4689. Do you think you would be more at liberty to dispose of your fish, and to deal at any shop you pleased, if you were entitled to that longer warning?-I don't think the warning would alter anything with regard to that; but if I knew that I was to be turned out at Martinmas, I would probably start fishing earlier, and I might have a larger price to get for them instead of working upon my land.
4690. But you can be punished more easily by your landlord for selling your fish to another man, when he can turn you out on forty days' warning, than if he could only do it on six or eight months' warning?-I think it would be much the same with regard to that.
4691. You don't think that would make any difference as to the fishing?-It might make a little difference, because if I received my warning in March, and knew that I was to leave at Martinmas, if I saw that I was to have a better price for my fish from another, I would not fish to my landlord at all; but I would go to any man I would get the best price from.
4692. Do you think you would be better off if you had your fish paid for as they are delivered?-I don't think that would serve me any better. It would serve young men who are not landholders better; but I don't think it would serve landholders better than to allow the price to lie, and to settle once in a season, because sometimes our crops are so scanty that we have only perhaps two parts or three-fourths of a regular supply of meal for our living; and if I got the price of my fish paid to me every time when I came ashore, or on the Saturday night, we might perhaps live comfortably for awhile, but then at Martinmas, when our rents were due, and our fishing earnings were spent, we would be in a hard case, because where would our rents come from?
4693. Do you think you would be likely to spend your earnings as you got them?-In some cases that would be so, because occasionally we have to live on a very small allowance of provisions, perhaps one-half or three-fourths, and we suffer from that. I think it is better if the money for our fishing is preserved for a time in our landlord's hands; because, in the first place, we like to have our rents paid.
4694. Would it be any advantage to you to have the price of your fish fixed at the beginning of the season?-It might and it might not, because here in Shetland we are paid for our fish according to a currency. The principal curers in the country arrange what the price is to be, and, so far as I know, they have it in their own power to make the currency whatever they think fit.
4695. Do you think the current price is fairly fixed?-I cannot judge of that, nor can any one outside, because I don't know what has been realized for the fish in the south. It is a matter which rests upon their own conscience, whether the merchants fix a fair current price or not.
4696. But you think they have the fixing of it?-Yes, they do fix it.
4697. Do you think it right that they should have the fixing of it, and that you should have nothing to say to it, when it is according to that price that you are paid?-We have no experience in the matter, or else we should have a voice in it.
4698. If you were at liberty to cure and sell your own fish, would you not have something to say in fixing the market price at which the fish were to be paid?-I think we would.
4699. Supposing the price of your fish were settled at the beginning of the season, and that you knew then what it was to be, do you think you would manage your purchases during the season better than you do now, according as you took a large or a small quantity of fish?-I don't think so.
4700. If you were only taking a small take of fish, you would see, as the season went on, that you could not have a large balance at the end of the year?-I don't think that would matter much for me. It might do for a family in which there were two or three men but for a man who held a certain tack of land, and had to support a family, I don't think it would be any advantage. In my case, there is only myself earning anything, and it takes the greater part of my fishing, year by year, to pay for my meal and land rent.
4701. I suppose what you mean is, that you are obliged to live at a certain rate of expenditure, and that you cannot reduce that rate any lower, however poor your fishing may be?-No, I cannot.
4702. So that you must take the bad years and the good years, and make up in a good year for what you have gone behind in a bad one?-Yes, that is what I mean.
[Page 117]
4703. Therefore the present system suits you as well as any other?-It does.
4704. You could not economize more, although you knew what you were to receive at the end of the year?-I don't see that I could.
4705. And you could not manage your money any better, although you had it in your hands, and could spend it in Lerwick, or in any other store, except that at Boddam?-I don't see that I could. I have not taken any meal from Mr. Bruce now for three years, but I have taken a good deal of things out of his stores.
4706. Have you got your meal from your own ground?-No. During the past season I had to buy very little; but since I came to the place I am now in, I have sometimes had to buy seven, and eight, and nine months' provisions, besides what my own labour upon my farm could yield.
4707. Where did you buy your meal then?-At that time I had some from Mr. Bruce, and some from other places.
4708. But I am talking of the last three years, when you did not buy any of it from Mr. Bruce?-I have had it from Lerwick, and also from a store at Sand Lodge. Lebidden is the name of the place where the store is.
4709. Whose store is that?-Thomas Tullochs's.
4710. Why did you buy it from these stores rather than from the store at Boddam?-Because I could get it cheaper; I would pay some money for it at these other stores.
4711. What did you get it for there?-I don't recollect the price.
4712. I suppose the price varied?-Yes.
4713. And you got it at that price by paying it at the time you got it?-Yes; I got it at as low a price as it could be got anywhere. Besides, I took weaker qualities of grain as being cheaper than what Mr. Bruce had, such as second flour or third flour, and so on, when Mr. Bruce, would have had nothing but barleymeal and oatmeal.
4714. Does he only keep one quality of meal at Boddam store?- He keeps more than one quality, because he has had grain from his own farm to supply his fishermen and tenants with; and he has also had Orkney meal there, which was cheaper than Scotch meal.
4715. But you say that you could get weaker qualities than what Mr. Bruce kept. Do you mean that the qualities were inferior?- Yes.
4716. Were they inferior to any that Mr. Bruce had?-Not to what grew on his own farm, but to any that he had at that time, or what he generally kept.
4717. But I am talking of the last three years during which you have had none from Mr. Bruce. Were the qualities at the other stores inferior to what Mr. Bruce kept?-When I was having none from Mr. Bruce I did not know exactly what qualities he had.
4718. But you knew that what you were getting was cheaper than what you could get at his store?-Yes, I knew that.
4719. Is there anything more you wish to say?-No; I think that is all.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, LAURENCE SMITH, recalled.
4720. I believe you saw the bill, which was put up when Mr. Bruce came, to which the witness Halcrow referred?-Yes, I saw it. There was a man sent round among the tenants with a letter, and he read it to them.
4721. Who was the man?-He is dead: it was John Harper, Virkie.
4722. To whom was the letter addressed?-To the tenants generally. Sometimes when he came to a town, he called the tenants together and read it to them; and when he met one of the tenants by himself, he just read it over to him.
