15,064. Does it not depend entirely upon the landlord's efficiency as a man of business, whether the condition is a beneficial one for the tenants or not?-Yes. I think Mr. Bruce, junior, Mr. Urnphray, and I are the only proprietors in the country who carry on the fishing to any extent.
15,065. Do you think it would be necessary to increase the rents of the tenants if they were not under that obligation to fish for you?- I certainly should increase their rents in Dunrossness if they were not under that obligation.
15,066. You are aware that a great deal has been said about that kind of obligation, and that some of your tenants and many of Mr. Bruce's have come forward and complained loudly about it?-I know that. I understand the complaint of a great part of Mr. Bruce's tenants has turned very much upon the question whether they should be allowed to dry their fish for themselves.
15,067. To some extent it has; but they also wish to be able to sell their fish as they please, whether they dry them or not. Still it is the case that a good many of them have spoken very strongly in favour of being allowed to cure their fish for themselves?-I would not carry on the fishing upon that condition at all.
15,068. Would you not buy the fish if they had been cured by the men?-No. I would not undertake to do that on any consideration, because you would just be swindled, and you could not help yourself in buying the dry fish. The men are not able to cure their fish and be ready to commence the next season's fishing. They could not come to me or to any other person at the end of the year, and say in an independent manner, 'Will you buy my fish?' because, in the first place, they must come to me or to some other person and ask, 'Will you be pleased to supply us with salt and, meal, and so on, and we will dry our fish and deliver them to you?' If we agreed to do so, the men commence, it may be from February, and we supply them with salt, lines, meal, and everything they require, and that goes on until the end of the fishing in August, when we must take their fish, but the fish are mortgaged already. Then, if we go to look at the fish, we find they have been salted with the least possible amount of salt, and they are just a parcel of rubbish; but we have paid for them already by the advances we have made, and we must take them and make the best or the worst of them. Besides, in the case of an unprincipled man, he has got the thing in his own hands, because he is aware that he has already pledged all his fish to you. They are still his property, however; but while the fish are undelivered, it is very easy for him to slip some of them on board one of the packets running to Lerwick, and sell them to any person for cash down. I am not a lawyer sufficient to know whether that would be a case of theft or not; but when the wet fish are weighed to me out of the boat, it is my own fault if I don't cure them so as to be fit for the market; and if any fellow steals any of my fish, then it would be a case of theft. I have seen the results of such a system on a neighbouring property, because Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh's property has only been under his son's management for eleven years. Before then his tenants were at liberty to go anywhere they liked, and they were drowned over head and ears in debt, both to their landlord and to their fish-curers.
15,069. Do you think the indebtedness of the fishermen is reduced when the landlord takes the fishing into his own hands?-I do think so; when they are dealt with in the same manner that is followed at Dunrossness now.
15,070. But you are speaking now of the previous state of indebtedness, not from personal knowledge of [Page 380] your own tenantry, but from what you know of Mr. Bruce's?- I was as well acquainted with them as if they were my own tenantry. I was living at my own place then; and when young Mr. Bruce and I went into partnership together, and endeavoured to secure the tenants from some of the merchants in Lerwick, it was part of our business to ascertain the exact amount of debts upon the south part of the Sumburgh property.
15,071. Are you prepared to say that the amount of debt due by the fishermen on that property was greater then than it is now?-I am not prepared to say anything more than what Mr. Bruce told me about the year 1866 or 1867. 1866 was the last of a series of years when there were very few of them in debt. Mr. Bruce and I were talking over the matter, and I was bragging about how small the debt was in my case, and he told me then that the debt was very much reduced; and I believe that now they are due nothing to any person except himself.
15,072. Can you give an idea as to the amount of debt that was due at the date you speak of? Do you think it would amount to the whole value of the stock on each man's farm in one half the cases?-No; nothing like that. A man's stock mounts up to a large amount of money when it comes to be turned into cash. I would not speak to precise figures; but my impression at present is, that the debt at that time might amount to about three rents, or something like £1200. There might be three rents in arrear of the rental.
15,073. Have you had any experience that enables you to compare your own property, at a time when it was not in your hands for fishing purposes with what it is now?-No. It has never been out of the hands of my family since the time I mentioned.
15,074. I believe it is not a common practice to raise rents in Shetland?-No; there has really been very little done in that way.
15,075. Has that something to do with the system of fishing for and obtaining supplies from the landlord?-I don't think it has been so much that, as the fact that the landlords are resident in the place, and there is a sort of moral pressure brought to bear upon a person who is living in the neighbourhood. You don't like to make yourself odious among the neighbours round about you. I think that has had more to do with it than anything else. It is not the same sort of thing as if a factor was raising the rent for a man living at a distance. On the Annsbrae estate the proprietors had not had the fishing for a long time, but I believe there was not a rise of rent there for two generations, until Mr. Walker commenced to deal with the property a few years ago. The land there was very cheap. I think the land is not over-rented, and there has been very little change upon it in that way until lately.
15,076. I understand the proprietors interested in fishing invariably make advances to their tenants, in the form of meal and goods?- They must do so.
15,077. That, I suppose, arises from a want of ready money among the tenantry themselves?-Yes. Those who have not ready money must have these advances. There are some people who do not require them.
15,078. Don't you think their number would be increased if by a ready-money system they were encouraged to save money and to acquire habits of frugality?-I don't think so. My experience, from the beginning of the business, so far as I have had to do with it, has been, that under the present system a prudent man who chooses to exercise self-denial could pass out of all possible control, either of landlord or fish-curer, to do him any injury. He could, if he chose, draw his money and send it where he liked; and I have had numbers of men who have not dealt to the extent of £1 in the year with me since I began business. They just took their money at the end of the year, and supplied themselves where they chose.
15,079. Does it not seem to you that the improvident have undue facilities for obtaining credit when they get supplies for the fishing from the landlord, who has an inducement to carry them on in the knowledge that they have to fish for him?-That has not been my practice. I don't like to make any bad debts, and in two cases I have turned a man about his business because I could not keep him out of debt. The most profitable fisherman is the man who pays his way, and not the man who takes goods out of the shop.
15,080. But in order to get your boats manned, I fancy you are obliged to make these supplies?-Yes, we must make advances.
