16,000. That, if it is so, would give them an absolute power to compel the men to fish for them, just as much as when a landlord intimates to his tenants that they must fish for his tacksman on pain of removal. Assuming that they have that power, is not that the effect of it?-Assuming that they have that power, that would be the effect of it, but I don't think they have that power. It was never intended that they should have it, and I don't think they have it. I hold that we alone have power to turn off the tenants, and under the lease we only have power to bring in tenants.
16,001. The effect of the lease and the regulations appended to it, so far as I have been able to examine it, appears to be, that if a sub-tenant fails to comply with the rules and regulations appended to the lease, he may be removed by the lessee?-No, we quite deny that.
16,002. How do you reserve power under the lease to deal with the sub-tenant who does not comply with the rules?-We exclude assignees and sub-tenants, except as after-mentioned.
16,003. Perhaps the shortest way of dealing with that matter will be, that I should have an opportunity of reading the lease or it copy of it at leisure?-Certainly, but I may say decidedly that it was not intended that Spence & Co. should have such a power, and it is not being acted on, because we are now in process of warning four or five tenants who will not come under the rules. It was intended distinctly that we reserved all our present tenants, irrespective of Spence & Co. altogether.
16,004. But are not the powers with which Spence & Co. are invested with regard to peats and other matters, really such as to compel the tenants to remove if they do not comply with the rules?-No. The peats are reserved in our hands, for the purpose of compelling them to take care of the peat-banks.
16,005. That is not Mr. Sandison's reading of the lease?-I cannot help Mr. Sandison's reading of it but I am certain that it is the correct reading, from the fact that there was a very considerable correspondence carried on about Spence & Co. being allowed to put in certain tenants during the first two or three years of their lease. They have only right to put in new tenants within a certain time and after that they have no right to put anybody into a vacant farm.
16,006. You were speaking of poor-rates: do you think there has been no reduction of poor-rates in Shetland from any other cause than the reduction of truck?-Not in my opinion.
16,007. Have there not been better crops and better seasons lately?-Yes, but that does not reduce the number of paupers. The number of paupers has been increased rather than reduced.
16,008. But if there are good seasons with regard to crops and fishings, may not a greater number of paupers be maintained by their own friends, and fewer people fall upon the rates?-That might be so; but if the same number of paupers are on the roll, and if the allowances are practically the same, it must follow that the rates should be stationary.
16,009. Your statement is that the number of paupers has not been reduced?-It has not been reduced. It has been rather increased. I may mention that in Unst there has been a decrease from deaths, but not anything to account for a reduction of the rates from 8s. to 2s. 6d.
16,010. With regard to the price of shawls, when you spoke of a shawl being worth 25s. or 30s., did that apply to the merchants who purchase shawls for goods, or to private dealers?-I referred to what the shawls would be sold for to private individuals in the town.
16,011. The prices which you name for shawls are not the prices that were paid by merchants?-No; but with regard to that I may mention that I have heard merchants from the south say that when they sold goods to merchants here, in a great many cases they got goods back. There is a man named Saint in Aberdeen who deals considerably with the merchants here, and perhaps he would be able to give evidence as to whether he does not prefer to pay in cash, but that to give goods is insisted upon by the merchants here.
16,012. Did you mean to say in an earlier part of your evidence that the merchants here get supplies of goods mostly from second-hand houses?-I mean to say that they could get them from better houses if they chose.
16,013. Would you say that J. & R. Morley & Co.; Copestake, Moore, & Co.; Stewart & M'Donald, Glasgow; Fletcher & Sons, Manchester; J. & W. Campbell, Glasgow; Arthur & Co., Glasgow; Mann, Byars, & Co. Glasgow; George Peek, Manchester, Vesey & Sons, London; Allan & French, London, were second-class houses?-No; but I should like to know the extent of business which the merchants here do with them, and whether they deal wholesale with them or not.
16,014. Would you be surprised to hear that Shetland merchants engaged in the hosiery trade obtain the bulk of their goods from such houses as these?-I should say that perhaps that was the truth, but I should like to know the whole truth about the matter, because [Page 406] these houses, large as they may be, have certain clearances occasionally, which it may suit a people such as those of Shetland to take. I know at least one instance of a large quantity of that class of goods coming down in the steamer, and being damaged by a cask of porter being burst upon them, and a claim was made upon the Leith and Clyde Shipping Co. for something like 50 per cent. of profit, because it was a job lot which had been bought from big houses of that kind.
16,015. But I suppose there are job lots bought by almost every house at times?-Yes, but that has been the system here; in fact it has been stated by people in these big businesses, that they did get rid of their over-season's goods in that way.
16,016. I suppose over-season's goods come to all parts of the rural districts of Scotland?-I am not aware of that, but they may do so.
16,017. Is there anything else you wish to say?-Nothing that I am aware of.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, CHARLES OLLASON, examined.
16,018. You are a member of the firm of Charles Ollason & Son, bootmakers, Lerwick?-Yes.
16,019. Did you receive that letter [showing] from Mr. Williamson?-Yes. [The following letter was put in:-] 'Haggersta, Jan. 20th 71.' 'Messrs. Charles Ollason & Son. 'Dear Sirs,-I am sorry to say that by some misunderstanding I did not get the wages that I expected to get; for instead of a 3/4th I only got a 1/2 share, and therefore instead of £18 I only got £12. I was due Mr. Stove £4 from the year that I was at the fishing from him, and he handed in that bill against me to Mr. Irvine, who retained that for him, so in that way I had nothing to get at all. Therefore I am sorry to say that I cannot pay the 15s. that I am due you for the boots that I got in August, and I beg that you will wait till the turn of the season, and then I hope that I will be able to pay you, for I am signed to go in the 'Olive' as a sharesman. If you cannot wait till then, you will be so good as to let me know. You will make out a bill, and I will sign it and hand it in to Mr. Irvine, and let it be marked against me, and then you will be sure of your money then-for it is entirely out of my power to pay you any other way just now. I beg that you will comply with my request, as I can't do better.-Your humble Debtor,
'M. Williamson,'Haggersta,'Whiteness.'
