not seed to sow their land with; and we brought in a pretty large quantity of seed-corn and potatoes, which we supplied to the people in Yell.
3795. That was on the Gossaburgh estate, of which you are tacksmen?-Yes; and they have since then paid it up in full.
3796. Do you act in the same way with fishermen are not bound to fish for you?-If they were under any engagement-if they signed an obligation to deliver their fish to us-then we would do so.
3797. Whether they were on an estate under your management or not?-Yes.
3798. Have you sometimes made such engagements with them?- Occasionally we have.
3799. Was that with individual men?-Yes, with individual men when they wanted advances.
3800. That is to say, at the end of the fishing season, when you found on settling up that there was a balance against a man, and that he continued to want further supplies from your shop, you would enter into an engagement with him to fish to you next year?-Yes.
3801. Would that engagement be a verbal one?-Sometimes written and sometimes verbal.
3802. In that case the advances would be in the form of goods supplied at your shops?-Both money and goods. We would give him money if he asked for it.
3803. But the bulk of the advances would be in goods?-No. Money would frequently be given when they wanted a special advance.
3804. In a case of that kind, are your shopkeepers instructed to make the advance to the men in either way?-If a man wants an advance of £1 or £2 we make it to him ourselves, and the people when they want goods, go to the shop for them.
3805. At what time are these advances generally made?-During the winter or the spring seasons, before the fishing begins again.
3806. And during the autumn, before the settlement for the years fishing has come round?-Yes. They frequently get money during the summer.
3807. I suppose the settlement with your men in Lerwick takes place in the office and not in the shop?-Yes, in the office.
3808. When the men get their payments in money, are they at liberty to go where they like to spend them?-Yes; they get the money in their hands, and go away from us with it.
3809. Whether they are Burra men or Whalsay men or strangers?-Yes. We settle with the Whalsay men at Whalsay; but all the money that we give at the settlements here, the men go away with it out of the office.
3810. Is the settlement with the Whalsay men made in the shop?- No; they are settled with at the manor-house at Simbister.
3811. Where is the settlement made at Gossaburgh?-The settlement with the Yell tenants is made at the house of West Sandwick.
3812. Have you shops in Yell?-None.
3813. The fishermen there, however, are bound to deliver their fish to you?-Some of the Yell fishermen deliver their fish in summer at Fetlar, and others again deliver them at Northmavine.
3814. What is the extent of the Gossaburgh estate?-I suppose the rental is about £400 or £500, and I think the number of tenants is about 120.
3815. Are the whole of these men bound to fish to you alone?- Not the men sailing out of the country. It is only the men remaining at home and fishing there during the summer who are bound to fish to us.
3816. Who is the proprietor of the Gossaburgh estate?-Mrs. Henderson Robertson.
3817. In speaking of the rental, you refer to the rent paid by Messrs. Hay & Co. as lessees, which is about £500 a year?-Yes; I think it is between £400 and £500.
3818. What will the average rental of the holdings be?-Perhaps from 30s. to £5 or £6. There is one party who pays £65 or £70, but he is not a fisherman.
3819. What is the gross rental paid to you from the estate?-It will be seen from the valuation roll. I could not tell the gross rental off-hand, because it is a peculiar tack. We pay a certain fixed sum for it, and then we pay all the burdens on the estate, and it varies somewhat. It is more in one year than in another.
3820. Are the tacks under which you hold Burra and Gossaburgh in writing?-Yes, they are both written tacks.
3821. Do these tacks contain any reference to your [Page 92] rights with regard to fishing?-The tacks state that we are at liberty to let the lands, remove the tenants, and take new tenants, and that we are to pay certain sums for the ground. I don't remember whether there is anything specially mentioned about the fishings. I think in the Burra tack there is something about them it gives us right to all the fishings in the island. I am not sure that the original proprietor had not a Crown charter which gave him a right to the whole fishings, including oyster fishings and others; and I think we have the whole of these rights.
3822. Perhaps you will show me these two tacks, so that I may make an excerpt of any clause relating to the fishings?-I will do so. There is no clause in either lease relating to the obligation of the tenants to deliver their fish to the tacksmen.
3823. You say in your statement 'We have other curing stations at different parts of the islands, and employ a number of men and boys from all quarters during the summer months:' that refers to the home fishing?-To the home fishing solely.
3824. There are curing stations at places quite separate from any of the four properties you have been speaking of?-Yes.
3825. Where are they?-We have a curing station at Dunrossness; we have another station at Fetlar; and we cure to some extent at Scalloway, and also at Lerwick.
3826. At all of these stations have you shops from which you supply the men?-We have a shop at Scalloway, and another here. We have a factor at Fetlar, who supplies the fishermen with what they require; and we have a man at Dunrossness, who keeps supplies there also.
3827. At Dunrossness have you ever come into conflict with Mr. Bruce's people with regard to the sale of goods or the purchase of fish?-I think not.
3828. Is it understood there that you are to purchase from people who are not upon his lands?-We purchase from people who are not upon his lands, that is, from the Simbister or any other tenants, who are quite free.
3829. But not from the Sumburgh tenants?-They never offer us any of their fish, and we never ask them. We never interfere with Mr. Bruce's fishings.
3830. Do you ever purchase from the Quendale tenants?-No, I think not.
3831. You say fishings of all kinds succeed best when the men are paid by shares. When they are secured in monthly wages, there is no inducement for exertion. That is with reference to the Faroe fishing?-Yes.
3832. Do you form that opinion from your experience of both systems?-Yes, because on some occasions we have had to pay wages to the men; but that has been very seldom.
3833. I think in another part of your statement you say that, when an agreement to pay monthly wages has been made, the men sometimes, if the price has been high, have repudiated their bargain, and asked to be paid according to the current price at the end of the season?-Yes.
