Mrs.Paine. When we got back Marina noticed that the dishes had been cleaned up and put away. I take it back, they had been washed, not put away. And I believe he did some packing.
Mr.Jenner. In anticipation of your returning to Irving, Tex., with Marina?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
I was impressed during these 2 days with his willingness to help with the packing. He did virtually all the packing and all the loading of the things into the car. I simply thought that gentlemanly of him at the time. I have wondered since whether he wasn't doing it by preference to having me handle it.
Mr.Jenner. I was about to ask you your impression in that direction. Did he seem eager to do the packing?
Mrs.Paine. He did, distinctly.
Mr.Jenner. Distinctly eager?
Mrs.Paine. I recall he began as early, you see, as Saturday night and we left Tuesday morning.
Mr.Jenner. And you are aware of the fact he did some packing while you and Marina were on tour?
Mrs.Paine. It couldn't have been Saturday night, because I only arrived on Saturday. More likely it was Sunday. Is Bourbon Street open on Sunday?
Mr.Jenner. Bourbon Street is open all the time.
Mrs.Paine. Then it would have tobe——
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Jenner. Did you have the feeling at the time that he was quite eager to do the packing?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And did you have the feeling it was just a touch out of the ordinary?
Mrs.Paine. It didn't occur to me that it was.
Mr.Jenner. But on reflection now, you think it was out of the ordinary?
Mrs.Paine. On reflection now I think it wasn't simply a gesture of the gentleman.
Mr.Jenner. But at the time it didn't arouse enough interest on your part to have a question in your mind?
Mrs.Paine. No; I would have expected it of other men, but this was the first I saw him taking that much interest.
Mr.Jenner. It did arrest your attention on that score, in any event?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you were there for 2 full days and 3 evenings. Would you tell us, conserving your description in your words, what did you do during these 2 days and 3 nights. When I say "you", I am including all three of you.
Mrs.Paine. Of course, afternoons we usually spent in rest for the children, having all small children, all of us having small children.
Mr.Jenner. Whenever this doesn't include Lee Harvey Oswald would you be good enough to tell us?
Mrs.Paine. When he was not present?
Mr.Jenner. That is right.
Mrs.Paine. My recollection is that he was present most of the weekend. He went out to buy groceries, came in with a cheery call to his two girls, saying, "Yabutchski," which means girls, the Russian word for girls, as he came in the door. It was more like Harvey than I had seen him before. He remembered this time. I saw him reading a pocketbook.
Mr.Jenner. The Commission is interested in his readings. To the best of your ability to recall, tell us. You noticed it now, of course.
Mrs.Paine. Yes. I don't recall the title of it. I do recall that I loaned him a pocketbook at one point. I can't even recall what it was about. But I might if I saw it.
Mr.Jenner. Was it a book on any political subject?
Mrs.Paine. No.
RepresentativeFord. Was it an English book?
Mrs.Paine. But it was in English, unless it was a parallel text of Russian-English short stories, something like that, I can't remember. It might have been Reid's Ten Days That Shook the World, or something like that, but I am not at all certain. I would have thought he would have read that, anyway.
RepresentativeFord. Was it a book that you recall having had with you that summer? TenDays——
Mrs.Paine. It is a book I should still own, and I don't recall for sure whether I have that one.
RepresentativeFord. Ten Days That Shook the World?
Mrs.Paine. I am very shaky in my memory. I had prepared a collection of books for the course in Russian at Saint Marks School, and they included history and literature and English.
RepresentativeFord. But you were still anticipating teaching Russian at Saint Marks School in Irving?
Mrs.Paine. That is right, and this was just part of a bibliography of things of interest that included some of the more historical texts from many points of view regarding Soviet life.
RepresentativeFord. I interrupted you.
Mr.Jenner. I was asking you to tell us in general what was done during those 2 days and 3 nights.
Mrs.Paine. We went out to wash diapers at the local washiteria, and stayed while they were done and went back.
Mr.Jenner. You and Lee?
Mrs.Paine. I don't think that he went. My recollection is that Marina and I went.
Mr.Jenner. He remained home?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you visit with any of their in-laws?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did they visit while you were there?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did they come there?
Mrs.Paine. No. I have already referred to a visit from Mrs. Kloepfer, with her two girls which must have been the day before we left or Monday.
No, Sunday, it must have been Sunday. It wasn't much time altogether, because Sunday was the day before we left.
Mr.Jenner. Is Mrs. Kloepfer a native American?
Mrs.Paine. I have no idea. She speaks natively.
Mr.Jenner. But she does have a command of the Russian language?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, no, no. Her daughter has had 1 year of Russian in college, and was much too shy to begin to say anything, thoroughly overwhelmed by meeting someone who really spoke.
Mr.Jenner. I must have misinterpreted your testimony this morning.
Mrs.Paine. Her daughter had visited in the Soviet Union just recently and had slides that she had taken that summer.
Mr.Jenner. But Mrs. Kloepfer, as far as you are informed, had no command of the Russian language?
