5395. If you get that when you settle at the end of the year, would you get anything more if you were to pay in cash?-I am not able to say.
5396. You just think you would like to have your money in your hand as you deliver your fish: is that the notion you have?-I don't know whether it would be better to get it in my hand then, or to wait until I got it all at once at the conclusion.
5397. Are there some advantages in both ways of dealing?-I believe there are.
5398. Perhaps you would spend it too fast if you had it in your own hands?-I don't know about that. I would not like to spend it if I had it, unless it was for something that I really required to spend it on.
5399. Are you under any obligation to go to Mr. Adie's shop for the goods you want in the course of the year?-None that I am aware of.
5400. You have never been told it of course; but is it a great deal more convenient for you to go there than to deal at another shop?-No; it is not more convenient. I could go to it shop somewhat nearer; but still I don't think I would be any better; and as it has always been my custom to go there, I just continue to go.
5401. Is it only because it is your custom to go, or is it because you are in the way of delivering your fish to Mr. Adie, that you go to his store?-Mr. Adie has been very obliging to me many times by helping me when I could not help myself, and therefore I always felt a warm heart towards him, and went to his store.
5402. But is it the way with fishermen here, that they got to the shop of the man that they sell their fish to?-I am not able to speak to that except for myself.
5403. Do you not know what your neighbours do? It depends on the circumstances that my neighbours are in. If they are indebted to the man they are fishing to, of course they will go to that man, and perhaps have very little to go to him with.
5404. Are those neighbours of yours who are so indebted also likely to engage to fish for the same merchant during the following season?-Yes. When man is short of money, and has not enough with [Page 134] which to pay his land rent, he may go to the man he is fishing to, and he will help him with what he requires, but the understanding in that case is that he will serve him at the fishing for the rising year. That is generally the way it is done.
5405. Do you mean that when a man gets advances at a merchant's shop, it is understood that he must fish to him in the coming year?-Yes; that is generally understood.
5406. Have you had to do that yourself?-No; I have never been so hard up as that in my time.
5407. You have never been behind at the settlement?-Not very often. Sometimes I have been, and I have got advances from Mr. Adie without a word; but I was intending to fish for him in the coming year before I asked them.
5408. And you would make as good a bargain with him as with any other fishmaster?-I have always thought so.
5409. So that you did not fish to him because you were under any compulsion?-No.
5410. Were you under any obligation to do it because you were in his debt?-No. I have never been so deep in his debt but what, if I had it to do, I could have made some effort to get myself clear.
5411. Therefore the answer you previously gave only meant that there might be some men among your neighbours so far in debt that they were obliged to fish to a particular merchant?-Yes; when he supplied them with goods.
5412. Do you think there are many of those men among your neighbours?-I have no doubt there are more that way than there are the other way.
5413. Do you think that arises from the length of time that passes before you can get your money, or is there anything else you can think of that might mend that state of matters?-I cannot say.
5414. Is there anything else you want to tell me about the way in which dealings are carried on here?-No.
5415. You know you are on your oath, and you bound to speak the truth, and nobody can hurt you for anything you say to-day?-I trust that I shall say nothing but the truth, so far as I know.
5416. From whom do you hold your land and house?-From Mr. Bell of Lunna.
5417. Are you not bound by the terms of your lease to fish for any particular person?-No; he did not bind me to do that. I got liberty to serve myself and to fish for any one I pleased when I took the land from him; only if I went to Skerries I would have had to fish for John Robertson, who had a tack of Mr. Bell's land; but if I fished in any other way, he did not stop me from fishing for any person.
5418. But if you went to Skerries, and fished there during the summer, you would be bound by your bargain to fish for Mr. Robertson?-Yes.
5419. How do you know that that is an obligation upon you?-I was told so by the proprietor when I took the land.
5420. Was that told you by Mr. Bell himself?-Yes.
5421. Did he tell you at the same time, that if you fished elsewhere than at Skerries, you were at perfect liberty to fish for any one you liked?-Yes. He told me I was not bound to fish for Mr Robertson unless I fished at Skerries; but that if I fished at Skerries I must fish for him.
5422. Are there people in your neighbourhood who go to fish at Skerries?-There is one boat which generally fishes there.
5423. But they might go elsewhere if they chose?-I cannot say for that.
5424. Do you know of any person who has been threatened or turned off his ground on the estate of Lunna in your neighbourhood for refusing to fish to a particular person?-I do not.
5425. Are the fishermen there all free?-About us they are, so far as I know: that is about Firth, a mile from Mossbank. There are some of Mr. Bell's tenants who have fished along with me, and there was nothing said to them any more than to me because they did not fish at Skerries.
Brae, January 10, 1872, ANDREW TULLOCH, examined.
5426. Where do you live?-In a town called Brough, near Mossbank.
5427. Whom do you fish for?-I have been fishing for myself for two years, and my fish have been sold to Mr. Leask and delivered at Lerwick.
5428. Do you cure for yourself?-Yes; I get a man to cure my fish.
5429. Do you engage a man to cure the whole fish of your boat's crew?-Yes; it is a small boat. There are three men and two boys in the crew.
5430. Do you think you make more of your fish in that way than if you delivered them green to a fishcurer?-I think so.
5431. Does Mr. Leask buy them from you cured?-Yes.
5432. He also cures fish himself?-Yes.
5433. When is the price fixed for your fish?-I think it was on 1st November last that we were paid.
5434. You take all your fish to Lerwick at once, once a year, and you get your money paid to you at the time?-Yes.
5435. Is it paid to you in cash?-Yes.
5436. Do you deal at any shop of Mr. Leask's?-No. I commonly deal at Mossbank, at Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop.
5437. Do you deal for cash?-Yes.
5438. You pay ready money for what you get?-Yes. Sometimes I take things on credit too; but I am not compelled to do it. I need not do it unless I choose.
5439. Then you are perfectly free to fish for anybody you like, or for yourself if you prefer it?-Yes; and I think it is the best way to fish for myself.
5440. Is that a common thing in your neighbourhood?-It is not.
5441. Why don't the men in your neighbourhood adopt that system if it is the best way?-I don't know. I think for myself, and I suppose other people do the same.
