3995. You have added to your written statement on this subject an abstract of your dealings for the last three years with the men engaged in some of these whaling vessels, which shows that during that period the average amount of wages and oil-money paid annually to each man was £11, 13s. 6d.; the supplies given to the man before sailing and to his family during his absence were on an average £1, 7s. 2d-leaving a balance of £10, 6s. 4d, which was paid in cash?-Yes. That balance was actually paid to the men in cash, in presence of the marine superintendent, by one of our clerks. Perhaps I may be allowed to refer to the report made by Mr Hamilton to the Board of Trade on this subject, which was communicated to the previous Commissioners on Truck, and which is printed in the appendix to their report.
3996. Have you any explanation to make with regard to that report?-The only explanation I have to make is to contradict publicly the whole statements contained in it; and I hope the result of your examination here will prove to the author of report, and to others, that they should not hastily jump at conclusions, and condemn people unheard.
3997. Do you contradict the whole of the statements in that report, without exception?-Yes, I contradict them publicly, and I say that, they are not in accordance with the facts.
3998. The report says: 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt to some shopkeeper:' is that incorrect?-It is not the case that the whole fishermen in the islands are in debt.
3999. Is it not the case that the majority of the fishermen employed by you are in debt to your shop?-It is not. In the case of Whalsay alone, I paid £1374 to the men when I settled with them. None of them are in debt, and they have usually large sums of money to get.
4000. That is to say, they are not in debt in December when they are settled with?-Yes; and during the next year, if they have occasion to get supplies from the shop while the fishing is going on, they get them, but they are not in debt, because they are getting fish daily; and their account, although not settled, is running in their favour. We would probably be in their debt if we were to settle with them at any time during the season.
4001. But before the spring fishing begins, do they not generally run up an amount of debt at the merchants shops?-Not generally. I think the men generally take money to pay for anything they want.
4002. Is it the case that cash payments at these shops are more frequent about this season of the year, when the men have had their settlements lately over, than they are subsequently?-I think so, because they have money to pay for the articles they buy.
4003. Will the returns made by your shopkeepers of sales at the shops, or the accounts kept with the fishermen, show that?-The shopman's cash-book would show what the daily drawings were.
4004. Do you mean the daily drawings in cash?-Yes, the money.
4005. And you think the daily drawings in cash are probably larger at this season than at other times?-I should think so, because the people have more money in their hands.
4006. Then, if there is any truth in this statement, it must apply, in ordinary seasons, to the period after the fishing has begun?-Yes, it must apply to that; but the statement Mr. Hamilton makes, as to paying seamen's wages, is utterly untrue.
4007. It is true, I suppose, that agents are employed in Lerwick to secure the services of men for ships in the Greenland fishery?- Yes.
4008. Then the portion of that sentence which, I presume, you deny, is that the agents get little direct profit from their agency?- No; they do get little direct profit-only 21/2 per cent. on the wages and oil-money of the men.
4009. These agents are all shopkeepers, and most of them are proprietors of land themselves, or act land agents for others: is that so?-Yes, that is true.
4010. There are only three or four such agents in Lerwick- yourselves, while you continued to act in that way, Mr. Leask, Mr. Tait who has now retired, and Mr Tulloch, of A. Laurenson & Co.?-Yes; Mr Tait has been succeeded, I believe, by Messrs. Leisk and Sandison. There are no others that I know of.
4011. Mr. Hamilton says: 'The owners merely find the money to pay the wages of the men engaged. The agents manage everything else. The agents are, of course, interested in getting employment for those who are in their debt.' Is it the case, as a rule, that the men engaged for these Greenland voyages have been in debt?- No. It has been so difficult for many years now to get the men forward; that we have been very willing to take any man who would come, without regard to what part of the country he belonged to.
4012. But are the men so engaged frequently in debt to the shopkeeper who engages them?-No. I think you will see that from the copy of the letter which we wrote to one of the shipowners.
4013. Is it not true in point of fact, as stated here, that the agents supply the men's outfits?-We go to the custom-house with the men after they have been engaged, and we pay them their first month's advance in cash, and that first month's advance is repaid us by the owners of the ship. We cannot open an account in our books with any of these men unless we take the risk of the debt, because the terms of their agreement are that when they come back from their voyage, nothing is to be deducted from their wages except that first month's advance, and their monthly note, if they have one.
4014. But, as a matter of fact, are these men supplied with their outfit by the agent who engages them?-The men are quite at liberty to take their money, and get their outfit where they like.
[Page 100]
4015. Still, as a matter of fact, they are supplied with their outfit by the agent, are they not?-No. We have supplied them to a very small extent; the extract I have produced from our books shows the full amount we have supplied them with, not only for their outfit, but for their whole supplies during the season.
4016. Then, during the absence of these men do their families come to your shop frequently for supplies?-We cannot give them any supplies unless they have their monthly note, and if we give them any supplies, then we credit that note. If a man leaves a monthly note to supply his family during his absence with one-half of his wages, then his family can get supplied to that extent.
4017. You supply them, if they wish, to the amount of that note?- Yes, either cash or in goods. Many of the people, if they are living in the country, take these monthly notes and hand them over to some of their friends in the country, who transmit them to Lerwick and get the money for them.
4018. In that case, these notes are not taken out in the shape of goods from your shop?-No.
4019. Are you aware whether these monthly notes are ever taken out in name of the agents?-It is very possible they may be, when the men want that to be done.
4020. Has that occurred in your dealings with them?-I think so. In some cases we get the monthly notes, and pay the value of them to the families as they become due, either in money or in goods.
4021. Whether is it more frequently in money or in goods that you have paid these notes to their families?-Some of the members of their families come into town with the monthly notes when they are due and they get the money.
4022. Or goods?-Or goods. If they want anything before the monthly note is due, they get goods, but it is very seldom that that is done. However, the result of our transactions with these men appears from the excerpt I have produced, which shows that the advances made did not come to 30s, while at settling we paid the men upwards of £10 each, in cash, taking them as a whole.
4023. When that sum of £10 is paid to them, is there a standing account against them at any of your shops?-No; the men are quite clear. For instance, in the case of the 'Labrador' for the past year, the men's wages and oil-money came, to £221, 7s. 4d., and we had not an account standing against any of them in our books.
