Mr.McCloy. Then when you got to the officer he took you to a Secret Service man, and then the Secret Service man and you were on the steps of the depository?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Well, we talked at the car, and then when these two colored guys came down the stairway onto the street, I pointed to them, and identified them as being the two that was in the floor below that floor. And then Mr. Sorrels, I think, had to give some orders to someone in the book store. He walked me up the steps, and I stood on the top landing.
Mr.McCloy. When you were standing on those steps, did you see anyone pass you, or anyone that you could recognize as being—as looking somewhat like the man that you had seen in the window with the rifle?
Mr.Brennan. No, I did not.
Mr.Dulles. Did you give any estimate—was it a matter of 5 minutes, 6 minutes, 7 minutes? In general, how long did it take you from the time that you left where you were protecting yourself to the time you were on the front steps? What order of magnitude? 10 minutes?
Mr.Brennan. No; it was a shorter time than that.
I talked to Mr. Sorrels—I believe it was Mr. Sorrels—and the Secret Service men there—I don't believe I talked to them more than 3 to 5 minutes.
Mr.McCloy. But you had prior to that time talked to the police officer?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.McCloy. You said the police officer said, "Wait a minute."
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
Mr.McCloy. How long was that?
Mr.Brennan. That was quick, too. He gave his orders to some one on that side of the building, and then he had taken me to the Secret Service man.
Mr.McCloy. Did you have the feeling that the police had put a cordon around the building, and were they keeping people in, or were people coming in and out while you were there?
Mr.Brennan. Well, I did, by the time I got on the steps of the Texas Book Store—I felt like that the place was completely surrounded and blocked by then. But at the time I ran across to this officer, I may have been completely wrong, they may have—the Secret Service men and police department, too, may have been directing their search to the building, but I felt as though they were directing their search to the west side of the building.
Mr.McCloy. You testified, I believe, that you saw them directing their search towards the wrong side of the building, so to speak?
Mr.Brennan. Yes. That was my thoughts.
Mr.McCloy. And so that would indicate that at that time they were not blocking that particular entrance at the east side of the building, below the window that you saw the shot fired from?
Mr.Brennan. Not according to my calculations.
Mr.Dulles. Any other questions?
RepresentativeFord. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that perhaps in the case of Mr. Brennan and other witnesses, if a biography prepared by the individual, looked over by the staff, would not be helpful to include in the record—I don't mean a biography in great depth, but at least an outline of the individual's background—I think it would be helpful for the record.
Mr.Dulles. We have certain information.
Mr.Belin. We have certain information in the record right now which we took at the very beginning of the session here this morning.
RepresentativeFord. Yes, I was present. But I think it is important to have more of a background of his education, experience, and I think it is wise to have it for all of the witnesses—not in great depth, but at least a background to show some biographical information.
Mr.Belin. Would you care to have that prepared by the witness himself, or here in the record?
RepresentativeFord. I would suggest that it be prepared initially by the witness, checked over by the staff, and then mutually agreed as acceptable through the witness, and then insert it in the record.
Mr.Dulles. Prior to his testimony?
RepresentativeFord. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Would you be willing to furnish us with some kind of an autobiographical sketch of yourself—your date and place of birth, where you went to school, your education, your jobs that you have had, and perhaps it also should include some kind of a physical description as to your approximate height and weight and what-have-you?
Mr.Brennan. Not at all. But you sure going to be confused on my jobs, sir.
Mr.Belin. Because you have gone from one job to another?
Mr.Brennan. Well, I worked under the union constitution for the last 20 years, and I have worked for many a contractor.
Mr.Belin. You mean you just work on contract, and when you are through with that particular construction job, the union would send you to another construction job?
Mr.Brennan. Yes. Usually a contractor wants me to go to the State of Washington, like I did in California, or he wants me to go to Utah or somewhere like that.
Mr.Dulles. I don't think we need all that detail.
Mr.Belin. In other words, you have been a steamfitter.
Mr.Brennan. Yes, sir.
With the exception of the possibility of 2 years I was in business in California, private business.
Mr.McCloy. Are you a member of a church?
Mr.Brennan. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. What church are you a member of?
Mr.Brennan. Baptist.
Mr.McCloy. You testified you were a Bible reader.
Mr.Brennan. Well, I don't read it as much as I should.
Mr.McCloy. When you do, you have to wear glasses?
Mr.Brennan. Yes, sir.
Mr.Dulles. Any other questions?
Mr.Belin. There have been two or three other questions that have come up here, sir.
