Mrs.Paine. No, I didn't.
RepresentativeFord. So you only saw one surface more or less?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, only one surface, except I saw that it had been moved.
RepresentativeFord. But you didn't move it yourself?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. In what shape, that is form, was the blanket when you first saw it? And I take it you first saw it in your garage.
Mrs.Paine. That is my recollection.
Mr.Jenner. And it was subsequent to the time that you and Marina had returned to Irving?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you are certain that you did not see the blanket in your station wagon when you arrived in Irving?
Mrs.Paine. I do not recall seeing the blanket in my station wagon.
Mr.Jenner. And you didn't see it in their apartment at 4907 Magazine Street when you were there?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall seeing it there.
Mr.Jenner. Either in the spring or in the fall, is that true?
Mrs.Paine. That is true.
Mr.Jenner. Now tell us—I take it from your testimony that the blanket, when you first saw it in a garage, was in a configuration in the form of a package?
Mrs.Paine. It was a long rectangle shape with the ends tucked in.
Mr.Jenner. Would you be good enough to re-form that blanket so that it is in the shape and the dimension when you first saw it?
Mrs.Paine. About like so.
Mr.Jenner. For the record if you please, Mr. Chairman, the length of the form is just exactly 45 inches, and it is across exactly 12 inches.
RepresentativeFord. That is across lying flat.
Mr.Jenner. Across lying flat, thank you.
Now, what else about the form of the blanket did you notice on the occasion when you first saw it on your garage floor? Anything else?
Mrs.Paine. I recall from either that occasion or another that there were parallel strings around it.
Mr.Jenner. Tied?
Mrs.Paine. Into a bundle, yes, 3 or 4.
Mr.Jenner. How many were there?
Mrs.Paine. 3 or 4, I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. 3 or 4?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. I suppose it would be four. It would be very well spaced if it was only three, and I think they were closer than that.
Mr.Jenner. Your best recollection now.
Mrs.Paine. Is four.
Mr.Jenner. Rather than rationalization.
Mrs.Paine. Yes, there were four.
Mr.Jenner. There were four string ties across the 12-inch side of the blanket. Were those string ties pulled so they seemed to hold something inside the blanket?
Mrs.Paine. They didn't seem particularly tight, but then I don't have a strong recollection of them prior to the 22d.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever pick up that package?
Mrs.Paine. No, I never did.
Mr.Jenner. That was wrapped in the blanket. Did you ever have any discussion with Marina Oswald about the package in your garage?
Mrs.Paine. Not until the afternoon of the 22d.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see anybody move it about your garage at any time?
Mrs.Paine. No, I did not see anyone move it.
Mr.Jenner. And how long after you returned to Texas did you notice that package in your garage?
Mrs.Paine. I said I thought it was late October perhaps. I wouldn't be at all certain about when I first noticed it.
Mr.Jenner. And did you notice from time to time that it was in a different position or places in your garage?
Mrs.Paine. I recall two places I saw it.
Mr.Jenner. And the first was where?
Mrs.Paine. Over near—the radial saw, what do you call it, buzz saw?
Mr.Jenner. Bandsaw.
Mrs.Paine. No, buzz saw.
Mr.Jenner. Oh yes, a disc type, a buzz saw, near the buzz saw. Then on the second occasion when you saw it, where was it?
Mrs.Paine. Over near the work bench in front of part of the work bench, one end extending toward the bandsaw.
Mr.Jenner. And on both of those occasions was the package lying flat on the floor or was it upended?
Mrs.Paine. Flat on the floor.
Mr.Jenner. And you never had any curiosity with respect to it to lead you to step on it or feel it in any respect?
Mrs.Paine. No, I didn't.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have a lot of debris or articles in the garage?
Mrs.Paine. Indeed, and do yet. Our things and most of the Oswald things were stored there. I have mentioned several pieces of machine tools.
Mr.Jenner. We identified the garage picture at the tail end of yesterday, and I think the Chairman is seeking it.
Mr.McCloy. I am trying to find it now.
Mrs.Paine. That of course was taken more recently, but it is reasonably typical of its condition at that time too.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Jenner. This is a photograph numbered eight, entitled garage interior, which I have marked with Commission number 429, and I now exhibit that to Mrs. Paine.
Are you familiar with what is depicted in that photograph?
Mrs.Paine. Very.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know when that photograph was taken?
Mrs.Paine. It was taken about 2 weeks ago.
