11,632. And also when you sell an article of your own?-Yes.
11,633. Have you ever got any money from them?-No.
11,634. Have you ever asked for it?-Yes. It is some time ago, but I asked once or twice, and was refused. After that I was accustomed to get nothing but tea or soft goods, or anything else they had in the shop, and I did not ask for money again.
11,635. Did they ever ask you to take a less price when you asked for money?-No.
11,636. Did they never offer to give you money if you would take less for your goods?-No
11,637. Have you ever had to exchange your goods for provisions?-Often. I have done that with several people. Sometimes, when I sold my veils, I would have to take a line from Mr. Sinclair; and if I knew any person who was requiring such goods as Mr. Sinclair kept, I would sell the line to them, and they would go to Lerwick with it and get what they wanted.
11,638. Who have you bartered your lines with in that way?-I am not inclined to tell their names, because it was done to me as a favour, and they did not wish it to be made known. I may say, however, that I have given the soft goods to Mrs. Tait in Charles Nicholson's shop.
11,639. Was Mrs. Tait always ready to take your goods?-She was not very ready, but when she saw it was necessary, she would do it out of kindness.
11,640. When you dispose of your goods in that way, do you generally get the full value for them?-Not always.
11,641. You have to take a little off them in order to get what you want?-Yes.
11,642. Do you do that several times in the year?-I do it very often.
11,643. Do you know that other knitters have to do the same thing?-Very likely they do. I believe there are others who have to do it besides me.
11,644. Have you often given away your lines in the way you have mentioned?-Yes, very often.
11,645. Do you make a practice of it?-Yes, I have had to do it.
11,646. Do you get a great number of lines in the course of the year?-Sometimes; not a great many. I just get them as I require them.
11,647. What do you get for the lines when you part with them in the way you have mentioned?-I have got money, and sometimes provisions.
11,648. Have you got money for a line lately?-Yes, in harvest. It was a line for 7s.
11,649. Did you get 7s. in money for it?-Yes; but when the people came to take the goods, if they did not get them to their own mind, I had to make up whatever loss they had upon them.
11,650. Was that the bargain, that if they did not get their satisfaction in goods, you were to give them back some of the money?-No, not the money. I was just to give them something in addition. Of course, they could not expect the money back from me.
11,651. Did you give them anything back?-They have not sought for it yet, and I cannot say whether they will ask for anything or not.
11,652. Have you always got the full amount of the line in money, when you gave it in that way?-No; not altogether.
11,653. Have you sometimes given it for less than the sum named in it?-Yes.
11,654. For 6d. or 1s. less?-That just depended on the amount of the line. I could not say particularly.
11,655. Did you get the full value for all the lines [Page 286] which you parted with last harvest?-Yes, I got the full value for them, but it was as a favour to me that I got it.
11,656. Can you mention any case in which you got less for a line than the sum that was named in it?-I could not remember any particular case where that happened with a line; but I have often suffered a good deal of loss by the soft goods. On one occasion I lost 1s. 6d. upon 6s. 6d.
11,657. Did you get 6s. 6d. worth of soft goods, and give them away for 5s.?-Yes.
11,658. Did you get 5s. in money?-No; not altogether in money, but partly in meal. They said the cost price of the articles would be 5s, and they gave me that value for them.
11,659. Have you ever given anything back, when the people that you gave the lines to were not able to satisfy themselves at the shop?-Yes, once. I gave them the worth of 1s. in other goods that I had got from the shop.
11,660. What was the value of that line?-I cannot say. The lines I have got have run between 3s. and 10s.; but I could not say the exact amount of that particular line.
11,661. Do you know any people who make a trade of buying goods from the knitters, and selling them through the country?-I could not say that any person makes a trade of it. I don't think any person would like to do that.
11,662. Are there not some women who hawk goods through the country, which they have got in that way?-I know there are and I have done that myself more than once.
11,663. What have you done more than once?-Taken the soft goods which I got at Lerwick, and gone through the country and sold them. The last time I did that was three years past in spring, and I had done it before.
11,664. Was it in a bad year when you did that?-Yes.
11,665. And you wanted potatoes?-Yes.
11,666. Had you to travel far in order to get them?-Between two and three miles.
11,667. Had you tried often before you got your goods sold?-Not often. Of course, I had spoken to the people before I took the goods to them. I did not go out on the chance of selling them.
11,668. Were the goods taken as a favour to you, and not in the ordinary way of business?-Yes, it was done quite as a favour.
11,669. But do you know any person who travels through the country regularly, and hawks goods which have been bought from the knitters?-I don't know any person particularly who has done that.
11,670. Have you ever heard that such things were done?-I cannot say that I have.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Mrs. ANN LEASK or INKSTER, examined.
11,671. You live in Scalloway?-I do.
11,672. Have you sometimes knitted hosiery goods for sale?-Yes; I have knitted some for Mr. Sinclair.
11,673. Have you been paid for them in money or in goods?- When I knitted goods for sale I was paid for them in money. I knitted some for Dr. Hamilton, Bressay, and I was paid money for them. He had got an order for them from the south.
11,674. But when you sold them to merchants, you were paid in goods?-Yes; I never asked them for any money, because I did not require it. I always took what I required in cottons, cloth, and so on. Besides, I knew it was not the practice to give money.
11,675. Did you sell your own knitting?-No. I knitted for Mr. Sinclair, except what I got orders to knit from the south.
11,676. Have you an aunt who knits also?-Yes.
11,677. Does she sometimes sell shawls made with her own worsted?-She did formerly, but she does not do so now.
11,678. Do you think the merchants make any profit by the shawls they buy?-I cannot say; perhaps they do.
11,679. They say they sell them to the merchants in the south at exactly the same rate as they buy them here. Do you know of any case where a merchant has sold a shawl at a great profit?-No.
11,680. Do you know of a merchant buying a shawl from you for 15s. or 16s., and then selling it within a few minutes after that for double the money?-No. I do not remember any case of that kind.
11,681. Did you ever hear of such a case?-Not so far as I recollect.
11,682. Did you or your aunt ever sell a shawl at 15s., or about that price, which was sold immediately afterwards, in the same shop, to a gentleman for about twice the money?-I never saw that done. My aunt may have done so for anything I know, for I was not always with her. I was in service for some time, and I cannot answer for what she may have done at that time. My aunt's name is Ann Williamson; she lives in Scalloway.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Mrs. ELIZABETH IRVINE or SMITH, examined.
