5049. Does Mr Grierson's shopkeeper charge the same price for meal all through the year?-Yes; for the same kind of meal.
5050. All the meal of the same kind in your account is charged at the same rate throughout the year?-Yes.
5051. But at Gavin Henderson's, it is charged to you according to the price at the time you buy it: the price varying at different periods of the same year?-Yes, it varies a little; but Mr. Grierson's meal also varies when the price elsewhere varies.
5052. Then you may have meal charged at different rates in the same account?-Yes.
5053. Is there any other article, the price of which you have compared with what you could get it for elsewhere?-Yes, there is tobacco. If we buy a single ounce we pay 31/2d., and 2 oz. 6d., at Quendale store. In Gavin Henderson's we can get a single ounce for 3d., and 2 oz. are charged 6d. also.
5054. Is there anything else you can speak to?-No, I don't think there is anything else.
5055. Is there anything else you wish to say in addition to what James Flawes has said?-No.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, CHARLES EUNSON, examined.
5056. You are a fisherman, and a tenant of Mr. Grierson's at Waterbru?-I am.
5057. Is that near Quendale?-It is about a mile and a half away.
5058. Have you heard the evidence of James Flawes and George Goudie?-Yes.
5059. Is it generally correct with regard to the system of dealing at the shop and for your fish?-I think so.
5060. Is there anything you wish to add to it?-Nothing with respect to that; but I had a little experience once with regard to liberty money. Before the time when Mr. Grierson and Mr. Bruce took the fishings into their own hands-for they were both in company when they started with that-we had enjoyed our liberty all along, and had never been obliged to fish for our proprietors; but at that time we were taken in hand along with the rest of Mr. Grierson's tenants, and we had to fish for them. That lasted only for three years, and then the contract was broken, and each started on his own account.
5061. Was that before or after the statement which was made by Mr. Grierson at Quendale?-It was three years after it. When the contract was broken, Mr. Grierson had no place handy for us to land our fish at and deliver them to him, as we lived farther from Quendale than the rest of his tenants; and therefore at that time again we got our liberty and fished for whom we chose. He exacted nothing for that, and things went on in that way, I think, for three years; but at the end of that time Mr. Grierson took a station at Voe, on the east side of the parish, where he had had no place previously, and he told us that we would be obliged to deliver our fish to him, like the rest of his tenants. During the three years before we were put under that obligation, we had been fishing at the Ness, and had been at considerable trouble and expense in forcing a beach, and making other things right for curing our own fish. We were unwilling to lose the whole of that, and we applied to Mr. Grierson to allow us to continue to fish at the Ness; and he told us that if we paid three guineas of liberty money, he would allow us to fish there. We offered to pay that liberty money for one season, but it was a bad season; there were not many fish, and the price was low; and we went to Mr Grierson and asked him if he would take our fish. He consented to take them in a dry state; and he deducted 6d. per cwt. for the three guineas for every cwt. we delivered to him; so the result was that we had to pay him about £1 and upwards.
5062. In what year was that?-It is four years ago; it must have been in 1867.
5063. Then these fish would be settled for at the annual settlement?-Yes.
5064. Did you get any account of that year's settlement?-No; I would have got it if I had asked for it, but I never asked it.
5065. Who did you settle with that year?-With Mr. Grierson himself.
5066. You did not settle with Mr. Jamieson?-No; he had not come to the place at that time. There was another man there in the place which Mr. Jamieson now has, but we did not settle with him.
5067. Do you know anything about the price or quality of the meal at Quendale store as compared with other places?-It is a great deal better now than it used to be eleven or twelve years ago; it was not very satisfactory then, but it is not so bad now. The difference between the meal there and at other places is still something, but not so much so as it was.
5068. Do you get meal there?-Yes, frequently; and frequently at other places.
5069. I suppose you get it there, or at other places, according to the state of your account at the time?-Yes; or rather according to my interest. Mr. Grierson has never refused to give me anything reasonable that I asked him. He has been very generous in that way all along.
5070. Have you any boys on the beach?-I have one boy who has been engaged this year for the first time for Mr. Grierson.
5071. Had you any desire to have him engaged elsewhere?-I would not have minded much if he had never gone to the beach at all; it is not a very good berth for a boy. In the previous year they asked me if I would allow him to go to the beach, and I said I would rather not, as I required his services myself; but this season they asked me for him again. Perhaps they would not have taken him against my will, but Mr Grierson might have thought I was rather obstinate if I refused again, and so I let him go. I did not like to refuse when Mr. Grierson asked me.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, LAURENCE LESLIE, examined.
5072. You are a fisherman, and a tenant on Mr. Grierson's land at Hillwill?-I am only a fisherman, but I pay a little rent along with my father.
5073. Are you any relation of the witness Laurence Leslie who was previously examined?-No.
5074. You have heard the evidence of the previous witnesses from Quendale?-Yes.
5075. Is it generally correct?-I think it is.
5076. Is there anything you could add to it?-I don't think so.
5077. Although you are not a tenant, do you consider yourself bound to fish to Mr. Grierson?-Yes, I am bound to do so.
5078. You could be free from that obligation, however, by leaving the ground?-Yes.
5079. Do you run an account in your own name at Mr. Grierson's shop?-No. I get a little from the shop sometimes, but I buy what I want where I think most convenient.
5080. Do you get payment in money from Mr. Grierson?-Yes.
5081. Can you get all your payment in money from him if you like?-Yes.
[Page 126]
5082. Do you get that money in the course of the year, or at the end of the season?-Just when we settle once a year.
5083. You don't get advances in the course of the year?-No; I don't seek any before the end of the year.
5084. Then you have always cash in hand?-Yes.
5085. You are a little ahead of the world?-Yes.
5086. Have you any beach boys in your family?-No; but I was a beach boy myself about fifteen years ago.
5087. That was before there was any obligation on the Quendale people to fish for their landlord?-Yes.
5088. At that time how was the arrangement made with beach boys?-I wrought for five months, and I got 10s.
5089. Was that paid to you in goods or in money at the settlement?-I got it in money at the settlement.
5090. Was that the usual way of settling at that time?-Yes.
5091. Is it the usual way still that a beach boy gets payment of his wages in money?-I believe so.
5092. Does he not run an account at the store?-I don't know anything about that myself.
5093. Have you anything to add to what the other men have said?-My wife sent up a shawl to a sister of mine in Lerwick to have it sold, and she sold it to Laurenson & Co. I came up to Lerwick some time afterwards, in the course of the spring, to take down a boat, and I went to the shop to get payment of the shawl. I was not requiring cottons or drapery goods, but I was requiring a pair of trousers; and when I went to the shop, I was shown a piece of tweed which I fixed upon to take, but the merchant refused to give me the cloth for the shawl, because it was a money article, and I had to take soft goods and other things which were of no use to me.