Mr.Jenner. Were you present?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And does it accurately depict everything that was there and in its relative position at the time the picture was taken?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And it is your garage?
Mrs.Paine. It is.
Mr.Jenner. Would you locate on that, and I would like to have you place an X at the point in that picture that you first saw the package?
Mrs.Paine. Underneath that box.
Mr.Jenner. All right. You have written an arrow or X next to "on floor" and it is underneath the box that is on the floor.
Mrs.Paine. It was in front as I recall it; this was the buzz saw I was talking about, right here.
Mr.Jenner. Right here the witness is pointing to the right hand upper middle section of the photograph.
Mr.Dulles. Is this the first location of the package?
Mrs.Paine. It was over on that side of the garage, towards the dooror——
Mr.Dulles. The first location of it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Toward what door, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Paine. Toward the front of the garage.
Mr.Jenner. Where did you see it on the second occasion?
Mrs.Paine. Part of it in front of this work bench, one right under this box here.
Mr.Jenner. Put a double X here, between this workbench and this bandsaw.
Mrs.Paine. On the floor.
Mr.Jenner. The workbench and the bandsaw to which the witness is pointing are on the left hand side of the photograph, the bandsaw being about the upper middle. Is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. The package was farther to the interior from the bench.
Mr.Jenner. It was toward the back rather than toward the door?
Mrs.Paine. It was the other side of the bandsaw so it was farther to the interior than its first location.
Mr.Jenner. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 429 the document which the witness has identified which in turn was identified as Commission Exhibit 429.
Mr.McCloy. It will be admitted.
(The photograph referred to, previously identified as Commission Exhibit No. 429, was received in evidence.)
Mr.Jenner. For the record, I am placing the rifle in the folded blanket as Mrs. Paine folded it. This is being done without the rifle being dismantled.
May the record show, Mr. Chairman, that the rifle fits well in the package from end to end, and it doesnot——
Mrs.Paine. Can you make it flatter?
Mr.Jenner. No; because the rifle is now in there.
Mrs.Paine. I just meanthat——
Mr.Jenner. Was that about the appearance of the blanket wrapped package that you saw on your garage floor?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; although I recall it as quite flat.
Mr.Jenner. Flatter than it now appears to be?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. But it is not a clear recollection.
Mr.Jenner. You have a firm recollection that the package you saw was of the length?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, definitely.
Mr.Jenner. That is 45 inches, approximately. You had no occasion when you stepped on thepackage——
Mrs.Paine. I stepped over it.
Mr.Jenner. You always stepped over it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; until the afternoon of the 22d.
Mr.Jenner. By accident or otherwise, did you happen to come in contact with it?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. You don't know whether there was anything solid or hard in it?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Dulles. Did it look about the way this package looks?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.McCloy. Except for the fact it had some cord around it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. When it had some cord around it, did the way it was tied pull it in or distort the shape?
Mrs.Paine. No; it didn't distort the shape.
RepresentativeFord. About the same shape even with the cord?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Dulles. The cords weren't pulled tight?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. They were relatively loosely tied?
Mrs.Paine. I recall this definite shape.
Mr.Jenner. To hold the blanket in that form rather than to hold the contents of the package firm, is that your impression?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.McCloy. Are you going to ask about the husband's testimony in connection with the moving of the package?
Mr.Jenner. I did not intend to.
Mr.McCloy. I was not present but your husband testified he had moved the blanket from time to time but had not opened it. Did he ever refer to it? Did he ever speak to you about having had to move it while hewas——
Mrs.Paine. Not until after the assassination.
Mr.McCloy. Not until after the assassination but before the assassination he had not complained about its being there or any difficulty in moving it?
Mrs.Paine. No; he did not mention it, and I was not present when he moved it.
RepresentativeFord. Was he the person who used these various woodworking pieces of equipment?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. Did he work in the garage?
Mrs.Paine. Well, he had—he made the workbench, and he had worked in the garage when he lived at the home and it has since been somewhat filled up.
RepresentativeFord. But during the time that you and Marina came back he didn't work in the garage?
Mrs.Paine. He did still cut occasionally something on the saws. Indeed, I did, too. I like to make children's blocks. I am trying to think when I last, if it is pertinent, when I used the saw.
Mr.McCloy. Did you use the saw while the blanket was on floor?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I believe so.
Mr.McCloy. You had to step over the blanket to do that?
Mrs.Paine. Or around it.