3834. Has that happened often?-No; very seldom. The men generally prefer to go on shares. There have been one or two occasions when we had to guarantee them monthly wages in order to induce them to go out to the fishing, but at the same time, if their share of the fish exceeded that monthly wage, they got it.
3835. Is it your opinion that it would be a wholesome change if the men were paid by wages, or that it is better for both parties that things should remain as they are?-I don't think it would be a good change to pay them by wages.
3836. Would it not tend to form more provident and careful habits among the fishermen if they knew exactly how much they were to receive?-I think it would be very much against the fishings if such a system were adopted. The men would not get nearly so many fish, and they would not earn so much money, if they were paid by wages, as they do at present. Some of the men who are fishing at the haaf earn as much £15 or £20 as during the summer, and they would not get any one to pay them wages of that amount.
3837. How much would that be per month?-Perhaps about £5 per month. No one would engage them at that figure.
3838. In the home fishing the boats generally belong to the men?-I think, for the most part, they do.
3839. Is it a common practice for the fish-curer to advance the money for a boat, or to supply the boat to the men and receive payment from them by instalments?-It is generally the understanding, that if a crew get a new boat, they pay up for it in three years. In some cases they are able to pay up for it in one year when there is a good fishing. I may mention one case in Dunrossness, the year before last, where six mem came to us and wanted a boat and lines. We gave them the advance, fitted them out, and supplied their families during the season, and at the end of the season they had earned with that boat and lines £200. The agreement was, that they were to pay for the boat in one year if they could; and if not, they were to get credit for three years. They paid up for this boat and lines clear, and had money to get at the end of the season.
3840. When an arrangement of that sort is entered into, is a certain sum deducted from the men's earnings at the end of the year in respect of the boat?-There is an account kept for the boat. If they pay one-third share the first year, it is taken off as a whole, and not taken off each individual.
3841. They are jointly and severally liable for the price of the boat?-Yes; they have a company account. The boat is charged to that account; and when they settle, there are two-thirds carried down to the debit of each man, and the rest is paid up.
3842. Then, in every case of that kind, there is a boat account separate from the accounts of the individual members of the crew?-Yes.
3843. And if any of the men have gone away from the country, or have got deep in debt before the boat is paid up, the other members of the crew remain liable for the whole amount?-They are liable in point of law, but it is very seldom they pay anything beyond their own share.
3844. When that comes to be paid out of the share of a man who has an individual account, is his share of what remains due on the boat generally entered to his debit in his own account each year?- No, not separately. We keep an account against the boat and the crew, and we give them credit for the whole of their fish when we come to settle with them. Then we take off one-third the price of the boat, along with the cost of any other supplies they may have had in company, and divide the balance and enter it to each separate man's credit, leaving two-thirds of the price of the boat at the debit of the boat account.
3845. The balance that remains in favour of the men after that comes into their separate accounts?-Yes.
3846. So that the boat account has a priority in the settlement over the individual accounts of the men?-Yes.
3847. Where such a boat account exists, is it the case that the individual men are generally, or always, dealing at the shop of the merchant who advances the boat?-I cannot say. The men are at liberty to deal where they like. Getting an advance of a boat does not compel them to take their supplies from the same merchant.
3848. But is there any understanding or practice according to which the men do deal at the merchant's shop?-I cannot say. The men that we deal with are at liberty to take their supplies either from us or from any other shop in the country.
3849. Are your shopkeepers allowed to make any intimation to the men that they are expected to deal at your shop?-They are never told to do so, and they never do it, so far as I am aware.
3850. Would they be checked or reprimanded if they did it?-We never had occasion to reprimand them, because we never said a word about it ourselves. Our shopkeepers never did it by our orders, and I don't think they ever did it of their own accord.
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3851. In agreeing to open a boat account with men in that way, is any preference given to men who deal at your shops, or who undertake to deal there? Would you more readily agree to open an account with such men than with others who did not deal with you?-That is never taken into consideration at all.
3852. But when a boat account is opened, are they always expected to deliver their fish to you until it is paid off?-That is always part of the understanding, that they shall fish to us as long as they're due a balance on the boat.
3853. And when the balance is paid, then they are free?-Yes; they are at liberty to renew the agreement with us, or to go anywhere else they like.
3854. Do you find that, at the end of the period when the balance is paid off, the men are generally ready to continue to fish for you?-Sometimes they fish for us, and sometimes they shift and go to another curer.
3855. There is no general rule about that?-No.
3856. You say in your statement, that the men are quite safe with the arrangement to get the current price at the end of the season for their fish: 'They know the competition between curers all over the islands is so keen, that they are secured to get the highest possible, price that the markets can afford. Any curer that can offer a little advantage to the fishermen over the others is certain to get more boats the following year; and this is carried so far, that men with limited capital, in their endeavours to obtain a large share of the trade by giving credit and gratuities, in one way and another leave nothing to themselves, and the end come to grief:' is that a common thing in the islands?-It is not common, but it does happen occasionally.
3857. Has that any connection with a statement which was made in the evidence given in Edinburgh, about the necessity which a merchant was under, to have a large amount of bad debts in order to succeed in business?-I daresay it has.
3858. I suppose that refers to the same sort of dealers men with limited capital, who push their business by giving the fishermen an advantage in that way, and who were said to come to grief from having too few bad debts?-Yes.
3859. Do you suppose the gentleman who gave evidence to that effect, and which you have criticised in another part of your statement, was referring to the same cases that you are there referring to?-I am not referring to any particular case in that statement. It is only afterwards that I mention evidence. In this case, I say that a man with small capital who gives too large advances to the fishermen, which they cannot repay, is very likely to be unable to pay his own creditors.
3860. When you speak of him giving too large advance, do you mean in the shape of supplies of going out of his shop?-Yes; and giving too many gratuities to the fishermen, so that they have all the profit, and he has none.
3861. What do you mean by gratuities to fishermen?-Fees, and other inducements to fish, besides the regular current price.