One question—when we visited on Friday in Dallas, what is the fact as to whether or not I told you what to say or you yourself just told me what you wanted to tell me?
Mr.Brennan. I told you—you did not instruct me what to say at all. I toldyou in the best words I could to explain exactly my movements and what happened.
RepresentativeFord. And here today you have testified freely on your own?
Mr.Brennan. Right, I have.
Mr.Dulles. Anything you would like to add?
Mr.Belin. One other question, sir.
For the record, would you repeat what I would say would be a full statement of the reasons which caused you to state in your December interview to the FBI that you had always been convinced that the man you saw in the lineup was the man you saw firing the rifle, whereas on November 22d you declined to give positive identification. Could you give all of the reasons, please?
Mr.Brennan. Well, as I previously have said, I had saw the man in the window and I had saw him on television. He looked much younger on television than he did from my picture of him in the window—not much younger, but a few years younger—say 5 years younger.
And then I felt that my family could be in danger, and I, myself, might be in danger. And since they already had the man for murder, that he wasn't going to be set free to escape and get out of the country immediately, and I could very easily sooner than the FBI or the Secret Service wanted me, my testimony in, I could very easily get in touch with them, if they didn't get in touch with me, and to see that the man didn't get loose.
RepresentativeFord. When you got home, about 3 o'clock, on November 22d, that is when you did gethome——
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. Was your wife there?
Mr.Brennan. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. Did you and your wife discuss any aspects of the assassination and your being present, more or less, at the scene of the assassination?
Mr.Brennan. Yes; we discussed it. We talked—I talked of moving her and my grandson, which was living with us at that time and my daughter—moving them out of town somewhere in secrecy.
RepresentativeFord. Why did you talk about moving your wife and your grandson out of town on this afternoon on November 22d?
Mr.Brennan. Because I had already more or less given a detailed description of the man, and I talked to the Secret Service and gave them my statement, and they had convinced me that it would be strictly confidential and all that. But still I felt like if I was the only eyewitness, that anything could happen to me or my family.
So that was just about the length of our discussion of it.
She seemed to think that a person can't get away—wherever they go.
RepresentativeFord. Did you talk to anybody else between 3 p.m., November 22d and the time when one of the law enforcement agents came out and picked you up that day?
Mr.Brennan. Not to tell—not to give any information out.
My wife and I went to the bank in Mesquite that evening, and my daughter was at home. And I told her if anyone called to first have them identify themselves, and find out the nature of their business that they wanted me for, and if it was the FBI or the Secret Service, to tell them where they could contact me.
And so we were in the bank, I believe, talking to the vice president that evening. My daughter called and said Mr. Sorrels had called, and that he had requested her to get the word to me to call him. And she called me at the bank, and then I asked the secretary to get the number for me. And I called Mr. Sorrels, and Mr. Sorrels told me there would be a man to pick me up at 6 o'clock promptly.
RepresentativeFord. 6 p.m., November 22d.
Mr.Brennan. Yes; that is right.
RepresentativeFord. And he did pick you up, and you did go down to the police station?
Mr.Brennan. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. When you got back from the police station, did you have any further conversation with your wife about what you saw in the police station?
Mr.Brennan. Yes. But I don't believe I explained to her full details. She probably remembers whether I did or not, but I don't. I believe I just told her that I would not identify, make positive identification. I believe that is all I told her.
Mr.Belin. That you would not, or that you could not?
Mr.Brennan. I believe I told her I would not.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing?
Mr.Brennan. No, other than light, and a khaki color—maybe in khaki. I mean other than light color—not a real white shirt, in other words. If it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side.
Mr.Belin. I am handing you what the court reporter has marked as Commission Exhibit 150.
Does this look like it might or might not be the shirt, or can you make at this time any positive identification of any kind?
Mr.Brennan. I would have expected it to be a little lighter—a shade or so lighter.
Mr.Belin. Than Exhibit 150?
Mr.Brennan. That is the best of my recollection.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Could you see the man's trousers at all?
Do you remember any color?
Mr.Brennan. I remembered them at that time as being similar to the same color of the shirt or a little lighter. And that was another thing that I called their attention to at the lineup.
Mr.Belin. What do you mean by that?
Mr.Brennan. That he was not dressed in the same clothes that I saw the man in the window.
Mr.Belin. You mean with reference to the trousers or the shirt?
Mr.Brennan. Well, not particularly either. In other words, he just didn't have the same clothes on.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Brennan. I don't know whether you have that in the record or not. I am sure you do.