Mr.McCloy. Or around it. But in the course of your use of the saw you never had the necessity or the occasion to readjust the blanket or move it in any way?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Dulles. Did we get the three locations here? I only see two.
Mr.Jenner. There were only two?
Mrs.Paine. Two that I recall.
Mr.Dulles. Only two.
RepresentativeFord. She made a mistake in the first drawing of the second one.
Mrs.Paine. I touched it by mistake.
RepresentativeFord. I think that ought to be clarified on the record.
Mr.Jenner. On the right-hand side of Commission Exhibit 429 there is an X or an arrow above which is written the words "on floor". That is the first location point at which you saw the package?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. On the left-hand side, the lower half of the photograph there is a double X.
Mrs.Paine. Which I could not put in enough to give the proportion.
Mr.Jenner. You mean in the photograph?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that where you saw the package for the second time?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; as I have described it. The position I have described is more accurate than the XX.
Mr.Jenner. There is a red strip above the table with the tablecloth on it.
Mrs.Paine. That is an accident with my hand.
Mr.Jenner. That was an accident on your part?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. So there are only two locations?
Mrs.Paine. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Now, Mr. Chairman, may I reinsert the rifle in the package, on the opposite side from what it was before, and have the witness look at it?
Mr.McCloy. You may.
We are back on the record.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr. Chairman, I have now placed the opposite side of the rifle to the floor, and may the record show that the package is much flatter. The rifle when inserted firstly was turned on the side of the bolt which operates the rifle which forced it up higher.
Now does the package look more familiar to you, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Paine. I recall it as being more like this, not as lumpy as the other had been.
Mr.Jenner. More in the form it is now?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now directing your attention to the rifle itself, which is Commission Exhibit 139, when did you first see that rifle, if you have ever seen it?
Mrs.Paine. I saw a rifle I judge to have been the same one at the police station on the afternoon of November 22, I don't recall the strap.
Mr.Jenner. You don't recall at the time you saw it on the 22d of November in the police station that it had a strap?
Mrs.Paine. It may well have had one but I don't specifically recall it. I was interested in the sight.
Mr.Jenner. Had you ever seen this rifle prior to the afternoon of November 22?
Mrs.Paine. No.
(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr.Jenner. Now, we do have some particular interest, Mrs. Paine, in the rifle strap. Had you ever had around your house a luggage strap or a guitar strap similar to the strap that appears on Commission Exhibit 139?
Mrs.Paine. No; in fact, I don't recall ever seeing a strap of that nature.
Mr.Jenner. Whether in your home or anywhere else?
Mrs.Paine. Precisely.
Mr.Jenner. And you are unable to identify or suggest its source?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. What do you have in your home, Mrs. Paine, by way of heavy wrapping paper?
Mrs.Paine. I have the sort of paper you buy at the dime store to wrap packages, about 36 inches long, coming in a roll.
Mr.Jenner. Exhibiting to you Commission Exhibit No. 364, is the wrapping paper that you have in your home as heavy as that?
Mrs.Paine. I don't believe it is quite that heavy and it certainly isn't quite that long. Well, it could have been cut the otherway, couldn't it, possibly?
Mr.Jenner. What about its shade, color?
Mrs.Paine. It would be similar to that.
Mr.Jenner. Similar in shade.
Do you have the broad banded sticky tape or sticky tape of this nature?
Mrs.Paine. There is no tape this wide in my home nor to my recollection has there ever been.
Mr.Jenner. You have whole rolls of this tape, of the paper in your home?
Mrs.Paine. A whole roll.
Mr.Jenner. A whole roll?
Mrs.Paine. Which I use for wrapping packages, mailing.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have string in your home that you use in attaching to this wrapping?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you by any chance know the weight of the string that wrapped the blanket package as against the strength or weight of the string that you normally used in your home for packages?
Mrs.Paine. It was similar in weight, rather thin.
RepresentativeFord. Color was the same?
Mrs.Paine. I think it was a whitish color on the blanket and one of the rolls I have is that.
RepresentativeFord. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you say it was a relatively light package string?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Not a rope type?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, no.
Mr.Jenner. And the string you saw on the blanket package was of the lighter weight type andnot——
Mrs.Paine. And of the lighter color too, I think.
Mr.Jenner. And the lighter color.
Now, you and Marina arrived home on the 24th of September, with the packages and contents of the station wagon, and, save the duffel bags, they were moved into your home, and everybody settled down?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When next was there—did you hear from Lee Harvey Oswald at any time thereafter?
