12,888. But you think it would not work so well to have the men paid every time the boat came in in summer?-I don't think it would, because they would be liable to spend the money.
12,889. Is that the only reason why you think that system would not work?-Yes, the only reason.
12,890. Would there be any difficulty in settling?-We don't experience any difficulty in settling with our men.
12,891. Might it not require a curer at a station such as Spiggie or Ireland, or at a more distant place, to have a more efficient factor there than he would otherwise have, and perhaps also to keep money there?-That might be avoided. For instance, Mr. Irvine has some workmen here who work for him in building houses and other things; and he tells their foreman to hand us in a note of their time every fortnight, in order that we may settle up with the men. The men don't choose to draw their money whenever it falls due; but we give the foreman a few pounds, and he gives them as much money as they like to draw. Some of them don't draw any of their wages until the end of the season, when they get it to pay their rents with; and the fishing might be managed in the same way.
12,892. Are those masons and labourers who are employed by Mr. Irvine?-Yes; on the Simbister estate. Of course they know the money is there, and they can draw it every fortnight if they like; but there is nothing to prevent them from leaving it until the end of the season, or whenever they wish to square up.
12,893. I suppose these men very often have accounts running at the same time?-Some of them have, and some have not; but that is quite a distinct matter. Their wages are always paid to them in cash.
12,894. But they often don't choose to ask for it?-They sometimes don't choose to ask for it till the end of the season.
12,895. Do you think they have a fear themselves that it might be spent if they took it sooner?-It is quite possible they have.
12,896. And they get what they want in the meantime at your shop, or anywhere else where they can have credit?-They may or they may not, as they like. That is entirely at their own option; but they can get supplies of cash from their foreman when they want them.
12,897. Is it the foreman who gives the money to them?-Yes. We supply the foreman with cash when he wants it; and then he gives it to the men when they want it, and charges it against them.
12,898. You have a note of the men's time furnished [Page 320] to you every fortnight by the foreman. What is the purpose of that?-In order that the accounts may be regularly kept.
12,899. Who keeps the accounts?-We do.
12,900. Do you add up the men's time every fortnight, and make a note of the amount that is due to each?-Yes.
12,901. In that way, supposing a man has an account with you, you know whether he has been overdrawing it in goods or otherwise?-Yes; but he draws the cash from the foreman if he applies for it, and then the foreman gives us a note of the cash he has paid, and of the man's time for the fortnight.
12,902. But if the man takes out goods he settles with you?-Yes; or if he draws the money from the foreman, he pays the goods he has got from us with it.
12,903. If he has an account with you, in that case he will settle with you at once?-If he has an account with us he allows his account to go on, and the foreman pays him cash when he wants it When he gets cash from the foreman, it is at his own option to square his account with it or not, as he likes.
12,904. If the man is in your debt, do you still give him the cash?-Yes.
12,905. But you could retain it if there was any doubt about the men's solvency?-We always do hand them the cash.
12,906. You have never had occasion to retain it on account of a man's delay or refusal to pay his debt?-No.
12,907. Do you sometimes get stray lots of fish during the summer?-Not much. Sometimes, perhaps, we get a 'supper piltock.' The men take home a few fish for their own family use, Sometimes a man has large family, and another man has a small family, but they require to take home an equal number of fish to each of them; and then the man who does not require so much sells what he has got extra and that is called a supper piltock.
12,908. I suppose there is not much smuggling of fish going on here?-I don't think so; not in the summer time.
12,909. But if a man who is bound to fish wants a little ready money, does he not come to you with a lot of fish?-Not in the summer time; they would not be safe to do that. They would get their warning if they sold their fish past their proprietor in the summer time.
12,910. If it were known?-Yes, if it were known.
12,911. But don't they try to do it sometimes on the sly?-I don't know that they do.
12,912. You take them all for supper piltocks, if any are brought to you?-I suppose so.
12,913. Do you buy hosiery upon the system that is usual in the country?-No; we buy for cash.
12,914. Are you the only merchants in Shetland who do so?-I don't know; but it is very little hosiery we deal in. We find it very easy to buy, but very difficult to sell. We are not rightly in the market. We wish to carry on the hosiery trade on the same principle as the rest of our business, buying everything at a cash price, and giving cash for it if it is asked.
12,915. Do you find any unwillingness on the part of the knitters to take lower prices for their hosiery if they are to be paid for it in cash?-No, they are ready to sell for lower prices if they can get cash; and so they may, because sometimes girls come into our shop with cottons or flowers or other goods which they have brought from Lerwick, and ask us to exchange them.
12,916. Are you often asked to take flowers in that way?-Not often, because we refuse to do it, unless they are goods which have been bought from ourselves. In that case we exchange them; but if they are bought from other parties we won't take them. We find that the goods which are offered to us as having been received for hosiery are very much higher priced than what we would sell the goods at ourselves.
12,917. Have you been offered goods in that way lately?-Not lately, because we have refused to take them. The girls have told us that there is no use asking for cash in Lerwick, because they won't get it, and they don't ask us to take the goods, because they know we won't take them.
12,918. Do you remember any case in which you were offered goods that had been obtained for hosiery at a lower price than they were nominally sold at to them?-I have been offered goods at a lower price, certainly, but I could not mention any particular case.
12,919. Has that happened more than once?-It has happened very often.
12,920. About what amount of business are you doing in hosiery on that system?-Very little at present.
12,921. Is that because you don't get a sale for it?-Yes. As I said, we have not got into the market rightly.
12,922. Do you find it difficult to get the hosiery sold at a profit when you buy it on that system?-Yes.
12,923. Have you been obliged to sell it at something like the price which you paid for it?-Yes, we don't look for a profit upon hosiery.
12,924. Then why do you deal in it if you don't look for a profit?-Because it gives the people a chance of getting cash for it, and then we have a chance of getting the cash again.
12,925. I suppose that generally you do get the cash again?- Generally we do; but that is quite optional with the people themselves.
12,926. Do you pay for hosiery in goods at all?-If they ask for goods, of course we give them goods; but if they ask for cash they get it. That is the way in which we do all our business. We put the goods that we buy at cash prices, and we put the goods that we sell at cash prices, and it is a matter of indifference to us whether they ask goods or cash.