16,020. Was that letter written to you by him in answer to a demand for payment of your account?-Yes.
16,021. Were you surprised to get a letter of that kind explaining the reasons why your account was not paid?-We were not very much surprised, for we believed the facts to be just as he stated them.
16,022. Did you think it a reasonable enough explanation he was not able to pay you?-Yes; it was reasonable enough for him.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JOHN WALKER, recalled.
16,023. I now show you Messrs. Hay & Co.'s store ledger, kept by William Halcrow, their storekeeper here: was Halcrow the party referred to in the report which you mentioned in your evidence?- If Messrs. Hay & Co. say he is their superintendent, he is the same individual.
16,024. Is Messrs. Hay & Co.'s the largest establishment of that kind in Lerwick?-I understand so.
16,025. And the party mentioned in the report describes himself as superintendent of the largest establishment in this place?-Yes, general superintendent, and the other is described as the manager of the working department. The general superintendent is the one who signs his name, and the other is the one who signs with a cross, and they are the parties who speak about the resources of science and art.
16,026. Is the book I now show you kept in a fair enough mercantile hand?-Fair enough.
16,027. Would, you be surprised to hear that it was kept by William Halcrow?-I would not. The reason why I mentioned this matter at all was to show the subserviency of the people in Shetland,-that they are accustomed to do what they are bidden,- that they are ready to sign their names to what they really cannot understand, if they think it is doing a favour to any one above them.
16,028. Do you think Halcrow was incapable of understanding such a phrase as the resources of science and art?-I think so, as it is applied here; because I may mention that in the correspondence which passed before, and which refers to the same parties, they said they did not know that whales had skins.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ARTHUR LAURENSON, recalled.
16,029. I understand you have heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Walker with regard to the merchants in Lerwick, and that you wish to make some explanation in regard to it?-I have not heard it, but the substance of it has been reported to me since I entered the room. I have been told that he said that the merchants in Lerwick buy from second-class houses, and pay for their goods by consignments of hosiery. I wish to refute that, so far as I am concerned; and I refer to Messrs. J. & W. Campbell, Glasgow; Stewart & M'Donald, Glasgow; Arthur & Co., Glasgow; John Clapperton & Co., Glasgow, and Geo. Peek & Co., Manchester, as a proof that I deal with first-class houses.
16,030. Are these the only houses with which you deal?-No; I deal with a good many more.
16,031. Are there any houses from which you get portions of your goods which might be characterized as second-class houses?-No.
16,032. Is it the case that you ever get job lots or over-seasons goods?-Never, unless in the ordinary way of trade. Perhaps an article may be shown to me by a traveller occasionally, but only one pattern out of fifty which may be described as a job lot.
16,033. You do not get in a larger proportion of these goods than other dealers in other country towns?-No; I never bought a job lot altogether in my life. We never pay by consignments of hosiery.
16,034. Is there anything further you wish to state?-At the close of my last examination I wished to make objection to the credibility of a witness. I was asked to state it privately, and I now hand in paper with regard to it. [Produces paper.]
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.
16,035. Do you wish to concur with Mr. Laurenson in the statement which he has now made?-Yes. The only difference is that I deal with more houses in London.
16,036. The list of houses which I read from in putting a question to Mr. Walker was furnished by you?-Yes; but it does not include one half of the houses that I deal with. I wish also to say that I have now been 25 years in business, and I never to this day exchanged 2d. worth of hosiery goods for goods in the [Page 407] south. I do not mean to say that I have not bought hosiery goods for goods here, but I have never exchanged them in the south for other goods.*
16,037. Does any one present wish to give any further evidence?- [No answer.] Then I adjourn this inquiry. I have to think the Commissioners of Supply for the use of this room, which they have kindly furnished to me; and I have also to return my thanks to all parties in Shetland with whom I have met, for the courtesy which I have received from them, and for the readiness which they have shown in furnishing me with all information which I required.
*Mr. Linklater also, on the same day, sent the following letter to the Commissioner, referring to the same subject:-
LERWICK, 31st January 1872.W. GUTHRIE, Esq.
Sir,-I am sorry that I was absent when Mr. Walker in his evidence before you today stated, as I have been told, that the merchants here bartered their goods in exchange for drapery goods from second-class warehouses in the south. I beg to state that I have been thirty-seven years in business here, and have paid cash for all the goods ever I bought, and beg to refer you to the following houses from whom I get my goods.-I am, sir, yours very respectfully,
J. & W. Campbell & Co., Glasgow; Stewart & M'Donald,Glasgow; Arthur & Co., Glasgow; Anderson & Co., Glasgow; J.Clapperton & Co., Glasgow; Chamberlain & Birrell, Glasgow;John Howell & Co., St. Paul s, London; Fandel, Phillips, & Co.,Newgate Street, London; Hutton & Co., Newgate Street, London;D. Hyam, Houndsditch, London; Copestake, Moore, & Co.,London; George Peek & Co, Manchester; Hall, Russell, & Co.,Bradford.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. JOAN WINWICK or FORDYCE, examined.
16,038. Do you live in Chromate Lane, Lerwick?-Yes.
16,039. Is your husband alive?-Yes. He is a pensioner. He was a carpenter to trade, but he does nothing now.
16,040. Do you knit worsted work?-Yes, I knit, but for myself only. I knit with my own wool, and sell the goods.
16,041. Have you never knitted with merchants' wool?-No.
16,042. To whom do you generally sell your hosiery?-I always sold it to Mr. Robert Sinclair since he became a merchant. I always knit haps or coarse shawls.
16,043. What do you pay for the worsted which you use in knitting?-When I buy the worsted it is 2d. per hundred; but when I buy the wool and spin it myself, it comes to be a great deal dearer. We cannot get proper worsted to buy, and we have to manufacture it with our own hands.
16,044. Is the worsted which you buy at 2d. per hundred the kind which you use for a hap of ordinary quality?-Yes.
16,045. At what price do you sell a hap two yards in size made of that worsted?-Perhaps about 10s.
16,046. Have you any of these haps in hand just now?-No.
16,047. Have you sold any lately?-No; I have not sold any this winter. I have not been knitting this winter to sell. I have just been doing things for my own family.