4024. Do you state that in all cases referred to in that excerpt from your books, the sums stated as having been paid in cash were paid in full, and that at the time when they were paid there was no account due to your firm by the men?-Yes; there was not one farthing due when these sums were paid.
4025. Because it might very well happen that you had an account against them, although the cash was paid at the time in presence of the superintendent?-I understand what you mean, but the accounts will show that the men were all clear at the date of the payment.
4026. Is that at the date when the final releases were signed?-No. The final release is only signed when they get their second payment of oil-money. The second payment of oil-money is comparatively trifling, only a few shillings to each man; and they have before then been paid up their whole earnings to within 10s. or 15s. or 20s.
4027. Does the abstract account you have given in apply to the state of things at the date of the final discharge of the men?-I think it is taken from our books after the account of each ship was closed, except in the case of 1871, because we had not got their second payment of oil-money for that year, when the excerpt was made.
4028. Are all the accounts closed for 1870?-Yes.
4029. You mean that the men have got payment of the whole of their oil-money, including the second payment, for that year?- Yes; and we have now got the whole of their oil-money for 1871 also.
4030. Has the final release for 1871 be signed?-I suppose so; but I don't settle with the men personally. It is one of our clerks who does so. The part of the report to the Board of Trade which I wish particularly to refer to is this: 'It is true that the Board of Trade rules provide that "the balance to be paid to the man is the balance due on account of his voyage, deducting only such advances and allotments, as shall have been stipulated for in the agreement; and the value of such stores as may have been supplied to him personally during the voyage by the master." But no time is fixed for settlement, and the consequence is that it is the interest of the agent to delay it until he gets the man in debt to him again; and when he does pay to the man the balance of wages due to him before the superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all back to the agent at once to whom he is indebted in an equal or greater amount; and I need hardly point out that it is clearly most important in the interests of the man, that he should not merely nominally, but actually receive his wages in cash, and be able to spend them as he likes.' That part of the report is not correct.'
4031. Is it not the case that the releases of the seamen are very frequently signed many months after the ship has arrived and discharged her men?-I have explained the reason for that in my statement. The men always go home whenever the ship arrives, and come back to settle as they find it convenient for themselves.
4032. But is it the case that it is often six or eight months afterwards before the settlement is made?-It is the case that the owners don't perhaps send down account of the oil that has been boiled until this time of the year, and sometimes after this time; but we pay the men before then nearly up to what we suppose the amount of oil will be. Any small sum that is left out is sometimes not paid until the ship comes out again in the following year.
4033. The time for engaging men for the Greenland voyage is in February or March?-Yes; in the end of February or beginning of March.
4034. And you state that in your business, as agents, there is no account running with any of these men during the period after the termination of the voyage, and before the last payment of oil-money?-There is no account running with them from the time when they settle finally until they engage again.
4035. Then, at the engagement, a new account is generally opened for the outfit?-No; we have nothing to enter against them when they engage again, but just the money we pay them at the custom-house. We charge them with the month's advance which we pay them there; that is the only entry we have against them. In one or two cases there may be more-perhaps a few shillings; but in the case of the 'Labrador,' which I have already referred to, we had not a sixpence marked against any man in the vessel.
4036. What is the main reason for taking the advance notes in name of the shipping agents?-I suppose the men prefer it, because it is just as convenient for them to hand the advance notes to the shipping agents as to any other one in Lerwick.
4037. But if the advance note is taken in the name of any of the man's friends, that would entitle them to get payment of so much of his wages from the shipping agent?-Yes; but the advance note must be addressed to an agent, because the owners of the ship are here to cash it, and the agent must pay it to somebody, either to the man's wife, or to any other one that she transfers it to.
4038. But what I asked was, whether these advance notes were not taken payable, not to wife, but to the shipping agent, himself?-I think not; it is either to the wife or to some of the man's friends.
4039. I understood you to say that sometimes they were made payable to the shipping agent?-They are payable by the shipping agent. It is the agent who has to pay them.
4040. But you say they are never made payable to him as well as by him, so that he has really the control over them, if they are handed to him?-He has [Page 101] the control over them He advances the money either to the wife or to any person that she sends for it.
4041. But, in point of fact, they are not made payable to him as well as by him?-They are made payable to his order.
4042. Do you say that these notes are not so taken by the shipping agent, that he gets the benefit of them and the control over them, and that the wife has no control over them whatever?-It is quite possible that may be done in some cases, but I cannot say.
4043. But that has not been done in your practice?-I shall send for one of the forms of these notes, and that will explain the matter better to you.
4044. I understand these advance notes and allotment notes are negotiable; at least they are indorsed by the seaman's wife as a receipt?-I suppose when they are brought to the merchant they are indorsed by her, and he pays the value of the note to anybody who brings it.
4045. Can the seaman himself indorse the note beforehand?-In many cases the seamen don't get any of these allotment notes at all, especially on these short voyages to Greenland.
4046. But on a long voyage, does the seaman in point of fact indorse the note?-A married man, I suppose, will take out these advance notes to his family.
4047. And he indorses them?-I think so; but not in every case.
4048. Does he, in some cases, indorse specially to the ship's agent?-Not to my knowledge; but I have not had that matter through my hands lately, and I cannot speak to it with certainty.
4049. Do you not attend to that part of your business yourself?- No; Mr. Goudie, one of our clerks does it.
4050. Then, the contradiction you have made of the statement in the report to the Board of Trade has been made on behalf of your firm?-Yes.
4051. You have no knowledge of the way in which other agents in Lerwick have dealt?-No; but I believe these agents, as well as ourselves, are very glad to get any men they can meet with to engage for the fishing. There is sometimes great difficulty experienced in manning the ships, and we cannot pick and choose.
4052. The commission of 21/2 per, cent. is matter of private bargain between you and the shipowners?-Yes.
4053. So that, if that is an insufficient remuneration, it might by private agreement be increased?-I suppose it might; but if the owners can get people to do their work for 21/2 per cent., they will not increase it.
4054. However, the principal thing you wish to state upon that point is, that at the time when you engage these men for a Greenland voyage, none of them are, in point of fact, in debt to your firm?-None of them. That is stated in one of the letters we wrote to one of the owners in Peterhead.
4055. There have been special regulations issued by the Board of Trade applicable to the discharge of seamen in Orkney and Shetland from the whalers, which are intended to allow a longer period for signing the release?-Yes.
