6531. Was that what you spoke of just now when you said you did not send men to the cod fishing?-I meant I did not send men to the Faroe fishing.
6532. Then by the ling fishing you mean the summer fishing?- Yes.
6533. And in that the men catch cod and tusk?-Very few; and what they get are thin and of an inferior quality.
6534. But ling is the staple fish that is caught at that time?-Yes.
6535. Your accounts with your men are settled annually in November or December?-Yes.
6536. Do you find that the majority of your men have then a cash balance to receive, or are they in arrear?-I am afraid I must acknowledge that the majority of them are in arrear.
6537. Do you think the system of paying at such a long interval of time has any effect in causing the men to be so deeply in your debt?-I don't think so.
6538. Do you think it is their own choice or their own habits that is the occasion of it?-I daresay there are various causes that contribute to it. There may be some improvidence among them; there may be afflictions among them of various kinds. There may be men getting married, and getting families; and it is a sore time with them when their children are small.
6539. Have you ever considered whether a system of shorter payments could be introduced in your business which might encourage habits of economy and foresight, and lead the men to keep out of debt?-I have given that point some careful consideration.
6540. You have already said that you introduced a [Page 159] system of giving a premium to your men who were free of debt?- Yes.
6541. But has any other plan for bringing about the end occurred to you?-I don't think there is any other.
6542. Are you aware that the men sometimes express a wish that they should know the price of fish earlier in the season than is the case at present?-Yes. That has been expressed to me sometimes by the men themselves.
6543. Do you think that would have any beneficial effect?-I don't think it. In the winter fishing we have paid for the fish as soon as the men came on shore with them, but I was not aware that they saved any of that cash in consequence of receiving it at once, any more than they would have done if it had been put to account.
6544. Is the winter fishing generally paid in cash?-Yes if the men require it.
6545. Is it more commonly paid for in cash at the time of delivery than is the case in the other fisheries?-The men have the choice of getting cash or goods, just as they like, for their winter fish.
6546. I rather understand they have the choice of getting cash or goods in the other fishings as well at any time if they like: is not that so?-I think not. I think they would not get cash unless they were clear men, or unless we had good cause to know that they were really in necessity for something.
6547. But during the course of the summer fishing are they allowed advances in goods as they require them?-Yes.
6548. Even though they should be to some extent in your debt?- Yes.
6549. If a man is clear at the end of a season, and is fishing for you during the following season, is it usual to give him advances in cash to account of his fishing as often as they are asked?-Yes.
6550. Is it ever the case that a man who is in that position gets some payents in cash throughout the season, and is paid the whole balance in cash at the end, and has no account at your shop at all?-I think not. I have never been aware of any case of that kind.
6551. Is that because the man necessarily has to apply to you for an outfit for the fishing at the beginning of the year, such as lines or boats; or is it because he may have an account for necessaries to his family?-He is not obliged to get his outfit or his necessaries from me unless he likes. There is no obligation upon him.
6552. But, in point of fact, he generally does get an outfit from you?-Yes; we are always glad to get them to buy an outfit from us.
6553. Whether he gets a boat or not, I suppose the general rule is that he takes his outfit from you?-Yes; that is the general practice.
6554. Is a man expected to do that when he is engaged to fish for you?-I certainly would expect it but he is under no obligation whatever.
6555. If a man were engaging with you to fish for the summer, and getting his outfit elsewhere, say at Lerwick, would that make any difference in the way in which you would deal with him afterwards?-None whatever.
6556. Would he be just as likely to get an engagement from you in the following year, and as good a price for his fish?-Yes.
6557. I understand you have the largest shop in this parish?-I am scarcely able to answer that, but I suppose it is the largest in this district. Messrs. Hay & Co., at North Roe have an extensive business also.
6558. Is North Roe as populous a district as Hillswick?-Yes.
6559. Then there is the shop of Mr. Adie at Voe?-Yes; that is a larger business than mine.
6560. And Pole, Hoseason, & Co. at Mossbank?-Yes.
6561. Do these shops rank in size along with yours?-Yes; and Hay & Co.'s shop at North Roe.
6562. But there are smaller shops throughout the country not kept by fish-curers?-Yes. Mr. Peter Robertson, Sullem, and Mr. Gilbert Nicholson, Ollaberry, are not fish-curers. Mr. Nicholson has been engaged in that business to, but not on his own account.
6563. Do these shopkeepers sometimes buy fish?-I think so. I think Mr. Nicholson buys cured fish in the winter, near the sea.
6564. Is it a common opinion that there is a good deal of smuggling of fish by fishermen during the fishing season?-I believe it is.
6565. Is that done for the purpose of getting payment in ready money; or is the inducement for it, that they get a larger price by disposing of their fish, in that way?-I don't think the payment of ready money is the inducement, because for many years past it has been my practice to send out money to the factor, with which to pay the men for whatever fish they wanted to sell,-that is to say, to clear any little bits of debt they had to pay at the station.
6566. But the men that you spoke of are bound by their engagement at the beginning of the year to deliver all their fish to you?-That is an understood thing, I believe; but I don't think it has ever been acted upon.
6567. Are they at liberty to sell their fish to others?-They generally take that liberty.
6568. So that only those fish go into the account which are weighed by your factor?-Yes.
6569. Do your factors at these fishing stations pay ready money for any large quantity of fish that is delivered to them?-I don't think there are any large quantities paid for in ready money. I believe the men generally give fish in that way to procure supplies. Perhaps they might think my goods were not equal to Mr. Adie's or those of other merchants, and they might give a few fish in that way to these merchants in order to get money with which to clear off their little bits of accounts there.
6570. That is to say, a man fishing for Mr. Adie might sell a few fish to your factor in that way, or one of your men might sell to Mr. Adie just in the same way, in order to get a little money for his present needs?-Yes.
6571. Can you give me any idea from your books to what extent that sort of ready-money payment goes on during the summer season?-I could scarcely say. I should think that perhaps £5 or £6 would cover the whole of that for the entire season, because there are some of the men fishing to me who will ask the factor to give them a pound in cash or so just at the end of the season.