12,927. But, in point of fact, the hosiery may be paid for in goods, and no cash may pass if the party so chooses?-That may happen, but we don't do it as rule. As a rule, some other party buys the hosiery who knows better about it than I do, and hands the cash to the party from whom the hosiery is bought, and then they are at liberty to buy from us, or from any other person they like.
12,928. Are the eggs which you buy paid for on the same principle?-They are paid for in goods or cash, as the parties wish.
12,929. But the custom of the country is to pay for them in goods?-That is the custom of the country.
12,930. Do you generally find that the people who bring them are content to take the price, or prefer to take the price of them in goods?-They often take the price in goods, because they want them, but at the same time that is quite optional with themselves.
12,931. Are there not two prices for these things, whether they are paid in goods or cash?-Some parties have two prices, but we have not. We have only one price. We often prefer to pay the people in cash when they really want goods, because it saves a great deal of trouble in settling with them, and then they buy goods again.
12,932. Do you find that your cash transactions for goods are generally greater at one season of the year than at another?-Yes, very much greater. Our busy season for cash commences when the landlords and fishcurers commence to pay the men for their season's fishing, and we continue to drive a large trade of that description until April.
12,933. Do you then find the men beginning to ask for credit more frequently?-Yes.
12,934. Do you think it would be better for the trade generally, as well as for the men, if they were paid more frequently, and the settlements were not so distant?-It would certainly be better for us if they were paid more frequently, because then we would be paid more frequently also.
12,935. Do you think it would be better for the men too, and that they would make a better bargain with their money, or do you think it is just as well that the money should be kept for them?-I consider that the money is kept up a great deal too long. For instance, if the fish-curers paid for the fish at the end of the fishing season, that is, on 1st September, that might serve the men very well; but as it is with some parties, it is the 1st of April or the end of March before they are paid.
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12,936. Are the men sometimes in difficulties with regard to their supplies, in consequence of that?-No; because if they have anything to get, they can obtain supplies from the stores of the fish-merchants. They can get anything they like from them in goods. Perhaps that is the reason why the settlement is sometimes so long delayed, because it gives the men the chance of running a larger account than they would otherwise do and then they have less cash to get.
12,937. Have you any ground for that statement other than from mere inference?-No. There is one thing I may mention in connection with the fishing, that when the men sell their fish green, the drying of them must be paid for to other parties; but suppose the men dried the fish themselves, there are often windy days, when they cannot be at the fishing, and then they work at the drying of their own fish when they would have been doing nothing if they had been on-shore. In that way they can dry their fish for themselves very much cheaper than the fish-curer can dry them.
12,938. But can they do it as well? Do you think the fish cured by a fisherman himself command as good a market as those cured on a large scale by a curer?-We have had very little experience in that matter, because we don't buy fish in that way.
12,939. Do you cure any fish at all?-Yes; we cure the fish which we buy in the winter time wet.
12,940. How many fish do you sell in the course of a year?-From 10 to 20 tons.
12,941. Do you sell these at what is called the current price?- There is a current price for the ling fishing, according to which the fishermen are paid, and we try to get the most out of the fish that we can.
12,942. Do you generally get above or below what is called the current price in Shetland?-I don't know, because merchants, as a rule, don't care about saying much about what they have got for their fish.
12,943. Are you not consulted by other curers about fixing the current price?-No; we just act for ourselves.
12,944. Do you get a lower price for winter fish than is given for summer fish?-Yes, as a rule, we get less for them.
12,945. Your father is present to-day, but he prefers that you should be examined, as he is not in very good health?-Yes.
*Mr. Henderson afterwards furnished the following statement:-
LIST of OATMEAL invoiced to and sold by Gavin Henderson, Dunrossness, in 1870. Date of Invoice. 1870. a March 11. 24 Bolls Oatmeal, sold by him at 16s. 6d b " 18. 24 " " 17s. 0d c April 15. 8 " " 18s. 0d d May 13. 6 " " 18s. 0d e " 13. 14 " " 18s. 0d f June 3. 20. " " 19s. 0d g 24. 8 " " 19s. 6d h July 26. 16 " " 21s. 0d i Aug. 10. 2 " " 22s. 0d j Sept. 30. 2 " " 19s. 6d k Nov. 4. 2 " " 19s. 0d. l 126 Bolls
a …£19 16 0 b … 20 8 0 c … 7 4 0 d … 5 8 0 e … 12 12 0 f … 19 0 0 g … 7 16 0 h … 16 16 0 i … 2 4 0 j … 1 19 0 k … 1 18 0 l £115 1 0 Average price sold at per Boll, 18s. 3d, as nearly as has been ascertained.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, THOMAS TULLOCH, examined.
12,946. You are a fish-curer and merchant at Lebidden?-Yes.
12,947. Do you employ a number of boats' crews for fishing in summer?-Yes. I think I had about 20 altogether last year.
12,948. Are the men you employ chiefly tenants on the Simbister estate?-No; they are on the Sandlodge part of the Sumburgh estate.
12,949. Are they in any way restricted as to the person to whom they are to sell their fish?-No.
12,950. Do you also buy fish in winter from any men who choose to sell them to you?-Yes.
12,951. Have you bought any from tenants on the Quendale estate?-No, not from Quendale tenants.
12,952. Have you bought any fish in winter from the Sumburgh tenants in Dunrossness?-No.
12,953. Do you settle with your fishermen annually in the winter, in the same way as other merchants do?-Yes; once at year.
12,954. Have you a shop at which they run accounts?-Yes.
12,955. I suppose they generally incur an account in the course of the year, which runs away with part of their earnings?-Yes.
12,956. And you set the one against the other?-Yes.
12,957. Are your boats hired out to the men?-In some cases they are, but in other cases they are their own boats.
12,958. What is the amount of the boat hire they pay?-£2 for the summer.
12,959. Do you hire out lines and hooks also?-Very seldom.
12,960. Do you sometimes make an arrangement by which the men buy a boat and pay for it by instalments?-Yes. It will take about five years to pay it up.
12,961. Is that arrangement made at the beginning of the transaction, or do you just sell the boat, and leave the men to pay it up as they are able?-It is an arrangement which is entered into at the beginning. They have to pay so much every year,-say £1 a year from every man.
12,962. Do you find that the men generally manage to settle up for their boats within the five years?-Yes, about that time.
12,963. How long does at boat last?-Some of them last longer than others, but I should say that on an average they last about fifteen or sixteen years.
12,964. Do you pay the same rate for the fish that are caught by men who own a boat and by those who hire one?-The same.
