Mr.Brennan. I thought they were standing with their elbows on the window sill leaning out.
Mr.Belin. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see?
Mr.Brennan. Well, I could see—at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up.
Mr.Belin. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw?
Mr.Brennan. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun.
Mr.Belin. Do you know what direction the gun was pointing.
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. And what direction was the gun pointing when you saw it?
Mr.Brennan. At somewhat 30 degrees downward and west by south.
Mr.Belin. Do you know down what street it was pointing?
Mr.Brennan. Yes. Down Elm Street toward the railroad underpasses.
Mr.Belin. Now, up to the time of the shots, did you observe anything else that you have not told us about here that you can think of right now?
Mr.Brennan. Well, not of any importance. I don't remember anything elseexcept——
Mr.Belin. Let me ask you this. How many shots did you hear?
Mr.Brennan. Positively two. I do not recall a secondshot——
Mr.Belin. By a second shot, you mean a middle shot between the time you heard the first noise and the last noise?
Mr.Brennan. Yes; that is right. I don't know what made me think that there was firecrackers throwed out of the Book Store unless I did hear the second shot, because I positively thought the first shot was a backfire, and subconsciously I must have heard a second shot, but I do not recall it. I could not swear to it.
Mr.Belin. Could you describe the man you saw in the window on the sixth floor?
Mr.Brennan. To my best description, a man in his early thirties, fair complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5-foot 10.
Mr.Belin. About what weight?
Mr.Brennan. Oh, at—I calculated, I think, from 160 to 170 pounds.
Mr.Belin. A white man?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember what kind of clothes he was wearing?
Mr.Brennan. Light colored clothes, more of a khaki color.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember the color of his hair?
Mr.Brennan. No.
Mr.Belin. Now, I believe you said that after the last shot you jumped off this masonry structure on which you were sitting. Why did you jump off?
Mr.Brennan. Well, it occurred to me that there might be more than one person, that it was a plot which could mean several people, and I knew beyond reasonable doubt that there were going to be bullets flying from every direction.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do after that? Or what did you see?
Mr.Brennan. I observed to my thinking that they were directing their search towards the west side of the building and down Houston Street.
Mr.Belin. When you say "they", who do you mean?
Mr.Brennan. Law-enforcement officers.
Mr.Belin. By the west side of the building, you mean towards the underpass or railroad tracks?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. After you saw that, what did you do?
Mr.Brennan. I knew I had to get to someone quick to tell them where the man was. So I ran or I walked—there is a possibility I ran, because I have a habit of, when something has to be done in a hurry, I run. And there was one officer standing at the corner of the Texas Book Store on the street. It didn't seem to me he was going in any direction. He was standing still.
Mr.Belin. What did you do or what did you say to him?
Mr.Brennan. I asked him to get me someone in charge, a Secret Service man or an FBI. That it appeared to me that they were searching in the wrong direction for the man that did the shooting.
And he was definitely in the building on the sixth floor.
I did not say on the sixth floor. Correction there.
I believe I identified the window as one window from the top.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Brennan. Because, at that time, I did not know how many story building it was.
RepresentativeFord. But you did say to the policeman it was a window on the second floor from the top?
Mr.Brennan. Right.
Mr.Belin. And then what happened?
Mr.Brennan.He——
TheChairman. May I ask there. By the second floor from the top, do you mean the one directly underneath the top floor?
Mr.Brennan. Underneath the top floor, excluding the roof, yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. And then what happened, sir?
Mr.Brennan. He said, "Just a minute." And he had to give some orders or something on the east side of the building on Houston Street. And then he had taken me to, I believe, Mr. Sorrels, an automobile sitting in front of the Texas Book Store.
Mr.Belin. And then what happened there?
Mr.Brennan. I related my information and there was a few minutes of discussion, and Mr. Sorrels had taken me then across the street to the sheriff's building.
Mr.Belin. Did you describe the man that you saw in the window?
Mr.Brennan. Yes; I believe I did.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Brennan, later that afternoon, or the next day, did you have occasion to go down to the Dallas Police Station to try to identify any person?
Mr.Brennan. That evening, the Secret Service picked me up, Mr. Patterson, I believe, at 6 o'clock, at my home, and taken me to the Dallas Police Station.
Mr.Belin. All right. Could you tell us what happened there, please?
Mr.Brennan. If I might add a part, that I left out a couple of minutesago——
Mr.Belin. Go right ahead, sir.
Mr.Brennan. As Mr. Sorrels and some more men were discussing this, I mentioned these two colored guys.
Mr.Belin. Yes.
Mr.Brennan. Came out of the book store, running down the steps.
Mr.Belin. You mean thetwo——
Mr.Brennan. That I had previously saw on the fifth floor.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Brennan. And I immediately identified these two boys to the officers and Mr. Sorrels as being on the fifth floor.