15,081. Do you think the system of paying a man cash down for his fish, or at shorter intervals than an annual settlement, could be carried out?-I cannot see how it would work; and besides, I think if such a plan were introduced, the people would just revert to the present system. I am perfectly satisfied that, if you were to pass a law requiring the men to be paid in cash down, the result would be that we would have a meeting, and we would agree to pay so much per cwt., and the fishermen would say, 'We know you, and we will trust to you paying us that price at the end of the season.' That would be the case with the greater number of curers, such as Hay & Co., Mr. Garriock, and myself. The price would be fixed at a particular time but the men would take our word for it that they were to be paid at the end of the season. We would have to pay them a nominal price at short intervals in order to satisfy the law, but they would expect to be paid a higher price at the end of the season, if it turned out that we realized a higher price for our fish. That would be a binding arrangement, on the one side at least.
15,082. But that would not be a very fair bargain?-It would just be the bargain that we are constantly forced to make with the fishermen, because they always expect the curers to be fast on one side, but not on the other. For instance, if they sign an agreement to go to the Faroe fishing from March to August, and it comes a bad year, they don't get so many fish as makes the voyage a profitable one for them, and they say they will rather go to prison than go to the fishing another year, unless you put them upon wages. In the meantime you have made advances to them, and you must give them the chance of that. I know that Messrs. Hay and others have engaged fishermen for that fishing at a settled price, but when the end of the season came the fish had been sold so well that other curers were paying a high rate, and they have just had to put the bargain in the fire, and pay according to the higher price, or lose the services of the men.
15,083. Could not an arrangement of this kind be carried out, that a price should be fixed to be paid weekly, or fortnightly, or monthly, on the delivery of the fish, according as the case may be, and that the fishermen should be entitled, as in the whale fishing, to an additional payment, similar to oil-money, at the end of the season?-Yes, they might be paid at such a rate as the curer could afford, in the same way as is done now; but that would come practically to the same thing as the present system.
15,084. Would it not be a system of paying weekly wages, with an additional payment in proportion to the produce?-It would not be wages: it would be a weekly payment for produce, because weekly wages would never do.
15,085. Would it not virtually be wages, with a bonus on the amount of the produce besides?-I suppose it would; but wages are a different thing from paying a man for what he delivers to you. If you pay a man wages, he may turn lazy and do nothing, and you cannot be looking after him when he is at the fishing.
15,086. But this would be a payment of wages, and something more. He would have an inducement to work in order to increase the total produce at the end of the season?-That might be so; but I have thought over the subject, and I see no other way in which the system can be worked than it is at present. The law will be complied with nominally, but matters would fall back into their old state.
15,087. But if the law only required a certain proportion to be paid at short intervals, could it not be complied with, not only nominally, but substantially, in that way, and still recognise such an arrangement as [Page 381] you consider would be necessary?- It might be, but it would be a very disagreeable and a very difficult thing to carry out. It would be hardly possible to arrange the price that, was to be paid for the fish during the course of the season.
15,088. Would the price not always be very considerably below what the fish were expected to realize?-Supposing the price in a number of years had been, on an average, 7s. or 8s. per cwt. for ling, probably both curers and fishermen might agree to fix 5s. 6d. as the rate at which the men were to be paid in the course of the season, reserving to them a further payment, according as the fishing turned out?-Yes, it might be managed in that way quite well; but then what would the people do before they got any fish ashore at all? How would they be able to live then?
15,089. I suppose the object of the Legislature would be to teach them to lay by something on which they might be able to live when they were not actually at the fishing?-That might be the object, but the people might die in the teaching. It is all very well to come down and see the country in a year like this, when money has been flush; but if you had seen such a year as 1868 or 1869 or 1870, when the people were coming to you in January starving, and wanting you to advance them meal and other things, and a big debt standing against them at the same time in the merchant's books, you would have seen that it was not such a matter of plain sailing then.
15,090. Don't you think that even at that season the fishing might have been prosecuted to some extent?-No; there was nothing to catch. Besides, a good crop makes a great difference in Shetland. I don't think I bought thirty bolls of meal in the south country last year, but I was buying 300 or 400 for the same number of men in those years. Still, although the men are in such distress in bad years, I think you ought to know what an amount of money some of the fishermen have lying in the Union Bank, on deposit receipt. You would find then that they are not so poor as they have been represented.
15,091. Do you think most of the deposits in the banks here under £100 belong to fishermen?-I think so.
15,092. Do you also think that a number of the deposits above that sum belong to people of the same class?-I am satisfied of that.
15,093. In short, you think that almost all the deposits in the banks here must be those of fishermen?-I think most part of them are those of fishermen, crofters, and small tenants throughout the country; because I think that any person who had accumulated more than that sum would be likely to invest it in some more remunerative way than to leave it on deposit receipt in the bank. When people have been told in the public prints that a Shetlander nearly loses his head when he sees a £1 note, it is very important that there should be some inquiry on that subject.
15,094. Do you think that men who are indebted to you, for instance, or to any other person engaged in business, and getting advances in the course of the year, are likely to have deposits in the bank?-I don't think that. I could tell over the names of the men upon my property who I suppose have deposits; but I am perfectly satisfied that none of those who are indebted to me have any deposits at all.
15,095. It has been alleged that a fisherman might get advances from the merchant who employs him, although he had a deposit receipt in the bank, especially in a distant place, where it would cost some trouble to him to go to his bank and get his deposit receipt altered. Do you think he would do so if he only wanted a small sum?-I believe that to a certain extent he would. I believe that he might take advances from his landlord's shop during the season, although he had a deposit receipt, if he saw that he could get the things as moderate upon credit from his landlord as he could elsewhere, paying for them at the end of the year. That is sometimes done when the men want a boat. There are tenants of mine without means of their own, who have come to me and said they wanted a new boat. I would ask them who was to pay for it, and they would tell me that some of the men to whom the boat was to belong were not able to pay for then, although others might be able to pay their share; and it was better for the whole of them to pay their shares at the end of the season, because the men who had the money would have got no advantage by paying it at the time.
15,096. But do you think a man would stand permanently in arrear at settlement with you if he had money in the bank?-No; but if I settle with him in January, I believe he would go and deposit a £10 note from that year's settlement, and begin a new account with me, and get a new boat, and let it stand to his credit until next year. But he would never think of having a permanent running balance with me if he had money of his own in bank.
15,097. Is it a general thing among the men to go and deposit some of their money in bank and begin a new account with you?-Yes, I believe they do that for a single year. They would be great fools if they did not. They keep a pass-book, if they choose, with the shop, and they would be no better off if they were to pay for their goods in money.
