Mr.Jenner. Is this a discussion between you and Marina with the agent present or not present.
Mrs.Paine. He was present.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mrs.Paine. Discussion between the three of us.
Mr.Jenner. Thank you.
Mrs.Paine. And I can't recall certainly who brought it up, but I think Marina asked of Hosty what did he think of Castro, and he said, "Well, he reads what is printed and from the view given in the American newspapers of Castro's activities and intentions, he certainly didn't like those intentions or actions."
And Marina expressed an opinion subsequently, but contrary, that perhaps he was not given much chance by the American press, or that the press was not entirely fair to him. This I translated.
Mr.Jenner. Is that the extent of it? Now have you exhausted your recollection?
Mrs.Paine. I hope so. I have exhausted myself.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Chairman, do you have another question?
SenatorCooper. Not on this subject.
Mr.Jenner. I would like to return to your furnishing of the name and the telephone number of Agent Hosty. In Commission Exhibit No. 18, which is in evidence, which was Lee Oswald's diary—by the way, may I hand the exhibit to the witness, Mr. Chairman?
SenatorCooper. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. This is an address book. In any event it is in evidence as Exhibit No. 18. Have you ever seen that booklet before?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Examine the outside of the booklet. Have you seen this?
Mrs.Paine. I have never seen this.
Mr.Jenner. You have never seen that in Lee Oswald's possession?
Mrs.Paine. I have never seen it at all.
Mr.Jenner. There is an entry as follows. Would you help me Mr. Redlich. Would you read it please?
Mr.Redlich. "November 1, 1963 FBI agent James P. Hosty."
Mrs.Paine. Junior?
Mr.Redlich. Just above the word "Hosty" appears in parentheses "RI 1-1121," and underneath "James P. Hosty" appears "MU 8605." Underneath that is "1114 Commerce Street Dallas." I would just like to correct upon the record that the phone number originally read is "RI-11211."
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. What is that phone number?
Mrs.Paine. That phone number I recognize from my own use of it is to the FBI in Dallas, my use since the assassination.
Mr.Jenner. And the series of numbers rather than phone numbers, series of numbers "MU 8605."
Mrs.Paine. Is not known to me.
Mr.Jenner. What is the system of license plate numbering and lettering employed in Texas?
Mrs.Paine. I am not acquainted with any particular system. They use both letters and numbers.
Mr.Jenner. I call your attention in connection with this entry that it is dated November 1, 1963, and there does appear in it the license number.
Mrs.Paine. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Your recollection is firm that you didn't furnish it?
Mrs.Paine. May I point out also that he must have put this down after November 1st, or at least that evening. He could not have written it downwith——
Mr.Jenner. It had to be after the fact as you furnished him the name.
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And the agent's address.
Mrs.Paine. I would think he could as well have added—you don't want my thinking—this number.
Mr.Jenner. The reason I call that to your attention, Mrs. Paine, it still does not stimulate your recollection.
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Any differently than before. You did not furnish the license number.
Mrs.Paine. I certainly did not. To the best of my recollection I did not put down the address either.
Mr.Jenner. Now during the course of that interview of November 5th, did you not say to Agent Hosty that Lee had visited at your home November 2 and 3?
Mrs.Paine. It is entirely possible, likely.
Mr.Jenner. And in this connection I am at liberty to report to you that Agent Hosty's report is that you did advise him that Oswald had visited at your home on November 2 and November 3. Does that serve to refresh your recollection that you did so advise him?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall that.
Mr.Jenner. Now did you express an opinion to Agent Hosty that Oswald was "an illogical person?"
Mrs.Paine. Yes, I did, in answer to his question was this a mental problem, as I have just described to you.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; that is all right. And did you also say to Agent Hosty that Oswald himself had "Admitted being a Trotskyite Communist."
Mrs.Paine. Oh, I doubt seriously I said Trotskyite Communist. I would think Leninist Communist, but I am not certain.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember making a remark of similar import?
Mrs.Paine. Reference to Trotsky surprises me. I have come since the assassination to wonder if he had Trotskyite views. I have become interested in what such views are since the assassination.
Mr.Jenner. To the best of your recollection you don't recall making that comment?
Mrs.Paine. I wouldn't think that I had the knowledge by which to make such a statement even.
Mr.Jenner. Now after this rationalization you have made, Mrs. Paine, it is your recollection that you did not make such a comment?
Mrs.Paine. I can't recall. What was the second item that I told Hosty he had been out on the second and third? I am just trying to clarify here.
Mr.Jenner. You had told him that Lee Oswald had been at your home November 2 and 3, that you told him that Lee Oswald was an illogical person?
Mrs.Paine. That is it.
Mr.Jenner. And third, that you told him that Oswald had admitted being a Trotskyite Communist.
Mrs.Paine. I may have said that. I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. You may have said the latter.
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall, that is right.
Mr.Jenner. It is possible that you did say it?
Mrs.Paine. It is possible. I am surprised, however, by the word at that point.
