Mr.Paine. I don't remember '61. I do remember pictures now, we have pictures showing us outside so that was balmy weather.
Mr.Liebeler. So that in the period that you have been living in Texas you have gone to Los Angeles on two different occasions and visited your father there and he has been in Irving on two different occasions, is that correct?
Mr.Paine. That seems, I think, to be right.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you go on and tell us what you know about your father's political activities?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Well, we would have to go back to a little to when I lived in New York as a school student in school, grammar school and high school. There I would see him very infrequently considering our close proximity and the fact that I found him stimulating and I liked him.
He took me to a few, one or possibly two, Communist meetings at my considerable insistence. He didn't urge this upon me. I wanted to go, to get the feeling of the—I asked him what he did or something and I wanted to know all this, my mother said he was on the radical left.
So, I went to a few of those meetings, and didn't—was unfamiliar with the issues and questions they were debating. I got the feeling, I came away withthe impression, that these people, there were three Communist groups apparently in New York at the time, and they were most up in arms with each other, orthere——
Mr.Dulles. Excuse me, how old were you at this time approximately?
Mr.Paine. This was somewhere from eighth grade to high school.
Mr.Dulles. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. What year about, what time span would that be?
Mr.Paine. Well 1947, I think I got out of high school, so it is 1943 to 1947.
Then I didn't—I got the flavor of those meetings. I found sort of an intense people, people of high intensity. I didn't feel very much at home there, and I guess I didn't go to any more.
Mr.Dulles. Did they try to recruit you at all or to get you to be a member or attend or join meetings?
Mr.Paine. No; they were glad to meet Lyman's son. That is he would introduce me to friends or people he knew there, and I liked—I had some favorable attitudes to the zeal of the group or the zeal of the assembled people.
They were fully committed to what they believed in. I had my own dreams of how I would like to see society at the time and it wasn't along the same line.
So, I felt happy to have them there and I would go my course and just—I didn't feel opposed to them; neither did I feel drawn to them, although I tried to read some of Das Kapital at that time and Communist manifesto.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever join any of these organizations?
Mr.Paine. Well, I didn't know of any organization as such.
I went to this meeting in downtown New York. I didn't know—so therefore I knew three groups. Maybe it was the Socialist group and the Stalinist group and I think the group that Lyman was in, I don't know, maybe he was a Socialist.
Mr.Liebeler. Which was the second group, was it the Stalinist?
Mr.Paine. I mentioned the Stalinist, Dubinsky, David Dubinsky, was the only name I remember aside from Stalin, was a name I remember there, and I can't now remember whose side who was on.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any clear recollection of what particular group your father was associated with?
Mr.Paine. No; I never had—never knew what the name of any group he might be associated with.
Now, I suppose it was Trotsky. Trotskyite was a different distinct group at that time. They probably wouldn't be mentioning their own group. They would be mentioning their opponent's group.
Mr.Liebeler. Subsequent to your attendance at the meetings of these groups at the time you have spoken of did you ever attend any other meetings of similar groups either in New York or any other place?
Mr.Paine. I can't remember anything of a similar nature.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know of your father ever using any aliases?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't.
Mr.Liebeler. You are not familiar with the name Thomas L. Brown or Lyman Pierce?
Mr.Paine. No.
Mr.Liebeler. When wasthe——
Mr.Paine. I was aware that my father didn't talk readily about his affairs. When we met we would talk at great length and we always do talk. There is an amazing similarity in our natures. I have almost thought there was one person trying to live in two bodies.
But we have always been completely absorbed in subjects that were closer to my—without going into what he was doing day to day or what he was—I was aware that I didn't know, and I didn't pry or probe as to what he might be doing there.
Mr.Liebeler. So far as you know, however, he was actively participating in the meetings and activities of this group?
Mr.Paine. Oh, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Am I correct in understanding that your father and mother were divorced when you were about 4 years old?
Mr.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Liebeler. You were at that time living in New York City?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Subsequently you and your mother.
Mr.Paine. She got a divorce in Reno, Nev., she had a house in Virginia City.
TheChairman. In New York you were living with your father or mother?
Mr.Paine. They lived together in New York. Then there was a year, a part of a year, we moved to Philadelphia. They may have separated and he tried to come back or something like that, and then we went to Reno, Nev.
Mr.Liebeler. During the time you lived in Philadelphia, was your father living with the family?
Mr.Paine. I think he was there part time. I don't remember that for sure. We had two houses there. One I think I remember him slightly and the other one I don't.
Mr.Liebeler. Your father was not present during the time that you stayed in Nevada?
Mr.Paine. No; he was not.
Mr.Liebeler. You and your brother stayed in Nevada with your mother?
Mr.Paine. And a housekeeper also.
Mr.Liebeler. After you left Nevada where did you live?
Mr.Paine. We went over to California. Santa Barbara.
Mr.Liebeler. Who lived there at that time with you?
Mr.Paine. A friend of hers, Kathleen, now she was originally Kathleen Schroeder, a sister of my uncle, now Kathleen Forbes, and a distant cousin of my mother's, and I think my grandfather, grandparents, would come out occasionally.
Mr.Liebeler. Was your father present at that time?
Mr.Paine. No; he was not.
Mr.Liebeler. He wasn't there at any time during your stay in Santa Barbara?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember that. I am not certain of it.