12,965. Is the price which you pay for your fish generally a higher one than the current price?-Generally it is a little higher.
12,966. What is the reason for that?-I don't know. We like to get the services of the men, if possible.
12,967. I understand the current price last year was 8s. for ling?-I don't think it was so much.
12,968. What did you pay?-I paid 8s. 3d. in 1870, and 8s. 9d. in 1871.
12,969. Do you think the current price was less than 8s.?-I think so, but I am not quite certain.
12,970. Are you obliged to give a higher price in consequence of competition among fish-curers in your neighbourhood?-No.
12,971. Then why do you do it?-We just want to satisfy the men.
12,972. Do the men in your district require a higher price than their neighbours in order to be satisfied?-Yes; they want a higher price, and it has been paid for some years back.
12,973. Can you account for that in any way?-No. I once got into the way of giving a little more than the currency, and the men have always looked for it since.
12,974. Were not the men in your district, until lately, bound to fish for a tacksman, Robert Mouat?-Not in our district. The men who fished for him lived at some distance from me.
12,975. Have you settled this year?-Yes.
12,976. What would be about the average amount of cash which each man had to receive at settlement?-I should say about £4.
12,977. Would the amount of his earning from the fishing be £12 or £15 on an average?-Not so much. It might be about £8 or £9.
12,978. Has the fishing in your neighbourhood been less successful this year than in other parts of Shetland?-It has been less successful for some time back, but last year it has done very well; I should suppose about an average.
12,979. Some of your men, I suppose, would have nothing to take at settlement?-Yes, some had nothing.
12,980. They had exhausted the amount of their earnings by advances in shop goods?-Yes, and in money advances too. The advances were not all in shop goods.
12,981. Do they often ask for advances before the end of the season?-Often.
12,982. Do you think it would be an advantage if they were paid more frequently for their fish?-I don't think so. I think they would not get such high prices.
12,983. Do you mean that if the price were fixed at the beginning of the season, the merchant would be cautious about fixing a high price?-Yes.
12,984. But if the prices varied from time to time, according to the state of the market, would the men not be better to have the money in their own hands, and then they would have a chance of a variable price?-In that case they would; but some people don't know how [Page 322] to take care of their money when they get it. They don't know how to lay it out.
12,985. If they had money in their own hands, would they not learn to take care of it?-I don't know. I think it would be rather a difficult matter to learn some of them.
12,986. What other fish-curers are there in your neighbourhood?- Mr. Smith. There is no other merchant in the immediate neighbourhood. Mr. Harrison has also some curing done there.
12,987. Has he a station there?-Yes; it is about mile from my place.
12,988. How far is Mr. Smith from you?-He is next door.
12,989. Is there not a good deal of competition between you three?-Not much.
12,990. Are you not all anxious to get a larger number of boats to fish for you?-Of course.
12,991. Has not that some effect upon the price which you offer for the fishing?-Perhaps it has a little.
12,992. Do you think if you were the only curer there, you would be able to get your men to give you their fish for 8s.?-Perhaps I might, if they could get no other body to take them, and who would give them more.
12,993. Have you always given the same price as Mr. Smith, or is there sometimes a difference between you?-There never is any difference.
12,994. How long have you been in business there?-For fifteen years.
12,995. How long has he been there?-I think about sixteen or seventeen years.
12,996. Do his men sometimes shift from him to you, or the other way?-Yes, sometimes.
12,997. Is there any particular reason for that?-I cannot say; I suppose it is just their fancy.
12,998. Is a man more likely to shift when he is in your debt, or when he is out of it?-When he is out of it.
12,999. When he is in your debt, does he like to continue to fish for you until his debt is paid off?-Sometimes he does.
13,000. Have you any arrangement with Mr. Smith by which, when a man changes from one place to the other, the new employer takes in hand the debt which the man is due to his former employer; or becomes responsible for it?-There is no arrangement of that kind between us.
13,001. Have you sometimes done that?-I believe I have done it.
13,002. Have you undertaken a debt due to Mr. Smith?-Yes, when it was not very much.
13,003. And you have got it from the man at the end of the season, or as soon as he was able to pay it, and handed it over to Mr. Smith?-Yes; he either got it, or it was set down in his book.
13,004. How often may that have happened?-Not very often.
13,005. Has it been done lately?-Yes.
13,006. I suppose it is not an unusual thing in the fishing trade for that to be done?-It is not unusual. Of course, the curer that the man leaves expects him to pay his debt when he does leave.
13,007. Are you responsible to any landlords for the rents of their tenants?-No.
13,008. Do you, in point of fact, sometimes pay the fishermen's rents for them?-Yes, to Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh.
13,009. That is to say, the fishermen, instead of getting the money from you, have the amount of their rent entered in their accounts, and you pay the whole in a cheque to Mr. Bruce?-Yes; but in some cases I give the money to the men.
13,010. How do you pay it to the landlord when it is paid by you to him?-I just give Mr. Bruce a cheque for the whole when it is collected together.
13,011. How many men's rents may you have paid in that way last year?-I think about six. I gave money to the others, and they handed it to Mr. Bruce themselves.
13,012. Is there any arrangement with the landlord that you should do that?-None.
13,013. Does he sometimes apply to you for the rents of particular men?-No.
13,014. Do you sometimes buy cattle?-No.
13,015. Do you buy eggs?-Yes.
13,016. Do you pay for them in goods?-Yes.
13,017. Have you two prices for them, as they are paid in goods or in cash?-No. If the people did want cash I would not like to give them so much in cash as in goods, because it is cash that I look for in return.
13,018. But I suppose you are never asked for cash payment for eggs?-Very seldom.
13,019. What is the price of meal at your shop just now?-I think Scotch meal is about 5s. a quarter, or 20s. a boll.
13,020. What was it in the summer of 1870?-I don't remember.
13,021. What was it last summer?-I think it was about 5s. or 6s. up or down, according to the market.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, JAMES SMITH, examined.
13,022. You are a merchant and fish-curer at Hill Cottage, Sandwick?-I am.
13,023. Your shop is near that of Mr. Tulloch?-Yes, next door.
13,024. You have heard his evidence?-Yes.
13,025. Do you conduct your business in the same way?-The very same.
13,026. How many boats do you employ?-I had about twenty last summer.
13,027. What did you pay for you fish then?-8s. 9d., and I understand the current price of the country has been 8s.