Mr.Belin. Do you have anything else you wish to add now?
Mr.Brennan. No; that concludes that.
Mr.McCloy. They were running out of the building?
Mr.Brennan. They came running down the front steps of the building on the Elm street side.
Mr.McCloy. Did they then disappear in the crowd?
Mr.Brennan. No; they took them in custody, I suppose, and questioned them.
RepresentativeFord. The law enforcement officers stopped them, and you did what, then?
Mr.Brennan. No. I believe Mr. Sorrels or the Secret Service man stopped them.
I am not sure, but I don't believe an officer of the police department stopped them.
RepresentativeFord. But you were standing on the steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building talking to whom?
Mr.Brennan. Mr. Sorrels and another man, and I believe there was an officer standing there, a police officer.
RepresentativeFord. And these two Negroes came out of the front door?
Mr.Brennan. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. And you did what then?
Mr.Brennan.I——
RepresentativeFord. Spoke to Mr. Sorrels?
Mr.Brennan. Spoke to Mr. Sorrels, and told him that those were the two colored boys that was on the fifth floor, or on the next floor underneath the man that fired the gun.
RepresentativeFord. You positively identified them?
Mr.Brennan. I did, at that time.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything else now up to the time you got down to the Dallas Police Station?
Mr.Brennan. Well, nothing except that up until that time, through my entire life, I could never remember what a colored person looked like if he got out of my sight. And I always thought that if I had to identify a colored person I could not. But by coincidence that one time I did recognize those two boys.
RepresentativeFord. Did those two Negro men say in your presence that they had been in the fifth floor window?
Mr.Brennan. I don't recall. I don't recall.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything else, sir, now up to the time you got down to the Dallas Police Station?
Mr.Brennan. On Friday evening, you are speaking of?
Mr.Belin. Yes.
Mr.Brennan. No.
Mr.Belin. All right.
What happened when you got down to the Dallas Police Station?
Mr.Brennan. Mr. Patterson, if I am correct in the Secret Service that picked me up, directed me to go to the fourth floor, a certain room on that floor.
(At this point, Mr. Warren and Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr.Brennan. I later was introduced to several men—Captain Fritz in Mr. Sorrels' office, and several more men. I do not remember their names.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Before I go any further, do you remember the name of the officer you talked to in front of the School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Brennan. I don't believe I ever heard it. I do not remember his name.
Mr.Belin. Are you sure of the names of the Secret Service men you talked to? I believe you mentioned the name Sorrels.
Mr.Brennan. I do not know the other man's name.
Mr.Belin. You believe one of them was Sorrels?
Mr.Brennan. I believe one of them was Sorrels.
Mr.Belin. I think for therecord——
Mr.Brennan. That is at the building.
Mr.Belin. Yes, sir.
I think we should offer and introduce Commission Exhibits 477, 478, and 479.
Mr.Dulles. The Chief Justice has asked me to preside in his absence this morning.
They shall be admitted.
(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 477, 478 and 479, were received in evidence.)
Mr.Belin. By the way, Mr. Brennan, I note that you have glasses with you here today.
Were you wearing glasses at the time of the incident that you related here?
Mr.Brennan. No. I only use glasses to see fine print and more especially the Bible and blueprint.
Mr.Belin. And have you had your eyes checked within the past 2 or 3 years?
Mr.Brennan. These here were prescriptioned, I believe, a possibility less than a year before the incident.
Mr.Dulles. Does that mean you are farsighted?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr.Belin. Has there been anything that has happened since the time of November 22, 1963, that has changed your eyesight in any way?
Mr.Brennan. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. What has happened?
Mr.Brennan. The last of January I got both eyes sandblasted.
Mr.Belin. This is January of 1964?
Mr.Brennan. Yes. And I had to be treated by a Doctor Black, I believe, in the Medical Arts Building, through the company. And I was completely blind for about 6 hours.
Mr.Belin. How is your eyesight today?
Mr.Brennan. He says it is not good.
Mr.Belin. But this occurred January of this year, is that correct?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Now, taking you down to the Dallas Police Station, I believe you said you talked to Captain Fritz. And then what happened?
Mr.Brennan. Well, I was just more or less introduced to him in Mr. Sorrels' room, and they told me they were going to conduct a lineup and wanted me to view it, which I did.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember how many people were in the lineup?
Mr.Brennan. No; I don't. A possibility seven more or less one.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Did you see anyone in the lineup you recognized?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. And what did you say?
Mr.Brennan. I told Mr. Sorrels and Captain Fritz at that time that Oswald—or the man in the lineup that I identified looking more like a closest resemblance to the man in the window than anyone in the lineup.
Mr.Belin. Were the other people in the lineup, do you remember—were they all white, or were there some Negroes in there, or what?
Mr.Brennan. I do not remember.