6572. Therefore they don't require to smuggle the fish so much as one might suppose?-No.
6573. Do you consider that the tenants on the Ollaberry estate are obliged by the terms of their leases to fish to you only?-I do not; although I think I have it in my power to compel them to fish if I wished to do so.
6574. Do you think you have that in your power by the terms of their leases?-I think there is only man who has a lease at present.
6575. Or by the terms of the contract under which they sit on the land?-I think that is understood.
6576. That is a part of their bargain?-It is not part of their bargain, but I think it is understood.
6577. When a man is in your debt in the way you have spoken of, do you think he has a stronger inducement to deal at your shop for the goods he requires, and to agree to fish for you during the following season, than another man who is not in debt?-I am not very sure about that.
6578. I suppose you would consider it fair that man who is in your debt should deliver his fish to you rather than to another, in order that he might pay off your debt?-Certainly.
6579. And also that he should take his supplies from your shop, so far as necessary?-Yes, I would expect that.
6580. Is it also the feeling among the men generally, that they are inclined to deal with a person who has advanced them money or goods in a bad season? [Page 160]-I think they would have no objection to deal in that way.
6581. You I would probably have rather to keep them within limits in their dealing, for fear they should get too much?-Yes, I think that is quite right.
6582. Perhaps they have no credit elsewhere?-I daresay they might have credit elsewhere too. Probably they might have other things, such as produce of different kinds from their farms with which to clear off their small accounts in other quarters, and which might not come my way.
6583. Do you not deal considerably in farm produce yourself?- Yes; in cattle and other things.
6584. Do you send them south?-Yes.
6585. Do you purchase these generally for cash, or do your purchases in that way enter the accounts of the men who fish for you?-That just depends on the way the men want them. I make a practice of purchasing all stock for cash; but if they wanted it entered in their accounts, I do so.
6586. Are these purchases generally made at periodical sales?- Yes, we have two sales in the year at Ollaberry; but I purchase a good many cattle and horses just at any place where I can get them through the parish.
6587. Suppose you made purchases of that kind from a man who owed you a certain amount in your books, would these purchases enter your books to his credit, or would they be paid in cash?- That will depend upon our bargain. If a man said to me, I have a cow to sell, and one part of the price I want to go to pay my rent, and the other part I want put into my account, I would do that for him. I have done that frequently, although the man was in my debt.
6588. You said there were 120 fishermen in your books at Hillswick?-That was a mere random guess; I could not speak to it positively.
6589. Have you a number of men in your books at other places?- Yes, at Ollaberry; but that shop is under a different firm Anderson & Co.
6590. Is that shop kept by Mr. Irvine?-Yes.
6591. Do you take the principal oversight of the business there?-I do.
6592. Then, when you spoke of the fishermen on the Ollaberry estate being obliged to fish to you, I suppose you meant that they were bound to fish for that firm?-Yes.
6593. Is there any other station besides Ollaberry where you have a shop and fishermen upon your books?-No other station, except the fishing stations I have already mentioned.
6594. These are not permanent establishments, but are only kept up for the summer season?-There is a man who takes winter fish at Stenness and at Hamnavoe.
6595. But there are not so many men residing there?-No.
6596. And it is only from those who reside on the spot there that you receive fish in winter?-Yes.
6597. How many men may be engaged in the fishing at the Ollaberry station, and who are entered in your books as employed by you?-Probably between 50 and 60.
6598. Then you may have about 300 fishermen the summer fishing, including the other stations you have mentioned?-I think scarcely so many.
6599. One of the books which you have produced here is a woman's book?-Yes.
6600. That has relation to hosiery and kelp?-Yes.
6601. You have not brought any books relating to the fishing business, but I suppose you will be ready to show them if you are asked?-Certainly.
6602. In what way do you engage your beach boys?-Some of them are engaged about December, but perhaps it is the spring before we get them all. We engage them for an annual fee,-that is to say, a fee for three months in summer, or for summer and harvest. The rates we pay them vary from about 45s. to £10 for time summer and harvest.
6603. Do those to whom you pay £10 have charge of the curing?- Yes; I have given the whole range.
6604. There are two classes of them-the beach-boys proper, and the men who are skilled at the work?-Yes; and the man who has charge of the curing.
6605. Are both those classes settled with at the end of the year?- Yes.
6606. Do the men employed in the curing get payment before the end of the year?-No.
6607. I believe at some establishments the men employed are paid by weekly wages?-I am not aware of that.
6608. Do you open an account with them in the same way as with the other people employed by you?-Yes.
6609. And if they want supplies they get them at your shop?-Yes.
6610. Do you find that the amount of debt upon these accounts is greater or less than in the case of ordinary fishermen?-We generally strive not to allow them to get into debt.
6611. I don't mean the amount of debt above their salary, but the amount of debt they incur for furnishings in the course of the year: is that greater or less than the amount due to them for their fee?-I think it is generally less, taking the whole cases together. There may be some cases where they fall behind little, but there are others again who have money to get.
6612. Have they generally a considerable balance to receive in money at the end of the year?-No; when boy has paid for his clothes and provisions, he will not have very much to receive.
6613. Does a beach boy generally require an outfit of clothing at the beginning?-Yes.
6614. Is it the sons of your fishermen whom you generally employ as beach boys?-Very often, but not necessarily; I just engage any one I can get.
6615. Is there a sufficient supply of them?-There has always been hitherto.
6616. When a boy who is engaged for the first year gets more goods than the amount of his fee, does he usually engage to work for you in the same employment next year?-No.
6617. You are aware, I suppose that that has been alleged as the commencement of the system of debt which is said to prevail in Shetland?-I am perfectly aware of that.
6618. Is it not consistent with your experience that a boy who overdraws his account in that way continues to serve you as a beach boy?-I am sorry to say it is not, because sometimes he goes elsewhere and leaves a balance standing.
6619. Is that a frequent thing?-I cannot say it is a very frequent thing. I am glad to say that a great amount of honesty prevails among the people generally.
6620. But is it not quite possible that he might go elsewhere and pay his account to you from the wages he receives elsewhere?-It is quite possible.