4056. These regulations provide-'(1.) The agreement shall be entered into before the Superintendent of a Mercantile Marine office, and shall show the advance of wages made, and the allotments to be paid during the ship's absence; there shall also be a stipulation in regard to the travelling expenses of the men on their return home, in the event of their being taken past their own island. (2.) The master of the ship shall keep a separate store book for the Shetland and Orkney men, containing a distinct account for each of the men, in which, on the ship's return, he shall show the wages, and estimate the amount of oil and bone money, etc., to which they are respectively entitled; the account to be signed by himself and the seaman whom it concerns, in proof of its accuracy. At the foot of the account he shall state his opinion of the character of the man to enable the agent to prepare the certificate of discharge and character. (3.) When the men are landed the master shall deliver the book to the agent in order that the account of wages etc., may be prepared therefrom; and the balances due to the men shall be paid to them in the presence of the Superintendent at the Mercantile Marine Office, to whom the store book is to be produced by the agent. The balance to be paid to the man is to be the balance due on account of the voyage, deducting only such advances and allotments as shall have been stipulated for in the agreement, and the value of such stores as may have been, supplied to him personally during the voyage by the master'?-It has been found to be impossible to comply with that regulation about settling with the men when they are landed, because the moment they are landed they hurry to their homes, and only come back to Lerwick to settle as they find it convenient for themselves.
4057. And in point of fact the settlement is delayed for weeks?- Yes, for weeks, and sometimes for months.
4058. Are the balances contained in the statement you have produced the balances referred to in the regulation I have read?- They are the actual cash balances due to the men, and the actual amount paid to the men in cash.
4059. The deductions in the second column are supplies made by you in goods?-Yes.
4060. Is it not an infringement of the Merchant Shipping Act of 1864, to supply goods even to that limited extent?-These supplies may have been made on monthly notes; and there is nothing in the Merchant Shipping Act to prevent us from giving credit to men going to Greenland the same as to any person at home, provided they come back and pay us. We know them, and could trust them to come back; but I don't think that, in any case, we have given them any credit.
4061. If you did not give them credit, how did you find it necessary to deduct these supplies?-In that case the supplies may have been given under monthly allotment notes.
4062. What you mean is that the £1, 7s. 2d. which you state as the average of the deductions may have been paid either in cash or in goods?-Yes. I think I have explained that in the paper I have given in.
4063. You say in one of the letters you have quoted, that 'the supplies mentioned in the account consist mostly of meal, given to the men's families to account of their half pay notes, and on which the profits cannot pay cellar rents and servants' wages'?-When a half-pay note not due until the end of the month, and the wife sends in and wants some meal in the meantime, she gets the meal, and we deduct it from the half-pay notes when we pay them.
4064. Then the half-pay notes are not generally paid cash?-They are generally paid in cash, but before they are due we give them goods to account.
4065. Am I to understand that these notes are paid mostly in meal or mostly in cash?-They are paid partly in meal, and rest is paid in money when the notes are due. If a woman has 20s. of a half pay note, she gets perhaps 5s. in meal, and then she gets the rest of the money in full when it is due. The second column in the abstract I have produced, shows the actual goods advanced, and the actual money.
4066. Have you now got one of the forms of the advance note?- Yes [produces it]; that form is addressed to us.
4067. That is to say, you are to pay it?-Yes; and the woman, when she gets the money, signs her name on the back of the note.
4068. Is it not the case sometimes that in the lines issued to Lerwick seamen the order is to pay is in favour of the ship's agent himself?-Not that I know of.
4069. Has there been no indorsation by the seaman or his wife, in any case that you are aware of which was equivalent to an order to pay to the ship's agent himself?-That could only have had the effect of reserving the agent's claim against the shipowner.
4070. No, it would enable him to retain the money which he would be bound to pay at settlement or at the end of the month when the allotment note became due to the wife or sister, or other relation [Page 102] of the seaman. Have you known any case of that kind?-There may have been such cases, but I have not been aware of them.
4071. The third article of these regulations by the Board of Trade goes on to say-'The superintendent is not to allow any deduction to be made in their account for stores supplied by the agent or by tradesmen to the seaman's family during the seaman's absence, nor is he to permit the insertion in the account of deductions for any transactions in money or goods that may have taken place before the commencement of the voyage.' I suppose that refers to the form of note now shown to me?-Yes. In fact he is not to allow anything to go into the settlement, except what is provided for in the agreement.
4072. Are these supplies, which are stated in the note, not an infringement of that rule of the Board of Trade?-No. As I mentioned already, I suppose the greater part of these supplies have been made on allotment notes.
4073. But although made on the allotment notes, yet they are supplies made by the agent to the seaman's family, and they are deducted from his wages at the end?-Yes; but these allotment notes are provided for to be included in the settlement with the seaman when he returns. They are made a legal claim against his wages.
4074. Does the rule not imply that the allotment notes are to he paid in money?-The man's family can get them either in money or in goods, as they choose. The woman may perhaps not wait until the end of the month to receive her £1, 2s. 6d. she may want a part of it in the early part of the month, or in the middle of the month; and she comes and gets either money or goods, as she chooses; and then at the end of the month she gets the balance.
4075. When she gets the goods in the middle of the month, she gets them on credit?-Yes; and she pays for them out of the £1, 2s. 6d. when she gets her allotment note settled; but I think that has occurred only to a very small extent. I think there are very few of the seamen who take these allotment notes at all. The young men don't require to take them; it is only the married men who require them.
4076. If it is the case that very few take them, then the whole of these supplies are not on allotment notes?-I think a good many of them have been given on allotment notes.
4077. But so far as they were not on allotment notes, in what way were the supplies furnished? Has it been upon accounts opened with the men for their outfit before starting?-I think that has very seldom been the case. They may occasionally get a few shillings worth when they go out; but we take care to give as little credit in that way as possible.
4078. Were the deductions you have stated here [showing] allowed by the superintendent in settling with these seamen?-No. These deductions, as I have said already, are in the form of allotment notes.
4079. But you have told me that only some of them were in the form of allotment notes; in what way were the rest of the deductions made?-The superintendent does not allow any deductions, unless what are specially mentioned in the agreements. If these men got a few shillings of advance before they went away, it is possible that may have been included, they come back and pay it after the settlement at the custom-house.