Mr.Belin. As I understand your testimony, then, you said that you told him that this particular person looked the most like the man you saw on the sixth floor of the building there.
Mr.Brennan. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. In the meantime, had you seen any pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald on television or in the newspapers?
Mr.Brennan. Yes, on television.
Mr.Belin. About when was that, do you believe?
Mr.Brennan. I believe I reached home quarter to three or something of that, 15 minutes either way, and I saw his picture twice on television before I went down to the police station for the lineup.
Mr.Belin. Now, is there anything else you told the officers at the time of the lineup?
Mr.Brennan. Well, I told them I could not make a positive identification.
Mr.Belin. When you told them that, did you ever later tell any officer or investigating person anything different?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. When did that happen?
Mr.Brennan. I believe some days later—I don't recall exactly—and I believe the Secret Service man identified hisself as being Williams, I believe, from Houston. I won't swear to that—whether his name was Williams or not.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Brennan. And he could have been an FBI. As far as I remember, it could have been FBI instead of Secret Service.
But I believe it was a Secret Service man from Houston.
AndI——
Mr.Belin. What did he say to you and what did you say to him?
Mr.Brennan. Well, he asked me—he said, "You said you couldn't make a positive identification."
He said, "Did you do that for security reasons personally, or couldn't you?"
And I told him I could with all honesty, but I did it more or less for security reasons—my family and myself.
Mr.Belin. What do you mean by security reasons for your family and yourself?
Mr.Brennan. I believe at that time, and I still believe it was a Communist activity, and I felt like there hadn't been more than one eyewitness, and if it got to be a known fact that I was an eyewitness, my family or I, either one, might not be safe.
Mr.Belin. Well, if you wouldn't have identified him, might he not have been released by the police?
Mr.Brennan. Beg pardon?
Mr.Belin. If you would not have identified that man positively, might he not have been released by the police?
Mr.Brennan. No. That had a great contributing factor—greater contributing factor than my personal reasons was that I already knew they had the man for murder, and I knew he would not be released.
Mr.Belin. The murder of whom?
Mr.Brennan. Of Officer Tippit.
Mr.Belin. Well, what happened in between to change your mind that you later decided to come forth and tell them you could identify him?
Mr.Brennan. After Oswald was killed, I was relieved quite a bit that as far as pressure on myself of somebody not wanting me to identify anybody, there was no longer that immediate danger.
Mr.Belin. What is the fact as to whether or not your having seen Oswald on television would have affected your identification of him one way or the other?
Mr.Brennan. That is something I do not know.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Brennan, could you tell us now whether you can or cannot positively identify the man you saw on the sixth floor window as the same man that you saw in the police station?
Mr.Brennan. I could at that time—I could, with all sincerity, identify him as being the same man.
Mr.Belin. Was the man that you saw in the window firing the rifle the same man that you had seen earlier in the window, you said at least a couple of times, first stepping up and then going back?
Mr.Brennan. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. About how far were you away from that window at the time you saw him, Mr. Brennan?
Mr.Brennan. Well, at that time, I calculated 110-foot at an angle. But closer surveillance I believe it will run close to 122 to 126 feet at an angle.
Mr.Belin. I believe that on Friday we paced the distance between the place where you were sitting and the front door of the Texas School Book Depository Building, and it ranabout——
Mr.Brennan. 93-foot.
RepresentativeFord. This doesn't have to be now, but I think some time he ought to step by step on a diagram trace his movements from the restaurant until he left the scene of the shooting.
Mr.Belin. On that particular diagram, Congressman Ford, which is Exhibit No. 361, the intersection of Main and Houston, and of Record and Main is not shown. It would be a little bit to the south.
RepresentativeFord. But he might be able to show the direction from which he came to get on to the scene.
Mr.Belin. Yes; that he can do.
RepresentativeFord. And then his movements from there on until he left the area. I think it would be very helpful to tie down the precise places he was from time to time.
Mr.Belin. I think he might do that right now.
Mr. Brennan, I place in front of you Exhibit 361, and I call to your attention that the top appears to be south rather than north, and the arrow north is pointed towards the bottom. And you will notice at the top here, running in what would be an east-west direction, is Elm Street. And you can see running in a north-south direction Houston Street, with the Texas School Book Depository Building noted here in black.
Do you see that?
Mr.Brennan. It should be here.
Mr.Belin. I will turn the map around to show you north and south; we can keep it upside down for the moment.
This is Elm Street. To the north is Pacific. Main would be down here off the bottom of the map. And here is Record Street right here. And I believe you said you were at lunch at Record and Main, and then you walked to the south.
I wonder if you might take this pen and kind of, off the street markings, you might start maybe down here at the bottom as to where you had your lunch.
Mr.Brennan. This is Main here.
Mr.Belin. Main would be running there, yes.