Mrs.Paine. Absolutely none. She was the only person I knew to try to contact to ask if she knew or could find anyone in New Orleans who knew Russian, and she said she didn't know anyone, over the phone.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mrs.Paine. And I, therefore, also tried to get Mrs. Blanchard to seek out someone who could talk to Marina.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Blanchard had no command of the Russian language, as far as you knew?
Mrs.Paine. I would be certain she didn't.
Mr.Jenner. Have you described for us generally the course of events in the 2 days and 3 nights you were there?
Mrs.Paine. Well, much of the last portion, some of the last portion of Sunday was spent packing up. It was a very well loaded automobile by then, because I already had a great many of my own, including a boat on the top of the car to which we attached the playpen, stroller, and other things on top. I should describe in detail the packing, which was another thing that made me feel that he did care for his wife.
We left on Monday morning, yes, Monday morning early, the 23d, and it seemed to me he was very sorry to see her go. They kissed goodbye and we got in the car and I started down intending really to go no farther than the first gas station because I had a soft rear tire and I wasn't going to have a flat with this great pile of goods on top of not only my car but my spare, so I went down to the first gas station that was open a couple blocks down, and prepared to buy a tire.
Lee having watched us, walked down to the gas station and talked and visited while I arranged to have the tire changed, bought a new one and had it changed. I felt he wished or thought he should be offering something toward the cost of the tire. He said, "That sure is going to cost a lot, isn't it?" And I said, "Yes; but car owners have to expect that." This is as close as he came to offering financial help. But it was at least a gesture.
Mr.Jenner. Then there was no financial help given you?
Mrs.Paine. There was no financial help.
Mr.Jenner. Given you by Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. In connection with the return of Marina to Irving, Tex.?
Mrs.Paine. And he did not at this time give her, so far as I know, any small change or petty cash to take with her, whereas when he left her in late April to go to my house, she to go to my house, and he to go to New Orleans, he left $10 or so with her. She spent that on incidentals.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, did he ever, during all of the period of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, ever offer any reimbursement financially or anything at all to you?
Mrs.Paine. No; he never offered anything to me.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any discussion between you and him on the subject?
Mrs.Paine. No. As close as we came to such discussion was saying that when they had enough money and perhaps after Christmas they would get an apartment again, and I judged, felt that he was saving money towards renting a furnished apartment for his family.
Mr.Jenner. Now, I used the term "offer." Did he ever offer? Did he in fact ever give you any money?
Mrs.Paine. He in fact never gave me any money, either. He did give Marina.
Mr.Jenner. The one incident of which you are speaking or on other occasions?
Mrs.Paine. There was that one incident in April.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. He did give her, I think, $10, just prior, or some time close to the time of the assassination, because she planned to buy some shoes.
Mr.Jenner. Shoes for herself, or her children?
Mrs.Paine. For herself, flats. But when he gave that to her I am not certain. I do know that we definitely planned to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy those shoes. We did not go.
Mr.Jenner. That is you girls planned to do that?
Mrs.Paine. She and I did; yes.
RepresentativeFord. Mr. Jenner, do you plan to ask questions about the process of packing of the car?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I do. Now, this improvement in the attitude of Lee Harvey Oswald, arrested your deliberate attention—didn't it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it did. It was really the first I had felt any sympathy for him at all.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have any feeling that he, in turn, felt that he might not be seeing Marina any more?
Mrs.Paine. I had no feeling of that whatever.
Mr.Jenner. None whatsoever.
Mrs.Paine. He told me that he was going to try to look for work in Houston, and possibly in Philadelphia; these were the two names he mentioned.
Mr.Jenner. We are interested in that, in this particular phase of the investigation. Did he make that statement in your presence, in the presence of Marina?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. I take it that this was elicited by a discussion of the subject of his going to look for work after you girls had left, is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. About what he would do after we left?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, would you repeat just what he said on that subject?
Mrs.Paine. He told me that he was going to go to Houston to look for work, or possibly to Philadelphia.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything about having any acquaintances or friends in either of those towns?
Mrs.Paine. He did. You recalled to my mind he said he had a friend in Houston.
Mr.Jenner. Did he mention other towns he might undertake to visit?
Mrs.Paine. No; he didn't. Or any other friends.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any inference or did you infer from anything he said or which might have been said in your presence that after you girls left he intended to leave New Orleans? Tolook——
Mrs.Paine. He was definitely planning to leave New Orleans after we left.
Mr.Jenner. Promptly?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You had that definite impression?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And he put it in terms of leaving New Orleans to go to Houston, or what was the other town?
Mrs.Paine. Possibly Philadelphia.
Mr.Jenner. Possibly Philadelphia. Now, during all that weekend, was there any discussion of anybody going to Mexico?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Was the subject of Mexico discussed at any time and in any respect?
Mrs.Paine. Not at any time nor any respect.
Mr.Jenner. On the trip back to Irving, Tex., did Marina say anything on the subject of Mexico?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you girls discuss what Lee was going to do during this interim period?
Mrs.Paine. Only to the extent that he was looking for a job, but I think that discussion, my memory of it comes from a discussion with Lee rather than a discussion with her. I may say that we never talked about any particular time, he would see Marina again.
Mr.Jenner. You did not?