15,098. Would they not be better off if they could get their goods cheaper for cash?-I don't know that they could do that. I cannot get the things any cheaper from the Lerwick dealers for cash. I pay my accounts here every six weeks, and get only 2s. 6d. or so off £4 or £5.
15,099. But are not the prices in Lerwick lower than they are in your quarter?-I don't think so. I think I am selling as low as they do in Lerwick, and sometimes even lower. Mr. Gavin Henderson's shop is near ours, and he acts as a powerful pressure upon us.
15,100. Do you sometimes exact liberty money?-I have exacted liberty money two or three times from landholders. I don't take it from young men-only from landholders. Three guineas is what I fixed it at, but I asked a pound only for the last man who fished off the property. His name was James Shewan; and I told him this year that he could fish for nothing, because I wanted his land to put a few sheep on. He is going to fish for nothing this year, and he is to leave at Martinmas.
15,101. That is to say, he is to fish to any party for nothing?-He can fish to any person he likes. I believe in the evidence which has been given, mention was made of a lad Thomas Johnston not getting liberty to go home to his father's house because he was fishing for another curer. The understanding I have with the tenants is, that I expect them all, both young men and old, to fish for me, on condition that I pay them as well as any other person; and I want to put as much pressure as I consider reasonable upon them for that purpose. But young men are not to be bound always to fish at the home fishing, and sometimes there may not be a way suitable for them; and I have told them all in such a case that they could go to Faroe or to Greenland, or go out of the parish into the next parish, and prosecute the fishing there. This lad Johnston, who was the son of a man considerably indebted to me, went down to the other side and fished to Messrs. Hay & Co., and I daresay I did come pretty hard down upon the father for allowing his son to go away. The result was, that the lad spent his winter about a mile and a half or two miles from his father's house in service there, but he has been back since then. On other occasions two or three young men have left the parish when they could not get a convenient boat in it, and gone to Dunrossness to the fishing, and I have never said anything to them about it. There is one lad who is to fish for Mr. Bruce in a boat's crew of his in the incoming season, and I have made no objection to it.
15,102. There was another case mentioned in the previous evidence also-that of a man named Williamson, at Berlin. It was said his son was engaged to a neighbouring crofter as a servant, and that he had been obliged to leave that and come to your employment as beach boy for a lower wage?-I cannot tell anything [Page 382] about that; but, as a rule, I expect the boys to serve me at the beach on the usual terms. I always make a point of informing them in plenty of time, perhaps about August, that I will require so and so the following year, so that they may not make any other engagement. If such a thing took place with Williamson's son, I never heard of it. I had a boy named Williamson in my employment at the beach last season, and I suppose he was a son of old James Williamson's, but I knew nothing about him having been previously engaged to another service. With regard to liberty money, I may say that in 1867 Charles Eunson paid me over £3 or three guineas; and John Flawes. I think they fished to me in the following year.
15,103. One complaint made by the men with regard to the price paid to them for their fish, was that some neighbouring curers at Sandwick, Thomas Tulloch and James Smith, paid 9d. per cwt. more for ling, and also an additional price for other fish above what is called the current price: can you explain how that arises?- I can explain how the current price, according to which we pay, is fixed, but I don't understand how Tulloch and Smith can pay the price they do. If you can investigate that and let us see it in the blue-book, we will perhaps get a wrinkle out of it; but we cannot understand it in the meantime. What I promise to my fishermen, and what I promise any stray boats that come to me-and I have three or four boats fishing to me just now from Simbister property-is, that whatever Messrs. Hay & Co., Mr. John Bruce, Mr. John Robertson, and Mr. Mullay pay, will be paid by me also. Mr. Tulloch and Mr. Smith are no guide to me with regard to the price which I am to pay; and I tell the men they must go to them if they want their price.
15,104. Can you account for their higher prices by the fact that they sell, not to wholesale dealers as the larger merchants do, but to retail purchasers, and thus get both the retail and the wholesale profit?-That may account for it. I know that Tulloch's boat is coming up to Lerwick every week during the summer with casks of fish for retail dealers. Of course, when I am shipping 100 tons, I must allow a middle-man to take them, and he must have his profit; but I have nothing to do with how Tulloch manages his business.
15,105. Do communications pass between you and the other fish-curers as to the price of fish before you settle with your fishermen?-The fact is, that I have always found it the most difficult thing possible to make out what price they were going to pay. One curer may get a sort of a pull over another if he pays 6d. or so above the market price but that leads to very disagreeable feelings. I have asked Hay & Co. repeatedly what price they were to pay, and they have given me no answer; and I have actually found the current price by taking care to be about the last who sold, and seeing what my neighbours had got before me. At the present time I have squared up my books at a certain price; but Mr John Bruce has not settled yet, and if he pays 2d. or 3d. above me I shall have to turn my books over again and pay that additional. I have always been the second last in settling, just in order that I might see what my neighbours were to pay. One year I settled before Hay & Co.'s people, and they paid 2d. a gallon on the livers above me. I paid that up on the next year's livers, and lost a £10 note on the transaction.
15,106. Do you find the fishermen a difficult people to deal with?-Exceedingly.
15,107. Do they make many inquiries as to the prices at which you have sold the fish, or ask to see your accounts?-No. They begin to understand about the end of the season what the price is to be which they are to get. As a general rule we tell them that they will get what other people are getting, and they will hear in time enough; but they never think of asking what I am getting for the fish myself. The Faroe fishers are the only people who would be disposed to be troublesome in that way, because they are entitled to one half of the proceeds of the fishing.
15,108. Have you anything to do with the Faroe fishing?-I have one vessel there; but I don't supply the men with goods. Messrs. Hay or Mr. Leask have been the agents for that; and I merely interpone my security, and pay cash for the goods, without a penny of profit upon them.
15,109. Do you give security to Messrs. Hay or Mr. Leask for the advances which they make to your fishermen?-Yes; they are debited to me.
15,110. Are the fishermen aware that such security is given and that they can get advances at these shops?-Yes. Of course I speak to one of Mr. Leask's men, and tell him that they are not to advance the men beyond a certain amount, for fear of them going over the line.
15,111. Do you get no commission upon their transactions at these shops?-Not one farthing.
15,112. Do the fishermen in the Faroe trade require any exhibition of the bills of sale?-I do not know. I never was asked to exhibit my bills of sale; but they know exactly what the prices are. There are people going back and forward to Leith who know exactly what we get.
15,113. Are the fish sold by public sale in Leith?-No.
15,114. Are they sold by commission agents there?-We have often to sell them direct. It is a miserable thing to put them into a commission agent's hands. We try to make the best bargain we can with the middle-men from Glasgow or Belfast.