Mr.Liebeler. How long did you live in Santa Barbara, Calif.?
Mr.Paine. Each year my grandfather paid our way back across the country to Naushon Island in Massachusetts. We lived there 3 years.
Mr.Liebeler. Where did you go after that?
Mr.Paine. Cambridge, Mass.
Mr.Liebeler. How long were you there?
Mr.Paine. From the third to the sixth grade.
Mr.Liebeler. With whom did you live?
Mr.Paine. With my mother on Fairweather Street.
TheChairman. Is this of particular importance to the investigation, it is very lengthy, and I don't know particularly what it bears upon. If it is in relation with his father, let's get at that and get it over with, but I don't see what this man's history from the time he was born—I don't see how it bears on it. It just takes altogether too much time for an extraneous purpose, it seems to me. Let's get on with the thing.
Mr.Liebeler. It bears on the point only on what connection he has with his father.
Mr.Paine. Let me go to that. I have seen him on a few times, once a year would be a frequent—we felt great affinity in our bent, not in the actual application of the way we would like to do things but in a concern for the value of people. I know very little about what he does, and he has not tried to proselytize me, and he has not volunteered information about what he did.
I think a certain change has come over him since. For many years or years in college or something I thought he was still interested in his revolutionary groups and that was a pity because that wasn't going to happen, and it was to be a dead end, a blind, he would come to the end of his life and his cause had fizzled out.
When I went out to California more recently, the last time we were talking about the civil rights movement and, shall we say, the revolution occurring in this country spearheaded by the Negroes' demand for dignity, that was a subject that completely absorbed the weekend and there were various Negroes who came around the country, who happened to pass through at that time.
You probably might be interested in regard to Cuba. I was surprised sometimein the conversation someone there had spoken favorably of the revolution in Cuba. This was a surprise to me, I didn't realize that this was part of the—was the present thrill, shall we say. I don't know whether that applied to Lyman also or whether—I think he went along with that. We didn't get around to arguing on that point. I only mention that in passing. That was about the full extent of it.
She mentioned Cuba in this favorable way, and it was a subject Ididn't——
Mr.Dulles. Who was this she?
Mr.Paine. It was Grace somebody, I have forgotten.
Mr.Dulles. One of the people present in these conversations?
Mr.Paine. Yes. So that was my only knowledge that he was, or the people around him were, interested in Cuba, and that is the only thing I can see has any bearing in your interest here.
Mr.Liebeler. To what extent would you say that your father has influenced your own political views and attitudes?
Mr.Paine. I would have guessed it was almost negligible. I was aware that sometime in the beginning of college or something I used the language of the masses or I used jargon which I recognized, came to perceive was of quite leftist nature, and I think that at the time I used to get The Nation, that was in high school. I probably picked it up more from the magazines and things of that sort than from him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever discuss your father with Lee Oswald?
Mr.Paine. On a phone call shortly after the assassination he called and thought it was outrageous to be pinning Lee Oswald who was a scapegoat, an ideal person to hang the blame on.
Mr.Liebeler. Your father called you?
Mr.Paine. Yes; he called me, yes. He didn't suppose it was true, I told him I thought it probably was true. And I told him to keep his shirt on.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember anything else about that conversation?
Mr.Paine. No. It was chiefly both he and Freddy, his wife, had to be calmed down. They thought it was a steamrollered job of injustice or something. And I didn't think their admonitions were—I think not to say anything, not to join the hubbub or jump on the things I said or I took it to be things I said would be distorted and blown up and added to the hullabaloo to lynch Lee.
RepresentativeFord. Did they infer or imply that the allegations or accusations against Oswald bore the semblance of a lynching? And I use lynching in the broad sense.
Mr.Paine. They did not use lynching at all. I added that. They thought hewas——
RepresentativeFord. Being railroaded?
Mr.Paine. No; he said that no one, no member of the Friends of Cuba would want to assassinate the President. That was a crazy idea.
RepresentativeFord. You said that was a crazy idea?
Mr.Paine. No; he said that. Therefore, he concluded, and this was the same, similar to my feeling, that I first didn't think Oswald had done it because I didn't see how it fitted in, how it helped his favorite ideals.
And Lyman then said the same thing. Therefore, including himself, Lyman, that Lee couldn't have done it, and that this must be—Lee was the ideal person to hang it on.
RepresentativeFord. How soon was this phone call after the assassination?
Mr.Paine. I think it was—he did not know, I think, that we had Marina staying with us, but he was one of the first to connect, guess that it was us. He called and asked us, "Is this you?"
RepresentativeFord. "Is this you?" What? I don't quite understand the context here.
Mr.Paine. He heard it on the news and he heard Mrs. Paine, and Marina had been staying with a Mrs. Paine and he called to ask, "Are you the Paines?"
Mr.Liebeler. Had you discussed Lee Oswald with your father prior to this time?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't think I mentioned him.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether your father knew Lee Oswald?
Mr.Paine. No; I do not know. Or I gather since he had such a funny idea of him over the phone.
Mr.Liebeler. To the best of your judgment the only way your father heard of Lee Oswald, connected Lee Oswald to you, was through a news broadcast that he had heard connecting Oswald with somebody named Paine?
Mr.Paine. Or Marina had stayed with the Paines.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever discuss your father with Lee Oswald?
Mr.Paine. No; I did not.