Mrs.Paine. Not until the afternoon of the 4th, which I have already referred to.
Mr.Jenner. No word whatsoever from him from the 24th of September?
Mrs.Paine. 23d we left him in New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. 23d of September, until the 4th of October?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct; no word.
Mr.Jenner. By letter, telephone?
Mrs.Paine. Or pigeon.
Mr.Jenner. Or otherwise, anything whatsoever?
Mrs.Paine. No word.
Mr.Jenner. Did you and Marina have discussions in that 10-day period about where Lee was or might be?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. None whatsoever? Did you have any discussion about the fact that you hadn't heard from Lee Harvey Oswald in 14 days or 10 days?
Mrs.Paine. No; we didn't.
Mr.Jenner. No discussion on that at all. What did you and Marina discuss during that 10-day period?
Mrs.Paine. I can't recall which was during that period or which was after; general conversation.
Mr.Jenner. Was it generally small talk, ladies talk about the house?
Mrs.Paine. It was generally what my vocabulary permitted and then she would reminisce, her vocabulary being much larger, about her life in Russia, about the movies she had seen. We talked about the children and their health. We talked about washing, about cooking.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have ladies visit. Did ladies in the neighborhood come and visit?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you go to neighbors homes?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. With Marina?
Mrs.Paine. Again, I can't recall which was before October 4th and which was after, but there was the normal flownonetheless——
Mr.Jenner. And interested people?
Mrs.Paine. Of my visiting at other people's homes and particularly Mrs. Roberts or Mrs. Craig.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Roberts was your next door neighbor and Mrs. Craig was how many doors down or across the street?
Mrs.Paine. She is, you have to drive. You have to drive to her home. She is the young German woman to whom I referred.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. Was there any discussion during this 10-day period of Marina's relations with her husband, Lee?
Mrs.Paine. Not that I recall.
Mr.Jenner. She expressed no concern during this 10-day period, that no word had been heard from Lee?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did she evidence any—did she do or say anything during that period to indicate she did not expect to hear from him during that 10 days period?
Mrs.Paine. No; she did not.
Mr.Jenner. There was nothing?
Mrs.Paine. There was nothing.
Mr.Jenner. Did it come to your mind that it was curious you hadn't heard from Lee Harvey Oswald for 10 whole days?
Mrs.Paine. No; it didn't seem curious. I know he had spent at least 2 weeks looking for work on previous occasions in different cities and I thought he wanted to find something before he communicated.
Mr.Jenner. But in view of the affection that had been evidenced on the day of departure on the 23d, you were not bothered by the fact that not even a telephone call had been received in 10 days?
Mrs.Paine. If he was not in town I wouldn't have at all expected a telephone call because that would have cost him dearly.
Mr.Jenner. He might have made it collect.
Mrs.Paine. I didn't expect that either.
Mr.Jenner. But there was no telephone call, there was no postcard, there was no letter?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. There was nothing?
Mrs.Paine. There could well have been a letter but there was none.
Mr.Dulles. Where did you think he was at this time?
Mrs.Paine. Houston.
Mr.Dulles. Houston, looking for a job? Houston?
Mrs.Paine. Houston, possibly.
Mr.Jenner. Because of the conversation on the morning of the 23d, because of the possibility of his going to Houston or Philadelphia, your frame of mind was that he was either in Houston or Philadelphia?
Mrs.Paine. I thought he probably was in Houston. The Philadelphia reference was very slight.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any reference or discussion between you and Marina during that period of the possibility that he was off in Houston looking for work?
Mrs.Paine. No, there was not.
Mr.Jenner. You are sure there was just no discussion of the subject at all during that whole 10 days period with Marina?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall any discussion of it.
Mr.Jenner. She expressed no concern and you none?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. That nobody had heard from Lee.
All right.
You heard from him on the 4th of October?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you give the Commission the circumstances, the time of day and how it came about?
Mrs.Paine. He telephoned in early afternoon, something after lunchtime.
Mr.Jenner. The phone rang. Did you answer it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And did you recognize the voice?
Mrs.Paine. He asked to speak to Marina.
Mr.Jenner. Whose voice was it?
Mrs.Paine. Well, after he asked to speak to Marina, I was certain it was Lee's.
Mr.Jenner. What did you say?
Mrs.Paine. I said "here" and gave her the phone.
Mr.Jenner. You didn't say "where are you", or "I am glad to hear from you, where have you been?"