16,048. What else have you knitted besides haps?-I have knitted nothing but haps for a good while. Since I could not see to do finer work I have been spinning worsted and making frocks for my husband, and stockings and things of that sort.
16,049. Where do you buy your worsted?-I have not bought any worsted for a long time. I always bought the wool and spun it myself, because I could not get the worsted to buy.
16,050. Where did you buy your wool?-I buy skins from the women who sell the sheep, and get the wool ru'ed off the sheep when they are killed.
16,051. Are there women who go about and sell wool in that way?-They sell mutton, but they will sell wool to us when we go to their houses and ask them for it.
16,052. Do these women buy the whole sheep?-Yes, they buy them alive; and when they have killed them, they sell the mutton to any person in the town who will buy it.
16,053. Are there many such women?-I suppose there are a few, but I cannot say how many.
16,054. Is that the way in which many people get their supply of wool for spinning?-I think it is, because we cannot get wool in any other way.
16,055. How much wool do you buy at a time?-I have bought 10s. or 12s. worth at a time,-just the skin as I could get it.
16,056. How much do you think you pay for the wool per lb. in that way?-I have seen it cost me 2s. and 16d. and 18d.; but it has been higher of late since the wool became so dear.
16,057. Is not that a very high price for it?-Yes.
16,058. Is it not more commonly about 1s. per lb.?-Yes. When I came to Lerwick it was 1s., 8d., and 6d.
16,059. Is it not still to be got at 1s. per lb.?-Perhaps it may be in country places, where they have plenty of it; but I cannot get it for 1s. unless it is very coarse, and a great deal of refuse in it.
16,060. How much wool does it take to make a hap two yards square?-About 2 lbs. That would be 16 hundreds or cuts.
16,061. Are you speaking all this time of a hap of the ordinary quality?-Yes, the ordinary quality.
16,062. Do you know what a woman gets for knitting a hap of that kind when it is given out?-I cannot say exactly; but I think they give some knitters for plain work only 2d. per hundred, or perhaps a little more. That is what they say they get for knitting plain work.
16,063. Do they count the payment of the knitting by hundreds?-I suppose some of them do, but I have never put out any to knit myself, or taken any in to knit.
16,064. Then for a hap like that, if there were 16 hundreds in it, the knitter would get only 2s. 8d. for the knitting?-Yes; but I think that for knitting borders they get a little more. It is for plain frocks that they say they get 2d. per hundred.
16,065. Are you always paid in goods for your work?-Mr. Sinclair always gave me what I asked. When I asked a little money I got it, and when I required goods for my family, such as soap, soda, or tea, I got them too.
16,066. But I suppose it was understood that you were to be paid in goods?-Yes, that was the custom of the place; but he always trusted me with anything I wanted, if I happened to be due him something at times.
[Page 408]
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. ROSINA DUNCAN or SMITH, examined.
16,067. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes.
16,068. Is your husband alive?-Yes. He is turning an old man now, but he was at the sea at one time.
16,069. Has he got a pension?-No.
16,070. Do you employ yourself in knitting?-I knit a little for my own family.
16,071. Have you given up knitting for other people-Yes.
16,072. Did you knit for Mr. Sinclair at one time?-I sold him a few haps last year.
16,073. Did you sell him a great number before that-I did not; but when I had any little things I sold them to Mr. Joseph Leask, and got money articles for them.
16,074. Did you ever sell so many as half a dozen to Sinclair?-I cannot say, for I did not count them. The last one I sold was to him.
16,075. What did you get for it?-12s.
16,076. How much wool was in it?-I cannot say, for I spun it myself, and wrought it until it was done.
16,077. Do you not know how many cuts of worsted were in it?- No; I did not count them.
16,078. What was the size of it?-I suppose it would be about two yards.
16,079. Was it made of fine wool or ordinary wool?-It was just the ordinary wool that is used for haps.
16,080. Were you paid in money or in goods for it?-I was paid mostly in goods, but he gave me money without my asking for it.
16,081. How much money did you get?-1s. or so. I could not exactly say how much, but he gave me what I required. I got the goods which I required, and he gave me that money, and he also gave me tea, which was the same as money, because if I had had to buy it I would have had to pay for it.
16,082. Could you get money for the tea?-I did not sell it; I kept it for my own use.
16,083. Did you ever sell anything that you got for hosiery?-No. I always required anything I got for my own family.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, GRACE SLATER, examined.
16,084. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes.
16,085. Do you do anything else?-I keep lodgers. They are generally workmen, such as masons.
16,086. Do you knit a good deal?-No; all that I do in that way is very trifling. It is generally fine veils that I knit.
16,087. Who do you sell them to?-Mr. Sinclair; I work for him; he gives me the worsted. It is Scotch worsted that I get, but I don't know the quality of it, nor the price.
16,088. Have you got any of these veils in hand just now?-Yes, I have a few that I am knitting.
16,089. Do you knit with your own wool at all?-No, I only work for him.
16,090. How much do you get for knitting one of these veils?- From 16d. to 1s., according to the quality as it is coarse or fine.
16,091. Do you get more for knitting one of fine worsted than one of coarse?-Yes.
16,092. Will you bring one of the veils that you are knitting just now and let me see it?-Yes,
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ELIZABETH MALCOMSON, recalled.
16,093. Do you live with your mother in Baker's Close, Lerwick?-Yes.
16,094. What do you do?-I sometimes knit, and sometimes sew; but I mostly knit. My mother knits sometimes, and does the house-work.
16,095. Do you support yourself mostly by knitting?-Yes, almost entirely.
16,096. What kind of knitting do you do?-Fine veils and shawls.
16,097. Are you paid for them in money or in goods?-Always in goods.
16,098. Do you sometimes get a little money?-No, I never asked for it.
16,099. Do you get money for your sewing?-Yes. I sew to private people, and they always pay me in money.
16,100. Where do you buy your provisions?-From any shop I like. I don't go to any one in particular.
16,101. Where do you get the money for that?-From my sewing.
16,102. Do you get all the money that you require for provisions by your sewing?-No. We generally keep a lodger or two when we can get them.