5442. On whose ground are you?-I am on ground belonging to the estate of Busta.
5443. Are the fishermen on the Busta estate all free?-Yes.
5444. There is no tacksman over them, but the fishermen as a rule fish to anybody they like?-I suppose they do; at least, so far as I know, that is the case.
5445. In what way do you think you make more of the fish by curing them yourself than by selling them green?-When I cure them or get them cured for myself, and sell them, I think I can get the turn upon them; and I get cash, which enables me to buy my goods where I can get them cheapest.
5446. Do you get goods cheaper at the shop at Mossbank by paying cash than if you were getting them on credit?-No.
5447. Do you pay the same price for goods there in cash as if they were to be settled for at the end of the year?-Yes.
5448. Have you tried both ways?-Yes.
5449. How long is it since you began to cure your own fish?-It is only two years ago.
5450. How much did you make during the last two years for each man's share?-For the last year we had £8, 13s. each.
5451. Do you think that was more than the average of men who fished for other people?-Yes; taking the price of green fish, I think it was.
5452. Do you know what any of your neighbours got for their green fish?-They got 8s. for ling, and 6s. 6d. for cod and tusk. These were the prices I heard.
5453. Were you fishing during the whole season?-Yes.
5454. How many cwts. of cured fish did you take to Mr. Leask?-I think we had thirty odd cwt. of cured fish; one part of that was ling, and one part was tusk and cod. We had about nineteen cwt. of ling and we sold them at £23.
[Page 135]
5455. When you say that the price for ling is 8s. a cwt., that is the price for green ling?-Yes.
5456. And 21/4 -cwt. of green ling make one cwt. dry?-Yes; that is what the fish-curers calculate upon.
5457. So that nineteen cwt. of cured fish would have been something less than forty-three cwt. green, and you got £23 for that?-Yes.
5458. But from that price you must allow something for the expense of curing?-Yes; it would be from £2 to £2, 10s. per ton for curing.
5459. So that you made some profit by selling your fish in that way?-Yes.
5460. Do you think that, when you cure for yourself, you have any benefit by having the money in your hands to buy goods with where you please?-I think so.
5461. Do you buy cheaper when you have the money in your hands?-Yes; we can buy cheaper in Lerwick than we can do elsewhere.
5462. Do you often buy things at Lerwick?-Some times I do.
5463. I thought you said you bought generally at Mossbank?- Some things I buy at Mossbank; but I buy at several places.
5464. If you were fishing for a particular fish-merchant, would you buy more at his shop than you do when you are fishing for yourself?-That is the general way.
5465. What is the reason for that?-Because a great many of the men have not money to go anywhere else.
5466. And therefore they are induced to go where they can get credit?-Yes.
5467. You think that is not such a good way of doing as curing for yourself, and having the money in your own hands?-It is not; but, at the same time, even when I was fishing to a particular fish-curer, I endeavoured to keep my credit; and if I had asked money from him to go on with, I would have got money as well as goods.
5468. It would not have been refused; but I suppose you would have got more advanced to you in goods than in money?-I could not say that.
5469. Suppose that in July, about the middle of the season, when about half of your fish had been caught, you wanted supplies: would you generally be allowed in the fish-merchant's shop to get any quantity of goods you liked on credit?-Yes.
5470. And would you at that time be advanced any amount of money that you chose to ask?-Yes; on a moderate scale. I could get money as well as goods.
5471. Suppose you were likely to get £20 as the amount of your fish account at the end of the season and that one half of the season was over, would they allow you to run up an account at the fish-merchant's shop to the amount of £10 or £12 to the end of July?-I don't know. I never tried the experiment.
5472. But you know the practice among your neighbours and in the shops where you deal: do you think there would be any objection to allow an account to run up to £10 or £15 for shop goods?-I don't think there would. .
5473. Would there be any objection to advancing you £10 or £15 in money?-I could not say that.
5474. Was that ever tried by anybody you know?-No; I never tried it myself, and I never heard of it being tried, and therefore I cannot say whether it would be allowed or not.
5475. But you have no doubt you would get £12 or £15 in goods?-I have little doubt that I would,-that is, if I were fishing for that particular fish-curer.
5476. What fish-curer were you employed by last?-When I was last employed by any one, it was Mr. Pole, Mossbank.
5477. At that time did you deal at his shop for your supplies?- Yes; for the most part. I dealt more with him then than I have done since.
5478. Your account was settled, at the end of the year?-Yes.
5479. What kind of account had you generally at settling time for supplies to your family?-I cannot recollect exactly how much it was; but sometimes it may have been £3 or £4.
5480. Then you will not be spending so much as that in the shop now?-No; I have not had occasion to do it for the last two years.
5481. Were you under any sort of obligation to deal at Mr. Pole's shop more than at another shop when you were fishing for him?- Not a bit. They did not prevent me from going anywhere I chose. When I chose to ask anything in their shop, I took it at their own price; but if I did not like it, they did not compel me to take it.
5482. Is there anything else you want to say on the subject of this inquiry?-For my part, I have little to say, because I am not so much concerned in it as some men are. I have my freedom and my liberty.
5483. You think that some other men are more interested in these matters than you?-Yes.
5484. In what way are they interested?-Owing to their circumstances; some of them have families, and they must go to the fish-curer and be supplied by him. They get most of their payment in goods, and they cannot get money.
5485. How can they not get money? Is it because they run up an account at the merchant's shop?-Yes.
5486. But they will get money if they ask it?-Yes; they might get money too.
5487. Why is it that they do not get money?-I don't know. What I mean is, that if they run up an account at the shop, they cannot have money of their own with which to buy things cheaper elsewhere.
5488. What makes them run up an account for goods? Is it because they cannot get money easily?-Very likely it is.
5489. But you say they would get money if they asked it?-If they were to ask for money, I don't see any reason why they should not get it as well as goods.
5490. And to the same amount?-I cannot say for that.
5492. Do you mean that the money which they would get if they were asking for it in the course of the fishing season would be regarded as a loan, and not as a payment for their fishing?-No.
5492. Suppose a man were to ask a fish-curer for an advance of money in July, would not that advance of money in July, would not that advance be looked upon as if he were asking for a loan of money?-No; that is not generally the way they would do. If I were fishing to a fish-curer, and giving him my fish, and if I were to ask for some money, it would just go to my account in the same way as if I was taking out goods until the fish were sold at the end of the year when I settled, and my fish would pay for that money as well as for the goods.