If you would, put a "D" at that point.
Now, if you would kind of on a line trace your course that you took that day.
All right.
Mr.Brennan. I didn't go to the corner.
Mr.Belin. You didn't go to the corner of Elm and Houston. That would be the southeast corner?
Mr.Brennan. I noticed this man having a fit. And I came across at this corner.
Mr.Belin. Now, would you put the letter "E" where you ended up sitting. This is on Exhibit No. 361.
Mr.Brennan. "E"?
Mr.Belin. Yes.
Mr.Brennan. I believe that would be just about where the retainer wall is.
Mr.Belin. All right.
So you have put on Exhibit 361 the letter "E" where you were sitting facing the School Book Depository Building.
RepresentativeFord. I think that it might be helpful to trace it where he went subsequent to that.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Subsequent to the time of the shooting, would you put a line from your point at point "E" to where you went to talk to the police officers and the Secret Service officers?
Mr.Brennan. The retaining wall come around here and straight across here.
Mr.Belin. Will you put an "F" where you talked to him?
Mr.Brennan. The car was sitting here. That is where I talked to him. This is where I contacted the officer.
Mr.Belin. You contacted the officer at "F".
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. And then you went over to a car.
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Would you put your direction to the car and put a "G" on there?
Mr.Brennan. I walked down the street hereaways with this officer.
Mr.Belin. All right, the point from "F" where you walked down the street, that would be walking north on Houston?
Mr.Brennan. I don't know; however, we walked down this way, but I do remember going in that direction with the officer.
Mr.Belin. You went to the north on Houston?
Mr.Brennan. Yes. And then backto——
Mr.Belin. Well, just put a mark in there, and cut it back, if you could, just to show the route of you going north.
Mr.Brennan. I don't know exactly however.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Will you put a mark to "G" at the end? And I believe you said that the car that you talked to the Secret Service agent in was at point "G" approximately?
Mr.Brennan. Right.
Mr.Belin. Now, are these accurate or approximate locations, Mr. Brennan?
Mr.Brennan. Well, don't you have photographs of me talking to the Secret Service men right here?
Mr.Belin. I don't believe so.
Mr.Brennan. You should have. It was on television before I got home—my wife saw it.
Mr.Belin. On television?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. At this time we do not have them.
Do you remember what station they were on television?
Mr.Brennan. No. But they had it. And I called I believe Mr. Lish who requested that he cut those films or get them cut of the FBI. I believe you might know about them. Somebody cut those films, because a number of times later the same films were shown, and that part was cut.
Mr.Belin. Who would Mr. Lish be with?
Mr.Brennan. The FBI.
Mr.Belin. All right.
We thank you very much for that information.
Is there anything else that you did at point "G" or anywhere else after the time of the assassination before you went to the Sheriff's office?
Mr.Brennan. I walked up the steps and stood on the outside of the doorway.
Mr.Belin. Of what building?
Mr.Brennan. Of the Texas Book Store, while the officers or the men that I was with gave some more orders. And then Mr. Sorrels taken me across to the Sheriff's office.
Mr.Dulles. You did not go inside the building?
Mr.Brennan. No; I did not.
Mr.Belin. Did you notice any people coming out of the front stairs of the building after these two Negroes came out?
Mr.Brennan. Well, I recall people going in and out, but a different picture I cannot remember.
RepresentativeFord. Where were you standing when you identified the two Negroes?
Mr.Brennan. On the edge of the street, outer side of the sidewalk, when the two colored boys came out of the building and came down the steps.
Mr.Belin. Was that at point "G"?
Mr.Brennan. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Now, perhaps on Exhibit No. 478 you can trace your route at least along Houston Street to the time—to the place where you were sitting. You recognize the intersection of Main and Houston there?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Could you start there and kind of trace—well, I don't know if you can see all of it.
Mr.Brennan. No.
Mr.Belin. Do the best you can, you can trace along here.
Here would be the intersection of Main and Houston.
Mr.Brennan. I came down that side. Now, this street was open at that time.
Mr.Belin. By this street you mean Houston Street?
Mr.Brennan. Yes. I don't recall any parked cars there.
Mr.Belin. Could you make that line a little darker, sir, that you have put on.
All right. Now, at that first point, this wouldbe——
Mr.Brennan. I believe I walked a little south there, just observing them picking the man up.
Mr.Belin. All right.
You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it?
Mr.Brennan. Well, I didn't go up—he was almost center way of the block here. I didn't go up that far.
Mr.Belin. All right.
And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would?
Mr.Brennan. Where I was standing watching the man?
Mr.Belin. Where you were standing watching the man; yes.
Mr.Brennan. Right there.
Mr.Belin. And then where did you go from there?