4723. Were the tenants called together at Trosswick, where you live?-Yes.
4724. Was the letter read over to the whole of them at once?- Yes.
4725. Did you hear it?-Yes.
4726. Do you remember its terms?-I do not; but the letter was from old Mr. Bruce, and the substance of it was, that he had given us over into the hands of his son.
4727. As tacksman?-He did not say whether it was as tacksman or not, but he said that the penalty of our not fishing to him would be that we should get our warning.
4728. Was it stated in the letter that young Mr. Bruce was setting up as a fish-curer?-I could not exactly say, but it was known to the tenants that he was going to do so.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY GILBERTSON, recalled.
4729. I believe you were at Fair Isle three weeks ago?-Yes; three or four weeks ago, with a smack belonging to Mr. Bruce.
4730. Was that for the purpose of delivering supplies of provisions to the people on the island?-It was for the purpose of landing two men on the island, one of whom was to be a farmer, and the other was a mason to build dykes.
4731. Had you been there before?-Never.
4732. Did you meet with any of the people while you were there, and talk with them about the way in which their shop was supplied?-Yes, I met almost all of them, and I got some information about how they deal at the shop, because they inquired at me at what prices the articles were sold in Shetland.
4733. Are the people there supplied with provisions and goods from the shop at Dunrossness?-No; there is a shop on the island which is supplied from the shop at Dunrossness.
4734. Do you know anything: about the prices of goods at the shop on Fair Isle?-There was a man belonging to the island-I don't know his name-who told me that he had paid 1s. 4d. per quarter for tobacco. There was a general complaint that the prices were above the currency charged in Shetland.
4735. Did the people seem to think that there was a better way in which they could be supplied?-Yes; they seemed to think that if they had their liberty to sell their fish, to the best advantage, they could supply themselves from Orkney or Shetland with goods at a cheaper rate than they could get them for in Mr. Bruce's store in Fair Isle.
4736. Do you think anybody would be willing to go to Fair Isle to buy fish and sell goods?-There were plenty would do so if they had the chance. Mr. James Smith, of Hill Cottage, Sandwick parish, used to go there, but he was stopped from doing so by Mr. Bruce when he bought the island.
4737. Did the people on the island speak as if they were worse used than they had been formerly?-They spoke as if they got their articles cheaper from Mr. Smith than they could get them now.
4738. How long were you on the island?-I was there for eight days, and I was in almost every house.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HANS SMITH, examined.
4739. You are the master of a smack which sometimes visits Fair Isle for Mr. Bruce?-Yes.
4740. Do you take a quantity of goods to the shop there from the shop at Dunrossness?-Yes, sometimes from the shop at Dunrossness, and sometimes the [Page 118] goods are ordered from the south; and we get them from the steamer at Lerwick, and take them direct to the island.
4741. Do you know anything about the prices at which these goods are charged at the shop on the island?-No; I could not speak positively about that.
4742. Do you know whether the people on the island are satisfied with the supplies which you take to them?-They are satisfied with them so far; but they object to the price realized for their fish as being lower than what is paid in Shetland. I think that is about the only thing they object to. Of course they also think that the prices for the goods are dear; but still they are not so much dissatisfied with that.
4743. I suppose it involves a little expense to get the goods carried from the mainland to Fair Isle?-Of course it does.
4744. There is a risk from the weather in taking them there?-Yes; there is a risk of damage, and there is not a safe harbour there.
4745. Does any one trade to Fair Isle except your smack?-No, not regularly. There are some people who go in occasionally, but there are no others who go very often from Shetland. There is one boat belonging to James Rendall, of Westray, in Orkney, that goes occasionally.
4746. Is it within your knowledge that other traders are not allowed to go to Fair Isle to sell their goods there?-Yes; I believe the people are not allowed to buy from them. They do not exactly stop them; but I think they tried to do it.
4747. Have you known that being done at any time when you were at the island?-I think I have been there twice when James Rendall was there; and he chiefly sold in the night time when I was asleep, and I did not know what was going on.
4748. Why was that?-I don't know. I never asked him why he did it. The people are scarcely allowed either to sell to him or buy from him.
4749. Was it not because the factor forbade him to sell to the people at all that he dealt with them during the night?-Of course the factor forbade him from dealing with them, and he would have noticed if Rendall had dealt with them in the day time. I don't think the people were so much stopped from buying from him as they were stopped from selling to him. They were not allowed to sell any cattle or horse, or anything they had, to him.
4750. How do you know that?-Because I saw it myself. I have heard the factor and the people talking about it, and I know they were not allowed to sell.
4751. Have you heard the factor forbidding them to sell their cattle to Rendall?-Yes; they have told me themselves that it was £2 of a fine if they sold anything to him.
4752. Whom have you heard the factor forbidding to sell to Rendall?-I have heard the factor talking to lots of them about it. There was one, Thomas Wilson for instance; he was forbidden.
4753. Do you know that he wished to sell cattle to Rendall?-Yes; I know that he had a cow last year for which Rendall offered him £5, 10s. on the island, and he was afraid to sell her to him. The factor told him he had better not sell her.
4754. Was it in your presence that he told him so?-Yes; and Wilson came over to Shetland with us; I don't remember what he got for the cow here, but I think it was £4, 1s.
4755. You brought the cow over to Shetland yourself?-Yes.
4756. Who was the factor?-Jerome Wilson.
4757. Did he tell Thomas Wilson that he must not sell his cow because he was in arrear of rent, or in debt?-No; he was not in debt; he had some cash to get at the time of settlement.
4758. How do you know that?-Because he told me himself. I went home with him to his house, when he settled last summer,-I think in June or July.
4759. Do you know of your own knowledge that the cow afterwards sold for £4, 1s. in Shetland?-I think that was what it sold for.
4760. Did you see it sold?-No; but Thomas Wilson told me about it. I was at the sale that day. I was not present when the cow was sold, but Wilson told me about it at night.