4080. Then, this total of £10, 6s. 4d. [showing] paid in cash does not show the amount that was actually handed over in presence of the superintendent?-I think it does, or near about it.
4081. But not altogether to a penny?-Perhaps not so near as that, but I took the book and went over it carefully, and picked out all the cash the men had got, and all the goods, and separated them.
4082. In settling with the men before the superintendent, you are entitled to deduct the amount of allotment notes issued is that so?-Yes; and the first month's advance, and any advances the men may have had on board the vessel during the voyage.
4083. Does the £270, 1s., 7d., mentioned in your abstract of accounts, represent the whole of the deductions that were so allowed by the superintendent?-Perhaps not exactly the whole; I shall send for the book, and it will explain it better.
4084. There may have been something due for supplies furnished in addition to what was allowed by the superintendent, and for which the seaman settled with you after receiving his cash?- Perhaps that may have been so, but I have not been in the habit of settling with the men myself.
4085. Perhaps your clerk, who settled with the men, can explain it better, as he has been in the way of carrying through the transactions?-Yes.
4086. But what I understand you to say is, that you cannot state that sum of £1, 7s. 2d. represents the whole amount of advances which on an average each received from you?-The only thing I can state just now is, that out of an average of £11, 13s. 6d., which each man was entitled to receive each year over a period of three years, we only paid them £1, 7s. 2d. in goods
4087. But you cannot state that that £1, 7s. 2d. all fell under the category of deductions allowed by the regulations of the Board of Trade?-No; not unless I were to go over every man's account, and pick out what had been given to him under allotment notes.
4088. And you cannot state that the sum of £10, 6s. 4d. was the sum which actually passed in cash at the settlement before the superintendent?-It is the actual sum which passed into the men's hands in cash.
4089. Do you say that there was not a larger sum than that which passed between the men and your clerk before the superintendent at settlement, part of which was returned to you afterwards, in payment for supplies?-I don't know about that, because I have not been in the habit of going up to the custom-house with the men; but I went over the books myself, and I found that £10, 6s. 4d. was the amount in cash which the men got out of the sum of £11, 13s. 6d., in whatever way it was paid to them.
4090. You cannot say whether it was paid before the superintendent or not?-No; I cannot say.
4091. Is there anything else you wish to state?-No; I think everything has been referred to.
Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANET EXTER, examined.
4092. Where do you live?-At Satter, in Sandwick parish.
4093. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.
4094. For whom?-For Mr. Robert Linklater. I knitted for him first.
4095. Does he supply you with wool?-He gives us worsted to knit.
4096. You don't knit with your own worsted?-No.
4097. What do you knit?-Mostly veils.
4098. How often you come to Lerwick with them?-Generally at the end of every month.
4099. Do you keep an account with Mr. Linklater?-We get no lines, and I have not a pass-book.
4100. Why have you not a pass-book?-Because he thought there was no use giving us a pass-book when he marked all the things down in his own book, and he would not give it.
4101. When you go to him with your veils, how are you paid?- Very poorly. We just get 8d. for a veil.
4102. How is that paid to you-in money or goods?-In goods. I have asked for a payment in money, but he would not give any. He gives us tea for 9d. and 10d. a quarter.
4103. Would you give your veils for less if you could get money for them?-Yes, for a little less.
4104. For how much less?-Not much.
4105. Are you not as well off getting the goods as you got money?-No; I would be better off with the money.
4106. Why? Do you not want to buy the articles [Page 103] which Mr. Linklater sells to you?-No. Sometimes we need a little meal.
4107. Have you no other means of getting meal than from your knitting?-No.
4108. Do you not work out of doors?-We work in the field and in the turnips.
4109. But it is yourself I am speaking of. Do you live with your father and mother?-Yes.
4110. Have they got a bit of ground?-Very little; a peerie (small) bit.
4111. But you think you would be better with money, and you want to buy meal with it?-Yes, I want to buy some meal. I dropped knitting to Mr. Linklater and went to Mr. Sinclair. I asked a little money from him, and I got 2s. or 3s. So far as I saw, there was more justice in him than in Mr. Linklater.
4112. If you were only paid for your knitting in dresses and goods of that sort, what did you do when you wanted to buy meal?-We had to take the goods home, and give the cotton and tea for the meal we wanted.
4113. To whom did you give the cotton and tea?-Just to any person who would give us meal for them.
4114. Is there a shop in your neighbourhood?-Yes.
4115. Have you given goods there in exchange for meal?-Yes, sometimes.
4116. Does the shopkeeper there take your goods from you in that way, in exchange for any articles you want?-Yes, sometimes, when we require anything.
4117. What is his name?-Mr. Gavin Henderson, at Ness, Sandwick.
4118. Is it a common thing for Mr. Henderson to take goods from you?-No.
4119. He generally wants to be paid in money?-Yes.
4120. Is that the only thing you have done with the goods except using them yourself?-No. When I met any person that I could get a little meal from in exchange for them, I have given them for that.
4121. Have you ever given away your goods to any other person than Mr. Henderson for money or meal?-Not very often.
4122. Have you ever done it?-Yes.
4123. To whom have you given them?-Just to any person thereabout.
4124. You have given them to any neighbour who wanted the goods, and happened to have meal?-Yes.
4125. When was that?-It was about two or three years back.
4126. You have not done it for the last two or three years?-No.
4127. How was that? Have you been better off?-Yes, a little; but not much.
4128. You have been getting some money from Mr. Sinclair during the last two or three years?-Yes; a shilling now and then.
4129. And that would help you?-Yes, it helped a little.
4130. How much do you get in a month for your knitting?-I will get a shilling and a sixpence at a time.
4131. But what is the value of your knitting? What are your earnings in a month?-I will make about eight or nine veils in a month; and when they are made of the finest worsted I get 16d. for them.
4132. Then you will be earning 12s. or 13s. in a month?-Yes.
4133. And you will get a shilling of that in cash now and then?- Yes.
4134. Do you spend the rest in dress?-Yes, and cotton.
4135. How much of that will you give away in the course of a year for meal and money?-I could not say.
4136. You will get about £6 or £7 worth of dress in the course of a year: do you require all that for your own use?-No, I don't require it all.