Mr.Jenner. Now do you recall a telephone interview or call by Agent Hosty on the 27th of January 1964? Perhaps I had better put it this way to you. Do you recall subsequent telephone calls after the assassination that you received from Agent Hosty, that you did receive such telephone calls?
Mrs.Paine. I did, and visits also, at the house.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall he called you on the 27th of January 1964 and that he inquired whether you had given Lee Oswald the license number of his automobile when he had been at your home? You stated that you had not.
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
I would have thought that was a face to face interview but I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. But you also told Agent Hosty on that occasion, "However, this license number could have easily been observed by Marina Oswald since her bedroom is located only a short distance from the street where this car would have been parked."
Mrs.Paine. I doubt I said "easily."
Mr.Jenner. But you could have said that the license number could have been observed by Marina from her bedroom?
Mrs.Paine. My recollection of this, that it was not a telephone interview.
Mr.Jenner. Telephone or otherwise, there was an interview of you at which you made that statement, that Marina could have seen the license?
Mrs.Paine. That Marina could have?
Mr.Jenner. You do recall the incident. You don't recall whether it was at your home or whether it was by telephone?
Mrs.Paine. I certainly recall talking with Agent Hosty and on at least one occasion about how that license number got in Oswald's possession.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall a telephone interview by an FBI agent Lee, Ivan D. Lee on the 28th of December 1963?
Mrs.Paine. The name is not familiar to me. A great many FBIagents——
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall an incident in which you reported to an FBI agent that you had just talked with a reporter from the Houston Post?
Mrs.Paine. Right.
Mr.Jenner. You recall that?
Mrs.Paine. I do.
Mr.Jenner. Now during the course of that interview, you made reference to a newspaper reporter, did you not?
Mrs.Paine. I did. His name is Lonny Hudkins.
Mr.Jenner. Did you say that the reporter whom you have now identified had advised you that Lee Harvey Oswald's mother had been working for a party in Forth Worth during September and October 1962 as a practical nurse, and according to the reporter, Mrs. Oswald, mother of Lee Harvey Oswald, advised this party during her employment that her son was doing important anti-subversive work?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. Would you please relate that incident so we will have the facts insofar as you participated in them stated of record?
Mrs.Paine. I will. I would not have recalled the date, but I knew it to be toward the end of 1963. I was called on the telephone by Lonny Hudkins, whom I had never met, announced himself as from the Houston Post, said there was a matter of some importance that he wanted to talk with me about, could he come out to the house? And he then indicated the nature of what he wanted to talk about to the extent very accurately reported in what you have just read. I called the FBI really to see if they could advise me in dealing with this man. It struck me as a very unresponsible thing to print, and I wanted to be able to convince Hudkins of that fact. I was hopeful that they might be willing to make a flat denial to him, or in some way prevent the confusion that would have been caused by his printing this.
Now shall I go on to tell about the encounter which followed with Mr. Hudkins, and something of that content?
Mr.Jenner. I am a little at a loss. Why don't you start because I can't anticipate.
Mrs.Paine. Whether it is important?
Mr.Jenner. You haven't related this to me. Are these statements you made to the FBI that you are about to relate?
Mrs.Paine. If they asked. I don't recall specifically. I certainly recall that the content of the telephone conversation reported there is accurate and is in sum the conversation that then followed with Lonny Hudkins too, except that it doesn't say what I said in the situation.
Mr.Jenner. Did you report to the FBI that Mr. Hudkins had said to you that the primary purpose of seeing you was an effort to get some confirmation if possible of the possibility Oswald was actually working on behalf of the United States Government prior to the assassination?
Mrs.Paine. I was aware that was his purpose.
Mr.Jenner. That you knew of no such situation, and ventured the opinion to the reporter that the story was wholly unlikely, that you could not imagine anyone having that much confidence in Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. That is accurate. I went on to say that Mrs. Oswald, senior, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, could well have said to this matron a full year backand more that her son was doing important anti-subversive work for the government. This was 1962 he was talking about, but that this was her opinion or what she may have wished to have true. And I did not consider it terribly creditable, and said to him "You don't think you have a story here, do you?"
Mr.Jenner. You alsorecall——
Mrs.Paine. May I put in another point here?
Mr.Jenner. In connection with this subject matter?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mrs.Paine. I called and the man to whom I talked, I don't know if it was Lee, or I think it was someone else who answered first, I am not certain at all.
Mr.Jenner. Odum?
Mrs.Paine. Odum? It certainly was not Odum. I know him. But someone answered the phone and I told this to him, and perhaps it was Lee. He said to me in response to my inquiring "What shall I do, here is this man coming," he said "well you don't know anything of this nature do you?" I said, "No".
"Then anything you might have to say is sheer conjecture on the subject?"
"Yes."
"Then you should certainly make that plain in talking with him."
Mr.Jenner. Did you do so?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I certainly did. And I felt as though I really shouldn't have bothered them. This was not of interest to them. But then I was called back later by the FBI on the same subject.
Mr.Jenner. And you reported that conversation, the subsequent call back by the FBI?