5094. Would he not have given you the cloth in exchange for the shawl at a somewhat higher rate than he would have given it to you for cash?-He would not give it to me at all, and I had to take the cottons and stuff that were of very little use to me.
5095. Did you take these home?-No.
5096. Have you had any other dealings of that sort?-No.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JOHN BURGESS, examined.
5097. You are a fisherman, and a tenant under Mr. Grierson at Hillwill?-Yes.
5098. Have you heard the evidence that has been given by James Flawes and the other witnesses from Quendale, with regard to Mr. Grierson's fishing business, and their dealings at his shop?-Yes. 5099. Is that evidence correct, so far as you know?-Yes,
5100. Have you anything to add to it?-Nothing.
5101. Do you know anything about the engagement of beach boys?-Yes.
5102. Are there some of them in your family?-Yes; I have had a son employed as a beach boy for two years. His wages for the first year were 30s., and for the second year, 35s.
5103. Was that wage fixed at the commencement of the year or at settlement time?-It was not fixed until settlement. I did not know what he was working for until then.
5104. Was he running an account at the time in the shop books?- A small one. It was very little he was requiring, and he got the balance in money.
5105. Was there any obligation on him to go as beach boy to Mr. Grierson?-Yes.
5106. Could you not have engaged him anywhere else?-No; I wanted to keep him at home beside myself, because I was requiring him, but Mr Jamieson told me he was requiring him at the beach, and I must just let him go; and therefore I preferred to put up with a little hardship to myself and my family, and allowed him to go to the beach.
5107. When did Mr. Jamieson tell you that?-When he came and asked me to allow my boy to go.
5108. Was that before the commencement of the first year which he served?-Yes.
5109. Did you make any objection when Mr. Jamieson asked you for him?-Yes, I objected a little. I said I would be glad to keep him at home; but Mr. Jamieson said I would better just let him go, and I did so, without any more hesitation.
5110. Do you know anything about the difference in the price of meal at Mr. Grierson's store, and at others?-No; I have had very little to do with the store.
5111. Do you not deal there?-I deal for a few small things, but very little.
5112. Do you buy most of your provisions and other things from other stores?-Yes, for the most part.
5113. Where do you get them?-From Mr. Henderson's.
5114. Are you quite at liberty to go there for them-Yes.
5115. Can you get advances of money from Mr. Grierson in the course of the year for the purpose of buying goods at Henderson's and other stores?-Yes. If I was asking for advances, I would get them; but I don't ask for any until settling time, and then I get the balance, whatever it is, freely.
5116. Have you an account against you at that time?-Yes.
5117. Have you any pass-book?-No, I don't keep any pass-book.
5118. Is your account read over to you at settlement time?-Yes.
5119. And you see that it is correct?-Yes; so far as my judgment leads me.
5120. But you say you don't get many goods at the store: is that because you can get them cheaper elsewhere?-Perhaps that is sometimes the reason, and sometimes I don't require the things which are there. I always take my fishing materials, lines and hooks, and other things of that kind, from the store.
5121. Are these things reasonably priced?-We suppose they are much the same as in other places in the neighbourhood.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY LESLIE, examined.
5122. You are a fisherman, and a tenant under Grierson at Gord?-I am.
5123. You have heard the evidence of Flawes and the others?- Yes.
5124. Do you agree with it, so far as you know?-Yes.
5125. You know the facts which have been stated by them to be true?-Yes.
5126. Have you been a long time a tenant on that estate?-Yes; for fifty years at any rate.
5127. At the commencement of that period, were you free to fish to any one you liked?-No; there has always been a bond on that estate to fish to Mr. Grierson, or to any one to whom the fish were let. That has been the case all my time, and I have been more than sixty years there.
5128. Have you fished to anybody else during any part of that time?-No; it was always to him. There were three years when Mr. Bruce and Mr Grierson were in company together.
5129. But before that you were not free?-No; I never knew a time when we were free all the time I have been there.
5130. Who did you fish to before that?-To Mr. Grierson and to his father. I fished to the present Mr. Grierson's grandfather, and I was at the beach to him.
5131. Was he a fish-curer and fish-merchant also?-Yes.
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5132. Was that property ever set in tack to a fish-merchant?-Yes; but that was before my day.
5133. Has the obligation to fish always been a part of the condition on which you held your land?-Yes.
5134. Were you present at the time when young Mr. Grierson intimated to the tenants that he was taking the fishing into his own hands?-Yes; I and every man and boy on the estate were all assembled in the same room, and we all heard the same agreement read
5135. Was not that the beginning of the present state of things under which you are now bound to fish?-Yes.
5136. Then you were free before that?-No, we were not free; but we wrought upon a different scale.
5137. Were you bound at that time to fish for Mr. Grierson?-Yes.
5138. Is there anything you wish to add to the statement which the other men have made about the present state of things?-I have nothing to add to what the other Quendale men have stated.
5139. Have you been getting meal from Mr. Grierson's store?- No; I have got none there for the last two years. I required none during that time.
5140. Have you had plenty to supply you from your own ground?-Yes; or I had bought it at a roup when other people were going out.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, PETER MOUAT SANDISON, examined.
5141. You are inspector of poor in the parish of Fetlar and North Yell?-I am.
5142. You were formerly engaged in the fish-curing trade?-I was, for a considerable time.
5143. Have you heard the evidence of any of the witnesses who have been examined here to-day?-I have.
5144. Was the mode of paying for fish, and the way in which the accounts of the fishermen were settled at the end of the year, much the same in Yell when you were engaged in the business as you have heard described?-Yes, the settlement was much the same.
5145. Was it made about the same season of the year?-It was generally made about 20th November on towards the end of the year.
5146. Does the fisherman who is employed there by a merchant usually open an account in that merchant's books for provisions and soft goods and other things which he wants for his family?- Yes, he does, almost invariably.
