4343. Then that memorandum is merely a private note of your own, made as you got the articles?-Yes.
4344. It does not contain the prices?-No; I did not know the prices when I made those entries. I put the prices against some of them when I settled, and some of them by learning the prices from neighbours when they settled, while for some articles they told me the prices when I got them.
4345. Did you find that the quantities marked in [Page 108] your private memorandum were the same as those charged against you at the shop?-Pretty nearly. There was no difference worth mentioning.
4346. What opportunity had you of comparing them? Was the account at the shop read over to you, or did you read it yourself?- I read over what I had marked down, and he saw if it was the same as what he had. When I come in to settle, Mr. Irvine asks me, 'Have you an account, William?'-I say, 'Yes,' and he says, 'Will you read it over?'-I have asked him to read the account which was in his book, but he told me to read mine. When I read my account, he says, 'Yes, yes, yes,' checking off the articles as I mention them. The last time I read over my account in this way, there was one peck of meal entered against me which was not in my own. I said I would not swear I was right, and he said he would not swear he was right.
4347. In what way are you dissatisfied with the meal which you get at Grutness?-It is 3s. a boll dearer than we can get it elsewhere, because I have compared one year's account, which I have in this memorandum-book, with the market price in Lerwick, and I find that I am inside the limits of difference when I say that it is 3s. a boll dearer at least.
4348. I see that this memorandum-book of yours contains an account for several years back?-Yes.
4349. You get the prices for the goods at the time of settlement, and mark them in your memorandum-book at the time?-Yes; or from a neighbour who had settled before me, and who knew the price of his meal.
4350. Were the whole of these entries in your memorandum-book made about the time of settlement when the thing was fresh in your memory?-Yes, I could not have made them before because I did not know the prices until then.
4351. But it was done at the time or shortly thereafter, when you remembered the prices which were charged against you at settlement?-Yes.
4352. For what year is this account [showing]?-I think for 1869.
4353. The goods were supplied in 1868 and settled for in 1869?- Yes; about February or March 1869. I cannot say to a month.
4354. And you have compared the note of prices there with the prices in the books of a merchant in Lerwick for the same time?- Yes; at least he said his books were for the same time. I looked at my book and he looked in his, and he told me what the difference was. The merchant was Mr. John Leslie, Lerwick.
4355. Was it only meal that you compared in that way?-Nothing else. I am not sure of the barley meal; but I compared the oatmeal with him.
4356. I see from the book that during that year you got 61/2 lispunds of oatmeal which are all charged at 7s. a lispund?-Yes.
4357. When did you make your comparison with Mr. Leslie?- Last night.
4358. Is there any other article you get at the store which you think could be got cheaper elsewhere?-Yes; but I could not prove these things so distinctly, as I have not compared them.
4359. What articles are there that you have that belief about?- Mostly everything.
4360. In the obligation which you understand you are under to deliver your fish to Mr. Bruce, are your sons and the other members of your family included?-If they fish while living on his property, they must fish to him.
4361. Have you known any cases of tenants being challenged because their sons sold their fish to other parties than Mr. Bruce?-There are no cases of that kind which I can distinctly bring before you.
4362. Is there anything else you wish to state with regard to the way in which matters are conducted in the fishing trade?-No; but if I have liberty here to say anything in regard to Mr. Bruce himself, I should like to be allowed to say a word. Mr. Bruce has dealt with me and many other fishermen in a most honourable and gentlemanly way. He has helped us when could not help ourselves: whether he was in the knowledge that he would profit by it or not, is not for me to say; but he has often helped us when we required it.
4363. Do you think that under the present system of dealing you have the advantage in a bad season?-I believe we have in a very bad season.
4364. If you were not obliged to deliver your fish to the landlord, I suppose he in turn would not be so ready to advance you supplies from his store when you require them and are not able to pay for them?-We believe so.
4365. Is it common for fishermen in that district to be considerably in debt at the store after a bad season?-Yes, after a bad season.
4366. Do you generally get a balance in cash at settlement time, or is it often the case that by that time you have got the whole value of your fish paid to you in goods?-Some men have usually a good bit of money to take, while others have not much, just as they have had accounts at the shop, or have had money of their own with which they could purchase goods elsewhere. Some of them may have almost the whole value of their fishing to take in cash at settlement, while others who have families to provide for, and little land, and lean crops, have often very little to get, and are very often in the landlord's debt. However, in an ordinary year, they are not back much. At the present time, so far as I know, the bulk of the men are clear, and most of them, I believe, would have money to get.
4367. Are your boys obliged to act as beach boys to Mr. Bruce's curers?-Yes.
4368. Is that part of the obligation under which you hold your land?-I did not know that by experience until last year.
4369. How did you know it then?-My boy had the offer of a certain sum to work to another man; and when I told Mr. Irvine and Mr. Bruce, they were very angry that I should have done such a thing. Therefore, for fear I should be turned off, I did not allow my boy to take the wages which he had been offered, but kept him at home, and told Mr. Irvine and Mr. Bruce that I would keep him. I said I know I must be obedient, and my boy will work for you if you want him.
4370. Where did that conversation take place between you and Mr. Bruce and Mr. Irvine?-In Mr. Bruce's office,-the month or the day of the month I cannot state.
4371. Were you sent for, or were you there to settle?-It was before we settled,-perhaps in January.
4372. Were you sent for about it?-No; I wished to know if my boy should take the wages that he had been offered.
4373. Why did you wish to know that?-Because I did not expect they would give me the same amount of wages if he acted as a beach boy. At the same time, they do not pay the boys ill; they pay them tolerably well.
4374. But why did you go to see them? Had you been told before that your boy ought not to engage except to them?-I had known that.
4375. How did you know it?-It is publicly known that the proprietor will want the boys of the tenantry to work for him.
4376. Had your boy been engaged before then?-He had wrought as a beach boy the previous year.
4377. By whom had he been offered a higher wage in that month of January?-By Messrs. Hay's man at Dunrossness.
4378. What was he to work at?-He was to work among the fish at the livers or oil, as a beach boy to Messrs. Hay.
4379. What wages was he offered for that?-10s. for the season.
4380. When you got that offer, did you go to Mr. Bruce's office to see about it?-Not immediately; it was a while after.
4381. Had you any communication from Mr. Bruce or Mr. Irvine which led you to go to them about it?-No; but I knew that I was not safe to let him go to Messrs. Hay without telling them about it. The reason why I knew that was, because there had been a boy agreed by a man I was fishing with to go to the [Page 109] fishing, but the boy was kept back from the fishing, and the man had to look out for another boy. We had two boys and two of ourselves to make up our boat's crew; and the boy that my fellow-fisherman told me he had agreed with was kept back, and he had to go and search the parish for another to fill his place.