Mrs.Paine. No. I thought that was her's to ask. He wished to speak to her and I gave her the phone and, of course, that is what was then asked. I heard her say tohim——
Mr.Jenner. You heard her side of the conversation, did you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
What did you hear her say?
Mrs.Paine. I heard her say, "No, Mrs. Paine, she can't come and pick you up."
Mr.Jenner. Was she speaking in Russian?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Throughout?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When Lee asked for Marina, did he speak in English or Russian?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall. And Marina went on to say that Mrs. Paine, "Ruth has just been to Parkland Hospital this morning to donate blood, she shouldn't be going driving now to pick you up."
Mr.Jenner. Did she refer to you as Mrs. Paine or Ruth?
Mrs.Paine. No; I am trying to make it clear who is being talked about.
Mr.Jenner. I see. You might give your testimony the wrong cast.
Mrs.Paine. No; of course. She referred to me as "Ruth" or "she".
To Junie, she called me Aunt Ruth. To Junie, speaking of me to her little girl, she referred to me as Aunt Ruth.
Mr.Jenner. You are giving the conversation now, the end of it that you heard?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. Then I heard Marina say "Why didn't you call?"
Mr.Jenner. You did hear her say that?
Mrs.Paine. I believe so. I certainly remember her saying it afterward. She hung up and she explained the conversation to me.
Mr.Jenner. What did she say to you?
Mrs.Paine. That he had asked for me to come in to downtown Dallas to pick him up and she said no; he should find his own way.
Mr.Jenner. To come to downtown Dallas?
Mrs.Paine. To come to downtown Dallas to pick him up, and she never asked me whether I wanted to or would have, told him, no; it was an imposition, that I had just given blood at Parkland Hospital.
Mr.Jenner. And you had in fact given blood?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, yes; indeed.
Mr.Jenner. That morning?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. I have a card or the FBI does to that effect. Then she said that he had said that he was at the Y, staying at the Y, and had been in town a couple of days, to which she said, "Why didn't you call right away?", in other words, "why didn't you call right away upon getting to town?"
Then he also asked whether he could come out; this was, of course, during the conversation, and she referred the question to me, could he come out for the weekend, and I said, yes, he could.
Mr.Jenner. This was while she was still talking on the telephone?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. Prior to his asking for a ride.
So then they hung up and I went grocery shopping, andwhen——
Mr.Jenner. You left the home?
Mrs.Paine. I left the home.
Mr.Jenner. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything that was said to you by Marina after she hung up and was relating to you, at least a summary of the conversation with her husband?
Mrs.Paine. I believe it was also said that he wanted to look for work in Dallas. He was here, staying at the Y. Could he come out for the weekend. He planned to look for work in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Did you say anything about—were you stimulated to say anything to Marinaabout any of the subject matters of that conversation as she reported it to you?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. You expressed no response, made no response to her having made a statement to her husband that—of her surprise as to why he hadn't called and if he were just over in Dallas and staying at the Y?
Mrs.Paine. I thought that but I didn't try to put it in Russian.
Mr.Jenner. There was no discussion is all I am getting at.
What did she say as to his coming out by whatever means he could get there? Was there any discussion of that?
Mrs.Paine. It implied whatever means, that he shouldn't ask meto——
Mr.Jenner. He was coming?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. But that you were not going to go to get him?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you left and went to the grocery store or market?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When you returned, was Lee at your home?
Mrs.Paine. He was already there, which surprised me greatly.
Mr.Jenner. Why did it surprise you?
Mrs.Paine. Because I thought he would have to take a public bus to Irving, they run very rarely if at all during the afternoon, and I thought he would have considerable difficulty getting out. I thought it would be at least supper time before he got there.
Mr.Jenner. How much time elapsed between the time you left and the time you returned?
Mrs.Paine. Shopping? Oh, I don't know, perhaps an hour, perhaps a little less.
RepresentativeFord. Where did you go shopping?
Mrs.Paine. The grocery store in the same parking lot where we practiced.
Mr.Jenner. That was three blocks away?
Mrs.Paine. It is a little more than that. These would be long blocks.
Mr.Jenner. Did any conversation ensue as to how he had, by what means he had come from Dallas to Irving?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. He then said that he had hitchhiked out, caught a ride with someone who brought him straight to the door, a Negro man.
Mr.Jenner. To your door?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. To whom he said that he had been away from his wife and child and he was just now getting home, and the man kindly brought him directly to the door.