Mr.Liebeler. And Oswald never asked you about your father in any way or did he indicate that he knew of your father?
Mr.Paine. No; he did not. I think Ruth came closer to revealing that my father had—you will have to ask her about that question. I did not mention my father to Lee.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you meet Lee Oswald?
Mr.Paine. I met him sometime in the spring of 1963.
Mr.Dulles. This is Oswald?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; Lee Oswald.
Mr.Paine. We were invited to a party, Ruth and I were invited to a party, given by Everett Glover. I had a cold and wasn't able to go. Ruth went at that time and subsequently went once or twice to see Marina. And she invited Marina and Lee to our house for dinner, and here the date that comes to mind is April 10.
Mr.Dulles. Where was Marina staying at this time?
Mr.Paine. Berry Street.
Mr.Dulles. Berry Street in Dallas.
Mr.Liebeler. Berry Street or would it be Neely Street?
Mr.Paine. Neely Street. So this was the first time I saw them. I had to go over, he didn't drive a car and I had to go over, and pick him up in my car and bring him back to the house. So I went over to Neely Street and saw them. Marina took about half an hour to pack all the things for Junie. Meanwhile I was talking to Lee at their house there.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us about that conversation?
Mr.Paine. I asked him what he was doing, his job, and he showed me a picture on the wall, which was a piece of newspaper, I think—that is beside the point. I asked him about Russia, what he likedabout——
Mr.Dulles. Could we get that picture?
Mr.Paine. I think it was beside the point. It was a piece of newspaper showing a fashion ad, I think. I think his jobwas——
Mr.Dulles. Nothing to do with politics at all, to do with his job. I see.
Mr.Paine. I asked him what he thought. I wanted to know why he had gone to Russia and why he had then come back. He had told me he had become a Marxist in this country without ever having met a Communist, by reading books and then he got to Russia,and——
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you why he went to Russia?
Mr.Paine. He said he wanted to go to Russia. He had chosen to go to Russia.
Mr.Liebeler. He didn't elaborate on it?
Mr.Paine. No; I gathered he had had an interest in going to Russia for a number of years prior to the time he got there and decided that that was the paradise of the world and through fortunate relations between this country and Russia at the time, I would have to remember history to know whether that was a warm, a friendly time or not, but he indicated both his going and his coming were fortunate times in history or something that made it possible for him to do these.
Mr.Dulles. Fortunate times?
Mr.Paine. Fortunate times, this was sort of an accident in history. This is what I gathered from his conversation.
RepresentativeFord. Fortunate that he could leave at the time and fortunate that he could come back.
Mr.Paine. Fortunate that he could be accepted to emigrate to Russia. He told me that he had—so he went to Russia and he tried to surrender his passport to the Russians but the State Department would not give it to him, or the consulin Moscow, which was—which proved to be fortunate because then a few years later when he wanted to return it would not have been possible, except if they still had his passport. He had not legally surrendered it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate that was a fortunate circumstance?
Mr.Paine. I think he smiled, he indicated to me he genuinely had wanted to become a Russian citizen and to surrender it. He wanted to renounce his American citizenship. He tried to, and the Russians, he told me, had accepted his bona fide intentions and tried to get the passport away from the Americans.
RepresentativeFord. Was the failure to get his passport a determining factor in their not accepting his desires?
Mr.Paine. No. He told me that they did accept his desires despite his inability to get the passport and give it to them.
RepresentativeFord. Despite his inability?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. "They" being the Russians?
Mr.Paine. Yes; they being the Russians and they issued to him, he told me, the standard kind of temporary citizenship paper which is given to all emigres to Russia, and there aresome——
Mr.Dulles. Was it citizenship paper he said or something else, citizenship paper?
Mr.Paine. Now, I suppose there was a regular paper and everybody would know of it.
Mr.Dulles. Domicile paper or something allowing domicile.
Mr.Paine. I had thought, my impression was, that it was kind of probationary citizenship. It is a kind of paper issued for a year to somebody who is seeking citizenship. That was my impression at the time.
Mr.Dulles. Could it have been a probationary residence permit or something of that sort. He said citizenship, did he?
Mr.Paine. That was my impression. That it was the commencement of a citizenship paper.
Mr.Dulles. Did he tell you about any difficulties he had in getting permission to stay on in Russia?
Mr.Paine. Well, this was a question. I asked him how was it they so readily accepted—you know other Americans have a hard time staying more than 30 days there, "How was it that you were so readily accepted into the bosom of Soviet Society?" And to that he answered, "well, it was just a fortunate mood between the countries or something to that effect," is something that I gathered.
I didn't remember the history and I thought it would be—he smiled a little bit. I can't remember whether he smiled a little bit when I then asked him how did he manage to get out, at one time, but at one time I do remember he smiled as though there were a story there, and I didn't—I supposed the story would be too intricate, not interesting enough to try to get him to relate it.
Mr.Liebeler. You did not ask him to relate the story?
Mr.Paine. No; I did not.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever learn the circumstances under which he left Russia, from him?
Mr.Paine. As he told me at that same half hour before we came back to our house on FifthStreet,——
Mr.Dulles. Was this the first time you had seen him?
Mr.Paine. All this happened in the first half hour.
Mr.Dulles. The first time you had ever seen him?
Mr.Paine. The first time I had seen him or at least that first night.