16,103. Would you not prefer to get some money for your knitting?-Yes; but it never was the practice to ask for it, and therefore I never thought of doing so.
16,104. Would you not be better off if you had money for your knitting, which you could spend upon provisions?-I think I would be; but I never thought of asking it, as it is not the usual thing.
16,105. What kind of goods do you get for your knitting?-Tea, sugar, soft goods, groceries, or any kind of goods that are in the shop.
16,106. Do you get most of the dress for yourself in that way?- Yes.
16,107. Do you knit a greater number of articles than are sufficient to supply yourself with dress?-Yes.
16,108. What do you do with them?-I buy anything that is required for the house.
16,109. Do you sometimes get goods for your friends if they want any?-No, I generally require all I get for myself.
16,110. You don't get provisions for your knitting?-No.
16,111. Do you get enough money for your sewing and from your lodgers to supply you with provisions all the year round?-Yes; it has always done so in time past.
16,112. Is there anybody living in family with you except your mother?-No.
16,113. What is the usual price that you get for your fine shawls?-We generally get 10s. or 12s., but that is not the very finest worsted either.
16,114. Are these shawls knitted with the merchant's worsted?- Yes.
16,115. It is always given out to you, and you keep an account?- Yes.
16,116. Do you know what quality of worsted it is that you knit one of these shawls with?-It is usually Shetland worsted. The price of it is 31/2d., and some of it 4d. per cut; at least I would think so, judging by the fineness of the worsted.
16,117. Have you sometimes bought worsted yourself?-Yes, sometimes.
16,118. Have you bought it often enough to know the quality and price?-Yes.
16,119. What size of shawl is it that you get 12s. for?-About 21/4 yards. That, is, 25 scores on each border, and there are four borders in the square.
16,120. Then you could say quite positively that for a shawl of 25 scores, knitted with 31/2d. worsted, and measuring 21/4 yards, you got 12s. in goods?-Yes.
16,121. Do you ever sell shawls to any persons except the merchants?-No.
16,122. When did you last take any veils to the shop?-I think it was the week before last. I got 9d. each for them; they were knitted with Scotch wool. When they are coarse, there is less paid for knitting than when they are fine.
16,123. Were these coarse veils?-No, they were ordinary quality. The worsted was not the very coarsest.
16,124. Do you know what was the value of the worsted per cut?-I cannot say.
16,125. Who did you sell them to?-To Mr. Robert Linklater.
16,126. Do you know what you would pay for them at the shop?- I think it would be about 2s. or 2s. 6d.
16,127. Would you go and buy one of them and bring it to me here?-Yes.
[Page 409]
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, GRACE SLATER, recalled.
16,128. [Produces veil.] Is that one of the veils you are knitting for Mr. Sinclair just now?-Yes. It is his own worsted that I am working it with. I think I will get 16d. for it. I have got that for veils of the same quality.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.
16,129. Do you wish to make any explanation with regard to what the witness Grace Slater has now said?-The only explanation I have to make is, that the veil she has now produced belongs to the same class of goods as that with regard to which Mr. Linklater and I were previously examined. The veil which she has produced is quite a good thing, but in the same class of goods there are a great number of job articles which tear in the dressing.
16,130. What is the selling price of such veils?-From 2s. 6d. to 2s. 9d. That is the highest price we get for them.
16,131. What quantity of worsted is in one of them?-About 6d. worth of worsted.
16,132. Is that two cuts of 3d. worsted?-No, it is mohair. But there will be other veils of the same kind which will be worth not more than 18d. or 20d., and therefore the profit which we get upon one veil is no proof as to the amount of profit, if any, which is got upon the whole.
16,133. What quantity of worsted is there in a veil like that?- About 1/4 oz. The price of that worsted is about 36s. now, but I paid 32s. 6d. for it. Taking it at 32s., that would be 2s. per oz., and therefore 1/4 oz. would be 6d.
16,134. How many bad lots might you have in an ordinary time in such veils?-The only way of getting at that would be by examining our books. This very season I had a lot of about 30 dozen veils, which cost me altogether about £45, and I sold them for about the lot.
16,135. How did that happen?-Just because I could get no more for them. I would have been very glad to have got more if I could. I may mention that there is not 20 per cent. of these veils which realize the price I have mentioned of 33s. per dozen, although they all cost that price. Most of them run about 2s. 2d. or 2s., or something like that.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ELIZABETH MALCOMSON, recalled.
16,136. [Produces black veil.] Have you bought this veil from Mr. Linklater?-Yes. He says these veils sell at 18s. a dozen, or 1s. 6d. apiece; but this one is undressed, and therefore I only paid 1s. 41/2d. for it.
16,137. Is this one of the veils which you knitted, and for which you got 9d.?-Yes.
16,138. Do you not know the value of the worsted required for it?-No.
16,139. You said you know the value of the worsted in the shawls you knit?-Yes.
16,140. Then how do you not happen to know the value of the worsted in the veil?-Because I knitted them for myself in the one case, and in the other I always got the worsted to knit them with.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ALEXANDER MUNRO, examined.
16,141. What are you?-I am second officer of Customs at the port of Lerwick.
16,142. How long have you been in that position?-Fully five years.
16,143. Were you here before it was usual to pay the seamen engaged in the Greenland voyages at the Custom House regularly?-No; I came here in the first year that the special regulations came into effect-1867.
16,144. Did it come under your notice after you came here, that the men who received their wages at the Custom House were frequently indebted to the agents by whom they were engaged?-I am not cognisant of the fact whether they were indebted or not.
16,145. Were you not aware that settlements were sometimes made with the clerk of the agents, or the agents themselves, for accounts due to them at the time when the men were receiving their wages before the superintendent?-Yes, I understood so.
16,146. Was that frequent during the first year that you were here?-Yes.
16,147. Were these settlements actually made in 1867 in the Custom House?-There were deductions taken from the balances shown to be due to the seamen, in addition to the deductions specified in the agreement.
16,148. Did the superintendent interfere to prevent these deductions from being made in his office?-Yes; the parties were interfered with by the superintendent, and the practice was stopped.
16,149. Was that in 1867 or subsequently?-I think it must have been in 1869 or 1870.