5493. But would it not be considered a favour to give money in that way?-I don't think so.
5494. Do you think the fish-curer would be bound to give you money if you asked for it in the beginning of the season?-Yes.
5495. And would he be as ready to give it to you as he would be to give you goods?-No; I don't think he could be expected to do that. However, I cannot say much upon that subject, because I never asked for much money,
5496. Did you think it would be asking a favour to ask for money?-I cannot say.
5497. Did you think the merchant would rather give you goods?- Of course he would expect us to take the goods, from the way of dealing which prevails.
5498. Do you mean that the practice is for the men to get goods advances rather than cash advances during the season and before the settlement?-That depends upon the circumstances of the men who are fishing. Sometimes they require money to pay their rent with, and that is generally advanced to them in money; but when they require goods they usually take them from the fish-curer by whom they are employed.
5499. Do you mean that they don't get money unless it is required by them for some particular purpose?-No; unless they have money to get on their own earnings. If they have money over at settlement time, they will get it in cash when the account is balanced.
[Page 136]
5500. Of course they get it at settlement time; but before then can they get money from the man who employs them, unless for some particular purpose?-No.
5501. Any advances that are made then are made in goods?-Yes; unless they are required in money.
Brae, January 10, 1872, JOHN HENDERSON, examined.
5502. You are a fisherman at Mossbank?-I am.
5503. On whose land do you live?-On Sheriff Bell's.
5504. Are you bound to fish to any particular merchant?-No; not unless I go to the Skerries.
5505. Who do you fish for just now?-For Mr. Pole.
5506. Are you settled with at the end of the year like the other men?-Yes.
5507. Do you deal at Mr. Pole's shop?-Very little.
5508. Where else do you go for your articles?-To any shop where I think I can get them cheapest and best.
5509. You are quite at liberty to go where you please?-I am.
5510. You can deal at Lerwick or at Voe, without running any chance of losing your engagement for the next season?-I can.
5511. Have you generally a good lot of cash to get from Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co., at the end of the year?-I have generally the principal part of my earning to get.
5512. Why don't you deal more at Mr. Pole's store?-Because, when I have money, and can go anywhere else, I can perhaps get my goods a little cheaper.
5513. Is it not handy for you to deal at the Mossbank shop?-It is handy, but it is no great hardship for me to go anywhere else if I think I can get my things a little cheaper.
5514. Can you tell me any articles that are cheaper in the one place than in the other?-Meal, for instance, is always higher in Mossbank than it is in Lerwick. Taking the meal from Mossbank at the retail price, there will be a difference of perhaps 8s. or 9s. per sack on that, and on buying a sack in Lerwick for cash. The sack is 280 lbs. weight, or 2 bolls, and that is a difference of 4s. or 4s. 6d. per boll.
5515. When did you try that?-I have tried it now for a good few years.
5516. Is that the difference if you buy it wholesale,-a sack at a time?-Yes.
5517. If you were buying a sack at Mr. Pole's store, how much would you pay for it?-I have never been under the necessity of buying a sack there. What meal I have bought at their shop has always been in small quantities: perhaps about a quarter boll weekly.
5518. What is the price of a quarter boll?-It is different prices: sometimes higher and sometimes lower.
5519. What did you pay for it last?-I have not had a quarter boll of meal from Mossbank this year at all, because last year we thought it too dear, and therefore we gave up taking it.
5520. Tell me any particular time when you bought meal at Mossbank, and found that at the same time, or within a short time after it or before it, you could have got the same meal in Lerwick for less money?-Not the past summer, but the summer before, I had meal from Mossbank, taking it in small portions as it was required, such as a quarter boll weekly; and at the same date, when I was getting these small portions, I got meal from Lerwick to my own house for about 10s. of difference on the sack,-only the meal that I bought from Lerwick was a whole sack, and ready money was given for it, while the meal bought from Mossbank was in small portions, and it was got on credit until the time of settlement.
5521. Do you think that difference was not accounted for by the difference between wholesale and retail prices?-For instance, would you not have got the two bolls at Mossbank, if you had bought that quantity there, as cheaply as you got them at Lerwick?-No; there would have been 5s. of difference if I had bought two bolls there.
5522. But there would be the expense of carrying the meal from Lerwick: that would be worth something?-That was 8d., and the shipping of it 2d.
5523. Is there any other article you think you have an advantage on in the same way?-Yes; there are different articles. For instance, lines are one principal thing we require, and for my sixth share, I would have nineteen lines in my bundle.
5524. Do you buy your own lines?-I do.
5525. Is it the practice with men fishing for Pole, Hoseason, & Co. to do so?-Some of them do, and some do not; some of them have lines of their own; some buy them and pay for them by instalments; and others hire them. Last year I went to Lerwick and bought my own lines; and my nineteen lines, when they were ready to go to sea, cost me £2, 1s. I heard some of the men who were in the boat say that their portion of the lines, of the same quantity, cost them 51s. or 52s.; that would be paid for at settlement.
5526. Could they have got them cheaper at Mossbank if they had paid for them there in cash?-I could not say for that, because I never inquired into it.
5527. Is there anything else you can mention which you can buy cheaper elsewhere than you can at Mossbank?-If a man has ready money, he will always get little discount wherever he may purchase his goods.
5528. Then I suppose it is the fault of the men themselves that they do not get their ready money from Pole, Hoseason, & Co., and use it as they like?-Mr. Pole won't refuse money to any man who has it to get; or if he knows he is an honest man, he will give him an advance of money, although he does not have it earned.
5529. But if a man could carry on to the end of the year, he would get all the price of his fish in cash?-Every penny.
5530. And then he could do with it as he pleased, and buy where he chose?-Yes; he could go to any place that was cheapest.
5531. Have you heard the evidence of James Hay and Andrew Tulloch?-Yes.
5532. Do you think that what they stated about the system of things here was generally correct?-I cannot say that there was much wrong in what they said; but I think there would not be a better plan than ready money if it could be obtained.
5533. Would not all the fishermen get ready money if they contracted to have a fixed price for their fish, to be paid to them as the fish were delivered?-They would. There is no fish-merchant who would not pay them the value of their fish in money if they have it to get; but how can they get it in money if they take it out in goods? They cannot expect that.