13,028. Have you paid 9d. more than the currency?-Yes, on ling.
13,029. Did you pay as much higher a price for cod and tusk?- No. We paid 7s. for cod and tusk, and I understand the current price of the country has been 6s. 6d. We paid 4s. 3d. for saith, and I understand the current price has been 4s.
13,030. Do you generally pay as much above the current price as you have done last year?-No, not as general thing.
13,031. Can you assign any reason for your price this year being so much higher?-No, I cannot assign any particular reason.
13,032. Is it not in order that you may get as many fishermen as you require?-The great reason is to try to please the fishermen as far as possible; and in our quarter they are very bad to please.
13,033. Why do you want to please them?-To get them to fish for us. We are anxious to have as many fishermen as possible. There is one thing which enables Mr. Tulloch and I to pay somewhat higher prices than the currency; which is, that our curing places are very near to ourselves, and we can always see the curing carried on, and can cure cheaper.
13,034. Do any of the fishermen in your district cure for themselves?-Yes.
13,035. Do you buy from them?-Sometimes. They sell to us if they choose.
13,036. Do you think the fish which they cure are as good as yours?-Not unless they have a factor. When they cure them by their own hands they are never so good.
13,037. What do you mean by them having a factor?-A man set over the fish to look after the curing of them, the same as I have.
13,038. Do the fishermen who cure for themselves have a factor?-Yes; the men at our place have a man to whom they pay so much per ton per every ton of dried fish which are produced.
13,039. In that case, where the fishermen agree to employ a factor, do you think the curing is as well done as it is by you?-It is, when they get an experienced man for the purpose.
[Page 323]
13,040. In that case do the men club together in order to buy implements, vats, and other things for curing?-Yes.
13,041. It is it sort of co-operative system?-Yes.
13,042. Do you do anything in hosiery?-No.
13,043. Do you buy eggs, and pay for them in goods?-Yes.
13,044. Are the prices of the goods in your shop the same as in Mr. Tulloch's?-They are generally the same.
13,045. What is the price of meal at present?-Scotch oatmeal is 20s. a boll, or 5s. a quarter; Shetland meal is only 3s. or 3s. 6d.
13,046. Is the Shetland oatmeal of much inferior quality?-As a general thing, it is much inferior. There is not much of it sold. The people generally use their own meal, and it is much to be regretted that they require a great deal more than what they can grow.
13,047. Do you think you could manage to pay your people, without much inconvenience, as the fish are landed?-I think I might manage that, but I don't think it would be for the public good. In the first place, the fishermen would not be able to get the fishing articles and the quantity of meal they require before the fishing commenced, because they would not have money to pay for them. Another reason is, that if they had the money they don't very well know how to manage it, and it would be spent before rent time came. Then, if they had no money, the landlord would have to go and take their corn or their cattle and roup them in order to get his rent, and the people would be losers.
13,048. Do you think one advantage of the present system is, that it carries the men through a bad year?-Yes. Last year we had a very good fishing, but the majority of them had their rents to get. For as few fishermen as I have, I had to advance them in order to help them to pay their rents.
13,049. Do you sometimes pay their rents for them?-I do so, as a general thing. It is expected that the fish-merchant will not see them at a loss; but, of course, if a ready-money system was introduced, they could not look to the fish-merchant for any help.
13,050. Why should they not look to him then?-If I only had the men engaged from voyage to voyage, or from week to week, and did not have the advantage of knowing that they were to fish for me next year, it could not be expected that I would advance them £140 to help them in paying their rents for this year.
13,051. But perhaps they would not need it if they were in the habit of getting their money?-In my opinion, they would need it more than they do now.
13,052. Have not other people than fishermen sometimes to pay rents?-Yes.
13,053. And they manage to have it in hand when the rent day comes?-Yes; but these people, as a general rule, have bigger farms, and cattle and ponies that they sell, and that helps them on with their rents.
13,054. But there are rents to be paid by people who have small farms, or no farms at all; and if they manage to gather up for their rent day, might not the fishermen do so as well?-They might do so; but in our quarter-and I can only speak for it-the great majority of the people have enough to do when there is a good season, and when there is a bad one they are far short.
13,055. Then I suppose the reason which you are now assigning for keeping up the present system is rounded upon your opinion, that the people of Shetland are less careful and less sensible than people of the same class in other parts of Scotland?-I don't believe they are less sensible than the fishermen or men of the same class elsewhere. I believe there are as competent men in Shetland, as a general rule, as in any other part of Scotland; but the fishing is a very fluctuating piece of business, and I think that very often they could not manage to save up money for their rent if there was a cash system. Of course there are differences among them. There are some men in our quarter who are laying past money, while there are others who are overhead in debt, in spite of all that can be done for them.
13,056. I understand you have been frequently at Fair Isle?-I think it is about six or seven years since I was there last, but I was very often there before. I had a small vessel of my own, and I went to the Isle to barter goods with the people. I bartered them for cash, not for fish.
13,057. Did you go there every year for some time?-I went three or four times in some years, and I continued going for seven or eight years.
13,058. Did you go as a private speculation of your own?-Yes.
13,059. What kind of goods did you take?-Tea, sugar, tobacco and cottons.
13,060. Was there any particular reason for giving up that trade?- No; I was getting tired of it.
13,061. Did you find it a hazardous sort of thing?-It was very much so: I ran many a risk of losing my life. It was an open vessel, without a deck, that I went in, and in the winter time the coast there is very dangerous.
13,062. Was the market open at that time at Fair Isle?-Generally in the winter time it was.
13,063. Was it not open in the summer time also?-Not so much, because the man who had it in tack generally supplied the fishermen at that time with their stores and meal. I made one or two trips there with meal, because the people sent for me to bring it, as their master could not get their meal forwarded so quickly from Orkney as they required it.
13,064. Who was the tacksman then?-John Hughson from Orkney.
13,065. Have you been there since he ceased to be tacksman?- Never.
13,066. Was your trade with the Fair Isle people objected to by him?-He never objected to me.
13,067. Did he object to any one else?-Not to my knowledge.
13,068. Then you could trade with the people as much as you pleased?-Yes; there was no restriction whatever. I very often spoke with Mr. Hughson himself.
13,069. Did you stop at the time when Hughson ceased to be tacksman?-I was almost giving up the trade before he ceased to be tacksman. His time was not quite run out the last time I was there.