6621. Does that ever happen?-I think it has happened with me.
6622. Is a boy free to do that if he chooses?-Perfectly free.
6623. But, in point of fact, do the majority of boys who are so engaged, and who overdraw their accounts during the first year, remain in your service and work on until their account is paid up?-I could scarcely say that that is so with the majority.
6624. But many of them do?-Many of them do, I think.
6625. Do they generally get further into your books, or do they very often clear off their debt as they grow older and get larger wages?-I think they often clear off their debt.
6626. Is it boy at the commencement likely, from his circumstances, to incur a larger debt in the first year than after a year or two, in proportion to his earnings?-I think not. It depends, however, a great deal upon the parents. If a boy has poor parents, who cannot afford to give him much clothing the first year, to keep him warm, he must get these things from me and perhaps he may fall behind, and yet be a very honest boy.
[Page 161]
6627. But what I was pointing at is this, that a boy may require some outfit at the beginning of his career, and that he would probably incur some debt?-That is true in some cases, but not in all. A boy has been at the beach, and then he goes to the haaf; perhaps the first year or two he will require to fall a little behind; but if he is an honest, provident lad, he will soon clear off that.
6628. I understand you are a purchaser of kelp to some extent?- Yes.
6629. Have you heard the evidence that has been given to-day on that subject?-Yes.
6630. Was that evidence correct with regard to the manner in which the kelp is paid for; or do you wish to make any correction or addition to it?-It was perfectly correct, so far as the prices go. 4s. is the cash price, and 4s. 6d. is the goods price which we pay for it.
6631. You pay for it either in cash or goods?-Yes.
6632. In which way do you make the greater part of your payments for kelp?-I should think the greater part would be in goods
6633. Is that because you allow a higher price in goods, and the people prefer taking that higher price?-Certainly. I have no doubt they prefer it; otherwise they would not take it in that way
6634 I suppose if they got it in cash, they could not spend it very easily anywhere else than in your own store?-There are various shops round about where they could go to.
6635. Has that difference in the price of kelp been of long continuance?-I think there has not been very much difference on it for several years.
6636 But has it been long the practice to give an advanced price if payment is taken in goods?-Yes; that has always been the case during my experience. There have always been two prices, at least at Hillswick.
6637. Have you any lease of the kelp shores?-Yes; all round from Roeness Voe to Mavisgrind, on the Busta estate.
6638 Do you generally employ women, or allow any women to gather kelp and burn it?-Yes; sometimes men do it also.
6639. But they are not at liberty to gather it for any one except yourself?-No; that is quite understood.
6640. Have you to pay a lordship to the landlord for the kelp?- Yes; 15s. per ton.
6641. You do something in the hosiery business also, and you have brought your women's book to show how that business is conducted?-Yes.
6642. Is the hosiery always paid in goods?-Not always.
6643. Have you any idea what amount is usually paid in cash?- There is very little cash paid. Our general practice is, not to pay cash for hosiery, but to give goods only.
6644. Is that because you consider you have a very small profit on the hosiery?-Yes.
6645. What percentage do you calculate you have upon it?-I am afraid my experience has been, that I have never had any profit upon it. I have a profit on the goods, but not on the hosiery.
6646. Do you sell your hosiery generally to firms in Edinburgh or Glasgow?-In London, Edinburgh, Glasgow, or any place where we can get it sold.
6647. But you sell it direct to retail houses in these places, and not through Lerwick merchants?-Yes.
6648. Do you employ women to knit for you, and give out wool to them?-No.
6649. Yours is exclusively a purchase business?-Yes.
6650. Do you make a bargain for the article, whatever it may be, on the understanding that the woman is to take goods for it?-Yes, that is the understanding; but still I have paid cash in a good many cases.
6651. If you want a very fine article for any particular purpose, do you then sometimes agree to pay in cash?-Yes; if they wanted cash for that, we would give it.
6652. Would you give a lower rate in cash than in goods?-Yes.
6653. What difference might there be?-I cannot tell.
6654. Will it be 2s. or 3s. in the pound?-I should think so.
6655. Are you often asked to give cash for hosiery?-No.
6656. Do the people who bring it generally want goods?-Yes, they want goods; but the practice may arise too from their knowing that the understanding is, that they only get goods for the hosiery.
6657. In the case of a woman not wanting the goods at the time, is the article she brings entered to her account, or how is it dealt with?-It is entered to her account.
6658. She has a ledger account of her own in your books?-Yes.
6659. Or a pass-book?-Yes; many of them have pass-books.
6660. When a young woman begins to knit in that way, and to deal with you, does her account generally run on for a succession of years?-Yes, very often.
6661. Is it in what you call the women's book that these accounts are entered?-Yes.
6662. The goods supplied to them, I presume, are mostly soft goods?-Yes; soft goods and groceries.
6663. Do you give the same value in groceries hosiery as in soft goods?-No; not the same value.
6664. Is it part of the bargain at the beginning, whether the payment is to be taken in groceries or in soft goods?-There is no agreement of that sort.
6665. If a woman asks for groceries, what do you do?-We just give them to her.
6666. But you say you don't give the same value in groceries as in soft goods?-Not exactly the same value.
6667. Do you mean that when she gets groceries, you give them to her at a higher price?-Yes.
6668. You add something to the price for which you would sell them to a cash customer?-Yes.
6669. Or to a fisherman who keeps an account?-Yes.
6670. A fisherman keeping an account would get his groceries at a different price from a seller of hosiery?-Yes.
6671. Do you not think that a cash system for all these matters would be simpler and more convenient for all parties concerned?-I don't see that there would be any gain to the purchaser. Suppose a woman came in with hosiery of the value of 5s. and got cash for it, she would require to go either to my shop or to some other shop with it for her goods.
6672. But if she had cash, she might purchase her goods in Lerwick or in Edinburgh, or possibly, if the trade were not in so few hands, there might be a greater competition?-There might.
6673. And she could lay out her cash in the way that was most to her own advantage?-That might be so; but then I would not give her so much in cash for her hosiery, so that I don't see where her gain would be.