3862. Is that both in the home and Faroe fishing?-Not in the Faroe fishing. I refer to the home fishing only.
3863. Then in the home fishing there is sometimes an arrangement to give fees to the fishermen in addition to the current price?- Yes. For instance, the skipper of a boat, being the most experienced man of the crew, generally gets a small fee; and there are other gratuities paid, which differ at different stations.
3864. These gratuities are given in order to secure the fish of a large number of fishermen?-Yes.
3865. Have you cases in your mind at present, which these gratuities, and the excessive advances in goods, have led to the failure of people entering into the trade for the first time?-In making this statement I had particular cases before my mind; but such do happen occasionally through the islands.
3866. You don't think the existence of such cases inconsistent with your denial of Mr. Walker's statement with regard to bad debts?-I have referred to his statement on that subject, simply for the purpose of pointing out the absurdity of it.
3867. Of course if you speak of the debts as being absolutely bad debts, the statement is absurd, as you point out but suppose that a man starting business in Shetland gets a number of fishermen into his debt to a certain amount, has he not a hold, over these fishermen, so as to compel them to deliver their fish to him in future?-He has no hold over them whatever for that purpose. He has just this hold over them that if he chooses, he can go into the court with them and prosecute them; but after they have fished to him for some time, and find that they can get no further supplies from him, they are very likely to go away and offer their services to some one else.
3868. But suppose that at the end of the season a merchant has 100 fishermen who are in debt to him to the extent of £2 or £3 or £4, and whom he can prosecute at once for recovery of that money, do you think the fishermen have no inducement to continue to deliver their fish to him, rather than allow him to prosecute?-It may induce some of them to do so, but some of them may be frightened and leave him, in case he were to prosecute them. We generally find that when a man gets into debt, to us, we never see him again.
3869. Do you mean in debt to that extent, or to larger extent?- When he gets into our debt to the extent of £6 or £8, he very soon leaves us, and we never see him again. In many cases they know very well that the prosecutor might have to pay the law expenses and would get no return.
3870. May that not arise from the fact that you deal more leniently with your debtors than other merchants?-I don't think we do. I think other merchants carry on their businesses on much the same principles as ourselves.
3871. Does it not strike you that the statement you are contradicting about the value of bad debts to a Shetland business, although it might be exaggerated in the terms which it is put, has nevertheless a certain amount of truth in it?-I know quite well, that if a man with small capital lays out that capital in buying goods to supply fishermen, and delivers these goods to the fishermen, and then has to pay for the goods and has nothing to pay them with, he must shut his shop and become bankrupt.
3872. But if he has sufficient money to carry on for a little,-or if he gets his bills renewed for a certain time, and manages to get the fishermen bound to him by the fact that they are in his debt, and by the fear of being prosecuted for that debt,-may he not have a very good season next year, and be able to get a large supply of fish, which he can sell at a profit, and so gradually make his way?- Fish are not like ready money. You may have a pretty large number of men fishing to you, but you cannot convert their fish into money until perhaps the end of twelve months. You only get your fish sold once a year, and you won't get any person in the south to give you goods on credit for twelve months. Besides, a fish-curer must always have a certain amount of debts standing in his books against fishermen, and stock which he cannot make available.
3873. Do you mean shop goods?-Yes, he must have shop goods, and he must have debts in his books to a pretty large amount before he can carry on extensively.
3874. I am assuming always that the man, although his capital may be limited, has a certain amount of capital which will carry him on for a couple of years?-Well, then the end would be sure to come.
3875. But he may manage to make a good business, and to carry it on successfully; if he gets a certain number of fishermen under an obligation to fish for him; or if he can induce them by offering premiums and gratuities to fish for him rather than for others,- can he not?-But in the meantime he is giving them supplies; and while they may have got into his debt to the extent of £5 or £6 each man this year, on the understanding [Page 94] that they are to fish to him next year and pay off their debt, yet when he comes to settle with him he may find that they have not only not paid up their old debt, but that there is something more added to it, as he has been giving them supplies all the time.
3876. But, in a case of that sort the fish-merchant will probably try to keep the supplies which he gives to his people down to as low a point as possible; and if the season has been a good one for agricultural produce, they may not require very extensive supplies in the second season?-Perhaps so; but generally men who have got into debt the first year, require supplies afterwards; and if you stop the supplies at any time after the fishing has begun, the man stops work, and when one man in a boat's crew stops work it throws the whole idle.
3877. Therefore you think the fact of men getting into your debt has no effect in securing their services as fishermen to you for the future?-No. It is a certain way of throwing away money, and getting rid of their services.
3878. Have you had any experience as to the mode of settling with men who go to the herring fishing?-Yes.
3879. Is your firm engaged in that fishery?-It has been quite a failure here for the last two or three years.
3880. What is the mode of dealing with the fishermen there? Is it the same system that is pursued at Wick?-The herring fishing here, for the most part, is carried on in the same small open boats as are used at the haaf. At Wick they have large boats for the purpose. Here each man has a certain number of nets of his own, and they use their own boats and nets.
3881. When is the bargain made about the division of the produce; or are the men engaged upon wages?-For the past few years the herring fishing here has been so trifling, that scarcely any person took the trouble to make a bargain with the men about it. If they caught any herrings and delivered them, they generally made a bargain for them about the time they commenced.
3882. Were they to get so much per cran?-Yes.
3883. Is that the same practice that is followed at Wick?-The same practice, I think. At Uyea Sound I think there were as many as sixty small boats that went to that fishing; but for the last two or three years they have not cured a single cran of herrings, so that the thing was not worth our attention.
3884. Are you aware what the general arrangement between the fishermen and the curer in the herring fishing is-I don't speak of Shetland alone, but at other places?-I understand the boats and nets at Wick and other places belong to the fishermen; but the men there are largely indebted to the fish-curers, who have to make large advances to them before they can carry on the fishing.