4137. You give some of it to the rest of your family?-Yes.
4138. Is that all you have got to say?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANE SANDISON; examined.
4139. You have come in from Sandwick parish to give some evidence about the way in which you are paid for your hosiery?- Yes.
4140. Do you knit for any person in town?-Yes; have knitted for Mr. Robert Linklater for four years.
4141. Do you knit with his wool?-Yes.
4142. And are you paid in goods?-Yes.
4143. Do you ever get money?-No.
4144. Have you ever asked for it?-I asked for it one time, and he said he expected money from me, and not I from him.
4145. That was for goods you were to get?-Yes.
4146. But you gave him hosiery instead of money, and you got his goods?-Yes.
4147. Have you ever disposed of any of the goods you got in that way, in order to provide yourself with provisions or to pay rent?- Yes.
4148. To whom have you sold them?-I have sold them to several persons for oil to see to knit.
4149. Do you burn oil in your lamps?-Yes.
4150. To whom did you sell them for oil?-To several persons.
4151. To neighbours?-Yes.
4152. Tell me anything you gave away in that way?-I have given tea.
4153. How much?-Sometimes two ounces for bottle of oil.
4154. When did you do that last?-Last year.
4155. Did you do it often?-Three times.
4156. Did you ever give away your goods for anything else?- Sometimes we gave them away for wool to make into worsted.
4157. Who did you buy wool from?-From any one that I could get it from.
4158. Give me the names of some of the people from whom you got oil and worsted in exchange for your goods?-I gave some tea to Mitchell Sandison for wool.
4159. Did you ever sell any of your soft goods in that way?-No.
4160. It was always tea?-Yes.
4161. Is it a common thing among the knitters in your quarter to give away tea for anything you want?-Yes; for anything we can get for it.
4162. Did you ever pay for meal with it?-No.
4163. Did you ever pay your rent with it?-No.
4164. Did you ever get money for tea?-No.
4165. It was just oil and wool that you got in exchange for it?- Yes.
Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANE HALCROW, examined.
4166. You come from Sandwick parish?-Yes; from North Channerwick.
4167. Do you knit for Mr. Robert Linklater with his wool?-Yes.
4168. Are you paid in goods?-Yes,
4169. Did you ever ask for money?-Yes, once.
4170. Did you get it?-No.
4171. What did you want the money for?-I wanted it for several purposes. We might perhaps require to pay for our board if we were staying a night or two in town; and that was the purpose I wanted it for at that time.
4172. Did you want any of it for provisions to take home?-Yes.
[Page 104]
4173. Are you not content to get the goods you want in return for your hosiery?-We are not very well content sometimes.
4174. Why?-Because if we were getting the money, we might make more of it in some other shops.
4175. Did you ever get the money to make more of it?-We never got money from Mr. Linklater.
4176. But did you ever go to Lerwick with money in your pocket, and make more of it than when you came with hosiery?-Yes, often.
4177. What money was that? Had you earned it by working at other things than knitting?-Yes.
4178. How did you make more of it than you would have done by spending it in the hosiery shop?-I went to other shops where there were better articles.
4179. Where did you go?-Sometimes to Mr. George Tait's.
4180. Does he not buy hosiery?-No, he never buys hosiery.
4181. Where else did you go to?-To Mr. Thomas Nicholson.
4182. But he buys hosiery?-Sometimes; if it is very good.
4183. Tell me anything you bought at Mr. Tait's or Mr. Nicholson's which was cheaper than you would have got it for at the shops where you sold your hosiery?-It was only trifling things we bought out of their shops, because we never had money to buy things of great value from them.
4184. What were some of these trifling things?-Perhaps we were requiring neckties, or ribbons, or flowers; we might get them from them, but we scarcely ever went there to buy anything like dresses. I remember once buying a dress at Mr. George Tait's and I got a splendid bargain of it for money.
4185. Did you get it any cheaper than you would have got it from the shops where they buy hosiery?-Yes; he reduced the price because it was to be paid money.
4186. If you had offered money in Mr. Linklater's or Mr. Sinclair's shops; would you not have got the dress as cheap there?-I don't think it.
4187. Have you any reason to know that you would not?-Yes, I have reason to know that, because if we were buying anything out of their shops we would not get any reduction on the price
4188. Even although you were offering money?-Yes.
4189. Have you gone there with money?-Yes, I have gone with money, but very little. I scarcely ever go to their shops with money if I have it.
4190. Have you ever exchanged any of the goods that you got for your knitting?-No, I have never done that.
4191. You have always wanted them for your own use, or for the use of your family?-Yes.
4192. Have you taken goods from other people which they had got in exchange for their hosiery?-No.
4193. Have you known anybody who did so?-No; I cannot say any person who has done it.
4194. Is that all you came here to say?-I think a very proper thing would be that we should have a little money, if not the whole, for our knitting. It would be a good thing if we could get even the half of it in money.
4195. Did you ever try to get one-half in money?-I only asked for money once-it was a very trifling sum, only 6d.-and I was refused it.
4196. Was that when you had sold your knitting to Mr. Linklater?-No; I was knitting to him at that time with his own worsted.
4197. Did you ever sell anything that you had knitted with your own worsted?-Sometimes I would sell a little.
4198. Were you always paid in goods in the same way?-Yes, always in goods.
4199. Did you ever try to get payment of it in money?-No; because they always said they never gave money; so there was no use asking.
Mrs AGNES MALCOMSON or JOHNSTONE, examined.
4200. Do you live with your husband at Victoria Wharf, Lerwick?-Yes.
4201. Do you sometimes knit?-I do. I generally knit for myself and sell what I have made.
4202. To whom do you sell it?-I cannot mention any one of the merchants that I have sold to more than another. I sell it to any one.
4203. Do you sometimes sell to strangers?-I don't do much in that way.
4204. It is to the merchants in Lerwick that you sell principally?- Yes.
4205. And you get payment for your knitting by taking goods in the usual way?-Yes.
4206. Do you sometimes get a little money?-No, I never get any money.
4207. Have you asked for money, and been refused?-Yes, I have asked for money to pay for the dressing of shawls. It is generally half shawls that I knit.
4208. Have you not been able to get money when you asked for it?-I once got 6d. for that purpose, or rather it was thrown at me.