5147. In your experience, is that account pretty nearly even on the two sides, or is there a balance due on the one side or on the other at the end of the year?-That, of course, depends a great deal upon the party who is running the account. There is a difference in men as well as in merchants and fish-curers. Some have larger families and require a great deal more supplies than others. Some have smaller families, and the produce of their own farms can serve them for a longer period in the year than others. From various causes the amount of their supplies is very different; but for the last three years I should say there have been only about 20 to 25 per cent of them who have not had money to get at settlement.
5148. It has been said that it is an important thing for the success of a merchant to get his fishermen into debt to him, so that he may secure their services for the succeeding year: would you consider that a safe policy to pursue on the part of a merchant?-I was a fish-curer and merchant for twelve years myself, and I am always considered it to be the best policy to have clear men
5149. Did you find that, as a rule, the best men were clear in your books?-Decidedly. I never found that debt afforded me any hold whatever upon a man.
5150. Then you found the case to be rather the reverse of what I have stated?-Yes; and the reason why I think it was the reverse is, that no man was in debt who could help it, and generally a man who was in debt was found to be an extravagant, careless man, or there was something wrong with him. Whenever a man got a certain depth into debt, he did not care how much deeper he went; and if I refused him further supplies at the shop, then he just went to another merchant.
5151. Or he might go south?-Occasionally he did, but not often. These kind of men don't go south.
5152. But if he went to another man, you could charge him for your debt?-Yes; my only recourse was to summon him; but what was the use of doing that. I would only have lost the expense of my summons, because he had nothing that I could take from him; or if he had anything, his landlord generally came in with his right of hypothec.
5153. Could you not arrest the proceeds of his fishing in the hands of the other merchant to whom he had gone?-No; I think that is not legal. I have tried it, but I could not succeed. A considerable number of the men who left me one year went to another fishcurer, who happened to be their own proprietor. He had not been curing fish previously. I summoned several of them; and with one of them especially I had a case in court in Lerwick for a considerable time. It was ultimately decided that the merchant, as proprietor, should pay the expense to which I had been at; but as to the account, I did not get one penny of it. I got my expenses and nothing more. I give it up as hopeless case.
5154. Had these fishermen been obliged to leave your service and go to fish for their proprietor?-Yes; at that time they were obliged to do so.
5155. He had regarded it as part of the obligation under which they held their land that they should fish for him?-He had not been carrying on the fishing previously; and he allowed the men to fish for me, or, least, for the firm which I was conducting; but when he took the fishing into his own hands, he required his men to fish for himself.
5156. I suppose he agreed to pay the expenses of the case you mentioned because he felt it was some hardship to you to deprive you of the services of these men?-It was his lawyer and mine, I think, who agreed together about the expenses.
5157. Was the proprietor to whom you refer Mr. Henderson?-No.
5158. Was it Mr M'Queen?-No.
5159. Was he a proprietor in Yell?-Yes.
5160. How many fishermen did you generally employ?-At one time I employed 90.
5161. Would the whole of these men have accounts in your shop books?-Yes.
5162. Can you give me some idea of what amount of the proceeds of their fishing would be paid for by their account for goods?- The lowest amount that I ever had in an account for goods, when I settled with a man, was 21/2d. for a whole twelvemonth-the man got the rest in cash; and the highest, if I remember right, was somewhere about £10. 10s.
5163. What balance would remain due to that man?-Some years, of course, he would be in debt; but in other years he would have something to get.
5164. Was it a very good year in which the man had taken ten guineas worth from your shop, or was that about the average amount of their shop accounts?-I am talking about the average accounts for the twelve years during which I was carrying on the business. In the last year when I carried on the business on my own account, the most money I paid to any man for fish was £22.
5165. What would be the amount of that man's contra account for goods?-I think about six guineas.
5166. Would that be a fair specimen of the accounts?-No; that was an extra year. There was an extra quantity of fish taken, and an extra price paid for them; and that man's boat, I think, was the highest fished boat an the whole station.
5167. But would that be a fair specimen of the amount of goods which a man took throughout the season?-No.
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5168. Do you think it would be more, or less, an average?-It would be more than the average. I should say that about £3, 10s. would be a pretty fair average in our quarter, taking young men, tenants, and non-tenants all together.
5169. Is it the practice in the trade in Yell to give the fisherman a state of his account at the end of the year?-No; it is not the practice.
5170. Or a pass-book?-We always wanted them to keep a pass-book, but they would very seldom do it. They could not be troubled with it. Sometimes they would take a pass-book and bring it for a few times, and then, perhaps, they would not bring it again for month.
5171. Does that arise from their own carelessness; or is it from a notion that the shopkeeper cannot be troubled entering the goods in a book as they are got, because he is too busy to do so?-I never knew that to be the case; but I have heard many of the men say they had confidence in their merchant, and that they would not be bothered to keep a pass-book.
5172. When that was the case, did you, at the settlement, read over the accounts to the fishermen item by item?-Yes, in most cases; but some men won't be at the bother of even hearing their accounts read over. They just say, 'We know you won't cheat us,' and they hear the sum-total.
5173. Then it is their own fault if they do not know what their account contains?-Of course it is.
5174. Is it the men who make the settlement with you, or their wives?-The men, generally.
5175. Then they don't know what they have got out of the shop, if it is their wives who have been dealing there?-Probably not; but there is a whole day given to the settlement with these men, and they have plenty of time to examine into their accounts if they think there anything wrong.
5176. Did you do anything in hosiery?-I did.
5177. When you bought hosiery goods, did you usually send them to the south?-Yes.
5178. Did you send any to merchants in Lerwick?-I generally sent knitted goods to the south; and the worsted I sent to Lerwick.
5179. You bought worsted yourself?-Yes; yarn made by the country people themselves with their own wool.
5180. What is the usual price for Shetland worsted?-From 2d. to 7d. per cut.
5181. That comes to how much per pound?-We never take it by the pound; we always take it by the cut. 7d. a cut would, I suppose, be about 2s. 6d. per ounce, or 40s. per pound.
5182. Would not that be very fine?-Yes.
5183. Would it be the finest Shetland worsted that is made?-I think it is. I have never bought any finer than that, and I have not been aware of any being bought finer.