11,683. You live in Scalloway?-Yes.
11,684. Have you been in the habit of knitting?-Yes, a little. I have knitted for several people, but chiefly for Mr. Sinclair. I have knitted for him for eleven years, and I keep an account with him.
11,685. Do you get what goods you want out of his shop?-Yes. I asked for work from him when I was in great need, and I got supplies and worsted, and whatever I asked from him.
11,686. Has that system of dealing been going on for eleven years?-Yes.
11,687. Have you always got your supplies from his shop?-I always got what I asked.
11,688. Have you got money from him when you wanted it?-Yes. The first I got was 2s., and the last I got was 10s.
11,689. What was that for?-I just got it on the work I was doing.
11,690. When did you get the 10s.?-It was before you came to Shetland; I cannot tell how many weeks it was ago. I sent off a score of veils to my sister-in-law in Lerwick, and told her to ask a few shillings for me. She did so, and Mr. Sinclair gave her 10s.
11,691. Had she to ask more than once for the money?-No; she just took in the veils, and he gave her the money, so far as I am aware.
11,692. Did you tell her to say what you wanted the money for?-I did not.
11,693. Had you ever got as much money as that before?-No; but whatever money I asked I got, from 6d. upwards.
11,694. Have you ever asked for a sixpence or a shilling?-I have asked for it many a time and got it and I generally got a little more than I asked.
11,695. Was 2s. the next largest sum you got before the 10s.?- No, I had got 3s., and 4s. 6d., and so on.
11,696. Did you want that money to pay your rent with?-I have a pension of 11s. a quarter from the Merchant Seamen's Fund, and that pays my rent The pension is paid to me in Lerwick by Mr. Stewart.
11,697. Do you always get payment of that yourself when you go to Lerwick?-Yes, except sometimes when I cannot go, and then I send a paper to my brother in Lerwick, and he gets the money for me. My brother is in Mr. Harrison's store.
11,698. Did you ever have occasion to barter any of the goods you got for provisions?-I never did that except once when a woman took a quarter of a pound of tea from me and gave me milk for it, as I had not [Page 287] the money at the time. She was well satisfied with Mr. Sinclair's tea., and told me to get it from him. It was the same to her as money.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, JOHN THOMSON, examined.
11,699. You are a shopkeeper and grocer at Sandsound in the parish of Sandsting?-Yes, in a small way.
11,700. How far is that from here?-About 10 miles when we go by land, but it is a little shorter when we go by boat.
11,701. On whose property is your shop?-On the property of Mr. Greig of Reawick, and Mr. Umphray is trustee for it.
11,702. How far are you from Reawick?-About 3 miles.
11,703. Do you do anything in the fishing?-A little. I buy fish in winter and spring, but not in summer. I don't have the chance of buying any in summer. The place is a little inland, and there is not much fishing carried on there, except in bad weather in winter and spring when the men go to fish in the bays.
11,704. Do you cure the fish yourself?-Yes.
11,705. How much may you buy in the course of a winter and spring?-In some years I have bought as much as nearly 7 tons of dry fish, cod and ling, and in other years as low as 2 tons.
11,706. Do you settle with the men for these fish when they are delivered to you?-Yes.
11,707. Do they take the price in money or in goods?-I give them money unless they want goods, but if they want goods they get them.
11,708. Do you ask them if they want anything?-Sometimes, and at other times if they don't ask for goods I give them the price.
11,709. You deal both in groceries and soft goods?-Yes, but very little in soft goods, except at times.
11,710. Do some of the men run accounts with you?-Some of them do until about 1st April when they are going to Faroe or to the south; but with others settle just at the time when they get the goods or when they give me their fish. That is done either way as the men prefer it themselves.
11,711. Do you run accounts with the fishermen for supplies at other seasons of the year?-Sometimes, when they are a little hard up in the summer time, I give them a little supply either of meal or tea, or anything else, to oblige them; but I don't like to do that to a great extent. I cannot do it very well.
11,712. Do the fishermen generally go for their supplies in summer to the larger merchants?-Yes; those who go to the Faroe fishing generally do so.
11,713. Why is that?-Because when they are out at the fishing for the larger merchants, it is better for them to take their supplies at their shops.
11,714. But why could they not deal with you as well?-The larger merchants are more able to give them credit as they are fishing for them. In summer and harvest I generally sell, for cash when I can get it, and I am not very able to give long credits.
11,715. Do you do much business for cash in summer and harvest?-Not much; about £2 or £3 a week is generally the most.
11,716. And I suppose the men and their families generally have to go to the large merchants where they can get credit at that season?-At that season of the year they do.
11,717. Do you think you would have a better business if the men were paid for their fish as they were delivered?-I suppose I might.
11,718. They would not require to get credit then?-No; but the men who go to Faroe in the smacks have to make long voyages, and they could not be paid in that way.
11,719. But there are a number of men at the haaf in your district, are there not?-No, not in my district. There is scarcely a boat in my parish. The boats which go to that fishing are farther north-at Northmaven and Sandness.
11,720. Then the Faroe fishermen in your parish are only home twice in the summer?-Yes; they generally come home twice, once in June, and then about the beginning of harvest but some do not return until September.
11,721. Therefore they could not, in that case, be paid at the delivery of their fish, so as to have cash to deal with a merchant who is not employing them?-They could not.
11,722. Do you think you would have a better chance of business if they were settled with when they came home from Faroe, instead of having to wait for a good many months for a settlement?-I don't know. It takes so long a time to get the fish dried, that I don't think they could very well be settled with when they came home.
11,723. They might be settled with then if they were paid according to the weight of the fish when they were landed?- Yes; but I could not say whether I would do any better business in that case or not.
11,724. Do you think you would do a better business if you had some boats of your own?-Yes.
11,725. Why?-Because I would be getting more fish.
11,726. But would you do a better business in your provisions and goods?-Yes, I might be a small bit better.
11,727. Would that be because the men would come to you for supplies?-Yes; and then I would have more fish too.
11,728. Are the men at liberty to sell as many fish as they please to you in winter and spring?-Yes, at any time of the year.
11,729. Then you could engage a boat's crew in your district without any restriction?-Yes; there are no bound men there.