6674. Is it mostly in provisions or in goods that the hosiery is paid?-I should say that it is mostly in goods.
6675. Is the account which a woman, knitting in that way, runs up entirely distinct from the account kept by her parents?-Quite distinct.
6676. If she is living in family with her father, is he considered responsible for her debt if the balance is against her?-No.
6677. Have you known any case of such a debt being enforced against the father?-I am not aware of any, and I don't think it could be enforced against him.
6678. Or demanded from him?-I don't think it could be demanded either, legally. But the necessity does not exist for girls buying groceries. These are generally bought by the father or brothers; and the girl is left free to have her knitting to clothe herself with. It is all the wages she gets.
6679. Show me the way in which the women's book is kept?- [Produces women's book]
[Page 162]
6680. Each woman has her name entered there, and on one side of the account are entered the articles which she gets?-Yes.
6681. I see that some women make home-spun tweed?-Yes
6682. Do you purchase a quantity of that also?-Yes.
6683. Is it also paid for in goods?-No; it is paid for in cash if required.
6684. But at a cash price?-Yes.
6685. In this case [showing] it was entered in the book?-Yes.
6686. Was that because the party wanted goods, or was there any particular reason for it?-She was not sure when she gave the tweed, whether she might require the whole of it in goods. She wanted meal, I think, and some other goods.
6687. Are your dealings in cloth with the people the country very extensive?-I buy a good deal of it occasionally, when the trade is brisk.
6688. Is it paid for regularly in cash?-Yes.
6689. Do your purchases of it not appear in this book?-There may be some of them there.
6690. But are the majority of your purchases of that sort of cloth entered here?-Possibly they may appear in the men's ledger more frequently, unless when the cloth is bought over the counter.
6691. If it is paid for in cash, why does it appear in any ledger?- What is paid for cash does not appear in any ledger.
6692. Does it not appear in your day-book?-No, it does not enter our day-book. We just buy it the same as we buy any hosiery. For instance, if a girl brings it in, she may require the value of it in goods; that is a separate transaction, finished at once, and there is no more trace of it.
6693. Is the cloth almost all of the same quality?-It is all very much the same.
6694. Do you ticket each web at the time when you take it in?- Yes.
6695. Then I understand you to say, that the great bulk of your dealings in cloth are cash transactions?-Yes, I think the bulk of them, or they are settled for at the time in goods.
6696. Is tea a very usual article for the knitters to take out their payments in?-I think it is. They often take tea.
6697. Have you known any cases in which the goods or tea so obtained for hosiery were sold or disposed of for cash?-I think I have not.
6698. It is probably not so necessary for them to do so when they can get provisions for their hosiery, as when they are only paid in soft goods?-Perhaps not; but it is not very likely I would learn that that was done, even if it was the case.
6699. When a woman has sold you some hosiery goods or cloth, and does not want goods in exchange to the full value at the time, is it the practice in your shop to issue any line or acknowledgment for the balance?-I believe that is done occasionally.
6700. Is the line in the form of an order to credit the bearer with so much in goods?-Yes.
6701. Are these lines or vouchers generally brought back by the party to whom they were given?-I think so.
6702. Are they ever brought back by another?-I think not; because we know all the people, and they could not impose on us in that way.
6703. But if the party to whom the line was issued had handed it over for a consideration to another party, that would be no imposition upon you?-No; but still we would know whether it was done or not, that is to say, we would suspect something amiss. If it was presented by another person than one of the woman's own family, we would naturally suppose there was something suspicious about it.
6704. Do these lines bear to be payable to any particular person?- Yes; we always mention in them the name of the person who has sold us the goods. However, it is perhaps right to state that that is not very much practised in our shop.
6705. I think you said there were not many little shops in this district?-There are a few. Arthur Harrison has a shop within two miles of me; Laurence Smith has a shop within three miles; and Jack Anderson has a shop within five miles to the westward.
6706. Are all these on the Busta estate?-Yes. Jack Anderson rents a booth belonging to Ollaberry.
6707. Is there any difficulty or any obstruction placed in the way of small shopkeepers getting premises and carrying on their business in this district?-There seems not to have been any lately. When I took a lease of Hillswick, I thought I had an understanding that Mr. Cheyne was not to put up other places of business in the district, but there was no sort of agreement about it and that understanding has not been acted upon.
6708. Do you refer to shops or fish-curing establishments?-Not fish-curing establishments; there is no restriction upon them.
6709. Any person may set up a business of that sort?-I think so.
6710. You have been present and heard the whole of the evidence that has been given to-day: is there any part of it with regard to which you wish to make any statement or contradiction?-There is nothing that I am aware of.
6711. Are you an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-I am.
6712. Do most of your fishermen subscribe to that society?-A good many of them do.
6713. Is their annual subscription debited to them in their account?-Yes, very frequently.
6714. When they have anything to get from the society, how is that payment settled with them?-That I daresay depends very much upon their own wishes.
6715. Does it depend to any extent on the fact, whether or not they are indebted to you at the time?-I don't think it does generally.
6716. But it may sometimes?-It may sometimes.
6717. That is to say, supposing a man who loses his boat has a sum to receive in cash from the society, which passes through your hands, it may be written down to square off your account?-No. It may be entered to his credit in the account; but I think, if the matter was searched into, it would be found that in that case it was to square off for some boat he had got before, and which he had not paid for.
6718. And not his ordinary shop account?-No.
6719. Therefore, you say that you would retain the money if he was in debt to you for a boat?-Yes.
6720. But you would not retain it if he was only in debt to you for shop goods?-I think not.
6721. What is your reason for making that distinction?-I think it is nothing but simple justice to myself. It would certainly be very unreasonable for a man to get remuneration for a boat from the Shipwrecked Fishermen's Society while the same boat was standing unpaid for in my books.
6722. Would the same principle not apply to the case of an account which a man owed to you?-No doubt the man would be entitled to pay me that account; but I would certainly consider it a great hardship if I had to pay that money over to a man who had an account standing due in my books for the very boat for the loss of which the money was given.