4761. Do you buy hosiery from the Fair Isle people?-The factor, Mr. Wilson, buys it for Mr. Bruce.
4762. Do you sometimes bring it over here?-Yes.
4763. You don't know anything about the way in which the people are paid for it?-I don't know.
4764. Is Jerome Wilson likely to be in Shetland soon?-I don't know whether he is or not, but I don't think it. He just buys up the hosiery, and then sends it over to Mr. Bruce. I think the people get goods chiefly for it; but I am not sure. I have seen it sold, and seen them getting goods for it.
4765. Have you seen anybody else buying it on the island? Have you ever bought any of it?-No; not much.
4766. But you have bought a little?-I have bought a pair of stockings; that was all.
4767. Did you pay cash for them?-Yes.
4768. What do the people do with their money in Fair Isle?-I am sure I don't know; they have not much to do with it there.
4769. They cannot purchase goods with it?-They can purchase goods; because when we are going in with the smack, they are always going out and in, and they are glad to get as much money as possible. There are none of the people out of the island just now that I know of.
4770. When will you be going back to it?-Not until the month of April, or the 1st of May.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, ROBERT MALCOLMSON, examined.
4771. You are a fisherman and tenant on Mr. Bruce's lands at Northtown of Exnaboe?-I am.
4772. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie and Laurence Smith?-Yes.
4773. Does it give a fair account of the way in which you deal in fish and purchase goods with Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes, it gives an accurate account of it, so far as my experience goes.
4774. Were you a beach boy when you were young?-Not to Mr. Bruce. At that time the men had their liberty and cured their fish for themselves.
4775. Do you know anything about the way in which beach boys are dealt with now?-No.
4776. None of your family or friends are beach boys?-None.
4777. Have you known of any case in which a man was turned out, or threatened to be turned out of his ground for selling his fish to another than the proprietor?-Yes; I know one case. That was the case of Thomas Harper, James Harper's son, who was referred to before.
4778. That was a good many years ago?-Yes.
4779. Is there anything you wish to add to what has been said by the other men?-Nothing, so far as I remember.
4780. Do you think you would make any more of your fish if you were allowed to cure them for yourself?-We generally think so.
4781. Have you ever made any calculation about that?-According to hearsay from other quarters, and contrasting our case with theirs, we have a rough idea that we would make more on the whole.
4782. Do you think there is any disadvantage to the men in having such long settlements as you have at Dunrossness?-In some cases there is.
4783. Do you think it would be better for you to be paid for your fish as they are delivered?-In some cases that would do very well, but in other cases it would not. Some men and some families would, so to speak, go beyond their income; and at the end of the season, when their rent was due, they would have nothing to [Page 119] give to their landlord. They would not have saved any money for the rent.
4784. But is it not the case that fishermen nowadays save a good deal of money?-Some do, and some do not.
4785. Have not a good many of your friends large deposits in the bank?-No; that is not the case with many.
4786. Are you sure of that?-I would not be positive; but so far as I know, it is not the case.
4787. I suppose a man does not speak very much about his bank account down about Dunrossness, when he has one?-No; but I don't think it is very common for them there to have one.
4788. Do you know anything about the price of meal at the shop where you deal?-I have an idea of it, but only at settling time.
4789. At which shop do you deal?-At Grutness store.
4790. Do you run up a large account in the course of the year?- Generally I do.
4791. Does your account take off most of the price of your fish?- Yes, the most of it.
4792. You only get a small balance at the end of the year?-Yes, if I have it to get; but if not, Mr. Bruce is kind enough to make me a small advance as I need it.
4793. Of course that is on the footing that you are to fish to him next year?-We understand so.
4794. Do you think you would get your meal cheaper at another store than at Grutness, if you had liberty to deal at another store?- I think so, according to what other people say.
4795. Have you inquired the price of meal at Messrs. Hay's shop there?-I have not inquired about it myself.
4796. What do you pay for your meal at Grutness store?-It varies according to the quality and the current price of meal.
4797. Do you pay the same price for it all the year round?-Yes.
4798. Is that generally the price which prevails at the end of the year at settling time, or is it an average of the prices that have prevailed during the whole year?-When it all comes to be summed up, it is generally a little in advance, on the whole, of what we could buy meal for at another shop,-for instance, at Hay and Co.'s.
4799. Is the quality of it as good as you could get at Hay & Co.'s?-The quality is good.
4800. Is there anything else you want to add to the statements of the other witnesses?-No.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, THOMAS AITKEN, examined.
4801. You are a fisherman at Eastshore, in Dunrossness?-Yes.
4802. Are you a tenant of land under Mr. Bruce?-I am only tenant of a room, not of any land. I hold a house there.
4803. Are you bound in any way to fish for Mr. Bruce?-Yes; I signed an agreement to fish for him when he took the fishing in his own hand at Grutness, eleven or twelve years ago.
4804. Were you a landholder at that time?-No; but I was living in my father's house, and I was bound to fish for Mr. Bruce like the rest.
4805. What was the document you were asked to sign?-The general tenor of his statement was, that he was to give the current price, and I was bound to fish for him while I was living on his estate.
4806. Have you any objection to adhere to that bargain?-I am of the opinion that, if I had had my freedom, I might have made a little more from my fish than I have done.
4807. But would you not have your freedom simply by removing to another place?-Not in Dunrossness.
4808. You mean not on his land?-No, nor on Mr. Grierson's land. I would be bound to fish for Grierson under the same rules if I were to remove to his property.
4809. Do you live with your father still?-No; my father is an old man, and he has ceased to hold land.
4810. Do you consider yourself still bound to fish for Mr. Bruce, even although your father does not hold any land from him?-Yes; I consider I am bound while I am living on his estate.
4811. Have you any copy of the agreement which you signed?- No.
4812. Where did you sign it?-In the shop at Grutness.
4813. Who asked you to sign it?-Mr. Bruce's factor, or his farmer who was in Sumburgh at that time who was sent round among the tenants with a letter from old Mr. Bruce, intimating to them that his son was to take the district into his own hands, that they were to fish for him, and that any one refusing to fish was to leave.
4814. That is the letter which Laurence Smith has spoken of?- Yes.
4815. But did you sign anything?-Yes, I signed a paper, stating that I would rather stay and fish for him than that I would flit.