He told me he had decided, that he had wanted, to come back to this country and it was through the fortunate circumstance of the Embassy still having his passport which was a legal loophole that made it legally possible, and I asked him—at sometime I thought this was rather nice that the State Department, I think this was a little later in the same evening, the State Department had forewarned him, had granted him money also, to come back.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you that?
Mr.Paine. He told me that and I was rather proud of the State Department for its generous behavior toward such a wayward citizen. He actually hadspoken—I had mentioned this because he had spoken abusively of the American Government.
Mr.Liebeler. At this time, during the first meeting?
Mr.Paine. Not just the American Government—yes; at this same meeting. He had spoken with abuse of, sort of resentment that they didn't let him have his passport and I thought, well now, that was just kind of a nice trick, by having a consular official there that he knew, this man wanted to change his mind, this little legal dodge of not wanting to give him his passport which I think is illegal if the man wants it, it would be the thing to permit him to come back.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you point that out to Lee Oswald?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr.Liebeler. What did he say?
Mr.Paine. I don't think he responded to it.
Mr.Dulles. He talked about surrendering the passport rather than surrendering citizenship, did he?
Mr.Paine. The two were synonymous, I thought, that if you surrendered your passport and with the intention of adopting another one that was renouncing American citizenship.
Mr.Dulles. I see.
Mr.Paine. Which he wanted, he told me he wanted to renounce his American citizenship. He said that quite flatly.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember anything else about this conversation concerning his trip back and his attitude toward the State Department and the United States that he discussed during this first meeting?
Mr.Paine. I don't believe so. I think I have got it a little confused with Marguerite Oswald what she said at the assassination, at the time of the night of the 22d. She was resentful of the State Department, thinking it had been remiss in taking so long in getting him back. I don't remember whether he had voiced the same—I am confused, I don't know whether it was he or she who had voiced this resentment. I thought to the contrary it was very generous.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember whether or not Oswald himself voiced resentment against the Government of the United States in this connection?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I do remember that. That was the thing that prompted me to say that it was actually rather nice of them to have been illegal just forthis——
Mr.Dulles. I didn't catch the last. Nice of them to have been what?
Mr.Paine. I thought it probably was illegal of the embassy official not to hand over his passport when he demanded it in order to surrender it to the Soviet Union.
Mr.Liebeler. But you don't remember Oswald responding to that when you made that answer to him?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember his response.
TheChairman. You also said you thought it was rather nice of the State Department to do that in order to make it possible for him to return if he wanted to?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I said both of these things. They had given him money. They had held, a peccadillo to hold, the passport out of the knowledge that he might, such people might, want to return, change their mind, and then to provide him money moreover to come back, this all seemed to me rather nice even though it had taken 2 more months than when he originally wanted to come back.
I had said, this in response to his, some kind of expression on his part of criticism of the State Department or the foreign embassy or whatever it is.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember why he was critical? Was he critical because they had not given him his passport when he went to Russia or was he critical because in his opinion they had taken so long to arrange his return?
Mr.Paine. I think he was critical when he first mentioned it, he seemed to have the critical attitude—some of this critical attitude may have been facial expressions or way of speaking, which was somewhat common with him. Therefore, I can't remember for sure whether it was in the words or in his attitude.He was critical, though, certainly of the first, of the State Department not relinquishing his passport.
Mr.Dulles. Was he critical at this latter time?
Mr.Paine. He was critical of that as he was relating to his desire to go to the Soviet Union. He was relating the story to me, and then he had spoken of the State Department as though they were a bunch of bastards, wouldn't—or illegal or something. Anyway, he was unfavorable.
Mr.Dulles. But did you indicate he was rather glad that they had later taken this position so that he could get his passport back or did I misunderstand you on that?
Mr.Paine. Well, I pointed out to him that or said "it was kind of fortunate that they had held your passport," and I think he nodded his assent to that.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you why he decided to return to the United States from Russia?
Mr.Paine. Most of this conversation, I think, was when we had first met and I wasn't sure whether he was speaking derogatively of the Soviet Union in order to win my good graces or thinking he could win my friendship that way.
However, he spoke more with disfavor of the Soviet Union during this first meeting than was quite comprehensible to someone who had gone there.
Mr.Liebeler. What did he say?
Mr.Paine. But chiefly what he said was that he didn't have choice of where he could live, you were assigned, he spoke with a certain amount of derision, scorn of the fact that you were assigned jobs, and he thought the food was boring, I think, to use his word. He had mentioned that he liked to—he had gone hunting with some friends, that was the only thing he mentioned about the Soviet Union in which I sensed that he had been with people except for also mentioning that he had been the center of interest as an American who couldn't drive a car.
But apparently he had relished going hunting. He had also said with resentment, a Soviet citizen could not own a rifle. They could own shotguns but not a rifle, and that you could shoot a rifle only by joining a rifle club which he said was a paramilitary organization.
Again, this was with a degree of scorn in his voice or his attitude. I had assumed that he at least tried the paramilitary organization, the rifle club, so he could speak with such scorn, with knowledge of what he was speaking about.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you that he had joined an organization in which he was permitted to shoot a rifle?
Mr.Paine. No; he did not. I don't know that for a fact. I had assumed from his conversation that he had tried it but I gather that he did not like this organization.
Mr.Dulles. Did he say anything about having to leave the rifle at the club, that you couldn't take the rifle away from the club, or anything of that kind?