Mr.Dulles. Any further questions?
I guess there are no more questions, Mr. Belin.
Mr.Belin. Well, sir, we want to thank you for your cooperation with the Commission.
Mr.Dulles. Thank you very much for coming here.
Mr.Belin. Our next witness is Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams.
Mr.Dulles. Mr. Williams, the purpose of the hearing today is to take the testimony of you and certain others whose names are mentioned here.
You and the other witnesses were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.
You will be asked to provide the Commission with your knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Dulles. Would you rise, sir?
Do your swear that the evidence you will give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Williams. Yes, I do.
Mr.Ball. Mr. Williams, how old are you?
Mr.Williams. I am 20 years old.
Mr.Ball. Where do you live?
Mr.Williams. I live in Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Ball. What is your address?
Mr.Williams. 1502 Avenue B, Apartment B.
Mr.Ball. Are you married?
Mr.Williams. Yes, I am.
Mr.Ball. Where were you born?
Mr.Williams. I was born in Carthage, Tex.
Mr.Ball. Did you go to school in Texas?
Mr.Williams. Yes, I did.
Mr.Ball. How far through school?
Mr.Williams. All the way.
Mr.Ball. Graduated from high school?
Mr.Williams. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Williams. Marshall, Tex., and I finished high school summer course in Dallas, Texas, Madison High.
Mr.Ball. What year did you get out of high school?
Mr.Williams. 1962.
Mr.Ball. And where did you go to work after that?
Mr.Williams. I went to work at Marriott's Motor Hotel.
Mr.Ball. What did you do there?
Mr.Williams. Well, I started off as a dishwasher. Then they put me on as a fry cook.
Mr.Ball. And how long did you stay there?
Mr.Williams. About 6 or 7 months.
Mr.Ball. Then where did you go to work?
Mr.Williams. I went to work at Union Terminal Building, baggage department.
Mr.Ball. How long did you work there?
Mr.Williams. I worked there about a year.
Mr.Ball. What kind of work did you do there?
Mr.Williams. I was a mail separator.
Mr.Ball. Then where did you go?
Mr.Williams. Then I found this job at the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr.Ball. When did you get that job?
Mr.Williams. Around about September 8th.
Mr.Ball. What year?
Mr.Williams. 1963.
Mr.Ball. How did you happen to go there to get the job?
Mr.Williams. Well, my wife was expecting, and I just wanted a day job—I was working at night. So I just went looking for a day job, and I happened to come down that way.
Mr.Dulles. Were you going to school in the daytime?
Mr.Williams. No.
Mr.Dulles. This is after you finished school?
Mr.Williams. All this took place after I finished school.
Mr.Ball. You finished school when?
Mr.Williams. 1962.
Mr.Ball. And you had thesethree——
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; and I had a part-time job at a construction company. I don't remember the name of it. But it was just for about a week.
Mr.Ball. When you were going to school?
Mr.Williams. No. That was the same time I was working at Marriott's Motel.
Mr.Ball. Did you work while you went to school?
Mr.Williams. I delivered the Dallas morning newspaper sometimes, and little odd jobs.
Mr.Ball. Well, did anybody tell you you might get a job at the Texas School Book Depository before you went down there?
Mr.Williams. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. You were just looking for a job?
Mr.Williams. I just put in applications everywhere.
Mr.Ball. What kind of work did you do when you first went with the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Williams. I think the first day I started work there they started me off as a wrapper. Then the fellows told me that I had qualifications to be a checker, so they put me on as a checker there.
Mr.Ball. What are you doing now?
Mr.Williams. At the present time I do anything—check, pack, fill orders, anything.
Mr.Ball. When you went to work there, did you work at the building on the corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr.Williams. No, sir. The first time I went there I was hired on at the other warehouse, the lower part of Houston Street.
Mr.Ball. By lower part, do you mean north of the main building?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir. Down further, the big white building.
Mr.Ball. That is sort of a warehouse?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You went to work there. That is about a block, a block and a half north?
Mr.Williams. A block and a half.
Mr.Ball. North of the corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And how long did you work at that place?
Mr.Williams. Well, I worked there until business began to get slow. I think that was—it was before November. I think it was some time during October. I am not sure.
Mr.Ball. And what did they put you to work at at that time?
Mr.Williams. They called me up to help lay a floor on the fifth floor, they wanted more boards over it. As I say, business was slow, and they were trying to keep us on without laying us off at the time.