Mr.Brennan. Right there.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Now, you have taken a line which would be running along the south side of Elm Street there towards the point where you are sitting, and that is in the picture Exhibit 478. And that was the route that you took?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Put the letter "I", if you would, there, please.
Now, on Exhibit No. 477, I wonder if you would perchance show us after the assassination, or the shooting—you said you first went over to another side of the wall.
Would it be to the east or to the west there?
Mr.Brennan. To the east. This right here is solid concrete.
Mr.Belin. Is this where you went?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. All right.
On Exhibit 477, could you put the letter "J" where you went right after the shooting?
All right.
Now, I believe you said you later stood up and eventually walked across the street to get a police officer. On Exhibit 477, could you put a letter "K" where you believe you went to talk to this police officer, where he was.
It looks like there is a car there now.
So you went from point "J" to point "K", and point "K", on Exhibit 477, would correspond with "F" on Exhibit 361, is that right?
Mr.Brennan. Right.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Now, I wonder if you could perchance show on Exhibit 477 the point that corresponds with point "G" on Exhibit 361, which is where you said you went to the car.
Mr.Brennan. This car here—letter what?
Mr.Belin. "L".
Mr.Brennan. That is this car here, sitting approximatelywhere——
Mr.Belin. I note that this car that you have marked the "L" is not actuallyon the extreme north part of Elm, but really appears to be on that part which is going down to the Freeway.
Mr.Brennan. Oh, is that right?
Yes; you are correct there.
Mr.Belin. Now, is this accurate, or was it one that you saw parked right in front of the building?
Mr.Brennan. Right next to the curb in front of the building.
Mr.Belin. Would it be behind—you might put the letter "M" to show the car which it is behind now.
Mr.Brennan. All right.
Mr.Belin. You have put the letter "M" on Exhibit 477 to show the car behind the one which the Secret Service car was parked.
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. At this time I believe Exhibits 477, 478 and 479 should be reoffered to show all of the markings that the witness has made on these exhibits.
Mr.Dulles. They shall be admitted as remarked.
(The documents referred to, previously marked for identification as Commission's Exhibit Nos. 477, 478, and 479 were readmitted into evidence.)
Mr.Belin. And also Exhibit 361 should be reoffered.
Mr.Dulles. What is 361?
Mr.Belin. It is the large chart which also has been marked on.
Mr.Dulles. It shall be admitted again, remarked.
(The chart referred to, previously marked as Commission's Exhibit No. 361 for identification, was readmitted into evidence.)
Mr.Belin. Mr. Brennan, in this sixth floor window, where you saw the gun fired, did you see any objects of any kind in the window, or near the window?
Mr.Brennan. Yes. Through the window, which I referred to as back in the book store building, I could see stacks of boxes.
Mr.Belin. Now, I hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 480, which appears to be a picture of the Texas School Book Depository Building, which was taken shortly after this time.
I believe on the fifth floor you can see on two of the open windows there some people looking out, and Exhibit 481 is a picture of the east windows on the south side of the fifth and sixth floors, and Exhibit 482 is an enlargement of 481.
First of all, on Exhibits 481 and 482, do you recognize any of these two persons in the fifth floor window as people you saw there?
Mr.Brennan. No; I do not recognize them.
As positive identification I cannot recognize them.
Now, I see where there is a possibility I did make a mistake. I believe these two colored boys was in this window, and I believe I showed on that other exhibit that they were in this window.
Mr.Belin. All right.
I am going to hand younow——
Mr.Brennan. The only thing I said is that they were one window over below the man that fired the gun.
Mr.Belin. Well, I hand you Commission Exhibit 477, where you marked a "B" at the point there you first said you saw the Negro men. Is this the one you say now you might have been mistaken?
Mr.Brennan. Yes; I believe I was mistaken. I believe the two men that I identified was in this window.
Mr.Belin. You are pointing to the window to the east of where you have now marked "B"?
Mr.Brennan. That I am not positive of. I just remember that they were over one window from below him, which at that time I might have thought this was one window over.
Mr.Belin. All right. Let me ask you this. On Exhibit 481, does the condition of the opening of the windows in the fifth floor appear to be that which you saw on the afternoon of November 22?
Mr.Brennan. Yes. These do.
Mr.Belin. You are pointing to the fifth-floor windows now?
Mr.Brennan. But I don't recall this window at the time of the shooting being that low.
Mr.Belin. Now, by this window you are pointing to the window on the sixth floor?
Mr.Brennan. Right.
Mr.Belin. On Exhibit 481. I wonder if you would mark that with the letter "A"—if you would circle that window. And could you put an "A" on that, if you would.
Now, window A, on Exhibit 481, when you saw it, how high do you believe it was open?
Mr.Brennan. I believe that at the time he was firing, it was open just like this.
Mr.Belin. Just like the windows on the fifth floor immediately below?
Mr.Brennan. That is right.