3885. But the bargain made at the beginning of the season is for a price per cran?-Yes.
3886. And that is due when?-It is not settled, believe, until the end of the fishing.
3887. But the price is fixed at the beginning?-Yes.
3888. Would not that be a more advantageous arrangement for all parties in the home fishing or in the Faroe fishing than that which at present exists?-I don't think the fishermen here would agree to it. We have on several occasions made an agreement with individuals of both descriptions of crews, at the beginning of the season, to give them a certain price for their fish; and if it happened, as it frequently does, that the price rose towards the end of the season, we had, when we came to settle with them, to pay them at the increased price.
3889. You have already mentioned that; but, assuming that the fishermen would agree to it,-and I have no doubt you could compel them to agree to it if there was a bargain to that effect,- would it not be a more reasonable and wholesome arrangement altogether for both parties?-We would certainly be willing to agree to it, and I think the other fish-curers would, and take their chance.
3890. In that case you would take your chance of rise or fall in the market?-Yes.
3891. And there would be none of the fishermen but what would have some idea, as the season went on, of how much his earnings would be?-So they would; but if our fishermen had made such an arrangement, and they came to know that other men were getting higher price from other curers at the end of the season, it would make our men dissatisfied, and we would have to throw our agreement aside. If we did not do that, our men would leave us, and not fish for us another year.
3892. Do you mean that that arrangement could not be entered into by any individual fish-curer unless there was a general arrangement to do so among the curers in the islands?-Yes; the whole of the curers would require to agree to it.
3893. But, would it not be more advantageous all parties, on the whole? I think you say that in your opinion it would be?-We would be very well pleased to have a fixed agreement at the beginning of the season, and very well pleased also to pay the men altogether in cash when we settled with them. In that way we would keep clear of bad debts.
3894. Would not such an arrangement obviate the objection you have to a change on the ground that the fisherman's exertions would be less if he had no inducement to work,-because, if that arrangement were carried out, the fisherman would be induced to use all his exertions in order to get as large a take of fish as possible?-He has the same inducement now.
3895. That is so; but at present he does not know until the end of the season how much he is to get for his fishing during the year?- They are generally satisfied that they will get the full value of the article.
3896. But the policy of the Legislature in some other departments seems to be, that the working man shall know week by week how much his earnings are, and how much he is spending upon goods: could not that be done here?-No; it is impossible here, because one week, or one fortnight, or perhaps three weeks, may elapse in the summer when a man does not earn one sixpence.
3897. But if there was some system of paying fixed price of so much per cran or so much per cwt. for fish delivered, the fisherman would be able to calculate more nearly what his income was going to be during the year than he is now, and be able to regulate his expenditure accordingly?-The price of fish has varied very little for many years, and a fisherman can know pretty nearly what he is earning. The following is a statement of the prices that have been paid for the last six years; from which you will see that the variation has been extremely small.
PRICES of Fresh Fish paid at Burra, compared with the Rates paid at other Stations in Shetland, for six years, 1865 to 1870 inclusive.
YEAR BURRA ISLANDS OTHER PLACES Spring Summer Summer Ling Cod Ling Cod Ling Cod s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. 1865 7 0 7 0 7 0 7 0 7 6 6 6 1866 8 0 7 6 8 0 7 6 8 6 7 6 1867 6 0 7 0 6 0 6 0 6 0 6 0 1868 6 0 6 6 6 6 5 0 6 6 5 0 1869 7 0 6 6 7 0 6 6 7 0 6 6 1870 7 0 6 6 7 3 6 0 7 3 6 0
3898. Then, upon the whole of that matter we have been speaking of, you don't think the introduction of a system similar to that which prevails in the Wick herring fishing would be beneficial either to the one side or the other, although you would be willing to adopt it?-We would be quite ready to adopt it.
[Page 95]
3899. But, as a matter of opinion, you don't think it would be advantageous?-As far as my own opinion goes, I do not think it would be in any way advantageous either to the fish-curers or to the fishermen.
3900. You have a few sentences in your statement with regard to the hosiery trade, in which you say you don't believe it would pay the expenses and servants wages: is that your opinion?-Yes; if we were to buy for ready money.
3901. What is your reason for forming that opinion?-The people get so much higher prices for their articles when they take goods, that we could not buy for ready money and compete with the people in the trade.
3902. Do you deal in the same goods as those merchants who deal in hosiery?-Yes, to a certain extent, but not to such a large extent as them. They keep goods for the purpose of exchanging for hosiery, while we only keep some for supplying the fishermen.
3903. Are you in a position to say whether your prices for tea and soft goods are higher or lower than the prices of the persons who purchase hosiery?-I think tea and groceries and other things, sell for very much the same all over town.
3904. Is it the same thing with soft goods and cotton?-Yes, I think they are very much the same.
3905. If hosiery were paid for in cash, do you not think the people might come to your shop and buy goods to greater advantage than they get them for at present?-I suppose they would go to any place in town where they got the goods best and cheapest. I have said in my statement, we would be quite ready to buy the hosiery ourselves for cash; but I believe we would get a very small portion of the trade, because, when the people were getting perhaps 1s. in cotton or in other things for an article, we could not afford to give them any more than 9d. or 10d. in cash, and therefore they would not come to us.
3906. But suppose they were to get 9d. or 10d. in cash, would they not be able to buy their cotton goods to greater advantage?-I don't think it. They could not go to the hosiers' shops and buy cotton goods marked at 1s. for anything less than that. They might perhaps get a small discount, but it would be very little.
3907. Does it not appear to you that the practice of paying in kind must raise the prices of the goods that are so given in exchange for hosiery?-There are a great many people both here and throughout the country engaged in the trade; and when the girls have articles to sell, I suppose they find out the shops where they can make the best bargain, and go there, so that there is competition amongst the hosiery merchants as well as in other trades.