15,115. Is there a traveller who comes round and purchases the fish in Shetland?-They very often come round for that purpose.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, WILLIAM SIEVWRIGHT, examined.
15,116. You are a solicitor in Lerwick?-I am.
15,117. Do you act as factor on the property of Mrs. Budge, Seafield?-Yes; I have been so for about two years, or something like that.
15,118. [Shown letter from witness to William Stewart, Kirkabister, dated 22d November 1870, quoted in Stewart's evidence, question 8917]-Did you write that letter?-Yes.
15,119. Have you anything to say with regard to it?-All I have to say is, that the Thomas Williamson mentioned in the letter had been carrying on a small business at Seafield, and the tenants had taken a prejudice against him, and did not wish to do any business with him; the result of which was that he had resolved, or pretty well resolved, to leave the place, and the business premises were likely to be shut up in consequence. Before writing the letter, I had seen several of the tenants there, and particularly William Stewart, who was a leading man among them, and had endeavoured to overcome that prejudice. I told them that Mrs. Budge expected that they would, in her interest, fish to the tenant of the business premises upon equal terms-that is to say, if they could arrange with him upon as favourable terms as with any other body, but not otherwise. They seemed to acquiesce in that, or at any rate did not take any objection to it after I had explained the matter to them; and I believe they have been thoroughly satisfied with their transactions. I may explain further, that most of these tenants, or at least many of them, were in debt, some of them to a large extent, for land rent; and I thought it only reasonable that if they could assist the proprietor, they should do so. There was no compulsion, in the proper sense of the word. The tenants understood quite well that it was merely if they could make a bargain as favourable with Williamson as with any other body that they were to do that.
15,120. Did Williamson become responsible to the proprietor for the rent?-No.
15,121. Has it been paid through him?-I don't think so. Perhaps a few of the tenants have paid it through [Page 383] him, but he certainly was not responsible for it in any way. At any rate, I did not make him bound.
15,122. Do the tenants ever pay their rents directly to you?-Yes. Occasionally they hand them in to Mrs. Budge, who sends the money to me; but the settlements are all made by me.
15,123. How many tenants are there on that property?-I think altogether there are 25 or 26.
15,124. Have they any leases?-No; they are just yearly tenants. The proprietor was very anxious to give them leases, but she is only a liferenter herself, and she cannot give them the warrandice they should have.
15,125. How many of these tenants are fishermen?-I think there should be perhaps 15 or 16 of them, but I cannot be positive as to that. I believe Williamson has two boats manned from among them.
15,126. Has he also a shop?-Yes, a small shop.
15,127. And I suppose the trade of the shop depends on his securing a certain number of fishermen for his boats?-Yes, and on the good-will of the tenants there.
15,128. But if the tenants are in debt, are they not virtually obliged to deal at his shop?-I don't think so.
15,129. Do you think it probable that they could get credit anywhere else?-I certainly think so; and I think Williamson himself is in a position to go a great way in giving them credit.
15,130. Are you aware that Williamson commenced business with a very small capital?-I don't think he could have had much means; but I believe he has paid his fishermen in cash this season.
15,131. You mean that he has paid in cash any balances that were due?-I don't know that there were many balances due. I think the fishermen would not deal much with him, and he actually paid for the fish almost wholly in cash. I know that I sent him about £120 for the purpose.
15,132. Then, notwithstanding the obligation to fish that is laid on the tenants, Williamson has not been able to make a good business there?-I don't think he has, because, notwithstanding that the proprietor wished the tenants to deal with him as much as possible, they have not, in point of fact, done so more than they could possibly avoid. He is nearer to them, and they might get some things more conveniently from him than anywhere else. I am anxious to make it appear that I explained thoroughly to them, that if they could not arrange with him upon as favourable terms as with another, they were quite at liberty to do as they chose.
15,133. Is the letter I have shown you the only one that has passed on the subject of fishing with Stewart or any of the tenants on that estate?-The only one; and I have never had any complaints since it was written.
15,134. Have you had any experience in the management of property in other parts of Shetland?-Not a large experience, but I have a pretty good notion of the manner in which it is managed.
15,135. Can you say whether it is common for rents to be paid through the fish-merchant?-I believe it is rather common that the fish-merchant becomes responsible for the rents. The proprietor says to him, 'You have my fishermen, and you must pay their rents,' or something like that.
15,136. Do you know that, in point of fact, it is usual for a fish-curer to draw a cheque in favour of the proprietor for the rents of a large number of the fishermen employed by him?-I have seen it done. There is a small property in Delting that I have managed, where a number of the rents have been paid in that way; but there was no arrangement whatever that the fish-curer should pay the rents: they just came through him. I have got perhaps £50 at a time in that way.
15,137. You are also a bank agent?-Yes.
15,138. Has that practice not come within your knowledge as a bank agent?-I cannot say that it has.
15,139. You have not been long in that position?-Not long. Besides, I could not be sure that cheques presented were for that purpose.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ROBERT MULLAY, examined.
15,140. Are you a merchant and fish-curer in Lerwick?-Yes, to a small extent.
15,141. Have you any other business?-I have a retail shop here.
15,142. How many boats had you employed in the line-fishing last year?-Seven.
15,143. You have a fishing station at Ireland, in Dunrossness, on the property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister?-Yes. I pay rent to him for the beach and booth.
15,144. Is your station the only place in that neighbourhood where fish can be landed and dried?-There is no other place in that bay where fish can be cured; there is no other beach than the one I have.
15,145. Are the tenants on that part of the Simbister estate under any obligation to fish for you?-None whatever.
15,146. Do they, in point of fact, all fish for you?-Yes; all those who fish out of that bay.
15,147. Is that because there is no other beach?-I suppose there is no other cause for it.
15,148. Would it be a misstatement to say that the Simbister tenants in that quarter are obliged, by the terms of their tenure, to fish for you and for Mr. John Robertson, jun.?-Yes. They are not bound, because there are some of them who fish for me in one year, and perhaps they are at the farthest end of Shetland the next, and then they may come back to me again.
15,149. Do you keep a shop at the fishing station?-I keep nothing there except a supply of fishing lines and hooks.
15,150. Do any of the fishermen there get their supplies from your shop in Lerwick?-They get what they want.
15,151. Do they keep an account with you, which is settled at the annual settling time?-Yes; but many of them never get one penny from me except in the shape of cash. There must be an account for them in my books when settling with them, and when the fishing is divided between them and their partners; but many of them have no individual account for out-takes.