Mr.Belin. I note in window "A" there appear to be some boxes in the window. To the best of your recollection, what is the fact as to whether or not those boxes as shown in this exhibit appear to be similar to the ones you saw on November 22?
Mr.Brennan. No; I could see more boxes.
Mr.Belin. In the window or behind the window?
Mr.Brennan. Behind the window.
Mr.Belin. I am talking in the window itself.
Mr.Brennan. No, no. That is—I don't remember a box in the window, these boxes I remember are stacked up behind the window, and they were zigzagged, kind of step down, and there was a space it looked like back of here.
Mr.Belin. Now, you are pointing to a space which would be on the east side, is that right?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. When you say you don'tremember——
Mr.Brennan. Well, I can see those boxes there now. I don't know whether you can see them or not. It seems like I can see the boxes in that picture. Am I right?
Mr.Belin. I don't know, sir. I can't see them on Exhibit 471. That could be the dirty window here.
Mr.Brennan. Here they are here. Those boxes there.
Mr.Belin. Well, here is Exhibit 482.
First of all, I see a box on Exhibit 482, right in the window.
Mr.Brennan. Yes; I don't recall that box.
Mr.Belin. Do you recall that it definitely was not there, or just you don't recall whether it was or was not there.
Mr.Brennan. I do not recall that being there. So, therefore, I could not say it definitely wasn't there.
Mr.Belin. You cannot say whether it was or was not?
Mr.Brennan. No.
Mr.Belin. On Exhibit 482, do you want to point an arrow to where you believe you can see boxes back there. Or where you saw boxes.
All right.
Let the record show that Exhibits 480, 481, and 482 were taken by, I believe it is, Underwood or—just a second. Thomas C. Dillard, Chief Photographer of the Dallas Morning News, who was riding in the car with Robert H. Jackson, who has already testified before the Commission, and the deposition of Mr. Dillard will be taken by Mr. Ball and me in Dallas in the first part of April.
And that Exhibits 480, 481, and 482 were taken shortly after the firing of the third shot. I think that this should appear in the record.
I think it should also appear in the record that Exhibit 479 is one of the frames from the Abraham Zapruder movie film.
Mr. Brennan, from the time you first saw the Presidential motorcade turning north on Houston from Main, did you observe the window from which you say you saw the last shot fired at any time prior to the time you saw the rifle in the window?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Well, what I am saying is this. You saw the motorcade turn?
Mr.Brennan. No; not after I saw the motorcade, I did not observe a man or rifle in the window.
Mr.Belin. Did you observe the window at all until after you heard that first sound which was a backfire or firecracker, at least you thought it was?
Mr.Brennan. No.
Mr.Belin. So you did not observe the window and would not know whether or not there was any man in the window during that period?
Mr.Brennan. No.
Mr.Belin. Well, let the record be clear. The first sound you first thought was what?
Mr.Brennan. Backfire of a motorcycle.
Mr.Belin. And then you later said something about a firecracker.
Did that have reference to the first shot, or something in between the first and last?
Mr.Brennan. I positively thought that the first shot was a backfire of a motorcycle. And then something made me think that someone was throwing firecrackers from the Texas Book Store, and a possibility it was the second shot. But I glanced up or looked up and I saw this man taking aim for his last shot. The first shot and last shot is my only positive recollection of two shots.
Mr.McCloy. Did you see the rifle explode? Did you see the flash of what was either the second or the third shot?
Mr.Brennan. No.
Mr.McCloy. Could you see that he had discharged the rifle?
Mr.Brennan. No. For some reason I did not get an echo at any time. The first shot was positive and clear and the last shot was positive and clear, with no echo on my part.
Mr.McCloy. Yes.
But you saw him aim?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.McCloy. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash?
Mr.Brennan. No.
Mr.McCloy. But you heard the last shot.
Mr.Brennan. The report; yes, sir.
Mr.Dulles. Could you see who or what he was aiming at? You testified as to the declination of the rifle, the angle of the rifle. But could you see what he was firing at?
Mr.Brennan. Subconsciously I knew what he was firing at. But immediately I looked towards where President Kennedy's car should be, and there was something obstructing my view. I could not see the President or his car at that time.
And I still don't know what was obstructing my view, because I was high enough that I should have been able to see it. I could not see it.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Brennan, on one of your interviews with the FBI, they record a statement that you estimated your distance between the point you were seated and the window from which the shots were fired as approximately 90 yards.
At that time did you make that statement to the FBI—and this would be on 22 November. To the best of your recollection?
Mr.Brennan. There was a mistake in the FBI recording there. He had asked me the question of how far the shot was fired from too, and also he had asked me the question of how far I was from the shot that was fired. I calculated the distance at the angle his gun was resting that he must have been firing 80 to 90 yards.
Now,I——
Mr.Belin. You mean 80 or 90 yards from where?