3908. Do you think it is the case that the profit charged upon drapery goods in Lerwick is greater than it is in other places, in consequence of the practice of purchasing hosiery with goods?-I am unable to give an opinion upon that, because I cannot say what are the profits upon goods elsewhere; but I believe the difference between our prices and the prices charged by the hosiers for the same class of goods would be found to be very little if it was examined into.
3909. You are not aware that you sell cheaper, than the merchants who purchase hosiery?-I don't think we sell very much cheaper than they do.
3910. Do you think you sell any cheaper?-Not very much.
3911. Did the obligation which was entered into eight years ago by the Burra men refer to the home fishing only, or was there any obligation in it with regard to the Faroe fishing too?-I think it referred to the home fishing chiefly.
3912. And not to the Faroe fishing?-It speaks for itself.
3913. Can you show it to me?-I think I can. I have not seen it for several years, but it must be somewhere in the office. If I can get it, I will be ready to show it.
3914. Is it not the case that the supply of men for the Faroe fishing is now generally sufficient without any such obligation, and that sometimes there is an excess in the supply of men who are willing to go to that fishing?-No; on the contrary, the men are very scarce and it is difficult to get the smacks manned up. I question very much whether we shall be able to get them all manned up this year.
3915. What is the cause of their reluctance to go to that fishing?- They made a bad fishing last year, and they are very unwilling to go again.
3916. Did the liberty money or fines which were imposed in Burra apply at all to tenants refusing to go to the Faroe fishing?-I think not. These fines were imposed with the view of getting the sons to assist their parents who were in debt, and to enable them to pay their rents, by making their earnings come through our hands. When the people went elsewhere, their earnings did not come through our hands, and we had not that check upon them.
3917. Are you quite certain the fines had nothing to do with the Faroe fishing at all?-It is many years since that I can scarcely say, and the Faroe fishing has not been carried on for many years. Perhaps that attempt was made by us about the time when the Faroe fishing commenced; but it was with the view of keeping the sons at home, and to enable their fathers to remain in the islands and to pay their rents, because the sons usually went away in summer, and remained a burden on their parents during the winter.
3918. Do you remember whether at any time there was a proposal on the part of the Burra islanders to rent the island from the landlord directly?-I heard there was such a proposal.
3919. In what form was the proposal made?-It never came through my hands; but I understand the men wrote to Mr. Mack, in Edinburgh, who acted for the proprietors, offering him a higher rent than we had paid before.
3920. How long ago was that?-I could not condescend on the number of years. It was about the time that our tack was out.
3921. That would be about the time when the obligation you spoke of was suggested or entered into?-I think it was perhaps about the same time.
3922. That offer was refused?-Yes. Mr. Mack knew very well, that while some of the tenants would pay their rent punctually, others, when left to themselves, would have nothing to pay it with when the rent time came round, and of course he would not treat with them. He thought it better to get a fixed sum, payable half-yearly, which the tenants could not guarantee him. The rent of Burra is paid by us half-yearly, one half at Whitsunday and the other half at Martinmas; while the tenants, of course, if they were left at liberty, would only pay once a year.
3923. Is it the usual practice in Shetland to pay rent only once a year?-Yes; to pay it at Martinmas,
3924. That arises from the fact that the tenants generally depend upon the produce of their fishing for the money with which to pay their rent?-Yes; they realize their earnings about that time.
3925. Is it the case that the inducement to your firm to lease Burra in the way you have explained, was mainly for securing to yourselves the service of the fishermen?-We had had a lease of Burra for a very long time, and had transactions with the people all along, and they were due us a very considerable sum. They are not due us so much now, but at that time they were due us a very heavy sum; and if we had given up the tack, much of that money would have been lost. That was one inducement to us to renew our lease.
3926. But did you expect to recoup yourselves merely by the rent payable by the fishermen, or by their being obliged to fish for you?-By their being able to pay their debts through the fishing.
3927. In other words, they would not have been so likely to have continued to fish for you if you had not remained the tacksmen?- If we had not remained the tacksmen, the island would have been let on tack to some one else, and they would have taken our place.
3928. Do you mean that a lease would probably have [Page 96] been given to some other fish-merchant?-Yes; there is no inducement to any one else to take a tack of Burra.
3929. Is that because it is the general practice in Shetland for the landlord or the tacksman to be entitled to receive the fish?-No; but the tack-duty of Burra is so near the gross rental, that there would be no inducement to a person to take the island on tack, and to collect the rents and pay them over to the proprietor.
3930. You say that very few people in Burra engage in the home fishing now?-Yes; comparatively few.
3931. So that the Burra islands cannot be so profitable an investment for your firm as formerly?-It is not.
3932. Does the gross rental from it exceed the tack-duty by any considerable sum?-No; only by a very small sum.
3933. How much?-Unless I had the rental here, I could not speak definitely; but I could show you the gross rental of Burra, and I can tell you the tack-duty afterwards.
3934. Can you do the same with regard to Gossaburgh?-Yes.
3935. Is there any practice in the home fishing of selling the smaller fish without passing them through the books; that is, the small fish caught near the shore at Scalloway, or elsewhere on the coast?-There are haddocks and small fish caught there; and through the winter the men just take them into Scalloway every day as they catch them, and sell them for goods or money as they choose.
3936. These transactions don't pass through your books?-No; we don't see what fish of that kind have been purchased, except from the factor's book at the end of the year. We then see how much fish he has purchased from all quarters.
3937. The factor purchases these fish, and pays for them in such goods as the men may want at the time?-Yes; on the spot.
3938. These are separate transactions, and are settled at once?- Yes.
3939. In that case, is the price for the fish higher or lower than in any of your other dealings with the fishermen?-I think that, within the last few years it has generally been less, where they settled at once, than it came to be at the end of the season, when we came to arrange the men's accounts.
3940. How does that happen?-Because generally at the end of the season the price comes up, and people buying fish on chance are not inclined to give the same price for them which they would give at the end of the season, when they know what they are worth. If we buy fish from the men just now, we cannot tell what they will realize in summer, when they are dry and sent to market.