6723. Have you ever had any dispute with the fishermen about the payment of that money, or any complaints that it was not settled for in cash?-I don't think I have, within my recollection. I think there was one man who said something about it at one time; but after I had showed to him what I considered to be the justice of the matter, I fancied he was satisfied, and never heard any more about it.
6724. What is the other book you have brought with you?-It is a boat-book, merely for entries relating to the boats.
6725. How are the boat-builders paid? Do they run accounts with you in the same way as the fishermen?-I think so.
6726. Are they paid by weekly wages?-No; they are paid so much for building a boat.
6727. What does their contract generally amount to?-We furnish the wood, and merely pay them for [Page 163] their work. I think we generally pay £3 for the work on a six-oared boat.
6728. When you enter into a contract for the building of a boat, does the man open an account, or is it generally the case that he has an account already running?-The builder I employ generally has an account running.
6729. Are his family and himself supplied with goods from your shop from time to time?-Only occasionally. I think the boats are paid for mostly in cash. Probably he would get a few pounds from me if he was requiring them, and then he would come and build boats for me afterwards.
6730. Are the boat-builders a class of men by themselves, who work at nothing else?-Yes.
6731. Do they travel about the country?-Yes.
6732. Are they not employed by you all the year round?-No.
6733. Then, they generally get an advance of money from you before they begin work for you?-I don't say generally, but I say the particular builder I employ has done that sometimes.
6734. So that, when his boat is finished, he has generally nothing to get?-No; he has something to get still, because he is building more than one at a time.
6735. But during the time he is building them, he has an account at your shop for necessaries to his family?-Yes.
6736. What is the other book you have there?-It is a ledger for the purpose of entering anything into-goods supplied to a family.
6737. Are these the families of your fishermen?-Yes; or it may be others that we intend to have short accounts.
6738. But these accounts are only for goods supplied: there is nothing entered that is due to them?-No.
6739. The other side of the account is not in this book at all?-No.
6740. And the fishermen's ledger is quite different?-Yes.
6741. It is a large book?-Yes.
6742. Is there a separate ledger for beach boys and men employed in fish-curing?-Yes.
6743. Is there also a separate ledger for the kelp women?-No; their accounts are entered in the women's book unless they are paid right off.
6744. Show me the account of one of these kelp women in the women's book: take Mrs. Hughson?-I don't think she ever had anything to get, and therefore we would not enter her name in the book.
6745. Take Maria Sandison, who was spoken of today?-I think her account was kept on a slip of paper or in a small book, until they got it squared off, and then it was entered.
6746. I see there is nothing about kelp in her account?-No, I fancy it was just paid off at the time.
6747. Is there anything else you wish to say?-It has been asserted that the fish-curers paid no cash, and that scarcely a coin passed between the curer and the fisherman. That was said before the Truck Commissioners in Edinburgh. Now, I would wish to show what amount of cash I have paid since I began to settle this year. I think the cash I paid during the settling time in November and December last amounted to £1006.
6748. What was it in previous years?-I cannot tell for every year; but I know that for the whole year, in 1866, I paid £1811 in cash, and in 1870 I paid £2040. I think the highest I paid to one man this season was £24, 7s. 9d. in cash at settlement.
6749. Was that much higher than the average?-It must have been higher. Perhaps I may be allowed to say also, that I think the great bar to improvement in Shetland is the want of leases. In my opinion, a Land Bill for Shetland-an Act somewhat resembling the Irish Land Bill-would be very useful, by which all improvements could be held to belong to the tenant instead of to the proprietor; because as soon as a tenant here begins to improve his farm, he is very likely to have his rent raised upon him.
6750. Have you known cases in which the rent has been raised upon an improving tenant?-Yes. I am not prepared just now to give names, but I think I have met with several cases of that kind.
6751. What is the bar to the introduction of a system of leases in Shetland, which, you say, would greatly improve the country?- There seems to be an unwillingness on the part of the proprietors to give lease. I have known several parties who have asked for leases and have not got them.
6752. Has the unwillingness of the proprietors to give leases anything to do with the fishing?-I don't think it.
6753. On some properties are not yearly tenants under an obligation to fish, which might be interfered with, or which might not be so easily enforceable, there were leases?-That shows the necessity granting leases.
6754. But is not the objection of proprietors to grant leases due to some extent to the fact, that it would be less easy to enforce the obligation to fish if leases existed?-Perhaps it is, but even on those estates where there is no such obligation leases are not granted.
6755. Is there a general desire on the part of fishermen-farmers in Shetland to have leases?-I cannot say that exactly. I think there is such desire in many cases, but then they fear that their rent would be raised if a lease were granted.
6756. Have there been any cases of leases being granted or offered in which ground has been given for that apprehension?-I think so, although I could not name them just now.
6757. Have there been any attempts made recently in Shetland to introduce leases on a larger scale than they at present exist?- Not within my knowledge. With regard to the Ollaberry property, I find there are only 33 out of 71 tenants who fish either to Anderson & Co. or to me.
6758. Are you aware whether the other 38 tenants fish at all?- There are some of them who do not fish, but there are others of them who do, and who are ling fishers. The man Blance who was examined goes to Faroe and I think another man too.
6759. Do many of them go to Faroe?-No; not many.
6760. They are not obliged to engage with any particular person at the Faroe fishing?-No.
6761. In the evidence to which you have referred as having been given in Edinburgh, there is a statement that leases were offered on a large estate in Delting or in Yell, but that the bulk of the tenants would not accept of them: do you know the reason of that?-Because, I suspect, they were suspicious of the factor.
6762. The statement was, 'Ten years was mentioned as the minimum length of the lease, because the people were frightened to take leases; but when any one came and asked for a longer lease, I gave it to him. No one would take a longer lease than fourteen years, and I have given none longer than fourteen.' Can you suggest any other reason than that you have named for the tenants declining leases on these estates?-I think it must have been because under the leases, all improvements were to be held to belong to the landlord.
6763. But they belong to the landlord at present?-True; but what I mean is, that that is the great bar to improvements in Shetland.