So I was using the saw, helping cut wood and lay wood.
Mr.Ball. You were laying a wood floor over the old floor?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. On the fifth floor?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And when you finished on the fifth floor, what did you do?
Mr.Williams. After we finished on the fifth floor, we started to move up to the sixth floor. But at the time we didn't complete the sixth floor. We only completed just a little portion of it.
Mr.Ball. By the time, you are talking about November 22d?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Before November 22d, how long had you been laying floor in the building at Houston and Elm?
Mr.Williams. Before November 22d, I think we had been working on the fifth floor, I think, about 3 weeks. I think altogether I had been up there just about 4 weeks, I think.
Mr.Ball. And how long had you been on the sixth floor before—how long have you been working on the sixth floor before November 22d?
Mr.Williams. Let's see. Before November 22d, I think it might have been 2 days—it might have been 2 days. I would say about 2 days, approximately 2 days.
Mr.Ball. Before you started to lay the floor, did you have to move any cartons?
Mr.Williams. Yes; we did.
Mr.Ball. From what part of the sixth floor did you move the cartons?
Mr.Williams. We moved cartons from, I believe, the west side of the sixth floor to the east side of the sixth floor, because I think there was a vacancy in there.
Mr.Ball. Clear over to the east side?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Were there cartons stacked up between the west side and the east side—were there cartons on the floor?
Mr.Williams. Yes; there was.
Mr.Ball. After you moved the cartons, then did you start laying the floor?
Mr.Williams. After we moved the cartons, we started laying the floor.
Then we had to move the cartons.
As we go we would move cartons to vacate the space, so we could lay the floor.
Mr.Ball. On November 22d, what time did you go to work?
Mr.Williams. November 22d, I went to work at 8 o'clock.
Mr.Ball. Were you late or on time that morning?
Mr.Williams. I believe I was on time that morning. I always get there a little before eight.
Mr.Ball. Did you know Lee Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Williams. I didn't know him personally, but I had seen him working. Never did say anything to anyone. He never did put himself in any position to say anything to anyone.
He just went about his work. He never said anything to me. I never said anything to him.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever have lunch with him?
Mr.Williams. No.
The only time he would come into the lunchroom sometimes and eat a sandwich maybe, and then he would go for a walk, and he would go out. And I assume he would come back. But the only other time he would come in and read a paper or nothing, and laugh and leave again.
Mr.Dulles. But he would never say good morning or good evening?
Mr.Williams. He never would speak to anyone. He was just a funny fellow. I don't know what kind of a fellow he was.
Mr.Ball. Did you notice what he read in the newspaper?
Mr.Williams. I believe one morning I noticed he was reading something about politics, and as he was reading this he acted like it was funny to him. He would read a paragraph or two, smile, or laugh, then throw the paper down and get up and walk out.
RepresentativeFord. Where did this go on?
Mr.Williams. This was going on in what we call the domino room. This is where we would eat our lunch and play dominoes. Some fellow would bring newspapers, to read the sports or something. He never would read the sports.
Mr.Ball. The domino room is a little recreation room on the first floor?
Mr.Williams. Yes; it is.
Mr.Ball. Now, you see the map there which has been marked Commission Exhibit 362. Will you point on that map the location of the domino room?
Mr.Dulles. Would it be easier if we put the map up there, and then everybody could see.
Mr.Williams. In the front entrance—I could explain the way I know the best.
As I said, this would be the main entrance from Elm Street. Well, this would be—the domino room is in the same line with Mr. Shelley's office, and Mr. Truly's office. The domino room would be right in here. Because two bathrooms, a large one and a small one right in this vicinity here.
Mr.Ball. That is marked on the map—the domino room is marked on the map as rec room, and the toilet is shown there?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir. And there is a small one on the other side.
Mr.Ball. That is on Exhibit 362.
Mr.Dulles. What floor is this we are looking at now?
Mr.Williams. That is the first floor.
RepresentativeFord. And it was in the rec room or domino room where you saw Oswald read the paper on this occasion?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Dulles. And you said he read some of it to you and smiled about it?
Mr.Williams. No; he didn't read it to me. We were waiting turns to play dominoes, and I happened to glance over. And I just noticed what he was reading.
Mr.Ball. Now, this morning, did you see Oswald on the floor at any time?
Mr.Williams. This morning of November 22d?
Mr.Ball. 22d.
Mr.Williams. The morning of November 22d Oswald was on the floor. The only time I saw him that morning was a little after eight, after I had startedworking. As usual, he was walking around with a clipboard in his hands, I believe he was.