Mr.Jenner. Where did this conversation take place?
Mrs.Paine. In the home that afternoon.
Mr.Jenner. When you returned to your home, that was in the afternoon, wasn't it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Where was Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. Was he inside the home or outside?
Mrs.Paine. Inside, I believe.
Mr.Jenner. Did any conversation ensue as to where he had been in that 10-day interim?
Mrs.Paine. Where he had been?
Mr.Jenner. Where he had been in the intervening 10 days?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; he said to me that he had been in Houston and that he hadn't been able to find work there and was now going to try in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything about Philadelphia?
Mrs.Paine. Nothing.
Mr.Jenner. From your testimony I gather he did not say anything about Mexico?
Mrs.Paine. No; he did not.
Mr.Jenner. Was Marina present when he stated to you that he had been in Houston looking for work?
Mrs.Paine. That is my recollection of it; yes.
Mr.Jenner. You never had any conversation with her up to the 23d or 22d of November on the subject of whether Lee had or had not been in Mexico?
Mrs.Paine. We never had such a conversation.
Mr.Jenner. Despite your having read that letter on the 10th of November in which he stated that he had been?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. Now there was no occasion in that letter that she may have known that he went any more than there was certain indication to my mind that this was true and not false. Had I looked at the peso, this would have been the only occasion that she knew.
Mr.Jenner. But the fact is, apart from your rationalization now there was no conversation on that subject?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. How long did he remain in your home?
Mrs.Paine. Mondaymorning——
TheChairman. Before you get to that, I want to ask a question about giving the blood that day. Did you give it for a particular person or for a blood bank?
Mrs.Paine. It was for Marina. For each of the persons who come in under county care they ask you to donate two pints of blood, one at a time.
TheChairman. I see. And you donated one pint for her?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
TheChairman. Thank you.
Mr.Jenner. How long did he remain in your home on this visit?
Mrs.Paine. Until Monday morning, the 7th of October, almost noon, in fact, when I took him to an Intercity bus at the Irving bus station.
Mr.Jenner. This is that bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your home?
Mrs.Paine. That same day I gave him a map to assist him in job hunting.
Mr.Jenner. All right. I would like to get to that.
I show you what is in evidence, I don't know whether it is received or not; it is a Commission Exhibit No. 128, and ask you if you have ever seen that before?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I have.
Mr.Jenner. Is that the map to which you now have reference?
Mrs.Paine. I would say it is.
Mr.Jenner. What did you do with the map with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald on this occasion?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall who asked, who mentioned a map first, but, of course, I knew, and he did, that it would be a useful thing to have job hunting. I think he asked if I had a map of the city of Dallas and I said, yes, I did, and I can easily get another at the gas station, one of these.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, it is your clear recollection that this document, Commission Exhibit No. 128, a map, is the map that you gave Lee Harvey Oswald, this was October 7th?
Mrs.Paine. It was certainly this kind of map, whether it is the identical map, I couldn't say for sure, but I much prefer the ENCO map of the city and this is the kind I always get to use. So this is the kind I had in mind.
Mr.Jenner. So, to the best of your recollection, the coloring has been changed a little bit because of attempts to draw fingerprints from it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. But your best recollection now, observing it, is that this is the document?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you examine it carefully and see that there might be something on it that would arrest your attention as your having placed thereon or Lee?
Mrs.Paine. I have examined this carefully and a copy of it.
Mr.Jenner. On other occasions?
Mrs.Paine. On other occasions, and I could not at any time find a marking that I had made.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall having made any markings?
Mrs.Paine. I do not recall having made any markings on this particular map. Sometime on some maps I knew I had made remarks where I was going.
Mr.Jenner. Just for the purpose of the record, may I reverse it, and you see no markings on the reverse side, I take it?
Mrs.Paine. No; which is Fort Worth, not Dallas, isn't it?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; it is.
All right, now tell us about that incident?
Mrs.Paine. The map?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. I have.
Mr.Jenner. That is all there was to it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you suggest, was there any discussion of, particular places of employment?
Mrs.Paine. There was no such discussion.
Mr.Jenner. As to which he might inquire?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. What did he—did you hand him the map?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And was it opened before you and Lee in your discussions?
Mrs.Paine. No, no; we didn't discuss. He said, do I have a map, and I said, yes, I do, you may have it.
Mr.Jenner. You handed it to him, and that was all that occurred?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And did he place it in his pocket or did he go into his room or his and Marina's room and place it there?