Mrs.Paine. No. You have content of the first conversation I think there, isn't that so, or it might have been?
Mr.Jenner. There are a series, Mrs. Paine, that run in this order. The first was on December 28, 1963. The conversation occurred between you and an Agent Lee, and it was a telephone interview?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I have asked you about that, and I have read from the report and you have affirmed that you so reported to the agent. And on the next day, December 29, 1963, you had a telephone conversation, whether you called or whether the agent called, with Kenneth C. Howe.
Mrs.Paine. What is his name?
Mr.Jenner. Kenneth C. Howe, on this same subject. I have questioned you about that, and I have read from the report, and you have affirmed as to that. Then on January 3, 1964, this apparently was an interview at your home by Agent Odum? Do you recall that?
Mrs.Paine. Agent Odum has been out a great deal.
Mr.Jenner. In which you say, did you not, that this reporter Hudkins of the Houston Post newspaper in his contact with you on the previous Saturday, December 28 had stated that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Joseph Hosty, being a reference to the FBI agent we have been talking about today, had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant. You stated you had made no comment one way or the other to Hudkins regarding this remark, and furthermore that you knewthat——
Mrs.Paine. Would you please repeat that, that I stated?
Mr.Jenner. I will read it all to you then. You advised that Lonny Hudkins, the reporter of the Houston Post in his contact that he had with you on the previous Saturday, December 28, 1963, had stated to you that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Hosty had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant. Did you make that statement?
Mrs.Paine. Not in just those terms.
Mr.Jenner. Did you make the further statement that you made no comment one way or the other to Hudkins regarding this remark of his to you? In order to get this in the proper posture, Mrs.Paine——
SenatorCooper. Do you understand the question?
Mrs.Paine. I understand what is said, but it doesn't check strictly with my recollection, that is the confusion.
Mr.Jenner. What the agent is reporting is your report of what Lonny Hudkins had said to you, and your report to the agent of your response to what Lonny Hudkins had said to you. Do we have it now in the proper posture?
Mrs.Paine. This is by no means an accurate description of the conversation or my response.
Mr.Jenner. You don't have to accept this report, of course, Mrs. Paine. Tell us what occurred in that interview?
Mrs.Paine. All right.
Mr.Jenner. What you said and what Agent Odum said to you.
Mrs.Paine. Oh, I don't recall that so well. I was going to tell you what I said to Hudkins. I do recall this, and it may be the foundation for what appears in your report there. I made no comment on Mr. Hudkins saying that there was a Joe Hosty, and that this agent had been in contact with Oswald. I observed that Hudkins had inaccurate information.
Mr.Jenner. Didn't you tell the agent what this reporter had said to you that was inaccurate, to wit, that the reporter had stated to you that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Hosty had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant?
Mrs.Paine. What is totally inaccurate is the following, that implies that I made no comment to Hudkins regarding such a remark.
Mr.Jenner. No please, that has not been suggested. I am trying to take this chronologically. Did you first report to the agent that Hudkins had said to you that the FBI was foolish to deny that Agent Joseph Hosty had tried to develop Lee Harvey Oswald as an informant.
Mrs.Paine. Certainly what Hudkins said was of this nature.
Mr.Jenner. And you so reported to the agent?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Then did you make the further remark, which is what I think you are trying to say, that you made no comment one way or the other to Hudkins when he made that remark, his remark to you?
Mrs.Paine. I made a great deal of comment and I will say what those comments were.
Mr.Jenner. You did to the reporter.
Mrs.Paine. To the reporter, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Please say what you said, and did you report this to the FBI, Mr. Odum?
Mrs.Paine. Inadequately clearly, judging fromthe——
Mr.Jenner. Why don't you do it this way?
Mrs.Paine. Yes I reported it.
Mr.Jenner. Let us have first what you said to the FBI agent on the subject?
Mrs.Paine. I can't recall what I said to the FBI agent. It is much easier for me to recall what I said to Hudkins. But I do recall clearly that I said to the FBI agent "I made no correction of his inaccuracies about Hosty's name." This is where I made no comment.
Mr.Jenner. I am at a loss now.
Mrs.Paine. Joe is not his name.
Mr.Jenner. I see. His name is James?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you indicate to the agent that you had raised an issue with the reporter?
Mrs.Paine. He also spelled it with an "i", Hudkins.
Mr.Jenner. With respect to the other phase, that is to what the reporter had said to you.
Mrs.Paine. I would guess that I reported to Mr. Odum other thingsabout——
Mr.Jenner. Present recollections Mrs. Paine.
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall the particular conversation with Mr. Odum at all. I talked with him a great deal.
Mr.Jenner. Did you deny this state to Mr. Hudkins, the reporter?
Mrs.Paine. To Mr. Hudkins?
Mr.Jenner. Did you say to him that you did not agree with his statement?