Mr.Brennan. From Kennedy's position.
Mr.Belin. But could you see Kennedy's position?
Mr.Brennan. No; I could not. But I could see before and after.
Mr.Belin. In that same interview, you stated that you attended a lineup at the Dallas Police Department at which you picked Lee Harvey Oswald as the person most closely resembling the man you observed with the rifle in thewindow of the Texas School Book Depository, but you stated you could not positively identify Oswald as the person you saw fire the rifle.
Now, is this an accurate recording of the statement you made to the FBI on or about November 22?
Mr.Brennan. Yes; Ibelieve——
Mr.Belin. In other words, that part of the FBI statement is correct, as to what you told them?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What was the fact as to whether you could or could not identify the person, apart from what you told them?
Mr.Brennan. Why didI——
Mr.Belin. No.
What was the fact. Could you or could you not actually identify this person as the man you saw firing the rifle?
Mr.Brennan. I believed I could with all fairness and sincerity. As you asked me the question before, had I saw those pictures of Oswald prior, which naturally I don't know whether it confused me or made me feel as though I was taking unfair advantage or what. But with all fairness, I could have positively identified the man.
Mr.Belin. Now, on December 17 there appears to be another interview that you had with an agent of the FBI in which you at that time, according to this report, stated that you could now say that you were sure that Lee Harvey Oswald was the person you saw in the window at the time of the assassination, but that when you first saw him in a lineup you felt positive identification was was not necessary, because it was your understanding that Oswald had already been charged with the slaying of Officer Tippit, and you also said that another factor was that you had observed his picture on television prior to the time of identification, and that that tended to cloud any identification you made of Oswald at the police department.
Now, does this December 17 interview accurately record what you told the FBI with regard to that matter of identification?
Mr.Brennan. I believe it does.
Mr.Belin. Now, later we have an interview on January 7 with the FBI in which at that time the interview records that while you were at home and before you returned to view the lineup, which included the possible assassin of President Kennedy, you observed Lee Harvey Oswald's picture on television, and that you said that this, of course, did not help you retain the original impression of the man in the window with the rifle, but that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the police lineup, you felt that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in the window.
Now, is that what you told the man on January 7—that Oswald most resembled the man that you had seen in the window?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Does that mean you could not give him a positive identification at that time, but could merely say he most resembled the man in the window?
Mr.Brennan. Well, I felt that I could. But for personal reasons I didn't feel like that at that moment it was compulsory and I did not want to give a positive identification at that time.
Mr.Belin. Now, this last interview was on January 7th. You still felt these personal reasons as recently as January 7th, then?
Mr.Brennan. No. I felt better about it. This is the first guythat——
Mr.Belin. No. I am referring now to the last interview you had on January 7th, in which it says that you felt that Oswald most resembled the man you had seen in the window.
Is that what you told them?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
You mean told this man?
Mr.Belin. On January 7th; yes, sir.
Mr.Brennan. No; I don't believe I told this man in those words. I told him what I had said at the lineup. But he might have misinterpreted that I was saying that again.
Mr.Belin. In other words—well, I don't want to say in other words.
When you said on January 7th that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the lineup you felt that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in the window?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Now, I am referring to a statement to the FBI on January 7th of this year.
Mr.Brennan. All right.
Mr.Belin. By that, did you have reference to your own personal recollection, or what you said at the time of the Dallas Police Department lineup?
Mr.Brennan. I believe I was referring to what I said at the Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Belin. On January 7th of this year, what is the fact as to whether or not you could give—whether or not you felt on November 22d that the man you saw in the window was the man you saw in the police lineup—not what you told him, but what was the fact?
Mr.Brennan. On January 7th, at that time I did believe that I could give positive identification as well as I did later.
Mr.Belin. You mean in the December interview?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Let me ask you this: You said you saw the man with the rifle on the sixth floor, and then you said you saw some Negroes on the fifth floor.
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Did you get as good a look at the Negroes as you got at the man with the rifle?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Did you feel that your recollection of the Negroes at that time was as good as the one with the man with the rifle?
Mr.Brennan. Yes—at that time, it was. Now—the boys rode up with me on the plane—of course I recognize them now. But as far as a few days later, I wouldn't positively say that I could identify them. I did identify them that day.
Mr.Belin. Well, for instance, when I showed you Exhibit 482, you said that you could notidentify——
Mr.Brennan. Well, the picture is not clear enough, as far as distinct profiles.
Mr.Dulles. Mr. Belin, I don't think you have asked they be admitted as yet.
Mr.Belin. No, sir. I have one more mark to make on them, sir.
Mr.Brennan. The pictures there are not clear enough, the profile is not distinct enough.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Now, I wonder if you would take on Exhibit 482, if you can kind of mark the way the rifle was at the time you saw it.
