Mr.Ball. Commission 370, and offer it into evidence and ask leave to submit the original, if it is brought in, when it is brought here by the FBI.
TheChairman. Yes, it may be admitted.
(The manifest referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 370 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr.Ball. This will be 370.
Could we excuse Mr. Whaley now? There are two pieces of evidence to be here and they are not here.
TheChairman. Excuse him and we will take the other witness.
Mr.Ball. We will excuse him and take the other witness.
TheChairman. Mr. Whaley, will you wait outside until we get the other exhibits and we will finish with you very shortly.
Mr. McWatters, would you be seated please.
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
TheChairman. The Commission is meeting today to take further testimony concerning the events surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and it is our understanding that you have some information that would bear on that subject, and that is the reason for our asking you to come here and testify.
Would you raise your right hand to be sworn please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.McWatters. I do.
TheChairman. Would you be seated please, and Mr. Ball will conduct the interrogation.
Mr.Ball. Mr. McWatters.
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What is your business?
Mr.McWatters. I am a bus driver.
Mr.Ball. How long have you been a bus driver?
Mr.McWatters. Let's see, this coming September will be 19 years.
Mr.Ball. Whom do you work for?
Mr.McWatters. The Dallas Transit Company.
Mr.Ball. How long have you worked for the Dallas Transit Company?
Mr.McWatters. It will be 19 years in September, I believe.
Mr.Ball. Where do you live?
Mr.McWatters. 2523 Blyth Drive, Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Ball. On November 22,1963, were you on duty as a driver?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What kind of a bus were you driving?
Mr.McWatters. Well, I was driving a 44-passenger, let's see, it is a 44-passenger city bus made by White, I believe is the maker of the bus.
Mr.Ball. What hours of work were you assigned that day?
Mr.McWatters. Well, I was assigned that day on the particular run from 11:52 until 2:27.
Mr.Ball. What was your run?
Mr.McWatters. Do you mean the name of the run?
Mr.Ball. What course did you take, what part of Dallas did you drive in.
Mr.McWatters. Well, I wentfrom——
Mr.Ball. Describe it generally, you don't need to go into any detail.
Mr.McWatters. I would say from northeast Dallas in the Lakewood addition of Dallas to the Oak Cliff addition of Dallas, which is, would be southwest.
Mr.Ball. Would that be northeast to southwest?
Mr.McWatters. That is right.
Mr.Ball. There is a place near the downtown area of Dallas where you timed your run, wasn't it?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; I have after I get into town, when I get into the downtown part of it, now St. Paul Street is my official time point going in, where they have a supervisor that stays at this checkpoint there, to check all incoming vehicles.
Mr.Ball. You would be coming in from northeast Dallas at that time?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; I am coming in from the Lakewood addition of Dallas, which I came in on. The main thoroughfare is Gaston Avenue.
Mr.Ball. And you got to the intersection of what street and St. Paul when you were timed by your dispatcher?
Mr.McWatters. That is Elm, Elm Street.
Mr.Ball. Elm and St. Paul?
Mr.McWatters. Elm and St. Paul.
Mr.Ball. If you are ahead of time do you stop there until you are assigned a time to get in?
Mr.McWatters. Well, sir; no sir; you don't—a man he has his watch and schedule. If you are ahead of your schedule he will come out and stop you, in other words, and ask you if your watch is right or what is it, you know, the idea of you being there. There is no excuse, you know for a man being ahead of his schedule.
Mr.Ball. If you are ahead of your schedule does he stop you there until you leave?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, that is right.
Mr.Ball. What time are you due, according to your schedule, to leave the corner of St. Paul and Elm?
Mr.McWatters. 12:36.
Mr.Ball. What time did you leave there that day?
Mr.McWatters. Well, I left there that day on time because coming into town that day, I guess everybody done went to, down to, see the parade, I didn't have over four or five passengers coming into downtown.
Mr.Ball. Were you ahead of your schedule?
Mr.McWatters. Well, I stopped about a block before—now, just a block before we get to St. Paul, there is a big theater there, and it has all loading zones, no parking there and a lot of times if we are a minute or two ahead of our schedule when we pull in in front of this theater before we get there in time, in other words, we kill a minute.
Mr.Ball. What did you do this day?
Mr.McWatters. Well, I was a little ahead of my schedule and I killed about a minute, I guess, before I went to cross St. Paul Street.
Mr.Ball. After your dispatcher checked you in what time did you leave that corner of St. Paul and Elm?
Mr.McWatters. Well, the best I can remember I don't recall even picking up a passenger there. I think I discharged one lady passenger there on that, to the best I can recall, because I remember that I had, when I crossed Field Street, I think I had five passengers on my bus.
Mr.Ball. Well then, back to the question, what time did you leave that day, leave Elm and St. Paul?
Mr.McWatters. Well, I would have to say I left there around, in other words, 12:36 because I know I was on good time when I come in there.