Mr.Paine. I assume that was true. He didn't mention it, he mentioned that a Soviet citizen could not possess a rifle.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he speak of any training that he might have received in connection with either a rifle or a shotgun while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Paine. No; he didn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate to you the degree of facility with which he used either of these weapons while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Paine. No; he did not.
Mr.Liebeler. He—is there anything else he told you about this hunting club or this rifle or shotgun that you can remember now?
Mr.Paine. No; I am not particularly interested in rifles and hunting so that I didn't—it was an ideal opportunity—I think he did love hunting so I think it would have been an ideal way to reach him in a somewhat human way.
Mr.Dulles. You got no idea of how much time he was at the rifle club or what? Did it seem to be a frequent occupation?
Mr.Paine. No; I can't say I had any fruitful idea of whether he was a member of it. I assumed he was a member of it. He didn't say he was a member of it. I assumed he spoke with authority saying it was a paramilitary organizationand somehow conveying the idea that he didn't like that aspect of it and, therefore, I assumed he didn't like it. He spoke only with pleasure of his hunting trip. He mentioned a hunting trip, I don't think he mentioned them in plural, which he had taken with some friends.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember any more details about that hunting trip?
Mr.Paine. We talked, this was within the first half hour, the talk was very brief.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever mention to you this hunting trip or anything relating to a rifle or shotgun in the Soviet Union at any later time?
Mr.Paine. No; I didn't know what time he was referring to.
Mr.Liebeler. I mean at any other time after the first meeting with you did he refer again to his activities in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Paine. I see.
Mr.Liebeler. In connection with this rifle?
Mr.Paine. No; that subject never came up again.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you at this first meeting about his work in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Paine. I had gathered he worked somewhere in a television factory.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you that?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I can't remember whether it was television, it was electronics of some sort.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you the nature of his work?
Mr.Paine. He did not tell me. I thought to myself that if he was in a very honorable position there he would have mentioned it. So, I thought he was probably just a mechanic of some sort, wiring it together.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you how much he was paid?
Mr.Paine. I can't remember, I think he did but I don't remember what he said.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate that he received any income other than from his work?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't believe he told me anything about that.
Mr.Liebeler. We have been referring primarily here in our questioning to the first meeting that you had with him, but do you remember any subsequent conversation with Oswald about his work, his pay, and his income in the Soviet Union after this first meeting?
Mr.Paine. I think he thought it was too low. He thought the standard of living, he recognized the standard of living was low, and they were restricted therefore in their—just too confined, told where to live. The food was boring and there was nothing to do. I didn't get the idea it was lack of money. He did not say anything about lack of money.
Mr.Dulles. I wonder if we could get for our guidance the approximate number of times he saw Lee Oswald?
Mr.Paine. It was about four times that we had lengthy conversations.
Mr.Dulles. Four times, that is four times prior to the date of the assassination.
Mr.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Dulles. Or that includes all the times?
Mr.Paine. I didn't see him again after the assassination.
Mr.Dulles. You didn't see him after the assassination. Four times prior to the assassination including this one time you have already described?
Mr.Paine. Yes. This is the first meeting before he went to New Orleans and then about three weekends after he cameback——
Mr.Dulles. I think that will be taken up. I just wanted to get in my mind approximately how many times in all you saw him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald at any time indicate to you that he was treated by the Russian authorities in any way different from ordinary Russian citizens who occupied a similar status in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Paine. No; I wasn't aware of that.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you about any special training that he had?
Mr.Paine. No; he did not.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he mention his living accommodations?
Mr.Paine. Well, with some kind of resentment he did, that it was assigned, and I think that is about all he said.
Mr.Dulles. May I ask whether these questions relate to all the four times or just to the first time, are we still on the first?
Mr.Liebeler. Basically on the first time, sir, unless we specify to the contrary.
Mr.Dulles. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell us what else you and Oswald discussed during this first meeting that you had?
Mr.Paine. Unfortunately that first meeting was the clearest one. I was asking him questions, taking his answers. I had hoped when I met this man to have insights into Russia, both meeting him and meeting his wife, and interesting talks about the differences between the Russian system and the American, the western system.
Then I found that he was—some questions, later in the evening, the conversation was translated into Russian also so that Marina could follow along.
Mr.Dulles. You mean after the first half hour when you werepreparing——
Mr.Paine. That is right, when we came back after dinner to our house.
Mr.Dulles. Your house. So this went on?
Mr.Paine. What you have heard now occurred mostly in the first half hour when I was speaking directly to him when I met him.
Mr.Liebeler. Then you returned to Irving to your house and had dinner and had the additional conversation?
Mr.Paine. Yes. Now, in all the subsequent conversations, you are going to get less information in what he said.
Mr.Dulles. In the first part of this meeting you were alone and in the second part of the meeting there were other people there?
Mr.Paine. My wife and Marina was able to join us. At this time Marina was packing things for Junie and I noticed that he was speaking very harshly to her. He was telling her what bag or satchel to take. I gathered from it, of course, it was in Russian, and I thought to myself, here is a little fellow who certainly insists on wearing the pants.
Mr.Dulles. You don't understand Russian yourself?
Mr.Paine. No. So he spoke loudly to her, and didn't rise from his seat. But spoke surprisingly harshly especially in front of a guest.
Mr.Dulles. How did she take this?
