Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; that is true, sir.
(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr.Rankin. Chief Curry, you said that Mr. Nichols came that afternoon. I call to your attention that we have information that he came there on the Saturday afternoon.
Mr.Curry. Perhaps it was, not the Friday. That perhaps was on Saturday.
Mr.Rankin. Yes.
Mr.Dulles. I wonder if you could just summarize briefly where we are.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Rankin. Back on the record.
In regard to Mr. Nichols, did you know whether or not he offered to represent or provide counsel?
Mr.Curry. Yes; he did.
Mr.Rankin. What did he say about that?
Mr.Curry. He said he didn't care to at this time.
Mr.Rankin. What did Mr. Nichols say about providing counsel?
Mr.Curry. He said the Dallas Bar would provide counsel if he desired counsel.
Mr.Rankin. That is to Mr. Oswald?
Mr.Curry. Oswald.
Mr.Rankin. What did Mr. Oswald say?
Mr.Curry. He said, "I don't at this time," he said, "If I can't get Mr. Abt to represent me or someone from Civil Liberties Union I will call on you later."
RepresentativeFord. Did Nichols and Oswald talk one to another?
Mr.Curry. Yes; he was taken to see Oswald and he talked to him.
Mr.Rankin. And this all occurred at the meeting you have already described?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir.
Mr.Rankin. Between Mr. Nichols and Mr. Oswald?
Mr.Curry. That is correct.
Mr.Rankin. When you had so many people of the news media in all of your corridors and throughout your police headquarters, did you discuss that with the mayor or any of the other authorities?
Mr.Curry. I don't recall that I specifically discussed this condition.
Mr.Rankin. Did you ask for any instructions or advice?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Rankin. Did you do anything about it that you have not already described?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Dulles. Did it worry you?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; it did. I was concerned about it.
Mr.McCloy. Did you have a definite system of checking credentials of these people as they came in?
Mr.Curry. On a particular incident that had occurred previous to this, such as the school integration, we had a plane to fall there one time and we have a regular set up for disaster, whereby the press identify themselves in order to get into a certain area, and their credentials were being checked.
Now, I have heard it said, not to my knowledge can I tell you this, that Jack Ruby at one time or sometime during these preceding days, had been seen there and apparently had some press credentials but I was never able to establish that.
Mr.Rankin. You have checked into it?
Mr.Curry. I have inquired into it or had it inquired into.
Mr.Rankin. What did you find out in that regard?
Mr.Curry. I couldn't find out where he had received press credentials from anybody.
RepresentativeFord. Were any press credentials found in his effects?
Mr.Curry. No; not to my knowledge.
Mr.Rankin. When you were having the difficulty with the media that you have described, did you do anything about adding additional guards or anything about additional security?
Mr.Curry. No; we had two men, two uniformed officers right at the homicide door to keep anyone from going in there.
As I recall, there was a sergeant, and a couple of reserve officers at the public elevators here, and there were a couple of reservists at this end of the hall to keep them from overrunning into the administrative offices.
Mr.Rankin. I offer in evidence Exhibit 701, Mr. Chairman.
Mr.Dulles. Is that the chart?
Mr.Rankin. Yes.
Mr.Dulles. It will be admitted. This is a chart of the third floor.
Mr.Curry. Of the police and courts building.
Mr.Dulles. What is the other word?
Mr.Curry. Police and courts building.
Mr.Dulles. It will be accepted.
(The chart referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 701 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr.Rankin. Have you done anything to change your procedures in regard to security or how you would handle prisoners in light of this difficulty you had with the media?
Mr.Curry. The city manager and I have discussed the possibility that we are going to in the near future build a new police building.
Mr.Rankin. Who is the city manager?
Mr.Curry. Elgin Crull. He made this statement that when and if we build another building, it will be so designed that the prisoners will not have to be brought through where the general public are permitted or where the press would be permitted. That there will be two sets of halls or hallways where they willbe brought down in the rear hallways and admitted into the offices for interrogation.