5184. Then you sold that to merchants in Lerwick at some per centage of profit to yourself?-Not one cent. I never, in all my experience, got a cent for worsted beyond what I paid for it, and I never asked it.
5185. Do you think the worsted you have mentioned is the finest and dearest worsted that is sold out of the island to any merchant?-I do.
5186. Did you ever know of any worsted being sold out of Yell as high as 80s. or 90s. per pound?-I may be making a mistake the weight. I was guessing 4 cuts to the ounce; but perhaps I may be below the mark. The 7d. worsted I know is very fine; but never weighed it, and I may be making an unintentional mistake in that respect.
5187. The 7d. worsted might be lighter than you suppose, and therefore a pound of it might be more expensive?-Yes.
5188. Is it a common thing to have worsted so fine as that?-No; it is the exception.
5189. The average will be a good deal lower?-I should think 3d. would be about the average.
5190. In dealing with people in Yell, you keep an account with the fisherman?-Yes.
5191. Is there any separate account kept for supplies with the wife and family?-Yes; there are separate accounts kept with them. I don't suppose there are many families in the north in which each member, after arriving at a certain age does not keep a separate account.
5192. Is that in consequence of their being employed in the fish trade, or from their having hosiery of their own making to dispose of?-I don't think it is; but the husband or father is generally at the fishing, and he supplies the heavy goods that are required for the family-meal and such like-so far as he is able. Then the wife has wool, which she either spins into worsted, or perhaps may sell. She comes to the merchant herself with it and makes her own bargain. Perhaps she may be due a little when she comes with this day's supplies for stuff that she has been buying, and anything she is due may be put to her own account; the next day she may have a little over, and that is credited to her account. Then the girls, as soon as they are able to knit, go to the shop on their own account too with their knitting and with their spinning, and the merchant upon his responsibility opens an account with them, if he thinks proper; and they go on with these accounts until perhaps they are married.
5193. Then hosiery is generally paid for in Yell with goods?- There is seldom anything asked for except goods.
5194. The account for goods is added up on the one side, and the account for hosiery on the other, and it is squared up now and then?-The value of the hosiery is generally given in goods at the time when the hosiery is sold.
5195. In Yell the hosiery is always sold; it is not made to order?- No; there is no making to order in Yell.
5196. Is there a separate book kept for those dealings with the females from that in which you enter your dealings with the fishermen?-I think in most cases there is a separate book. At any rate I kept a separate book, but I cannot speak for others.
5197. It has been said that that book is called the women's book: is that so?-That was the name I gave to it.
5198. But you don't know whether other merchants give it that name?-No; but I gave it that name because I had no other entries in it except the accounts had against women.
5199. I understand it was only the home-fishing that you engaged?-Yes.
5200. You had nothing to do with the Faroe fishing?-No.
5201. Do you think it would be any advantage for the merchants or for the fishermen if the price to be given for the fish were fixed at the commencement of the fishing season?-I think that would be an advantage to the merchants, but not for the fishermen.
5202. How would the merchants benefit by that?-Because they would then have no bargain to make with the fishermen.
5203. They would have to make a bargain at the commencement of the year?-Yes; but suppose the bargain were to be, that the fish were to be paid for at 8s. per cwt.; in that case the fishermen would require to own his own boat and his own lines, and furnish them himself, and the fish-curer or merchant would have no risk and no loss, but would just pay exactly for what he got. But in the case as it at present stands, the merchant has to furnish the boat and lines, and salt, and everything connected with the fishing, and he has the chance in North Yell, as is very often the case, of losing £5 or £10 or £15 worth of lines in one day in the deep water. The lines are often left there, and the men cannot get them.
5204. In what why does the merchant furnish the boat to the men?-He buys the boat, and hires it, as well as the lines, to six men.
5205. What is the amount of the hire?-£6 per season for boat and lines.
5206. And that sum is deducted from the credit side of the fisherman's account?-Yes. The six men come forward to me as a fish-curer, and they wish me to [Page 129] employ them for the fishing. I do so, and I give them a boat which, if it is a new boat ready for sea, will cost £20. I also give them new lines, which, along with the boat, will cost altogether from £35 to £40. They agree to pay me £6 of hire for that for the time they use it, and to deliver the fish caught by them with these lines and in that boat to me. No price is fixed for the fish, but it is the general understanding that they are to be paid at the highest currency of the country. Well, they go to the fishing, and perhaps the very first day, as I have known to be the case, they may have lost £15 worth of lines; and as soon as they come ashore, they come to me, and I have to give them other £15 worth.
5207. Do they not pay for the lines they have lost in that case?- Not one penny; I take the risk. The sum which I charge covers all risk, and that is all I get.
5208. Then the fishermen have not much inducement to be careful of the lines or of the boat?-Oh yes; because if they lose lines, they lose fish; and if they lose the boat, they stand a chance of losing their own lives. I have not been a fisherman myself, but I should fancy that no fisherman would willingly lose lines if he could help it.
5209. Is it not the case that fishermen sometimes buy the boat from the curer, and pay for it by instalments running over a certain number of years?-Not in Yell.
5210. You have had no experience of that system of dealing?-I cannot say that I have.
5211. Do you think it is of great importance to a fish-curer here to have fishermen bound to fish for him? Does it tend greatly to ensure his success in the fishing trade?-I don't know very well how to answer that question. I had fishermen bound to me during the period of my lease-about sixty of them I suppose.
5212. Was that a lease which you held of an estate in Yell?-Yes; Major Cameron's.
5213. Did you lease the whole of Major Cameron's property in North and Mid Yell?-Yes.
5214. Were these men all bound to fish for you?-They were leased over to my brother, and I wrought out the business for him, but the men were never compelled in any way. About one-third of them were south-going men, and I should think about one-sixth of them fished to others.
5915. You did not enforce the obligation which you understood them to be under?-No; I never enforced it in any case but one.
5216. Had you always enough men to man your boats with?-We had men belonging to other proprietors, and other proprietors had men belonging to us, and none of us ever enforced that obligation except in one case, and that was merely in order that we might put out a boat to sea. There were five men engaged for the boat, and we could not get another free man, so we had to take one.
5217. Was that long since?-Yes; it was in 1855. But I know of men who have been offered this year and last year to get their money every Saturday night, or every day when they landed fish, and they would not accept it. These were men who were thoroughly clear.