Mrs.Paine. He kissed her a very fond goodbye, both at home and then again at the gas station, and I felt he cared and he would certainly see her. And this I recalled the other night. It should be put in here. As he was giving me this material, I have already mentioned, that indicated his claim to 1 year residencein Texas, I can't remember just what I said that elicited it from him, but some reference to, shall I say that you have gone, or how can I—what shall I say about the husband, where is the husband?
Mr.Jenner. Do the best in your own words.
Mrs.Paine. Shall I say that you have gone away or away looking for work or something? What shall I say about you?
Mr.Jenner. This is Marina?
Mrs.Paine. This is in English now, this one English conversation.
Mr.Jenner. By you?
Mrs.Paine. Apropos of being prepared to admit her to Parkland. I asked, what shall I say about him, that he is gone or what?
He said, "Oh, no, that might appear that I had abandoned her."
And I was glad to hear him say that he didn't at all want it to appear or to feel of himself that he had abandoned her.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything as to what representations you might make to Parkland Hospital and other State authorities in that respect?
Mrs.Paine. No; I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. On the trip back to—may I defer the packing until Representative Ford returns—on the trip back to Irving, Tex., did you and Marina discuss the subject matter of Dee's going to Houston, Tex., or to Philadelphia to look for a job?
Mrs.Paine. No; we didn't.
Mr.Jenner. At any time during the weekend you were in New Orleans or driving from New Orleans to Irving, Tex., was the friend identified, the supposed friend?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. In Houston, identified?
Mrs.Paine. No; I remember wondering if there was one.
Mr.Jenner. You wondered at the time?
Mrs.Paine. I wondered to myself if there was one.
Mr.Jenner. What made you wonder?
Mrs.Paine. I may say, also, I wondered, as I have already indicated for the Commission, I had wondered, from time to time, whether this was a man who was working as a spy or in any way a threat to the Nation, and I thought, "This is the first I have heard anything about a contact. I am interested to know if this is a real thing or something unreal." And waited to see really whether I would learn any more about it. But this thought crossed my mind.
Mr.Jenner. It did? Now, many of my questions are directed towards trying to find out what this man did with his time. When he went job hunting, according to some of the records here, he appeared to return home rather promptly. That is, he would leave in the morning but he would be home before noontime.
Mrs.Paine. Oh?
Mr.Jenner. Did you notice anything of that nature?
Mrs.Paine. I never saw him when he was job hunting. The times in New Orleans, of course, I wasn't there. The times in April he was job hunting from a base of 214 Neely Street, and in October he was operating from the base of the room on Beckley Street. So I never saw him.
Mr.Jenner. So that as far as—this I would like to bring out, Mr. Chairman—as far as your contact with Lee Harvey Oswald as such, Mrs. Paine, your opportunities for knowing what he did with his time were limited, were they not?
Mrs.Paine. They were limited.
Mr.Jenner. That is in the spring, there was this New Orleans period when he was absent in New Orleans altogether during the 2 weeks that Marina was with you?
Mrs.Paine. Right.
Mr.Jenner. It is the period preceding the trip to New Orleans that they lived a little distance from you, and that was in a period of your really becoming more acquainted with them. Were you aware of what Mr. Oswald was doing during the daytime, or evening along in that period of time?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. In the fall when you saw him then for 2 days and 3 nights inthe early fall of 1963, he was out of work. He was at the home substantially all of that time?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You returned to Irving, then, and you didn't see him until he appeared as you testified this morning, on October 4, 1963?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Now, he was in your home from October 4, 1963, until what was it—the 15th of October? Is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. He was not?
Mrs.Paine. Not at all. He was in the home for the weekend of October 4. I then took him to the bus around noon on the 7th, that is a Monday, to the Intercity Bus between Irving and Dallas. You can't walk to it from my house. There is no way to get anywhere from my house unless you use a car.
Mr.Jenner. We are interested in that, also, Mrs. Paine, about his ability to get to your home from whatever means of public transportation there was. Would you be good enough to describe the problems in that connection?
Mrs.Paine. He called on the afternoon of the 4th.
Mr.Jenner. Would you give us the problems first, the physical problems? Where was the bus located? What was the bus terminal? How far was it from your home?
Mrs.Paine. The bus terminal in Irving where you could get a bus going to Dallas was several miles away, 2 to 3 miles away from my home, a 10 minute car ride.
Mr.Jenner. And what means of transportation was there from the bus terminal to your home?
Mrs.Paine. Walking?
Mr.Jenner. Any public transportation.
Mrs.Paine. There was nothing public.
Mr.Jenner. You would have to hitchhike or walk or be driven?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. I take it, then, there were occasions when you would have to go and pick him up at the bus terminal?
Mrs.Paine. I recall at least one such occasion, and that was on the 12th of October, a Saturday, which was the next time he came out.
Mr.Jenner. That was the next time following the October 4 weekend?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When was the first time that you heard, or had any notice of the fact that this man had been in Mexico, or possibly may have been in Mexico?
Mrs.Paine. They are two different questions. I will answer the first one. I heard that he had been in Mexico after the assassination in one of the papers.
Mr.Jenner. Was that the first time?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; that was the first time. Looking back then, with that knowledge, I could see that I might have guessed this from two other things that had happened.