5534. But if the men made a bargain that they were to be paid in money for their fish every time they were delivered, they would not take it out in goods then?-No; they would have money.
5535. Is that ever done? Is the bargain ever made for a fixed price at the beginning of the season to be paid according to the weight of fish when it is delivered and every time it is delivered?-No; I never had that bargain, and I never heard of it.
5536. Have you ever heard of any different bargain from the common one of settling at the end of the year?-Yes; there is sometimes a difference in the bargains with regard to the lines, when men have lines of their own, and do not require to hire them.
5537. But in all those cases the settlement is at the end of the year
5538. Have you heard of any bargain for settling at another time than at the end of the year, and in a different way?-No.
5539. Did you ever know of men agreeing to fish for wages?-Not in the ling-fishing.
[Page 137]
5540. Do you think free men would agree to that?-I don't know: some of them might.
5541. Would you agree to it?-I would just as soon run my own chance.
Brae, January 10, 1872, GILBERT BLANCE, examined.
5542. You are a fisherman at Mid Garth?-Yes; in the immediate neighbourhood of Mossbank.
5543. Do you hold land under Mr. Bell?-No; the landlord under whom I held is dead, and the property is now under trustees. Mr. Sievwright, writer, Lerwick, is the factor for it.
5544. Are you under any obligation to fish to a particular fish-curer?-No.
5545. You can fish for anybody you please?-Yes.
5546. For whom do you fish?-For Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co.,
5547. Do you deal at their shop for all your goods?-Yes.
5548. Do you find that you have generally a balance to receive in cash at the settlement?-No; I have generally had a balance against me. I have never had a balance in cash to receive except in two special years. One of these was one year when they were paying 8s. per cwt. for the green fish; and the other was the past year, when they were also paying 8s.
5549. Do you think you are as well served at Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop as you would be if you took your money and spent it where you pleased?-I don't know much about the difference in that respect.
5550. Have you ever made any comparison between the prices which you pay for your goods at their shop, and what you would pay for them elsewhere?-No, I have never tried that.
5551. What is generally the amount of the balance against you at the end of the year?-It may range from £17 to £5.
5552. Do you get any payments in cash in the course of the year?-No; very seldom. When men are in debt there are no payments in cash; but if I need a little money, I can call upon them for that assistance.
5553. Do you mean when you want money for rent, or anything of that sort?-Yes, for rent.
5554. Do you consider that you are under any obligation to engage to fish for them in consequence of being in debt in that way?-I consider myself obliged to fish to them so long as I am indebted to them.
5555. Have you ever thought of engaging to fish for another company, or attempted to do so?-I have thought of it, but I did not think it was giving them fair play to offer my services to fish for another when I was indebted to them.
5556. Do you know many men, who are fishing to them, and who are indebted to them in the same way?-Yes; there are different men I know who are indebted to them, perhaps not to so large an extent, but still to some extent.
5557. Do they consider it fair to continue to fish to the merchants to whom they are in debt rather than to engage with another?-We hear them say very little about that.
5558. They don't complain?-No; we don't hear them complain much.
5559. Do you think you would get a better price for your fish if you were to engage with any one else?-We might make better bargains with other men, but we cannot attempt to do that in our present way of fishing.
5560. Is that because in the present way of fishing no price is fixed?-Yes; no price is fixed until the end of the year.
5561. Do you think the price fixed at the end of the year ought sometimes to be higher than it is?-We sometimes do think that, because, as has been already stated by the witnesses, although we are fishing for the whole season, we don't know what we are to obtain for our fish. That depends upon the market which the merchant has to make for the fish before he can pay the value of them. The price will range from 8s. to 4s. 6d., according to the markets they make.
5562. The fishermen, I understand, have nothing to do with fixing the price?-Nothing whatever.
5563. Have you ever cured your own fish?-No.
5564. Nor sold them?-No.
5565. Have you any reason to believe that the current price as fixed by the fish-merchants is not the fair value of the fish throughout the season?-Some of the fishermen think they don't get so much for their fish as they ought to get, but perhaps that may be a mistake on the part of the men.
5566. We are all apt to be a little discontented; but do you think there is any reason for that belief more than the natural tendency of the men to discontent?-I cannot say whether there is any real ground for that belief or not.
5567. You cannot tell any case in which you thought you got less for your fish than you ought to have got?-I could not mention any particular instance of that, because we never see the account of sales which the merchants make of the fish.
5568. Do you know when the fish sales take place?-I think it is some time about the month of November.
5569. How soon after that are you told what you are to get for your take?-When we come to settle, either on the last of November or the first of December..
5570. You heard the evidence of the previous witnesses: do you think it was generally correct?-I think it was very correct, so far as I know.
5571. Has your experience with regard to the system of dealing been the same as was described by them?-It has been the same as the last witness described.
5572. But you don't know whether you got goods dearer at Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop than you could get them elsewhere?-No, I don't know anything about that, because all we require, such as meal, lines, calico, and other things, comes from their shop.
5573. What price do you pay for meal?-We don't usually buy meal in wholesale, as the last witness did, but probably in pecks or two pecks or lispunds.
5574. Do you keep a pass-book?-No.
5575. Why not?-Because we trust to the honesty of the merchants.
5576. Do they not want you to take a pass-book?-They would have no objection to us having one, but many of us are not good arithmeticians, and we could not make much of them although we had them.
5577. When you were out fishing, have you sometimes sold your fish to others than Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-I have not been in the habit of doing that.
5578. Is it sometimes done?-Perhaps it is by some individuals.
5579. What is their reason for doing that?-I cannot say what their reason may be, unless it is to have immediate supplies.
5580. Or money?-Yes, or money; but it is commonly for something such as refreshments which they wish to take on their way to or coming from the fishing-ground.
5581. Where do you usually meet the people who buy your fish from you in that way?-Sometimes they are met in the course of our fishing operations at the land's end.
5582. On the land?-No; on the sea in a little boat. They will take any small portion of fish we may give them, and hand us refreshments in return.
5583. Do you get a larger sum for your fish in that way?-No; I never knew of any larger sum that was given in that way than the country currency.
5584. Is that practice what you call smuggling the fish?-I suppose so.
5585. Do you think it is much done?-It is not much done now. Formerly it was done to some extent, but not to any great extent.