5218. Was it wages they were offered, or a price for the fish they delivered?-A price for the fish they delivered. Suppose they delivered 20 cwt. of fish to me, I would pay them for these fish.
5219. How was the price to be fixed in that case?-It would be fixed at once.
5220. Would it be fixed at the beginning of the year?-Yes.
5221. Is it long since you proposed that arrangement to any man?-It was at the settlement of 1870.
5222. Did you offer to pay certain men in that way at that time?-I did not do it, because I was not in the fishing at that time, but I was present when it was offered. It was the parties for whom I was curing fish at that time who offered the money.
5223. Was that Spence & Co.?-Yes.
5224. The offer was made to men in Yell?-Yes.
5225. And the men declined that offer?-Yes; they declined taking it. They said if they had as much money as would carry them through the year, they would rather not take any more, but that they could trust to the merchants.
5226. Was that offer made to many men?-To all their men in Yell. There were 30 boats, with six men in each boat, and that offer was made to the whole of them at Cullivoe. The same offer was repeated this year, and they still would not accept of it. They accept of not take their cash until the end of the year.
5227. Was that because they wanted to have something at the end of the year with which to pay their rent?-I suppose that would be one of their reasons; but they were afraid that if they got their cash every Saturday, or every fortnight, or every month, they would spend it carelessly and thoughtlessly, whereas they did not have the money, they could not spend it.
5228. Are there any leases in Yell now?-Scarcely any.
5229. Have there been leases introduced lately?-No; but there have been some offered-on Major Cameron's estate, and on Mr. Irvine's.
5230. Do these leases contain any conditions as to fishing?-No.
5231. Were the conditions such as would interfere with fishing, or do you know anything about that?-Mr. Irvine's leases were not such as to interfere with the fishing in any way, and I think there were three persons who accepted them. With regard to the other leases, I do not say they were such as would interfere with the fishings. There was a certain amount of work required to be done on the farms during the year, but I think all that was required could have been done when there was no fishing being prosecuted. At that season, what I would call the fishing was not going on.
5232. But the tenants have not accepted that offer?-There are two on Major Cameron's property who are under lease, I believe, or who understand they are under leases. I am not aware if the lease has ever been signed; I think not.
5233. The poor-rates in your parish, I understand are not so high as in some parts of Shetland?-I suppose not. They are 3s. for 1872-1s. 6d. on the proprietor and 1s. 6d. on the tenant.
5234. Can you say, from your experience as an inspector of poor, that pauperism is promoted in any degree by the system which prevails of settling only once a year?-No; I should not say it was increased in any way by that.
5235. Does not that system of long settlements induce people to be a little careless about their money, and improvident?-There are a certain class who, if they had money, would spend it. That class are pretty well looked after by the fish-curer; they are only allowed advances in such small proportions as enable them to get through the year, and to be as little in arrear as possible at the end. If these same parties had the money in their hands, I am certain it would not last them so long as it does in the fish-curer's hands.
5236. That is to say, he will only allow them a certain amount of supplies from the shop?-Yes; so much a week or a fortnight.
5237. Or cash if they want it, but to a limited extent?-Yes; I should think that cash would be given to a free man.
5238. But not to a bound fisherman?-Not unless it was for a necessary purpose-to purchase something, for instance, which the merchant cannot supply.
5239. If a man is bound to fish to a proprietor or tacksman in Yell, is that man bound to deal at the shop of his employer?-By no means.
5240. By a free man, do you mean one who is not in debt?-Yes. I don't mean to say that cash would be absolutely refused even to a man who was in debt, but it would not be given to him unless it was for a necessary purpose.
5241. Can you explain how beach boys are generally employed in Yell?-Yes, I ought to have a pretty good idea of it.
[Page 130]
5242. Is an account opened at the shop at the same time that the engagement is made in the beach boy's name, from which he can get supplies if he wishes them?-Yes, sometimes.
5243. So that when he becomes a beach boy, he is virtually independent of his father?-Not always. The fish-curer would prefer not to open an account with him until the end of the season, because generally, when a beach boy gets an account opened, he will overrun it if he possibly can. Therefore we prefer not to open an account with the boys themselves, but to deal with their fathers, which we very often do. In the case, however, of an orphan boy, or a boy who has got extravagant or helpless parents, we open an account with himself.
5244. Is there any difficulty in procuring the services of beach boys?-I never knew of any difficulty. I have cured fish since 1859, and I never had power over one, and I never wanted to have it.
5245. You had not power over them even where you had the fishermen bound to you?-No; they have not been bound for the last seven years while I have been curing.
5246. Is it seven years since those fishermen on Major Cameron's estate were bound?-Yes.
5247. At that time did the obligation apply to their families?-No.
5248. Then the boys were not obliged to be engaged to you as beach boys?-No; we took any boy who was most convenient for ourselves, without taking into consideration whose tenant his father was.
5249. It has been said that there is an inclination on the part of the fish merchant to get the beach boys into his debt, so as to secure their services in the following year: is there any foundation for that statement?-I have heard it said, but I never could believe it was the case.
5250. Are the boys always quite ready to engage for that work?- They are always very anxious to engage for it, because always before they enter on hard labour they are able to take a turn on the beach, and they get something for that.
5251. But what they get for it is generally settled for in goods at the end of the year?-No, not generally. If a boy runs an account himself, it is settled in goods; but if it is an account with his father, it is settled in cash.
5252. May the proportion of the boys who have an account of their own be about one-half or about one-third of them?-I should say that for the last three years three-fourths of them have got an account of their own; but then they were not boys. Although they get the name of boys, they were old men and women.
5253. You mean that women are employed in that part of the work?-Yes.
5254. What are their wages?-In 1870 the parties under my control had from £4, 10s. down to 35s. according to age and ability; and in 1871 the people employed were all boys except one man: the boys had from 25s. to 35s., and the man had £3.
5255. Are you still in the fish-curing business?-Yes; I cure their fish for Spence & Co.
5256. Have you a shop now?-No.
5257. Then you simply manage their curing business?-I merely dry their fish for them.
5258. And the persons you have spoken of just now are still employed by you for the purpose of curing?-Yes.
5259. How are their wages paid?-As I was curing Spence & Co.'s fish, if they chose to go to Spence Co.'s at Uyea Sound in Unst, they got supplies there in an account, but only about one-fourth of them did so. The others got their supplies perhaps in the neighbouring shops. I cannot say where they got them, but they got cash from Spence & Co. at settling time.