Mr.Rankin. What did you say about that?
Mr.Curry. I heartily agreed with him.
Mr.Rankin. Have you made any other plans for change of security?
Mr.Curry. I have talked to my staff and said if we were ever faced with a thing of such magnitude again that we would not permit the press to come into the building. We would designate a place outside for them and we would just have to take the heat that was given to us by the press for not permitting them in there, but in view of what had happened that we would never permit this to occur again.
That we would permit them to have representatives but they would be required to choose their representatives to be present, say, in these hallways or inside the buildings, and the rest of them would be excluded.
And regardless of how they treated us in the press for this decision, that is the way it would be in the future.
Mr.Rankin. Did you do anything about appearing on television during this time?
Mr.Curry. They had these cameras set up in the hallway, if I can have the exhibit I will show it to you.
Mr.Rankin. Yes. That is Exhibit 701.
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir. They had cameras set up right here, two or three cameras.
Mr.Rankin. Have you marked that with the word "cameras"?
Mr.Curry. Yes. And on an occasion or two as I was walking from the homicide office back to my office they would stop me here and try to interrogate me or interview me and they would have the cameras turned on me.
Mr.Rankin. What would you do?
Mr.Curry. They would besiege me with questions about how the investigation was proceeding, and I would on occasion or two I told them I thought it was proceeding very well, that we were obtaining good evidence to substantiate our suspicions, that this was the man that was guilty of the assassination.
Mr.Rankin. Did you tell them what evidence you had?
Mr.Curry. I told them on one occasion we had a rifle that had been partially identified by his, as belonging to him.
Mr.Rankin. When did you do that?
Mr.Curry. I believe that was on Saturday, I think.
Mr.Rankin. About what time of the day?
Mr.Curry. I don't recall exactly. I think it was in the afternoon. It might have been Friday night.
Mr.Rankin. Did you tell them about any other evidence that you had?
Mr.Curry. I don't recall, sir, whether I did or not. There was so much confusion that I can't recall exactly the times and exactly what was said. I think this is documented, perhaps.
Mr.Rankin. Where?
Mr.Curry. On the TV film.
Mr.Rankin. I see. Did you give out any interviews to the newspapers?
Mr.Curry. I don't recall giving any interviews to newspapers.
Mr.Rankin. Any news releases?
Mr.Curry. Not that I recall.
Mr.Dulles. Do you recall having told them that you had sent a radio order out to surround the book depository?
Mr.Curry. I didn't do that, sir. That was one of my inspectors, I believe that gave that order. I was riding in the Presidential parade and approximately a hundred feet, I guess, ahead of the President's car, and when we heard this first report, I couldn't tell exactly where it was coming from.
RepresentativeFord. What report are you talking about now?
Mr.Curry. A sharp report as a firecracker or as it was it was the report of this rifle.
We were just approaching an underpass, and there were some people aroundon each side of the underpass, up in the railroad yards, and I thought at first that perhaps this was a railroad torpedo, it was a sharp crack.
Inspector—no, it wasn't Inspector, it was Lawson of the Secret Service and Mr. Sorrels of the Dallas office of the Secret Service, and Sheriff Bill Decker and myself were in this car.
Mr.Dulles. I may be anticipating.
Mr.Rankin. That is all right, go right ahead.
Mr.Curry. I said what was that, was that a firecracker, or someone said this. I don't recall whether it was me or someone else, and from the report I couldn't tell whether it was coming from the railroad yard or whether it was coming from behind but I said over the radio, I said, "Get someone up in the railroad yard and check."
And then about this time. I believe it was motorcycle Officer Chaney rode up beside of me and looking back in the rear view mirror I could see some commotion in the President's car and after this there had been two more reports, but these other two reports I could tell were coming behind instead of from the railroad yards.
Mr.Rankin. What do you mean by reports?