Mrs.Paine. To Mr. Hudkins I said many things, which I hoped would convince him that he had no story, that his information was very shaky, that Oswald was not in my view a person that would have been hired by the FBI or by Russia. I said to him "You are the other side of the coin from a Mr. Guy Richards of the New York Journal-American who is certain that Oswald was a paid spy for the Soviet Union, and just as inaccurate," and coming to, in my opinion, and of course I made it clear this was my opinion, to conclusions just as wrong.
Mr.Jenner. That is, it was your opinion that Lee Oswald was neither a Russian agent nor an agent of any agency of the United States?
Mrs.Paine. That is right. I said indeed to Mr. Hudkins, I had said to Mr. Richards that if the so-called great Soviet conspiracy has to rest for its help upon such inadequate people as Lee Oswald, there is no hope of their achieving their aims. I said I simply cannot believe that the FBI would find it necessary to employ such a shaky and inadequate person.
Mr.Jenner. And is that still your view?
Mrs.Paine. Indeed it is.
Mr.Jenner. Did you also say to Mr. Odum on that occasion that you knew that Agent Hosty had not interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. Probably.
SenatorCooper. Did you read the statements after they had been written?
Mrs.Paine. What statements?
SenatorCooper. The statements of the FBI.
Mrs.Paine. Oh, no; I have never.
SenatorCooper. You have never seen them?
Mrs.Paine. Never seen anything of it. I knew they must write something, but I have never seen any of these statements.
SenatorCooper. You never asked them to show you the statements?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever make a statement to anybody that you can recall that Lee Harvey Oswald in your opinion was doing underground work?
Mrs.Paine. That has never been my opinion. I would be absolutely certain that henever——
Mr.Jenner. Please, did you say it?
Mrs.Paine. And I would be absolutely certain that I never said such a thing.
Mr.Jenner. To anybody, including when I say anybody, Mrs. Dorothy Gravitis?
Mrs.Paine. Absolutely certain. Never said to anyone that I thought Lee was doing undercover work.
SenatorCooper. What is that name?
Mr.Jenner. Gravitis, G-r-a-v-i-t-i-s.
SenatorCooper. Do you know this person?
Mrs.Paine. She is my Russian tutor in Dallas.
SenatorCooper. What?
Mrs.Paine. Russian tutor and the mother-in-law of the translator that was at the police station.
Mr.Jenner. To conclude thisseries——
Mrs.Paine. Would you clarify for me, someone is of the opinion that I thought that Oswald was an undercover agent for whom?
Mr.Jenner. That you said so.
Mrs.Paine. For whom?
Mr.Jenner. For the Russian government.
Mrs.Paine. Oh. I have certainly never said anything of the sort.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever say to anybody including Mrs. Gravitis that you thought Lee Harvey Oswald was a Communist?
Mrs.Paine. Well, it is possible I said that. I thought he considered himself a Communist by ideology, certainly a Marxist. He himself always corrected anyone who called him a Communist and said he was a Marxist.
Mr.Jenner. When you use the term communist do you think of a person as a member of the Communist Party or a native of Russia?
Mrs.Paine. I seldom use the term at all, but I would confine it to people who were members or considered themselves in support of Communist ideology.
Mr.Jenner. A person in your mind may be a Communist, and yet not a member of the Communist Party, even in Russia?
Mrs.Paine. I might use the word in that loose way.
Mr.Jenner. The last of these interviews was on, may I suggest, and if not would you correct me, January 27, 1964, by Agent Wiehl, and Agent Hosty. It appears, and would you please correct me if I am wrong, to have been an interview in your home at the very tail end of January 1964?
Mrs.Paine. I have no specific recollection.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall an interview in which you reported to the FBI, these two agents, that agent Hosty—no, that you gave Lee Harvey Oswald the name of agent James P. Hosty together with the Dallas FBI telephone number which you had obtained on November 1, 1963, that you did not give him the license number of the automobile driven by agent Hosty, however, and that, as I have asked you before, the license number could have been observed by Marina Oswald on November 1?
Mrs.Paine. That is my recollection of the occurrence.
Mr.Jenner. And it could have been observed on November 5th?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
SenatorCooper. Did you yourself see the license plate?
Mrs.Paine. No.
SenatorCooper. You don't know the numbers or letters that were on the license plate?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you testified yesterday and you testified again today, this morning, that you had no recollection of Lee Oswald having gone into the garage of your home on Thursday, November 21. Do you recall that testimony?
Mrs.Paine. Well, that I did not see him there or see him go through the door to the garage. I was clear in my own mind that it was he who had left the light on, and I tried to describe that.
Mr.Jenner. It may have been a possibility and you were inferring from that that he was in the garage.
Mrs.Paine. I definitely infer that.
Mr.Jenner. Were you interviewed by the FBI agents Hosty and Abernathy on the 23d of November 1963?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And in the course of that interview, do you recall having stated to these agents that on the evening of November 21, Lee Oswald went out to the garage of your home, where he had many of his personal effects stored, and spent considerable time, apparently rearranging and handling his personal effects.
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall saying exactly that.
Mr.Jenner. Could you have said that to the agents.
Mrs.Paine. I could have said as far as spending considerable time.