4382. Are cases of that kind common in the district?-Not very common, but they do happen sometimes.
4383. When you went to Mr. Bruce about that matter, did you tell him your boy had received an offer from Messrs. Hay & Co?- Yes.
4384. What was said to you?-I am scarcely prepared to state in public what was said to me.
4385. You are bound to state the truth.-I don't mind stating the truth; and if I have to go for the truth, let me go. Mr. Bruce said he did not believe that my boy had got that offer, and he was somewhat angry. I dreaded the consequences, because I might have no shelter if I went contradictory to his will, and I did not know where to go if I should be turned off.
4386. But Mr. Bruce only said he did not believe you: that was all he said?-Yes.
4387. How did he show his anger?-I saw it in his face, and I knew it by his voice and tone.
4388. Did he say anything to you about the boy?-He just said in an angry tone what I have stated. He said he did not believe he had got any such offer, and that it was all a fiction to pull money out of him.
4389. Did he say that you should not allow your boy to go?-No, he did not say that.
4390. What else did he say?-I remember nothing more that I could state.
4391. What was the end of it?-I told him I would not allow my boy to work to another man, but that while I was a tenant I had to be obedient, and I was determined to be obedient. There was no use for being troublesome and disobedient if I wished to remain a tenant, and I did not allow my boy to go until I settled. I then asked them calmly if they wanted my boy. Mr. Irvine said 'Have you not agreed your boy to another party?' I said, 'No; I have kept my word that he should not work for any other man if you required him, seeing I am a tenant.' They then agreed my boy, and he worked for Mr. Bruce that year.
4392. What wages did he get?-He has not been settled with yet. I said it was perhaps better for them to state a certain wage for him; and Mr. Bruce said that he would not have less than £3, but he did not say how much more.
4393. When a boy acts as a beach boy in that way, how are his wages paid?-Generally the boy's wages are fixed before he begins to work, but Mr. Bruce does not fix their wages until they have wrought for a season. Then the factor sees how they have wrought, and what he thinks they are worth. That, I know, has been done.
4394. But how are they paid? Is it in goods or in money?-If they don't take goods from the shop, they are paid in money at settlement.
4395. They can either take goods in their own names at the shop, or they can be paid in money at the settling time?-Yes.
4396. Is it usually the case that a separate account is opened in name of a beach boy?-Yes.
4397. What is the usual age of a beach boy?-From 12 to 14 or 15, and so on.
4398. Do you know whether, at the time of settlement, a boy has usually any balance to receive in cash?-I should think that in general they have something.4399. But is it not the practice that an account is run, and the greater part of the wages is really settled for in goods?-I could not state that exactly; because my own boy wrought to them, and he had next to nothing from them. He received his wages in money at the settlement without a grumble and without a gloom.
4400. Had he no account at all?-I think he had a pocket knife.
4401. Are the wages of a beach boy generally handed over to his parents?-So far as I know, that depends partly on the boy. Generally his wages do very little more than purchase clothes for him, and anything else he may require.
4402. Then generally the balance against him will amount to nearly the whole amount of his wages, and there will be little to get out?-I should think so; but I cannot speak positively on that point.
4403. You do not know that from your own experience?-No.
4404. Is it usual for beach boys to have got more goods supplied to them during the season than the amount of their wages at settlement?-I can say nothing about that.
4405. Have you had anything to do with taking whales on the coast?-Yes, with driving whales ashore.
4406. Have the fishermen in your quarter anything to complain of about that?-When we get the whales flinched, and the blubber brought up above high water mark, it is sold, and the third part of the money is taken by the proprietor.
4407. Do you think the fishermen are entitled to get the whole?- We think so.
4408. Who sells the oil?-There is a note sent up to Lerwick to publish the sale. An auctioneer comes down and it is generally sold on the spot, and the third part of the money is deducted.
4409. Who receives the money in the first instance? Is it the auctioneer?-I don't know; but I should say it is the landlord.
4410. He accounts to the fishermen who are interested for their share of the proceeds?-Yes.
4411. Is there any obligation to spend the money you get on these occasions in the landlord's store?-No.
4412. You can do as you like with it?-Yes.
4413. Is there anything else you have got to say?-We all believe, so far as I am aware, that liberty alone will never remedy our case. Even suppose we had liberty, yet if we have no lease of our land, the landlord can do with the land as he pleases, and render our case worse than before.
4414. Then it is a lease that you want?-Yes, a lease of a proper kind; but if the land rent can be raised to any figure the landlord thinks proper, what can a lease do for us, or what can liberty do for us. It cannot remedy our case.
4415. Then what you want is, that the landlord may be prevented from raising his rent, and from turning you out of your farms?- From raising it above measure, or above its real value. Another thing is, that I can be turned out of my land at forty days warning, after I have prepared it for winter.
4416. If you make a bargain for a lease for a certain number of years, as they do in Scotland, then you could not be turned out until that lease expired?-That is what we need, and the land let at a reasonable figure.
4417. But that must depend upon the terms of your own contract?-That may be; but the landlord sees plainly that he may not have the power of the fishing; and if he has full power to rent the land as he pleases, and can lay on the land what should come from the fishing, then that would render our case more desperate still.
4418. Do you mean that you have to pay part of your land rent from the fishing?-Our rents depend solely on the fishing. Some men may have a cow or a horse to sell, to help them to pay their rent; while there may be ten who would have nothing of the kind to sell, except their fish. On Mr. Bruce's property, so far as I am aware, the bulk of the tenants have to pay their rents from their fishing.
4419. Do you mean that your farm does not pay its own rent from the crops which it yields?-Yes; we cannot afford to sell any crop with which to pay our rent. If we were to sell the crop for that purpose, we would be deprived of what we have to live upon. The farms are very small, and we require the whole of the crops for our own use. In some years they have not been sufficient to keep us for half the year.
4420. Then the state of matters is, that you live principally by your fishing, and that your farm is an extra source of employment, or an extra means of [Page 110] living for part of the year?-Yes; some years, when there has been a good crop, it may serve us almost or altogether for the whole of the year; then the fishing pays the rent, and we may have some balance over to help us otherwise. In a poor year I have had experience of it, when our crops could only serve us for six months, and then we had to buy meal for the other six months. In that case the fishing had to do the best it could to pay both the land rent and the meal.