Mr.Ball. And you think you left at the time you were supposed to leave?
Mr.McWatters. Well, I am almost positive I did, because, as I say, we generally come in on schedules on good time because from that street on is where we generally—for the next seven or eight blocks—is where we get all of our passengers going through the downtown area.
Mr.Ball. Had you heard any sirens before you got to St. Paul and Elm?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you know if your dispatcher keeps a written record?
Mr.McWatters. The only way he keeps a written record is if you are ahead of your schedule. He has a little pad, and if a man is ahead of his schedule, in other words, he writes, of course, we all go by badge numbers, in other words, he would write your badge number, your bus number, and if you was ahead of schedule he would write how much ahead of schedule you were,and——
Mr.Ball. Do you think he did anything, did he write anything up on you on that day?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir; the guy that we have down there now, if you are ahead of schedule he will come out, in other words, because he stands on the corner all the time, and if you are a minute or two ahead of your schedule he will come out and if nothing else, converse with you for a minute or two to see that you leave it on time and very seldom, I mean, if ever—of course, a report goes in on you, it goes against your record.
Mr.Ball. In other words, if he did make a record it would be by way of a reprimand to you?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. As you went on down Elm you left your post at St. Paul and Elm, did you hear any sirens?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you pick up any passengers?
Mr.McWatters. I picked up within a period of from the time I picked up two or three passengers, I can't recall just exactly which stop. I have after I leave St. Paul Street, I have Ervay Street and Akard Street, and Field Street which would be three stops where I can't recall that, exactly where I discharged or picked up passengers, because I had the few passengers that I had which I came into town with.
Mr.Ball. Well then, do you remember picking up a passenger at a place other than at a bus stop as you went down Elm?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
As I left Field Street, I pulled out into the, in other words, the first lane of traffic and traffic was beginning to back up then; in other words, it was blocked further down the street, and after I pulled out in it for a short distance there I come to a complete stop, and when I did, someone come up and beat on the door of the bus, and that is about even with Griffin Street.
In other words, it is a street that dead ends into Elm Street which there is no bus stop at this street, because I stopped across Field Street in the middle of the intersection and it is just a short distance onto Griffin Street, and that is when someone, a man, came up and knocked on the door of the bus, and I opened the door of the bus and he got on.
Mr.Ball. You were beyond Field and before you got to Griffin?
Mr.McWatters. That is right. It was along about even with Griffin Street before I was stopped in the traffic.
Mr.Ball. And that is about seven or eight blocks from the Texas Book Depository Building, isn't it?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir. It would be seven, I would say that is seven, it would be about seven blocks.
Mr.Ball. From there?
Mr.McWatters. From there, yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did the man look like who knocked on your door and got on your bus?
Mr.McWatters. Well, I didn't pay any particular attention to him. He was to me just dressed in what I would call work clothes, just some type of little old jacket on, and I didn't pay any particular attention to the man when he got on.
Mr.Ball. Paid his fare, did he?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; he just paid his fare and sat down on the second cross seat on the right.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember whether or not you gave him a transfer?
Mr.McWatters. Not when he got on; no, sir.
Mr.Ball. You didn't. Did you ever give him a transfer?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; I gave him one about two blocks from where he got on.
Mr.Ball. Did he ask you for a transfer?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember what he said to you when he asked you for the transfer?
Mr.McWatters. Well, the reason I recall the incident, I had—there was a lady that when I stopped in this traffic, there was a lady who had a suitcase and she said, "I have got to make a 1 o'clock train at Union Station," and she said, "I don't believe—from the looks of this traffic you are going to be held up."
She said, "Would you give me a transfer and I am going to walk on down," which is about from where I was at that time about 7 or 8 blocks to Union Station and she asked me if I would give her a transfer in case I did get through the traffic if I would pick her up on the way.
So, I said, "I sure will." So I gave her a transfer and opened the door and as she was going out the gentleman I had picked up about 2 blocks asked for atransfer and got off at the same place in the middle of the block where the lady did.
Mr.Ball. Where was that near, what intersection?
Mr.McWatters. It was the intersection near Lamar Street, it was near Poydras and Lamar Street. It is a short block, but the main intersection there is Lamar Street.
Mr.Ball. He had been on the bus about 2 blocks?
Mr.McWatters. About 2 blocks; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Up to that time had you heard any sirens?
Mr.McWatters. Not up until—now just about the time that, let's see, that is when I left Griffin, right about the time this gentleman got on the bus the traffic was starting and that was about the first that I can recall of hearing the sirens, but when, in other words, when they started it seemed to me like they was coming from all over town.
Mr.Ball. Did you have a radio in your bus?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear a radio from nearby cars announcing anything about the President's assassination?