Mr.Jenner. All right, give us them in sequence, please.
Mrs.Paine. One was, I can describe by an incident that took place at our home, I am not certain which weekend, one of the times that Lee was out. He wanted to drill a hole in a silver coin for Marina so she could wear it around her neck, and presumed to use my husband's drill press, which is one of the many things in the garage, and I complained. But he convinced me that he knew how to operate it and knew just what he was doing.
So I said, all right, and he proceeded to drill a hole in this coin, and then Marina showed it to me later. I didn't look closely at it. It wasn't until—although I could have perfectly well in this situation. I did see that it was a foreign coin.
Mr.Jenner. It was a what?
Mrs.Paine. It was a foreign coin. It was not a coin I recognized. It was about the size of a silver dollar, but not as thick, as I remember it. And it was not then until perhaps a week or something less after the assassination when an FBI agent asked me was there anything left in the house that would be pertinent, and he and I went together and looked in the drawer in the roomwhere Marina had been staying, and found there this drilled coin, looked at it closely, and it was a peso, the Republic of Mexico. This is the first I had looked at it closely. Also, with this peso was a Spanish-English Dictionary.
My tendency to be very hesitant to look into other people's things was rather put aside at this point, and I was very curious to see what this book was, and I observed that the price of it, or what I took to be the price was in a corner at the front was not in English money, and at the back in his hand or somebody's hand in small scribble was the notation, "Buy tickets for bull fight, get silver bracelet for Marina" and there in the drawer also was a silver bracelet with the name Marina on it, which I took to be associated with this notation.
Mr.Jenner. Was it inscribed on the bracelet?
Mrs.Paine. It was inscribed, the name Marina. And some picture postcards with no message, just a picture of Mexico City in this dictionary, and these I gave tothe——
Mr.Jenner. Had you seen any of these items in your home at anytime prior to this occasion that you have now described?
Mrs.Paine. None of these items except the peso which I had not noticed to be that, seen it, of course.
Mr.Jenner. Now, that is one incident.
Mrs.Paine. That is one incident. Another refers to a rough draft of a letter that Lee wrote and left this rough draft on my secretary desk.
Mr.Jenner. Would you describe the incident? In the meantime, I will obtain the rough draft here among my notes.
Mrs.Paine. All right. This was on the morning of November 9, Saturday. He asked to use my typewriter, and I said he might.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me. Would you please state to the Commission why you are reasonably firm that it was the morning of November 9? What arrests your attention to that particular date?
Mrs.Paine. Because I remember the weekend that this note or rough draft remained on my secretary desk. He spent the weekend on it. And the weekend was close and its residence on that desk was stopped also on the evening of Sunday, the 10th, when I moved everything in the living room around; the whole arrangement of the furniture was changed, so that I am very clear in my mind as to what weekend this was.
Mr.Jenner. All right, go ahead.
Mrs.Paine. He was using the typewriter. I came and put June in her high-chair near him at the table where he was typing, and he moved something over what he was typing from, which aroused my curiosity.
Mr.Jenner. Why did that arouse your curiosity?
Mrs.Paine. It appeared he didn't want me to see what he was writing or to whom he was writing. I didn't know why he had covered it. If I had peered around him, I could have looked at the typewriter and the page in it, but I didn't.
Mr.Jenner. It did make you curious?
Mrs.Paine. It did make me curious. Then, later that day, I noticed a scrawling handwriting on a piece of paper on the corner at the top of my secretary desk in the living room. It remained there.
Sunday morning I was the first one up. I took a closer look at this, a folded sheet of paper folded at the middle. The first sentence arrested me because I knew it to be false. And for this reason I thenproceeded——
Mr.Jenner. Would you just hold it at that moment. This is for purposes of identification, Mr. Chairman, rather than admission of the document in evidence. I have marked pages 321 and 322 of Commission Document No. 385 generally referred to by the staff as the Gemberling Report. He is an FBI agent. I have now placed that before the witness. You examined that yesterday with me, did you not, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. The document I am now showing you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that a transcript, a literal transcript of the document you saw?
Mrs.Paine. Of course the document was in English, transcribing of what was said; yes.
Mr.Jenner. By transcript I meant that it has been retyped, that it is literal.
Mrs.Paine. That is the document; yes.
Mr.Jenner. That is interesting. You noticed that the document was in English.
Mrs.Paine. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. You saw it. And it was folded at what point, now that you have the transcript of it before you?
Mrs.Paine. At the top of what I could see of the paper. In other words, it was just below the fold. It said, "The FBI is not now interested in my activities."
Mr.Jenner. Is that what arrested your attention?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What did you do?
Mrs.Paine. I then proceeded to read the whole note, wondering, knowing this to be false, wondering why he was saying it. I was irritated to have him writing a falsehood on my typewriter, I may say, too. I felt I had some cause to look at it.
Mr.Jenner. May I have your permission, Mr. Chairman. The document is short. It is relevant to the witness' testimony, and might I read it aloud in the record to draw your attention to it?
Mr.McCloy. Without objection.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, would you help me by reading it, since you have it there.