4421. Then your difficulty is, that you are both fishermen and farmers?-Yes; if the land was let at its real value, at what it was actually worth, and we had a lease of it, and were allowed at the same time to make the best of our fishing, we all believe that our circumstances would be improved.
4422. Suppose that were the case, there would then be no obligation upon you to deal at any shop, but you could go where you liked for your goods?-Yes; and we could make the best of our fishing at the same time.
4423. You could sell your fish to whom you pleased, making your own price?-Yes.
4424. Would it be any advantage to you to cure your own fish?- We believe it would; and we know it, because there are some of our neighbours who do it. There are people here who can speak to that.
4425. Don't you think the curing is better done when it is done upon a large scale, than when a fisherman cures his own fish upon the beach, with insufficient materials and apparatus, and perhaps not with the same skill as people who are engaged in doing that and nothing else?-With regard to the skill, none of them can show us how to cure fish better than we could do ourselves.
4426. None of whom?-None of those who now cure them, and who have the large fishings. We know how to cure them as well as they do. We see how they are curing them now, and many of us have cured fish before, so that we know quite well about it.
4427. Do you get as good a price for your fish when you cure them yourselves as when they are cured by fish-curers?-We have not had a chance to cure them ourselves.
4428. But you say you know about it by experience?-Yes. There are neighbours curing their own fish near where I live. Laurence Shewan is one.
4429. Is he a fisherman like yourself?-Yes.
4430. Does he cure his own fish?-Yes.
4431. How long has he done so?-I never remember him doing anything else. There are others who cure them besides him.
4432. Is he better off than his neighbours, in consequence of having liberty to cure his own fish?-There are other circumstances as well which doubtless render him better off, but that must improve his circumstances too.
4433. Where does he live?-At Gord. John Shewan, Scatness, also cures his own fish himself. Laurence Shewan's fish were purchased this year by Mr. Gilbert Irvine, and put into Mr. Bruce's store; and I heard Mr. Irvine say that they were very good fish.
4434. Have you ever compared with any of your neighbours their profits by curing their own fish with you own takings by selling your fish green?-I have not; but there are other witnesses present who have done so.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, LAURENCE SMITH, examined.
4435. Are you a fisherman at Trosswick, and a tenant of land under Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes.
4436. How far is Trosswick from Toab, where William Goudie lives?-It is between two and three miles farther north.
4437. Have you heard the evidence which Goudie has given?- Yes. It is all correct, so far as I know.
4438. You have heard his description of the way in which the fish are delivered, and the way in which you hold your land, and the way in which you purchase goods at the shop at Dunrossness, and settle for them. Is that all correct?-It is.
4439. You deal in the same way with Mr. Bruce and his shopkeeper?-Yes. I have very little concern with the store at Grutness, because Mr. Bruce has another store at the place where I deliver my fish, which is called Voe.
4440. What is the shopkeeper's name there?-Henry Isbister.
4441. Is that shop near Boddam?-Yes, it is just at Boddam.
4442. Is that store managed in much the same way Goudie has described with regard to the store at Grutness?-No, not exactly in the same way. Most of the things which are kept there are much the same as in other places.
4443. Do you mean that the quality of the goods is the same?- Yes, it is much the same as elsewhere.
4444. And you don't complain of the prices there?-No, not of the things that I deal in myself.
4445. What are these-meal and tea?-No; I deal very little in these things there, because it has pleased God that I could mend myself in another way.
4446. In what way?-By going to another store.
4447. Then you are not obliged to deal with that store at all?-No, I am not obliged to go to that store unless I like.
4448. Is that because you have ready money with which to buy at another store?-Exactly.
4449. You have always got some money in your hands?-Yes.
4450. Do you sometimes buy in Lerwick?-Yes.
4451. But you also buy at Mr. Bruce's store at Voe?-Yes; some trifling things, such as rope or iron hoop, or the like of that; and these are sold at much the same prices there as I can get them for at other places.
4452. Do you pay for them in ready money?-No.
4453. They are put into your account and settled for at the end of the year?-Yes.
4454. Where do you get your provisions?-I get them sometimes at Gavin Henderson's, and sometimes at Lerwick.
4455. What do you pay for meal by the boll at Henderson's?-I could not exactly say, because I don't have to run an account for that. Generally I pay for it at once.
4456. Then, at settling time with Mr Bruce, do you generally get a large balance in cash?-Whether it is large or small, I get it in cash at the beginning of the year, at the settling time.
4457. Do you sometimes get advances in the course of the year while the fishing is going on?-Sometimes I do, if I require them.
4458. Have you often asked for advances of that kind?-I have.
4459. Have they ever been refused?-Never. I always got them when I had money coming to me.
4460. Do you mean that you always got them when he was due you money?-Yes. Sometimes, even if he had been due me a little money, he might not perhaps have had money beside him to supply me with; but when he had it I always got it, whether I had it to get or not.
4461. What has been the amount of money due to you for fish during the last two or three years?-I have a few receipts here which will show that. [Produces accounts.]
4462. This account [showing] is for 1870; and it contains rent, £6; roads, 4s. 6d.; poor-rate, 9s.: is that the tenant's half?-Yes.
4463. Then there is a charge, 'To share of rent of hill:' is that the scattald which you hold along with your neighbours?-Yes; and which the neighbouring landlord is not taking a rent for at all. It all runs scattald together.
4464. Is the neighbouring landlord Mr. Bruce of Simbister?-Yes.
4465. On his land, does the rent of the scattald come [Page 111] into the rent of the farms?-There is no rent paid for the scattald at all on his land. It is used in the same way by all the tenants.
4466. When was the additional payment charged against you first for scattald?-Two years ago.
4467. Then there is cash for kirk seats, 3s.: why do you pay your kirk seats through your landlord?-I have paid them all along through him.
4468. Then there is-To account in Boddam shop, 18s. 61/2d.; to account in Grutness shop, 1s. 9d.; and then on April 25, by cash, £6, 14s. 7d.: that shows that you had not settled until April 25th?- Yes.
4469. Are you often as late as that in settling?-No; that was the latest I ever knew.
4470. Was it your fault that the settlement was so late?-No; I should have liked to have settled sooner.
4471. Do you know any reason why you could not have settled sooner, even in November, when the fishing was over?-I don't know any reason for that, except that they did not want to do it. That is the only way in which I can account for it.