4209. What do you mean by that?-I mean that it was given in that sort of way.
4210. Would you rather be paid in money than in goods for your knitting?-Yes, much rather.
4211. If you could get money, would you be content to take a rather lower price for your work?-I would indeed.
4212. What is the price of the half shawls you knit?-They vary in price according to the quality of them.
4213. What is the ordinary price you get?-I have got 28s. for a half shawl, and I have got from that down to as low as 12s.
4214. Suppose you were selling a shawl for 16s. in goods, would you be content to take 14s. if you were paid for it in cash?-Yes, I would be quite content to do with that.
4215. Why?-Because I would be able to make more of the 14s. in cash than of the 16s. in goods.
4216. How would you do that?-I would go to the ready money shops, as we call them; and I would do as much with my 14s. in cash as I would do with my 16s. in goods.
4217. Where would you go in Lerwick to make as much of 14s. in cash as the 16s. worth of goods which you would get in one of the other shops?-I don't like to mention the names of these shops publicly, but I will give them privately. [Witness gives the names of two shops.]
4218. Are there more shops than one where you could do that?- Yes; there is one shop especially, but there are others also where I could make as much of 14s. as I could of 16s. in goods.
4219. Have you tried that often?-Not very often, because I have not had it in my power; but when I could do it I tried it.
4220. Have you sometimes, when you had ready money, gone to such a shop as Messrs. Hay & Co.'s?- Not very often.
4221. Have you ever gone there?-Long ago, when I was young, I went there very often, but I have not gone for many years.
4222. Then you cannot tell whether you could make more of your 14s. at a shop like that, than you could at Mr Linklater's or Mr Sinclair's?-I think I would make more in Messrs. Hay's if I had the cash than I would in Mr. Linklater's.
4223. Would you often find it convenient to have the money with which to buy provisions?-Yes, a person like me who has a family would often find it to be convenient. Those of us who have our husbands earnings to live upon are not limited to that; but I have to find the most part of the clothing out of my knitting, or out of my other industry.
4224. Do you employ your time in other ways as well as in knitting?-Yes. I keep a lodger occasionally. I have two or three children at school, and a [Page 105] baby at home to attend to, besides sometimes one, and sometimes two lodgers.
4225. And it would be handy for you to have the money with which to pay school fees?-Yes.
4226. Have you ever been obliged to exchange the goods you got for money for other things you were more in want of?-No; I have never been so hard pushed as that, but I know some people who have.
4227. Were these acquaintances of your own?-Yes; I know them quite well.
4228. Have you ever taken goods from them, and given them money or provisions in exchange?-Yes; I have given a few groceries occasionally, but very few. I have also bought groceries from a knitter, such as tea, which they had taken out in exchange for their work.
4229. How did you pay for that? Did you give the woman money for it?-Yes, I gave her money to help her through for a time.
4230. What was she to do with the money?-That was no business of mine; I don't know.
4231. Did she not tell you what she was to do with it?-No; she did not say, and I did not ask.
4232. Did she come and ask you to take the tea off her hands?- Yes.
4233. Who was that?-I will give the name privately. There was more than one of them. [Witness gives two names.]
4234. Then you think it would be better for the knitters that they should be paid in cash?-Yes, it would be better for all the Lerwick knitters especially.
4235. Why for the Lerwick knitters especially?-Because they are most dependent upon their knitting, especially in the winter season.
Lerwick, January 8, 1872, ROBERT MOUAT, examined.
4236. You are a blacksmith at Olnafirth Voe?-Yes.
4237. You get the principal part of your work from Messrs. Adie, and the fishermen and tenants in that district?-Yes.
4238. In dealing with Messrs. Adie, do you run an account with them?-No; I generally pay in cash for what I get in the shop.
4239. Are you aware whether the prices that you pay in cash are the same as are paid by the fishermen in the neighbourhood?-I am not quite sure about that, but I suppose so.
4240. Can you tell me the prices of any of the articles which you get from their shop? For instance, what do you pay for meal?- The meal that Messrs. Adie sell now is 1s. 5d. per peck, whereas I can get the same meal in Lerwick for 1s. 2d. now. Five months ago, when I lived in Lerwick, I could get it for 1s. 3d.
4241. What do you pay for tea?-There are three kinds of tea; we pay about 3s. 4d. per pound for one kind, about 4s. for another, and I think 3s. is about the lowest.
4242. Is there any other article that you get in any quantity in Messrs. Adie's shop?-I think these are the principal articles we get there.
4243. Do you deal for soft goods there?-A little.
4244. For boots?-No; I have not gone there for boots.
4245. What kind of soft goods do you get?-Winceys and cottons.
4246. Can you tell the prices which are charged for these things, compared with what you would get them for in Lerwick?-No.
4247. Is it commonly supposed that there is more than one price for goods at that shop? Have you heard the fishermen who settle up only once a year, complain that you get your goods cheaper than they did?-I have not heard them say so. It is not long since I went to that place, and I am not very well acquainted with the fishermen there yet.
4248. Where were you before?-I was born in Northmavine, and I was connected with the fishing there.
4249. How long is it since you ceased to fish there?-About fifteen years ago. After leaving Northmavine I came to Lerwick.
4250. Do the fishermen at Voe run an account at the store, which is settled at the end of the fishing season?-I think so.
4251. What reason have you for supposing that? Have they told you so?-They have not told me, but I have been aware of such cases since I went there.
4252. Does that mode of settlement affect you in your trade?-It affects me in this way, that I get a little more custom from the fishermen about the time when they settle, than I do during the rest of the year.
4253. Is that because they have money to pay you with?-Yes.
4254. Do you not give them credit in the rest of the year if they have work to do?-I give them some credit; but I have only been five months there.
Lerwick: Tuesday, January 9, 1872.
WILLIAM GOUDIE, examined.
4255. You are a fisherman at Toab, in Dunrossness, on the property of Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-I am.
4256. Are you under any obligation, by the terms on which you hold your land, to fish for any particular fish merchant?-Yes; we are under an obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce, younger of Sumburgh.
4257. Is that obligation part of a verbal contract or lease which you have with him?-It is generally known that we must not break that rule.
4258. You have no leases on the Sumburgh estate?-No; but we had an offer of a lease. The offer I had is here. [Produces paper.]