Mr.McWatters. Well, there was cars that were stopped alongside of the bus and I think someone raised the window but I couldn't hear. I never did hear anything outside ofthe——
Mr.Ball. Where were you when you first heard the President had been shot?
Mr.McWatters. Well, I was sitting in the bus, there was some gentleman in front of me in a car, and he came back and walked up to the bus and I opened the door and he said, "I have heard over my radio in my car that the President has been—" I believe he used the word—"has been shot."
Mr.Ball. Is that when you were stalled in traffic?
Mr.McWatters. That is right. That is when I was stalled right there.
Mr.Ball. Was that before or after the man got off the bus that asked for the transfer?
Mr.McWatters. That was before. In other words, at that time no one had gotten off the bus.
Mr.Ball. What was your location then, near what street?
Mr.McWatters. Between Poydras and Lamar, in other words, because I stayed stopped there for, I guess oh, 3 or 4 minutes anyway before I made any progress at that one stop right there and that is where the gentleman got off the bus. In fact, I was talking to the man, the man that come out of the car; in other words, he just stepped up in the door of the bus, and was telling me that what he had heard over his radio and that is when the lady who was standing there decided she would walk and when the other gentleman decided he would also get off at that point.
Mr.Ball. At that point.
What course did you take after that?
Mr.McWatters. Well, I still was going west, in other words, in the same direction, going west, in other words, towards Houston Street. In other words, I went there before I changed my course which was about, I would say, three or four blocks.
When I got to Houston Street, in other words, I turned to the left, which would besouth——
Mr.Ball. You went by the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; I turned at the corner of Elm Street and Houston which this book store is on the opposite corner from where I changed course there.
Mr.Ball. Was traffic still heavy along there?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; the traffic was still tied up, but the police, they opened up a lane there, they had so many buses and everything that was tied up, they opened up, moved traffic around that they run quite a few of these buses through there.
In other words, from two blocks on this side of where the incident happened they had, in other words, they was turning all the traffic to the right and to the left, in other words, north and south.
Mr.Ball. You went on down to Houston viaduct then?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, I turned after they finally let—they weren't letting any cars through at that time but they just run a bunch of those buses through there.
Mr.Ball. Is there a bus stop in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir.
Mr.Ball, Where do you stop for that intersection?
Mr.McWatters. Well, you stop, in other words, on this side of the street.
Mr.Ball. You stop on the south side of, the southeast corner of the intersection?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
In other words, like you would be going, direct south towards the Building, the bus stop is on this corner over here on this side.
Mr.Ball. You mean the corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr.McWatters. That is right.
Mr.Ball. Which corner, north, south, east, west?
Mr.McWatters. Well, it would be on the north.
Mr.Ball. North.
Mr.McWatters. On the north.
Mr.Ball. Here is a map and maybe you can show us where the bus stop is. This is Exhibit No. 371.
Mr.McWatters. In other words, this is south, in other words.
Mr.Ball. This is west. You are going west on Elm.
Mr.McWatters. In other words, I am going—right here is where the police had all traffic, they wasn't allowing anything to go any further than Market Street here.
In other words, all the traffic there they were moving was turning either to the right or left, on Market Street. But after they held us up there so long, of course, they run these buses in this right lane here and they did open up and let a bunch of these buses go right on down here to Houston, of course, a lot of them go straight on and a lot of them turn left to Houston Street, a lot of them go under the underpass here.
Mr.Ball. Wait a minute, you turned to the left?
Mr.McWatters. I turned to the left.
Mr.Ball. On Houston?
Mr.McWatters. In other words, my last stop, in other words at this corner right here on Record Street, all buses turning to the left have to stop at this corner right here.
Mr.Ball. At Record and Elm?
Mr.McWatters. At Record and Elm.
Mr.Ball. Do you have a bus stop at Houston and Elm?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; there is a bus stop there for the buses that go on under the underpass.
Mr.Ball. Is there a bus stop for the buses that go south on Houston?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir; all the buses, we have to get in, this is a one-way street and you have to get over in this lane here.
Mr.Ball. By the lane you mean the extreme left lane?
Mr.McWatters. The extreme left lane tomake——
Mr.Ball. To make the left turn south on Houston Street?
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And your last bus stop, as you go west on Elm and before you turn is the northeast corner of Record and Elm?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr.Ball. You went on over to Houston Viaduct into the Oak Cliff section, didn't you?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; to the Oak Cliff section.
Mr.Ball. And there was some conversation occurred on that bus that you told the FBI officers about?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Tell us what that was?
Mr.McWatters. Well, there was a teenage boy, I would say 17 or 18 years of age, who was sitting to my right on the first cross seat and me and him had, we had conversationed a little while we was tied up in the traffic, you know, ofthe fact of we wondered where all, what all the excitement was due to the fact of the sirens and others, and after I turned on Houston Street I said to him and I made the remark, I wonder where the President was shot, and I believe he made the remark that it was probably in the head if he was in a convertible or something to that effect. I don't remember just exactly the way we worded it or what it was, but it was a conversation about the President, in other words, to where he was shot.