Mr.Curry. Sharp reports as a rifle or a firecracker, and looking in the rear view mirror then I could see some commotion in President Kennedy's car.
Mr.Rankin. You could distinctly hear and tell that the two later reports were from behind?
Mr.Curry. Behind.
Mr.Rankin. Rather than front?
Mr.Curry. That is right.
Mr.Rankin. You weren't sure whether the first one was from behind or in front?
Mr.Curry. I couldn't tell because perhaps of the echo orthe——
RepresentativeFord. Where were you sitting in the car, sir?
Mr.Curry. I was driving.
RepresentativeFord. You were driving?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir.
RepresentativeFord. When you heard the first report, did you grab a communications set and give this order?
Mr.Curry. Almost immediately.
RepresentativeFord. What was the order that you gave?
Mr.Curry. As I recall it, "Get someone up in the railroad yard to check those people." There was already an officer up there.
Mr.Rankin. How do you know that?
Mr.Curry. They assigned officers to every overpass.
We went with the Secret Service, Batchelor and Chief Lunday had went over this route with Secret Service agents Lawson and Sorrels and they had run the route 2 or 3 days prior to this and pointed out every place where they wanted security officers, and we placed them there where they asked for them.
Mr.Rankin. Did you see an officer there when you looked up?
Mr.Curry. I couldn't recognize him, but I could see an officer whoever it was.
RepresentativeFord. Did you get this order over the PA system before the second and third shots?
Mr.Curry. I don't believe so, I am not sure. I am not positive. Because they were in pretty rapid succession. But after I noticed some commotion in the President's car and a motorcycle officer ran up aside of me and I asked him what had happened and he said shots had been fired, and I said, "Has the President been hit or has the President's party been hit?
And he said, "I am sure they have."
I said, "Take us to the hospital immediately," and I got on the radio and I told them to notify Parkland Hospital to stand by for an emergency, and this is approximately, I would say, perhaps a couple of miles or so to Parkland Hospital from this, and we went to Parkland and I notified them to have them to be standing by for an emergency, and we went out there under siren escort and went into the emergency entrance.
As I recall, I got out of the car and rushed to the emergency entrance and told them to bring the stretchers out, and they loaded the President, PresidentKennedy and Governor Connally onto stretchers and took them into the hospital.
Mrs. Kennedy, I went into the hospital, and I know she was outside the door of where they were working with the President, and someone suggested to her that she sit down and she was very calm, and she said, "I am all right. Some of your people need to sit down more than I do."
But everyone was very concerned. I remained around the hospital. I was contacted by some of the special sergeants who asked me to stand by in my car and get another car and take the President, then Vice President Johnson to Love Field.
Mr.Rankin. You have told us about that, haven't you?
Mr.Curry. Yes; I have told you about that.
Mr.Rankin. And you told us you attended the swearing in of President Johnson?
Mr.Curry. Yes; I did.
Mr.Rankin. And that you waited until the plane left and then you came back?
Mr.Curry. To my offices.
Mr.Rankin. And Judge Hughes left at the same time?
Mr.Curry. Yes.
Mr.Rankin. Now, did you do anything about the assassination after this or at some time?
Mr.Curry. No. I left this to be handled by Captain Fritz who is in charge of all homicide investigations.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know whether anything was done, did you make inquiry?
Mr.Curry. Yes; he told me they were interrogating him, Oswald about the assassination and trying to check on the movements of Oswald, and they obtained, I understand, some search warrants to go out and search, they found out where he had been staying.
Mr.Rankin. What about the building immediately after the occasion?
Mr.Curry. It was sealed off, Inspector Sawyer who is a uniformed police inspector, I think was the first ranking officer to the School Depository Building. He would have had to come perhaps 10 blocks. I believe he told me that he was about at Akard and Maine when this came on the air that we had had some trouble down there.
Mr.Rankin. You say you imagine. Is this something that they reported to you?