11,730. Are there many merchants in the parish of Sandsting who do about the same extent of business as you?-I think most of them do more business than me, because it is longer since they commenced, and they are better in the way of it.
11,731. Do you mean that they have got a larger connection?- Yes; and a better locality.
11,732. Are most of them engaged in buying fish?-No; there are scarcely any of them about me who are in the fishing trade, except Messrs. Garriock & Co. They have almost all the fishing business in that part of the country.
11,733. Have they the largest shop business too?-Yes.
11,734. Whom do you sell your fish to?-To Mr. Harrison generally. We sell them to him as soon as they are dried at the end of the year.
11,735. Are you paid for them in cash?-Yes, if we want cash.
11,736. If you don't want cash, do you take goods for your shop?-Yes, if we want them; but if we want cash he gives it at any time either in advance or at settling time.
11,737. But he does supply goods in a wholesale way to merchants?-Yes; he sometimes supplies me with little meal and tea, and general groceries.
11,738. Do you not get all your supplies from him?-No, not the whole of them. I think I get as much from Glasgow as from him; generally from two houses there.
11,739. What do you get from Glasgow?-Tea and sugar and coffee, and general groceries.
11,740. Do you also get the same articles from Harrison & Sons?-Yes.
11,741. Do you pay the same price to both?-They are nearly all about the same price, except that the goods from Glasgow may be about a halfpenny per pound less.
11,742. Is that after allowing for freight?-No; it is taking them at cost price.
11,743. Do you write for these things to Glasgow direct?-Yes, when I get them from there.
11,744. When do you order them from there?-My [Page 288] dealings in that way are not always at the one time. Sometimes in the spring I order them fortnightly, and sometimes monthly, and sometimes at longer intervals. They are sent to Lerwick in the steamboat, and brought across to Scalloway by carts, and I come here with a boat for them. I think it is about six weeks since I got any tea from Glasgow, and it is a month since I got some other stuff.
11,745. Did you come from Sandsound to Scalloway for the tea?- No; I took it out the north road Weisdale and all overland.
11,746. Did you come to Scalloway on purpose for that?-No; the north carts took it out.
11,747. Do you think the tea which you got in that way cost you more when it was delivered than the tea you got from Harrison & Sons?-No. I think that, taking it on the whole, and after paying the freight it would come to just about the same.
11,748. Were the qualities the same?-Yes, as near as I could judge.
11,749. Do you sell both kinds of tea at the same price?-Yes, at 8d.
11,750. How much of your fish that you sell to Harrison & Sons will be paid for in goods?-About one half as near as I can judge.
11,751. Do you receive the other half in cash?-Yes.
11,752. Was that the case last year?-Yes.
11,753. When do you settle with Harrison & Sons?-I settled with them last year on 1st October for the fish which I had got in the previous winter and spring.
11,754. Do many of the shops in your parish deal with Harrison & Sons in the same way?-I think none of them do. None of the other merchants there sell fish to them, so far as I am aware.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, AGNES TAIT, examined.
11,755. You live in Scalloway?-Yes.
11,756. Do you live alone?-Yes.
11,757. Do you support yourself entirely by knitting?-Yes; I cannot work at anything else. I knit fine shawls and veils. I have knitted for the last six months to Mr. Moncrieff with his worsted, and I have been paid in goods. Before that I knitted with my own worsted, and I sold my work to any merchant in Lerwick, generally to Mr. Sinclair. I never asked any money from him, because we knew that it was the rule that we would not get it. I wanted it for many purposes; but I would not have got it even though I had asked it.
11,758. But you could not get on without some money, I suppose?- No. I sent some shawls and veils south for money with which to pay my rent.
11,759. Did you get enough money from them for all that you wanted?-I was often at a loss for money, and then I had to sell tea and other things which I had got in Lerwick for my hosiery. I sold tea and soft goods to any neighbour who was kind enough to take them.
11,760. Such as Mrs. Tait?-No, I never sold any to Mrs. Tait.
11,761. Did you sell your things often in that way?-Yes, very often.
11,762. Every month?-I don't think I did it every month.
11,763. Did you do it two or three times every year?-Yes; oftener than that.
11,764. How much goods did you sell in that way?-If I sold a shawl for about 18s. I would get 18s. worth of goods, and of that a good deal was tea-perhaps one pound or a pound and a half.
11,765. Would you sell all that tea?-Yes.
11,766. And something else besides?-I don't recollect of selling anything else except the tea.
11,767. Did you always bring home some tea from Lerwick in order to sell it?-Yes.
11,768. And did you always find some of your neighbours ready to buy it?-Yes; there were always some of them kind enough to buy it from me.
11,769. Did you sell it at the full price that it had cost you?-Yes.
11,770. You did not sell it under its value?-No.
11,771. You did that very often, because you had no other way of getting money?-Yes.
11,772. Do you ever get any lines from the merchants in Lerwick?-No.
11,773. Do you always settle for your hosiery articles at once?- Yes.
11,774. Would you rather have money than be paid for your work in the way you have mentioned?-Yes, I would rather have money; but we knew that we would not get it, and therefore we never asked it.
11,775. Do you think you could make a better use of the money than you do of the goods?-Yes, a great deal better.
11,776. You think you could turn it to better account?-Yes.
11,777. Do you think you take more out in soft goods than you require?-We often take out things which we are not requiring. We cannot get anything else and therefore we have just to take out the goods.
11,778. Can you mention anything which you have taken out when you were not requiring it?-No. I afterwards sold it; I did not keep it.
11,779. What are the goods you have sold?-Cottons.
11,780. Anything else?-No; but I have not sold any cotton for the last twelve months.
11,781. Did you ever sell cotton or any other goods under the price you paid for them?-No, I generally got the value. I did not sell these things about Scalloway; I went up occasionally to see some friends of mine in the west side of Sandsting, and I took the goods with me.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, WILLIAM HARCUS, examined.
11,782. You are a merchant in Scalloway?-Yes; I have a small business here. I have carried on business as a merchant here for between four and five years.
11,783. Have you many transactions with the fishermen here?-I have, in buying and selling groceries and general goods, but not in curing fish.
11,784. Do you run any accounts with fishermen?-No; unless perhaps for a few days, until they come back again to settle. It could not be said that I do credit trade. It is professedly a cash trade.