15,152. Have you any interest in the Faroe fishing?-None whatever.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JOHN ROBERTSON, jun., examined.
15,153. Are you a merchant and fish-curer in Lerwick?-I am. I have a retail shop here, and a fishing station at Spiggie on the property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister.
15,154. Are the tenants in the neighbourhood of that station under any obligation to fish for you?-None whatever. If such a statement was made to you, it was entirely wrong. I am quite sure the tenants there do not hold their land under any such condition.
15,155. Do many of Mr. Bruce's tenants fish for you, in point of fact?-I think I had ten boats at Spiggie last year-three men in each boat.
15,156. Were these men mostly from Mr. Bruce's lands?-Almost entirely, I should say.
15,157. Was that because these lands are adjacent to your fishing station?-I believe that is the principal reason why they fished for me.
15,158. Might these men have cured their own fish, or fished for any other merchant, if they had chosen?-Yes.
15,159. Was there any local circumstance that prevented them from doing so?-They could not have cured their own fish in that neighbourhood, because the beach was mine. I possessed it and there is no other beach within several miles.
15,160. Therefore the fishermen residing in that particular place, may be bound to a particular fish-curer by the physical character of the country as well as by a legal obligation?-I believe that is so. That is the only way [Page 384] in which I can account for the men fishing at my station.
15,161. You have certain natural advantages at your station?- Yes; and I presume it is the same in many other cases. At the same time, I am willing to believe that if the men had had a choice of stations, they would just as soon have fished for me as for any other person in that neighbourhood. I settled with them at the end of the year, and paid them according to the current price.
15,162. You did not pay them above it?-No.
15,163. I believe there are some merchants in your neighbourhood who pay considerably above the current price?-They are not exactly in my neighbourhood, but there are such merchants within a dozen miles.
15,164. How do you account for them being able to do so?-I am not able to account for the proceedings of these gentlemen; they always appear to me to be inexplicable.
15,165. Could you not afford to pay at the price which they give?-No, not unless I worked for nothing.
15,166. Could you not do it if you were selling to the retail dealers direct?-I don't think I could: that could not be done, as a general rule.
15,167. Do you sell your fish to wholesale merchants?- Generally; I may say always.
15,168. Do you sell them in one lot at the end of the season?- Generally in one lot.
15,169. Do most of the men run accounts with you for supplies during the fishing season?-A few of them do.
15,170. Have you a store there for that purpose?-I have a station there, and during the summer season I keep some fishing materials at it, such as lines and hooks, and things of that sort. These are the only materials I am expected to supply them with.
15,171. Do you not supply them with meal and other stores?-It is expected that I will supply them with them too, if they ask for them; but the men generally in that neighbourhood are very well off, and they can get their supplies from other merchants, and in fact they do so.
15,172. Do many of them run accounts with you in Lerwick for supplies?-The only article I supply them with is meal, and it is principally the poorer men who get it from me; that is, men who are a little behind, and who would not get credit so readily as some of their neighbours.
15,173. Are these accounts for meal settled at the annual settlement in the usual way?-Yes.
15,174. Have you any other fishings, except at Spiggie?-I have a station at Levenwick also. I have not many boats there. I think there were about half a dozen boats fishing for me last season.
15,175. Have you a store there for supplying the fishermen?-I have, during the summer season, for supplying lines and hooks and other fishing materials. I have also a store there for the sale of general goods.
15,176. Is that a permanent store?-It has been permanent for the last twelve months.
15,177. Do the men keep accounts there when they want goods on credit, and settle for them at the end of the season?-Yes; but my instructions to my factor are, to give as little as possible, except fishing materials and some of the absolute necessaries of life, on credit.
15,178. You are the successor to the business of Mr. Robert Mouat?-Yes, and his predecessor too.
15,179. Were you trustee on his sequestrated estate?-No; it was Mr. William Robertson.
15,180. Did Mouat, during the last two years of his tack, call the tenants together and desire them to fish for you?-No. In October or November 1870 he came and told me he was going to give up the fishing, because he had so many other kinds of business, and he could not look after them all quite well; and he said he would give me the run of the store at Levenwick and the beach during the last two years of his tack that remained. I agreed to take it, and came down to the place. He was there at the time, and he invited a number of the men to wait upon him, and told them what he had resolved to do, and recommended that they should fish for me. Some of the men agreed to do so, and others said they preferred having their freedom to do what they liked; and they did so.
15,181. Did many of the fishermen who had been in Mouat's employment continue to fish for you when you took up that station?-I made up about five or six boats last year out of his men,-perhaps twenty men.
15,182. Did you find that these men were in great indebtedness?- I found that there were some of them very poor and ill-off, much worse than I would like to find them.
15,183. Did you take over any part of the stock which Mouat had in his shop there?-Yes, I bought the stuff that remained in his shop at the Moul.
15,184. Did you pay a full price for that?-Yes; it was sold at a valuation, at which he and I were present.
15,185. What was the quality of the stock?-It consisted principally of lines and some drapery goods. The quality of the goods that I bought was very fair. Some of them had been very recently brought in, but others had lain in the shop for a good while. These articles I generally refused to take.
15,186. Had you to take over any meal?-No; there was not an ounce in the shop.
15,187. Were there any articles of food of any kind?-No.
15,188. Then what you took over was entirely soft goods and fishing materials?-Yes.
15,189. Have you any knowledge as to the quality and prices of the provisions which had been sold in his shop?-No; that did not come within my knowledge at all.
15,190. Have you understood from the people in the neighbourhood whom you have since employed, that the quality was very inferior and the price high?-I have heard such complaints.
15,191. I suppose the people express themselves well pleased with the change that has been made?-I heard of nothing else.
15,192. Was that the only transaction you had with Mouat or with the trustee on his estate with regard to the shop business?-Ever since Mouat became tacksman of that property, I have had some dealings with him every year in the purchase of fish and herrings.
15,193. But had you any other transaction with him in connection with him leaving the property and you taking over the fishermen?-No; nothing beyond what I have stated.
15,194. Are you engaged in the herring fishing?-Yes.
15,195. How many vessels have you employed in it?-I would have perhaps twenty boats from Levenwick and Lerwick going to the herring fishing for about six weeks, commencing on 12th August, and ending about the end of September.