16,150. Did the practice go on without interruption or objection until that time?-Not without interruption. We tried to stop it, but we did not succeed altogether until 1869 or 1870.
16,151. Since that time has any attempt been made, within your knowledge, to make a deduction of that kind in the Custom House?-Not so far as I am aware.
16,152. Have you been aware whether seamen have received the money payable to them under deduction of the agent's account in any case?-I could not positively say, but I think I have seen it done.
16,153. Have you suspected that the seamen were receiving only a part of what was really payable to them?-Yes.
16,154. What reason had you to suspect that?-Because I could see them keeping the deduction off.
16,155. Is the money usually counted in presence of the superintendent or of yourself?-Yes.
16,156. Has that always been so?-No. It should always be done, but it has not been done at all times.
16,157. Is there sometimes a press of business which prevents it?-Yes, sometimes; and you cannot always keep your eye watching everybody.
16,158. Do the cases to which you refer, occur when there is a press of business?-Occasionally.
16,159. Are you aware that seamen coming to receive their wages at the Custom House have usually had a settlement with the agent beforehand at his office?-I am not aware of that.
16,160. Have you found, in the course of your experience, whether the seamen, when paid at the Custom House, generally know the amount of their account at the agent's shop?-I am not aware of that either.
16,161. Have you at any time heard the agent, or his clerk, while settling with the seamen, or after settling with them, in presence of the superintendent, remind them that they had to go down to his office and pay their account?-I cannot say positively that I have heard the agents say that to the men, but I know that it was an understood thing that they should do so.
16,162. Is it not so now?-I fancy it is.
16,163. How did you know that it was understood?-I have overheard the agent and the men talking about it between themselves in the office. I could not exactly bring the words to my remembrance which I have heard used, but I have seen cases where a small balance might be due, and when the agent did not have change to settle with a man, he said he would settle when he came to settle the other account at the shop.
16,164. The matter has come under your notice in that way, so that you have come to be aware that it is a usual thing for the men to go down and pay their accounts [Page 410] after having been settled with at the Custom House?-I should fancy it has.
16,165. Have you had anything to do with the engagement of seamen?-Occasionally.
16,166. Are they ever engaged in presence of the superintendent?-For foreign-going vessels they are always engaged there.
16,167. Are they so engaged for the Greenland and sealing vessels?-Yes.
16,168. Is the agent present then and the captain of the vessel?- Yes.
16,169. Is the selection of the men usually left to the agent, or does the master of the vessel exercise a choice?-I fancy the agent collects the men and the master selects them out of the crowd.
16,170. Does the agent interfere with the selection?-I am not aware. They are all selected before they come before us.
16,171. Have you noticed whether in recent years the number of young hands engaged in the sealing and whaling voyages has been less than it was when you first came to the office?-I have not observed that.
16,172. Have you heard any of the men complain that they could not get their wages paid when they wanted them?-I have heard complaints with regard to the second payment of oil-money. The men said the agent had not got his return, or something to that effect, that he was not aware of the quantity being ascertained.
16,173. Is that the only complaint you have heard on the subject?-I think so.
16,174. Do you know whether there was any difficulty or objection on the part of the agents to comply with the regulations when they were issued?-There was little bit of difficulty, and I have no doubt there was little objection at the time.
16,175. What was the ground of it?-I cannot say, except that it was troublesome.
16,176. Was there no objection made to you or in your presence?-No; I cannot bring a case of that kind to recollection.
16,177. Then what was the difficulty or objection that you refer to?-I suppose it was the compulsion of bringing the men forward to be discharged, and producing store-books, and all that.
16,178. Do you mean that the agents do not like to have the settlement made in presence of the superintendent at all?-I don't mean to say that exactly; but I mean that it gave them a good deal of extra trouble, and it was sometimes disagreeable.
16,179. You have said that there was a good deal of difficulty in getting them complied with at first: do you remember any explanation or reason that was given by the agents for that?-The first year I came here the master of each vessel had to get a store-book, in which were entered the goods or whatever extra stores might be supplied to the men during the voyage, and I have known these books coming ashore signed by the master and the men when they came into the agents' hands, as it proof of their correctness. Then the shop goods which had been supplied to the families of the men during their absence were entered in, but we had to compel them to deduct these and delete the entries.
16,180. Was that a difficulty which you had in 1867?-Yes, the first year.
16,181. Did you find it to exist after 1867?-No; we stopped it at once.
16,182. Then in 1868 there was still a difficulty, as you have already said, in getting the regulations enforced: what was the difficulty then?-The only difficulty then was the agent deducting his own account from the balance shown in the men's account, and handing over the net balance only.
16,183. That did not appear in any written accounting that took place before you?-No.
16,184. Have you seen that attempted so lately as 1870 or 1871?- Not in 1871, I think. I rather think the last time was in 1870, but I could not be positive.
16,185. Are the rules strictly observed now?-So far as we can attend to them, they are.
16,186. Are you not able to attend to them?-Yes.
16,187. Then they are attended to?-Yes.
16,188. What did you mean by qualifying your answer, and saying, so far as you could attend to them?-I meant by taking steps to stop all these informalities.
16,189. But there are no informalities now?-No.
16,190. Is there no delay now in settling?-There is delay in settling, most undoubtedly.
16,191. Is that not strictly prohibited by the regulations?-I don't think it is. There are five days allowed for settling, according to the Act; but here it takes five or six or seven or eight months.
16,192. What is the cause for that in your opinion?-I cannot say.
16,193. Have you any doubt that the men would come forward to be settled with if they were instructed to do so by the agent and the master of the ship?-I should think they would, and be paid within a day or so after the ship's arrival. I think that would be far better for all parties.
16,194. Are you aware whether there is any difficulty in making up the statutory accounts of wages which justifies a delay of five or six months in settling?-No. I think they can be made up in the course of ten hours for any whaling crew.
16,195. But there may be a difficulty in making up the account at the agent's shop, may there not?-I don't know. They might have that prepared beforehand, if it was necessary.
16,196. Do you know whether the effect of the delay which so occurs is to make the men incur larger accounts at the agent's shop?-I am not aware of that.