6764. Do you think it is possible for a man to improve his land much who is employed for four or five months in the year fishing?-I think it is. His time in winter is almost thrown away at present; but if he had the security of getting the value of his labour at the end of his lease or on removing, I think he would work actively and improve his land. There are many, I know, who have regretted that they could not spend their time in that way.
6765. Is it not possible for a tenant who wants to improve his land to make some contract with his landlord on the subject?-I have never been aware of any case where that has been done.
6766. Have you the management of the Ollaberry estate in your own hands?-Yes.
6767. Have you made any effort to induce the people [Page 164] there to take leases, or offered them compensation for improvements?-I have not offered them compensation. I could not do that; but I have told them that the understanding on which they held their lands was this-that if they made improvements, either in cultivating the land, keeping up their fences, or repairing their houses, their rents would not be raised during my lease.
6768. You have only a lease of Ollaberry?-Yes, for nineteen years.
6769. Has your intimation to the tenants, that their rents would not be raised if they improved their holdings, had a beneficial effect?-I think it has in some cases; that is to say, they have kept up their fences very well, and I know some parties who have added to their cultivated ground.
6770. Do you think that has been done to a greater extent than would have been the case if you had held out no such inducement to them?-I would fancy so.
6771. Is there any other suggestion or statement you wish to make?-I think not.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, PETER PETERSON, examined.
6772. Are you a fisherman at Hillswick?-Not present. I am at Hillyar now. I live at Hillswick, but I am not fishing there.
6773. Have you got any land?-Yes; a small piece in Hillswick from Mr. Gifford.
6774. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Laurence Smith at Hillyar at present.
6775. Is he a large curer?-No; he has only two boats fishing for him. I have been fishing for him two years now.
6776. For whom did you fish before?-For Mr. Anderson.
6777. Why did you leave off fishing for him?-I got into debt, and was refused supplies from him; and, as I could not do without supplies for my family, I went to another man.
6778. Why would you not pay your debt to Mr. Anderson?-I did not make a sufficient fishing to pay it, and I had no great means to work on either: I had no boat.
6779. What was the amount of your debt?-£17, 9s. 5d.
6780. And when it came to that amount, he refused you supplies?-Yes.
6781. At what time of the year was that?-In the summer time, during the fishing season.
6782. Did you settle with him at the end of that season?-Yes.
6783. Did you clear off what was due by you at that settlement, or was there still something due to Mr. Anderson?-£17, 9s. 5d. was the debt I left when I went away from him. I continued to fish the season out, and left him when the season was done.
6784. But you made a settlement at the end of the season?-Yes.
6785. What was the result of that settlement?-He made out that I was due him £17, 9s. 5d, and he summoned me for it.
6786. Did you ask him how much was due at the time when he stopped the supplies?-No.
6787. Then, the sum you have mentioned was due after he had allowed you credit for all the fish of that season?-Yes.
6788. So that, at the time when he stopped the supplies, there would be a larger sum than that due by you?-There may have been.
6789. Were you asked to engage to fish to him after that?-No.
6790. What was his reason for summoning you?-I don't know. I was not asked to fish to him again, so that I had to look out for myself some other way, and I went to Smith and got supplies from him.
6791. Was there a decree against you in the action in which Mr Anderson summoned you?-No, I have not got any yet.
6792. Was the case not decided against you?-I don't think it. At least I left it unsettled in the hands of Mr. Spence, the lawyer, when I left the town.
6793. Is the case not at an end yet?-I don't know. Mr. Spence was to give me notice but I have got none yet.
6794. What was the nature of your defence in that case?-I was not able to pay, and therefore I was forced to appear in Lerwick before the court. Very likely, if I had been in a good boat the last season I fished for him, I would have done somewhat better.
6795. But was the debt really due for which you were summoned?-I did not have any pass-book, and got no copy of my account, so that I could not say whether it was due or not.
6796. Did you ever ask for a pass-book?-I have asked for copies of my account.
6797. Did you get them?-At one time I got a copy of my account for nine years.
6798. Had your debt been running on increasing for nine years?- It was always increasing.
6799. Have you got these accounts here, or are they in your lawyer's hands?-They are in Mr. Spence's hands in Lerwick.
6800. How often did you ask for them before you got the accounts for the nine years?-I asked for them when I was summoned.
6801. Had you ever asked for them before?-Yes; I had asked for them sometimes, but not every year.
6802. Did you always get them when you asked for them?-No; I got none until I got the whole at one time.
6803. Why did you not get them when you asked for them?-I don't know; I never was refused them, but I did not get them.
6804. Were you just put off?-Yes.
6805. Did you fish for Mr. Anderson all the time these accounts were running up?-Yes. The commencement of the debt was when I lost a fleet of lines by bad weather. There might have been a little due before that, but it was very little.
6806. How much do you call a fleet of lines?-Just what the boat carries. A boat takes 108 lines, and we lost them all except eighteen. The weather prevented us from taking any more in.
6807. Were these lines hired from Mr. Anderson?-Yes.
6808. Are the fishermen always liable for hired lines which they lose?-Yes. If they lose lines which they have hired, they have to pay for them.
6809. What is the value of these lines?-The price is about 2s. 8d. per line for new lines when they are ready for sea.
6810. Then a fleet of 108 lines would cost about £8 or £10?-I never give any consideration to what the cost of them might be. There were some of them old and some of them new; but I think 2s. 8d. was about the price for new lines about that time. The price varies at different times.
6811. Is not each man of the boat's crew liable for his share of the lines?-Yes. If there are five men in a boat, then the lines belong to these men, and they have each to pay their share of the hire for the season.
6812. In that way, you would be liable only for one-fifth of the value of the lines?-Yes; only for one-fifth that year.
6813. And that was the beginning of your debt?-Yes; but it was always going on, as I had a small family, and they were needing bread. Then interest was charged, and such as that.
6814. Was there any interest charged upon that account?-Yes.
6815. Are you sure of that?-Yes. It is marked down in the copies that I got.
6816. Did you ever know any man who got the whole of his accounts for nine years at once except yourself?-No.
6817. Did you ever know a man who asked for them?-No.
[Page 165]
6818. Did you ever know a man who was nine years in debt to a fish-merchant, with the debt always increasing, except yourself?- I could not positively say. I could not pick out any particular man; but very likely there are some who have been in the same position.