15,196. What is the nature of the bargain which you make with the crews of these boats?-It is understood that I am to pay the prices that are generally paid in Shetland for herrings. Prior to 1869 the price I paid to my men was generally regulated by the price paid by Mr. Methuen, fish-curer, Leith, who is the largest fish-curer in Scotland. He, up to that time, had boats from Mr. Bruce of Sand Lodge. Mr. Bruce, once a year, made a bargain with Mr. Methuen, and generally brought him to a very high figure, and my fishermen expected that I was to pay the same price that Mr. Methuen did. They considered that when Mr. Methuen, the greatest fish-curer in Scotland, was able to give certain price to his men, they ought to get the same and that was the price I always paid until three years ago. Since then the herring fishing has been almost a blank; it has been a source of great loss.
15,197. At that time did you become bound to pay them only the current price in Shetland?-There was no bargain made about that. In fact the fishing is so very uncertain, that it is just a matter of circumstances whether we speak about prices or not. Last year, for instance, I had to prepare for about twenty boats fishing, and, I think I did not get thirty crans of herrings altogether.
[Page 385]
15,198. You did not fix a price per cran at the beginning of the season?-No.
15,199. Are the men who are engaged in the herring fishing the same men who fish for ling during the summer months?-Yes.
15,200. Are the boats different?-Frequently they are the same boats.
15,201. Is the settlement made at the same time as the settlement for the ling fishing?-Yes.
15,202. Is there any other point you desire to mention in connection with this inquiry?-No. The whole question seems to be very well ventilated, and I have nothing to add.
15,203. Would you have any objection to a system of weekly or fortnightly payments for the fish that are delivered to you?-I would have no objection to that if it were practicable, but I think there are difficulties in the way which make it practically impossible.
15,204. Would these difficulties not be removed, or greatly reduced, if the weekly or fortnightly payment were only a portion of the price, or a minimum price of say 5s. 6d. per cwt. for ling, leaving the balance of the price of the fish to the end of the season, and to pay it then?-I don't think that system would work very well. It would entail a great amount of trouble and I cannot see how it could be carried out.
15,205. Would there be any trouble, except keeping cash at the stations and handing it to the fishermen at short intervals?-That would be one great source of trouble.
15,206. Would there be any other?-The difficulty of introducing such a system appears to me to be this, that the poor men would not be able to get on in January and February before the fishing begins, unless they obtained advances of some kind from the merchants. If a system of ready-money payments were introduced, the fish being paid for only when they were delivered in the month of June, then the men would have some difficulty in maintaining themselves in the winter and spring.
15,207. No doubt there might be some hardship or difficulty at first, but after one or two seasons do you not think the men would have learned to provide for that part of the season?-There are certain classes of men that I don't see how such a system could work with at all.
15,208. Could these men not find a certain provision in more application to the winter fishing?-There are some localities where the winter fishing is impracticable. The boats cannot be hauled up and down, so that really there are no fish got except in a few days of exceptionally fine weather.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, PETER GARRIOCK, examined.
15,209. Are you a merchant in Lerwick?-I am an agent in Lerwick.
15,210. Do you keep a shop?-No; but I keep fishing materials for my men, and for general sale.
15,211. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, only in the Faroe fishing. I have three vessels employed in it.
15,212. Where are the men employed in these vessels supplied with their materials and fishing supplies?-Their fishing materials are got from me, and I generally appoint them to get their other materials from Hay & Co., or R. & C. Robertson, or Harrison & Sons. There are four or five individuals in Lerwick that I give them their option to get their materials from.
15,213. Do you guarantee these gentlemen for the advances they give to your men?-Yes; at least of late I have had to do it.
15,214. Do you settle with the merchants before settling with the fishermen?-No, not before. The men get their accounts from them, and we retain the amount.
15,215. Do you receive a commission upon the advances made by the merchants?-Occasionally.
15,216. Do you not always do so?-No. Some of them don't agree to give it; there is no arrangement about that.
15,217. Do those who give it get a reference?-They do not. The men have very often to go to them.
15,218. But you give them the option only to go to certain parties whom you name?-Yes. If they begin to deal with one party, they must deal with the same party during the season, because of the difficulty of keeping accounts with the various parties in the town.
15,219. You name a certain number of merchants with whom they must deal?-Yes; and they are generally the most respectable people in Lerwick, where they can get their supplies most moderately. But the men were naming any one themselves with whom they wished to deal, they would have the same option to deal with him, only they must deal with the same individual for the season.
15,220. Would you give a similar guarantee to a merchant whom the men named themselves?-Yes.
15,221. Do you do that in order that the families of the men may be able to live during the fishing season-Yes.
15,222. But it is only in the event of a man requiring these advances that you give such a guarantee, or require them to go to such a shop?-They all require it.
15,223. Are none of them able to live upon their own resources?- Plenty of them; but still they come for their supplies. There was an instance of that occurred with me only eight days past on Saturday. A man who had been in my employment for two or three years had been engaged two or three weeks before to go to the fishing for the rising season, and he came on Saturday and asked for supplies. I asked him where he wished them from, and he said Hay & Co.'s, and I gave him an order to go there. After giving it to him, he came and asked me for some cash. I told him thought it was rather early to come and ask for cash for the rising season, and that he could hardly have spent the money he had got from me at settlement. After a good deal of pressure, he said that about the time he had settled with me he had got some money from his son, and he had added it to the money he had from me, and had put it into the bank, and he did not like to draw it out again. Therefore it is not altogether from necessity that they get these supplies.
15,224. But they all take them as a matter of course?-Yes. There are some men who always get them, and the other men would think they were not so well treated if they did not get them also.
15,225. Then the necessity of making these advances to the men is one of the elements which the merchant must take into account in making his arrangements for the season?-To some extent it must be.
15,226. Is it not an element in fixing the price which the men are to get, that the merchant has to make advances of that description?- Not so far as the Faroe fishing is concerned.
15,227. In the Faroe trade do the men get exactly the same price for their fish which the merchant realizes?-Yes, and something more.
15,228. Why do you give more?-Just because we are obliged to do it. This year I am paying more than I can get. I am bound to pay the currency, as it is called; and if the currency is higher than I realize for the fish, I am still bound to pay it.
15,229. Have you not been able to sell up to the current price this year?-No. I did not accept the price which was offered to me at one time, thinking the fish would be higher, but instead of being higher they fell. I did not sell until after the men were settled with.
15,230. Are you agent or owner of the fishing smack 'Gondola'?- Yes.
15,231 What was the amount of earnings of the men employed in that vessel last season?-The men's earnings in 1871 were about £19 or £20, on an average, for the season.