Mr.Curry. Yes. He told me later that he did immediately go to the scene of the Texas—of where the shots were fired from.
Mr.Rankin. What did he tell you he did then?
Mr.Curry. He took charge of the investigation.
Mr.Rankin. What did he do about the building?
Mr.Curry. He had it sealed off. This perhaps would have been perhaps, 5, 8, 10 minutes after theoriginal——
Mr.Rankin. About what time?
Mr.Curry. I would say perhaps 12:40.
Mr.Rankin. And was that before or after a description of Lee Oswald was put on the radio?
Mr.Curry. I couldn't say whether it was before or after.
Mr.Rankin. What else happened?
Mr.Curry. I think he perhaps was the one who gave that description, I am not sure.
A deputy chief of services who was in the pilot car ahead of us, was at Love Field, and he had some more Secret Service men with him, I believe.
Mr.Rankin. Who is that?
Mr.Curry. George Lumpkin. George L. Lumpkin. He asked me at the hospital if I didn't want him to go back to the Texas School Book Depository and assist in the search of the building and I told him yes, and he did go back, and took over on the search of the building then.
Mr.Rankin. Did he report to you later what he did about that?
Mr.Curry. Yes, he did. He told me that he had sealed it off and he appointedtwo search teams to search the building from top to bottom, starting at the bottom and going to the top and starting at the top and going to the bottom.
Mr.McCloy. Who was this man?
Mr.Curry. George L. Lumpkin.
Mr.McCloy. Secret Service?
Mr.Curry. No.
Mr.McCloy. On your staff?
Mr.Curry. No; he is a police officer.
Mr.Rankin. Was he an assistant chief?
Mr.Curry. He is not an assistant chief. Each of the divisions have a deputy chief in charge of them. I have one assistant chief and four deputy chiefs.
Mr.Rankin. And this was a deputy chief?
Mr.Curry. A deputy chief; yes.
Mr.Rankin. Under your system the highest civil service status is inspector, is it?
Mr.Curry. That is correct.
Mr.Rankin. And the other officers are appointed?
Mr.Curry. Appointed, yes.
Mr.Rankin. By you?
Mr.Curry. By me, yes.
Mr.Rankin. Now, these two teams that you referred to that the deputy chief appointed to search the building, do you know how many officers were in those teams?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know whether the search was made?
Mr.Curry. They reported to me that it was made, yes.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know what else happened in regard to the building or the search for the assassin?
Mr.Curry. After it was searched I understand it was sealed off and they were asked not to let anybody come or go from the building until further orders.
Mr.Rankin. Then what happened after that?
Mr.Dulles. Could I inquire there. I thought it was sealed off previous to the search according to your previous testimony.
Mr.Curry. It was. But after they searched it and all of the investigators left there, they asked Mr. Truly, I believe, the building manager, not to let anybody come and go.
Mr.Dulles. Was that supplemented, though, by the police?
Mr.Curry. Yes; I believe we had officers there.
Mr.Dulles. Then there were in a way two sealings off. One that you gave the order was given 8 or 10minutes——
Mr.Curry. Almost immediately, yes.
Mr.Dulles. After the assassination, and then the other one was after this search had been made.
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. There is one element I am not clear on, I may be anticipating, Mr. Rankin. But I believe we have had some testimony heretofore, that Mr.—an officer went in with Mr. Truly into the building.
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir.
Mr.McCloy. And started to go upstairs, and they ran into Oswald on the second floor. Was that before the inspector got there?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; I am sure it was, because this officer was there at the scene.
Mr.McCloy. Do you remember that officer's name?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; I don't. It is in the record.
Mr.Belin. It is officer M. L. Baker. He was in the motorcade.
Mr.McCloy. Did M. L. Baker purport to seal off the building?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; he didn't. The first officers in there were rushing up to the upper floors.
Mr.McCloy. The first man who sealed the buildingwas——
Mr.Curry. I believe will be Inspector Sawyer.