4816. Was that after the letter had been sent round among the tenants?-Yes.
4817. How long after?-A few days perhaps,-not more.
4818. Were you asked to go to the shop and sign it?-Yes.
4819. Were any others asked to sign it?-I believe there were.
4820. Was it the factor who asked you to sign it?-Yes. Gilbert Irvine was the factor; he asked me to sign it, and I signed to him. The paper was there, ready for us to sign.
4821. Was it read over to you?-Yes.
4822. What was the substance of it?-The substance of it was just what I have stated-that if we would fish to Mr. Bruce on these terms, we could stay on the land; and if not, then we would have to go.
4823. Were there many people who signed it at the same time with you?-No.
4824. Was there anybody else who signed it at the same time?-I could not exactly say. I don't think there was anybody in the house when I signed it, but there were a great many names to it before I went in.
4825. Was it signed by landholders only, or by those who had merely a room?-There were very few at that time who merely held a room. There are not many yet who do so; but the document was signed generally by the fishermen who fished there.
4826. Was the thing you signed an obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce so long as you occupied a room or a house on his ground?-Yes; I so understood it.
4827. But if you ceased to occupy that house or room you would be free?-Yes; and we could go to another place.
4828. You settle every year in the spring?-Yes.
4829. Do you generally have a balance in your favour?-Not very often. I have no land, and therefore I have to rely upon my own fishing, or what work I can do for him when I am called upon to work.
4830. Are you bound to work for Mr. Bruce as well as to fish for him?-I am not bound to work for him; but if I am in debt to him, of course he will call me out to work.
4831. But he will pay you for it?-Yes; but I am not quite satisfied with that pay. It is only a penny for one hour's work.
4832. Does that go into your account?-Yes.
4833. Have you got any pass-book at the shop?-No; I have no pass-book there. I see the articles which I receive from him entered into his book, and I told the price of most of the things when they supplied to me; but the principal thing which I get from the store is meal, and I never know the price of it until the day when I come to settle, or until I hear it from any person who has settled before me for the same year.
[Page 120]
4834. Do you know what price you paid for it at last settlement?- I paid the same price for it as the other witnesses you have examined-22s. for Scotch oatmeal, and 20s. for barley-meal.
4835. Do you think you could have got your meal cheaper than that elsewhere?-Yes, I am under that impression.
4836. Have you asked the price of it elsewhere?-Yes; Mr. Hay's factor at Dunrossness had meal which was cheaper at that time.,
4837. That was in the spring of last year?-Yes.
4838. How much cheaper was it?-I cannot remember exactly; but if I had had money, I could have purchased it cheaper at many places besides that.
4839. Did you not get advances of money in the course of the year from Mr. Bruce?-Yes.
4840. Could you not have got as much as you asked?-I did not want to ask more than I thought I could stand to. I did not want to get far in debt to him.
4841. Did you get a balance at last settlement paid to you in money?-Yes; if I had a balance at the end of the year, it was paid to me in money.
4842. But did you get a balance last year?-I was about clear then.
4843. You were not much more than clear?-No.
4844. Do you remember how much you got at that time?-I asked for £1 of advance from him at the settlement, and he gave it to me.
4845. Do you mean £1 more than the balance due to you?-Yes.
4846. Were you in debt at the previous settlement in 1870?-Yes.
4847. Were you also in debt in 1869?-Yes.
4848. Was the balance also on the wrong side for you in 1868?-I don't think it.
4849. Do you think you had something to get in 1868?-If I remember right I had.
4850. Do you remember how you stood in 1867?-I think that I was clear.
4851. But you had not much to get?-No.
4852. You are a married man and have a family?-Yes.
4853. Is there anything you wish to add to what you have heard the previous witnesses say?-Nothing further than just that I am not satisfied with my wages.
4854. Have you not something to say yourself in fixing your charges?-No.
4855. How is that? You need not work unless you know what wages you are to get beforehand?-No; but there is no general work there to work at. Mr. Bruce is the only man who has work to do and when a man is in necessity he must work.
4856. Can you not get land of your own?-No; I am not able to hold any land, because my family are sickly, and are not able to work upon it.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HANS MAINLAND, examined.
4857. You are a fisherman at Northtown of Exnaboe, on the land of Mr Bruce of Sumburgh?-I am.
4858. Have you heard the evidence of the previous witnesses?- Yes.
4859. Has it generally been a correct description of your way of dealing with the shop at Sumburgh, and with Mr. Bruce for your fish?-So far as regards the store, I have never been obliged to take anything from it. I always went and bought my goods for ready money from any place where I could get them cheapest.
4860. Why was that?-Because as a general rule, I heard the people complaining that they were obliged to take their goods from the store, and that they were dearer there than they could be got elsewhere.
4861. Had you any difficulty in getting the balance due to you at the settlement at the end of the year in cash?-No.
4862. You always got money?-Yes.
4863. Was money also advanced to you in the course of the year before settlement, if you wanted it?-Yes, if I asked for it.
4864. What amount might you get advanced before settlement?- If I had asked it, I would have got perhaps £10 or £20. Of course I had a little money in Mr. Bruce's hands, so that I was not requiring to draw any money from him that was not due to me.
4865. Is there anything you wish to add to the evidence which has been given already?-There is one thing I should like to say with regard to the present law on the subject of leases. Mr. Bruce has the power of turning out men who have made a great many improvements on his estate, and perhaps, they may be turned out without receiving any compensation whatever. I am one of those who have done it great deal for it. I have expended upwards of £100 worth of labour and material on his ground.
4866. Before laying out that expense could you not have made an arrangement with the landlord that he should repay you for it if you were turned off?-So far as I am aware, he has never been prepared to give any rules or regulations to that effect.
4867. Has he not offered you a lease?-He has offered us a lease; but I don't think there is any party in Shetland who would accept of it.
4868. Have you ever applied for a different lease?-I have never applied for a lease at all. There was no use doing so, so far as I knew. But I think that when a party lays out money in improvements on master's estate he ought to be paid for it.
4869. But a man who lays out money upon another man's, land knows quite well before he begins that he will not be paid for it, and he takes the risk of the landlord being kind enough and able to repay him part of these expenses. It may very well be that the landlord is a poor enough man as well as the tenant, and that he cannot afford to put improvements upon his land; and yet the tenant goes and spends a lot of money on it, expecting the landlord to repay him for improvements which the landlord himself would not have made, if he had had the land in his own hands?-That may be quite true; but so far as I have understood, Mr. Bruce has always taken a great interest in having improvements made upon his land.