Mrs.Paine. Do you want me to leave out all the crossedout——
Mr.Jenner. No; I wish you would indicate that too.
Mrs.Paine. "Dear Sirs:
"This is to inform you of events since my interview with comrade Kostine in the Embassy of the Soviet Union, Mexico City, Mexico."
(Discussion off the record.)
Mrs.Paine. He typed it early in the morning of that day because after he typed it we went to the place where you get the test for drivers. It was that same day.
Mr.Jenner. It was election day and the driver's license place was closed, is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And that was November 9?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now you have reached the point where you are reading the letter on the morning of November 10.
Mrs.Paine. That is right; after I had noticed that it lay on my desk the previous evening.
"I was unable to remain in Mexico City (because I considered useless—)"—because—it is crossed out.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. In this transcript wherever there are words stricken out, the transcriber has placed those words in parenthesis and transcribed the words, but then has written the words "crossed out" to indicate in the original the words crossed out.
Proceed, Mrs. Paine.
Mrs.Paine. "Indefinitely because of my (visa—crossed out) Mexican visa restrictions which was for 15 days only.
"(I had a—crossed out) I could not take a chance on applying for an extension unless I used my real name so I returned to the U.S.
"I and Marina Nicholyeva are now living in Dallas, Texas. (You all ready ha—crossed out).
"The FBI is not now interested in my activities in the progressive organization FPCC of which I was secretary in (New Orleans, La.—crossed out) New Orleans, Louisiana since I (am—crossed out) no longer (connected with—crossed out) live in that state.
"(November the November—crossed out) the FBI has visited us here in Texas on November 1st. Agent of the FBI James P. Hasty warned me that if I attempt to engage in FPCC activities in Texas the FBI will again take an 'interest' in me. The agent also 'suggested' that my wife could 'remain in the U.S. underFBI protection', that is, she could (refuse to return to the—crossed out) defect from the Soviet Union. Of course I and my wife strongly protested these tactics by the notorious FBI.
"(It was unfortun that the Soviet Embassy was unable to aid me in Mexico City but—crossed out) I had not planned to contact the Mexico City Embassy at all so of course they were unprepared for me. Had I been able to reach Havana as planned (I could have contacted—crossed out) the Soviet Embassy there (for the completion of would have been able to help me get the necessary documents I required assist me—crossed out) would have had time to assist me, but of course the stuip Cuban consule was at fault here. I am glad he has since been replaced by another."
Mr.Jenner. Now I would like to ask you a few questions about your reaction to that. You had read that in the quiet of your living room on Sunday morning, the 10th of November.
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. And there were a number of things in that that you thought were untrue.
Mrs.Paine. Several things I knew to be untrue.
Mr.Jenner. You knew to be untrue. Were there things in there that alarmed you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I would say so.
Mr.Jenner. What were they?
Mrs.Paine. To me this—well, I read it and decided to make a copy.
Mr.Jenner. Would having the document back before you help you?
Mrs.Paine. No, no. I was just trying to think what to say first. And decided that I should have such a copy to give to an FBI agent coming again, or to call. I was undecided what to do. Meantime I made a copy.
Mr.Jenner. But you did have the instinct to report this to the FBI?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you made a copy of the document?
Mrs.Paine. And I made a copy of the document which should be among your papers, because they have that too. And after having made it, while the shower was running, I am not used to subterfuge in any way, but then I put it back where it had been and it lay the rest of Sunday on my desk top, and of course I observed this too.
Mr.Jenner. That is that Lee didn't put it away, just left it out in the room?
Mrs.Paine. That he didn't put it away or didn't seem to care or notice or didn't recall that he had a rough draft lying around. I observed it was untrue that the FBI was no longer interested in him. I observed it was untrue that the FBIcame——
Mr.Jenner. Why did you observe that that was untrue?
Mrs.Paine. Well, the FBI came and they asked me, theysaid——
Mr.Jenner. Had the FBI been making inquiries of you prior to that time?
Mrs.Paine. They had been twice.
Mr.Jenner. November 1and——
Mrs.Paine. November 1, and they told me the 5. I made no record of it whatever.
Mr.Jenner. But it was a few days later?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; a few days later. And the first visit I understood to be a visit to convey to Marina that if any blackmail pressure was being put upon her, because of relatives back home, that she was invited, if she wished, to talk about this to the FBI. This is a far cry from being told she could defect from the Soviet Union, very strong words, and false both.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever hear anything at all insofar as the FBI is concerned reported to you by Marina or Lee Harvey Oswald during all of your acquaintance with either of them of any suggestion by the FBI or anybody else that Marina defect in that context to the United States?
Mrs.Paine. No, absolutely not.
Mr.Jenner. Or anything of similar import?
Mrs.Paine. Nothing of similar import.
Mr.Jenner. I limited it to the FBI. Any agency of the Government of the United States?
Mrs.Paine. Nothing of that sort.
Mr.Jenner. And did you see or observe anything during all of that period of your acquaintance, which stimulated you to think at all or have any notion that any agency of the Government of the United States was seeking to induce her to defect?
Mrs.Paine. To the United States?
Mr.Jenner. To the United States.