Mr.Ball. That is on the first floor?
Mr.Williams. Yes. He had a clipboard in his hand.
Mr.Ball. That is the only time you saw him that morning?
Mr.Williams. That is the only time I saw him that morning. I saw him again between 11:30 and maybe 10 until 12:00.
Mr.Ball. We will come to that in a moment.
Where did you work that morning?
Mr.Williams. That morning I worked on the sixth floor. I think we went directly up to the sixth floor and I got there.
Mr.Ball. And how many were working on the sixth floor with you?
Mr.Williams. I believe there were five.
Mr.Ball. What are their names?
Mr.Williams. Well, Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, and there was a fellow by the name of Danny Arce.
Mr.Ball. He is a Mexican boy?
Mr.Williams. Yes. And a fellow by the name of Billy Lovelady, and myself. And there was a fellow that came up—his name was Harold Norman. He really wasn't working at the time, but there wasn't anything to do, he would come around to help a little bit, and then back down.
Mr.Dulles. Was he in the employ of the company?
Mr.Williams. Yes; he had been working there at the time about 2 years, I think.
Mr.Dulles. But he wasn't on this particular detail on the sixth floor that you are speaking of?
Mr.Williams. Well, he had been helping us on the fifth floor. When the orders would come in, he would go down and help with the orders, and when he didn't have anything else to do he would come back and help us move stock around.
I think that was him.
Mr.Ball. What part of the sixth floor were you working that morning?
Mr.Williams. On the west side.
Mr.Ball. Were you moving stock or laying floor that morning?
Mr.Williams. We were doing both.
Mr.Ball. You were doing both?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. The west side of the sixth floor—you mean the whole west side, or was there a certain part—northwest or southwest or middle?
Mr.Williams. I believe it was the whole west side, because we had to go from window to window—from the elevator to the front window facing Elm Street—we were laying the floor parallel.
Mr.Ball. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor that morning?
Mr.Williams. I am not sure. I think I saw him once messing around with some cartons or something, back over the east side of the building. But he wasn't in the window that they said he shot the President from. He was more on the east side of the elevator, I think, messing around with cartons, because he always just messed around, kicking cartons around.
Mr.Ball. What was his job?
Mr.Williams. His job was an order filler.
Mr.Ball. What do you mean by that?
Mr.Williams. I mean by that an order filler—when orders come in for the State schools mostly, from Austin, he would take the orders and fill the orders.
If the orders called for a certain amount of books, he would fill that order, and turn it in to be checked, to be shipped out.
Mr.Ball. You say he would fill the order. He would go and get books?
Mr.Williams. He would get books. As an order filler you had access to all the floors, all seven floors.
Mr.Ball. And were the cartons that you are talking about containers of books?
Mr.Williams. Yes, they were.
Mr.Ball. Would a checker—would an order filler go to the different floors and take books out of cartons?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir. The order filler would have to, in order to fill the order—he would have to move around to each floor, and take the books that he needs.
Mr.Ball. Then where would he take the books?
Mr.Williams. Down to the first floor.
Mr.Ball. And what was on the first floor?
Mr.Williams. The first floor is where the checkers, the freight, and all—they are checking the books to go out, and also where they wrap the books.
Mr.Ball. And were there certain men down there wrapping books?
Mr.Williams. Certain men wrapping, checking, weighing, et cetera.
Mr.Dulles. Did you have a schedule somewhere posted up so that you knew which books were on which floor when an order came in? You would know whether to go to the sixth floor or what floor to go to get the particular books that were wanted?
Mr.Williams. Well, as I remember, I don't know too much about the building.
Mr.Dulles. You were not in the order filling business?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; not in that department.
At the other building. I was just transferred to that building.
I don't think you really had any schedule to go by, or anything to show you where the books were. You just asked the older fellows that had been there were certain books—if you are looking for a certain book, they would tell you where to find it.
Mr.Ball. This morning, when you think you saw Oswald on the sixth floor, can you tell us about where he was?
Mr.Williams. Well, as I said before, I am not sure that he was really on the sixth floor. But he was always around that way. In the place I think I saw him was as the east elevator come up to the sixth floor, he was on that side of the elevator.
Mr.Ball. I have here a diagram of the sixth floor which I will have marked as Exhibit 483.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 483 for identification.)
Mr.Ball. First of all, this is Houston Street, and the top is north—east and west. Here is Elm Street.