3941. Then, if the fish-merchant were to pay for all his fish as they were delivered, would that have a tendency to make him more cautious about giving a high price to his fishermen?-I think it would.
3942. Do you think that men curing their own fish would be at a great disadvantage as compared with large curers?-I think they would, because they have no means for curing.
3943. You are aware, I suppose, that that is one of the statements made by the fishermen, when they come forward with complaints about the existing system: that they want to have liberty to cure their own fish, and dispose of them in the market as they please?- I have heard so. For some time, in Dunrossness, the men did cure their own fish, but they never could make them in a marketable state. They were always objectionable, and they never could bring so high a price in the market as fish prepared by regular curers. If each boat's crew were to cure their own fish, they would be at a great disadvantage, because they have not the means of curing them properly: they have no vats, no covers, no mats, and no qualified curers for the purpose. They would likely employ children for that purpose, and members of their own family.
3944. When the men cure their own fish, how is that generally done?-I suppose they cure them in turns, and turn them out on the beach until they are dried. They are often very insufficiently salted, or over-salted; and when they are dry, they are not fit for the market.
3945. In your operations you have a complete apparatus for the purpose?-Yes; and we require qualified men-people who understand the process of curing-to attend to them.
3946. Therefore, in your opinion, a fisherman curing his own fish would realize a much less price for them than you could give him?-Yes; and very often they would be altogether in an unmerchantable state.
3947. You are still factor on the Simbister estate?-Yes.
3948. Part of that estate, in the neighbourhood of Channerwick, was at one time let to Robert Mouat?-Yes.
3949. I believe he had right under his lease to receive delivery of all the fish caught by the tenants?-No. The lease expressly states, that if the fishermen deliver their fish to him, he is bound to pay them the current price of the country. The expression is, 'If the fishermen deliver them;' that is all that is said about it.
3950. Is the lease in your hands?-Yes.
3951. You will show it to me, in order that I may take an excerpt of that clause?-Yes.
3952. Do you remember the case of a John Leask, a fisherman at Channerwick, whom Mouat had threatened to turn out of his farm, and who came to you some time about March 1870 in consequence of that threat?-I don't remember that. I don't know the man; but it is possible he may have come to me. There were two or three of them who come to me complaining about their treatment by Mouat. I showed them the clause in the tack, and told them that if they fished to him he was bound to pay them the current price of the country, but that I saw nothing in the tack to compel them to deliver their fish to him.
3953. Were you aware that for many years previously the tenants in that district had been under the idea that they were bound to fish for the tacksman?-I had no concern with it before I got the factorship, three years ago. It is only three years since I was appointed factor.
3954. Who was your predecessor?-Mr. Bruce generally settled with the tenants himself, or Mr. Spence.
3955. Is it consistent with your own knowledge that there was such an understanding upon that part of the Simbister estate?-The men told me that Mouat insisted on getting their fish; that is all I know about it.
3956. You don't know of it yourself, except from these applications which were made to you by the men?-No; I had nothing to do with Mouat or his tack previously.
3957. Did you communicate with Mouat in consequence of the statements the fishermen made to you?-I don't remember that I communicated with him in writing, but I may have told him that the men were complaining about being forced to fish to him.
3958. Did you also tell him that he was not entitled to require them to fish to him?-It is quite possible I told him that, but I had very few conversations with him on the subject.
3959. If there was such an understanding among the men, I suppose it would be naturally enough accounted for by the fact that in former times such obligations were usual or universal in Shetland?-Perhaps it would be.
3960. I presume such obligations were universal formerly?-I think that formerly more of the proprietors cured their own fish than is the case now.
3961. But in the old times it was part of the tenant's duty to deliver his fish to his landlord?-Yes.
3962. And I fancy, that although you say fishermen are generally free, yet any complaints that are made about them being bound arise from the remains of that old system still prevailing?- Perhaps so.
3963. There is no doubt that there was such an understanding and such an obligation formerly?-No.
3964. And in one or two cases there is such an obligation still?- Yes; but I think there are very few of the proprietors now who have any personal concern [Page 97] with their fishings. I think there are only two or three of them.
3965. Is Mr Bruce of Sumburgh one of the parties to whom you refer?-Yes.
3966. Does he purchase fish from the tenants on his estate?-He purchases fish over all. I suppose the free men can come to him and offer their fish as well as his own tenants.
3967. Does any other proprietor in Shetland deal in fish in the same way?-I think Mr. Grierson takes some part of his tenants' fish, but only a part.
3968. Are there any others?-I think in Unst, although the proprietors are not actually fish-curers, yet their tenants fish to parties whom they appoint.,
3969. Do you refer to Major Cameron?-Yes; and Edmonstone too. Spence & Co. are the principal fish-curers in Unst. They are lessees of Major Cameron's property, and, I think they receive fish from Mr. Edmonstone's tenants also.
. Is there anything further you wish to say with regard to the fishings?-With reference to Burra, some years ago there was a letter written to Mr. Mack, Edinburgh, who had the management of the property for the Misses Scott, and a copy of it was sent to us without a signature. It was a letter remarking, very strongly on the management of Burra at the time; and as there may be something said about it, I think it better to read it-
'COPY LETTER to Mr. Mack, dated the 5th April 1869.
'James S. Mack, Esq.
'MY DEAR SIR,-Having had occasion to visit Burra officially a few days ago, it was suggested to me to bring under your notice some of those grievances of which the people complain, so that on any renewal of the lease of the Islands taking place, you might be able stipulate more advantageously for the poor people.
'From the statements submitted to me, it would appear-
'1st, That every householder is bound to pay one pound sterling annually for every son who, being a common fisherman, ships in any Faroe-going fishing smack not belonging to the lessees or the agent of the North Sea Company, otherwise he must remove from the island or expel any such son from his home.