In other words, and he made the remark or something, he was probably shot in the head, if he was sitting in a convertible or to that effect. I really don't know just exactly at that time. Just like I say I never thought anything about it.
Mr.Ball. Didn't some lady say something?
Mr.McWatters. Well, yes, sir.
Now, as we got on out on Marsalis, along about it was either Edgemont or Vermont, I believe it was Vermont Street, there was a lady who was fixing to cross the intersection and I stopped and asked her if she was going to catch the bus into town from the opposite direction, and she said that she was and I told her that we was off schedule, that the other bus had done went into town, and I asked her did she care to just ride on to the end of the line and come back and she wouldn't have to stand there and wait, and she was getting on, and I asked her had she heard the news of the President being shot, at the time that was all I knew about it, and she said, "No, what are you—you are just kidding me."
I said, "No, I really am not kidding you." I said, "It is the truth from all the reliable sources that we have come in contact with," and this teenage boy sitting on the side, I said "Well, now, if you think I am kidding you," I said, "Ask this gentleman sitting over here," and he kind of, I don't know whether it was a grinning or smile or whatever expression it was, and she said, "I know you are kidding now, because he laughed or grinned or made some remark to that effect."
And I just told her no it wasn't no kidding matter, but that was part of the conversation that was said at that time.
Mr.Ball. Was this teenage boy—do you know where this teenage boy got on the bus?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; he got on at between, he got on at the stop, in other words, I stopped in front of the Majestic theater which is a block before I get to St. Paul; in other words, it is a middle of the stop, block stop, in other words. We pull in and stop in the center of the block, and my next stop would be St. Paul; in other words, that is where the teenage boy got on.
Mr.Ball. He was on the bus when this man knocked on the door of your bus and got on?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; he was.
Mr.Ball. He was on the bus when the man asked for the transfer and got off?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir. That is right.
Mr.Ball. Were you later called down to the—did the teenage boy ask for any transfer?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, you were called down to the Dallas police department later, weren't you?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What day was it?
Mr.McWatters. It was on the same day, the 22d.
Mr.Ball. 22d. Do you know how they happened to get in touch with you, did you notify them thatyou——
Mr.McWatters. No, sir; I didn't know anything to that effect.
Mr.Ball. Did they come out and get you?
Mr.McWatters. They come outand——
Mr.Ball. What did they ask you?
Mr.McWatters. Well, they stopped me; it was, I would say around 6:15 or somewhere around 6:15 or 6:20 that afternoon.
Mr.Ball. You were still on duty, were you?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Still on your bus?
Mr.McWatters. I was on duty but I was on a different line and a different bus.
Mr.Ball. What did they ask you when they came out?
Mr.McWatters. Well, they stopped me right by the city hall there when I come by there and they wanted me to come in, they wanted to ask me some questions. And I don't know what it was about or anything until I got in there and they told me what happened.
Mr.Ball. What did they tell you?
Mr.McWatters. Well, they told me that they had a transfer that I had issued that was cut for Lamar Street at 1 o'clock, and they wanted to know if I knew anything about it. And I, after I looked at the transfer and my punch, I said yes, that is the transfer I issued because it had my punch mark on it.
Mr.Ball. Did your punch mark have a distinctive mark?
Mr.McWatters. It had a distinctive mark and it is registered, in other words, all the drivers, every driver has a different punch mark.
Mr.Ball. What makes it different?
Mr.McWatters. Well, it is, it would be, the symbol of it or angle, in other words, every one; it is different, in other words.
Mr.Ball. You have a punch there?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; I have the punch right here.
Mr.Ball. Is that the punch that you used?
Mr.McWatters. That is the punch I used.
Mr.Ball. Will you punch a piece of paper and show us?
Mr.McWatters. In other words, that is the type of punch that this one makes right here, in other words.
Mr.Ball. That is a different type of punch than any other driver has?
Mr.McWatters. Any driver, in other words.
Mr.Ball. On any bus in Dallas?
Mr.McWatters. In other words, the superintendent has a list, in other words, it would be just like this and every man has a punch and he has his name, and everything. In other words, if anyone calls in about a transfer or anything, I mean brings one in he can look right down the list by the punch mark and tell whose punch it is, and who it is registered to.
Mr.Ball. Now, the sample of your punch there has been on a piece of paper and we would like to have it marked as 372 at this time.
(The paper referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 372 and received in evidence.)
Mr.Ball. If you punched, made a punch mark, on a transfer, did you designate the time of the punch or the place of the punch?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; I designate the time of the—we have one general transfer point. In other words, Lamar Street is what we call our general transfer point in which all transfers are cut within the quarter of the hour in which you are supposed to be there.