Mr.Paine. With a bit of umbrage. She didn't like it. It rankled her.
RepresentativeFord. In other words, this half hour conversation took place in their apartment?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. While she was packing the bags to go to your home?
Mr.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Dulles. Was she packing the bags for some days or wasthis——
Mr.Paine. No; just bottles, diapers, clothing, something.
Mr.Dulles. For a weekend?
Mr.Paine. Just for the evening.
Mr.Dulles. Just for an evening?
Mr.Paine. I don't know why it took so long but it did. I guess they weren't quite ready when I arrived.
Mr.Liebeler. What else did you and Oswald speak about during this evening, do you remember?
Mr.Paine. After supper the conversation was translated into Russian, and I wanted to gather Marina's or get Marina's corroboration of certain things he said about Russia and there we found when she had differing opinions from him that he would not let her, he would slap her down verbally, and not let her express them or say—Ruth told me later, he was calling her a fool, "You don't know anything."
When I encountered this, I actually trusted Marina to know—the questions I was asking, it seemed to me could be better answered by Marina, so I wasn't paying very close attention to what he had said about that.
Mr.Dulles. Could you indicate on what points they seemed to differ or what points that he raised that irritated her or vice versa in their discussion aboutRussia? You said he slapped her down. I was wondering on what kind of points he slapped her down.
Mr.Paine. I have unfortunately tried to remember those points myself wishing, wondering whether hypnosis would bring it out of me as a tape recorder, or something. I was interested to know whether the Russians were happy with their system, whether they felt the presence of the Secret Police, these are questions, I don't remember asking them, these are questions that I would have been interested in.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember any response either from Marina or from Oswald on these points?
Mr.Paine. And I don't remember anything specific here. I just remember that I encountered too many points, where they apparently differed and, therefore, I had in mind I will just wait until she can learn English and we will get it from the horse's mouth.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you speak with Oswald during this first meeting of the circumstances under which he met Marina and married her in Russia?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember when I learned that. I think I learned it from Ruth, who had spoken to Marina on this subject.
Mr.Liebeler. What did you learn?
Mr.Paine. It may have been—I don't remember when it occurred, it may have been after the assassination, I may have read it in the paper or something.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't remember any specific conversations with Oswald on that subject?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Lee Oswald ever speak to you about his experience in the United States Marine Corps?
Mr.Paine. He mentioned that his brother went in the Marine Corps and apparently enjoyed it and he had then, I think he said he had left school early to join it and I gathered, I thought to myself, he is expecting to find the joy his brother found there and he did not find it. He did not like the Marine Corps.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you anything—pardon me.
Mr.Paine. He did not mention that I can recall his exit from the Marine Corps.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever mention the name of Governor Connally in connection with his experiences in the Marines?
Mr.Paine. Not that I remember.
Mr.Dulles. Did he ever mention the President in this or any other conversations?
Mr.Paine. He mentioned the President only once that I can remember specifically; at the ACLU meeting I think.
Mr.Dulles. At the which?
Mr.Paine. At the ACLU meeting I took him to. He had mentioned, he thought President Kennedy was doing quite a good job in civil rights, which was high praise coming from Lee.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any discussion during this first meeting other than the discussion you have already mentioned concerning Oswald's political beliefs?
Mr.Paine. There, of course, I was interested in that subject, found we differed, and then in order to not wrestle with concepts or arguments that were unmanageably large, I tried to bring it down to more specific instances of how he would like to see the world be.
Mr.Liebeler. How did you become aware of the fact that you differed, do you remember?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember him making any bones about it the very first meeting. He told me he had become a Marxist, in his own apartment there, that he had become a Marxist by reading books and never having met a Communist in this country.
And he also then told me with a certain sadness or regret that he couldn't speak about political and economic subjects with his people, and fellows at work.
(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr.Liebeler. You were going to mention specific areas of political discussion that you had with him.
Mr.Paine. One other thing happened in this first half hour, the most fruitful half hour I had ever had with him. He had mentioned his employer. I probably asked him why did he leave this country to go to the Soviet Union, and his supreme theme in this regard is the exploitation of man by man, by which he means one man making a profit out of another man's labor, which is the normal employment situation in this country and to which he found—took, felt great resentment.
He was aware that his employer made—he made more money for his employer than he was paid and specifically he mentioned how his employer of the engraving company goods and chattels that he had, that Oswald didn't have, and with some specific resentment toward this employer, and I thought privately to myself that this resentment must show through if he ever meets his employer, it must sort of show through and that his employer wouldn't find that man very attractive. So this was his guiding theme.
The reason it appears that this country, the system in this country had to go, had to be changed, was because of this supreme immoral way of managing affairs here, the exploitation of man by man which occurs in this country.
We discussed about it occurring in the Soviet Union, the taxation of a man's labor, it occurs there also, and it appeared that only, he seemed to agree or sometimes I had to feed him, this conversation now is a later one, when we were talking about the specifics of exploitation of man by man, he agreed that the only difference was that in the Soviet Union it is a choice which is impersonal.
The person who decides the man's wages and labor does not stand to gain by it whereas in this country the man who decides stands to gain by it.
Mr.Dulles. The man who decides what, to employ the other man?
Mr.Paine. No; what wage to pay him.
Mr.Dulles. What wage to pay him?