13,070. Who succeeded Mr. Hughson as tacksman?-Mr. John Bruce, jun., of Sumburgh.
13,071. You have not been there since he became tacksman?- Never as a trader. I was there once when a ship was wrecked on the Seil. I have made a mistake there: I have been once at the island trading since Mr. Bruce bought it, and I had full liberty from him to go.
13,072. Did you get express permission from him?-Yes.
13,073. When was that?-I don't remember; it may have been four or five years ago.
13,074. Why did you ask permission?-He wished me to go in with goods to the people, and I told him I did not like to go with freight there unless he would allow me to trade for myself; and then he gave me full liberty.
13,075. Was Mr. Bruce not sending a vessel of his own at that time?-He could not get a vessel to go. It is such a nasty coast for inexperienced men, that it is difficult to get men to venture there.
13,076. You agreed to go only on condition that you had the trade in your own hands?-Yes; and I had his freight in the meantime.
13,077. Did you understand at that time that you were not at liberty to trade with the Fair Isle people without Mr. Bruce's permission?-I did not understand anything about it. He only asked me to go with freight, and I asked him if I would be at liberty to trade with the people myself, and he said I would.
13,078. Did he not say that it was only for this special occasion that you were to have liberty?-He did not.
[Page 324]
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, 1872 JOHN HALCROW, examined.
13,079. You are a fisherman at Levenwick?-I am.
13,080. On whose property is your ground?-On that of Mr. Bruce of Simbister.
13,081. Was that ground formerly under tack to Robert Mouat?- Yes. His tack expired about a year ago; but before that, he had become bankrupt.
13,082. Were you bound to fish for him?-Yes.
13,083. Were you also obliged to deal at his shop?-No. I had a little money of my own, and I went to any merchant that I thought I could get the best bargain from.
13,084. Did you go to Mouat for a good bargain?-No.
13,085. Why?-Because he never had good bargains. The quality of his articles was not good, and the price was dearer than that of any merchant in the neighbourhood.
13,086. Were many men in the habit of dealing with him?-Mr. Bruce's tenantry both in Channerwick and Levenwick were bound to fish for him.
13,087. But did they deal with him for shop goods and provisions?-Yes, almost all of them dealt with him.
13,088. Why?-Because they were bound to do it.
13,089. Were they bound to deal with him for shop goods?-The fishermen were. They were required to go to him with all their produce, meal, ponies, and eggs, as well as with their fish.
13,090. But they were not bound to buy their goods from him?- No; but they had to do so, because he received all their produce, and they could not go anywhere else. They had no money.
13,091. Would he not give them money for their produce?-Yes, for such as cattle he would. But it was very few of them who had any money to get from him.
13,092. Why?-Because they were bound to fish for him, and he received all their fish.
13,093. But if he received all their fish he would have to pay them money for them?-It was very hard to get it from him.
13,094. Did he prefer to give them the price in goods?-Yes, if they would take it.
13,095. And did they take it in goods?-Not very much.
13,096. Why?-Because they were not very good.
13,097. Then they would have money to get, at the end of the year if they did not take very much in goods?-Yes.
13,098. Did they get the money at the end of the year?-No. He said he did not have it to give them.
13,099. Then they did not get their money at all?-In some cases they got it.
13,100. But some of them did not get it?-Yes.
13,101. And some of them did not get goods either?-Yes; they would not take his goods.
13,102. Then did they go without either money or goods?-Yes.
13,103. Was that often?-I have had to do it myself.
13,104. When was that?-In 1870. He said he had no money to give me.
13,105. Was that at settlement?-Yes. He had the tack for two years more at that time, and he gave me a receipt for the rent of 1871. Then he failed; and I had to pay my rent for 1871 over again to Mr William Irvine.
13,106. Why did you give Mouat your rent for 1871 nearly two years before it was due?-Because I thought he was to have the tack for two years more.
13,107. But it was your own fault, was it not that you had to pay it twice?-I don't know about that.
13,108. Could you not have got the money from Mouat?-No. I would have had to apply to the civil law to get it.
13,109. You could have got the value of it in goods from him?- Yes. I could have got it in goods; but they were of an inferior quality, and I did not want to take them. [The witness produced a receipt for the rent of 1871 from Mr. William Irvine, and also receipt from Mouat in the following terms: '£5 MOUL, 13
13,110. Is that Mouat's signature?-Yes; it is what I got from him.
13,111. Did you see him write it?-I did.
13,112. Do you know any other men who paid rent to Mouat in the same way?-I don't know of any others who paid him in that particular way, but I know some men who had money in his hands.
13,113. Was John Mouat one of them?-Yes. He had money in Robert Mouat's hands by the fishing.
13,114. Was he not able to get his money at the settlement of 1870?-No. I know that he could not get it.
13,115. Do you know anything about that except that he could not get it?-No.
13,116. You have another document in your hands: what is it?-It is a copy of our account from Mr. Smith for the fishing.
13,117. Do you get a copy of your accounts from Mr. Smith at every settlement?-Yes. I have only settled with him one year.
13,118. This is an account for two men; and it shows the prices you got in 1871,-ling 8s. 9d., cod 7s., tusk 7s., and saith 4s. 3d.?-Yes.
13,119. Did you get all that in cash?-Yes, except what I had received in cash before. I had received a little cash in the course of the summer. I had got no advances from him in goods, because his shop was so far from where I lived.
13,120. Why are the two men's accounts in the same slip of paper?-Because there are five of us who go in one boat; and three men agreed to fish for Mr. John Robertson, jun. and two for Mr. James Smith.
13,121. Whose boat was it?-James Gilbertson was the skipper; and the boat belonged to the men.
13,122. Is it a usual arrangement, that part of the crew fish to one merchant and part to another?-No.
13,123. How did it happen in this case?-Because we wanted our liberty. We did not want to agree to fish for Mr. John Robertson.
13,124. Would you not have been at liberty if you had fished for Mr. Robertson?-Our reason for not fishing for him was because Robert Mouat called all his tenants to the Moul, and ordered them to agree to fish for Mr. John Robertson for him two rising years.
13,125. Was Mr. John Robertson Mouat's trustee in his sequestration?-Yes.
13,126. Some of you declined to fish for him, and others engaged to fish?-Yes.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, GILBERT IRVINE, examined.