4259. The document you hand in is a printed copy of 'Rules for the better management of the Sumburgh estate?'-Yes.
4260. When did you get it?-Last year, at settlement, so far as I remember. That would be in the spring of 1871.
4261. When is your settling time?-There is not always one settling time. Some years it is later, and some years earlier.
4262. Have you settled this year yet?-No.
4263. Was anything said to you about that paper when it was handed to you?-No; it was just handed over to me in Mr. Bruce's office.
4264. Have you signed any copy of these rules?-No.
4265. You have not accepted them as binding upon you?-No.
4266. Do you prefer to continue to hold your land year by year?- No; we should like a lease.
4267. Have you any objection to these rules?-We [Page 106] thought they were not altogether so much on our side of the leaf, as we say, as we should like.
4268. You are not going to accept them?-I don't believe we shall.
4269. But under your present tenure, as you hold your land at present, you say you are bound to deliver all your fish to young Mr. Bruce?-Yes; the fresh fish.
4270. In what way are you so bound? Did you agree to any obligation of that kind?-No; but before I became a tenant, the rule had been issued that all his tenants had to give their fish to him in a fresh state.
4271. When did you become a tenant?-About five or six years ago; and the rule was in force before I came. I have broken the rule very little so that I have not been called in question.
4272. But you took your land knowing that that was a condition of your having it?-Yes.
4273. Have you had to pay any fines for delivering any of your fish to other parties?-No, I have paid none.
4274. Do you understand that such fines are to be levied if you fail to deliver your fish to Mr. Bruce?-I have not heard of any fines; but it has been reported that the tenants would be warned if they did so. I have heard that reported publicly: that they would be warned, or might be warned, on that account.
4275. Did you agree, when taking your lease that you would be liable to pay a fine if you delivered your fish to any other merchant?-No, I was never called upon to agree to that; but it was generally known that we had to give all our fish to him, fresh.
4276. Who told you that you were to give your fish to him?-That was known publicly all over the district before I became a tenant. I understood from my father and brothers and neighbours that they had had to do that, and I became a tenant on the same terms.
4277. Were your father and brothers tenants on the Sumburgh estate before you?-Yes; before I had land from Mr. Bruce.
4278. Before you took the land, were you living on the estate?-I had lived on the estate, for twenty-five years. I was born and brought up on it; then I was absent for eleven years, and then I came back to it. It was during the time I was absent that this rule came into force.
4279. Is there any obligation upon the tenants there to dispose of their cattle or other produce to any particular person?-Not so far as I know.
4280. There is no obligation upon them at all, except as to fish?- Not so far as I know.
4281. How are you paid for your fish?-We are paid so much per hundredweight of fresh fish, just as the price may be yearly. It is not always the same price.
4282. But there is one price for the whole fish of the year?-Yes, for the same kind of fish. There is one price for ling, and one price for saith.
4283. That price is fixed when?-Nearly the time when we settle. We don't know exactly what price we are to get until about that time.
4284. When is that?-It is not always in one month of the year. It has sometimes been as late as March before we settled for the fish we had caught in the previous spring. Sometimes it may have been a month earlier.
4285. Has it ever been earlier than February?-Not so far as I remember.
4286. When were the last of the fish delivered that were settled for at one of these settlements?-Last year, so far as I know, Mr. Bruce settled up for all the fish that had been weighed to him up to the time of the settlement,; at least, most of it was settled for then.
4287. That includes the small fish you catch in winter?-Yes.
4288. Are you bound to deliver them to him, the same as the large fish you get in summer?-Yes.
4289. Then it is both the haaf fishing you are speaking of just now and the small fishing in winter?-Yes. All the fish we catch where I live are ling, cod, tusk, and saith.
4290. But the fishing that you go to in summer is what you call the haaf fishing, or the summer fishing?-Yes; in a sense it is the haaf fishing, though the saith fishing is with us properly the haaf fishing. Some go farther off in bigger boats and with longer lines, and fish for ling and cod; while there are others, in smaller boats and nearer the shore, pursuing the saith fishing. That is the only difference between the kinds of fishing with us.
4291. But the obligation and the settlement for the price of the fish that you have been speaking of applies to both the haaf fishing and the fishing in the smaller boats near the shore?-It applies to all the fishing.
4292. There is no Faroe fishing there?-Some of the men go to it.
4293. But Mr. Bruce does not fit out boats for the Faroe fishing?- Not so far as I know.
4294. And you are under no obligation to him with regard to it?- No.
4295. You say you don't know of any case of fines being imposed for delivering fish to other merchants?-There is no case of that kind that I remember of.
4296. Do you know of any increase of rent being imposed upon that estate in consequence of liberty being given to fish for other merchants?-No. There was liberty asked and granted at one time, before most of those who are here were able to fish. That was under old Mr. Bruce.
4297. How long ago was that?-I don't remember the time. It was when I was a boy. Some of the other witnesses may know about it.
4298. Are you under any obligation to buy your goods from Mr. Bruce's shop?-Not strictly speaking.
4299. What do you mean by 'not strictly speaking?'-In one sense we are not bound, yet in another sense we are bound. There is no rule issued out that we must purchase our goods from there; but as we fish for Mr. Bruce, and have no ready money, we can hardly expect to run accounts with those who have no profit from us. That confines many of us to purchase our goods from his shop.
4300. Are there other stores in the neighbourhood from which you could get your supplies as good and as cheap?-Yes. Messrs. Hay & Co. have a store near us. Some things might not be equally good, but there are other things there which are as good and as cheap.
4301. What other stores are there in your neighbourhood?-There is no store exactly near us until we come to Mr. Gavin Henderson's.
4302. How far is his shop from your place?-It is above a mile.
4303. Is Messrs. Hay's within a mile?-Yes, it is less than that.
4304. Are there fishermen in the neighbourhood of Mr. Henderson's shop, and living on Mr. Bruce's estate?-Mr. Henderson's shop is not on Mr. Bruce's property.
4305. Has he no fishermen living beyond Henderson's shop?- There are some nearly as far north on the east side, but not so far north on the west side. Mr. Bruce's property extends a little farther north on the east side than on the west side of the island, and Mr. Henderson's place is on the west side.
4306. You live on the west side of Dunrossness?-Yes, rather; but we are on the south point, so it does not much matter.
4307. But are fishermen who live nearer to Mr. Henderson's store virtually bound, in the same way as you are to deal at Mr. Bruce's store?-The whole of Mr. Bruce's tenants are on equal terms,-all in equal bondage.