In other words, if you was to arrive there at, say, 12:50 or in that vicinity, you always give the passenger the 15 minutes, in other words, within the hour of the transfer. In other words, is the way they have you to cut your transfers across your cutter.
In other words, it is just a little thing that you raise up and down and you can adjust them, and right here is a book of them in which you can see the time. It is one, in other words, 2:15, 3:30, and 4:45, and we set them in other words, if you wanted at 1:15, 1 o'clock would be across this direction. If you wanted it 1:15 you would cut across this direction or if you wanted it 1:45 you would cut it in this direction. In other words, 1:15, -:30 and -:45. In other words, the 15 minutes is always given at the time, at the general transfer point.
RepresentativeFord. It is 10:25 now. How would you cut it right now?
Mr.McWatters. At 10:25.
RepresentativeFord. Why don't you cut one?
Mr.McWatters. I have a regular cutter, you see; let's see if he can get something that would—in other words, 10:25, I will just cut it, in other words, cutacross there, and cut it, in other words, at 10:30, in other words, it would show at 10:30.
(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
RepresentativeFord. Where do you put your own identification?
Mr.McWatters. On here. Well, if it is in the morning or in the afternoon, here is your a.m., or your p.m. In other words, it is before 12:45, in other words, we consider up to 12:45 a.m., in other words, that is the way they are.
In other words, I would punch it in the a.m. side of it, and if it was in the afternoon, in other words, after that, it would be a p.m. transfer, and whatever line that you are working has the name on it right here.
In other words, at that time that transfer I had punched was punched a p.m. Lakewood, in other words, because I was coming from the Lakewood addition is the way that was punched on the transfer.
Mr.Ball. Well now, do you punch the transfer when the passenger asks for it?
Mr.McWatters. No. No, sir; in other words, when you leave this, you are inbound when you are going into town or when you are going, in other words, out of town, in other words.
I was coming in, in other words, when I got in Lakewood Addition I set my transfers for downtown.
Mr.Ball. For downtown and you set them for what time?
Mr.McWatters. I set them for 1 o'clock.
Mr.Ball. You set them for 1 o'clock?
Mr.McWatters. 1 o'clock.
Mr.Ball. When you reached your end of the run in northeast Dallas then you set your transfers for 1 o'clock, did you?
Mr.McWatters. That is right, when I was coming back in.
Mr.Ball. And when you gave this transfer near Poydras andElm——
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you pull out a transfer that had already been set for 1 o'clock time?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir. In other words, I just reached up on my cutter and just tore off one which is already punched.
Mr.Ball. Then did you punch it again or was it already punched?
Mr.McWatters. It was already punched.
Mr.Ball. And you had punched it at the end of the line?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. So all you had to do is pull the transfer off of the pile of transfers and hand it to the man?
Mr.McWatters. That is correct.
Mr.Ball. And you had anticipated at the end of the line that when you got to about this point it would be a 1 o'clock transfer, is that correct?
Mr.McWatters. Well, that is right.
In other words, there is enough time on it, just like I say, within a quarter of an hour,but——
Mr.Ball. When you got to the police station that day did they show you a transfer?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you tell them about the transfer?
Mr.McWatters. Well, I recognized the transfer as being the transfer that I had issued.
Mr.Ball. How did you recognize it?
Mr.McWatters. By my punch mark on it.
Mr.Ball. And what about the line?
Mr.McWatters. The line?
Mr.Ball. Lakewood.
Mr.McWatters. The Lakewood punch on it, and where it was punched and Lakewood with my punch mark on it.
Mr.Ball. Were you able to identify it any further as a particular transfer you had given to any particular passenger?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir.Only——
Mr.Ball. Go ahead.
Mr.McWatters. I only gave two transfers going through town on that tripand that was at the one stop of where I gave the lady and the gentleman that got off the bus, I issued two transfers. But that was the only two transfers that were issued.
Mr.Ball. Did you tell the police in Dallas that?
Mr.McWatters. I don't remember whether I did or not.
Mr.Ball. But you do remember it now?
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
(At this point Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)
Mr.Ball. All right. Now, what else did you do that day?
Mr.McWatters. Well, let'ssee——
Mr.Ball. Did they show you any prisoner?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; when they stopped me over there and took me into the police department there, like I say, it was around 6:15 or 6:20, they took me down before the lineup there and asked me if I could identify anyone in that lineup as getting on my bus that day.
Mr.Ball. Did they take you down and show you a lineup?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You sat there with police officers and they brought men in there?
Mr.McWatters. They brought four men out. In other words, four men under the lights; in other words, they wasall——
Mr.Ball. All the same age?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir; they were different ages, different sizes and different heights. And they asked me if I could identify any man in particular there, and I told them that I couldn't identify any man in particular, but there was one man there that was about the size of the man. Now, I was referring back, after they done showed me this transfer at that time and I knew which trip, that I went through town on at that time, in other words, on the Lakewood trip and just like I recalled, I only put out two transfers and I told them that there was one man in the lineup was about the size and the height and complexion of a man that got on my bus, but as far as positively identifying the man I could not do it.