13,127. Are you shopkeeper at Grutness to Mr. John Bruce, jun.?-I am.
13,128. Do you also act as factor on the estate?-I don't know that I could be called a factor exactly. I just do things about the estate as Mr. Bruce wishes me.
13,129. But you are sometimes employed as, a factor or overseer going about the estate?-Yes, at times.
13,130. Are you aware that the tenants on the Sumburgh estate in Dunrossness parish are under tack to Mr. John Bruce, jun., and are bound to deliver their fish to him?-It is understood that they are to do so, but some of them don't do it. There are some of them who have not fished for Mr. Bruce, and are not are very doing so at the present time; but these are very few. The general understanding is, that they are to deliver their fish to him.
13,131. How long have you been at Grutness?-About twenty-three or twenty-four years.
13,132. I believe it was about 1860 that Mr Bruce took the tack?- Yes.
13,133. How were you employed at Grutness before [Page 325] then?-I was there for Messrs. Hay & Co. They had the shop there formerly, and some of the men belonging to that estate were employed by them as fishermen.
13,134. Do you remember intimation being made to the tenants about 1860 that they were expected to fish for Mr. Bruce?-Yes. I think there was some person sent round with a letter to that effect, but I did not see the letter.
13,135. However, you know that such an intimation was made?-I understood so.
13,136 Do you remember, a good many years ago, of one James Brown at Toab selling some fish to Robert Leslie?-I don't remember about that at present.
13,137. Do you remember of James Brown's farm being advertised to be let at the shop, a ticket being put up there?-I don't remember about that.
13,138. May it have happened, although you do not remember?- It is possible it may have happened; but I don't remember anything about it at the present moment.
13,139. Can you say that such a thing did not happen twelve years ago?-I think James Brown had not got a farm twelve years ago.
13,140. Perhaps it was his father?-I never knew his father. I think his father was dead before James Brown came to the parish.
13,141. Do you remember any case of a farm being advertised because the tenant had sold his fish, or attempted to sell them, to another merchant?-I do not remember any case of a farm being advertised for man selling fish. The tenants have been reproved for doing so; but I cannot remember of any farm being advertised for that.
13,142. Have you spoken to them about doing such things?-Very likely I have.
13,143. Do you know one Thomas Aitken?-Yes.
13,144 Do you know whether he had to sign a paper agreeing to fish for Mr. Bruce so long as he lived on the ground?-I did not see the paper.
13,145. It was not through you that that was done?-No.
13,146. Was there any special arrangement with him about fishing?-I don't remember anything about it. If there was such an arrangement, it would be with Mr. Bruce.
13,147. You say you have sometimes reproved the tenants for selling their fish to others?-Yes. There have been some seasons when, from the end of October until May, they delivered none at all, or not more than perhaps one cwt. or so. I believe most of them have not delivered more than that during the whole time.
13,148. But that was their winter fishing?-Yes.
13,149. Have you said to them that they ought to deliver some of their winter fish to you?-I told them, even last year, that if the proprietor was aware that they were selling all their fish to other merchants, he would be offended at them, or something to that effect.
13,150. Had that any effect?-Not much.
13,151. They did not bring their winter fish to you?-No.
13,152. Would it be as convenient for them to bring their winter fish to you as to another?-Mr. Bruce had a station at the beach head, and a factor, who was paid all the season round, for taking fish, and salt and everything ready for them, but they would not bring them to him.
13,153. Where did they go with them?-I don't know, I suppose to the merchants round about.
13,154. Did they go to Messrs. Hay & Co., or to Quendale?-I could not say where they went.
13,155. Why did they not choose to come to you?-I don't know. It is a general practice in Shetland, that tenants fishing for landlords try to do as much trade with other merchants as they can.
13,156. What has been their reason for that practice?-I think the fact that they fish for their landlords has created a kind of feeling that they are rather in bondage.
13,157. And they like to have their liberty in winter?-I think their feeling is, that they don't like the proprietor to know all their transactions. That has been a practice in Shetland for a long time, both in the north and the south.
13,158. Have you had occasion to reprove the tenants for carrying off their fish or smuggling them to other merchants in summer?-I think I have done so once or twice. I remember on one occasion seeing a boat coming from the sea to land their fish. I counted the fish they had in the boat; I don't recollect the number, but they were not all brought to the store. I made inquiry about that, and found that some of the fish had been taken to other merchants; but I never told Mr. Bruce about it.
13,159. Your settlements at Grutness are made every year?-Yes, once a year.
13,160. What is the usual period at which the settlements are completed?-In some years Mr. Bruce has begun towards the end of January; but last year, on account of him being out of the way, and me not having the accounts ready, the settlement went on as late as April.
13,161. Are the balances of these settlements always paid in cash?-Yes; they are readily paid. Mr. Bruce always did that.
13,162. Do you sometimes make advances in money to the men in the course of the summer?-I do not make these advances. Mr. Bruce sometimes does so and when at settlement some of them are in debt, he gives them money in advance. It very seldom happens that a man, even when he is in debt at settlement, will not ask him for some shillings, or for £2 or £3, and he always gives it to them, although they have no money to get, but have been in his debt for some time.
13,163. Do the men run accounts at your shop at Grutness as they do with other merchants, for the purpose of supplying their families and of getting supplies for the fishing?-Yes; what they get is chiefly meal and hooks, and things of that kind. We do not do much in dry goods.
13,164. Except outfits for the fishermen?-Yes, except what we cannot avoid giving them.
13,165. At what time of the year are your transactions with the fishermen largest?-In summer. While the fishing is going on, our place is very busy.
13,166. Is that the season when the meal of the fishermen themselves is exhausted?-Yes. I have seen in bad years, when there was a poor crop in Shetland, that they had to get meal supplied to them so early as February; but for 2 or 3 years back the crops have been better, and most of the men have carried on till April or May without requiring any advances of that kind.
13,167. Then your principal sales of meal are in the summer time?-Yes. We seldom do anything in it after the crop has been got in, except perhaps in the case of a person who has had a very poor crop, or no crop at all, and then we may give him some.
13,168. The quantity of meal which each man gets is entered in the ledger account in your book at the time that he gets it?-Yes; we just keep one ledger account. Sometimes the meal is marked on slips of paper or in a little book when I am out of the way, but I try to enter all these things in the ledger daily.
13,169. But they are all entered in the ledger account, although there may be some little delay in entering them?-Yes; every person has all his dealings entered in one account.