Mrs.Paine. No, and her terminology in view of it was so completely different from such stereotyped and loaded words that I was seeing as I read this. What I was most struck with was what kind of man is this.
Mr.Jenner. Is who?
Mrs.Paine. Why is Lee Oswald writing this? What kind of man? Here is a false statement that she was invited to defect, false statement that the FBI is no longer interested, false statement that he was present, "they visited I and my wife."
Mr.Jenner. Was he present?
Mrs.Paine. He was not present. False statement that "I and my wife protested vigorously." Having not been present he could not protest.
Mr.Jenner. He was not present when the FBI interviewed you on November 1. Was Marina present then?
Mrs.Paine. She was present.
Mr.Jenner. And was Marina present when the FBI came later on November 5?
Mrs.Paine. She came into the room just after basically the very short visit was concluded.
Mr.Jenner. The second interview was a rather short one?
Mrs.Paine. The second interview was conducted standing up. He simply asked me did I know the address. My memory had been refreshed by him since.
Mr.Jenner. The first interview, however, was a rather lengthly one?
Mrs.Paine. But it was not strictly speaking an interview.
Mr.Jenner. What was it?
Mrs.Paine. It was, as Mr. Hosty has described to me later, and I think this was my impression too of it at the time, an informal opening for confidence. He presented himself. He talked. We conversed about the weather, about Texas, about the end of the last World War and changes in Germany at the time.
He mentioned that the FBI is very careful in their investigations not to bring anyone they suspect in public light until they have evidence to convict him in a proper court of law, that they did not convict by hearsay or public accusation.
He asked me, and here I am answering why I thought it was false to say the FBI is no longer interested in Lee Oswald; he asked first of all if I knew did Lee live there, and I said "No." Did I know where he lived? No, I didn't, but that it was in Dallas.
Did I know where he worked? Yes, I did.
And I said I thought Lee was very worried about losing this job, and the agent said that well, it wasn't their custom to approach the employer directly. I said that Lee would be there on the weekend, so far as I knew, that he could be seen then, if he was interested in talking to Lee.
I want to return now to the fact that I had seen these gross falsehoods and strong words, concluding with "notorious FBI" in this letter, and gone to say I wondered whether any of it was true, including the reference to going to Mexico, including the reference to using a false name, and I still wonder if that was true or false that he used an assumed name, though I no longer wonder whether he had actually gone.
Mr.Jenner. There was a subsequent incident in which you did learn that he used an assumed name, was there not?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, a week later.
Mr.Jenner. We will get to that in a moment. But wasthis——
Mrs.Paine. But this was the first indication I had that this man was a good deal queerer than I thought, and it didn't tell me, perhaps it should have but it didn't tell me just what sort of a queer he was. He addressed it "Dear Sirs."It looked to me like someone trying to make an impression, and choosing the words he thought were best to make that impression, even including assumed name as a possible attempt to make an impression on someone who was able to do espionage, but not to my mind necessarily a picture of someone who was doing espionage, though I left that open as a possibility, and thought I'd give it to the FBI and let them conclude or add it to what they knew.
I regret, and I would like to put this on the record, particularly two things in my own actions prior to the time of the assassination.
One, that I didn't make the connection between this phone number that I had of where he lived and that of course this would produce for the FBI agent who was asking the address of where he lived.
Mr.Jenner. I will get to that, Mrs. Paine.
Mrs.Paine. Well, that is regret 1.
Mr.Jenner. I don't want to cover too many subjects at the moment.
Mrs.Paine. But then of course you see in light of the events that followed it is a pity that I didn't go directly instead of waiting for the next visit, because the next visit was the 23d of November.
Mr.Jenner. Now I am going to get to that. What did you do with your copy of the letter?
Mrs.Paine. I put my copy of the letter away in an envelope in my desk. I then, Sunday evening, also took the original. I decided to do that Sunday evening.
Mr.Jenner. He had left?
Mrs.Paine. No, he had not left.
Mr.Jenner. He had not left?
Mrs.Paine. I asked the gentlemen present, it included Michael, to come in and help me move the furniture around. I walked in and saw the letter was still there and plunked it into my desk. We then moved all the furniture. I then took it out of the desk and placed it.
Mr.Jenner. When did you take it out of the desk?
Mrs.Paine. I don't think he knew that I took it. Oh, that evening or the next morning, I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. And this was the 10th of November?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever have any conversation with him about that?
Mrs.Paine. No. I came close to it. I was disturbed about it. I didn't go to sleep right away. He was sitting up watching the late spy story, if you will, on the TV, and I got up and sat there on the sofa with him saying, "I can't speak," wanting to confront him with this and say, "What is this?" But on the other hand I was somewhat fearful, and I didn't know what to do.
RepresentativeFord. Fearful in what way?
Mrs.Paine. Well, if he was an agent, I would rather just give it to the FBI, not to say "Look, I am watching you" by saying "What is this I find on my desk."
Mr.Jenner. Were you fearful of any physical harm?
Mrs.Paine. No; I was not.
RepresentativeFord. That is what I was concerned about.
Mrs.Paine. No; I was not, though I don't think I defined my fears. I sat down and said I couldn't sleep and he said, "I guess you are real upset about going to the lawyer tomorrow."