16,197. Have you ever heard any statement from the men to the effect that they had to go to the shop during that period of delay?-I never did.
16,198. Do you think it is the fault of the men that the settlements are so long delayed?-There is no doubt a fault on the part of the men, because, if they go away to their homes in the distant islands, there must necessarily be a difficulty in collecting them again.
16,199. But is it not the custom to let them away in the first instance without directing them to come and receive their wages?-I think so.
16,200. Do you know whether they have ever been strictly ordered to attend for that purpose by the master of the ship?-Not to my knowledge.
16,201. Where are the men usually landed from these whaling vessels?-They are sometimes landed at the lighthouse, sometimes at Scalloway, sometimes at Sumburgh Head, but most commonly at Lerwick harbour.
16,202. Are nine out of every ten landed there?-No, but more the one half of them are landed in Lerwick harbour.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. MARGARET SMITH or GIFFORD, examined.
16,203. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes.
16,204. Do you knit haps?-Yes; but only a few, because I am getting old and weak, and I am not so able to work as I used to be.
16,205. Have you knitted lately for Mr. Sinclair?-I have knitted for him for a long time. I think it is about a fortnight since I sold my last hap to him. It was between 11/2 and 13/4 yards.
16,206. What kind of wool was it made of?-Just common wool of different kinds-grey and black and white.
16,207. Was it worth about 2d. per hundred?-It would be worth about that.
16,208. What did you sell it for?-6s.; that was what I commonly got for these little haps.
16,209. Did you sell it for that price in goods?-I was to get anything I wanted. I have something to get yet. I got tea and soap, or anything I required, and I shall get the rest as I need it.
16,210. Was that about the ordinary price which you got for a hap of that size and quality?-Yes. If I could make them bigger, I would get more money, perhaps 10s., and from that down to 6s.
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16,211. How long have you been dealing with Mr. Sinclair?-I have dealt with him from 1840 or 1845.
16,212. Have you always been paid by him in goods during that time?-Yes, when I asked them; but if I asked any other thing I got whatever I asked.
16,213. Have you bought articles for money in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-It was not very often that he got any money from us; but when I wanted anything from him, I found there was no difference whether I paid for it in money or in goods.
16,214. Do you mean that you paid the same price for the goods which you bought, whether you paid for them in money or in hosiery?-Just the same; I never saw any difference.
16,215. Are there not two prices in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-Not so far as I know; but I can only speak for myself.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, WILLIAM GARRIOCK, examined.
16,216. Do you live in Sandsting parish?-Yes.
16,217. Are you serving in the Naval Reserve in Lerwick just now?-Yes.
16,218. Have you been bred to the sea?-Yes.
16,219. Where have you been at sea?-I have gone to Greenland and Davis Straits, for the most part.
16,220. Have you ever been at the Faroe fishing or at the ling fishing?-No.
16,221. Have you been south?-Yes, I was south for a short time; but I have generally gone to the seal or whale fishing since I was able to go.
16,222. From what agents have you got your engagement?-From Mr. Joseph Leask, Mr. George Reid Tait, and Messrs. Laurenson & Co.
16,223. How long have you been doing that?-Since 1854. I have been in Greenland almost every year since then.
16,224. Did you always get your outfit from the agent with whom you were engaged?-Always.
16,225. And some supplies for your family besides?-Yes.
16,226. Did you keep an account in the agent's shop, from which your family got what they wanted during your absence?-Yes.
16,227. Did your wife get all her supplies from Lerwick?-No; she got most of them from shops in our own neighbourhood, because it was a long distance to come to Lerwick; but sometimes she sent here, and sometimes not.
16,228. Why did she send here for them?-Sometimes she had to send here for money when she could not get money from her neighbours.
16,229. Did she get money here whenever she wanted it?-Yes, so far as ever I knew.
16,230. Did she have allotment notes?-Yes, towards the end of the time, but not at first.
16,231. Did you always take allotment notes for her use while you were absent?-I have done so lately.
16,232. Are these allotment notes taken in her name?-Yes; but sometimes I have been so much indebted to the agent before I left, that I had to leave the allotment note with him until he was paid.
16,233. Have you done that lately?-Yes.
16,234. Had you been in his debt before you engaged with him?- No. I got into his debt at the time of engaging. I got a lot of things from him then.
16,235. Did you leave your allotment note in his hands as a security for the payment of these supplies?-Yes.
16,236. Was the note taken in the agent's name?-No; it was taken in my wife's name, and she was supplied by him if she required anything.
16,237. Who was the agent you engaged with last year?-Messrs. Laurenson & Co. I also engaged with them the year before. The year before that, I think I engaged with Mr. Joseph Leask.
16,238. In all these years did you run up a pretty large account at the agent's shop?-Yes; I always had an account with the agent.
16,239. Did you settle that account before you went up to the Custom House to be paid your wages?-No. Sometimes the agent was at the Custom House to receive payment of his account there, and sometimes I went down to his shop and paid him after I had been paid myself.
16,240. But was the account settled in the book, and the amount due by you to him ascertained before you went up to the Custom House?-Yes.
16,241. Was that done always?-No, not of late.
16,242. Why did you get supplies from Lerwick when you could have got them nearer home, without giving your wife the trouble of sending so far for them?-Sometimes, perhaps, I could not get credit from a neighbour.
16,243. Could your wife not have got money from the agent in Lerwick by sending in her allotment note to him?-If I was in debt to the agent, I could not expect him to advance money until he was paid his debt; but I never saw an agent refusing money, even although there was an account due to him.
16,244. Did you ever ask money and get it when there was an account due?-Yes.
16,245. Do you mean that your wife asked for money when you were away?-Yes.
16,246. Did she require it for any particular purpose when she asked it in that way?-I cannot say.
16,247. Did you ever know of her asking for money in order to buy supplies near home?-No, I never knew that.
16,248. Do you think she would have been likely to?-I don't think it. I think if she had ever done it, I would have known.
16,249. Do you think she would have got the money if she had asked it for that purpose?-I am sure she would.
16,250. Then why did she not do it instead of carrying her supplies all the way from Lerwick?-I don't know as to that.