4472. Have you asked for a settlement to be made with you at that time?-I have not; because I thought there was no use doing it.
4473. There are entries here-by saith, by ling, by cod: were these for small fish caught during the winter?-There was a company of men who were pursuing the herring fishing; one part of the company were trying to prosecute the saith fishing for a time, until the others saw whether there were any herring to be got, and my proportion was one-twelfth share of the fish caught at the time.
4474. That was an extra thing altogether?-Yes; and each man's proportion was put in his account.
4475. Is the amount of cash paid you, £6, 14s. 7d., a usual sort of sum for you to get at settlement?-No; it is sometimes smaller. Sometimes it is nothing at all, and I have been in debt.
4476. Has that happened often?-Yes, it happened frequently for some years before that. I have no accounts for these years.
4477. I see that in 1865 there is marked a balance of £2, 1s. 5d. Was that a balance which was due by you the year before?-Yes.
4478. Then 1864 had been a bad year, and Mr. Bruce had advanced you money above the price of your fish for that year?- Yes.
4479. Was that money advanced to you after settlement?-No; it was a balance that had been carried over some years before.
4480. When that balance was existing, did you consider yourself obliged to deal in Mr. Bruce's shop rather than at another?-I was obliged so far to deal at his shop, because I could not think of going to another man and asking credit from him, when I saw no way of making provision to pay him. I could not expect any man to supply me in my necessity when I had no possible way of repaying him.
4481. But you were already in Mr. Bruce's debt?-Yes, at that time I was.
4482. Would you have been bound by that, supposing you had not been bound by the terms on which you held your land, to deliver your fish to Mr. Bruce, and to deal at his store?-No, I don't believe I would, if I had been at liberty to deal elsewhere at any other time.
4483. Have you ever paid any fines or liberty money for yourself or for any of your family?-None whatever.
4484. Have you understood that you were liable to pay such fines?-I understood that I was liable to pay a fine or to receive a warning if I did not fish for my landlord.
4485. But would you have been liable to pay anything besides being afraid of being removed?-I don't know anything about that.
4486. In 1865 you had got cash advances to the amount of £10, 7s. 2d., and your account at Mr. Bruce's store that year was only about 30s?-Yes.
4487. I suppose in that state of matters, you are pretty well content with the state of things as they are?-I might be well enough content with the state of things as they are, only I am bound to fish for him alone, and for no other man.
4488. But you are not bound to deal at his store?-No; I don't believe he compels any man to be bound to his store entirely.
4489. Is there really any compulsion, either direct or indirect, to deal at his store?-No; not so far as I know.
4490. Even although you are in his debt, you are not bound to deal at his store?-No; I don't believe he would oblige me to do that.
4491. But you have as much credit to deal at another man's store as at his,-I mean you get an account opened as readily at another man's store as at Mr. Bruce's?-Yes.
4492. When you are in debt to Mr. Bruce, is it as easy for you to open an account at Mr. Henderson's store, and to get goods on credit there, as to get goods Mr. Bruce's shop?-I might find it as easy, only I don't know whether Mr. Henderson would be inclined to give it to me.
4493. Do you think Mr. Henderson would not be as willing to give it to you as Mr. Bruce's man at Voe?-I think he would not, if he saw no way by which I was likely to pay him.
4494. Mr. Henderson, I understand, does not buy fish?-He does.
4495. But he knows that you would not be at liberty to sell your fish to him?-Yes, he knows that.
4496. Do you think you would get a better price for your fish if you were selling them to him?-I don't believe I would get any worse.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY GILBERTSON, examined.
4497. You are a fisherman at Dunrossness?-I am.
4498. Have you a piece of ground of your own?-I am not a landholder. I live with my sister and brother-in-law.
4499. I have received a letter from Dunrossness, dated 30th December and signed Henry Gilbertson: was that letter written by you?-No. There is another person of that name living at Dunrossness.
4500. How do you distinguish yourself from him?-I am a fisherman, and he is a tailor.
4501. Is he a relation of yours?-He is my cousin.
4502. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie to-day: do you know from your own experience that it is in the main correct?-So far as my experience goes, I could not say that he has deviated a single word from the truth.
4503. Were you, when young, employed as a beach boy?-No. I would not go, because if they had bound me to that, I would have left the island, as I did.
4504. Did you leave in order to avoid being employed as a beach boy?-It was not exactly for that; but I was past being a beach boy before Mr. Bruce took the fishing.
4505. You have now come back there, and employ yourself as a fisherman in Mr. Bruce's boats?-Yes.
4506. Are you settled with at the end of the year?-Yes; in the same way as the landholders are settled with.
4507. Do you run an account at the store in the same way, also?- Yes, sometimes; but I am under no obligation to do so, because I am a man who can get credit at any place.
4508. Do you consider yourself at liberty to fish for any person you please to engage with?-Not at all. Although I sit as a lodger in my brother-in-law's house, I am under the same obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce as one who is a landholder.
4509. How is that?-Because if I did not do so, my brother-in-law would be warned out for my offence.
4510. How do you know that?-Because I have evidence to prove it in the case of a brother of my brother-in-law's, who dried a few hundredweight of fish for himself, and for that offence his father was warned out, and had to pay a fine of 31s. 6d. before he got liberty to sit.
[Page 112]
4511. What was his name?-James Harper, sen.
4512. Was that long ago?-Six or seven years ago. I could not say exactly to a season back or forward.
4513. Did you know of that case at the time from Harper himself?-Yes, I was acquainted with the circumstance, and the day before I came here the man told me he had to pay the money.
4514. So that has served you as a warning, since you came back to live with your brother-in-law, that you must fish to Mr. Bruce?- Yes.
4515. Do you think you would be better off if you were at liberty to deliver your fish to any merchant you liked?-I would.
4516. In what way?-Because I could make more of them.
4517. Would you get a larger price for your fish?-Yes. I would perhaps get a larger price; but then I would have a great advantage too by curing them for myself.
4518. Do you think that would really be a great advantage?- Decidedly; and I can prove it by the case of a man who has prosecuted the fishing with me this very season, Laurence Leslie. I was one of the crew with him.
4519. Don't you think he was particularly fortunate last year, and that very often your fish might be spoiled in curing, and would not bring so good a price?-We have all cured our fish before, and we never lost anything worth speaking of in that way.