Mr.Williams. This would be the east elevator.
Mr.Ball. This is the east elevator, west elevator and the stairway.
Now, can you take this and show us about where your men were working laying floor on that sixth floor?
Mr.Williams. I wouldsay——
Mr.Ball. First of all, you take this pencil and put it down there, and then we will make the markings afterwards.
Mr.Williams. This is the west side of the building.
Mr.Ball. The area where you were laying floor. Make the outside limits of the area.
Mr.Williams. We were working in this area down there like that.
Mr.Ball. In other words, from there to the west, or where?
Mr.Williams. We were working from the west coming this way, coming to the east. And we had got about just so much.
Mr.Ball. Well, let's draw a dark line down there. This marks the area that you saw?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You had already laid floor from the west side to the dark line?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you were working right around in the dark line area, were you?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. That morning?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, take your pencil and show us about where it was that you saw Oswald that morning.
Mr.Williams. I think I saw Oswald somewhere around in this vicinity.As I was up by this other elevator, I think one time I saw him over there. I am not really sure.
Mr.Ball. You have drawn a line here. This is a sort of general area where you say you saw Oswald, is that right?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. We will mark that as "O". That is on the north side of the floor near the east elevator.
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. We will mark that "O".
Now, these lines you have marked show your area where you were working.
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. We will mark that W-1 and W-1.
Mr.Dulles. Mr. Williams, were all the boxes of books moved out of this area while you were working, or as you finished a part of it, were some boxes put back in?
Mr.Williams. To begin with, I think we were working on the wall first. I don't think we moved too many books in this area. I think we just moved them out and right back in, as I remember.
But I think after we got a little further over, I think we had to move some books. We had to move these books to the east side of this building, over here, and those books—I would say this would be the window Oswald shot the President from. We moved these books kind of like in a row like that, kind of winding them around.
Mr.Dulles. That is moving them from the west towards the east of the building?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. The window was here?
Mr.Ball. That is right.
Mr.Dulles. Any other questions on this?
Mr.Ball. About what time of day do you think it was you saw Oswald, if you can remember? If you can't remember, don't guess.
Mr.Williams. I cannot remember.
Mr.Ball. What time did you knock off work for the lunch hour?
Mr.Williams. Well, approximately—between 11:30 to 12, around in there. I wouldn't say the exact time, because I don't remember the exact time.
Mr.Ball. What time do you usually quit for lunch?
Mr.Williams. We always quit about 5 minutes before time.
During the rush season we quit about 5 minutes before time and washup.
Mr.Ball. Wash your hands and face before you eat lunch?
Mr.Williams. That is right.
Mr.Ball. You say quit 5 minutes before time. What is the time?
Mr.Williams. Five before 12.
Mr.Ball. Did you quit earlier this day?
Mr.Williams. I believe this day we quit about maybe 5 or 10 minutes, because all of us were so anxious to see the President—we quit a little ahead of time, so that we could wash up and we wanted to be sure we would not miss anything.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you go downstairs?
Mr.Williams. We took two elevators down. I mean, speaking as a group, we took two down.
Mr.Ball. Was there some reason you took two down?
Mr.Williams. We always had a little kids game we played racing down with the elevators. And I think one fellow, Charles Givens, had the east elevator, and me, and I think two or three more fellows had the west elevator. And we was racing down.
Mr.Ball. Who was driving the west side elevator?
Mr.Williams. I don't remember exactly who was.
Mr.Ball. You were not?
Mr.Williams. I don't think I was. I don't remember.
Mr.Ball. Who was driving the east side elevator?
Mr.Williams. I think that was Charles Givens.
Mr.Ball. Now, did something happen on the way down—did somebody yell out?
Mr.Williams. Yes; on the way down I heard Oswald—and I am not sure whether he was on the fifth or the sixth floor. But on the way down Oswald hollered "Guys, how about an elevator?" I don't know whether those are his exact words. But he said something about the elevator.
And Charles said, "Come on, boy," just like that.
And he said, "Close the gate on the elevator and send the elevator back up."
I don't know what happened after that.
RepresentativeFord. Had the elevator gone down below the floor from which he yelled?
Mr.Williams. Yes; I believe it was. I assume it was the fifth or the sixth.
The reason I could not tell whether it was the sixth or the fifth is because I was on the opposite elevator, and if you are not thinking about it it is kind of hard to judge which floor, if you started moving.
RepresentativeFord. The elevator did not go back up to the floor from which he yelled?
Mr.Williams. No, sir.