Mrs.Paine. He may have already been on his way to the bus station when this conversation occurred and took it with him.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
I notice what appears to be a notation that the document has not as yet been offered in evidence, Mr. Chairman, and I offer in evidence, therefore, as Commission Exhibit No. 128, the document heretofore identified by that exhibit number.
Mr.McCloy. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to, heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 128 for identification, was received in evidence.)
Mr.Jenner. Was Marina present during this discussion of his job hunting?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall. I seem to think we were on our way out already to go in our car to the bus station.
Mr.Jenner. Did Marina accompany you?
Mrs.Paine. No; she did not.
Mr.Jenner. She did not?
Mrs.Paine. She stayed home with the baby. My children probably went with me, I don't recall specifically.
Mr.Jenner. That is the baby, you mean June?
Mrs.Paine. June.
Mr.Jenner. You drove into the bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your home. Did you remain until the bus came along?
Mrs.Paine. I think so.
Mr.Jenner. You saw him depart?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was anything said about where he would reside in Dallas before he left?
Mrs.Paine. I am not certain, but I think he said the Y was rather expensive. He was going to look for a room.
Mr.McCloy. What was the date you took him into the bus station?
Mrs.Paine. That is the 7th of October.
Mr.McCloy. The 7th of October?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was there an occasion in this early period that you drove him all the way into Dallas?
Mrs.Paine. I can't recall ever driving him all the way into Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. At any time?
Mrs.Paine. We drove, except to the Oak Cliff Station for this driver training test.
Mr.Jenner. That is the only occasion?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; that is the only one I recall. Can you refresh my memory. I can't think of any other.
Mr.Jenner. You are clear that you drove him from your home to the bus terminal in Irving?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And either you left immediately or waited to see him board the bus, but it is your definite recollection you did not drive him to the Dallas downtown area on that occasion?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, I did once drive him to the Dallas downtown area, because I recall where he got out. Now why I was going—yes, I think I may know why I was going.
Mr.Jenner. Fix the time first.
Mrs.Paine. I do recall now driving him into downtown Dallas because I was already going and it was probably Monday, the 14th of October.
Mr.Jenner. This is the day before his employment began with the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs.Paine. It would have been 2 days before, the day before he applied. I have several recollections but which day they attach to is not quite as clear.
I recall taking him to the bus. I recall picking him up at the bus. I recall going in and dropping him off at a corner of Ross Avenue and something else, which was near the employment office.
Mr.Jenner. In downtown Dallas?
Mrs.Paine. Near the employment office station. I was on my way to get a key fixed on my Russian typewriter which is what was taking me downtown. I hadn't been thinking—I at no time made a purposeful trip just to take him to downtown Dallas, but I was going and he went along and I am pretty sure that was a Monday and he got out at that corner and Marina was with me and we went on to get this typewriter fixed either to pick it up or to leave it. I am quite certain it was the 12th, Saturday, that I picked him up at the station.
Mr.Jenner. At the bus terminal?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. And I am pretty certain that it was the 7th I took him to the bus station. I recall it being already noon, and I thought he might well have started looking for a job earlier that day.
Mr.Jenner. When next did you hear from Mr. Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. After the 7th. Probably on the 12th when he called again to ask if he could come out for the weekend.
Mr.Jenner. The 12th is what day of the week?
Mrs.Paine. The 12th is a Saturday.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall that he did call?
Mrs.Paine. Pardon?
Mr.Jenner. Did you recall that he did telephone and ask permission to come?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, indeed he did.
Mr.Jenner. Did he always do that?
Mrs.Paine. He always did that with the exception of the 21st of November.
Mr.Jenner. We will get to that in a very few moments.
Mr.McCloy. Before you get to that you said you went all the way into Dallas with this errand, that Marina was with you.
Mrs.Paine. That is my recollection.
Mr.McCloy. What did you do with the children?
Mrs.Paine. We always take them.
Mr.McCloy. Took them all, put them all in the station wagon?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; big station wagon.
Mr.Jenner. By the way, I would like to go back a little. When you picked him up at the bus station on the afternoon of the 4th of October, what did hehave——
Mrs.Paine. On the afternoon of the 12th, around noon of the 12th.
Mr.Jenner. Please, when he first returned to Irvingafter——
Mrs.Paine. He hitchhiked out.
Mr.Jenner. On the occasion that he told you he had been in Houston looking for a job?
Mrs.Paine. The 4th, he hitchhiked out.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
It is that occasion that I have in mind.