Mr.Jenner. Now that your recollection is possibly further refreshed, please tell us what you did say to the agents as you now recall?
Mrs.Paine. You have refreshed nothing. You have got all there was of my recollection in previous testimony.
Mr.Jenner. Based on the fundamentals, the specifics which you have given us yesterday and today, you did report to the FBI on the 23d of November in the interview to which I have called your attention that on the evening of the 21st Oswald went out to the garage where he had many of his personal effects stored, and spent considerable time apparently rearranging and handling his personal effects.
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall ever saying "apparently rearranging and handling."
Mr.Jenner. Other than the word "apparently" that is a reasonable summary of what you did say to the FBI agents, is it?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall. I think my best recollection is as I have given it to you in the testimony, was it this morning, that I certainly was of the opinion that he had been out there. I had been busy for some time with my children, and I could easily, and of course that was the day after, and this several months after, have been of the opinion, been informed as to how long he had been out there, but my recollection now doesn't give me any length of time.
Mr.Jenner. You have heretofore given us yesterday and today your very best recollection after full reflection on all the course of events.
Mrs.Paine. I certainly have.
Mr.Jenner. I notice that during the course of the interview, and perhaps you will recall, that you did call attention of the FBI, these two agents, to the Mexico City letter about which you have testified, is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I gave it to them.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Chairman, that is all I intend to cover with respect to the FBI. Do you have any questions? We will go on to another subject.
SenatorCooper. This would be going back into the subject on which you have already testified, but with reference to this last statement, this letter, where it is reported, you said, Lee Oswald did go into the garage and spend some time, did you make a statement to the FBI after the agents had been in the garage, or the police had been in the garage, and had found the blanket with nothing in it.
Mrs.Paine. Yes, certainly, this was the next day that Hosty was out with Abernathy.
SenatorCooper. And you did remember of course that you found the light on?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
SenatorCooper. You did not expect it to be on in the garage? Do you think it is correct then that at the time you made this statement, recognizing the importance of the garage, that you did say at that time that he had been in the garage on the night before the President was assassinated?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. I think I said that.
SenatorCooper. You think you made that statement?
Mrs.Paine. I think I made that statement. This was certainly my impression.
Mr.Jenner. You have already related the arrival of your husband, Michael Paine, at your home in mid-afternoon of the day of the assassination?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now would you please tell me exactly to the best of your recollection the words of your husband as he walked in the door?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall his saying anything.
Mr.Jenner. Now his words if any with respect to why he had come.
Mrs.Paine. I asked him before he volunteered. I said something to the effect of "how did you know to come?"
Mr.Jenner. And what did he say?
Mrs.Paine. He said he had heard on the radio at work that Lee Oswald was in custody, and came immediately to the house.
Mr.Jenner. And that is what you recall he said?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say, and I quote: "I heard where the President was shot, and I came right over to see if I could be of any help to you."
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did he also say to you that he "Just walked off the job."
Mrs.Paine. No. He said he had come from work. I might interject here one recollection if you want it.
Mr.Jenner. Please.
Mrs.Paine. Of Michael having telephoned to me after the assassination. He wanted to know if I had heard.
Mr.Jenner. Did he call you before he arrived at your home?
Mrs.Paine. He called. He knew about the assassination. He had been told by a waitress at lunchtime. I don't know whether he knew any further details, whether he knew from whence the shots had been fired, but he knew immediately that I would want to know, and called simply to find out if I knew, and of course I did, and we didn't converse about it, but I felt the difference between him and my immediate neighbor to whom I have already referred, Michael was as struck and grieved as I was, and we shared this over the telephone.
Mr.Jenner. And his appearance in mid-afternoon, as you have related, was, according to what he said activated as you have related, that he had heard that Lee Oswald was now involved.
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. How did you and Marina look at the parade, that is as the motorcade went along were you andMarina——
Mrs.Paine. This was not shown on television.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, it wasn't?
Mrs.Paine. To the best of my recollection they had cameras at the convention center, whatever it was, that the President was coming to for dinner, and for his talk.
Mr.Jenner. And was the motorcade being described, broadcast by radio?
Mrs.Paine. The motorcade was being described.
Mr.Jenner. Were you and Marina listening to that?
Mrs.Paine. Well, it was coming through the television set, but it wasn't being shown.
Mr.Jenner. Were you listening?
Mrs.Paine. We were.
Mr.Jenner. Did she show an interest in this?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. And it being broadcast in English, I assume you were doing some interpreting for her?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Most of this has been covered, Senator Cooper, and I am getting through pages fortunately that we don't have to go over again.
SenatorCooper. After you knew that the President was dead, and Marina knew, do you know, from that time on, whether she ever went into her room, left you and went into her room?
Mrs.Paine. I would think it highly likely that she did. The announcement that the President was actually dead came, oh, I think around 1:30 or close to 2. I already related that my little girl wept and fell asleep on the sofa. This was a time therefore that Marina would have been putting Junie to bed in the bedroom.
SenatorCooper. Between the time that you heard the President had been shot and the news came that he died, did she ever leave you and go into her room, do you remember?