11,785. Have you any disadvantages in carrying on your trade from the system of barter which prevails in Shetland?-Perhaps if the whole trade were done in cash, there might be some advantages in some respects-that is to say, if there was money always coming to the fishermen at the end of the season, or when the settlement takes place.
11,786. If that were so, you think a merchant carrying on a cash business would be able to increase his receipts?-I think so.
11,787. Is it your opinion, from your own experience, that a ready-money business is limited by the want of money in the hands of the fishermen and tenants in the district?-I think it is. I think if there was money there would be more trade done in a ready-money way than there is.
11,788. Are you aware that very little money, compared with the amount of their earnings, passes into the hands of the fishermen?-I have no means of knowing that exactly; but I don't see much money, among the fishermen. What money we get is principally from sailors returning from the south, and, of course, a little from the fishermen after settling time.
11,789. Do you find that your business is larger after settling time than at other times?-Last year it was larger, because there was a good Faroe fishing. This year I don't think there has been any difference.
11,790. Do your books show that there is a larger [Page 289] cash business done after settling time?-No, my books don't show that. I don't enter cash transactions in them.
11,791. How do you know that the business was larger at that time?-Just by noticing the daily or weekly drawings.
11,792. Did you keep notes of your weekly drawings?-I did at one time, but I have been so busy lately, and so much away from home, that I have not got that attended to.
11,793. How long is it since you kept notes of your weekly drawings which would show whether your business increased or not in the spring?-I think it was only in the first year that I was in business that I did so; but I can recollect pretty well about the average amount of my weekly drawings. In a small business like mine we can depend a good deal upon the memory for that.
11,794. And so far as your recollection serves you, you think your weekly drawings were larger at that period?-Yes. When there has been a good fishing, and the men have something to get at the settlement our drawings are usually larger after that.
11,795. Do you think that shows that the men prefer, when they have money in their hands, to deal with you rather than to deal with the fish merchant who employs them?-I don't think it does; at least I could not say that it does, because the fish merchant who employs them might be having a larger cash return at that time too.
11,796. At all events you may fairly entertain the opinion that you would have a better chance among the fishermen if a cash system were general?-I think so.
11,797. If, for example, the fishermen were paid by weekly, or fortnightly, or monthly payments, for their fish delivered during the summer, do you think you would be more likely to obtain an additional share of their custom?-If that were possible, I might; but I don't think it would be possible to pay them at such short periods, because it would occupy so much time. The fishermen would have to come in and wait perhaps whole days before they could be settled with, and I don't think that would be a good plan for them at all.
11,798. If a note of the fish is taken at the time when they are delivered, would there be any difficulty in settling at the same time?-I never considered that; but I think there would be a difficulty in settling with the fishermen every day when they landed their fish.
11,799. In winter and spring they are settled with every time they deliver fish?-Yes; but the quantity delivered then is comparatively small. Sometimes in summer the fishermen are working ten or twelve miles away from where the curer is, and of course, to come in and be settled with every week, or even every month, would be a great hardship. They might lose very good days when they could be more profitably employed at the fishing. I think quarterly or half-yearly settlements would be as much as could be managed.
11,800. You have not had any experience yourself in settling with fishermen, either before you began business here or since?-No. I have a few men fishing lobsters, but they are not worth speaking about. I think there are only three crews' of them, and I settle always with them when they bring up their fish; but the trade is so small that there is no difficulty in settling with them then.
11,801. How long does that fishing last?-It is only carried on during the winter; and it was arranged that they should come fortnightly with the lobsters, and settle fortnightly, when the weather would permit them.
11,802. Do you do anything in the oyster fishery?-I did at one time, and I still do a little, but there are very few to be had.
11,803. How are they paid for?-In cash when I buy them.
11,804. Do you know what is the practice of other buyers-I would rather that they should state that themselves. I think Mr. Nicholson buys for cash, but I am not certain. He is present.
11,805. When you settle for your lobsters, where is the payment made?-In my shop.
11,806. In that case do the men generally spend part of the cash there and then?-They sometimes spend part of it.
11,807. Do they not spend part of it generally?-Yes; but I lay down the money on the counter, and they take it up. They have the choice either of spending it or taking it away.
11,808. Are accounts kept with any of these men?-With one of them who superintends the bringing home of the oysters, there is an account kept.
11,809. How often is that account settled?-Just whenever he wants a settlement. He always gets money with him to disburse for current expenses, and he is permitted to take from that whatever he wants for his own use; and if he requires more money, then there is a settlement.
11,810. Do you mean that you settle with him whenever he wants a new advance?-No. He always has some money of mine in his hands, and he has authority to use that both in paying the men who are fishing for me, and for his own use.
11,811. But when that money is exhausted he comes and gets a new supply?-He settles for that money, and what he has taken for his own use is put to his own account, and his own account is settled whenever he wishes to see how we stand. That is done frequently; and I have the book here which is kept with him. [Produces pass-book.] This [showing] is the cash he gets for the general account, £7, 13s. 4d., and then £10, and then £3, 17s. 2d. At that time he was in a different trade; he was collecting shell-fish. Then he buys produce, and the account is balanced at the end of October, when he has £5 still on hand to give me. Here [showing] the account balanced again, and he had £2 still on hand.
11,812. You keep that pass-book with that man; but not with the other fishermen whom he employs?-No. They just get their money.
11,813. Where are these men employed?-In St. Magnus Bay.
11,814. That is a long way from here?-Yes.
11,815. These are not the men that are paid in your shop?-The men who bring the oysters are paid in the shop, and sometimes one of these men may come along with the other man to help him to bring home the lobsters, and then they are all paid in the shop.
11,816. But not the others who do not come?-No. The man who has charge of the fishing for me takes the money with him to pay them when he goes back.
11,817. I understood you to say that when the men came with oysters and lobsters to the shop, and were paid, they generally took away some supplies from the shop?-They generally do but they are not asked to do it.
11,818. Do they appear to think it a fair and proper thing that they should do so?-I think they do. I have heard them remark that they ought to spend the money where they get it.
11,819. Is that a common sort of feeling among the men?-Yes, it is a common feeling in the country.
11,820. In short, they apologize if they don't spend the money in the shop where they get it?-Something like that I should not say, that they apologize, but sometimes they tell me what they want the money for, and they say they have to take it away. Of course, they are not asked to leave it.