16,251. How far is it from Lerwick to your place?-I never heard of it being measured, but I should say it is over twenty miles.
16,252. You say the agent keeps your allotment notes, even although they are in name of your wife?-Yes, if I am indebted to him.
16,253. Don't they require to be signed by your wife?-Not at first.
16,254. But afterwards?-Yes; if she has a note, then of course she has to sign it before she gets the money.
16,255. But she does not require to sign it when she gets supplies; these are set down to the account?-Yes; she does not require to sign it unless she is drawing her half-pay at the Custom House.
16,256. Has she ever drawn her half-pay, so long as you remember?-Yes.
16,257. Is that long ago?-It is perhaps a couple of years ago.
16,258. How much of it did she draw then?-She drew half a month's pay every month when I was away.
16,259. What did she do with that?-I suppose she required it.
16,260. Did she spend it at home or in Lerwick?-I cannot say.
16,261. Was the allotment note in the agent's hands at that time?-No.
16,262. She had got the allotment note that year herself?-Yes.
16,263. You had sent it to her before you went away?-Yes.
16,264. Then at that time you had not run up a large account with the agent?-Not very much.
16,265. Had you any account with the agent that year at all?-I don't remember; I don't think it was very much.
16,266. There might have been a little for some articles of outfit, perhaps?-Perhaps there was.
16,267. When you settle at the Custom House, are you ever told by the agent's clerk who goes up to hand [Page 412] you the money, that he expects you down at the shop to settle your account there?-Yes; but I usually go first to the shop and see what my account with the agent there is, and then I pay him immediately afterwards, either at the Custom House or at the shop, as soon as I am paid myself.
16,268. Are you expected to go down and pay your account at once?-Yes.
16,269. Are you ever spoken to about going at once?-No, I have never been told to go at once; but I understand it is my business to pay it at once, as long as I am able to do it.
16,270. Is it expected that the men going on a Greenland voyage are to take their supplies, partly at least, from the agent's shop?-I don't know if it is expected or not. I suppose it is expected, but a man may buy his outfit wherever he pleases.
16,271. Did you ever know a man buying it elsewhere than at the agent's shop?-I have bought some articles elsewhere myself.
16,272. Did you ever buy the whole of your articles anywhere else?-Yes.
16,273. Why did you buy any of them elsewhere?-I was not very particular about where I went. If I had money in my hand I went to any place that was most suitable, or where I could get the most suitable articles.
16,274. Did you often do that?-Not often. I more frequently had an account with the agent.
16,275. When you go to make an engagement in the agent's shop for a voyage, are you sometimes asked if you want anything?-No, I am never asked that, unless if I happen to be running an account he may ask if have got all my things, or something like that.
16,276. Does he not usually ask you that?-I cannot say that he does.
16,277. Is there any difficulty nowadays in getting berths in Greenland ships?-Sometimes there is because there are not many ships that come here.
16,278. Are there more men than berths?-Sometimes that is the case.
16,279. When that is the case, what kind of men have the best chance of being engaged?-I don't know.
16,280. Do you think a man who owes an account to the agent, or who is to keep an account with him, has a better chance than another?-I cannot say that he has.
16,281. Do you think the men have that impression?-I believe they do have that impression; but whether it is a right impression or not I cannot say.
16,282. Have you learned from some of the men themselves that such an impression exists?-No, not from the men themselves.
16,283. Then how do you know that they think so?-I have no real knowledge on the subject; only I know that is said to be the case.
16,284. Who says it?-I cannot mention any particular person that I have heard it from. Perhaps when they see a man engaged for a ship, when they do not have a chance themselves, they may think there is some cause like that to account for it.
16,285. Then some of the men do think that they have a better chance of a berth if they have an account with the agent?-I have merely heard that said; I have no experience of it myself.
16,286. Do you think that if you were not to come down from the Custom House at once and pay your account in the agent's shop, you would have a chance of getting a berth from that agent next year?-I believe I would.
16,287. Why do you think so?-Because, if I was due the agent an account, he might perhaps think that I would make a better voyage in another year, and that I might then be more able to pay him.
16,288. But do you think he would have anything to do with you if you refused to pay your account to him at the settlement in November: do you think in that case that you would have a chance of getting another engagement from him in February or March?-I suppose I would have a chance.
16,289. Would he not say that he would have nothing more to do you, because you had not paid your previous account?-No; I never saw that done.
16,290. Is that because you have always paid your account in proper time?-I don't know; but I always have paid my account when I could.
16,291. Did you ever know of any man who did not pay his account to the agent as soon as he got his money at the Custom House?-No, I never knew of any man who did not do that.
16,292. Did you ever hear that spoken of?-No; I never heard about anything of that kind.
16,293. Did you never hear the men talk among themselves about that matter?-No.
16,294. What do you think would happen if you did not go down at once to the agent's shop and pay your account whenever you got your money at the Custom House?-So far as I know, I don't think anything would happen at all.
16,295. Do you think the agent would look after you?-I have been due things myself for about a year but he never looked after me. That was before I was paid at the Custom House.
16,296. Then you had settled with the agent in office on that occasion?-Yes; and left a balance due.
16,297. Were you due that balance to the agent for twelve months afterwards?-Yes.
16,298. Did the same agent get you a berth in a Greenland ship in the following year?-No; I left that agent and went to another for that year.
16,299. Did that other agent take the balance over and become responsible for it?-Yes; it was brought into the next agent's books.
16,300. Who was the agent who took over your debt in that way?-I was once due an account in that way to Mr. George Reid Tait, and I afterwards found it in Mr. Leask's books.
16,301. Did you not know of that until you found it in Mr. Leask's books at settlement?-I knew I was due the account.
16,302 You knew you were due it to Mr. Tait but did you know that it had been transferred to Mr. Leask until you found it in the book?-No; I did not know that until then.
16,303. Were you surprised to find it charged in Mr. Leask's books against you?-No; I was not surprised at all.
16,304. Did you expect to find it there?-No, not exactly; but of course I would have paid it if I had been able.
16,305. Did that happen to you more than once?-No; only once, to my recollection, in that way.