Mrs.Paine. I don't remember specifically, but you must understand that the little baby was already born. She would have had many occasions, needs to go into the room.
SenatorCooper. Do you know whether she went into the garage?
Mrs.Paine. I don't know.
SenatorCooper. What?
Mrs.Paine. I don't know whether she went into the garage.
Mr.Jenner. You have no impressions in that respect?
Mrs.Paine. None.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall an incident involving Lee Oswald's wedding ring?
Mrs.Paine. I do.
Mr.Jenner. Would you relate that, please?
Mrs.Paine. One or two FBI agents came to my home, I think Odum was one of them, and said that Marina had inquired after and wanted Lee's wedding ring, and he asked me if I had any idea where to look for it. I said I'll look first in the little tea cup that is from her grandmother, and on top of the chest of drawers in the bedroom where she had stayed. I looked and it was there.
Mr.Jenner. Calling on your recollection of this man, was he in the habit of wearing his wedding ring?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did this strike you as unusual that the wedding ring should be back in this cup on the dresser in their room?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, quite.
Mr.Jenner. Elaborate as to why it struck you as unusual?
Mrs.Paine. I do not wear my wedding ring. Marina has on several occasions said to me she considers that bad luck, not a good thing to do.
I would suspect that she would certainly have wanted Lee to wear his wedding ring, and encouraged him to do it.
Mr.Jenner. In face of the fact that he regularly wore his wedding ring, yet on this occasion, that is being home the evening before, you received this call, you went to the bedroom and you found the wedding ring. Did it occur to you that that might have been in the nature of a leave-taking of some kind by Lee Oswald, leaving his wedding ring for Marina?
Mrs.Paine. It occurred to me that that might have been a form of thinking ahead. I had no way of knowing whether or not Marina had known that he left it. I was not instructed where to look for it.
Mr.Jenner. You were not?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. But Marina did say to you "would you look for Lee's wedding ring?"
Mrs.Paine. No, Odum did.
Mr.Jenner. Odum did.
Mrs.Paine. And of course clearly they would know whether he had it.
Mr.Jenner. Yes, I see. It was not Marina. It was one of the FBI agents. And it is your clear recollection that he was in the habit of wearing that wedding ring all the time. Do you ever recall an occasion when he left the wedding ring at home?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. To your knowledge?
Mrs.Paine. To my knowledge, no.
Mr.Jenner. When you obtained the wedding ring did you examine it?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. I mean did you look inside to see if there was an inscription on it or were you curious about that?
Mrs.Paine. I gave it to Mr. Odum who was with me in the room.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Odum accompanied you?
Mrs.Paine. Went with me to the bedroom. I am pretty sure he was the one.
SenatorCooper. The morning of the day that the President was killed, did Mrs. Oswald, after she got up, say anything to you about any unusual characteristics of Lee Oswald's taking leave of her that morning?
Mrs.Paine. Absolutely none.
SenatorCooper. Did she talk about him leaving? Did she tell you anything at all about what happened when he did get up?
Mrs.Paine. I have a recollection that must be from her that she woke enough to feed the baby, to nurse the baby in the morning, when he was getting up to go, but she then went back to sleep after that, and she must have told me that. But that is all I know, that she had been awake, and nursed the baby early in the morning, and then went back to sleep.
SenatorCooper. And Lee Oswald went back to sleep?
Mrs.Paine. No, no, Marina went back to sleep.
SenatorCooper. Oh, Marina went back to sleep. Was he leaving then?
Mrs.Paine. I judge so.
SenatorCooper. What?
Mrs.Paine. I judge so.
SenatorCooper. But I mean did she say anything else about him?
Mrs.Paine. No; nothing about his leaving at all.
Mr.Jenner. What were his habits with respect to breakfast? For example on the Monday mornings of the weekends which he visited your home, did he prepare his own, and if so, what kind of a breakfast did he prepare?
Mrs.Paine. I would say his habit was to have a cup of instant coffee only.
Mr.Jenner. And you have a clear recollection that on the morning of the 21st when you went into thekitchen——
Mrs.Paine. The 22d.
Mr.Jenner. The 22d, I am sorry, the 22d you saw a plastic coffee cup or tea cup, and you looked at it and you could see the remains of somebody having prepared instant coffee?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And that is clear in your mind?
Mrs.Paine. Perfectly clear. I looked especially for traces of Lee having been up, since I wondered if he might be still sleeping, having overslept.
Mr.Jenner. Was he in the habit on these weekends of making himself a sandwich which he would take with him?
Mrs.Paine. No; there is no such habit. Perhaps once Marina prepared something for him to take with him, I think more for him to put in his room, partly for lunch, partly for him to have at his room in town and use the refrigerator.
Mr.Jenner. But in any event, on the morning of the 22d you saw no evidence of there having been an attempt by anybody to prepare?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Sandwiches for lunch or to take anything else in the way of food from your home?
Mrs.Paine. I saw no evidence, and I saw nothing that was missing.