11,821. But there seems to be a kind of understanding that they are to spend part of their earnings in the shop?-The people seem to have the opinion that they ought to do that.
11,822. And I suppose the merchant has some feeling of the same kind also?-I never ask them to spend the money in the shop; but, of course, we are glad to get what money we can.
11,823. I suppose they don't require to be asked to spend some of it?-No.
11,824. Are you engaged in the hosiery trade at all?-I once bought a little, just to try the trade, but I gave it up. My experience of it was that it would not pay. Being the only one about here who gave [Page 290] meal for the hosiery, it was principally meal that was taken, and I found no profit on it.
11,825. Then that would lead you to form the opinion that it would not pay unless soft goods were taken in return for the hosiery?- Unless goods were taken on which a heavy profit was got, I did not see that it could pay me; but I tried the trade for so short a time that I could hardly say I gave a fair trial, or that I could speak so well about it as one who had tried it for years.
11,826. Do you not think it would be a more expedient system if hosiery goods were paid in cash, according to prices regulated by the demand, and that the merchants should make a fair profit upon the hosiery itself?-That is my opinion. I believe that everything ought to be paid for in cash, at a fair price to allow a profit.
11,827. Have you had many cases coming under your observation in which women have been unable to obtain the necessaries of life without bartering away the goods they have obtained for their hosiery?-I have known few cases of that kind.
11,828. Have you been induced to purchase goods from these women?-No.
11,829. Have you known parties who have done so?-No. They have been offered in my shop, but I have never bought any of them.
11,830. Have they been frequently offered?- Not very frequently; but I have no doubt, if I had begun to buy them, they would have been offered more frequently.
11,831. Do women generally expect to get the full price for the goods which they offer?-I just refused to buy them. I never came to the question of price at all, because if I had begun to buy goods in that way, my trade would have degenerated entirely into an agency for that sort of barter.
11,832. Are you aware whether there are parties in the country whose principal trade consists in purchasing goods from such women and selling them again?-I am not aware of any.
11,833. You don't know whether there are hawkers or pedlars who live in that way?-I don't know. I think it is only right for me to say that it takes a long time to settle with Shetland men owing to them not being able to read accounts, and that may account for the fact that they settle so seldom. I believe that if crew were to settle every three months, it might take them a whole day to carry through that settlement.
11,834. Is that from defective education in arithmetic?-Yes, from defective education.
11,835. Shetland men generally seem a very intelligent and well-educated class of men for their rank of life?-Some of them are.
11,836. Do you think they are further back in arithmetic than in other branches of education?-I think so.
11,837. How do you account for that?-I cannot account for it.
11,838. In what way have you ascertained that fact?-In settling with the few men that I have had dealings with.
11,839. Don't you think that if pass-books were kept regularly the settlement would become a shorter process than it is?-Yes; but many of them would not be able to read the pass-books, and of course they would be of little use to them. Still, a great many now can read them, because the boys are being better educated, and I think the country is getting ripe for a new system. I think it right you add that pass-books, as a matter of course, should be given to every one having accounts.
11,840. But suppose the parties having accounts don't choose to bring pass-books with them, and neglect to keep them up, are they not themselves to blame?-Yes; the merchants cannot help that.
11,841. Don't you think it would be as easy for the fishermen to have the price of their fish entered in the fish book at the time they are delivered, and the calculation of the whole value made at that time: the amount of each take of fish is entered in the fish book when it is landed?-I suppose so, but I have no experience of that.
11,842. Might the price not be entered as easily?-I should think so; but that will be a question for those who are engaged in the trade. I can see no reason why it should not be done; but I understand the custom of the country is to fix the price afterwards at the end of the season.
11,843. But the price might be fixed according to the current price at the end of the season?-I have had no experience on that matter, and I cannot say.*
11,844. If you don't drive a credit trade, I suppose you don't keep any books except a day-book?-I just keep a day-book and ledger, for the wholesale trade. There are no retail transactions that pass through my books at all. The ledger contains the names of those I deal with in the south.
11,845. Are the prices at which you sell provisions higher or lower than those at which they are sold in the neighbouring shops?-It would be impossible for me to say exactly; but I think they are about the same.
11,846. What is the retail price of meal just now in your shop?-It is 141/2d. per peck.
11,847. And of flour?-There are two kinds, one at 1s. and on at 13d. Meal is always 1/2d. peck dearer in Scalloway than in Lerwick, on account of the cartage.
11,848. Is there no meal brought here by sea?-Very little.
11,849. Have you many business transactions with the inhabitants of Burra?-Yes, some.
11,850. Do some of the men purchase at your shop the supplies they require for their families?-Yes, occasionally.
11,851. Do they do so for ready money, or upon credit?-Either for ready money or for eggs.
11,852. Do they sell all their eggs to you?-I don't know. I think they sell to all the grocers in the village.
11,853. In what way are their eggs paid for?-The eggs are generally paid for in barter at one price, and [Page 291] in cash at another price; but, for the last three months, I have bought them at the barter price for cash. The present price is 9d. per dozen, whether paid for in goods or cash, but they are very seldom sold for cash.
11,854. What is the kind of goods generally taken in exchange for eggs?-Everything we sell-tea, sugar, meal, bread, and soft goods.
11,855. Do you export a number of the eggs you buy?-Yes. They are sent south by the steamer.
11,856. Have there been any whales driven in here, while you have been resident in Scalloway?-There was one shoal of whales driven into the bay below this place since I came here. They were sold by auction. Mr. Garriock, of Reawick, managed the sale. The parties concerned in the capture got two-thirds of the proceeds of the oil as their share.
11,857. Are you aware that complaints are made with regard to the landlord's claim to have one-third of the oil?-Yes; there have been complaints made. I had a share in the whales that were driven ashore, and I wrote to the Board of Trade about it, but it seemed they could do nothing; at least they did not choose to do anything in the matter.
11,858. Were the whales of the bottle-nosed kind?-No. They are known by the name of caain, or driving whales.
11,859. Did the Board of Trade decline to interfere on the ground that the Crown had no interest in the kind of whale that was driven ashore?-Yes; they said the Crown had no interest in that kind of whales. We thought, as the Government claim the foreshores and beaches, the proprietors had no right to claim any share of the oil, because the blubber is never taken above high-water mark Most of the whales were killed at sea, and dragged ashore, and we thought the fishermen should have the same right to beach whales as to beach cod or ling, or anything else under the Act regulating the fishings.