What did he have with him in the way of luggage?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall certainly. It does seem to me that I remember he took the zipper bag on Monday, the following Monday, with him to town, along with some clothes over his arm, ironed shirts, things that are hung on hangers.
Mr.Jenner. With respect to thattrip——
Mrs.Paine. You must remember I was shopping when he arrived on the afternoon of the 4th.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. So I didn't see him when he arrived that moment.
Mr.Jenner. But you do have a recollection of having seen the zipper bag on Monday?
Mrs.Paine. The 7th.
Mr.Jenner. When you took him to the bus terminal for the purpose of his returning to downtown Dallas?
Mrs.Paine. To find a room and live there and have sufficient clothing there.
That is my best recollection.
Mr.Jenner. Is that the first time you had seen the zipper bag?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. From the time you had left New Orleans on the 23d?
Mrs.Paine. So far as I recall.
Mr.Jenner. Did you notice anything else in the way of pieces of luggage in your home after you came back from the shopping center that afternoon of October 4th that hadn't been there prior to his arrival?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. The only piece of luggage of which you have any recollection then is the zipper bag which you saw him take with him when he left on Monday morning, the 7th?
Mrs.Paine. And that is, I would not say a certain recollection. But that is the best I have.
Mr.Jenner. It is your best recollection anyhow?
MrsPaine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, when you returned to your home did you have any discussion with Marina about Lee's departure and his future plans and her understanding of them?
Mrs.Paine. No; nothing I recall specifically.
Mr.Jenner. None at all.
What discussion went on between you and Marina, that is the subject matter with respect to his weekend visits?
Mrs.Paine. She wanted to be certain it was all right for him to come out, you know that it wasn't too much of an imposition on me. We got into discussing his efforts to find a job. Then Monday, the 14th as best as I recall, was the first time we talked about him, more than to say it was too bad he didn't find something. This isthe——
Mr.Jenner. During the course of the week was there discussion between you and Marina respecting Lee Oswald's attempt at employment?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Now, there came an occasion, did there not, that weekend or the following weekend at which there was a discussion at least by you with some neighbors with respect to efforts to obtain employment for Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. As best I can reconstruct it this was, while having coffee at my immediate neighbors, Mrs. Ed Roberts, and also present was Mrs. Bill Randle, and Lee had said over the weekend that he had gotten the last of the unemployment compensation checks that were due him, and that it had been smaller than the others had been, and disappointing in its smallness and he looked very discouraged when he went to look for work.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything about amount?
Mrs.Paine. I didn't hear the question.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything about amount?
Mrs.Paine. No; he didn't, just less.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mrs.Paine. And the subject of his looking for work and that he hadn't found work for a week, came up while we were having coffee, the four young mothers at Mrs. Roberts' house, and Mrs. Randle mentioned that her younger brother, Wesley Frazier thought they needed another person at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked.
Marina then asked me, after we had gone home, asked me if I wouldcall——
Mr.Jenner. Was Marina present during this discussion?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; Marina was present, yes, indeed.
Mr.Jenner. Did she understand the conversation?
Mrs.Paine. It was a running translation, running, faulty translation going on.
Mr.Jenner. You were translating for her?
Mrs.Paine. I was acting as her translator. And then after we came home she asked me if I would call the School Book Depository to see if indeed there was the possibility of an opening, and at her request, I didtelephone——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, please.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. While you were still in the Roberts' home was there any discussion at all of the subject mentioned by you or by Mrs. Randle or Mrs. Roberts or anyone else, of calls to be made, or that might be made, to the Texas School Book Depository in this connection?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall this discussion. As I recall it was a suggestion made by Marina to me after we got home, but I may be wrong.
Mr.Jenner. But that is your best recollection that you are now testifying to?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You reached home and Marina suggested that "Would you please call the Texas School Depository?"
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What did you do?
Mrs.Paine. I looked up the number in the book, and dialed it, was told I would need to speak to Mr. Truly, who was at the warehouse. The phone was taken to Mr. Truly, and I talked with him andsaid——
Mr.Jenner. You mean the call was transferred by the operator?
Mrs.Paine. To Mr. Truly, and I said I know of a young man whose wife was staying in my house, the wife was expecting a child, they already had a little girl and he had been out of work for a while and was very interested in getting any employment and his name, and was there a possibility of an opening there, and Mr. Truly said he didn't know whether he had an opening, that the young man should apply himself in person.