4520. Where have you cured your fish before?-In the same place where I now live.
4521. Was that before these restrictions were laid upon the tenantry?-Yes; one year before and one year since the restrictions were laid on.
4522. Then you have done it since without being challenged?- Yes; but it was by their own good-will that they allowed me to do it.
4523. You had some favour shown you?-Yes.
4524. How did that happen?-They just told me they would not disturb me, as I was a young man, and could either stop or go as I thought fit.
4525. If you had been a tenant, you think you would not have had the same liberty?-No, I would not.
4526. You say you can get the same credit at any other store that you can get at Mr. Bruce's: do you mean that you can open an account and get your things without paying for them until the end of the season?-Yes.
4527. Can you do so at Gavin Henderson's store, for instance?- Yes; or in Lerwick.
4528. But does the merchant with whom you would open an account of that sort not know that you fish for Mr. Bruce, that you are bound to deliver all your fish to him, and that you may at the same time be running an account at his shop which would have a preference at settlement over any account you might open in Lerwick or at Henderson's?-I generally give them to understand how I am circumstanced, and they advance me accordingly.
4529. Do you generally have a large balance in cash to receive when settling with Mr. Bruce?-I have only prosecuted the fishing there for three years; I have settled for two of these years, and for this one I have not settled yet.
4530. Do you get an account when you settle with him?-Yes; I have got a copy of it for one year. [Produces it.]
4531. Do you get that as a matter of course when you are settling with Mr. Bruce?-I asked for it, and he did not refuse to give it to me.
4532. This account is for the settlement which took place in April last?-Yes.
4533. It shows-June 27, 1870, to cash for self, £1; Sept. 16, to cash for self, £1; Dec. 22, to amount to credit of Paul Smith: what does that mean?-It was a small sum I advanced a brother-in-law of mine to help him to pay his rent. It was entered from my account into his, and was the same as cash.
4534. Jan. 6, to cash for self, 10s.; to fine for swine, 2s. 6d.: what was that fine for?-The landlord has a law that if you allow your swine to go at large, and the officer for that purpose catches them outside your house loose, he imposes a fine of 2s. 6d. upon you for each offence.
4535. Is that law in the regulations of lease, or is it just an understood thing?-It is understood to be a law that he has made.
4536. But you are not a landholder?-No; but the swine belonged to me.
4537. Then there is, to a ticket and medal for 1871, 3s.: that is for the Fishermen's Society?-Yes.
4538. March 15, to account per Henry Gilbertson, 3s. 4d.: what was that?-That was a small balance that was advanced by him for me to the other Henry Gilbertson.
4539. To 11/2 bushels salt from Scatness, 1s. 6d., by amount from boat's account, £19, 4s. 31/2d.: that was the amount of your earnings?-Yes.
4540. How many others were there in the boat?-There were six.
4541. Then, to account in Grutness, £3, 8s. 21/2d., to cash, £10, 15s. 81/2d.; in all £19, 4s. 31/2d.: that was the whole of your account for that year?-Yes.
4542. Have you anything to say about the prices of the things you get at Grutness store?-They are rather above the figure usually paid for the same things in other parts of the country.
4543. Have you compared the prices there with the prices at which you can get the same articles elsewhere?-Yes; for instance of meal.
4544. Have you bought meal there?-Yes.
4545. Was it entered in the account you have shown me?-Yes; but all my account at the shop, whatever it was for, was entered in that account in one slump sum, so that the price cannot be distinguished from that. There are no details given there of the shop account.
4546. Were the details of that account read over to you?-Yes; or I read it over.
4547. Did you find it to be correct?-Yes, generally.
4548. But you think the meal was charged higher than it could be got for elsewhere?-I am sure of it.
4549. Do you remember what price it was charged at?-Yes.
4550. Did you take a note of it at the time?-I took a note of the quantity at the time; but I did not know the price until settlement.
4551. Have you a pass-book at the store?-[Produces pass-book.] That is what I keep for myself. These [showing] are the entries for 1870, the year to which the account applies. When I knew the price of an article when I received it from the store, I put it down in ink; but I did not know the price of the meal, and I put it down in pencil when I came to settle.
4552. Here [showing] is half boll oatmeal, 11s?-Yes; and these are the ranging prices in Lerwick for the same year: March 1870, per boll oatmeal, 17s. 9d. May, 18s. 6d.; July, 20s.; August, 21s.
4553. Where did you get these?-I got them from a merchant in Lerwick this morning, Mr. John Robertson, sen. The note containing them is in his own handwriting.
4554. Did he refer to his books before telling you what the prices were?-Yes, he turned up his accounts for that year.
4555. And these are the prices at which he told you he sold meal here?-Yes.
4556. For cash or for credit?-I cannot say.
4557. Have you ever been directed by Mr. Bruce or Mr. Irvine to look after men who were supposed to be selling their fish to other curers?-I have.
4558. You shake your head in a very serious way at that: did you not like the job?-I did not.
4559. When was it that you were told to do that?-At last settlement.
4560. That would be in April 1870?-Yes.
4561. Were there some men who were supposed to be inclined to sell their fish to some others?-Yes.
4562. Was any particular man named to you, or was it just a general direction to look after them?-There was just a general direction given to us to inform them of any men who did so.
[Page 113]
4563. Did you keep a lookout for that?-No; I have not gone to look yet.
4564. Have you seen any of the men endeavouring to sell their fish to other people-to Messrs. Hay & Co. for instance, or to Mr. Gavin Henderson?-I have seen them selling to Messrs. Hay & Co.
4565. Were these the small fish caught in the winter, or were they part of the catch of the boats that went to the summer fishing and the haaf fishing?-They were the small fish caught in the winter. I never saw any of the summer fish sold by any of Mr. Bruce's tenants to Messrs. Hay & Co.
4566. I suppose there is a greater inclination to sell the small fish caught in the winter for ready money than the summer fish?-Yes.
4567. Why are the men readier to do that?-Because, when they sell their fish to Messrs. Hay & Co., the merchant knows what he intends to give for them; and daily and nightly, when the fish have been delivered, they go to Hay & Co.'s store and get the value for them, and there is no more about it.
4568. They settle for them at once?-Yes,
4569. In money or in goods?-Generally in goods; but Messrs. Hay's man will give them a shilling or so; whereas, if they had to go to Mr. Bruce's store with them, they would not know what they were to get until the settlement, neither would they get the goods at so low a figure.