4870. That, however, is hardly a question into which I can enter here unless you think it has some bearing upon the system of payments at the shop, or the system of payments for the fish?-It has no bearing upon these questions at all, so far as I am aware, except perhaps in this way, that for four months in the winter season the fishermen are lying at home to a great extent, idle. The fishing commences about 1st May, and it finishes in the end of August. Then they have to gather in their summer crops; and during the winter season, and the early part of the spring, they have very little to do; while a person of an active turn of mind does not like to remain idle for such a length of time. They want to be doing something, and they will engage to any one who has work to give them.
4871. Have you anything more to say about that?-I have nothing more to say except this, that when person is a tenant at will, and liable to be removed after having made improvements on the estate of any proprietor, he ought to receive compensation for these improvements.
4872. Would it be possible for fishermen in Shetland to carry on the business of fishermen alone without being tenants?-Not so far as my judgment goes.
4873. Why?-Because the small earnings from the fishing could not support him, neither could the land itself support him in the way it is laid down present.
4874. And I suppose, if the holdings of land were larger, a man would have no time to attend to the fishing?-No, he would not. If the holdings were larger, of course the men would have to occupy the whole of their time with the ground.
4875. Don't you think that, with an improved system of agriculture, you would find enough occupation on [Page 121] holdings of the present size for the whole year?-Not in my opinion; they are too small for that.
4876. Not even by following out the rules and regulations which Mr. Bruce has offered you?-No.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, ADAM LESLIE, jun., examined.
4877. You are a fisherman at Toab, in Dunrossness?-I am.
4878. Have you heard the evidence of the previous witnesses?- Yes.
4879. Does it fairly describe the system under which you hold your land and fish for Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh, and the way in which you deal at his shop?-Yes, I think it does.
4880. Is there any addition you wish to make to the evidence which has been given, or any correction upon it?-No.
4881. Have you a pass-book at the shop?-No.
4882. Do you deal at the shop at Grutness for the goods you want for your family?-In part I do.
4883. Do you find that, at the end of the year, you have generally a balance in your favour, or is it against you?-I cannot say that it is much against me.
4884. Do you get payment of that balance in money?-Yes.
4885. Do you also get advances in money, in the course of the year before settlement, if you want them?-Yes; whenever I ask for them. Our place is far away from the bank, and sometimes Mr. Bruce may have run out of money by so many people having gone and asked it from him; but if I go to him and ask him for money, and he does not have it, he tells me when to come back and get it.
4886. In that case, when you get the money, do you spend it generally at Mr. Bruce's shop, or do you go and deal at some other store with it?-I generally go to some other store.
4887. Do you find that you get your goods cheaper at another store than at his?-I am under that impression, but I never compared his goods with those of other merchants.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, GEORGE WILLIAMSON, examined
4888. You are a fisherman at Eastshore, Dunrossness, and a tenant on Mr Bruce's land?-I am.
4889. You have been there for thirteen years?-Yes.
4890. Do you remember a time when the fishermen got their freedom there?-That was before I came to the place.
4891. Were they understood formerly to be bound?-Yes, in old times they were bound; but, just about time when I came there, old Mr. Bruce gave them their liberty, and they were all free.
4892. Was there an understanding previously, that they were bound to fish only to him, or to his tacksmen?-Yes: but, two or three years before I came they got their liberty.
4893. Was there any payment made for that?-Each landholder had to pay 15s. a year for his freedom.
4894. Was that just an addition to their rent?-Yes.
4895. The rents were raised, and the fishermen had liberty to do as they liked about their fish?-Yes.
4896. From whom did you learn that?-It was given out by Mr. Bruce, and by all the tenants.
4897. But you said you were not there at the time?-I was not.
4898. Then you learned that when you came from common report?-Yes, just from common report.
4899. Was your father a landholder there?-No. I removed from Mr. Bruce of Simbister's ground to that place.
4900. Have you held your ground at the same rent for the thirteen years you have been there?-No. The rent has been raised a good deal since I came, in addition to the 15s.
4901. During all your time have you been free to deliver your fish to any person you chose?-I was free to do so until twelve years back, when I became bound to deliver my fish to Mr. John Bruce.
4902. That was by the letter which has been spoken of already?- Yes.
4903. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie, and the other men who have been examined?-Yes.
4904. Was it generally correct as to the way in which you deal about your fish?-So far as I could judge, I have not heard a wrong statement made to-day; and there has been nothing left for me to add to it.
4905. You agree with them that you can get money when you ask for it?-Yes.
4906. Is the bulk of the price of your fish paid to you in money or in goods?-I take goods according as I require them. I have meal and other things; and whatever is over, after paying my account at the shop and my rent, is cheerfully paid to me, the same as I would pay it to my son. There is not a freer man at paying money to his tenants than Mr. Bruce is. I have been £6 in debt, and asked him for advances, and he has given them to me.
4907. Was that after settlement?-Yes.
4908. And, of course, that was given to you on the understanding that you were to be fishing for him next year?-Yes; I was fishing for him by sea, and working for him by land.
4909. If you had not been fishing for him, would you have got an advance of that sort?-But I was fishing for him, so that I cannot tell that.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JAMES FLAWES, examined.
4910. You are a fisherman, and tenant under Mr. Grierson at Rennesta, near Quendale?-I am.
4911. Are you under any obligation to deliver your fish to Mr Grierson?-Yes.
4912. Is he a fish-merchant and fish-curer?-He is a fish-merchant, and he has men under him for curing his fish.
4913. Is your obligation a written one, or is it part of a verbal lease of your land?-When young Mr. Grierson got the fishing, he read out a statement to his tenantry at large, in the schoolroom at Quendale.
4914. How long ago was that?-Twelve years ago. That statement which he read gave the tenantry to understand that he was to become their fish-merchant, or the man they were to deliver their fish to; and that they were all bound to give him every tail of their fish from end to end of the season, as long as they held their land under him. If they did not do that, they knew the consequences: they would be turned out.