5260. Was that cash advanced during the season, or was it all paid at settlement?-It was all paid settlement. If they asked for an advance, they would get it, but I was not aware of any being advanced.
5261. But such advances as were made by Spence and Co. were made by taking goods from their shop?-Yes, so far as I know. I also bought kelp for Spence & Co.
5262. Is there much done in kelp there?-Yes, good deal.
5263. What is the nature of that trade? Do you employ a number of people to gather the sea-weed?-It is women who do that. They form themselves into companies of two or three or four; they gather the seaweed and make the kelp, and then bring it to a merchant to sell. I had a lease of Major Cameron's kelpshores, but I transferred that lease to Spence & Co, and afterwards I bought the kelp and delivered it over to them.
5264. Did the women pay anything to the proprietor for leave to collect the sea-weed?-No; but I paid 20s. a ton, or rather Spence & Co. did.
5265. You paid that money for the exclusive right of purchasing from these women?-For the exclusive right of manufacturing kelp., We can employ people to collect it if we choose, but we think it better just to allow the women to do it themselves, without being forced in any way; and then we paid them 4s. per cwt. in cash for it, while we paid 20s. a ton to the proprietor and taxes.
5266. What taxes are there on the kelp?-Poor-rates, both as proprietor and tenant.
5267. Then 4s. per cwt. is the whole payment which these women receive for gathering the kelp and manufacturing it?-Yes.
5268. They manufacture it and bring it to you?-Yes.
5269. Are they paid entirely in cash?-They have been paid almost entirely in cash this year, but not altogether.
5270. They have the option of running an account for it at the shop?-Yes, if they choose to do so; but if they ask cash, they get it.
5271. Are you aware of any restriction being imposed upon tenants in Yell with regard to the disposing of their cattle or other stock on their ground?-I have known an instance or two of that during my experience in North Yell, but very seldom.
5272. Has that been done when they have been in debt to the merchant?-Yes; if they were in debt, almost beyond redemption.
5273. Then the merchant has interfered as a creditor merely?-Not the merchant, but the proprietor.
5274. Was it for his rent that he interfered?-Yes.
5275. In these cases was the proprietor a merchant as well?-Yes, in some cases.
5276. And he has interfered both for his rent, and for the account due to him as a merchant?-I cannot say about him being a merchant. I always understood it was done for rent. I have known of cattle being taken according to law for a shop account.
5277. You mean that they were poinded?-Yes, by a Sheriff's warrant.
5278. But is there any practice in Yell of a man marking his cattle as belonging to a merchant to whom he is in debt?-No; I never knew that done.
5279. Or coming under an obligation not to sell them to any one except that merchant?-I could quite believe that a tenant would offer his cow or his pony, or whatever it might be, to the proprietor; but I am not aware of any one being compelled to do so in North Yell. I have myself marked a cow of a defaulting tenant when I was acting as my brother's agent, and as lessee of Major Cameron's property, but that was for the rent.
5280. Did you mark it and allow it to remain on the ground?- Yes; I allowed it to continue in the tenant's hands until I might think fit to remove it.
5281. Was that man in debt to you as well?-He was in debt as a tenant only for rent.
5282. Was he not also in debt for goods supplied?-No; because he was not a fisherman; he was a sailor.
5283. Would you give a higher price for kelp than 4s. a cwt. if the women had taken payment of it in goods?-No; there was an understanding at one time that parties would get 6d. less if they took it in cash, [Page 131] but for the last two years, in my experience with Spence & Co., and formerly with myself, the women have been quite at liberty to take cash or goods, and 4s. was the price. According to the terms of my lease, I was bound to pay nothing less than 4s. to the parties who made it.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JAMES BROWN, examined.
5284. You are a tenant under Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh at Toab, Dunrossness, and you fish for him?-Yes.
5285. You have heard the evidence that was given by William Goudie and the other fishermen to-day?-Yes.
5286. Do you know it to be correct with regard to the system of fishing there, and the obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes; so far as I can remember, it is correct.
5287. Did it happen some time ago that you had sold fish to another than Mr. Bruce?-It was supposed so.
5288. What was done in consequence?-My house was offered to be let to another tenant. It was publicly advertised at Messrs. Hay's shop at Dunrossness.
5289. The you see the ticket put up?-No, I did not see it.
5290. But you knew of it?-Yes.
5291. And in consequence of what you heard about it, did you go to Mr. Bruce?-Yes.
5292. What did you say? Did you ask why your farm was to be let?-Yes. He told me before I had time to speak that he was forced to offer my house to another tenant. I said there was surely a cause for that, and he said that the cause was that I was selling fish to another man.
5293. To whom did he say you were selling fish?-To Robert Leslie.
5294. Was that the case?-No; I proved it not to be the case. I told him I would bring proof of that if he required it, but I was never called upon to do so.
5295. You satisfied Mr. Bruce that he was under a mistake, and you still hold the same ground?-Yes.
5296. Had you reason to believe that you would really have been turned out of your ground for selling your fish to another than Mr. Bruce if you had done so?-I had every cause to think so.
5297. Why?-Because at the commencement, when he took the fishing into his own lands, there was a letter read in my hearing, to the effect that we were to deliver our fish to him.
5298. Is that the letter which Laurence Smith spoke of to-day?- Yes, the same letter. It was read by John Harper in my hearing.
5299. Do you know whether the meal is dearer at Grutness store than you can get it elsewhere?-Yes; I have got a little there.
5300. Have you bought it cheaper elsewhere?-Yes; I have bought it in Lerwick, and I found it cheaper there than at the store. It was in 1869 that I bought a boll of meal at Lerwick, and I paid £1, 3s. for it, while their meal that season was 24s.
5301. Was there any difference in the weight of the boll at Grutness?-I could not prove that. I had a running account there, and I sometimes got a boll, sometimes half a boll, and sometimes a peck; but when I came to settle, it was all run up into bolls, and I paid 24s. a boll for it.
5302. Had you any reason to suppose that you did not get the same weight in a boll from the store that you got anywhere else?-I made an objection to that, and I was told there was a little deduction made when I got 32 lbs. for a quarter boll instead of 35 lbs, but what that difference was I never knew.