Here is a red pencil. If you could put on Exhibit 482 the direction that you saw the rifle pointing, sir.
Mr.Brennan. I would say more at this angle. Maybe not as far out as this.
Mr.Belin. You have put a line, and I have tried to make a little bit darker line.
Mr.Brennan. That is as close as I can get it.
Mr.Belin. This is on Exhibit 482—as to the angle at which you saw the rifle. And you say perhaps it wasn't out of the window as far as this line goes on Exhibit 482, is that correct?
Mr.Brennan. Right.
RepresentativeFord. That is the angle that you believe the rifle was pointed?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Dulles. And that is from the area in the window from which the rifle was pointing?
Mr.Brennan. Right.
Mr.Belin. Could you tell whether or not any part of the rifle was protruding out of the window?
Mr.Brennan. On a straight view like that it looked like it was.
But as I have told investigating officers prior, a person would have to be at an angle to tell how much was protruding out of the window. It did lookat that time that as much was protruding out of the window as there was in the window.
Mr.Belin. At this time, we offer and introduce into evidence Exhibits 480, 481, and 482.
Mr.Dulles. They will be accepted.
(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 480, 481, and 482 were received in evidence.)
Mr.McCloy. I have one or two questions, if you are finished, Mr. Belin.
Mr.Belin. One more question, sir.
Did you ever tell anyone that you were 90 yards away from that window where you saw the gun?
Mr.Brennan. No. It was a misunderstanding. My first calculation was that I was about 75-foot out from the window, and the calculation of the window 75-foot up. So the hypotenuse there would be approximately 110-foot. That was my first calculation.
But since we made a step of the grounds Friday, I was farther out than 75 feet. Approximately 93 feet is what we calculated Friday.
Mr.Belin. One additional question, sir.
When did you first see Exhibit 479?
Mr.Brennan. This morning.
Mr.Belin. This morning here.
And on Exhibit 479, who picked the person out as being you in that picture? Was it you or was it I?
Mr.Brennan. I did.
I might add that prior to Friday, no one had ever gave me any information on your evidence whatsoever.
Mr.Belin. Well, on Friday you and I met for the first time in Dallas—that would be on March 20th.
Mr.Brennan. Right.
Mr.Belin. And we sat down and I asked you just to tell me what happened, is that correct?
Mr.Brennan. That is right.
Mr.Belin. Did I ask you a general question and say, "What happened?" Or did I just ask you repeated questions?
Mr.Brennan. No.
Well, you more or less told me to tell it in my own way exactly what happened.
Mr.Belin. And you just started to tell it, is that correct?
Mr.Brennan. Yes. I believe that sums it up.
Mr.Belin. And then we then went outside where you pointed out the place where you were sitting?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember the doctor that examined your eyes when you had them examined?
Mr.Brennan. He is in Port Lavaca. He is the only leading optometrist there.
Mr.Belin. Would it be Dr. Howard R. Bonar?
Mr.Brennan. That is right.
How did you find that out?
Mr.Berlin. Well, sir, it is on one of your interviews here.
Mr.Brennan. Had that question been asked me before?
Mr.Belin. Yes, it had. On November 22, when you advised that you wore glasses for reading purposes only.
Mr.Brennan. That is right, the FBI, Mr. Lish, right?
Mr.Belin. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. That examination was before the sand blasting, of course.
Mr.Brennan. Oh, yes, sir. The sandblasting wasn't until January or early February of this year.
RepresentativeFord. Did you have your glasses on at the time of the assassination?
Mr.Brennan. No.
Mr.McCloy. You can see better at that distance without your glasses than with them?
Mr.Brennan. Oh, yes, much better. Oh, I could put these glasses on and itis just like looking through a window pane. The upper part is just regular clear.
Mr.Dulles. Do you have some questions, Mr. McCloy?
Mr.McCloy. Yes; I have some questions.
You said you went across the street after having sort of jumped off this retaining wall in order to protect yourself against the possible fusilade of shots.
Mr.Brennan. Right.
Mr.McCloy. Then you went across and picked up a police officer, is that right?
Mr.Brennan. Right, sir.
Mr.McCloy. And then you went with him to the steps of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Brennan. Eventually, yes.
Mr.McCloy. How long did it take you, do you think, from the time of the—when you first got up—from the time of the last shot, how long would you estimate it would be before you got to the steps of the Texas Book Depository?
Mr.Brennan. I could not calculate that, because before I got to the steps of the Texas Book Store, I had already talked to this officer, and he had taken me to the Secret Service men, I had talked to them.
Mr.McCloy. And you stayed behind the retaining wall for a little while until you saw the coast was clear?
Mr.Brennan. Just seconds. I would say from the time the last shot was fired, and me diving off the wall there, and getting around on the solid side, and then running across to the officer, the time element is hard to figure, but it would still be in seconds.