4915. Was that all stated to you in the schoolroom on that occasion?-Yes; it was all read off by Mr. Grierson himself.
4916. Were you present?-Yes.
4917. Did he state that you would be paid for your fish according to the current price at the time of settlement?-Yes; that was stated also at that time.
4918. Was it stated how that current price was to be ascertained?-It was to be the currency of the country, particularly the prices paid by three or four merchants who dealt in the same kind of fish that he received from his tenants.
4919. Did Mr. Grierson name the four merchants whose prices were to rule?-The four merchants who generally agree together are Mr. John Robertson, [Page 122] Messrs. Hay, Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh, and Mr. Grierson.
4920. How do you know that these merchants agree together as to the prices?-Because the tenants of the whole of them generally get the same price for their fish.
4921. Do not all the tenants in Shetland generally get the same price for their fish each season?-No; there is a difference.
4922. Do you know that the tenants of these four parties always get one price?-Yes; generally it is the same price that is given to them all.
4923. Do you know that the tenants on other estates get a different price?-Yes, I know that.
4924. Can you mention any case in which that has happened?- Yes. There are a few merchants in Sandwick parish who get fish from a few boats there-James Smith, James Mouat, and Thomas Tulloch-and they always give a little higher.
4925. Do these merchants keep shops as well?-Yes, they have shops too.
4926. Do the men who fish for them deal at their shops?-I understand they do.
4927. Can you tell me how much Tulloch and Smith have paid for their fish?-In some years they give 6d. per cwt. more than Mr. Grierson and the other merchants I have mentioned, and for some kinds of fish 9d. more.
4928. What price did you receive for your fish at last settlement?-Last year, I think, we got 7s. for ling, or 7s. 3d., I could not exactly say which; 5s. 6d. for cod, and 3s. 6d. for saith.
4929. Do you know how much the fishermen got from Tulloch and Smith?-I could not exactly say, but they got a little more.
4930. You knew that at the time?-Yes, I knew it at the time from the fishermen who were giving their fish to them.
4931. Do you know how much more they got?-I think it was 9d. more on some fish, and 6d. more on others. It might be a little more; but, I think, I am safe to say that.
4932. Do you know anything about the prices of goods at the stores of Tulloch and Smith?-No. I never bought anything from them.
4933. Young Mr. Grierson, whom you mentioned as having taken the fishing in 1861, is now the proprietor of the estate?-Yes.
4934. Does the obligation which was then imposed upon you extend to the sons of his tenants, as well as to the tenants themselves?-It extends to all.
4935. Do you know of any case in which any man upon the land has delivered his fish to another fishcurer than Mr. Grierson, and has been challenged or turned out for that?-I know one.
4936. Who was that?-Thomas Johnston, Garth, Quendale, son of
John Johnston. He was out of a chance of fishing for Mr. Grierson
at his station, but he got a chance to fish for Messrs. Hay, and
because he went and fished for them, he could not come back to
his father's house, but had to remain all winter and vore (
4937. Who prevented him from coming back to his father's house, if he had chosen to do so?-He was told by Mr. Grierson, that if he went and fished for another person, he would have to stop away, and that if he came back, it would be his father's warning.
4938. How long ago was that?-I don't recollect exactly; perhaps two or three years ago.
4939. How do you know that that warning would have been given to John Johnston?-Because it was part of the arrangement with Mr. Grierson from the very outset.
4940. But how do you know that Thomas Johnston was told he must leave the land and that his father would be turned out if he came back?-Because he told me so himself, and he evidenced it by staying away.
4941. Was it not more convenient for him to live near the station where he was fishing for Hay & Co., than to remain in his father's house?-He had to leave his own house and go away down to the west voe to fish.
4942. But was it not more convenient for himself to go there?- Yes, it was handier for him to live near the place where he was fishing.
4943. Are you sure that was not the reason why he left his father's house?-But the man he fished for did not live at that station: his house was away upon the west side.
4944. Was he not upon Mr. Grierson's land?-No, not that man.
4945. Do you know the case of any other man being challenged or threatened because he sold his fish to another fish merchant than Mr. Grierson?-Yes, I know of another case-James Shewan on the ground of Brough, belonging to Mr. Grierson's estate.
4946. How long is it since that case happened?-It was last year.
4947. What do you know about it?-Shewan did not have a chance of fishing at home for Mr. Grierson, and he also took a chance at the ness with Messrs. Hay & Co. They fished from the west voe then.
4948. What was the consequence?-The consequence was that Shewan had to pay £1 of liberty money.
4949. When was that?-This year.
4950. Was it before last settlement?-No; it was at this settlement.
4951. Is the settlement over at Quendale for last season?-Almost. There were a few boats not settled with when we came up.
4952. How do you know that Shewan had to pay liberty money this year? Did he tell you that he had had to pay it?-Yes.
4953. Did you see him pay it?-I did not.
4954. Was it added to his account when settling?-I cannot tell you whether it was included in the settlement, or whether he had paid it some months before.
4955. When did he tell you about it?-He told me when he had settled.
4956. How long ago is that?-It is not very long; perhaps it week or two since.
4957. Is James Shewan a tenant of Mr. Grierson's?-Yes.
4958. Was it not it part of his bargain, on taking his land, that he should deliver his fish to his landlord?-Yes.
4959. And was not that £1 which he paid just a penalty for breach of contract?-Yes; but then he did not have a chance of fishing for Mr. Grierson. There were no men on Mr. Grierson's estate who could fill up a boat with him, the men that he had previously been going with having joined another crew; and therefore he had to go to some other place where he could earn something.
4960. Were Mr. Grierson's crews all filled up at that time?-Yes.
4961. Could Shewan not have brought his share of his boat's fish to Mr. Grierson and delivered them to him, although the rest of the men were fishing for Hay and Co.?-He might have done that; but I don't know very well about it.
4962. That would have been very inconvenient I suppose?-Yes, very.
4963. Do you know of any other case of the same kind?- No.
4964. Or of any case of a person being told that he must fish entirely to Mr. Grierson without being threatened?-We knew quite well from the statement which was made to us before, that if any one transgressed the rule, the penalty would just be our forty days warning.