5586. I suppose there were some factors or merchants in the country who did it good deal in buying fish on the sly in that way at one time?-I believe there was at one time, but not so much now.
[Page 138]
5587. Did they give a higher price for the fish than the fish-curers give?-Yes.
5588. Was it a higher price than the currency?-Yes.
5589. Are there it few of these men still?-Yes.
5590. They do come from Lerwick?-No; they are just people living in the country.
5591. Do they buy the fish either green or cured?-They will take them more readily green than cured, because they cure them for themselves. The factor who buys generally cures for himself.
5592. Is the man who buys fish in that way generally a merchant who keeps a shop himself somewhere?-Generally he has a small bit of a shop.
Brae, January 10, 1872, THOMAS MOUNTFORD ADIE, examined.
5593. You are a fish-merchant, and the principal partner of the firm of T.M. Adie & Co. Voe?-Yes, the business is conducted in my own name, but my sons have an interest in it.
5594. Do you employ a great number of fishermen?-Yes, a large number.
5595. Are the contracts which you enter into with them different in some of their details?-As a rule they are much the same.
5596. Although there may be some difference, the general rule is, that in the home fishing the fisherman delivers his fish to you at a price that is fixed at the end of the season?-Yes.
5597. Have you tried to arrange with your fishermen for dealings upon any different system from that?-I have not.
5598. Have you not on one or two occasions made different arrangements?-On one or two occasions I have made contracts with some of them for a fixed price.
5599. That price being fixed at the beginning of the season?-Yes.
5600. Has that generally turned out well?-It did not turn out well in these cases. The price advanced in the course of the season, and I had to pay the men the advanced price in order to satisfy them.
5601. Would the men have been discontented otherwise?-Yes.
5602. Is it long since that happened?-It is several years now; perhaps 12 or 14 years ago.
5603. Do you think it would be any advantage for the curer or the fishermen if that system were generally adopted?-My impression is, that the fishermen would suffer, for this reason, that fish in the summer season are always sold at a less price, and any one buying green fish must calculate what he can give for them according to the value of the article then. By delaying the settlement till the end of the season, the fishermen take the chance of the price either rising or falling, but the probability is that it will rise, because salt fish usually sell better in the winter season than in summer.
5604. So that if the price were fixed at the beginning of the year, you think it would generally be fixed too low?-Yes.
5605. But both the fishermen and the master would take into account at the beginning of the season the probability of the price rising in winter, and the fact that it generally does rise then, would they not?-It is scarcely likely that that would be much taken into account; because when a man buys an article he buys it at the price of the day, and not at what the price of it may become. There is no doubt that would be a more satisfactory way of dealing if it could be done but I don't see how it could be adopted, because no curer could offer to buy fish offhand at a price that would satisfy the fishermen.
5606. Is the probability that the fishermen would be discontented your principal reason for objecting to that system?-Yes.
5607. If it could be carried out, would it simplify your own business?-Yes, it would simplify my business very much. If the men had boats, and lines of their own, and did not need any advance, but had all their money to take, and I could pay it at the end of the week, it would simplify matters very much indeed.
5608. Under that system, however there would be difficulty in advancing the men?-We could not give advances to them at all; and if we did not make advances, they could not go to the fishing.
5609. Is the system generally followed in your establishment, that of advancing boats and lines to the fishermen?-Yes, whenever it is needed. There are solitary cases where men buy their own boats, having money laid past; but that is very rare.
5610. When they do so, do they pay the price by instalments, or do they pay down the money?-They pay for them by instalments on a particular principle of payment which has been adopted for the purpose. That principle is this: The boat is built by any carpenter the men choose to employ; the price is paid for it, and that is charged to their account. There is generally a hire of £2, 10s. paid every year for a six-oared boat; that is placed to the credit of the boat yearly, to enable the men to pay up for their boat, so that they may really have it of their own, because I consider it would be better for me if they had them. When the men buy their boats, I give them 3d. per, cwt. additional for each cwt. of fish caught to go to the credit of their boat until it is paid; and when once the boat is their own, they get that additional price into their own private accounts, and it is paid to them in cash whenever the price of the boat is paid up.
5611. Do you mean that you give 3d. per cwt. higher to these men than you give to men who hire a boat?-Yes.
5612. And you give that to a man who has a boat of his own to begin with?-If he has a boat of his own, he gets the 3d.
5613. Then, when you charge for boat-hire, you charge 3d. per cwt. in addition on the price of the fish?-No, we don't charge that, but they get 3d. per cwt. less. For instance, the price this year for ling was 8s. The crew gets settled for that; and if they had been buying the boat, we put 3d. per cwt. to the credit of the account for the boat, in order to enable them to acquire it for themselves.
5614. And you would give the same advantage to man who possessed his own boat originally?-Yes; if he possessed his own boat, he would be better entitled to it, because then I would be running no risk. In the other case, the men might lose the boat, and then I would have nothing to get for it.
5615. But when you charge the boat-hire, the men are obliged to take a smaller price for their fish in addition to having the hire to pay for it?-Yes, and even in that case we are worse off, because the boats cost much more than the amount of the hire will cover. We are better off giving them the 3d. to enable them to get a boat of their own.
5616. I suppose when the boat is their own the men take better care of it, and it will last longer?-Yes, very commonly.
5617. And I suppose they take better care of it even before it becomes their own?-Generally they do, although I have some men who take very great care of their materials even when they are hiring them. There are great differences in men in that way.
5618. Is that a system you have adopted yourself, in order to induce the men to become the owners of their own boats?-Yes, I don't know any other curer who uses it.
5619. That shows that you have no interest in having the men hiring out a boat from you?-No; very far from it.
5620. How long does it generally take for a man to pay off a boat when he buys it in that way?-Buying it in that way, if their fishing was anything good, the boat's crew would clear it in about five fishing seasons.
5621. It would then become their joint property?-Yes.
5622. How long does a boat generally last?-The [Page 139] greatest length of time they are used for is 12 years; but very often they give them up when they are 6 or 7 years old. Perhaps the boat is not good, and they won't risk it any longer.
5623. In that case, do they generally begin a new arrangement for the purchase of another boat?-Yes, for the purchase of a boat, if it is their own. If it is a hired boat, then it is thrown on the curer's hands to provide them with another.