Mr.Paine. Or what his return shall be. So that was the only—the most important, by far economic and political almost, let's call it economic doctrine he held.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he translate that economic doctrine to specific policies that he thought should be adopted or specific changes that should be made in the structure of this country?
Mr.Paine. I had never, to my satisfaction, uncovered an area of progressive change that he would advocate. I asked him how did he think this change was going to come about, and he never answered that.
And it seemed to me he was critical of almost everything that occurs in this country. So that he did not—I did not come to—did not know of anything in which he could see a progressive evolutionary change or policies that could be pushed in order to promote his ideals.
RepresentativeFord. Did he react academically, intellectually, violently or in what way did he express these views?
Mr.Paine. Well, he was quite dogmatic. First he wanted to put me in a category. In one of the later talks—when we first met he talked very freely and then I think as we made, in later conversations, I had to do more and more of it—make more and more effort to draw something out of him.
In his later conversations, Ruth found him so bothersome.
Mr.Dulles. What was that word?
Mr.Paine. Bothersome, that she couldn't join the conversations. He would get too angry ortoo——
RepresentativeFord. He resented the probing or the questioning?
Mr.Paine. No; he did not really resent the probing. For instance, take this issue of the exploitation of man by man. When we had boiled it down to this rather fine difference or technical difference that one was done by an impersonal body and one was done personal.
Mr.Dulles. The Soviet being the first and the American being the second?
Mr.Paine. That is correct. That being then the crux of the matter and the reason this is the matter to be changed, if we were to follow the logic of the discussion, many arguments seemed to approach at that kind of a point where itis just logic or reason just didn't seem to work or hold water in this case, and we were left then with the starkness of his statement that this was an unforgivable moral sin, and he called it a moral sin or I questioned him to that effect, and so he thought it was a moral sin and he thought he was moral by adhering to that doctrine.
RepresentativeFord. Did he appear to enjoy these give and takes between you and himself or did he resent them as you proceeded in your discussions?
Mr.Paine. I don't think he resented them. I noticed at times he got quite hot under the collar and I noticed that he was holding his, staying on a steady keel even better than I was, as though he had had considerable practice in sticking to, controlling himself, holding his position and not getting ruffled.
RepresentativeFord. But in this process over a period of time during these four discussions he never deviated from his basic thesis?
Mr.Paine. Yes. Of course, as I said to the others, I don't believe whether you were here, we only had about four talks altogether, and I later came to realize that if he were to have abandoned any one of these or have abandoned that one in particular, that would have undermined his whole philosophy, would humanly itself quite unreasonable to expect a fundamental exchange within an evening, just because of a logical compulsion or logical argument or something.
Mr.Dulles. Did you get the impression that he felt both systems, the American system and the Soviet system involved the exploitation of man by man except it was a different exploiter?
Mr.Paine. I gathered—I was irked because it seemed to me the difference that he accepted as a sufficient difference, the one in the Soviet Union was impersonal, that he was not, in other words—he admitted in the Soviet Union that the tax rate which was a general term then for the amount of money or reward that is not returned of what a man makes, was higher in the Soviet Union. He agreed that that could be true, and didn't seem to be dismayed at that. So I did not find criticism of the Soviet Union on that score.
And in fact he didn't—I didn't discover in what ways he would like to try to change the Soviet Union except he didn't like the restrictions on his freedom there. Neither did he see there was any connection between the restrictions on freedom there and the freedom we have here without control of how the relationship between men would be governed.
Mr.Dulles. Did he ever go into the question of the relative position of labor in the United States from the point of view of its freedom of bargaining and the control of labor in the Soviet Union? Did that ever come up?
Mr.Paine. No. I think, I can't remember whether it was a conversation I had directly with him or immediately after, I was following this idea that here we feel we have quite a different attitude about exploitation. Somebody—he felt exploited and he thought all the working class was exploited, and he also thought they were brainwashed, and he also thought that churches were all alike, all the religious sects were the same and they were all apparatus of the power structure to maintain itself in power.
When I pointed out that our church was financed by people like myself, when I contribute so many dollars to the church, he just shrugged his shoulders. It didn't—his views still stood and it also permitted him, I think, gave him the moral ground to dismiss my arguments because I was here just a product of my environment and I didn't know better and he had the word from the enlightenment, that he knew the truth and therefore I was just spouting the line that was fed to me by the power structure.
Mr.Liebeler. I think you mentioned before that he had wanted to put you in a category, categorize you. Did he indicate to you during that first conversation that he had concluded what category?
Mr.Paine. No; it was over several conversations, I suppose it was the last conversation we had, he couldn't put me in a category and he named about seven or eight categories.
Mr.Liebeler. What were they?
Mr.Paine. I wasn't a Bircher, I wasn't a liberal, a Communist, a Socialist, probably something to do with religion, something like that, atheist.
Mr.Dulles. He didn't say whether you were a Republican or Democrat?
Mr.Paine. I don't believe he was concerned about that.
(Laughter.)
Mr.Paine. No; I am sure he would see no distinction between the two parties.
Mr.Liebeler. So he concluded that he was unable to categorize you?
Mr.Paine. Yes. And I also felt as soon as he had realized that that he could then dismiss me as not something that functions in this world, not one of the forces or the opposing camps he has to contend with.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned that your wife became bothered or Oswald proved bothersome to your wife. Could you tell us in what way Oswald was bothersome to Mrs. Paine?