6819. During the time your debt was increasing, did you continue to fish every year for Mr. Anderson?-I was fishing for him the whole time.
6820. Did you, during that time, sell any of your fish to other merchants?-I did. The last year I was fishing for him I sold some fish to others, in order to keep my family alive.
6821. Who did you sell them to that year?-To Mr. Adie's factor.
6822. Was that what you call smuggling fish?-Yes. It was necessity that made me do it, in order to save my family.
6823. Was any objection made to your selling them?-No. I told that in court the same as I am telling it to you, and there was nothing said to me for doing it. I was obliged to do it.
6824. Was it not quite a fair thing for Mr. Anderson to do to summon you for the debt you were due him?-He did summon me for it; and when I asked him how it was to be paid, he wanted me either to pay it down at once or get cautioners for it, but I could not do either of these things. I perhaps I might have got a cautioner, but the money I did not have.
6825. Is it usual for a fisherman to get a cautioner when he is a little in debt?-I don't know; some of them have got one.
6826. But if the man continues to fish for the merchant to whom the debt is due, is he required to get a cautioner?-No. It is only when he goes away from the merchant that he is asked for a cautioner.
6827. Were you bound in any way to fish for Mr. Anderson, or for any one else, during these nine years?-I suppose I was, from the way I was in debt to him; but, instead of getting out of debt, the debt always increased.
6828. Whose fault was that?-I don't know. It was not my fault. As I have said, the last season I fished for Mr. Anderson I did not have a boat fit to go to sea with; but very likely, if I had had a good boat that season, as it was a good year's fishing, I might have got the debt somewhat reduced. Therefore it was not my fault. I got a boat from him, but ought to have got one that was fit to go to sea.
6829. Had you not your choice of boat?-I had no choice of a boat for that season.
6830. Where do you get the supplies for your family now?-From Laurence Smith, the man I fish to.
6831. Do you settle with him every year?-Yes; I have settled with him two years now.
6832. Had you something to get in cash last year?-Yes. The first year I fished for Laurence Smith I had 28s. to get, after paying for the things I had got from him during the season. This year, when I settled with him, I was clear. I had nothing to get, or very little.
6833. Were these two good fishing years?-They were very good; but the fishing is not the same with all the boats. They are not always equal in the same year.
6834. What was the price of meal at these two stores you have been dealing with?-It is just up and down, according to the market-less in one year than another. I think that last year it was about 21s. per boll in Mr. Smith's store.
6835. Are you told the price at the time you buy the meal?-Yes.
6836. Is the quality of the meal you get there as good as at Mr. Anderson's?-Yes, it is equally good. Meal and flour are just the same at the one place as at the other.
6837. Could you get better meal or flour anywhere else?-I don't know. We would, no doubt, get a different quality in Lerwick, if we were dealing there.
6838. Have you tried it there?-No.
6839. Are you obliged to take your provisions from the shop of the merchant you fish for?-I don't know about that. I have asked Mr. Smith at different times for a few shillings until the end of the twelvemonth.
6840. Have you got it?-Yes; I got it, but I never asked for any money to buy meal with, because he brought up stores there to supply his customers.
6842. But is it understood among the fishermen here that they ought to take their stores, or part of them, both provisions and clothing, from the merchant to whom they sell their fish?-That is generally the way in which they take there.
6842. Are they generally obliged to do that?-No; I don't think they are obliged to do it.
6843. Can they get cash from the merchants with which to buy their goods in other places?-I don't know. If the merchant has meal and other things which they are requiring, and can sell them as cheap and as good as they can get them at any other place then, of course, they don't need to ask money from him.
6844. But they generally do get their provisions from the merchant's shop, and nowhere else?-Yes.
6845. Did you ever ask for cash with which to go and buy your provisions from another store?-No; but I got an allowance from Mr. Smith with which to go to Mr. Anderson's factor if he (Mr. Smith) did not have the things I wanted.
6846. When was that?-I got it in both years when was fishing for Mr. Smith.
6847. Was that a general allowance or was it given to you on some particular occasion, when you wanted something?-If there was anything I required for the fishing, which Mr. Smith did not have, then I got leave from him to sell fish to another merchant, so that I might buy it, or I got cash from him with which to buy it from another.
6848. That, I suppose, was when you wanted any kind of clothing which he did not keep?-Yes; or a bit of meat, or butter or meal, if he did not have it. Then he gave us money to buy it with from Mr. Anderson's, or allowed us to go and sell fish to Mr. Anderson and to purchase it.
6849. Did you often do that?-Not often.
6850. Your daughter was examined to-day?-Yes.
6851. She works at the kelp?-Yes, a little. She is young yet, and has not done much to it.
6852. She also knits a little?-Yes. The most she has knitted has been for people belonging to the family, stockings and other things that we were requiring for ourselves.
6853. She also sells your eggs?-Yes.
6854. When she sells these things, are they paid for in money or in goods?-We are generally requiring some stores for the house: soap or soda, or a little tea or sugar; and they are got in that way.
6855. Does she always sell her hosiery for goods?-Yes; I suppose she never asked anything else for it.
6856. Do you sell the eggs yourself, or are they usually sold by your daughter?-They are generally sold by her.
6857. Has she a book of her own in which they are entered?-She has no book. They are generally paid for at once.
6858. How are you paid for your winter fishing?-We were generally paid for every haul as we brought it ashore, but we cannot do that now. We have to salt our fish ourselves in the winter fishing; and when we have got as many as two or three cwt. we send them over to Mr. Laurenson, and sell them to him.
6859. Then you are paid for them on account now?-Yes; we cannot settle for them now every time we come ashore. We salt so much, and sell it off, and then we begin to salt again; but before, when we sold our fish green, we settled for every haul of fish as they came ashore.
6860. Did you do that with Mr. Anderson too?-Yes, as long as I fished to him.
6861. Did you get cash for that?-No; I cannot say that I ever got cash.
6862. Did you ask for it?-Yes; we asked for cash [Page 166] several times, but we only got a small line, saying we had delivered so many fish.