5624. What is the usual rate for a boat-hire throughout Shetland? -I think £2, 10s. is a pretty general hire over all for such boats.
5625. I understand you settle with your own men yearly about December?-We commence settling about 12th November, and it takes us a considerable time to get over the whole of our men.
5626. Has each man dealing with you a pass-book?-No, not all, but the greater part of them have.
5627. But you wish them to have pass-books?-Yes; I should be very glad for them all to have passbooks, if they would only keep them regularly. When it is a careful man, his book is kept regularly, and there is very little trouble with him in taking down his account.
5628. I understand each fisherman employed by you has an account in your ledger, in which each year is balanced at the settling time?-Yes.
5629. That account on the one side contains the debt which he has incurred for furnishings to the boat, boat-hire, and the amount of his shop account, if he has one?-Yes; the boat-hires are generally kept under the head of a company account in name of the master of the boat, as for instance, Thomas Robertson & Co.
5630. Then you have two ledger accounts for your men-one for the boat's crew, and one for the account of each individual?-Yes; we very frequently have these accounts entered in the same ledger; but where the men are fishing at one of our stations, such as Papa, the company account is settled in the station ledger, which can always be referred to.
5631. But in that case the individual man has an account in another ledger?-He has his account in our general ledger at Voe.
5632. The boat-hire is generally charged in the company account; that is to say, all the members of the company are liable for the boat-hire?-Yes.
5633. Do a large proportion of the men whom you employ in fishing have shop accounts at your store?-Yes, a large number of them; in fact, the most of them have accounts with us more or less.
5634. That is, apart from the mere outfit which they require for going to the fishing, they are supplied with goods for their families, both soft goods and provisions?-Yes.
5635. Are these transactions generally carried on upon a system of credit?-Yes, it is credit for the most part; but some men who have money just pay down the money for what they want, and it is not entered in our books.
5636. Are you in the habit of giving a discount when they pay down money?-Yes, if the amount is worth discounting.
5637. Can you say what is the average amount of fisherman's share for the take of fish in any one year?-I was making a calculation of it this morning, and I think that, taking all the fishermen we have employed just now, their takes of fish for the whole year would average about £12, 5s.
5638. Are you able to say what deductions would fall to be made from that sum in the case of an ordinary fisherman?-There would be deducted from it specially his proportion of the boat-hire, and the yearly payment or hire for his lines. Some of them pay a yearly payment on their lines, while others hire them. There will be about 22s. deducted for that, and that is the only special charge that has to be deducted, except what he has got for his living.
5639. Are these special charges due by the individual fishermen or by the boat's crew?-For the lines in all my boats they are due by each individual, but the boat hire is due by them as a company.
5640. You spoke of the lines being got by the men either on hire or by making a yearly payment?-Yes, a yearly payment equal to the hire which they would pay if they were hiring the lines. For instance, the pay for the hire of one of these fishing lines is 8d. a year; but instead of taking that as hire, we credit it yearly to the men, and so soon as it has liquidated the value of the lines they become the fisherman's own property; whereas, if a man gets his outfit and goes to the fishing this season, and does not feel inclined to go another year, then he has only paid the hire, and the lines must be returned to me.
5641. But if a man begins to make a yearly payment by way of purchasing the lines, he is obliged to go on?-He is not obliged to go on if he chooses to give up the fishing altogether; but even in that case it is an advantage to them to have the lines, because they can always make use of the old ones in some way or other.
5642. In the case of hired lines and of that sort of purchase by instalments, where does the risk lie?-The risk lies with the fisherman in both cases.
5643. If the hired lines are lost, he pays for them?-Yes.
5644. And if they are lost while he is buying them, he pays for them also?-Of course; but if he is hiring a boat, and it is lost at sea, he is not liable for that boat.
5645. But he would be liable for the lines in that case?-Yes.
5646. I don't quite see the distinction between the two cases of hiring lines and buying them by instalments in the way you have described. Does it not come to be the same thing to the fisherman in the end in both cases?-No; if he continues to hire them, then, when the lines are unfit for prosecuting the fishing any longer, he must return them to me, and I can make something out of these old lines-perhaps 6d. a line; whereas, if he has been buying them by instalments, they belong to the man himself; and if the lines are of good quality, and he has taken care of them, he may be able to use them for a season or two after the whole payments have been made for them. I have some fishermen who have used their lines at the deep-sea fishing in that way for two seasons after the usual yearly payment has completed the value of them.
5647. The deductions you have now mentioned apply to every case, but at settlement there may be other deductions for the amount of furnishings supplied to the men during the season?- Yes.
5648. Is that the only other deduction which falls to be made in the ordinary case?-Yes. If the man has been running an account, of course that must be deducted.
5649. Are you in a position to say what the ordinary amount of a fisherman's account at your shop will be in the course of a season?-Perhaps the ordinary amount will be from £4 to £5. Some of them will be a great deal more than that; whereas there are some men fishing to me who won't have 3s. worth out of my shop in the course of a season.
5650. The amount differs according to the individual?-Yes, and according to his needs.
5651. Is there a large proportion of your fishermen who close the year somewhat in your debt?-Yes, a considerable number, but not nearly so many as there were some years ago.
5652. Has that been in consequence of a succession of good years?-I think so, but there has been a great change in the habits of the people. I think they are generally more careful now than they were.
5653. Are you able to say from your own observation whether men who are so much in your debt deal more at your shop than others?-With some of the men who fish for me, the greatest difficulty I have is to prevent them from dealing,-not to get them to buy goods, but to get them not to buy them. Of course there are black sheep in every flock, and I have men who, after receiving considerable supplies from my shop, and when I have found it quite unreasonable to allow them to go further, turned round upon me and said, 'Well, if you won't give me what I want I will go to [Page 140] some other body and fish for them.' Of course these are exceptions.
5654. They say that to you when they are considerably in your debt?-Yes; and when they think there is no chance of getting any more.
5655. Then it is not an advantage to a fish merchant or to any merchant, as has been alleged, to have a number of people in his debt?-Certainly not. The best fishermen are those who are not in debt. It is a very sad thing to have to settle with a man who has no money coming to him.