13,170. I understand, from what I saw in the books last night, and from what you mentioned to me, that you don't fix the price of the meal when it is given out?-No. I don't know yet the current price of bear meal for this year.
13,171. At first you only enter the quantity that is given out?- Yes.
13,172. And the price of the meal is fixed at settlement?-Yes, or some time before it, in order that I may get the account extended and added up.
13,173. In what way is the price of the meal fixed for the year?-It is generally taken on an average. In 1870, for instance, which is the last year for which there has been a settlement, meal was pretty low in [Page 326] the spring, varying from 18s. to 19s. per boll, and it rose during the season until it was somewhere about £1, if not above it. These changes frequently take place in the markets; and in fixing the price for a particular year, we generally make an average of the prices from first to last. If we were not to do that, then it might chance that the poorest people might get the whole of their meal at the dearest price, or when the price of meal was highest; but the way in which we take it makes it more equal over all.
13,174. Do you take the average according to the whole quantity of meal which you have sold?-Yes. We add up the total amount of meal sold, and the prices per boll which the meal has cost. I don't do that, but I believe that is the way in which it is done. It is generally done by Mr. Bruce himself, but I have a general understanding about it. For instance, if 20 bolls cost a certain figure, and 30 bolls cost another figure, if we add the amounts together, and take the average of the whole, we know what to sell it for. That is the way in which I would do it, and I believe it is the way in which it is done.
13,175. You first strike the average of the wholesale price, and then you allow a certain amount of profit upon that?-Yes. We include the expense of bringing it here, and then we make an average price accordingly.
13,176. Do some of the fishermen who deal at your shop have pass-books?-Very few; but I think a great many of them keep accounts themselves. I never saw many men settling who did not know what quantity of meal they had had.
13,177. Have you sometimes objected to the trouble of keeping pass-books for the men?-I don't recollect doing that, but I might have said that it was vexatious. I think there were two or three cases in which I was anxious that the people should have pass-books, and I began them with them. They came with them for a certain time, but then they would come without the book, and that confused me altogether. However, I never was very much asked to keep pass-books for them, and the fact is that it would have been almost out of my power to have attended to them. I am frequently out of the shop, and there are days when the men are coming ashore in large numbers, on which we could scarcely have time to mark down the meal.
13,178. Have you a fixed day in the week for giving out meal?- We have had a fixed day for some years back. Formerly we had no particular day, but we could not get them to understand the quantity of meal that was to be disposed of; and as there are some people to whom we only allow a certain quantity of meal per week, we have found it better to fix a particular day on which they are to come for it. People who have credit, or who have money in Mr. Bruce's hands, can come any day and get what they please, so that there are scarcely any days in the week when some is not given out; but the bulk is given out on a particular day, generally on a Friday.
13,179. You said just now that certain people had to be restricted to a given quantity of meal: are these people who are in debt?- Yes, and people who have been in debt. If it had not been for that restriction, there are some people on the estate who were in debt not long ago, and who would still have been in debt.
13,180. I thought it was because they were in debt that you restricted them?-No; we restricted some because they might have got into debt. We just gave them an allowance sufficient to support them through the week; but if we had given them more, or given them what they wanted, they would have taken double the quantity. These, however, are only a few individuals; in general the people are much more careful.
13,181. When you put parties on an allowance in that way, are they generally people who have had a balance against them at settlement the year before?-Generally they are. Some of them may have been in debt £8 or £10, and some as high as £20, and it is these people we put on an allowance in order to try to keep them going.
13,182. Do people who have no balance against them, and who can get an unlimited supply of meal, come to you on Fridays along with the rest?-Sometimes, and sometimes not; they just come as they choose.
13,183. Do they frequently not come to you at all for meal?- There are few of them who don't come for meal; but the greater part of the men at Dunrossness are generally in good circumstances, and have the command of money, and they generally buy their meal in Lerwick, or where they can get it cheapest.
13,184. In looking at your books last night, of course I did not find the prices for meal entered for the year 1871?-No.
13,185. But I saw that a lispund of bear meal in 1870 was charged at 4s. 6d.?-I think the lispunds were 4s. 4d., and the quarter bolls 4s. 6d.
13,186. I noticed also that you sometimes charged what you call a lispund at a different price?-Yes; when we break a boll and sell it in quarters, we generally call it a lispund. Sometimes two or three men may get a boll and divide it among themselves, and it is generally charged to them as lispunds. That accounts for the lispund sometimes being charged at one price and sometimes at another.
13,187. When you do actually weigh out a quarter boll, you charge it at 4s. 6d.?-We seldom weigh that out. They take the boll and divide it among themselves; we seldom weigh it.
13,188. When the prices are not entered until the end of the season, how do you know whether to charge for a quarter boll or for a lispund, when you have put it in your book in the first instance as a lispund in both cases?-I had slips of paper or a little pass-book, and when we gave the meal out we had a line for the boll weight and a line for the lispund.
13,189. What is done with the lines?-We have some of them yet.
13,190. Do you file them?-No. We rule the small pass-book, and have a place in which we enter the lines, so many for lispunds, so many for bolls, and so many for quarter bolls, or whatever it may be.
13,191. Do you call that book the weighing-book?-Yes. It is generally only part of the meal that is entered there.
13,192. When you are putting in the prices at the end of the season do you go over all the entries in that book, and all the entries in the ledger account as well?-There is a great deal of the meal that we never keep any slips for, but just enter it direct into the ledger and we know which of these people are getting lispunds, and which are getting quarter bolls.
13,193. How do you know that?-At the beginning of the season we know quite well the people we are giving the meal to regularly, and those who just get it as they come.
13,194. Are there certain people who always get it in lispunds, and others who always get it in quarter bolls?-Yes.
13,195. And you know which is which?-Yes, because the people who get it regularly generally get it in lispunds; and sometimes if we give them a boll or half a boll, we mark it in the ledger at once.
13,196. Then you say that bear meal in 1870 was charged at 4s. 4d. per lispund, and 4s. 6d. per quarter boll?-I think so.
13,197. And a lispund of oatmeal in 1870 was 5s. 6d.?-I think it was 22s. per boll, or 11s. 6d. per half boll, but I cannot say exactly. I think the price per lispund was 5s. 4d.