11,860. Did you obtain any information at that time, as to the grounds upon which the landlords' claim for one-third of the whales was based?-I did not ascertain that they had any claim for it, other than the custom of the country, in the same way as they claim right to bind the fishermen to fish for them, and to no other. The Board of Trade did not say that the landlords had any right to claim the whales; they advised me to go to law and see; but I did not think it advisable to incur the expense of raising an action on my own account.
11,861. Have you found your trade hampered in any degree by the fishermen feeling under an obligation to deal for their supplies with the merchants by whom they are employed?-I have said already, that if the fishermen were paid oftener, more money would be circulated, and trade would be more divided; but it would all depend upon whether the fishermen were in debt or not, because we could not expect the fish-curers to pay those men who were in debt to them.
11,862. Have you found fishermen representing to you that they would purchase goods at your shop if they were not obliged to go where they could get credit?-I have occasionally heard such things here, but not very often.
11,863. Perhaps you have suspected that oftener than it has been expressed to you?-Yes.
11,864. A man does not always speak about his reasons for dealing with a particular merchant?-I don't think he does; but I don't think it fair if I pay ready money for such things as I buy, such as oysters and winkles, that others should not do the same to a greater extent than they do. I don't mean to say that they should cash for everything, but I think they should settle oftener.
11,865. You think the fishermen should be able to have a little money in their hands at times, instead of having it only once a year, in January?-I think so.
11,866. And even then, I suppose, they don't always have to get money?-I don't think they have.
11,867. Do you think that, upon the whole, your payments to fishermen are repaid to you?-Not at once. They may take the money home and come with it again, but it is not handed over to me at the time when the men get it. I have paid £40 in one week for shell-fish, without drawing more than £10.
11,868. Do your books show that?-No.
11,869. These were all cash transactions?-Yes.
11,870. But I suppose you may sometimes have paid £40 out in a week and drawn £30 of it back?-No. I never drew £30.
* Mr. Harcus afterwards sent a letter in which he said-
'Finding that exception has been taken by certain of my neighbours to a part of my evidence before the Truck Commission, I wish to say in explanation, that when the question was put whether I would approve in all cases of daily or weekly settlements, several difficulties occurred to my mind, and the want of proficiency in arithmetic among the fishermen was one of them, and not the only one, as is being attempted to be made to appear. I hope my words will bear out this idea. If my memory serves me right I gave as one difficulty the great distance between the fishing-ground and curer's headquarters; and I was having in consideration the extra expense that would be incurred if provision were made at out-stations for daily or weekly settlements, and the probability of an extra hand being required whose wages would have to come off the fisherman.
'With regard to my statements as to the proportion of Shetland fishermen who would be able to settle quickly by having pass-books, I was considering that it would be the duty of the men to divide their own shares, and to make all calculations ready for entering in their several pass-books, and that where there were boys forming part of a crew, and having fractional shares, very few indeed of the men could divide such shares. I think I also stated that I was speaking of those I had dealt with; but, of course, I could not be understood to speak of anything further than my experience went.
'I was also having in view that should a crew only require a few minutes to settle, yet if many crews came up at one time, as the tides and nature of the fishing would necessitate, some of them would have to wait several hours, which time could not possibly be spared, as during the busy part of the season the men can only allow themselves from four to five hours out of the twenty-four for sleep. Neither do I think that pass-books can expedite settlement much as some say. They can do little more than save the time required to head a printed form of account, say three or four minutes for each crew; but of course, are indispensable for other purposes.
'It will be seen from my evidence that the oftener curers settle with their men the better for my trade; and therefore, wishing to guard against having my mind influenced by selfish motive, I stated honestly what objections to daily or weekly settlements occurred to my mind at the moment.
'I trust it will be seen from my evidence as to my own practice that I approve of making settlements as often as practicable, in order to teach the people self-reliance and provident habits, and also to give them a chance to lay out their earnings to the best advantage.
' I have no wish to disparage this people. On the contrary, I think they deserve very great praise for being what they are under very unfavourable circumstances, and if this were the proper place I would have great pleasure in saying a good deal on this point; but though their general intelligence is perhaps superior to that of the same class in any other part of the country, I have not met with much proficiency in arithmetic among old and middle-aged men especially; and it is not difficult to see from the evidence the small amount of their experience in handling accounts, and the want of inducements to cultivate the art of book-keeping.'
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Rev. NICOL NICOLSON, examined.
11,871. You are a clergyman of the Independent Church in Scalloway?-I am. I have been twenty-two years here, first as missionary, and afterwards as pastor of a church.
11,872. Are your people mostly engaged in fishing?-Some of them are.
11,873. I suppose you are intimately acquainted with the condition of the fishing population of this district?-It appears to me by this time that I am not so well acquainted with it as I thought, because I have been hearing things coming out that I did not understand to be the case before the evidence was given.
11,874. Were you aware of the fact that very few fishermen received a large part of their earnings in money?-I understood that all of them who were out of debt got money from the merchants when they wanted it. I was once a fisherman myself, and that was the way in which I was dealt with. I did not think that in any of the shops here the men who had cash in the merchant's hands, and who were in necessity for it would not have got it.
11,875. Do you not think it would be better for the fishermen to be paid for their fish more frequently than once a year?-There are certain boats that deliver their fish weekly, and certainly it would be better for the men in them to be paid weekly; but there are a great many of the fishermen employed in smacks, from which they do not come ashore weekly, nor monthly.
11,876. Do you mean that the Faroe fishermen cannot be paid at short intervals?-I mean that those who fit out smacks and agree with men to fish on board of them for the season, cannot bring about a settlement with them until the end of the season.
11,877. But would it not be expedient for a man who is engaged in the home fishing, and who comes ashore every two or three days, to have his money paid to him at shorter intervals than those at which he now gets it, so that he might use it at his own discretion?-It has come under my observation that many crews who were ready to fish had no boat nor lines until they went to a merchant who would supply them with them, and then they made an agreement with that merchant to fish for him. They are in debt before they begin, and how can they be paid until the merchant sees his boat and lines clear?-Until they are cleared, he cannot afford to pay the men.