4570. They get the goods cheaper at Hay & Co.'s?-Yes, a little.
4571. Is there any other article than meal the price of which you have compared with what it could be got for at other stores?-Not particularly, because I have not had much dealings at the store, as I generally dealt with other merchants.
4572. Is there anything else you wish to add to what you have said or to what the other men have said?-Nothing particular.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JOHN HARPER, examined.
4573. Are you a fisherman at Lingord, Dunrossness?-I am.
4574. Do you hold land there under Mr Bruce of Sumburgh?- Yes.
4575. Do you hold it subject to the condition of delivering your fish to Mr. Bruce in the same way that the other men have spoken to?-Yes.
4576. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie, Laurence Smith, and Henry Gilbertson?-Yes.
4577. Have they described correctly the way in which you deal at Mr. Bruce's shop for goods?-Quite correctly, so far as my experience goes.
4578. Do you deal in the same way?-Yes; but I deal very little there.
4579. Where do you get your goods?-I get them at different places, but my chief dealings are at Gavin Henderson's. I have also some dealings at Mr. Bruce's store at Boddam, kept by Henry Isbister, which is close beside where I live.
4580. Do you generally receive a large balance at the end of the year in cash?-Yes, I am always paid in cash.
4581. How much of a balance in cash did you get last year?-I cannot remember exactly; and I have no copy of my account.
4582. Was it £5 or £6, or more?-I think it was £5 or £6, and the rest of my earnings went to pay my land rent and shop accounts.
4583. Have you made any comparison as to the prices of goods at the Boddam shop and the prices at which you could get them elsewhere?-I have not made a strict comparison, but the Boddam shop and the other shops do not differ much in most things.
4584. Have you anything to add to what has been said by the other witnesses?-We would be very happy to have the liberty of curing our fish ourselves.
4585. Have you tried that?-Yes; I have tried it in former times before I was taken under Mr. Bruce.
4586. Where was that?-At the same place where I am fishing yet.
4587. You had your liberty then?-Yes.
4588. Do you think that in those days you made a larger profit on your fish than you do now?-I did; but there would be a difficulty in doing that now, unless we had the power of using the beaches to dry our fish on. If we did not have that power, we could make nothing of it at all
4589. In those days the price of fish would be quite different from what it is now? It would be much lower when you used to cure your own fish?-In the former part of the time when I used to cure them it was lower than it is now, and indeed it was rather lower all through. I don't know exactly what those that cured their own fish this year have got for dried fish, but I think I got 10s. 6d. per cwt. of dried saith of my own curing during the last year when I cured them.
4590. What is the price now for cured fish?-I have heard that it is 12s.
4591. I suppose there was not much difference in those days in the price of cured fish?-No; but it did differ according to seasons. Every season was not exactly alike.
4592. Would that be twelve years ago?-Yes.
4593. In what way have you calculated that you would make more profit upon the fish of your own curing than is paid to you by Mr. Bruce?-I have just made a calculation in my own mind according to the quantity of fish I caught then and what I catch now. It is merely a calculation of my own, and I do not say it is exactly correct.
4594. Did you make that calculation lately?-No; only I have always been of that opinion since I was obliged to deliver my fish to Mr. Bruce.
4595. Have you not made a note of the value of your green fish, the expense of materials for curing, and the value of the labour that you would require to put upon them, in order to ascertain whether you would get as much for your cured fish as you do for your green, or more?-I have paid some attention to that matter; but of course, in any case where a man dries his fish for himself, he must expect to have a little more work than he has when delivering them green. There would thus be extra expense for my own labour.
4596. There would also be the price for salt, and other things required, in the curing?-Yes; we would have to calculate all these things.
4597. Would you not be at a disadvantage from not having vats and other apparatus suitable for curing?-There would be rather a disadvantage in that way now, but there was not such a disadvantage formerly, because we had these things; and when we were stopped from curing for ourselves, we had to dispose of them as we had no use for them.
4598. Did each fisherman commonly possess these things?-Yes, at that time.
4599. Or was it each boat's crew who owned these implements?- Yes.
4600. Each boat's crew had a supply of apparatus for curing their fishing?-Yes, for their own use. They generally had a vat and other instruments according to what they required.
4601. Do you think they were as skilful in the use of these instruments as the curers are now?-I don't think they were very much behind, because the curer who cures the fish we catch now was formerly a fisherman, as I am myself. Further than the experience of years may have taught him, he knew nothing better about it than I did, for I cured fish when I was a beach boy, and I was also the head in it all through, until I was stopped from curing.
4602. In forming that opinion with regard to the profit which you would have by curing your own fish, have you taken into account the risk of having your own fish spoiled in the curing?-Of course we must run that risk.
4603. Then you might gain something in one year, but in another you might lose to some extent in the [Page 114] curing?-That is quite possible; but still, in the experience I formerly had, the loss was nothing to speak of.
4604. For how many years did you cure your own fish?-For a good many, perhaps five years. There is one thing I should like to state which has not been mentioned already; but I don't exactly know how far it will fall within your inquiry. That is about the days' works which are required from us in addition to our land rent.
4605. What do you mean by days' works?-It is labour imposed
upon the tenants by the landlord. They must work three days'
work in summer. We don't exactly work these days' works in
summer where we live; but we are bound to carry a boat of peats
to those who live near Sumburgh, which stands in place of our
three days in summer. Then we have to work three days in
harvest, and three days in vore (
4606. Is not that really part of the rent which you pay for your land?-We don't suppose so, because our land is valued, and we have to pay for it in cash, or it is taken off our account.
4607. You mean that you have to pay your rent in cash, and to give the days' works besides?-Yes; and we have to pay a poultry fowl for each merk of land.
4608. Is not that really just part of your bargain for the land?-It is the way we have done hitherto.
4609. If you were agreed, would not the landlord commute these services and payments into a money payment. You might make a bargain to give him so much money, and thus get rid of these things?-I have never disputed these things; but I believe they have been spoken of to him, and he does not appear willing to relieve us of the burden, which we think is rather hard one.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, GEORGE LESLIE, examined.
4610. Are you a fisherman and tenant under Mr. Bruce at Mill of Garth, Dunrossness?-I am a fisherman, but not exactly a tenant.