5656. Can you get as many fishermen to engage with you as you want, although they should not be in your debt?-Yes; I can get a man to fish for me more readily who is not in my debt than one who is in my debt. A man who is in my debt will, make all the excuses and trouble in the world, but with a man who is not in debt there is no trouble at all. He sees his way clearly, and it is for the purpose of saving something for his family that he goes to the fishing.
5657. Is it a common subject of complaint with your fishermen, that the price of the fish is not settled till the end of the year?- They do speak of that sometimes; and yet, since the question was mooted in consequence of reports being circulated through the country with regard to the investigation, which you are now prosecuting, they are all up in arms for fear any change should be made.
5658. Have they come to you objecting to any change being made?-Yes, a great number of them have done so.
5659. On what grounds?-Because they think that a change could not be made for the better. For instance, if an arrangement was made to pay them for their fish every week, three-fourths of them could not go to the fishing at all, because they have neither boats nor lines, nor could they get the necessary supplies to enable them to go. Then the price which they would receive for the fish would necessarily be smaller. They have had experience of that at the fishing stations where there was competition, this one trying to barter or smuggle a few fish, and the other smuggling a few fish. They get the very highest price for them which is given at that time; but then at settlement, even with some of my men who have sold a few fish, I have had to pay up the difference between the price they received at the station and the current price which was being paid at the end of the season.
5660. That was only in the case where a higher current price was given at the end of the season than was paid for the fish while the season was running on?-Yes.
5661. Have you been often asked to pay a difference of that sort?-I do it voluntarily.
5662. Was that for fish which you did not get at all?-No, not for what I did not get; that I had nothing to do with.
5663. But you did not get smuggled fish?-Yes, there are smuggled fish sold to me. My boats sell smuggled fish to another curer, and boats belonging to another curer sell fish to my factor.
5664. But why should you pay the difference to your own men upon any fish which they have smuggled to other curers?-It is not upon fish they have smuggled that I pay the difference, but there is a system among my fishermen of having what is called a bucht line. That is a line of his own, the fish caught by which are sold by him in order to supply himself with any small article he requires during the fishing. They settle for these fish at the fishing station; and if the price which is given at the settlement is larger than what they have got at the station, I pay them up the difference.
5665. Is that bucht a device for having a little cash in hand?-A bucht is the term which they give to one of these fishing lines.
5666. But is it a device for having some special wants supplied during the course of the season, and before the settlement comes round?-It is just a fancy they have; because if all their fish went one way, and they asked the money, they would get it. It is merely a thing that has been practised among them for many years, and the practice has been allowed to continue.
5667. Is that a practice in your business only, or is it generally done in Shetland?-It is only done by some. There are many of our men who do not do it, but some of them do it.
5668. Can you give me any idea of the amount of cash paid in advances to the fishermen in the course of the year and before settlement? Do you pay a large sum in that way at your stations?-I should fancy that over the whole of my fishings £200 would cover the whole amount that is paid in advances during the season.
5669. Your fishings are at Voe, Papa Stour, Stenness, and the Skerries?-Yes.
5670. At each of these places you have a factor and a shop for supplying goods?-Yes; we must have a store.
5671. Are these stores kept open all the year round?-At Papa and the Skerries they are: at Stenness the store is only kept during the summer fishing season.
5672. And the shop there only supplies the fishermen with what they need for their own personal use, and not with what they require for their families?-Just so; but sometimes those men who have their families in the neighbourhood get a little for them also,-a little tea, and such as that.
5673. You say the amount of the shop account will be from £4 or £5 on an average; so that, after making other deductions, that will leave something like £4 or £5 payable in cash to an ordinary man at the end of an ordinary season?-Yes; but there are a great many of them who have a great deal more than that to get.
5674. Of course the amount differs according to the seasons, and according to the individual; but do you think that would be a fair average?-I should say that about £6 might be taken as an average of the amount paid in cash.
5675. Does that apply to all your stations?-Yes, to them all.
5676. What is the number of fishermen upon your books altogether?-I should fancy about 400.
5677. Are these all employed in the summer fishing?-Yes.
5678. Is there any reason why the whole price of a man's fish should not be paid to him in money?-The only reason is that he has already got part of it in goods. Of course we cannot pay for it in goods and in cash also.
5679. But is there any reason why he should take it in goods unless he likes?-None whatever, unless he likes. There is no compulsion put upon any of the men.
5680. Don't you think he would be better off if he got the money, and paid for the goods in cash as he wanted them?-It is quite possible that he might fancy so; but I cannot see that it would make much difference. We always deduct the 5 per cent. from the goods the men have got, the same as if they were purchasing them for cash.
5681. So that you make no difference between cash payments, and paying for them in account in that way?-None in that respect.
5682. Why is it that you give that amount back in the form of a discount, instead of charging your goods originally at the same price?-Of course if a man buys a quarter of a pound of tea, or half a pound of tobacco we cannot take a discount off that; but we put the whole of the transactions together at the end of the season, and a discount is then allowed. If he bought the whole over the counter, he would pay the price down at once; but he has an advantage by these small items being added together, and the discount taken off, which he would not have if he paid for the articles separately.
5683. So that you really give a larger discount upon your credit dealings than, upon your cash dealings?-Yes; the fisherman has a greater advantage by having a discount upon these small purchases when they are all taken together, than he would have if he were paying for them separately. The discount upon two ounces of tobacco or a quarter pound of tea would be a mere bagatelle; but when the whole of his purchases [Page 141] in the course of the year are added together and the 5 per cent. taken off the whole, it comes to something. With our fishermen, as a rule, I consider that these accounts are perfectly good, and the same as if a man were purchasing for cash.
5684. What do you mean by saying that they are perfectly good?- I believe we are safe in making these advances to the men.
5685. That is because you have a security?-We have no security.
5686. Have you not the security of the fish?-Yes, we have that security, if he catches the fish.
5687. Is it upon that principle that you fix the prices at which you sell your shop goods?-Yes, generally. Of course, if we calculated upon it being really a bad account, we would require to charge larger percentage in order to cover the risk; but we would rather get clear of a man of that kind.
5688. Do you mean that, when a man is an unsafe customer, you put a different price on the goods which he buys?-I don't put a different price on them; but I try to give him as little as I can, although there are some of these men whom it is very troublesome to put off without giving them something.,
5689. Is there a competition for employment among the men to be taken on as fishermen for the summer season?-Yes, considerable.