15,232. Was that the whole proceeds that were paid from the catch of the 'Gondola'?-Yes.
15,233. Was that the sum of which the men received payment after the necessary deductions?-The sum which each man receives varies according to his position [Page 386] in the vessel. The master received £42, 11s. 3d.; the mate received £25, 8s. 10d.; one man received £21, 6s., and the others ran from that to £19, 13s. 6d., if they were there the whole season, according to the amount of their score-money.
15,234. What was the amount credited to each sharesman for the value of his share of the fish?-It varied from £19, 13s. 6d. to about £21, 6s. for an ordinary sharesman. The score-money makes a little difference between one sharesman and another.
15,235. What was the amount of the share apart from the score-money?-It was £14, 4s. 7d. for the Faroe fishing. That was for the period when they were paid by shares; but there was a part of the season when they were paid by wages, when they were upon an Iceland voyage.
15,236. What was the number of the crew?-There were fourteen during the Faroe fishing. Of these, nine were full sharesmen, and the others varied from threequarters to half a share. There were 121/4 shares altogether, and the whole proceeds of the fishing would be divided by that.
15,237. What was the total take of fish?-20 tons 6 cwt. 3 qrs. 21 lbs.
15,238. Was that a fair average fishing for the season?-No, it was rather a poor season. I daresay it was fully an average for last year; but it was a poor fishing, taking other years into account. We would not consider it a paying season.
15,239. Who classes the quality of the fish?-It is generally the merchant. We usually send the first-class fish to Spain, and the other cod go to the home market.
15,240. You charge 52s. 6d. as the cost price for curing. Is that by arrangement with the men at the beginning of the season?-No.
15,241. Is it rounded upon an estimate of the actual expense of curing for the year?-We cannot ascertain every particular with regard to the expense of curing the fish and bringing them into market; but I am certain we are charging under the rate which it actually costs us, including wages, salt, material, and a great many other things that have to be embraced in it. We have often to include coffee and other things supplied to the women at the beach.
15,242. Are the people employed in your curing establishment paid by weekly wages or by fees for the season?-They are not paid in that way at all. Here [showing in book] is the account of a man, Arthur Leask, who employs some women from the mainland. I make a contract with him for the curing of the fish. He generally gives an order to the women, and I pay them what is contained in that order.
15,243. Is that the way in which most of your curing business is managed?-Yes.
15,244. Do you cure at the island of Linga?-Yes. Here [showing] is another account with people who have been curing for me for a number of years. I entered into the contract first with Laurence Thomson; he died and left the farm, and then John Thomson took it, and now Miss Thomson has it.
15,245. Is the work all done in contract with them?-Yes.
15,246. Do they give orders to their employés in the same way as Leask?-I think they manage it themselves, both there and at Linga, with the exception of the washing.
15,247. Do you pay them in cash?-Yes.
15,248. Have you any transactions with the people employed by them?-No.
15,249. Had they an account for goods in any shop?-Not so far as I am aware.
15,250. In what way are the people paid whom Leask sends to you with orders?-They are paid in cash altogether.
15,251. Have you a written agreement with your Faroe fishers?- Yes; I have a separate one for each smack every year.
15,252. Do you stipulate in that agreement what deductions are to be made?-Yes; at least that is done generally. The deductions, including the expenses of curing and bringing the fish to market, and master's and mate's fees, score-money, and cost of bait, are made from the gross proceeds, and then the balance is divided into two-one half going to the men, and the other to the owners.
15,253. Is there not a deduction for commission?-No; that is generally just an understanding.
15,254. What is that understanding?-That a commission is to be charged. In the account I have produced for the 'Gondola' commission and guarantee are charged at 5 per cent.,
15,255. Do the men at settlement see, or desire to see, the bills of sale?-They have never done so in any case.
15,256. Do they sometimes complain that they did not see them, or make any complaints about the price of the fish?-They are always grumbling; but they never made any direct complaint to me on the subject. In order to save a good deal of that trouble, the North Sea Fishing Co. have produced their accounts, but very frequently they have begun to settle with their fishermen at the currency before the accounts were ready.
15,257. Do the company produce their bills of sale to the men?- They are bound to do it if the men call for them.
15,258. Are you connected with that company?-I am a director of it. Mr. Irvine, of Hay & Co., is the agent.
15,259. Do you know whether, in point of fact, the fishermen generally see the bills of sale of that company?-I cannot tell. That is a matter which is left in the hands of Mr. Irvine.
15,260. Are the men frequently in debt to you at the commencement of the fishing season?-No. There were some men who left me in debt last year, and they have gone elsewhere,-I don't know where. In fact I would rather get clear of a man who is in debt, and take my chance of getting my debt from him afterwards, than employ him again, unless he was a very good man.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JAMES COUTTS, examined.
15,261. Are you a provision merchant in Lerwick?-I am. I have been in business for eleven years.
15,262. Do you deal in anything else but provisions?-Nothing of any consequence. Sometimes I get a little cottons, or small wares as we call them.
15,263. Do you sometimes purchase soft goods over the counter?-I used to do it; but I have not done so for the last twelve or eighteen months.
15,264. Why did you give it up at that time?-There were several reasons for it. I did not think it was a nice thing to do; and sometimes it was more bother than it was all worth.
15,265. You probably found your other business increasing?-It was not for that reason that I gave it up. I got more humbug by it than all the good it was.
15,266. How were you humbugged by it?-I would sometimes take goods in that had perhaps been stolen, and I lost them altogether. It was a kind of broker's business that I did.
15,267. Did you do a good deal of that business at one time?-Not much.
15,268. But still you were a broker to some extent?-It was not worth speaking of.
15,269. What kind of goods were you in the habit of getting in that way?-Various sorts of goods, such as wearing apparel. There was nothing else that I recollect of particularly just now.
15,270. Did you sometimes get cottons and other goods that were not made up into wearing apparel?-Not that I remember.
15,271. I thought you said you had dealt to some extent in cottons and calicoes?-I got them from the south along with my other goods.
15,272. Did you sometimes lay in a small stock of these?-Yes.
15,273. Have you never purchased any cotton, or [Page 387] calicoes, or dress stuffs not made up, from people at your counter?-I cannot recollect just now. I had a small book in which I entered these purchases.
15,274. Have you got that book with you?-I have not seen it for the last six months.
15,275. You will go for that book, and show it to me here?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, LAURENCE THOMPSON, examined.
15,276. Are you a seaman in Lerwick?-I am.