He knew I had an appointment with my lawyer to discuss the possibility of a divorce the next day, and that didn't happen to be what was keeping me up that night, but I was indeed upset about the idea, and it was thoughtful for him to think of it. But I let it rest there, and we watched the story which he was interested in watching. And then I excused myself and went to bed.
Mr.Jenner. What did you do ultimately with your draft of the letter and the original?
Mrs.Paine. The first appearance of an FBI person on the 23d of November, I gave the original to them. The next day it probably was I said I also had a copy and gave them that. I wanted to be shut of it.
Mr.Jenner. So I take it, Mrs. Paine, you did not deliver either the originalor the copy or call attention to the original or the copy with respect to the FBI.
Mrs.Paine. Prior.
Mr.Jenner. Prior to the 23d did you say?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And what led you to hold onto this rather provocative document?
Mrs.Paine. It is a rather provocative document. It provoked my doubts about this fellow's normalcy more than it provoked thoughts that this was the talk of an agent reporting in. But I wasn't sure.
I of course made no—I didn't know him to be a violent person, had no thought that he had this trait, possibility in him, absolutely no connection with the President's coming. If I had, hindsight is so much better, I would certainly have called the FBI's attention to it. Supposing that I had?
Mr.Jenner. If the FBI had returned, Mrs. Paine, as you indicated during the course of your meeting with the FBI November 1, would you have disclosed this document to the FBI?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, I certainly think so. This was not something I was at all comfortable in having even.
Mr.Jenner. Were you expecting the FBI to return?
Mrs.Paine. I did expect them to come back. As I say, I had said that Lee was here on weekends and so forth. It might have been a good time to give them this document. But as far as I knew, and I know now certainly, they had not seen him and they were still interested in seeing him.
RepresentativeFord. How did you copy the note?
Mrs.Paine. Handwritten.
RepresentativeFord. Handwritten?
Mrs.Paine. I perhaps should put in here that Lee told me, and I only reconstructed this a few weeks ago, that he went, after I gave him—from the first visit of the FBI agent I took down the agent's name and the number that is in the telephone book to call the FBI, and I gave this to Lee the weekend he came.
Mr.Jenner. You gave it to Lee?
Mrs.Paine. I gave it to Lee.
Mr.Jenner. What weekend was that?
Mrs.Paine. I am told that came out on the 1st of November, so that would have been the weekend of the 2d, the next day.
Mr.Jenner. You have your calendar there. The 1st of November is what day of the week?
Mrs.Paine. It is a Friday. Then he told me, it must have been the following weekend, that same weekend of the 9th.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything when you gave him Agent Hosty's name on the telephone?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Nothing at all?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall anything Lee said. I will go on as to the recollections that came later. He told me that he had stopped at the downtown office of the FBI and tried to see the agents and left a note. And my impression of it is that this notice irritated.
Mr.Jenner. Irritating?
Mrs.Paine. Irritated, that he left the note saying what he thought. This is reconstructing my impression of the fellows bothering him and his family, and this is my impression then. I couldn't say this was specifically said to him later.
Mr.Jenner. You mean he was irritated?
Mrs.Paine. He was irritated and he said, "They are trying to inhibit my activities," and I said, "You passed your pamphlets," and could well have gone on to say what I thought, but I don't believe I did go on to say, that he could and should expect the FBI to be interested in him.
He had gone to the Soviet Union, intended to become a citizen there, and come back. He had just better adjust himself to being of interest to them for years to come.
Mr.Jenner. What did he say to that?
Mrs.Paine. Now as I say, this I didn't go on to say. This was my feeling.
I didn't actually go on to say this. I did say, "Don't be inhibited, do what you think you should." But I was thinking in terms of passing pamphlets or expressing a belief in Fidel Castro, if that is why he had, I defend his right to express such a belief. I felt the FBI would too and that he had no reason to be irritated. But then that was my interpretation.
Mr.Jenner. Have you given all of what he said and what you said, however, on that occasion?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. I will just go on to say that I learned only a few weeks ago that he never did go into the FBI office. Of course knowing, thinking that he had gone in, I thought that was sensible on his part. But it appears to have been another lie.
Mr.Jenner. I will return to that FBI visit in a moment. I want to cover that as a separate subject.
Representative Ford is interested in another subject. I would like to return to the day or the period that your station wagon was being parked just before you took off. You have already testified to the fact, either earlier this afternoon or late this morning, that Lee Harvey Oswald appeared to be quite active in doing packing.
Mrs.Paine. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Of household wares or goods that were being taken back to Irving, Tex. Were you present when the station wagon was loaded with the various materials?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, I was present for most if not all of that.
Mr.Jenner. Who did that?
Mrs.Paine. He put the things in. I knew that we would spend one night on the road, that there were certain things we would have to get too, and I knew where these were, and he didn't, so that I talked about where these things should be placed, and helped with some of the binding, tying things to the boat on the car rack.
Mr.Jenner. The boat on top of the station wagon?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now would you please tell us what there was in the way of luggage placed in the station wagon?
Mrs.Paine. There again the two large duffels which were heavier than I could move, he put those in.