4308. But are there men for whom it would be more convenient to deal at Henderson's store, as they live nearer to it?-Yes.
4309. Are they in the habit of dealing at Mr. Bruce's store for the reasons you have stated?-So far as I know, they are.
4310. The same reason of a want of credit elsewhere, [Page 107] would apply to them as to you, and compel them to go to Mr. Bruce's store?-I don't say that they don't have credit; but we cannot expect to run a heavy account with a man who has no profit from us, when we are uncertain whether we will be able to clear that account or not. Therefore, as a rule, we do not run heavy accounts for such things as meal, for instance, when our crops are a failure, with any man except Mr. Bruce.
4311. That would be just as true of a man who was two miles nearer to Henderson's store than to Mr. Bruce's?-Yes.
4312. And for that reason he may find it necessary, and probably does find it necessary, to go to Mr. Bruce's store, and pass Henderson's, although it is much nearer?-Yes, he has that to do.
4313. Are you satisfied with the quality and the price of the articles which are sold at Mr. Bruce's store?-With the qualities we have no reason to grumble; with the prices we do.
4314. Is that a general feeling in the district?-It is over all, so far as I know.
4315. Have you compared the prices of any particular articles at that store with what you could get them for elsewhere?-I have compared some of them,-not many. For instance, I have tried to compare meal, to see what I lost by having it from Mr. Bruce's shop instead of from other places.
4316. What conclusion did you come to with regard to that?-I concluded in my own mind that the difference was not below 3s. on the boll of meal. It might be more, but I don't think it was less, in this way, that we have our meal weighed to us, not always, but generally, as 112 lbs. to the quarter boll.
4317. Of which store are you now speaking?-The store at Grutness, on Mr. Bruce's property. The meal is weighed at 32 lbs. to the lispund or quarter boll. Mr. Irvine, the storekeeper, told me there was a difference made when the lispunds and half-lispunds and pecks were summed up. I asked him whether there was a difference in the price between that and 35 lbs. to the quarter boll, and he said there was a difference; but I never knew what it was.
4318. Are you speaking just now of a difference in weight?- There is a difference in weight, besides the difference in price. He said he made a difference in the price on account of the short weight, but I never knew what that difference was.
4319. In what quantities do you buy your meal at Grutness store?-Sometimes in a boll, and sometimes in half a boll. Many of the men seldom get a boll, but take their meal in quarter bolls, and sometimes in an eighth of a boll, that is a peck, or 8 lbs.
4320. Is the boll you are speaking of the same as the boll by which you would buy in Lerwick, or at Hay's or at Henderson's shop?- When we get a boll unseparated, as it comes home, it is just the same, so far as I know; but when it is weighed out, 32 lbs. to the quarter boll, we are always under the impression that we lose on weight.
4321. How is that?-I cannot tell how it is.
4322. Why should there be a loss on weight if the meal is weighed out to you?-It is 32 lbs. to the quarter boll there, while in other places it is 35 lbs.
4323. Where is it 35 lbs?-In Lerwick, and, so far as I know, in Messrs. Hay's, at Dunrossness.
4324. Is the statement you are making just now, that you understand you get only 32 lbs. to the quarter boll at Grutness, while at other places you would get 35 lbs. to the quarter boll?- Yes, I make that statement; but I also say that Mr. Irvine said there was a little difference made in the price for that. He said, that when it was summed up, so many lispunds being put into the boll, there was a difference made on the price to cover the difference between 32 and 35 lbs. to the quarter boll; but I never knew what that difference was.
4325. What is the price charged at Grutness for quarter boll of 32 lbs. of meal?-It is not always one price.
4326. What is it just now?-I don't know. I only had one boll last year, and he could not tell me the price of it. I never knew the price of his meal until a neighbour who settled with him before me came back; and then I tried to enter the price of my meal according to what that neighbour said he had paid for it at settlement.
4327. Then, in point of fact, you don't know anything about the price of meal there?-He tells us the price of it when we settle.
4328. But you have had no settlement this year yet?-No.
4329. Had you a settlement last year, in the course of which you became acquainted with the price of meal?-Yes.
4330. Was it charged at the same rate throughout the year previous to your last settlement?-Yes; one year's meal is always one price.
4331. Is there never a variation in the price of meal during the year to which the settlement applies?-Not so far as I have known.
4332. Can you tell the price at which you settled for your meal at last settlement?-I don't remember exactly, but there are men present who can tell that.
4333. Have you got any account of your last settlement?-I have an account, but, not knowing that it would be called for or required, it slipped past me.
4334. Were you not cited to bring all accounts, receipts, and pass-books?-Yes. I made a careful search for that account, but I could not find it. I have some accounts here, but I could never keep an exact account of how I stood with the shop, because I did not know the prices of the goods until the time came for settlement, or until I heard the prices from a neighbour who had been settled with. I then tried to enter the value of my goods, and to post up my account, before I appeared at the settlement; but when an unlearned man like me posts up his account in that way, he has but a poor chance.
4335. But don't you get an account of your dealings at the shop at the time when you are settled with?-We don't get a copy of our shop account.
4336. Do none of the men get a copy of their account at that time?-I cannot speak for others.
4337. Have you never had a pass-book?-No.
4338. Have you never asked for one?-Not so far as I remember.
4339. Then you have perfect reliance on the honesty of those who act for Mr. Bruce in his shop?-Not exactly. I mark down the articles myself which I receive, and I have compared that account with Mr. Bruce to see if the same articles were in his account when we settled. I could not until then, or until I had heard from a neighbour a day or two before what he had paid, enter the value of my articles; but I have compared the articles themselves with him, and found the accounts run pretty straight.
4340. You have some accounts relating to previous years with you? Let me see one of them as a specimen?-[Produces small note-book]
4341. Is this account made up by yourself?-It is account kept for my own satisfaction, to let me know whether there has been anything marked against me which I have not had.
4342. This is only a memorandum: was it taken at the time when the goods were got, or was it written up from memory?-When I came home from his shop to my own house, after I had received the goods, I marked them down. I had not the book with me when I received the goods from him; but I generally mark my account after I come home, or a little time after I get to my own house. But I do not receive any copy of an account from him of his own handiwork.