'2d, That every tenant is bound to uphold, at his own expense, his house and offices, and whenever required to remove, to leave them in a state of good repair without any indemnification.
'3d, That every fisherman is bound to deliver his fishings to the
lessees at such a price as they may be disposed to give. While
the price given is never
'4th, That all oysters dredged must be delivered to the lessees
at Scalloway, under the penalty of expulsion; from house and
land; while the price paid in
'5th, And that every person on the Islands is bound not to sell any article to a neighbour, under the penalty of instant expulsion from the island. If, for example, you were living on the isle, any fisherman who sold you a tusk or cod incurred the penalty of expulsion. And as the system of barter is common in Shetland, if any woman got in exchange for her hosiery tea or sugar or meal from any merchant-as the lessees purchase no hosiery-she exposes her family to the loss of house and land and expulsion from the island if she is known to sell any of the goods she has received in return for her handiwork to any neighbour, however needful or anxious such neighbour may be to purchase for money the article thus obtained.
'These, as represented to me, form some of the grounds of complaint against the system adopted and enforced by the lessees, and, as grievances, they are felt all the more keenly because of the perfect contrast which is found to exist between the Burra people and surrounding Islanders.
'In Trondra, under the hands of your lessees as factors, the people can sell their labour and their goods to any buyer, so being they pay the stipulated rent.
'In Hildesay, Luija, and Havera the tenants fish, cure, and sell to the proprietor or others at the average price of the county, paying their rents in money.
'The natural result of all this is the production of a feeling of bondage most unfavourable in its influence towards the lessees themselves, and most pernicious in its influence over the tenants under them.
'Not only are the obligations under which the Burra people bend, introducing discord into families, restraining the energies of the fishermen, and tending to a deeply rooted aversion towards the lessees and their service, but producing systems of chicanery and deceit subversive of moral principle and destructive of all efforts in the proper training of the young.
'Having had these matters forced upon my attention, I am constrained to yield to the pressure, and submit them to your consideration-notwithstanding my great personal respect for the lessees-as requested, and that, in the hope that if you can now or hereafter mitigate the evil under which the tenants groan, in connection with the renewal of the lease, should such be contemplated, you will cordially do so, and thus confer upon them a lasting benefit.
'Before closing, I may add that a suggestion was made to submit the case to the consideration of the Fishery Board; but, as the constitution and functions of that board are unknown to me, I have deferred until obtaining any suggestion you may be pleased to make for the future guidance of the poor people who, through me, now solicit your sympathy and aid.
'Having fulfilled my promise to write you, I have to express the hope that this confidential communication may receive your kind consideration, while any suggestion you may make for the improvement of the circumstances of the people will be cordially welcomed by.'
That letter was sent to us to report upon, and we made some notes on it at the time, which I may read also-
'NOTES on a Letter of Complaint addressed to, Mr. Mack,S.S.C.,Edinburgh, dated 5th April 1869, as to the Management of theBurra Islands under the present Tack.
'The writer of this letter, if he is stating honestly the reports that he has heard on his visits to Burra, seems to have considered it quite unnecessary to inquire whether they were true or false before committing them to paper; and apparently from a desire to make out a case of oppression, he has been ready to receive all that could help to it without separating the chaff from the wheat.
'The first head is, that every tenant is bound to pay £1 per annum for their sons who do not fish in vessels belonging to the tacksmen, or those of the Fishery Company under their management. In answer to this, it always been felt a great hardship to pay rent year after year for old men who were deeply indebted and earning little or nothing, but who had grown-up sons living, at home in idleness all winter and going out of the Islands to fish to strangers in summer. In order to get them to assist their parents, intimation was given at the commencement of the tack that such a charge would be made; but the result is, nothing has been recovered from them, and several of the Lerwick fishing vessels are manned up year after year with the best fishermen in Burra, and their fathers remain hopelessly in debt. Perhaps Mr Mack's correspondent would say, rather than impose such a condition on the young men, we should roup up their fathers and turn them out of the Islands as paupers, when the sons would be compelled by law to assist them?
'The second charge is, that the tenants are bound to uphold their houses at their own expense. This complaint, unlike the others, is quite correct, but the obligation is not felt by the tenants to be very oppressive. [Page 98] Had the proprietors to pay the expense the case would be different, and this, added to the public burdens, would pretty well exhaust the whole rents. Such things, however, are never considered by would-be philanthropists; and if matters are made easy for the tenants, landlords may starve. Burra is not the only place in Shetland, or out of it, where tenants are bound to uphold their own houses.
'Third, The tenants hold their farms on the express condition that
they shall deliver their fish to the factors; but it is quite untrue
that the price allowed 'is never
'The lessees have no hesitation in referring to the tenants, themselves and to all other parties in the locality to whom the circumstances are known. (See annexed note of the prices paid in Burra and throughout Shetland for the last four years.) As to the obligation on the tenants to deliver their fish to the factors-if they were free to cure and sell as they chose, who would advance them, with boats and fishing materials, and support their families during the progress of the fishing? and would the proprietors get the rents paid half-yearly as at present? or would they not rather find the principal part of it standing as arrears in their books at the end of the first year of freedom? And in the event of a short fishing or bad crop (both frequent occurrences), without any one to assist them till the return of better seasons, is it not evident, at least to those who know about tenants in fishing districts, that the Burra people would soon be little better than paupers?
'Take the last year as an instance, when the heavy debt due by the tenants to the lessees was increased upwards of £200.
'Mr. Mack's correspondent should suggest a remedy for all these evils, to be inserted in the next lease; or, as he seems to hint that the Fishery Board may be induced to interfere and make things straight now, it might be well to place the Islands under his management for a year or two by way of trial. The lessees could have no objections if the balances due to them were paid.