4611. You don't hold land?-It is much the same. The land is held in my father's name, and I live with him.
4612. Are you bound to fish to Mr. Bruce, as being one of your father's family?-Yes.
4613. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie and the other witnesses from Dunrossness. Do you think it is generally correct?-I think it is generally correct; but Laurence Smith did not appear to know much about the shop at Boddam, except for ropes and iron, and so on, which is much about the same price as elsewhere.
4614. Can you say anything more about that shop than he did?- The tea, cotton, canvas, and moleskins are all much higher there than at Henderson's. I have no note of the price at Henderson's; but I have notes of the prices at Boddam in my pass-books.
4615. What is the price of moleskins at the Boddam shop?-I don't know if I have the price of any moleskins here.
4616. Is this [showing] your pass-book at the Boddam store?- Yes.
4617. Is it kept by the shopkeeper there?-It is kept by Isbister. I took it back and forward every time I got goods, and had them entered there. That book is for 1868.
4618. I see it is for Hans Leslie, and not for George Leslie. Is your father's name Hans?-Yes.
4619. This book only comes down to February 1869. Have you not kept a pass-book since then?-Yes; but it is not settled yet.
4620. Is that account from March 1867 to February 1869 [showing] not settled?-Yes, it is settled; but the account for 1870 is not settled yet. I have it in another pass-book, because this one had fallen aside.
4621. And you have now another one in the hands of the shopkeeper?-Yes.
4622. Do you know the prices which were charged against you for goods in 1870?-No. I have seen them in the pass-book when I had it at home; but don't remember what they were.
4623. But the settlement for 1870 is past?-Yes; it was 1871 I was thinking of.
4624. But there is nothing in this book for 1870?-No. This [producing another book] is the book for 1870 up till the settlement of 1871.
4625. Have you no pass-book in your possession later than that?- No.
4626. Show me some of the things in that book which are charged higher to you than you could have got them elsewhere?-I say that tea and cotton are generally charged higher. I have had very little cotton from that shop, but I have asked the prices, and found them much higher than at Henderson's, so that I took what cotton I wanted from Henderson's shop, and not from the shop at Boddam.
4627. Were you quite at liberty to deal at Henderson's shop if you liked?-Yes; we were at liberty in the way that some of the other men have described. If we did not have the prospect of paying what we were due, then we did not want to run into debt to a number of men.
4628. Have you generally ready money that you can go to Henderson's with?-No.
4629. What is the reason of that? Is it on account of the long settlement?-That is a thing which has something to do with it, and sometimes I have not had money to get at settlement; but when I asked for an advance from Mr. Bruce, I always got it.
4630. I see from this book that cotton is 1s. a yard at the Boddam shop: I suppose that was the price then?-It has sometimes been 1s., and it has sometimes been higher.
4631. I see there is tea at 10d. a quarter: is that the best tea they sell at that store?-They seldom have any but one sort.
4632. Do you generally get all the articles you want at the Boddam shop?-Yes.
4633. Would you like to have a greater number of things to choose from than there are there?-No. We do not take anything there except what we cannot do without. We wish rather to take it at another place.
4634. Only you cannot always get credit at another place?-I never was refused credit, only I did not like to run a heavy account with another man who was having no profit but upon his goods.
4635. Would you have been more ready to deal with Henderson if you had been at liberty to sell your fish to him too?-Yes.
4636. Is there a fair price charged for soap at the Boddam shop?- There is not very much difference of price upon it. The soap generally is pretty fair at Boddam.
4637. I see here an entry of 11/2 lines, 3s. 5d.: are these lines for your fishings?-Yes.
4638. Is the price of lines there as moderate as at other places?- The lines differ in quality. Sometimes we have them as good there as in other places, and at other times not so good.
4639. But what about the price of them? Are they as cheap there as at other places?-If the quality is as good, they are. [Produces another pass-book.]
4640. Is this the book in which you enter the fish as they are delivered?-Yes.
4641. Who enters them there?-Myself. It is example of how we mark down the fish. That book contained an account which I had running with Gavin Henderson in 1867, and I afterwards used it as a fish book with Mr. Bruce.
4642. You enter the fish in this book, and Mr. Bruce's factor enters them in a book of his own besides?-Yes.
4643. Do all the boats' crews keep books in which they enter their fish in the same way?-So far as I know they do.
[Page 115]
4644. Is that the only way you have of checking the amount of fish you get?-Yes.
4645. At the end of the year you see the quantity you have delivered as it is entered in the landlord's book, and you see that you get credit for it in your account with Mr. Bruce?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, ROBERT HALCROW, examined.
4646. You are a fisherman at Lasettar, in Dunrossness, and you hold land from Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes.
4647. You are bound to deliver your fish to his factor, and you settle at the end of the year in the same way as William Goudie and the other men have described?-Yes.
4648. You have heard all their evidence?-Yes.
4649. Is there anything you wish to add to it or correct in it?- Nothing.
4650. Do you know anything about the knitting which is done by the women in Dunrossness?-There is a little knitting done in my family. It might be more agreeable to some people to be paid in cash than in goods; but others again say that if they did not get the same price in cash for their hosiery as they get in truck, they would not be gainers.
4651. Do they want the goods they get for the hosiery?-Yes; and they might not get the same price for their knitting in money as they get for it in barter.
4652. Do you know the price which they get in goods from the merchants in Lerwick?-Yes.
4653. Would they not get the same goods at a lower price in money, at any of the shops in your neighbourhood?-I am not aware of that.
4654. You have never heard them say that?-No. With regard to the evidence which has been given by the other men, I may be allowed to say that perhaps I have had a little more experience than some of them, but the statements which they have given have just been what I would have made myself.
4655. How long have you been on the property?-For eleven or twelve years.
4656. Did you receive a notice, when young Mr. Bruce became tacksman, that you were expected to fish for him?-I did not receive any notice; but I was missed; he passed over me.
4657. Why was that?-I was taking in uncultivated ground to build a house upon, and I did not pay rent then.
4658. Were you aware that a notice of that kind was given to the tenants?-Yes.
4659. Is there any one here who received that notice?-I don't think any one received the notice individually, but there was a public notice that they were bound to fish for Mr. Bruce, and that they would be removed if they did not do so.
4660. How was that notice given?-By a bill placed in a public place for the tenants at large to see.
4661. Did you see it?-No, I did not see it. With regard to theBoddam shop, I have had dealings there, and also with GavinHenderson; but there are things I require which are not kept in theBoddam shop at all.