Mr.Jenner. At any time during all the time you knew the Oswalds, up to and including November 22, was any mention ever made of any attempt on the life of Richard Nixon?
Mrs.Paine. None.
Mr.Jenner. Just that subject matter, was it ever mentioned?
Mrs.Paine. Never.
Mr.Jenner. To the best of your recollection did they ever discuss Richard Nixon as a person?
Mrs.Paine. I can't recall Richard Nixon coming into the conversation at any time.
Mr.Jenner. And to the present day—well, I want to include the time that you spoke here a couple weeks ago with Marina, let us say up to and including that day had there ever been any discussion with you by Marina of the possibility of Lee Oswald contemplating making an attack upon the person of Richard Nixon?
Mrs.Paine. No; no such discussion.
Mr.Jenner. Did anyone else ever talk to you about that up to that time, talk to you on that subject?
Mrs.Paine. Well, after it was rumored in the paper, someone asked me if I thought there was anything to it but that is something else.
Mr.Jenner. When you say recently some rumor to that effect that is what you are talking about?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Up to that time?
Mrs.Paine. Absolutely none.
Mr.Jenner. I take it from your testimony this morning that you have seen and talked with Robert Oswald but once?
Mrs.Paine. And you recall also when he came to pick up her things?
Mr.Jenner. Oh, yes.
Mrs.Paine. Twice.
Mr.Jenner. So you saw him once for the first time in the city police station?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. You talked with him on that occasion. You saw him on one occasion when not so long after that he came out to pick up her things?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And had some conversation with him then. Have there ever been any other occasions that you have had a conversation with him directly or by telephone?
Mrs.Paine. No. I made one attempt to have such a conversation and drove out to his home in Denton and talked with his wife.
Mr.Jenner. And what occurred then? When was that?
Mrs.Paine. Possibly in January.
Mr.Jenner. Of 1964?
Mrs.Paine. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Why did you go out there?
Mrs.Paine. I had been writing letters to Marina and receiving no reply, and I wanted to go and talk with both Robert and his wife to inquire what was the best way to be a friend to Marina in this situation, whether it was better towrite letters or better not to, whether she wanted to hear from me or whether she didn't, and knowing that they had seen her, I felt they might be able to help me with this.
I was told by Mrs. Robert Oswald that Robert had a bad cold, and she didn't want to expose my children who were with me, and she and I talked through the screen, and I explained what I wanted. But I didn't feel helped by the visit.
Mr.Jenner. You did not.
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you feel that there was a lack of cordiality?
Mrs.Paine. She apologized for not having me in, and she was friendly and said, "what nice children you have," but it is somewhat hard to communicate through a screen.
Mr.Jenner. That was the only difficulty that you observed, the difficulty in talking through the screen door, the screen of the door?
Mrs.Paine. I felt that she could have asked me whether I cared if my children were exposed. I felt that she preferred for me not to come in.
SenatorCooper. Was Marina staying with them?
Mrs.Paine. I don't believe so. I am pretty certain she was at that time at the Martin's home.
SenatorCooper. Did you get any impression in your talk with Mrs. Robert Oswald that they were not interested in finding out the information that you were asking for?
Mrs.Paine. She offered the opinion that she didn't think there was any particular point to writing letters at this time, but she offered no reason.
Mr.Jenner. By the way, do you have copies of those letters, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Paine. At home.
Mr.Jenner. I know now that I will be to see you on Monday.
Mrs.Paine. Monday?
Mr.Jenner. Yes. Are you going to be home on Monday?
Mrs.Paine. I am flying Monday morning. Shall we go together? I am not leaving until Monday morning.
Mr.Jenner. I am going down Sunday night. So may I see those letters on that occasion?
Mrs.Paine. As soon as I get home.
Mr.Jenner. Would you be goodenough——
Mrs.Paine. I will have to translate them.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mrs.Paine. That will take a while.
Mr.Jenner. With respect to the curtain-rod package, would you be good enough to leave it intact, don't touch it, just leave it where it is without touching it at all.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now you have related to us the Texas School Book Depository employment, the ability to operate an automobile. I am going to read a list of names to you, and you stop me every time I read a name that is familiar to you. There are some of the Russian emigré group in and around Dallas. Some of them may not be Russian emigré group people, but some of the members of the staff want these particular persons covered.
George Bouhe.
Mrs.Paine. I don't know him.
Mr.Jenner. I want also your response that you didn't hear these names discussed by either Marina or Lee.
Mrs.Paine. I have never heard that name discussed by Marina or Lee Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray.
Mrs.Paine. I did not hear that name discussed by either of them. I have since learned from Mrs. Ford that it was to Mrs. Ray's home that Marina went from Mrs. Ford's home in the fall of 1962.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray.
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. I won't ask you—well, I have Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt on my list.
You have already testified about them.
Mrs.Paine. I have met them once; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Only on that one occasion?
Mrs.Paine. To the best of my recollection; that is right.
Mr.Jenner. John and Elena Hall?
Mrs.Paine. No; I don't know them.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever hear them discussed by either Marina or Lee?