6863. Have you got any of these lines this year?-No.
6864. What did you do with these lines?-When we came back with the line, we got anything we required for it.
6865. Did the line name any particular sum of money?-Yes. The haul was divided between four men, and every man got his haul marked down on a separate line, with his name on it.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, ANDREW ANDERSON, examined.
6866. Are you a fisherman at Hillyar?-I am.
6867. Do you live there?-Yes.
6868. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Laurence Smith for the last two years.
6869. Who did you fish for before?-I fished for different men, for Mr. Inkster, Mr. Anderson, Mr. Williamson, and now for Mr. Smith.
6870. Who did you fish for last before Mr. Smith?-For Gideon Williamson, or James Williamson, his uncle.
6871. Is your fishing paid for every year in the winter?-Yes.
6872. Do you generally get a payment in cash at settlement?-I have been a poor man, and very unfortunate, and I never had much cash to get; but sometimes I did get some, and sometimes not.
6873. What was the reason why you did not get it?-A poor man sometimes did not have it to get.
6874. Were you generally in debt to the merchants?-Sometimes I was a good deal in their debt and sometimes not, just as the season turned out. In some years I cleared off all my debt, and in other years I was a good bit behind.
6875. How long have you been in debt?-I have been in debt now for a good while, I cannot tell for how many years; and when I could not pay my debt, then I could not get my supplies, and that was what made me shift from man to man.
6876. Have you shifted often for that reason?-I have shifted twice because I was in debt.
6877. When did you shift first because you were in debt?-I cannot tell how long it is ago.
6878. Who did you shift from then?-From Mr. Anderson to Mr. Williamson.
6879. You were in debt to Mr. Anderson at that time?-Yes.
6880. And you could get no more supplies?-I could not get the supply that I asked for, and for that cause I left.
6881. When your supplies were stopped, did you go on fishing for Mr. Anderson until the end of the season?-I had not commenced then, and my family required meat, and I had no money to buy it with.
6882. Why were your supplies stopped? Was it because you were in debt?-Mr. Anderson never said anything about that; but when I asked for bread, he said they would not give it until fishing time.
6883. How much were you in debt at that time?-I don't recollect.
6884. Had your debt been running on for a number of years?- Not for a great many years; but I was a good bit in debt to him, although I don't recollect how much, as I had no pass-book, and no copy of my account.
6885. Was it ten years ago since that happened?-I cannot say rightly, because I was away from him for a while, and then I had to go back again, and afterwards I left him again.
6886. How much were you due him? Was it as much as £10?-I don't think it was so much as that, but I don't remember.
6887. Was it not quite reasonable that he should ask you for payment of your debt?-Certainly; but I had no money, and I could not give it. He had a right to ask for his debt, as everybody has; and I had a right to pay it, if I had been able.
6888. Did you leave Williamson because you were in his debt too?-No; the old man died, and then this man broke. I was serving him after that, but he was not able to give me my supplies, either clothes or meal, and therefore I left him.
6889. Were you in his debt?-I was due him a little.
6890. But you did not leave him because you were in his debt?- No; it was only because he could not give me supplies.
6891. And you get your supplies now from Mr. Smith?-Yes; I have got them from him for the last two years, when I have been fishing for him.
6892. Do you generally get a balance in cash at the end of the year?-No; I have not settled with him this year, and I don't know yet what I am to get.
6893. Had you a balance to get last year?-No; I was nearly clear with him.
6894. But there was a balance against you?-Yes; but it was not much-a mere trifle.
6895. Do you get cash from him during the season if you want it?-No; I will get anything he has in his shop to supply me with, either meat or anything else; but cash is seldom to be got.
6896. Why is that?-I don't know. I suppose it is because the man has not got much himself. Cash is not often very plentiful with him.
6897. Have you often asked for cash?-Not often. I may have asked for a shilling or two at a time. I could get anything else he had in his shop, but money was a thing that was seldom or never got.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, LAURENCE PETERSON, examined.
6898. You are a fisherman, and the son of a previous witness?-I am.
6899. Whom do you fish for?-I fished first for Mr. Anderson for two years.
6900. Whom do you fish for now?-For Mr. Joseph Leask, Lerwick, at the Faroe fishing.
6901. When did you give over going to the home-fishing?-In 1868.
6902. You fished for Mr. Anderson then?-Yes.
6903. Had you an account in his shop?-Yes.
6904. When you settled up at the end of the year, had you a balance to receive in cash?-Yes; in both years when I fished for him.
6905. Did you get money in the course of the season if you wanted it?-No.
6906. Did you ask for it?-Yes.
6907. Was it refused to you?-Yes.
6908. Why?-I don't know.
6909. But you got as much goods as you wanted?-Yes.
6910. What was the balance you received in cash at the end of these years?-I don't remember how much it was the first year; but in the second year I had 10s. to get.
6911. In the Faroe fishing you are paid at the end of the year too?-Yes.
6912. Are you paid in cash?-Yes; if we want it, we are paid in cash.
6913. Have you an account in Mr. Leask's shop?-Yes. I have an account the whole time, from the time I go out until I come back and go again.
6914. Is that account closed when you come back from the fishing?-Yes; I have no account after that.
6915. Is that because you live at a distance from Lerwick during the winter?-I suppose that is the reason.
6916. What is your account for?-For tea, coffee, butter, pork, and such things as that.
6917. Have you got a pass-book?-No, I asked for [Page 167] one in 1870, but they refused to mark anything into a pass-book, and I never asked for it again.
6918. Who refused it?-The people in the shop; and they did not give a pass-book to any one more than to me.
6919. Was it refused to you in Mr. Leask's shop in Lerwick?- Yes.
6920. Did they give you any reason for refusing?-They thought it too much bother, I suppose. I knew of no other reason.
6921. Were the things you got for your own use at the fishing?- Yes.
6922. Did you take them all to the fishing with you?-Yes; we buy cloth and all other things for ourselves. We are only supplied with bread.