16,306. Did it ever happen to you in any other way-It happened once in this way: that I supposed I was due an account to Mr. Leask in one year, and I found the account standing in his books against me next year.
16,307. Did you change your agent that year?-No.
16,308. How long is it since your account with Mr. Tait was transferred to Mr. Leask?-I cannot say exactly, but I think it will be more than twelve years ago.
16,309. Have you never had a balance against you since at settlement?-No.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ROSS GEORGESON, examined.
16,310. Are you a seaman living at Scalloway?-Yes; I am skipper of a Faroe smack.
16,311. In whose employment have you been lately?-Mr. Leask's.
16,312. For how many years have you gone to the Faroe fishing?- I have gone every year for about fifteen or sixteen years.
16,313. Are you now serving your time in the Naval Reserve?- Yes.
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16,314. Have you always had an account in the books of Mr. Leask when you were engaged in his smacks?-Yes.
16,315. Did you settle that account with him every year?-Yes.
16,316. Have you been employed in his service at any other part of the year, except when you went to the Faroe fishing?-No; but lately I have gone a voyage or two to the south with fish in winter.
16,317. Do your family get their supplies from Mr. Leask's shop in Lerwick?-Yes.
16,318. All the year round?-No; only when it is convenient. For instance, when we go round to Scalloway with the vessel, we generally take a good stock of things with us, which helps us through part of the season.
16,319. Do you not take goods across the country to Scalloway sometimes when any of your family happen to be in Lerwick?- Only very little.
16,320. Do you settle about December or January every year?- Generally about the 1st of December.
16,321. Do you get the balance which is due to you then in cash?-Yes.
16,322. Do you sometimes get advances in money during the course of the year?-Yes; I get what I require.
16,323. How much do you generally get in money before the settlement?-Generally between summer and winter I may run an account of about £30 or £40 for myself and the vessel.
16,324. But what do you get in your private account?-Just what money I require, and what I ask. I may perhaps ask £4 or £5 or £6 at a time, just as I need it.
16,325. Is it for any particular purpose that you ask for so much?- No; there is no particular purpose ever mentioned.
16,326. Do you think you would get all the money that was due to you at any time before settlement if you asked for it?-I have no doubt of that; but there is generally an account run.
16,327. Do you take out goods in the course of the year when you want them?-Yes, when it is convenient to get them to Scalloway.
16,328. Suppose you did not take out any goods at all, but wanted to get the whole in cash, do you suppose you would get that?- Yes.
16,329. Have you ever asked for it all in cash?-No; because I leave my money along with Mr. Leask.
16,330. What do you mean by leaving your money along with him?-I get the same interest for my money when it is in his hands as I would get from the bank.
16,331. Then when you settle you don't always draw the whole balance that is due to you?-No.
16,332. You leave it in Mr. Leask's hands, and get interest allowed to you for it in your next account?-Yes.
16,333. Did you always have an account with him?-Yes.
16,334. Do all the men in the smacks keep accounts with the owner of the smack for their supplies?-Yes, so far as I know.
16,335. Do they all get money when they ask for it?-I never heard anything else. I never heard any man say that he had asked for money and did not get it.
16,336 Do they generally ask for much money?-I don't know. I suppose every man asks for what he requires, or according to what he has to get.
16,337. Are they not expected to get their supplies at the merchant's shop?-It is just as they like.
16,338. Of course it is just as they like, but are they not expected to get a part of their supplies in the shop?-I suppose so. They always do so.
16,339. Are there as many men to be had for the Faroe fishing as are wanted to man the smacks?-Yes. There has been no scarcity in time past.
16,340. Do you know of any men who go to the Faroe fishing and draw money from the owner in the course of the season for the support of their families, and who do not get any supplies at all?- No. , They generally take their goods for the voyage from the merchant, whether they take anything else or not; but I never knew any men who did not take some supplies from him.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ARTHUR MOFFAT, examined.
16,341. Are you a seaman living at Lochside, Lerwick?-Yes.
16,342. Are you now serving in the Naval Reserve?- Yes.
16,343. Where have you been employed?-I have been going to the seal and whale fishing.
16,344. Have you ever been at Faroe or at the ling fishing?-No.
16,345. What agents have you engaged with for the Greenland voyage?-I have been out for the whole of them.
16,346. Did you always keep an account for supplies with the agent who engaged you?-Yes.
16,347. Was that settled at his office before 1867?-Yes.
16,348. Since that year it has been settled at the Custom House?- Yes.
16,349. Do you always go straight down from the Custom House to the agent's office and pay your account?-Yes.
16,350. Are you expected to go straight down?-I don't know, but I think it my duty to do so.
16,351. Are you expected to take some of your supplies from the agent who engages you?-We just take them as we require them.
16,352. But if you require supplies or an outfit, are you expected to take them from the agent who engages you?-Yes, we can do nothing else but take them from him; we cannot go to a strange shop for them, because they would not give them to us.
16,353. Why would they not give you credit at it strange shop?- Because they do no business with us, and perhaps they would not know us.
16,354. Would you not have your first month's pay in advance with which to buy what you wanted?-Not very often, because I don't take it out in that way.
16,355 But you could it?-Yes.
16,356. And if you had it you could get what you wanted at another shop?-Yes.
16,357. When you go in to engage with an agent does he, or do his shop-people, ask you if you want anything?-No.
16,358. Do you generally get an advance note?-Yes, we get it, but we leave it with the agent; at least I do.
16,359. Why do you leave it with the agent?-Because I find the half-pay too little for the support of my wife and family during my absence. They require more supplies than that, and they get them out of the agent's shop.
16,360. Has that been your practice for a long time?-It has.
16,361. Have you always engaged with the same agent for a number of years back?-Yes, I have engaged with Mr. Leask for some time.
16,362. Have you always got your supplies at his shop?-Yes.
16,363. You said you could not get credit anywhere else: is that because Mr. Leask has the command of the money you are to get?-No, it is not that, because we get the money if we want it.
16,364. You could get the money if you wanted it on an allotment note, but not otherwise?-Yes.
16,3 65. Do you say that you could get a larger amount of supplies at Mr. Leask's shop than your allotment note would pay for if you had it?-I do.