15,277. Have you gone frequently on sealing and whaling voyages from this port?-Yes.
15,278. By what agent, have you been engaged?-I have gone from them all.
15,279. Did you have an account for outfit and supplies from the agent who engaged you every time you went?-Yes.
15,280. When did you go first?-In 1858.
15,281. Did you go as a green hand then?-Yes.
15,282. Where did you get your outfit?-From Mr. Leask.
15,283. Did you settle for it at the end of the voyage?-Yes.
15,284. Did you manage to pay it up the first year?-Yes; and I had 5s. clear.
15,285. Did you ask on that occasion for payment of part of your earnings in cash?-Yes; when I came home I got the 5s. which I had clear. I had had all the rest in goods.
15,286. Did you not want to let part of the goods stand on an account?-No.
15,287. You wanted to pay it all up and to be clear?-Yes.
15,288. Did you continue to engage with Mr. Leask for some years after that?-For two years; and then I went to Mr. Tait.
15,289. Why did you go to him then?-Partly because I wanted a longer voyage; I wanted to go to Davis Straits.
15,290. Had Mr. Leask no ships going the long voyage that year?-Yes.
15,291. Could you not have got a berth from him?-Yes, if I had asked for it.
15,292. Why did you not ask for it?-I did not just incline.
15,293. Why did you not incline?-I had no particular reason for it.
15,294. Had you run up an account with Mr. Leask the year before?-Yes.
15,295. Had you left him clear?-Yes; and I had got £2 in cash.
15,296. Had you a second payment of oil-money to get that year?-Yes.
15,297. Did you get payment of that in money?-Yes.
15,298. Was that before or after you had engaged with Mr. Tait?- It was before.
15,299. How long did you continue with Mr. Tait?-I went five voyages with him.
15,300. Did you get all your supplies during that time from him?- Yes, whatever I asked or wanted.
15,301. Did you always get your balances paid to you in cash?- Yes.
15,302. Had you no difficulty in getting that?-No; whenever I asked them I always got them.
15,303. Were you not sometimes asked to take them in goods?- No. They would ask you if you wanted anything, but that was all; and I got my things as good there as at any other place.
15,304. Had you not, in one of these years, to ask more than once for the money?-No, not to my recollection. If I asked for the money I always got it.
15,305. Was it paid to you in Mr. Tait's office beside the shop?- Yes. I went through the shop into the office, and Mr. Tait settled with me there.
15,306. Did he or any of his people always ask you if you wanted any goods when you went to get your settlement?-No, he did not ask me; but sometimes they would ask me if I wanted anything when I came out from settlement. We could either take it or leave it, any way we liked.
15,307. In some of these years, were there a great number of men going to Greenland?-Yes.
15,308. Were there sometimes more than there were berths for?- Yes.
15,309. But you never lost a berth?-No; whenever I asked it I got it.
15,310. Were you not known to the agents to be a good seaman, and were you not always on good terms with them?-I never was on bad terms with them, and I always got a berth when I wanted it.
15,311. But you always had an account with your agent?-Yes.
15,312. And a good lot of supplies?-Sometimes not very much, but sometimes I had a good lot.
15,313. Do you think the fact of your having a pretty large account had anything to do with your always getting a berth?-I don't think it. Sometimes I would have a good account with one agent, and go to another agent and get a ship from him.
15,314. Did you not always take your supplies principally from the agent with whom you were engaging for the year?-Yes, principally.
15,315. You were five years with Mr. Tait; that would be down to 1866: who did you go to then?-I went back to Mr. Leask.
15,316. Have you been engaged with him ever since?-No; I was with Mr. Tulloch in 1868.
15,317. Why did you leave Mr. Leask at that time?-I don't know. The ship was not in that I was going with, and I just shipped in another one.
15,318. Did you take your supplies from Mr. Tulloch that year?- Yes, whatever small things I wanted.
15,319. Had you been quite clear with Mr. Leask the year before, and got payment of your balance in money?-Yes. I got paid in the Custom House that year.
15,320. Was the amount of your account at Mr. Leask's shop deducted when they paid you at the Custom House?-Yes.
15,321. Then it was merely the balance that was paid to you there?-No; I got the full amount, and paid them back.
15,322. Did you go down to the shop and pay them back there?- Yes.
15,323. Had you seen your account at the shop before?-Yes.
15,324. Is that the way in which you have been settled with ever since?-Yes.
15,325. You see your account beforehand, and then go up to the Custom House, get payment of the cash, and then you bring down the money and settle your account?-Yes.
15,326. When you left the shop after seeing your account and went up to the Custom House, were you told to come back and pay your account the same day?-Yes.
15,327. You were always reminded of that?-Yes.
15,328. And when you came back to pay your account, were you asked if you wanted any more goods?-No. I did not buy anything unless I chose.
15,329. Do you generally get your last payment of oil-money in cash, or in goods?-In cash; but if I want them, I can get it in goods.
15,330. Do you sometimes want it in goods?-Sometimes we may take some trifling things on it if we want them, but if not we get it all in money.
15,331. Have you any reason to complain of having to go to the Custom House and then to go down to the shop and pay your money?-No.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JAMES COUTTS, recalled.
15,332. You have now produced to me the book containing your transactions in the brokery line: are all [Page 388] your transactions in that business entered there?-Yes, so far as I know.
15,333. These transactions do not appear to have amounted, on the whole, to more than two or three per month on an average?- There might be that in some months, but in other months there would be nothing. It was a rare case when I bought anything in that way at all; it was merely when anything was brought to me that I thought worth buying.
15,334. Were these articles paid for in cash or in provisions?- In cash first, and then the people might spend it in provisions afterwards. I have seen me get all the money back again before they went out.
15,335. Have you known many instances of knitters bringing goods or articles of dress to you and selling them?-I never questioned them about that. If they came with an article, I asked their name and the price, but that was all. I have also asked them if they were sure it was not stolen; I was very particular about that.
15,336. Have they ever told you that the goods they were selling were goods that they had got for knitting?-I recollect them saying once or twice that they had taken them for their hosiery, but they took money from me when I bought the goods from them.
15,337. But they told you they had got these goods for hosiery?- They had perhaps got them out of certain shops; but I believe they had generally got them on credit, until they had something made which would pay for them.
15,338. Were these women employed in knitting?-Yes; but there were only one or two cases of that kind.
15,339. But you have known two or three cases in which women, known to you to be knitters, came with goods in that way and sold them?-Yes, they would say they had got them from so and so; but I don't recollect any particular party.