5690. Are there men sufficient to man any number of boats you wish?-Well, I might be too greedy, wish more than I could manage; but I have found no difficulty hitherto in manning as many boats as we could reasonably manage.
5691. You supply your men with groceries as well as soft goods?-Yes; groceries, soft goods, and meal.
5692. In fixing the prices of these goods, both the groceries and soft goods, do you allow it margin for profit, just the same as any merchant would do in Lerwick, or Wick, or any other town?-I should fancy it is much the same. Of course, groceries being an article of daily use, we charge a less percentage on them than we do on soft goods. Very often soft goods lie on our shelves for a considerable time, and get damaged, and become unsaleable.
5693. But I suppose that would be the principle on which the retail price would be fixed if you deal in only one kind of these articles, or if you were selling them in any other place than Shetland?-Of course; that is the principle on which business is conducted anywhere. I think that goods, for instance soft goods, are sold by us in retail fully as low as they are in the shops in the south; even as cheap as they are retailed in Edinburgh. That is easily accounted for; because they have much larger rents to pay in Edinburgh than we have here.
5694. Do you say the same with regard to provisions?-I think there is not much difference on provisions; only the difference for freight and insurance. Of course, at a place like Voe, the transport of bulky goods comes to be very expensive. For instance, at this season of the year, we cannot get a sack of meal from Aberdeen to my house under 5s.
5695. The meal generally is imported about the end the season?- Yes, generally.
5696. Did you hear the evidence that was given today by some of the witnesses about the price of meal?-Yes.
5697. Are you in a position to say whether the price of meal at Voe is higher than at Lerwick, or about the same?-It is higher than at Lerwick as a matter of course, because we have considerable more expense in bringing it here. We have to bring it up to Brae by water, then cart it across the isthmus, and bring it to my house in boats. When the weather is bad, we have to cart it all the way.
5698. Therefore the price of meal with you is considerably higher?-Yes; and of any bulky article which requires a considerable deal of handling and expense of transport.
5699. What do you suppose the difference is between the price of meal at Voe and the price at Lerwick?-I should fancy about 2s. per boll
5700. Will the difference be that throughout the year?-I think so; but sometimes in the spring we manage to get a vessel to bring it in direct; and then we can sell it as cheap as they do at Lerwick.
5701. Have your men ever made any complaint to you about the price being higher than it ought to be?-No.
5702. Is the price stated to them at the time when they get the meal, or is it generally fixed at settling time?-They know the price of every article when they buy it
5703. Do you calculate that the profit upon your provisions and soft goods, or the profit upon your fish sales, is the greater?-I cannot say.
5704. Have you the same percentage of profit upon both?-No; on the fish sales it is only 5 per cent.
5705. Is that just a commission?-Yes.
5706. That is to say, the payment to the men for the fish, the cost of fitting them out when you do so, and of your curing establishments, will come up to within 5 per cent. of what you sell them for to your buyers in the south?-Yes; and then we have to run the risk of the payments. The fish are all sold on three months bill. Our fishermen are all settled with this year, and I have not touched a sixpence for any of our fish yet.
5707. Does the 5 per cent. cover that risk?-Yes. Of course, if we discounted these bills, that would run off with 11/4 per cent. of it, but we just wait until the bills are due.
5708. Then, if you were under the necessity of paying your fishermen entirely in cash, and did not carry on your shop business, would you be obliged to charge a higher profit upon your fish, or to pay the fishermen less for the fish?-If I had no shop at all, and merely traded in fish, I would require to deal more in them than I do, in order to make a living out of it.
5709. But you can afford to take a smaller commission on your fish than you would otherwise do, by reason of the fact that you are carrying on another business at the same time?-Yes.
5710. You are making two profits, although one of them may be a very small one?-The one profit is entirely at the option of the fisherman. He is not obliged to buy the goods unless he chooses.
5711. Perhaps not, but he would likely require to pay that profit to another merchant, or certainly to pay some profit, and you would expect some of that to come to you?-Yes; every one expects some profit. I employ a good many hands about Voe curing fish. These are invariably settled with in cash, if they are able to do without any supplies during the week, but they are always settled with at the end of the week.
5712. Theirs is a weekly payment?-Yes.
5713. But they get supplies during the week?-Sometimes we are obliged to give them something, otherwise they could not work.
5714. And that is deducted from their weekly pay?-Yes. At the stations the curers are generally engaged at a sum for the season.
5715. In what form are the supplies given at your shop deducted from the weekly payments at Voe?-For instance, if the girls working at the fish have earned 5s. a week, and if they have got 2s. worth of goods, they have only 3s. to get.,
5716. But in what way is it noted that they have got that advance in goods?-We keep an account of it in our book.
5717. Is there a ledger account for each worker?-We have what we term a jot ledger for these weekly accounts. We do not carry them into our regular working books.
5718. How many people are employed in that way?-I have known as high as sixty; they will run from thirty to sixty.
5719. Do those people ever ask you for cash in the course of the week?-Sometimes they do but not very often. The length of time between the pays is so very short that they don't require it, but if they are in need of cash they get it.
5720. Do they prefer to take their advances in goods?-They prefer to take their payment at the end of the week.
[Page 142]
5721. But when they require goods in the course the week, do you give them to them?-Yes; goods and cash are much the same thing to them; for if we gave them money, they would just turn round and buy the goods. If they went anywhere else, they must lose a day's work in going to it.
5722. I suppose that is one reason why the system of fish-curers having stores for shop goods exists, because their shops are at such inconvenient distances from each other?-Yes; the people would lose so much time in travelling to other places in order to get their goods, that we require to keep shops for them. If their time is of any value to them at all, the fact that they have a shop on the spot far more than compensates them for any difference they may pay in price.
5723. But if there were no such shops as yours, would there not be a class of dealers throughout the island who would provide the goods that the people want?-I don't know; perhaps there might be such.
5724. Does a fisherman not incline rather to deal with the employer to whom he delivers his fish, than with another?-I think so. The fishermen and their employers are generally on a friendly footing, and the man is satisfied that the curer he is fishing to will do as fairly to him as possible if he is a deserving man. I consider he gets every advantage that he could naturally expect, and it is an object with the fish-curers in every way to encourage steady careful men.