Mrs.Paine. I have never at any time heard that name.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
I think I pronounce this correctly, Tatiana Biggers?
Mrs.Paine. I am not familiar with that name, and I never heard it.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Teofil Meller?
Mrs.Paine. I am not familiar with that name.
Mr.Jenner. Lydia Dymitruk?
Mrs.Paine. I met a Lydia who was working as a clerk at a grocery store in Irving, and I had met Marina previously. I am not certain of her last name. I am certain that Marina told me not to learn Russian from her, it was not grammatical.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
By the way, did Marina go out by herself occasionally and shop?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. and Mrs. Daniel F. Sullivan?
Mrs.Paine. I don't know that name.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. and Mrs. Alan A. Jackson III?
Mrs.Paine. I don't know that name.
Mr.Jenner. Peter Gregory?
Mrs.Paine. I know that name; yes. That name was mentioned by, to the best of my recollection first in my presence by, Marguerite Oswald, who told us that she had just started at the police when I first mether——
Mr.Jenner. I would like that. The first time there came to your attention and your consciousness the name Peter Gregory was when Marguerite Oswald mentioned it at the police station on the 22d of November 1963, is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; because she had just begun a course of study with him in order to try to learn the Russian language at the public library.
Mr.Jenner. She so said?
Mrs.Paine. She so said. I don't recall having heard the name previously. Although I am not certain.
Mr.Jenner. Paul Gregory.
Mrs.Paine. I would be absolutely certain I had never heard the name from either of the Oswalds.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Is that likewise true of Paul Gregory who is the son I may tell you of Peter Gregory?
Mrs.Paine. I am not familiar with that name.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. and Mrs., I know you are familiar with this name, Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford. When did you first hear of the name of those people with respect to November 22, 1963, before or after or on that very day?
Mrs.Paine. Mrs. Ford was mentioned to me by name by Marina in the fall of 1963 before the time of the assassination. Marina described to me a party at Mrs. Ford's home, and described the decor of the house and how much she admired Mrs. Ford's tastes, and said that Mrs. Ford had done most of the decorating herself.
Let me just say Marina also told me she had stayed at someone's home in the fall of 1962, but she did not tell me the name of Mrs. Ford in that connection. It came up in this other connection. It is only since the assassination that I learned she had stayed briefly at Mrs. Ford's.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
That is the extent of your information with respect to the Fords at least up to November 22?
Mrs.Paine. Up to the time of the assassination that is the extent of it.
Mr.Jenner. I wish to be certain of this and I don't recall whether I asked you and, therefore, I will risk repetition.
Did Marina and Lee, with you or even without you, visit any people, to yourknowledge, while Marina was living with you in the fall of 1963, just social visit, go out and make a social visit?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. I meant to include whether either together as a couple or separately.
Mrs.Paine. I recall no such visit.
Mr.Jenner. I think your testimony was when Lee Oswald came home on the weekends, from what you have described he remained on the premises?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. With the possible exception of one instance when he went off and bought some groceries or am I wrong about that exception?
Mrs.Paine. He went with my children to buy some popsicles while I was teaching a student, so I was not at home that time.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
We have a report, Mrs. Paine, and you might help us with it on this subject, of a barber in your community, who recounts to the FBI that in his opinion Lee Harvey Oswald or what he thinks a gentleman who was that man, came to his shop reasonably regularly and had a haircut on Saturday, on Saturdays, and accompanying him was what he judged to be a 14-year-old boy. Do you recall Lee Oswald ever obtaining a haircut over any weekend while he was at your home?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. To the best of your recollection, subject to his being off the premises while you were away shopping, it is your present firm recollection he never left the premises once he arrived, save this one instance that you knew of when he went to get popsicles?
Mrs.Paine. Of course, I was away during that instance.
Mr.Jenner. You were?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. But you anticipated?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. Now, the morning of the 11th of November I was not home from something before 9 o'clock until about 2 that afternoon. I don't know what transpired during that time.
Mr.Jenner. Were there other occasions when you were off ministering to your children, that is taking them to the dentist or something of that nature, on a Saturday or to church on Sunday or to the local park on Sunday, that Lee Oswald may have been, that is periods of time when you would not have known whether he was on or off your premises?
Mrs.Paine. I can think only of grocery shopping which would have been an hour to an hour and a half period, and the two times that I can recall in the Saturday afternoon, on a Saturday afternoon that I went to Dallas to teach one Russian student a lesson. I can't think of any other spaces of time, hours that I was away.
Mr.Jenner. Now, this gentleman alsosays——
Mrs.Paine. Except the one I have just mentioned, of course, the one of November 11.
Mr.Jenner. He also says that the man he thinks was Lee Harvey Oswald not only regularly came to his shop on Friday evenings or Saturday mornings for a haircut, but that he occasionally drove a station wagon.
Do you know of any occasion to your certain knowledge that Lee drove your station wagon other than the one occasion you have already related?
Mrs.Paine. Absolutely none.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know whether Lee Oswald subscribed to any newspapers?