Mr.Paine. Well, I think one of the most outstanding was in this discussion of religions and I was trying to suggest that religions did embody many of the values of many people and so the conversation was trying to talk about those values quite apart from—I think the Russian, I think Marina's view of religion is quite primitive—never mind Marina. Ruth was bothered by his logic or argument being of no avail. She would be content, you know if he had followed the laws of debate or something, you present evidence and he presents opposite evidence and you try to answer, let one answer the other. But when he couldn't answer he would just state his belief and there he followed the Communist line.
He talked something about feudalism, or the church being more powerful in feudalism than it was today and he tried to explain why that was.
I had then suggested that maybe science was instrumental as an alternative explanation to his explanation but instead of supporting further his view, which just didn't make sense to me, he just restated it. Well, this kind of thing.
Mr.Liebeler. Upset your wife?
Mr.Paine. Yes; you just couldn't enter the conversation deeper.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember any other conversation, you and Oswald had during this first evening that you met?
TheChairman. From the first day, are you going back to?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mr.Paine. I think we probably spoke, I was trying still to find common ground with him, and I think we probably spoke critically of the far right. It even seems to me we may have mentioned Walker.
I had been bothered at the time that Walker had—I guess it doesn't do any good to enter into the matter because I don't remember his response.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you mention Walker's name during the first meeting?
Mr.Paine. My memory is very foggy. But I would take it as—this was an impression.
Mr.Liebeler. Give us your best recollection, and I want to ask you again this was in early April 1963, that you had this conversation, is that correct?
Mr.Paine. It was that first meeting when we had them over to dinner and Ruth can give you the date of that.
Mr.Liebeler. For the benefit of the Commission the record indicates it was about April 2, 1963, that that occurred. Tell us to the best of your recollection what the conversation about General Walker was at that time?
Mr.Paine. I think he had mentioned, a friend of ours had a German wife and she just achieved her citizenship papers, and this had been done at the ceremony and General Walker had been invited to lead the singing, conducted by June Davis who is somewhat old and slipped into error of calling him Judge Walker every once in a while, and it somewhat offended this friend of ours who was aware of why she liked this country, freedoms, and liberties and values that are expressed here. And she was rather sorry that Walker should take it upon himself to define, to these stupid foreigners or these ignorant foreigners, what this country stands for. So I think I mentioned this episode to him.
RepresentativeFord. Him being Oswald?
Mr.Paine. Oswald, and I think he smiled and nodded his assent. I don't think he said any—I don't think he made any important remarks about Walker.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember anything that he said about Walker at all?
Mr.Paine. I think that is the only time, probably the only time we mentioned Walker.
Mr.Dulles. To refresh my recollection, there was about 2 daysor——
Mr.Liebeler. 8 days before.
Mr.Rankin. It was on the 10th.
SenatorCooper. Did he indicate in any way that he knew about General Walker at that time?
Mr.Paine. We seemed to agree at least superficially that in thinking the far right was unfortunate in its thoughts.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he say anything or do anything that would lead you to believe that he planned an attack on General Walker?
Mr.Paine. Absolutely not.
SenatorCooper. Did he indicate in any way that he knew about General Walker's activities and beliefs and position on public affairs?
Mr.Paine. When I went to the ACLU meeting he then got up, stood up and reported what had happened at the meeting of the far right which had occurred at convention hall the day before, U.N. Day, they called it U.S. Day, and I think Walker had spoken then.
From this I gathered that he was doing more or less the same thing—I thought he was, I didn't inquire how he spent his free time but I supposed he was going around to right wing groups being familiarizing himself for whatever his purposes were as I was.
SenatorCooper. Is that prior to the conversation you have talked about?
Mr.Paine. No; this is after this conversation.
SenatorCooper. What?
Mr.Paine. This is after this conversation and I only had this, this was the only concrete evidence I had of how he spent, might have spent some of his time. It happened in the ACLU meeting in late October. I suppose he was familiar with the right-wing groups and activities, and movements. And certainly familiar with Walker; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Confining the Senator's question to the meeting in April, he didn't indicate in any way that he was familiar with Walker's attitude or activities?
Mr.Paine. He was familiar with Walker. He knew who Walker was, there was no doubt about that. We were talking about Walker.
RepresentativeFord. To find some common ground.
Mr.Dulles. He didn't say he knew where Walker lived or anything of that kind. That didn't come up?
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate any understanding to you at that April meeting of Walker's attitude?
Mr.Paine. I don't think he singled out Walker as—I had the impression that he was quite familiar with Walker and probably familiar with the names of various right-wing groups, shall we say, the Christian Science, not the Christian Science, I have forgotten the names of various organizations.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you relate to Oswald this story about Walker speaking at the meeting or the ceremony at which the immigrants were given their citizenship?
Mr.Paine. I believe I did; yes. I believe that is what I said about Walker at the time.
Mr.Liebeler. What was his response to that?
Mr.Paine. And I think he didn't say much. I think he smiled and nodded his head and did that kind of thing. He may have said just a few words.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you take it that Oswald agreed with the views that you expressed?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, after this firstmeeting——
SenatorCooper. May I interrupt you again, I don't want to interrupt your train too much but I think you had said that during this conversation that you did have some discussion about right-wing groups.
Mr.Paine. Yes.
SenatorCooper. And their position and activities, and so forth. In that discussion were individuals named or members assumed to be members of that group?