4662. What articles do you want that you cannot get there?-I want some kind of clothing which they do not keep, and several other things; but the things they have, such as tea, tobacco, cotton and canvas, I find to be somewhat dearer than at Mr. Henderson's or in Lerwick.
4663. How much dearer is the tobacco?-It will be a penny or twopence a quarter lb.
4664. Have you bought tobacco at both places?-Yes.
4665. What have you to say with regard to the tea?-It is from 4d. to 8d. dearer per pound.
4666. Have you tried it at both places also?-Yes.
4667. Do you think you get the same quality at both?-It is the same quality. I have had to pay sometimes 9d. and sometimes 10d. per quarter for tea at the Boddam shop; and when I went to Mr. Henderson's shop, I got the same tea for 8d.
4668. So far as you could judge, was the tea at both places of the same quality?-Yes, so far as I could judge, it was. Then for the cotton I would pay 2d., and sometimes more than that, per yard more in the Boddam shop than in Gavin Henderson's, or at other places.
4669. But if the prices are so much higher at the Boddam shop than elsewhere, why do you go there when you say you are not obliged in any way to take goods from the Boddam shop? Why do you not go to Gavin Henderson's for them?-I am obliged to go to the Boddam shop and take my goods there if I have no money in my pocket to buy them elsewhere.
4670. Does that often happen?-Perhaps not very often with me, but it happens as a general thing among many of the men. I believe there are as many men who have to go to Mr. Bruce's store, and take their goods there, in consequence of the want of money to pay for them at other places, as there are who can go and open accounts with other merchants and pay them yearly.
4671. Is there anything else you can say about that?-There is nothing more concerning that; but I have one thing more to say concerning our bondage, or our liberty, in fishing to Mr. Bruce. I have never had any help in paying rent or purchasing meal for my living, or such things as I required for clothing, except from what I could earn myself. I have sometimes had little clear money to get, and sometimes I have been from £2 to £6 behind in my accounts with Mr. Bruce, but he never charged me anything for that. I was fishing to him, and obedient to him, and he never interfered with me until my earnings paid up my debt account; but he would give me supplies although was in his debt, and if I got money from him, even when I was in his debt, I was at perfect liberty to go where I liked for the goods I wanted. If I ran up an account at any other shop, he gave me money and I settled it; and then at settlement time, if I had any money remaining to come to me, I got it in cash after he had deducted the value of any goods I might have got from his store.
4672. But when you were in his debt at the end of the year, in the way you have stated, were you obliged to go to his store for your provisions, and your supplies of cotton and clothing?-I would be obliged to do so, unless I could work at any other trade, or do any other thing during the winter by which I could earn money to purchase things at other stores. I may work outside, or do a little mason work, in order to get some money; and he will not bind me so much as if he were to see me earning nothing, but he would allow me to keep that money, and go to other stores with it, and purchase what I required. If I have a cow or a horse to sell, I can sell it, and he will never inquire or push me for the balance. I can get my money for it, and go to other stores for my meal and several things.
4673. If you sell a beast off your farm, while you are in debt to him, he does not object to you applying the price as you like?-He has made no objection; but when a man is in debt to him, he expects to get the first offer of it.
4674. He expects that a man who is in his debt will offer his cow or his pony to him first?-Yes, he looks for that; he has always expected it.
4675. When that is done, who fixes the price?-He will state his price; and if the owner is dissatisfied with it, he will give him a chance of offering it at public sale.
4676. And when it is offered at public sale, what is done then?- The sale is generally in Mr. Bruce's own hand, and the purchaser gives him the money; and then the owner who disposes of the animal will go to him if he is in want of supplies, and he will probably get them.
4677. Are there sales in your district at certain times?-Yes.
[Page 116]
4678. Where do these take place?-At Dunrossness, near the church; twice a year, in the spring, and in the fall.
4679. Is it at these sales that you have a chance of selling your beasts, if you do not agree with Mr. Bruce about the price?-Yes.
4680. And at these sales is there perfect liberty to any person to bid?-Yes.
4681. You can sell them to any person who bids a higher price than the laird offers?-Yes; but the conditions of sale are that the purchaser has to pay the money to Mr. Bruce.
4682. Is that one of the conditions and articles of roup which are read over at the commencement of the sale?-Yes.
4683. Does that condition apply to every lot that is sold, or only to lots that belong to men that are in Mr. Bruce's debt?-It applies to every lot that is sold. On all the properties there, on Simbister, and Mr. Grierson's estate and Sumburgh estate the cattle are called in; people who have cattle to sell are asked to bring them in to the sale.
4684. But nobody is obliged to expose their cattle at these sales unless they please?-There have been cases where we were obliged to dispose of them: for instance, if a man was very deeply in debt, he would be so far forced to bring his cattle and sell them; and the money went into Mr. Bruce's hands, and was put to the man's credit.
4685. You mean that it was credited to the man's account that was settled at the end of the year?-Yes. When young Mr. Bruce first began to take charge of the Sumburgh estate he wished to have all the tenants clear; and for that purpose he published a sale, and forced one of the tenants to bring his effects there, in order that his debts might be paid off. At the sale, Mr. Bruce himself appeared and gave a far higher price than the current price for the material which was being sold, in order to bring the man out of debt.
4686. Who was that man?-Malcolm Irvine, Lasettar. That is the only case of that kind I am acquainted with; but I believe there are more cases of the same kind throughout the parish, where Mr. Bruce paid a higher price for the articles than the market value of them, in order to bring the men out of debt. Of course, that was a favour to the men.
4687. Then, these sales are always fair transactions?-I think they are fair, so far as we can discern, because they do not differ in any way from other sales throughout the island. The terms and conditions of roup are the same at them all.
4688. Is there anything else you wish to say?-There is only forty days' warning given before Martinmas. No doubt that may be well enough for tenants in a town like Lerwick, who hold nothing except a room to live in, but it is very disagreeable for a tenant holding a small piece of land as we do. As soon as our crop is taken in, we must start work immediately, and prepare the land for next season. We have to make provision for manure, and collect our peats, and prepare stuff for thatching our houses, and perhaps by Martinmas we have expended from £6 to £10 worth of labour and expense on our little farms. In that case, it is a very hard thing for us to be turned out of our holdings after receiving only forty days' notice, and perhaps only getting £1, or £2, for all that labour. Now, what I would suggest that instead of that short notice we should be entitled to receive a longer notice, perhaps six or nine months before the term, that we are to be turned out.