Mr.Jenner. Describe their appearance, please.
Mrs.Paine. Again stuffed full, a rumply outside.
Mr.Jenner. With what?
Mrs.Paine. Rumply.
Mr.Jenner. Rumply? No appearance of any hard object pushing outwards?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Against the sides or ends of the duffel bags?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. You saw nothing with respect to those duffel bags which might have led you tobelieve——
Mrs.Paine. A board in it, no.
Mr.Jenner. A tent pole, a long object, hard?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Nothing at all?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. And how many pieces of luggage?
Mrs.Paine. Again these same suitcases, 2 or 3, I think 3 including quite a small one, and the little radio.
Mr.Jenner. What about the zipper bag?
Mrs.Paine. That was there. I think so. Oh no, it probably wasn't. I don't recall the zipper bag as being part of that.
Mr.Jenner. I wish you would reflect a little on this because it is important, Mrs. Paine, if you can remember it as accurately as possible.
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall the zipper bag among those things.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall the zipper bag when you arrived in Irving?
Mrs.Paine. I think I saw him arrive with it himself, but I am not certain. No, wait, that may not be because I didn't see him when he first arrived.
Mr.Jenner. When you arrived in Irving, Mrs. Paine, not when he arrived.
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall that. I distinctly recall the duffels because it was all I could do to get them off of the car and set them on the grass until Michael could come and put them into the garage.
Mr.Jenner. Do you distinctly recall the hard-sided luggage you described yesterday?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All of the pieces that you saw?
Mrs.Paine. Well, I don't recall that it was all. I couldn't even recall too well how many went down to New Orleans originally.
Mr.Jenner. Was there more than one?
Mrs.Paine. There was certainly more than one.
Mr.Jenner. Do you think there were more than two?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall specifically.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have a recollection as to whether there was a piece of luggage still apart from the zipper bag, still in the apartment at 4907 Magazine Street when you girls pulled out to go back to Irving?
Mrs.Paine. I have no specific recollection.
Mr.Jenner. Is it fair to say it is your best recollection at the moment that the zipper bag you have described earlier, you described yesterday, was not placed in the station wagon, and did not return with you to Irving?
Mrs.Paine. I do not recall it being in the station wagon.
Mr.Jenner. Now, was there a separate long package of any kind?
Mrs.Paine. I do not recall such a package.
Mr.Jenner. Was there a separate package of any character wrapped in a blanket?
Mrs.Paine. No. There was a basket such as you use for hanging your clothes. It carried exactly that, clothes and diapers, and they weren't as neat as being in suitcases and duffels would imply. There was leftovers stuffed in the corner, clothes and things, but rather open.
Mr.Jenner. So you saw no long rectangular package of any kind or character loaded in or placed in your station wagon?
Mrs.Paine. No, it doesn't mean it wasn't there, but I saw nothing of that nature.
Mr.Jenner. You saw nothing?
Mrs.Paine. I saw nothing.
Mr.Jenner. When you arrived in Irving, Tex., were you present when your station wagon was unpacked?
Mrs.Paine. Marina and I did that with the exception of the duffels.
Mr.Jenner. You did it all yourself and you took out of the station wagon everything in it other than the two duffel bags?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, in the process of removing everything other than the two duffel bags on the occasion on the 24th of September 1963 when you reached Irving, Tex., did you find or see any long rectangular package?
Mrs.Paine. I recall no such package.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see any kind of a package wrapped in the blanket?
Mrs.Paine. Not to my recollection.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see anypackage——
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall seeing the blanket either.
Mr.Jenner. On that occasion?
Mrs.Paine. On that occasion, not until later.
Mr.Jenner. Not until later.
RepresentativeFord. Did you see the blanket in New Orleans?
Mrs.Paine. On the bed or something. I am asking myself. I don't recall it specifically.
Mr.Jenner. Of course we all know the blanket to which we are referring, which I will ask you about in a moment. I might show it to you at the moment, or at least ask you if it is the blanket. I am exhibiting to the witness Commission Exhibit No. 140. Is this blanket familiar to you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, it is.
Mr.Jenner. And give us the best recollection you have when you first saw it.
Mrs.Paine. My best recollection is that I saw it on the floor of my garage sometime in late October.
Mr.Jenner. 1963?
Mrs.Paine. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have a recollection of ever having seen it before that time?
Mrs.Paine. No. I might say also now that I know certainly I have never seen this binding until last night.
Mr.Jenner. When you say "this binding," you are pointing to what appears to be some black binding?
Mrs.Paine. Some hemstitching, it is sewn.
Mr.Jenner. On the edge of the blanket.
Mrs.Paine. Yes. This binding was not apparent, did not show.
Mr.Jenner. You never noticed the binding before, if the binding had always been on it, is that what you mean to say?
Mrs.Paine. When I saw the blanket the binding was not showing.
RepresentativeFord. How carefully did you analyze the blanket on the previous occasions?
Mrs.Paine. I stepped over it. I didn't pick it up or look at it closely.
RepresentativeFord. Didn't turn it over?
Mrs.Paine. No.
RepresentativeFord. Didn't move it?