Mr.Ball. What was the size and the height and complexion of the man that knocked on the window of this bus?
Mr.McWatters. Well, I would say, just like I told the police, to me he was just a medium-sized man. To me he was, I would say, not, I wouldn't call him—just of average weight, and I would say a light-complected, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr.Ball. When you say "average weight" what do you mean?
Mr.McWatters. I figured just like I saw, the man, he looked like to me the best way I can describe him would be 135 or 140 pounds.
Mr.Ball. What about height?
Mr.McWatters. Well, just like I told them, it looked like to me he would probably be five-seven or five-eight, in that vicinity.
Mr.Ball. Anyway, you were not able to identify any man in the lineup as the passenger?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. As the passenger who had gotten on?
Mr.McWatters. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. You said there was one man who closely resembled in height, weight and color?
Mr.McWatters. That is right.
Mr.Ball. Do you know who that was?
Mr.McWatters. Just like I told them, I didn't know who was who or anything.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever learn who that person was?
Mr.McWatters. Well, I don't know whether that was really the man or not, I don't know.
Mr.Ball. I see.
Now, I have a map here.
(Discussion off the record.)
RepresentativeFord. All right, proceed.
Mr.Ball. You remember you told us about the man that knocked on the window of the door of your bus just before you got to Griffin, wasn't it?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; along about the vicinity of Griffin Street, it comes to.
Mr.Ball. You let him on the bus, and he paid his fare, how much is that fare?
Mr.McWatters. It is 23 cents.
Mr.Ball. 23 cents, and you went about down almost to Poydras.
Mr.McWatters. Almost, between Poydras and Lamar.
Mr.Ball. Between Poydras and Lamar, closer to Lamar than to Poydras?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And a man got on. Was it the same man?
Mr.McWatters. That was the same man who got on the bus that I picked up, in other words.
Mr.Ball. And the man you gave the transfer to?
Mr.McWatters. The man I gave the transfer to when the woman—in other words, when the man that got on Griffin Street there got off at the same place she did.
Mr.Ball. And he was only on the bus about 2 blocks?
Mr.McWatters. Two blocks was the only distance.
Mr.Ball. How long did it take you to go those 2 blocks?
Mr.McWatters. Now, he paid as far as from St. Paul Street. I made—there wasn't any traffic holding me up whatsoever, I come on right down to where I picked the man up there, in other words, about Field, and that is where the traffic was starting to back up to. So the best of my knowledge I would say it took me 3 or 4 minutes to get down there, so I will just have to say it was in the vicinity of around 12:40.
Mr.Ball. In other words, how long was the man on your bus, the man who got on, about Griffin and got off and you gave him the transfer, approximately?
Mr.McWatters. Well, he got on, and when he got on, I made that one block, and then the other, well, I would be safe in saying he wasn't on there 5 minutes.
Mr.Ball. And you think he got off or on around 12:40?
Mr.McWatters. 12:40 that is the best.
Mr.Ball. What time did you say he got on approximately?
Mr.McWatters. On the bus?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.McWatters. Well, I would say in the vicinity from where I left up there it would be probably it took me, I would say, 3 minutes to come, let's see, it would be Ervay, Akard and Field, that is about 3 blocks there where I left my time point which I would say just a rough estimation it would be with no traffic would be 2 or 3 minutes, I would say 3 minutes anyway.
So, it must have been somewheres 12:39 or—so.
Mr.Ball. When he got on the bus?
Mr.McWatters. 12:40.
Mr.Ball. And then he was on the bus about how many minutes?
Mr.McWatters. Well, just like I say he wasn't on the bus over 4 or 5 minutes, in other words, just made that 1 block there, and in other words, when the traffic stopped, well, that is when he got off the bus.
RepresentativeFord. During the time he was on the bus this man rapped at your door or was your door open, and spoke up and said that the President had been shot?
Mr.McWatters. He was on the bus, you mean was the door open?
RepresentativeFord. No. You previously testified that while you were stalled or jammed up in thetraffic——
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. A man came to the door of the bus and indicated by word ofmouth——
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. That the President had been shot.
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Now, was the man to whom you issued the transfer on the bus at that time?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Now, the man who spoke up and said that the President had been shot, how loudly did he say that?
Mr.McWatters. Well, he said it loud enough that I guess everybody on the bus heard him when he stepped up in the bus.
RepresentativeFord. In other words, that would be your best impression or best recollection that whoever said this, that the President had been shot, said it loudly enough for not only you but the other bus passengers to hear it?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir. Because he stepped up in the bus and when he made the statement in other words, he said that the President had been shot, because I am pretty sure everybody—he said it to the fact. I think that everybody, there might have been some, if there was anybody in the extreme back of the bus, might not have heard it, but I think anyone who was near the front part of the bus could have.