11,878. But in other trades, merchants frequently have to pay weekly wages to the men they employ, and take their risk of the market?-They take their risk of the market as it is; but if a merchant has due to him the whole value of the boat and lines, he cannot pay money down to the men and allow them to go away with it. He must keep it until he gets paid, or else he will be a poor man.
11,879. Would it not be within the power of the fishermen to purchase their own boats and lines?-They should do that, but I don't find them doing it. I know of only one man here who has done it.
11,880. Do you think it is impossible for the ordinary run of fishermen to make as much money as would pay for their boat and lines?-Most of the fishermen hereabout can never do it, owing to the way they live and the small fishings they make. They are not very fit to go out except in fine weather; and then they have to maintain themselves on shore in coarse weather.
11,881. How does the way in which they live prevent [Page 292] them from being able to purchase boats and lines?-They are poor men; they have no capital; and they are neither fed nor clothed in such a way as to enable them to carry on the fishing properly. If any man will give them credit for a boat and lines they just hang on with him, and never make money, or catch fish from which money can be made. I know a number of boats that seem to do very little all the year round. The crews are mostly old, worn-out men, and some of them are perhaps not very provident at home. I never saw them fed and clothed like regular fishermen; and you cannot expect them to go to sea properly.
11,882. What do you mean when you say that they are not fed and clothed like regular fishermen?-I mean like fishermen on the coast of Scotland, or in any other place.
11,883. Have you had some experience among fishermen on the coast of Scotland or elsewhere than here?-Not on the coast of Scotland, further than that I have gone among them, and spoken with them, and seen how they get on. I have seen them go off almost every day in winter, unless when there was a very extra breeze of wind.
11,884. Have they better boats in these places?-Yes; they have good boats, and they are well-clad, well-fed, healthy men; while there are men going on board the boats here who I believe, these other men would not take on board with them, owing to their want of strength.
11,885. You are not speaking of the ordinary run of Shetland fishermen just now?-I am speaking of the Scalloway men. I understand that in some of the islands, such as Burra, there are a class of very good men; but here there are no men staying ashore, except young boys and old men. All the rest go into the merchant service. A few go to Faroe, but only a few.
11,886. It is among these people who live in Scalloway that your experience chiefly lies?-Yes; it is to them I refer when I speak of the people about here.
11,887. So that when you are speaking about the advantages or disadvantages of a change, your remarks rather apply to the people of Scalloway than to the Shetland fishermen in general?-I say that most of the fishermen with whom I am acquainted in Scalloway, except one boat's crew, are such men as never do make earnings. They cannot get their boat and lines except on credit, and the merchants who give them out on credit require to keep what little fish they catch until these are paid, while the poor men are always asking for further advances on which to live. Therefore the men cannot have any money; and I don't blame the merchants, because the men still continue indebted to them.
11,888. Do you entertain that opinion with regard to other fishermen, strong young men, who are able to make better fishings than those you are now speaking of?-I believe there are such men in Burra, and perhaps even in Trondra, but I don't know any such men in Scalloway who are inclined to go to the fishing. Strong young men there go elsewhere.
11,889. Could these strong young men in Burra and Trondra purchase their own boats?-I think they could.
11,890. And that you consider would be an advantage to any fisherman?-Yes, it would be an advantage but I question whether many of the young men in Burra would confine themselves to boat fishing.
11,891. Do you think the system of being paid only once a year has the effect of producing improvident habits among the men?-I don't know. I was once a fisherman myself, and paid once a year, and I liked it well enough, for if I wanted money sooner I got it; but if I could do without it, I was pleased to get a larger sum at one time, and have it in reserve.
11,892. There is no doubt that, to many men, it may be an advantage to get a large sum paid at once; but, looking at the generality of the people that you live among, do you not think it would be better for them to have their money in their hand, paid to them every fortnight or every month? May they not, under the present system, run up larger accounts with the merchant who supplies them than they can afford to pay?-I am not aware that money is forthcoming at all from the fishing carried on in these boats. I have already said that I don't think the boats are fished so as to clear money, and consequently the men cannot have money. They are generally very poor and in debt.
11,893. Do you mean that almost all, the men in Scalloway are so?-All the fishermen that are in the boats, except one boat's crew that stands on a different footing from the others.
11,894. Do you ascribe that to the system which prevails here, or to any fault on the part of the men?-I can scarcely ascribe it to the fault of the men; I would say it was their misfortune. They are old and some of them infirm, and they cannot fish like stout, healthy men.
11,895. Have many cases come under your observation in which women who knit have been in distress for want of food in consequence of the way in which the hosiery is paid for?- I have not generally heard them blame the hosiery system for it exactly, but just the want of general employment.
11,896. I suppose most of the women here knit more or less?- Yes; I believe the greater part of them do.
11,897. And I suppose you are aware that knitting is almost invariably paid for in goods and not in money?-In listening to the examinations here to-day, I have heard conflicting accounts about that. One woman said they got no money, and another said she got as high as 6s. and 8s. at a time.
11,898. But even that woman admitted that the rule was to pay in goods, although she got money when she asked for it?-I believe it is the rule to pay in goods.
11,899. Have you had any experience as to the effect of that upon the female portion of the population?-I think most of them that I am acquainted with act very judiciously notwithstanding.
11,900. They are able to keep themselves notwithstanding that they do not get payment for their labour except in goods?-Of course they do keep themselves; but they are not so well off as they would require to be. If they could get part of the payment in cash, it would no doubt be a great advantage to them.
11,901. Do you think they would make a good use of the money if they had it?-There may be exceptions, but generally, I think, they are a provident people.
11,902. Do you think the women who are paid in goods for their hosiery sometimes get things which they do not need, simply because they are asked to take shop goods in payment instead of money?-I am not personally aware of that. I heard one woman say to-day that she sometimes had a good deal of things lying on hand; but I don't know of that being the case from my own experience.
11,903. The people have not complained to you with regard to it?-They have not. Some of them have said to me they would like to have money, while others have said they were quite well satisfied with goods.
11,904. Is there any other statement you can make with regard to the subject of this inquiry?-I am not aware that there is. I may say that I am in no way obliged either to the hosiery merchants or to the fishcurers. My living comes quite from another quarter; but I must say, when I am asked, that I believe we have honest men in both departments of business, both as buyers of hosiery and as curers of fish. I don't think any country will produce men of better principles, so far as my knowledge goes.