'The oyster fishing is the fourth grievance, and the statements in it are as little in accordance with facts as the rest. A few years ago, when oysters came to be asked after for export, the scaaps in Burra being of limited extent, an attempt was made to preserve them for old men and others in the quarter who were unable to prosecute the spring fishings; but in the course of a year or two people came from Scalloway and other places and carried them away in boat-loads. Seeing this, the factors told the Burra folks as far as possible to secure the oysters for themselves, and they have since been selling them in large quantities here and there without let or hindrance, and it is said the supply is now about exhausted. The tack conveys right to the whole fishings of the islands; and had the matter been of any importance, the lessees might have interdicted strangers, and limited the fishing for the benefit of the tenants as first intended; but this cause of offence seems to be set at rest now for the remainder of the lease.
'The fifth statement appears to be, that people living in the Islands, not fishing themselves (suppose ministers or the schoolmasters, as these are the only parties in the Islands no way connected with the fishings), cannot get fish to purchase for their own use. This is quite absurd; no such restriction was ever heard of or imagined, either by proprietors; tacksmen, or tenants.
'And next, as to tea sellers, had not the Excise interfered to put down the practice, every other house in Burra would have been a shop in a small way to sell, not only tea, but other goods of a less harmless description that had not always passed through a custom-house. The tacksmen plead guilty to using their best endeavours to assist in shutting up these shops, but they deny that they have ever interfered with the Burra people directly or indirectly in the sale of their cattle, hosiery, or produce of any kind, except fish. Nor have they ever placed a shop in the Islands for sake of the tenants custom, as they might have done, but left them free to sell such produce and obtain their supplies where they liked.
'Trondra is referred to as a free island; but does Mr. Mack's
correspondent suppose the people are in better circumstances on
that account? And is he aware of the amount of arrears due to the
landlord? the tenants' earnings, in most cases, being spent as fast
as they are made. If the tenants in the other islands mentioned are
free also, it is not generally understood to be the case, and it
happens at this very time two tenants from these
3971. Is it the case that no other shop than yours is allowed in Burra?-Yes.
3972. You say that if shops were allowed there, every other house would be used as a shop, and every person would set up for selling tea and other goods?-Yes. What I referred to there was, that the Burra people were in the habit of bringing home a quantity of uncustomed goods from Faroe, and going round the country and selling them elsewhere. We set our face against that, and endeavoured to put it down.
3973. Has there been a tendency to that in the Faroe fishing?-Not lately; because some of the people were severely punished for it.
3974. But formerly there was a tendency that way?-At first there was a good deal done in that way, but now I don't think there is anything.
3975. You are not aware whether there is any smuggling in the Shetland Islands at present?-Two or three years ago, there were some of the crews severely punished for that, and I don't think there is any smuggling going on now.
3976. That was one of your reasons for prohibiting shops in Burra?-Yes, it was one reason.
3977. But the effect of that prohibition is that the people have to go to Scalloway for goods?-They can go out of the island and get their goods where they like.
3978. Have you information at present from which you are able to state what proportion of the Burra islanders keep accounts with your shop in Scalloway?-Not at present. Their names may be in the books, but they may get very small supplies from us, and they can get supplies from other people as well.
3979. There are other shops in Scalloway?-Yes; there are several other shops there, and the men may take some goods from us and some from others.
3980. You say that now the oyster-beds there are really exhausted?-Yes. Oysters were got in pretty large quantities in Burra for a number of years, but now they are exhausted; they were taken up in such quantities and sent away.
3981. Are there any oysters got at Scalloway?-Very few. You can get a hundred or half a hundred occasionally.
3982. Are the men bound to deliver to your firm what oysters they take up?-No; they have not been doing it.
3983. Then they are free to dispose of the oysters to any person they like?-They are free to dispose of them, but there are so few to get now that it is no object to go in for that.
3984. Have there been no disputes about oysters there?-Not that I know of. The Scalloway people carried away a great many oysters from Burra.
3985. You have prepared a note showing the number of families in Burra, and also the total sums paid in cash to your fishermen at settlement at your other stations besides Whalsay?-Yes. The number of families in Burra is 108. There are 318 males on the island, and 867 females-in all 685. I may mention also that [Page 99] of the Burra men who go to the fishing, in summer in smacks, 19 went in vessels belonging to Hay & Co., and 73, in vessels belonging to other owners. The cash paid to fishermen at settlement at other stations besides Whalsay was as follows 1870, Fetlar & E. Yell, . . £138 19 3 " Dunrossness . . 521 13 111/2 " North Roe . . 539 9 01/2 1871, Fetlar & E. Yell, . . 310 6 61/2 " Dunrossness . . 395 19 3 " North Roe . . 757 17 01/2
In the statement which I gave in, I stated that the arrears of land-rent due on the Simbister estate were £57; but since the statement was prepared, that sum has been lessened by £8, which has been paid.
3986. Do you pay your balances to the Whalsay men by cheques on the Union Bank?-Not altogether. To some extent we pay them in notes and gold and silver.
3987. In 1870, you gave cheques to the amount of in sums of £5 and upwards?-Yes.
3988. Below that sum they would be paid in cash?-Yes. In the past year I gave cheques to the amount of £465.
3989. Some of these men, I suppose, would leave their money at the bank?-I daresay they did.
3990. Is there anything else that occurs to you to state with regard to the fishings?-Nothing.
3991. You are now out of the trade of engaging men for the Greenland whale fishery?-We are just about out of it.
3992. You have intimated to your correspondents in the south that you are not to act for them any longer in that matter?-Yes.
3993. Your commission there was 21/2 per cent. upon the wages and oil-money of each man, and that commission was paid to you by the shipowners?-Yes.
3994. Do you consider that that was an inadequate remuneration for the trouble you had with the men?-Yes. It was not only an inadequate remuneration, but we were supposed to be taking advantage of the men in settling with them, and that has led us to give up the agency. It was thought that we did not actually settle with them in cash, but that we gave them goods for their wages