13,198. Then the entry which I noted of half a lispund of oatmeal in 1870-2s. 9d., would be for one half of a quarter boll?-I would suppose so; but I could not be sure about that unless I saw the entry.
13,199. But although you saw the entry, that would not help you?-It would not, but I could not say anything positive about that.
13,200. I received this piece of half-bleached cotton from you [showing], which you sell at 41/2d. a yard?-Yes.
13,201. Also this piece [showing], which you sell at 8d.?-Yes.
[Page 327]
13,202. And this piece of shirting [showing], which you sell at 1s.?-Yes.
13,203. These were all got from J. & W. Campbell, Glasgow?- Yes.
13,204. You sell your tobacco at 4d. per oz.?-Yes. We have two kinds, both sold at 4d. or 15d. per quarter lb.
13,205. Is that the price, whether it is entered in the account or sold for cash?-We very seldom sell for cash, but the price is the same in both cases.
13,206. Do you not take cash in the shop at all?-Yes, we take it if we get it; but we never have the chance of getting much of it. We get a few shillings occasionally. I don't think we get so much cash in the course of the year as will pay for postages.
13,207. That shows that your business is entirely for the supply of your own fishermen?-Entirely; and Mr. Bruce was never inclined to increase the trade as a shop trade. It is only to accommodate the fishermen that the things are kept.
13,208. That is to say, it is to accommodate those who do not have money with which to go elsewhere?-Yes. The men, on coming ashore, do not have time to go for lines and supplies to some other place; but it would be better for Mr. Bruce and the whole concern if there was no store there at all.
13,209. Do you mean to say that there is no profit on goods?- There is a profit on the goods, but the shop cannot pay the people that have to attend to it.
13,210. Are you paid by salary for your attention to the shop, or have you an interest in the sale of the goods?-I have no interest in the sale of the goods at all.
13,211. You sell your 2-lb. lines for 2s. 2d.?-Yes.
13,212. You sell your best sugar for 6d.?-Yes. During the summer, until the end of the season, it was 61/2d.: but now they get sugar of the same kind for 6d.
13,213. You purchase it from Greenock-two cwt. at a time?-I cannot exactly say where the last sugar came from. We had an agent in Glasgow to buy it from Greenock, and I understand he did so.
13,214. I observed an entry in December 1871-1 lb. sugar, 6d.: was that the best?-Yes. That was part of the last sugar we broke up.
13,215. That sugar was invoiced to you on 14th September 1871?-I think so; but the sugar had been higher in the course of the year.
13,216. What was the price at which sugar sold in your shop in 1870?-I think it was 61/2d., because the price of sugar was higher then. We had the finest sugar in 1870 as high as 7d., but never above that.
13,217. Do you keep only one kind of sugar?-No, we have more than one kind. It is not always alike. We have two different kinds of sugar.
13,218. I show you an invoice dated 12th May 1870,1 cask sugar2 1 25182 1 7at 42s. 6d.£4, 18s. 4d.Grutness shop debtor, £6, 1s. 41/4d.
At what price did you sell that sugar per lb.?-I think it was 61/2d.
13,219. What would be the freight of it from Greenock to here?-I could not say. I think Mr. Bruce keeps the freight accounts.
13,220. The sum of £6, 1s. 41/4d. is entered against the shop: is that the sum you were to realize by the sale of that sugar?-Yes.
13,221. Or does it merely indicate the price and the expenses, leaving you to fix the selling price yourself?-No; I think that is what was expected to be realized, and all expenses and inlake have to come off that. I think that is the net sum that must be realized after expenses and inlake.
13,222. Was there no more than that realized from the sugar contained in that invoice?-I could not say. I have not tried that particularly.
13,223. You have shown me two invoices of meal, one August 12th, and the other August 23d, 1870, from Jonathan Mess; one for 10 bolls oatmeal at 19s., and the other for 15 bolls at 17s. 9d.: I suppose the difference in price between these two is to be accounted for by the variation in the market price at that time?- Yes.
13,224. Was that meal which you got in August the dearest purchase of the year?-I don't remember.
[Produces invoices, showing the following purchases in1870:-April 1, 25 bolls of oatmeal at 15s." 1, 1 " " " 15s." 22, 20 " " " 15s. 6d.June 3, 40 " " " 16s. 3d." 14, 60 " " " 16s. 3d.Aug. 12, 10 " " " 19s." 23, 15 " " " 17s. 9d.
Those are the prices at Aberdeen, exclusive of the cost for bags, which were charged separately.]
13,225. Was that the whole supply of meal for 1870?-Yes.
13,226. Had you a stock in hand at the beginning of the year?- None.
13,227. I think you said before that you had very few sales before April?-Yes; we do very little in meal before the fishing begins.
13,228. What quality of oatmeal is contained in these invoices?- It is meal ground entirely from Scotch home-grown oats. A great part of the meal that comes to this country is grown from foreign oats, and is not nearly so good, and it can be bought far cheaper.
13,229. Was the oatmeal of the best quality which you sold for 5s. 4d. per lispund, or 5s. 6d. per quarter boll?-Yes.
13,230. Do you know anything about the freights from Aberdeen?-I think Mr. Bruce will be better able to speak to that than I can.
13,231. You get your tobacco from Mr. Henry Christie, Edinburgh?-Yes.
13,232. Have you charge of the despatch of goods to Fair Isle when they are required?-Yes. When the vessel is going I supply the man's orders if the things are in Mr. Bruce's shop. At times we have to buy trifling things at other shops to supply the people with.
13,233. I noticed in your Fair Isle order-book an entry of 2 cwt. soap ordered from Hedly & Co., Newcastle, on 30th August 1871: at what price would that be retailed in Fair Isle?-At 6d. per lb.
13,234. Have you the invoice price of that?-No, not in 1871: but it was very similar to the price in 1870. We generally got the finest extra pale brown soap. [Produces invoice of 18th August 1870, showing the price of soap at that time to be 28s. per cwt.]
13,235. In the same order-book there is an entry of 4 cwt. soft sugar, ordered on 30th August 1871 for Fair Isle: at what rate would that be sold there?-If it is the same quality as ours, it would very likely be sold at 7d.; it would be at least a halfpenny dearer in Fair Isle, to cover the expense of freight.
13,236. But you don't know what was the quality of sugar that you sent to Fair Isle in August 1871?-No; we never break up the casks, but the quality ordered would be the same as the common brown which we order for ourselves.