RepresentativeFord. But at that time when this man made this statement, there was a teenager sitting in the first cross seat on the right-hand side of the bus?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. And the man who had gotten on the bus to whom you later issued the transfer, was sitting in the second?
Mr.McWatters. In the second seat.
RepresentativeFord. What is the distance from the door of the bus where the man was standing who made this statement to the second cross seat?
Mr.McWatters. Well, I would say, let's see, it would be I would say 6 or 8 feet.
RepresentativeFord. Was he sitting alone in the second cross seat?
Mr.McWatters. He was sitting alone.
RepresentativeFord. Did you notice any reaction on the part of any of your passengers to this comment by this man who made this statement?
Mr.McWatters. Well, the only reaction that I knew is when he got up and said that, well, that is when the lady got off first, which she jumped up and got her suitcase and said, in other words, made a remark to something. "I am afraid you are going to be tied up here in this traffic and I want to get off."
RepresentativeFord. Where was this lady sitting who got up and asked for this transfer?
Mr.McWatters. Now, this lady was sitting behind me, in other words, I am the driver.
RepresentativeFord. On the left-hand side of the bus looking forward?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; in other words, it is a cross seat. I mean a side seat, in other words, like the driver sitting here, the first seat is the one that runs parallel with the bus, in other words.
RepresentativeFord. Well now, the seat in which the lady was sitting would be parallel to the second cross seat on the other side of the bus?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, in otherwords——
RepresentativeFord. It would be on the same line?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. The first seat would be ahead—the first seat on the right-hand side of the bus would be ahead of the seat where the lady was sitting?
Mr.McWatters. No, you mean the lady, I am referring to who got off first?
RepresentativeFord. Yes.
Mr.McWatters. No, the lady—I was sitting in the driver's seat, she was sitting right behind me, in other words, facing out his way.
RepresentativeFord. But she obviously heard what the man said about the President being shot?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. There is no doubt in your mind she heard that?
Mr.McWatters. I wouldn't think so because when she got up and stated she wanted to getoff——
RepresentativeFord. Was she any further from the man who made this statement about the President being shot than the man who was sitting in the second cross seat?
Mr.McWatters. She was closer to the man actually than the man that got off with her was.
RepresentativeFord. How many feet or how much difference?
Mr.McWatters. Well, the lady in other words, from the door here, it isjust two cross seats, and two seats where you sit sideways and then the two seats in which he would be back here.
RepresentativeFord. Could you diagram that as best as you can?
Mr.Belin. Congressman, we have a diagram. We have a picture of the side of the bus.
Mr.McWatters. Right here.
RepresentativeFord. Sit down.
Mr.McWatters. You can see it from this point right here, in other words. You see this cross seat, in other words, these first two right here, the driver's seat, you see the first two seats there, in other words.
RepresentativeFord. Could you sit down and mark it?
Mr.McWatters. This is the inside, let's see, this is the driver right here. Here is your cross seat right here. Here, about back here, is where the lady got off who was sitting on this seat.
RepresentativeFord. Will you mark that with an "L"?
Mr.McWatters. In other words, right here.
RepresentativeFord. Where was the man in the first cross seat sitting?
Mr.McWatters. Right here is the first. Right here is where the man that was sitting, got off, in this seat right here, I believe it is.
RepresentativeFord. Will you mark that "M" where the man who was sitting also got off who got the transfer?
Mr.Ball. Maybe we had better use a black pen that will show better on that glazed surface.
RepresentativeFord. This is where the man was sitting who you issued the transfer to at the same time the lady was issued the transfer?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. And the teenager was sitting in what seat?
Mr.McWatters. Right here.
RepresentativeFord. Will you mark that "O"?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. Where was the man standing who came to the bus and said the President had been shot?
Mr.McWatters. Right here.
RepresentativeFord. On the step?
Mr.McWatters. On the step. I guess, I presume this would be the second step there. To the best of my recollection he stepped up on the first step.
RepresentativeFord. Mark that "P."
Mr.McWatters. "P."
RepresentativeFord. Now, after the man who was standing at "P" said the President was shot, what did the lady do who was sitting in "L"?
Mr.McWatters. Well, the lady, she had a suitcase sitting right there beside me and she left. When the lady got up and said she would like to get off the bus, and that she was going to walk to the Union Station and asked me if I would give her a transfer in case that I caught up with her, and asked me if I would pick her up.
RepresentativeFord. You gave her a transfer?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. What happened?
Mr.McWatters. She got off and by the time when she was talking to me that is when he got up, this gentleman here in the seat got up, at seat "M" got off. In other words, the door was never closed of the bus from the time the gentleman stepped up in the door of that there, in other words, when he said what he did, and got on back in his car, in other words, the lady got off, and the man got off, too, both at the same stop.