Mr.McCloy. Inspector Sawyer?
Mr.Curry. I believe he would be the first to issue orders. I could be mistaken on that but as I recall he was the first officer.
Mr.Dulles. You did not give those orders yourself?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; not myself.
RepresentativeFord. How many men participated in the search of the building?
Mr.Curry. I would just have to guess but I would suggest probably 20 people.
RepresentativeFord. Did you check with those who went through this process?
Mr.Curry. No; I didn't check with each individual officer.
RepresentativeFord. Did you get a report?
Mr.Curry. I got a report from Inspector Sawyer, and also from Chief Lumpkin as to the manner in which it was searched.
RepresentativeFord. How long did it take them, do you have any idea?
Mr.Curry. I believe they were, perhaps, maybe a couple of hours altogether, searching that building.
RepresentativeFord. Did they give you an oral or written report on what they found or didn't find?
Mr.Curry. I believe there were some written reports made. I don't recall now.
RepresentativeFord. If there are written reports could we have them?
Mr.Curry. Ithink——
Mr.Rankin. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
RepresentativeFord. Back on the record.
Are you familiar with any written report, Chief, on what transpired during the search of the building?
Mr.Curry. Only what Deputy Chief Lumpkin in his report here in a chronological report that we made, and you have this, as best we could, after this occurred, the deputy chiefs and myself all sat down together went over this from the time we received notice that the President would visit Dallas until the shooting of Oswald, and step by step we tried to go through this as to what we did, and this is what we call a chronological report.
RepresentativeFord. If there is a report in anybody's files in the Dallas Police department on what transpired during this investigation of the building, there would be no reason why that report couldn't be made available?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; if we have one it certainly would be made available.
RepresentativeFord. Will you check the files of the department and if there is a report available will you submit it to the Commission, please?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; I was trying to.
Mr.Rankin. Chief Curry, I think that your chronological report does not purport to go into the detail of how the search was made and so forth.
Mr.Curry. No, sir; it just states in here how Chief Lumpkin, how he formed the search and it tells something about while he was there.
Mr.McCloy. The chronological report part of our record yet?
Mr.Belin. We have a chronological report, yes.
Mr.McCloy. Is this the same one as the Chief is looking at?
Mr.Rankin. We will check that.
Mr.Dulles. It is not yet an exhibit, is it?
Mr.Rankin. No; we have, and we were discussing yesterday, a number of items in the form of affidavits and other evidence that we will have to introduce into the record of the Commission before we get through which has been examined by the staff and in some cases called to the Commission's attention but is not formally a matter of record and we will have to complete that before we can complete our report.
Mr.McCloy. Is that the same chronological report that the Chief has?
Mr.Curry. If it isn't I can leave you these copies but they were submitted to Attorney General Carr, two copies. This is what is in this report. "Upon arrival,"—this is Chief Lumpkin—"Upon arrival at the Texas School Book Depository we found Inspector Sawyer was in front of the building and with the assistance of other officers was in the process of detaining anyone or everyone who had any knowledge whatsoever of the shooting. This was discussed with Sawyer. We decided that we would get all persons in that category awayfrom the crowd by sending them to Sheriff Decker's office"—which is about a half block from here—"at Main and Houston to be held for further interrogation. Homicide Detective Turner was sent to the sheriff's office to represent the homicide bureau of our department and interrogating these witnesses."
Mr.Dulles. That is where the sheriff's office was?
Mr.Curry. Main and Houston, it runs.
"Detective Senkel was released back to Captain Fritz to assist in the investigation. He had come down. Sawyer had placed guards on the building to prevent anyone from going or coming. Sawyer organized a detail to check all persons and automobiles on the parking lot surrounding the Texas School Book Depository Building, taking their names, telephone numbers, addresses, places of employment, and later on in the afternoon those vehicles that were not taken out were checked by license number. Several of the U.S. Alcohol Tax units assisted in the search.