4965. Do you deal at the Quendale store?-Yes.
4966. Who is the storekeeper there?-Ogilvy Jamieson.
4967. Is the shop at a convenient place for your people and for most of the fishermen round about?-Yes, it is very convenient.
4968. Does Jamieson receive your fish as well as attend to the shop?-Yes. There is a factor under [Page 123] him who receives the fish, but Jamieson is over all, both over the shop and the fish.
4969. What is the name of the factor who receives the fish?-It is sometimes one man and sometimes another.
4970. Do you run an account at the shop?-Yes.
4971. Are you expected to deal there, or have you freedom to deal where you like for what you want for your families?-We are quite at liberty to deal anywhere we choose, if we had only the means in our possession to do it.
4972. How is that you have not the means?-Because we have not got the money.
4973. Does Mr. Grierson advance you money in the course of the year before settlement when you ask for it?-He does.
4974. Can you not take that money and deal with it at any other store that suits you better than Mr. Grierson's?-We do that very often.
4975. Then, how is it that you say you have not the means of dealing where you choose?-What I mean by that is, that we don't have the chance to do it so often as we would like to do it; and we don't like to be always running to him for money for the small things we require. It is only in particular cases when we require a pound or so to help us that we ask it from him.
4976. What other shops are there convenient for you?-The only shop that I can make better out of than Mr. Grierson's in our district is Mr. Gavin Henderson's at Scousborough.
4977. Is that near Dunrossness kirk?-It is to the north and west of it.
4978. Do you prefer to go to Henderson's store because the goods are cheaper and better there?-Yes.
4979. Are they both cheaper and better?-We generally think so.
4980. Can you give me any particular case in which you have found them to be so?-I have never made an exact comparison of the things to find out the precise difference; but when we are to buy a suit of clothes for instance, we think we can make as good bargain at Henderson's shop as we can do at any shop in Shetland.
4981. Have you bought a suit of clothes both at that shop and at Mr. Grierson's?-I have never bought a full suit of clothes at Mr. Grierson's, but I have done so at Gavin Henderson's.
4982. What is the price of meal at Quendale store?-I could not tell exactly, because I have not had any there during the last two years, my little farm having supplied me with all I wanted.
4983. What is the price of tea at the two stores?-The prices of tea at both these stores are much the same. There are three different prices of tea at the two stores, but we rather think that Henderson's tea is generally better for the prices charged than Mr. Grierson's is.
4984. Have you tried the moleskins also?-Yes; and if I were buying with ready money out of Grierson's shop, I don't think the difference between them would be worth mentioning.
4985. But is there a difference according as you buy with ready money or pay at the settlement?-Yes. If I buy a pair of trousers for ready money, I get them down 1d. per yard. The cloth is marked 3s. per yard, and I get 1d. off the yard. Then if I buy a shirt of 3 yards, and if I pay ready money for it, I get reduction of 1d. per yard on 9d. or 10d.
4986. Do you get your goods cheaper at Henderson's shop even with that discount?-Yes. If I go to Henderson's shop without the money, he will not take any more for the goods than he would do even if I had the money with me.
4987. Will he give you the goods as cheap as at Grierson's?-Yes; as cheap as if I had bought them at Grierson's with ready money.
4988. Is there any other reason why you would prefer not to deal at Mr. Grierson's shop for your goods?-We would have no great objection to deal at his shop if we were paid a little better for our fish. It is our opinion that we are not paid for our fish altogether as we might be.
4989. But you get the currency of the country?-Yes; and we sign for that.
4990. Do you think you should get more than the currency of the country?-We cannot exactly judge of the state of the market, but from what we hear and from what we see in the papers, we think the merchants take rather too much profit, and that we would be a little better if we received the money for the sale of our fish ourselves.
4991. Do you think you would be better off if you had a price fixed for your fish at so much per cwt. at the beginning of the season?-That would depend upon circumstances.
4992. Taking a number of years together, do you think you could make a better bargain for yourselves in that way?-I think so. The three men I mentioned in Sandwick parish generally give an agreement to state something like what they will give, and they seem to stand by it pretty well whatever the price may be.
4993. Would the fishermen not object to that sort of arrangement?-I don't know. I don't think the fishermen in general would object to any agreement by which they might know what they were working for during the season, although I really cannot say that they could make any more decided efforts for catching fish than they do under present circumstances.
4994. But even although the price were fixed at the beginning of the season, the fishermen would still have an inducement to exert themselves as much as possible in order that they might have a large catch?-They would; but I say that I don't know how they could exert themselves to do more than they do already.
4995. Still, they would have exactly the same reason for exertion?-Yes.
4996. Do you think if the price were fixed at the beginning of the season, and it turned out that the current price of fish was much higher than that fixed with the men at the commencement, they would try to get out of their bargain, and demand the higher price that was current?-There comes the difficulty. We who catch the fish would always like to get as high a price for them as we can; but if we make an agreement, we must stand by it. However, if the merchants could afford to give 6d. or 1s. more according to the state of the markets, and did not give it, we would rather look down upon them for taking such a large price, and not giving us part of the advantage of it.
4997. But you ought to recollect that in another year you might have made a bargain for the same price, and the price received by the fish-curers might be less, so that there would be a loss to them?-Yes; but, I think the men in general would be prepared to run the risk of the rise and fall in the markets in that way, or, if they made a bargain, they would stick to it.
4998. Have you known any case in which men engaged to fish on such terms, and finding the price higher than that which they had bargained for, asked that higher price from the fish-curer?-I cannot say that I have known any case.
4999. You don't know whether that has ever occurred in Shetland?-No, I don't know anything about that.
5000. Do you know anything about the employment of beach boys?-A little. I had a boy employed this year at the beach.
5001. Is there considered to be an obligation upon the Quendale tenants to allow their sons to be employed as beach boys?-Yes, whenever called for.
5002. Is that obligation enforced?-Yes, it is just the same as with all the rest. The landlord says, 'If I call for your son to cure fish for me, and you object to it, then I can lay whatever penalty I choose upon you, and either remove you or impose a fine.'
5003. Do you know of any case where that has occurred?-No; because the tenants know exactly what the consequences would be, and they are frightened to do anything in opposition to their landlord's wishes. We are all poor people together, and not very well able to bear fines or removals.