Mr.Dulles. Did he ask the gate be closed on the elevator?
Mr.Williams. I think he asked Charles Givens—I think he said, "Close the gate on the elevator, or send one of the elevators back up."
I think that is what he said.
Mr.McCloy. That is in order that he would have an elevator to come down when he wanted to come down?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. On the 23d of November 1963, you talked to two FBI agents according to the record I have here, Bardwell Odum and Will Griffin, and they reported that you said that as they were going down, that you saw Lee on the fifth floor.
Mr.Williams. I told him the fifth or the sixth. I told him I wasn't sure about it.
Mr.Ball. And were you sure at that time?
Mr.Williams. About which floor it was?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Williams. No; I wasn't.
Mr.Ball. Are you sure today?
Mr.Williams. I am not sure today.
Mr.Ball. But you think it was the fifth or the sixth floor?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Are you sure it was Oswald you talked to?
Mr.Williams. I am sure it was Oswald. I didn't talk to him.
Mr.Ball. But you heard him?
Mr.Williams. I heard him.
Mr.Ball. You went down to the first floor.
What did you do?
Mr.Williams. We went down to the first floor. I think the first thing I did, I washed up, then I went into the domino room where I kept my lunch, and I got my lunch, came back out and went back up.
Mr.Ball. Did you carry your lunch that day?
Mr.Williams. Yes; I did.
Mr.Ball. Do you usually carry your lunch to work?
Mr.Williams. Yes; I do.
Mr.Ball. That was your habit, carrying your lunch?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And that day, on November 22d, how did you carry your lunch from home to work?
Mr.Williams. I carried my lunch from home to work in a brown paper bag. I believe it was size No. 6 or maybe 8—paper bag.
Mr.Ball. Number 6 or 8 size paper bag?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Small bag?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Like you get in the grocery store?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you have in your lunch?
Mr.Williams. I had a chicken sandwich.
Mr.Ball. Describe the sandwich. What did it have in it besides chicken?
Mr.Williams. Well, it just had chicken in it. Chicken on the bone.
Mr.Ball. Chicken on the bone?
Mr.Williams. Yes.
Mr.Ball. The chicken was not boned?
Mr.Williams. It was just chicken on the bone. Just plain old chicken.
Mr.Ball. Did it have bread around it?
Mr.Williams. Yes, it did.
Mr.Ball. Before you went upstairs, did you get anything to drink?
Mr.Williams. I got a small bottle of Dr. Pepper from the Dr. Pepper machine.
Mr.Ball. Did you have anything else in your lunch besides chicken?
Mr.Williams. I had a bag of Fritos, I believe it was.
Mr.Ball. Anything else?
Mr.Williams. No; I believe that was all.
Mr.Ball. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?
Mr.Williams. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr.Ball. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr.Williams. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr.Ball. Did anybody go back?
Mr.Williams. Nobody came back up. So I just left.
Mr.Ball. Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr.Williams. I ate my lunch—I am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe.
Mr.Ball. Facing on what street?
Mr.Williams. Facing Elm Street.
Mr.McCloy. What floor?
Mr.Williams. Sixth floor.
Mr.Dulles. You ate your lunch on the sixth floor?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Dulles. And you were all alone?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you sit on while you ate your lunch?
Mr.Williams. First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler.
Mr.Ball. A two-wheeler truck, you mean?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir. I remember sitting on this two-wheeler.
By that time, I was through, and I got up and I just left then.
Mr.Dulles. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?
Mr.Williams. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing—as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building.
But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
RepresentativeFord. Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all?
Mr.Williams. No, sir.
RepresentativeFord. No difficulty as far as the law is concerned?
Mr.Williams. I have never been inside of a courthouse before.
Mr.Ball. I have an exhibit here marked 484.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 484 for identification.)
Mr.Ball. Do you recognize that?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; I recognize that.
Mr.Ball. What do you see?
Mr.Williams. I see a two-wheeler, a Dr. Pepper bottle, and some boxes in the windows.
Mr.Ball. And is that anywhere near where you were sitting?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir; that is the exact place I was sitting.
Mr.Ball. That is the two-wheeler you were sitting on?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, when you were on the two-wheeler, as you were sitting there, did you have a view, could you see down towards the southeast corner?
Mr.Williams. No, sir; I couldn't see anything as I remember there. About the only thing that I could see from there would be just the top edge of the window, because the boxes were stacked up.
Mr.Ball. The boxes were stacked up high?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Let me show you another picture here.