"At that time Lumpkin entered the building and instructed that it be completely sealed off and that no one be allowed to leave or enter."
This probably was some, I would say, some 30 or 40 minutes after the original shots were fired. He had gone on to Parkland Hospital to me and I told him there to return to assist in the handling of this matter.
Mr.McCloy. In your judgment is that the first sealing off of the building that took place?
Mr.Curry. No; I think Inspector Sawyer, when he arrived he took some steps to seal off the building.
Mr.Rankin. You have already testified about Inspector Sawyer and you said you thought he was about 10 or 12 blocks away.
Mr.Curry. I believe so. I believe he was about at Main and Akard Streets which would be about 10 blocks away when he heard of this incident occurring and he immediately went down there.
Mr.Dulles. And the first order to seal off was given some 10 minutes, I think you testified, in that neighborhood?
Mr.Curry. To the best of my knowledge.
Mr.Dulles. After the assassination?
Mr.Curry. Yes.
Mr.Rankin. You don't know just what he did about sealing the building, did you?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; I don't. I imagine he placed men on the front and back doors and asked them not to let anyone come or go without finding out who they were.
Mr.Dulles. Who would know that fact as to when that order was given, that would be Sawyer?
Mr.Rankin. Officer Sawyer would be the one who would really know that fact?
Mr.Curry. I believe so.
Mr.Rankin. And whatever he would say about it you think would be correct?
Mr.Curry. I do. Because we already have a deposition from him that tells about the sealing of the building, and it was not done immediately when he came.
RepresentativeFord. Would it be appropriate at this time to put that deposition in the record at this point?
Mr.Rankin. I wonder if it would be satisfactory to the Commission, in view of the inquiry by Commissioner Ford, if we would, the staff would, tender at this point the portion of the deposition that relates to how the building was sealed, and then have a reference to this point in the place where it is offered in evidence in regular course.
RepresentativeFord. That would be satisfactory to me as far as the particular point we are discussing at the moment.
Mr.Rankin. We will do that then.
Now, Chief, would you tell us the next thing that you know of that happened about the search for the assassin, after the search of the depository building that you described?
Mr.Curry. The next thing I can tell you about, I remained out, as I say, at Love Field until the planes departed. I went back to the office.
Mr.Dulles. At about what time would you place that?
Mr.Curry. I believe it was about 4 o'clock I believe when I returned to the office.
Mr.Dulles. It was 4 o'clock when you returned to the office from Love Field?
Mr.Curry. I believe so, I am not positive.
When I arrived they were in the process of, Captain Fritz and his men, were in the process of investigating this murder of Tippit and also the assassination of the President.
Mr.Rankin. Did you make an inquiry in regard to the progress?
Mr.Curry. I think I did. I asked him how he was coming along and he said they were making good progress.
Mr.Rankin. Then what happened after that?
Mr.Curry. They had had a couple of showups with Oswald so witnesses could attempt to identify him.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know whether they had gone out to Beckley Street to the place where he had stayed?
Mr.Curry. I understood they had and I understood they went back the next day.
Mr.Rankin. What do you mean by a showup?
Mr.Curry. Well, it is customary when you have suspects in a crime where you have witnesses, that they be taken into a room and allowed, the witnesses, to observe them in the presence of other people.
Mr.Rankin. You have a room for this purpose?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; we do.
Mr.Rankin. Will you describe briefly what that room is like?
Mr.Curry. It is a police assemblyroom where we hold our regular rollcalls. They have a stage whereby prisoners are brought up on this stage.
Mr.Rankin. How large is the room?
Mr.Curry. The room, I would say, is perhaps 50 feet long and 20 feet wide.
Mr.Rankin. Who was allowed in the room at the time of this showup?
Mr.Curry. Presumably only the news media and police officers. I have been told that Jack Ruby was seen in this showuproom also.
Mr.Rankin. About what time of the day was that?