[Page 124]
5004. What are the wages for a beach boy?-An active beach boy for his first year at Quendale will get 30s. for about five months in the year. That is his whole wage.
5005. Could he get more in any other employment in Shetland?- In some cases Messrs. Hay's factor would give more for beach boys than they would get beside us.
5006. What is the age of a boy who would get that wage?-From twelve to fourteen or sixteen years; and if a boy goes two or three years to the beach, his wages are raised every year.
5007. How are their wages paid?-If they take goods from the shop, these are marked down against them.
5008. Are they marked down in the father's account, or in a separate account in the boy's own name?-In a separate account in the boy's own name.
5009. Has your son been long in that employment?-I have only had one of my sons at it for one year.
5010. Is he to be employed this year again in the same way?-Yes.
5011. Had he a balance in his favour when he was settled with?- He has not been settled with yet. He was employed for the year which has just come to an end; but I don't think he will have very much to get, as he had no clothes to speak of when he began, and he was very glad of the chance of winning a little, so that he might get a suit of clothes.
5012. Has it been a common case within the last two or three years for the fishermen who are employed in the way you have described to have a balance in their favour at settlement, or have they usually had balance against them?-During the last two or three years a good many of Mr. Grierson's fishermen have had a very good balance to come to them to account, but I and some others have been behind and could not get clear.
5013. Are there many of that sort?-There are few.
5014. Is it worse for a man of that kind to leave and get free of his obligation to fish than for a man that has cash to receive to do so?-Under Mr. Grierson's arrangement there is no difference between the two kinds of men as regards getting their liberty to fish to any other man, because none of them have any such liberty.
5015. The obligation to fish depends on the holding of land; it does not depend on the amount of debt due to Mr. Grierson?-No, it does not depend upon that.
5016. Are there many men there who fish for Mr. Grierson and who do not hold land?-Yes, there are a good few.
5017. Are they under any obligation to fish for him?-They are all under one obligation from head to foot.
5018. How does that happen in the case of men who do not hold land?-Because they are all on Mr. Grierson's ground.
5019. Would the party they live with be warned if they were not to fish for him?-That was in his first arrangement.
5020. Is that arrangement still in force?-I never knew of any alteration being made upon it.
5021. Have you been told anything about that obligation since it was read over to you in 1861?-No; there have been no cases in which it has been broken except the two I have mentioned, and we saw what happened.
5022. But you have not been spoken to about it at all?-No.
5023. Or reminded about it?-No, we have never been reminded about it; but we signed then to fish for Mr. Grierson, and we have heard of no other arrangement.
5024. How do you supply yourselves with fishing materials?-We generally take them from Mr. Grierson's shop.
5025. Are you under any sort of obligation to take them from there?-We are just under the same sort of obligation to take them from his shop as we are to take anything, because we generally cannot get them anywhere else. We never ask money to go and get them anywhere else, although it is our opinion that if we could go elsewhere, we would get them a little cheaper-that is, our fishing lines.
5026. Where would you go for them?-We could buy them in some shops in Lerwick a little cheaper.
5027. But you would have a long way to carry them if you were to buy them here?-Yes; but we don't think much of our travel sometimes when we can make good bargain.
5028. Have you anything more to say about the state of matters in your neighbourhood?-I have nothing more to say at present; only, if I am at liberty to do so, I should like to say on Mr. Grierson's behalf that, as a landlord, he has been very favourable to me and to many of the tenants. He has supplied us with goods and helped us, when we were not very well able to help ourselves; and he has continued to do that in my case to the present time. If I am in debt to him, he never charges me for that debt; but I am at liberty to sell any animal off my farm if I choose, without him asking anything about it.
5029. Are you a little behind just now?-I am a good bit behind just now.
5030. But you could still get an advance of money if you needed it?-Yes. The shopkeeper told me when I was settling, that if I wanted from 1s. to £1, I could get it from him any time I asked for it.
5031. Do you get all your things at his shop?-Not altogether. When I have a little money beside me, I can get them from any quarter. The fact is that I sometimes go there with money, and get the things cheaper than if I were getting them on credit. For instance, if I ask for a quarter pound of stick tobacco, I will get it for 1s. if I pay for it with money; while if it is marked down to me, it will be 1s. 1d. Now, we do think that is very unreasonable, as they have a profit both on our fish and on our goods, and we are very much dissatisfied about it.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, GEORGE GOUDIE, examined.
5032. You are a fisherman and tenant on the estate of Mr. Grierson of Quendale?-Yes; at Garth.
5033. Have you heard the evidence of James Flawes?-Yes.
5034. Is it generally a correct statement of the obligation you are under to fish to Mr. Grierson, and of the way in which you settle for your fish?-So far as I know, it is.
5035. Do you get money paid to you when you want it in the course of the season?-Yes.
5036. But is the greater part of the price of your fish got out in goods from Mr. Grierson's shop?-Yes, the greater part.
5037. What balance did you receive at last settlement?-I had no balance to receive. It was against me.
5038. Had most of the men a balance against them at last settlement?-I suppose the greater part of them had.
5039. Have you got a note of your settlement?-No.
5040. Did you get any receipt or pass-book or account?-No.
5041. Is your account read over to you at the settlement?-Yes, if we want to have it read. The shop account, if we want it, will be read over to us.
5042. If it is not read over, how do you know whether it is correctly charged or not?-The men who do not keep a note of their accounts for themselves cannot know whether they are correct or not even by hearing them read over.
5043. Are you generally content to trust to the shopkeeper for the accuracy of your account?-Yes.
5044. Do you know anything about the quality of the meal that is sold there, and the price of it?-Yes.
5045. Have you been getting meal from the shop [Page 125] during the last year or two?-Yes. Mr. Grierson's meal last year was from 2s. to 3s. per boll above what Mr. Gavin Henderson charged for his.
5046. Was the quality of Henderson's meal as good?-Yes; quite as good.
5047. Have you tried them both in your own house?-Yes.
5048. What was the price of the one and of the other?-Mr. Grierson's bear-meal was 14s. per boll-that is Shetland grain; and Gavin Henderson charged 12. for Shetland meal also.