In other words, the bus hadn't moved at that stop.
Mr.Ball. I would like to mark this as the next exhibit, Commission's exhibit, which will be the diagram of the bus with the initials "M," "O," "L," "P," will be marked as Commission's Exhibit 373.
RepresentativeFord. It will be so admitted.
(The diagram referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 373 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr.Ball. And a photograph of the interior of the bus, I would like to have marked as 374.
And a diagram of the bus itself showing front and side as 375.
(The photograph and diagram referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 374 and 375, respectively, and received in evidence.)
Mr.Ball. I will hand you a photograph of the exterior of the bus.
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir; in other words, that is the same bus number.
Mr.Ball. That is right.
Mr.McWatters. That is the bus it was.
Mr.Ball. That is the bus.Number——
Mr.McWatters. 433.
RepresentativeFord. So admitted.
Mr.Ball. These are all admitted.
Now, we have this map which is Commission's Exhibit 371. Can you show me your starting point which is where you started your time on Elm and what street?
Mr.McWatters. That is Elm and St. Paul.
Mr.Ball. Will you mark an "X" there with your black pen, or let's take red pen this time for you, on this same map, here it is right there, that is where you commenced your time, is that right?
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Put an "O" there.
Mr.McWatters. Put an "O" here.
Mr.Ball. Just circle that intersection.
Mr.McWatters. O.K.
Mr.Ball. Now, you went along Elm, westerly along Elm?
Mr.McWatters. That isright——
Mr.Ball. Put a "P" about the place where the man knocked on the window of your door of your bus and got on. Here is Griffin.
Mr.McWatters. This is Griffin right here, mark that with a "P".
Mr.Ball. And put an "R" at the place where the man got off the bus.
Mr.McWatters. Let's see.
Mr.Ball. Here is Lamar.
Mr.McWatters. Here is Lamar here. I want to find Poydras.
Mr.Ball. That is right in here.
Mr.McWatters. That would be, in other words, about the center here would be, in other words, a little bit closer to Lamarthan——
Mr.Ball. Put an "R" there to indicate the approximate position where he got off.
"O" is where you started, so you had better raise those up to Elm. The place he got on and the place he got off.
Perhaps, if you would just draw a line up and put your "R" it would be easier.
Mr.McWatters. On Griffin here now that is where youwant——
Mr.Ball. Where he got on, wherever it was.
Mr.McWatters. Is that where you want the "P"?
Mr.Ball. That is where he got on?
Mr.McWatters. Yes. O.K. right here.
Mr.Ball. And where he got off "R".
Mr.McWatters. That is a very short block right in between Poydras and Lamar here.
Mr.Ball. All right.
Now, let's use the map here. You made your start at St. Paul and Elm didn't you, and went west.
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, you picked up a man who knocked on the window of your bus at a place in the street that was not a bus stop, is that right?
Mr.McWatters. That is correct.
Mr.Ball. And its approximate location was where?
Mr.McWatters. At Griffin Street.
Mr.Ball. And you have marked that as "P"?
Mr.McWatters. Marked that as "P".
Mr.Ball. That same man stayed on your bus until you got to what location
Mr.McWatters. Well, the location was between Poydras and Lamar Street.
In other words, I would say closer to Lamar than to Poydras.
Mr.Ball. At that point he got off the bus?
Mr.McWatters. He got off the bus.
Mr.Ball. And you gave him a transfer?
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And you have marked that "R", is that correct?
Mr.McWatters. That is right, yes.
Mr.Ball. There is another map I would like to show you that hasn't been marked yet as a Commission Exhibit, and I will have that marked as 376, a map of Dallas.
You have already marked on this map, haven't you, or it has been marked in advance then by someone.
(The map referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 376 and received in evidence.)
Mr.McWatters. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Now, take a look at this map and tell me if that map, the blue line on the map, indicates your route on that day, where you started in northeast Dallas?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, that is the original starting line there.
Mr.Ball. What is the street?
Mr.McWatters. I believe—I can't even see that small print on that. That is Ellsworth and Anita, that is where it is coming back there.
Mr.Ball. Ellsworth and Anita, and then you proceeded downtown along that course, did you?
Mr.McWatters. Yes, sir. This is Lakewood shopping center.
Mr.Ball. Do you have an alternative route through there?
Mr.McWatters. No, in other words, that is where the main thoroughfare starts right there at Gaston Avenue. Gaston right here which is the main street when you leave this shopping center.
Mr.Ball. You went down Gaston to Pacific?
Mr.McWatters. Went down Gaston to, let's see this is Hawkins Street right here.
Mr.Ball. Then you went left on Hawkins to Elm?
Mr.McWatters. To Elm Street, yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Then you went on Elm.
Mr.McWatters. Went from Elm to, this would be Houston Street.