Mr.Dulles. You are not introducing that at this time?
Mr.Ball. I will. I am going to introduce them all.
Let's go back to the diagram, which is 483. Could you mark on this diagram the window that is shown in this picture 484—that is, the place where you were sitting and eating your lunch?
Mr.Williams. That would be facing Elm Street. I would say right around in this.
Mr.Ball. In other words, you are marking here something between—some area between the third and the fourth window.
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You are not able to tell exactly?
Mr.Williams. No; I am not.
Mr.Ball. The witness has drawn a red rectangle to show the approximate area which runs from about the center of the second row of windows from the southeast corner over to about the fourth pane of windows.
Mr.Williams. I would say about right in here, third or fourth.
Mr.Ball. Third or fourth?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, you have made two marks, so I will identify the last mark. Between the third and fourth, is that right?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. We will mark the rectangle, and we will mark it "W-3" and "W-4" the end of the lines.
Mr.McCloy. What time of day was this, when you were eating your lunch?
Mr.Williams. About 12.
Mr.McCloy. Just 12?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, as you looked towards the southeast corner from where you were sitting, could you see the windows in the southeast corner?
Mr.Williams. In the southeast—that is—the southeast. I really don't remember if I seen anything—it would be just the top edge of the window, as I remember.
Mr.Ball. Did you see anyone else up there that day?
Mr.Williams. No, I did not.
Mr.Ball. How long did you stay there?
Mr.Williams. I was there from—5, 10, maybe 12 minutes.
Mr.Ball. Finish your lunch?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir. No longer than it took me to finish the chicken sandwich.
Mr.Ball. Did you eat the chicken?
Mr.Williams. Yes, I did.
Mr.Ball. Where did you put the bones?
Mr.Williams. I don't remember exactly, but I think I put some of them back in the sack. Just as I was ready to go I threw the sack down.
Mr.Ball. What did you do with the sack?
Mr.Williams. I think I just dropped it there.
Mr.Ball. Anywhere near the two-wheeler?
Mr.Williams. I think it was.
Mr.Ball. What did you do with the Dr. Pepper bottle?
Mr.Williams. Just set it down on the floor.
Mr.Ball. There is a pop bottle that you see in the picture, 484—does that look like anything like the pop bottle that you were drinking from that day?
Mr.Williams. I believe that was the bottle—I believe. I am not sure. But it looks like it.
Mr.Ball. Did you leave the bottle somewhere near the point shown of the bottle shown on 484?
Mr.Williams. I am really not sure about it. I don't think I left it there. I am not sure. I think I left it sitting up on top of the boxes, right to the side of the two-wheeler. As I remember—I am not sure about it. It is possible that I could have put it there.
Mr.Ball. Your memory is that the Dr. Pepper bottle was left on top of the boxes?
Mr.Williams. Beg pardon?
Mr.Ball. Your memory is that you left the Dr. Pepper bottle on top of some of the cartons?
Mr.Williams. As I remember. I am not sure.
Mr.Ball. It is shown there on the floor.
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go when you left there?
Mr.Williams. I went down to the fifth floor.
Mr.Ball. How did you get down there?
Mr.Williams. I took an elevator down.
Mr.Ball. You didn't go down the stairs?
Mr.Williams. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Which elevator did you take?
Mr.Williams. I took the east elevator down.
Mr.Ball. Is that the one that is worked with ahand——
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir. That is the one with the one gate, and works with the hand pedal.
Mr.Ball. How does the other one work?
Mr.Williams. The other one worked by push button. You have two gates to pull. That is the one you can pull two gates on and it will come back up by itself. The east side elevator won't come up unless someone is operating.
Mr.Ball. You took the elevator from the sixth floor to the fifth floor?
Mr.Williams. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where did you intend to go when you left the sixth floor?
Mr.Williams. I intended to stop on the fifth floor, and if there wasn't anyone there, I intended to get out of the building, go outside.
Mr.Ball. Well, you stopped on the fifth floor. Why?
Mr.Williams. Beg pardon?
Mr.Ball. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?
Mr.Williams. To see if there was anyone there.
Mr.Ball. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?
Mr.Williams. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.
Mr.Ball. Did you find anybody there?
Mr.Williams. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman—as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I remember.
Mr.Ball. Now, I want to call your attention to another report I have here.
On the 23d of November 1963, the report of Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, FBI agents, is that you told them that you went from the sixth floor to the fifthfloor using the stairs at the west end of the building. Did you tell them that?