5303. Who told you that?-Gilbert Irvine, the factor.
5304. Did he tell you that he only gave you 32 lbs. for a quarter boll?-I saw the weight myself. What we call a quarter boll is 35 lbs, and what is called a lispund is 32 lbs.; so that there should be a difference between what we call boll weight, and 32 lbs. for the quarter boll.
5305. Then you suspect or believe that you only got a lispund instead of a quarter boll?-Yes; I am under that impression, whether I am correct or not.
5306. Had you not the means of satisfying yourself about that?- Perhaps I might if I had inquired, but I never made any strict inquiry about it.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY SINCLAIR, examined.
5307. You are a tenant on the Simbister estate at Levenwick?- Yes; and I was formerly bound under a tacks-master.
5308. That was Robert Mouat?-Yes.
5309. You were bound to fish for him?-Yes.
5310. Who told you that you were so bound?-He told me himself.
5311. Did anybody else tell you that?-No.
5312. Was it understood in the neighbourhood that you were bound to give all your fish to him?-Yes; all my neighbours understood the same.
5313. Did you at any time deliver your fish to another?-Not one tail. I delivered them all to him during his tack.
5314. Was there one time when he gave you warning to leave?- On one occasion, when we had a good fishing, he sent away 7 cwt. of wet fish and kept it off us. My son was fishing with me at the time, and he went to Mouat; and they rather cast out about it at Mouat's house, and he told my son then that we should not be allowed to sit.
5315. Then it was because of a quarrel about the quantity of fish entered in the fish-book that you got your warning?-Yes.
5316. You were not warned out because you gave your fish to another dealer?-No; that was not the cause of it. Then, Mouat would not give me half of the land to sit in, in case my son sat beside me.
5317. Do you mean that he wanted your son to fish for him?-No; he thought that because they had cast out, if I got any land at all, my son would stay beside me; and that upset my son and made him lose his senses, so that he is now in the Asylum.
5318. How did that upset your son?-Because he was of a quick spirit, and he was grieved that we should have been put out of the land.
5319. But you were not put out of the land?-We were. I went to the sea, and Mouat took my wife to a piece of the hill-side and showed her there where we should build our house on a piece of the open hill.
5320. Did you build your house there?-Yes. He said that if we would not build our house there, we might lie at the back of a dyke.
5321. Did you fish for him after that?-Yes.
5322. Were you bound to do so?-My son would not fish, but I was still upon the land, and I just fished for him.
5323. Did you get your provisions at Mouat's store at Sandwick?-Yes; I could do nothing else than go to him, and he has brought me to poverty.
5324. Did you get your meal and other things there?-Yes; I had to go there for them all.
5325. Did you run an account with him, and settle it when you settled for your fish at the end of the year?-Yes.
5326. Had you ever a balance to get in money?-I had money in his hands when I was put out of the land.
5327. Up till the time when Mouat left the place, were you getting money from him year by year?-I was just getting out of the shop what I required, for I never got into debt to him.
5328. If anything was over did you get it in money [Page 132] at the settlement?-No; but the worst thing he did was he last time when he was going about looking for cattle which he could pick out and put away.
5329. Did he pick out any from you?-Yes. He took the last one I had, and he promised to give me a cow for it next week, but it has never come yet.
5330. Did you get any meal at Mouat's store?-The greater part of it was fit for nothing but the pigs.
5331. Could you have got it better at any other place near you?- Yes; but we could not get money from him, and therefore we had to take the meal from his store.
5332. Would he never advance you money for your fish?-No. 5333. You are not under that obligation now, but you can fish for anybody you like?-I am not fishing now; I am too old.
5334. But the people thereabout can fish for anybody they like?- Yes.
Brae: Wednesday, January 10, 1872.
JAMES HAY, examined
5335. Are you a fisherman at Mossbank?-I am a fisherman, but I have not been at Mossbank. I live at a place called Firth, about a mile from Mossbank, to the south and east of it.
5336. Have you a bit of land there?-Yes; a small farm.
5337. Who do you fish for?-Mr. Thomas Adie. I go to the ling-fishing in the summer time.
5338. What bargain do you make with Mr. Adie about selling your fish to him?-I have never had any bargain made when I commenced to fish
5339. You just make up a boat's crew, and you are paid for your fish at the end of the season according to the current rate?-Yes
5340. Is it the understanding with all the boats' crews that they are to be paid at the current rate?-Yes.
5341. When is the price of your fish paid to you? At Martinmas when we settle.
5342. Have you an account in Mr. Adie's books for supplies to
yourself and your family in the meantime?-Yes.
5343. Do you deal at his shop for all your provisions and your purchases of cotton and other things?-I do, for the principal part of what I need, but not altogether.
5344. How far do you live from Mr. Adie's nearest shop?-About 71/2 miles; his shop is at Voe.
5345. Do you always go there for what you want-Yes; generally I do that, unless sometimes, when I am needing some small things, I may go to another: but I am not bound to go to his shop unless I choose to go.
5346. Then why do you go so far?-Because I generally fish to Mr. Adie, and I have the greatest part of my dealings with him. I have not been accustomed to shift very much, unless it might be an inconvenience to me, and sometimes I have gone to another shop.
5347. How long have you fished for him?-For about fourteen or fifteen years.
5348. When you settle in November or December, have you generally a balance of cash to receive?-Sometimes I have and sometimes not.
5349. Does that depend upon the season?-Yes.
5350. When it has been a good season, you have generally something to receive?-Yes.
5351. How much did you get at last settlement in cash?-I think I got about £19 in money.
5352. What was the amount of your account for goods furnished at the shop?-I had more things in Mr. Adie's hands then than my summer's winnings; I had cattle in to sell.
5353. Had you sold cattle to Mr. Adie as well as your fish?-Yes. I had sold a young stot and a cow; I think they came to about £8.
5354. Were they sold at a public auction?-Yes.
5355. And bought by Mr. Adie there?-Mr. Adie. became good to pay me for them. I could not say exactly who was the purchaser.
5356. The price of these animals was included in the £19 you got in cash?-Yes; I paid my shop account, and then I got that money.
5357. Then, deducting the price you got for your cattle, there is £11 remaining as the price you got for your fish?-Yes; but I owned the boat myself, and I had the other men's hires to get in.