11,905. Does it follow from that that the system which they work is a good one?-No; I would not say that. I should like to see a better system brought in, if it could work; and I believe the merchants themselves would be glad to see a ready-money system introduced if it were possible; but the difficulty is to see how it can be got to act. We have hosiery merchants here, such as Mr. Harcus, who have tried it, and who have had to give it up, because they found it would not work.
[Page 293]
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, CHARLES NICHOLSON, examined.
11,906. You are a merchant in Scalloway?-I have been. I retired from business a year ago. My son, Gideon Nicholson, my daughter, Mrs. Tait, and another daughter's husband, David Dalgleish, succeeded me.
11,907. How long were you in business in Scalloway before you retired?-About 25 years.
11,908. Were you engaged in business both as a fishcurer and as a draper and general merchant?-Yes.
11,909. How many boats did you generally employ in the haaf fishing?-About ten or twelve boats for the ling fishing in the summer time. In some years the numbers differed.
11,910. Were these boats generally manned from Scalloway and the district round about?-No, there were very few of them from Scalloway. There were some from Maywick, parish of Bigton, about twelve miles south, and some from the island of Havera.
11,911. Had you a fishing station there?-The fish could not be cured there, as there was not a beach for that purpose, and they had all to be brought to Burra to be cured. For the last two or three years they have been brought to Scalloway, and cured on beaches here.
11,912. Were you tacksman of any properties in that district?- No, I never was tacksman; but the proprietor, Mr. Bruce of Simbister, held me accountable for the rents of the fishermen employed by me. He holds us accountable for them yet. It is in Messrs. Hay's hands just now, because Mr. Bruce does not act for himself.
11,913. In what way do you arrange about the rents of the fishermen whom you employ?-I have seen that when a fisherman was £10 or £20 in my debt I still considered that I had to pay his rent for him to the proprietor. I have paid the proprietor from £60 to £80 a year when the fishermen were perhaps due me £100 or £200.
11,914. Was that done under an obligation which had been undertaken by you to the proprietor?-No; I never undertook the thing, but I always did it for the poor men.
11,915. Was there a kind of understanding between you and the fishermen that you should advance the money for their rent?- There was not much understanding about it, but I always did it, and it is done at the present time.
11,916. Is that done for the accommodation of the proprietor, or for the accommodation of the men?-It accommodates both parties. Many of the men could not pay their rent themselves, and what were they to do if it was not paid for them?-Their corn and crop would have to be taken from them, and they would have had to come to me for more meal next summer. Therefore it was better for me to allow them to keep their crops and to pay their rents for them.
11,917. In what way is the payment made? Is it done by you handing the money to the men with which to go and pay their rent themselves, or do you put it down against them in their account, and send the proprietor a cheque for the sum?-Often before the time when it should be settled I pay it to Mr. Bruce or to Messrs. Hay.
11,918. Do you often pay the whole rent of the men in your employment, to Mr. Bruce, in one sum?-Yes, or rather to Mr. Bruce's factor. When the men had anything particular to say to their proprietor they would come along to me for the cash, and take it to him; but with regard to the body of the men, I never put them to that trouble. It was some trouble for them to go from Scalloway to Lerwick, and then to travel home age in.
11,919. Do you get separate receipts for all the men, and give them to them at settlement?-Yes.
11,920. Is the rent generally paid on their account before settlement?-Very often it is, or about that time. The term for the payment of their rent is at Martinmas, upon 11th November, and it is generally same time after that before we commence to settle with the fishermen. We must know what price we are to get in the market for the fish before we know what we are to give them, or how we are to settle with them.
11,921. What sum did you pay to the proprietor in that way during the last two or three years you were in business?-I should say that about £60, or from £60 to £70, would be about the usual thing.
11,922. Would the amount of each man's rent be about £4 or £5?-Yes, perhaps some higher, and some a little lower.
11,923. Then perhaps twelve or fifteen men would have their rents paid in that way?-Yes.
11,924. But that would only be a portion of the men you were employing?-Yes.
11,925. If you had ten or twelve boats, you would have fifty or sixty men employed in them?-No. Some of them are small boats that fish close to the shore, with perhaps three men in them, or two men and two boys.
11,926. Then you might employ perhaps thirty men and boys altogether?-Yes.
11,927. Would one half of these men not be tenants at all?-Most of them were tenants of Mr. Bruce.
11,928. Were they under any obligation to fish for you?-No.
11,929. Could they have engaged with any other person if they had liked?-Yes.
11,930. Have you objected to pay the rent for any one of these men when he was considerably in your debt?-No. If I paid for one, I paid for all. I have paid rent for a man who was between £20 and £30 in my debt.
11,931. Does the landlord give you any return for these advances which you make to him?-No.
11,932. Is it not a considerable advantage to him to have his rent made secure in that way?-There is no doubt about it.
11,933. But don't you get anything from him even in the shape of a favour?-No; I never asked it, and never got it.
11,934. Have you any fishing station on Mr. Bruce's property?- No. The fishermen on the island of Havera cure their fish in the island, and that is on his property, but I have no concern with anything else.
11,935. Do they cure their fish themselves, and sell them to you?-They cure them on the island, and send them to Scalloway, and I sell them for them.
11,936. Have they an arrangement peculiar to themselves about their fish?-No, there is no peculiar arrangement. Their fish have always been under their own command, and I could not sell them without their consent, and I have lost considerably by that.
11,937. In selling their fish do you act as their agent?-Yes.
11,938. Do you charge a commission for that?-I never had so much good sense as to ask a commission; I did it for nothing.
11,939. You sold them for them, and I suppose they took a quantity of goods from you when they wanted them?-Yes. They took lines and hooks, and bread and clothes, and such things as they required.
11,940. Did they get all their supplies from you?-I think they got the most part of them from me.
11,941. How many people live at Havera?-I think there are four families, but I am not sure.
11,942. Do the other people on Mr. Bruce's estate who fish for you, and whose rent you pay, deal entirely in your shop for their supplies?-I think the most part of them do.
11,943. Is that one reason why you pay their rents for them?-I suppose so.
11,944. Do you find that these men are generally in your debt at settlement?-Only some of them. There are some of the men who have always plenty of money to get, but there are others who have commonly been behind.