5358. Were these accounted for to you through Adie's books?- Yes. There were five of these hires to be paid; there were six of us in the boat altogether.
5359. What would be their share of the hire?-I think the hire of a boat is 50s.
5360. Then each of them would pay about 8s. 6d.?-Yes.
5361. So that would be 44s. off for boat-hire, leaving little less than £9 as the price of your fish, after deducting your shop account?-No; my share of the summer winning was more than that.
5362. But I am asking you what you got in cash at settlement?-I think it was about £19, or perhaps a little more.
5363. And £8 was taken off for the cow and about 44s. for the boat-hire?-The price of the cow and stot and my summer's earnings were all summed up together, and came to a certain amount; what I had got from Mr. Adie came to a certain amount too, and when I paid that off I had about £19 to get in clear money.
5364. But after taking the price of the cow and the value of the boat-hire off the £19, there would be something like £9 remaining: was that £9 due to you for anything besides your fish? Was anything due to you by Mr. Adie, except the price of the cow and the boat hire, and the price of your fish?-I don't remember anything else.
5365. Then £9 would be something like the price of your fish?-I don't remember.
5366. Have you a pass-book?-I have one but I have not brought it with me.
5367. How much was your shop account?-I think it was about £17.
5368. Then your fish would be worth about £26 altogether: was that the value of your take of fish last year?-No; my fish did not come to that. I think my sixth share came to about £18; but then, as I owned boat of my own, and had the expense of her to pay I was paid a little more than the others, so that I might have more than £18 to get.
5369. How do you square up your account at the shop and your account for fish at the end of the year?-At the end of the year I may have more things put into Mr. Adie's hands than my fishing. For instance last year I had that cow and stot, and perhaps some other things, and these and my fishing are all put together to my credit. Then my out-takes and things I have been requiring from Mr. Adie are put too, and the amount they come to is stated to me.
5370. Is that read over to you, or have you got it [Page 133] already in your pass-book?-Sometimes I have a passbook, and sometimes I don't require one. Sometimes I don't fash with it; that is the truth.
5371. Why is that?-I thought there was very little need for it, because Mr. Adie and I never disputed about these things, and when I had a pass-book I was not very particular about keeping it.
5372. Do you get money advanced to you in the course of the season if you want it?-I never was refused it when I asked for it.
5373. Is there generally something due to you for fish at the end of the season?-Sometimes I have been due Mr. Adie, and sometimes I have had a little in his hand; but, taking one time with another, we are generally square, and I am happy to say we are square in the meantime.
5374. Is there anything you think could be mended in that way of settling your accounts?-I don't know, I am sure.
5375. Was there anything particular you came here to-day to say about it?-There is one thing I would say, that we fishermen never know what we are to have when we commence our fishing. We work away as if we were blind. We don't know what the price is to be until the time of settlement, and then we must just take what currency is given, and we can get no further, and can make no more for ourselves.
5376. Do you think you could make any better arrangement than that?-I don't know, I am sure.
5377. Do you think you would be better off if you made a bargain for a fixed price to be paid to you at the delivery of your fish?-I might be better off with that in one season, and I might be worse off in others; but if I made my bargain for that, I could not grumble, although the fish could be paid better. At settlement I must stand by my bargain. Then, if the price of fish was less, the merchant might lose; so that I don't know which way would be best.
5378. But in that way you would know what you were working for?-Yes; and I would have no reason to grumble if I had made a bargain, even although I could have made a better thing of it in another way.
5379. Have you ever been asked to make a bargain of that kind?- No.
5380. Have you ever proposed it yourself?-I have turned it over, and said that it was a hard thing for a poor fisherman like me to fish and not know what I was fishing for, when other seamen knew what they were working for; but I never came to any conclusion about it.
5381. Do you think, if you were paid in that way in the course of the season as the fishing went on, you could make a better use of your money by purchasing your goods at other places than Mr. Adie's shop?-I could not say much about that.
5382. Could you buy your goods as well and as cheaply nearer home?-I don't think it, because the merchants appear to be all much about the same in our neighbourhood. They have all one price for their articles.
5353. Are the merchants about you all engaged in the fishing business as well as in the shop business?-Not all of them; but some of them are. Mr. Pole engaged in it; he is the principal merchant near us.
5384. Are there some of them who are not engaged the fishing business at all?-There is Robert Murray at Swinister; he is not much engaged in it. His shop about half a mile from where I live.
5385. Would you be as well served there, and as cheaply, as you are at Mr. Adie's and at Mr. Pole's?-I don't think would be any better.
5386. Would it be any advantage to you to have your money at your own command?-I might think so. A man is always glad to have some money to lay his hands upon.
5387. In answering my question in that way, do you mean to say that your money is not at your own disposal?-What I have to get when I settle I get without a word, and it is at my own disposal; but I would not like to take money from a man when I was due him anything. I would like always to pay my debts; and what I had over when I would know was my own, and I would make the best of it that I could.
5388. Does that mean that what money you get before settlement is not your own, and is not at your own disposal?-When I was standing in need of anything and wanted a little money, which I did not have myself, I could go to Mr. Adie when I was fishing for him, and ask him for £1 or £2, and he would give it to me, and then when I settled I would pay it back to him.
5389. That is to say, it would be charged against you at settlement?-Yes.
5390. But do you mean to say that if you get £1 or £2 in that way, you would not be at liberty to spend it as you pleased, and to buy goods with it at any shop you liked?-No. I could go where I liked with it, if I got it from him, because, of course, I would pay it back to him again, and he would not care what use I made of it.
5391. Would you rather have more cash advanced to you during the season than you have in an ordinary way at present, and not get all your goods at Voe?-I could not exactly say about that; I might. If I was paying down cash for the goods, I might get them a little cheaper than by marking them down.
5392. Would you get them cheaper for cash at Mr. Adie's own shop at Voe?-Well, money is a thing that every person is always glad to get hold of; and he might give me 1d. or 2d. down upon an article for ready money, which I would not get if he were to mark it down in his book.
5393. Do you know that you get a discount of 5 per cent. there for cash?-I have got it before. I have got 5 per cent. discount when I settled.
5394. Was that on goods that were entered in your account?-Yes; I have got that. I am not perfectly sure if I will get it this year, but I know that I have got it before.