Mr.Curry. As I recall, this was fairly late Friday night, I believe.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know who was there to try to identify Lee Oswald?
Mr.Curry. No, I don't. The news media, a number of them, had continued to say, "Let us see him. What are you doing to him? How does he look?"
I think one broadcaster that I had heard or someone had told me about, said that Lee Harvey Oswald is in custody of the police department, and that something about he looked all right when he went in there, they wouldn't guarantee how he would look after he had been in custody of the Dallas police for a couple of hours, which intimated to me that when I heard this that they thought we were mistreating the prisoner.
Mr.Rankin. Did you do anything about that?
Mr.Curry. I offered then at that time—they wanted to see him and they wanted to know why they couldn't see him and I said we had no objection to anybody seeing him.
And when he was being moved down the hall to go back up in the jail they would crowd on him and we just had to surround him by officers to get to take him to the jail elevator to take him back upstairs, to let him rest from the interrogation.
Mr.Rankin. And this showup, how many people attended?
Mr.Curry. I would think perhaps 75 people. I am just making an estimate. I told them if they would not try to overrun the prisoner and not try to interrogate him we would bring him to the showup room. There was—this, thinking also that these newspaper people had been all over Love Field, and had been down at the assassination scene, and we didn't know but what some of them might recognize him as being present, they might have seen him around some of these places.
Now, Mr. Wade, the district attorney, was present, at this time and his assistant was present, and as I recall, I asked Mr. Wade, I said, "Do you think this will be all right?" And he said, "I don't see anything wrong with it."
Mr.Rankin. Did you find out where Jack Ruby was during this showup?
Mr.Curry. I didn't know Jack Ruby. Actually the first time I saw Jack Ruby to know Jack Ruby was in a bond hearing or I believe it was a bond hearing, and I recognized him sitting at counsel's table.
The impression has been given that a great many of the Dallas Police Department knew Jack Ruby.
Mr.Rankin. What is the fact in that regard?
Mr.Curry. The fact of that as far as I know there are a very small percentage of the Dallas Police Department that knows Jack Ruby.
Mr.Rankin. Did you make an inquiry to find out?
Mr.Curry. Yes; I did, yes, sir. And so far as I know most of the men who knew Jack Ruby are men who were assigned to the vice squad of the police department or who had worked the radio patrol district where he had places and in thecourse——
Mr.Rankin. How many men would that be?
Mr.Curry. I am guessing, perhaps 25 men. This is merely a guess on my part.
Mr.Rankin. How large is your police force?
Mr.Curry. Approximately 1,200. I would say 1,175 people. I would say less, I believe less than 50 people knew him. From what I have found out since then that he is the type that if he saw a policeman, or he came to his place of business he would probably run up and make himself acquainted with him.
I also have learned since this time he tried to ingratiate himself with any of the news media or any of the reporters who had anything to do, he was always constantly trying to get publicity for his clubs or for himself.
Mr.Rankin. Now, at this showup, is there some screen between the person in custody?
Mr.Curry. There is a time—there wasn't at this time.
Mr.Rankin. Why not?
Mr.Curry. No particular reason. They just, a lot of the news media say they didn't think they could see him up there or couldn't get pictures of him up there and we brought him in there in front of the screen and kept him there as I recall only about 4 or 5 minutes and shoving up close to him and taking shots of him and took him upstairs and I believe the district attorney and his assistant stayed down and perhaps talked to the news media for several minutes.
But we took Harvey Oswald back upstairs and I think I went back to my office.
Mr.Dulles. This was the evening of Friday, was it not?
Mr.Curry. I believe so, sir.
Mr.Dulles. Did you say Ruby was present that evening?
Mr.Curry. I have understood he was. But to my own knowledge, I wouldn't have known him because I didn't know him.
Mr.McCloy. You said you first saw Ruby when?
Mr.Curry. In a trial. I believe it was for a bond hearing where they were attempting to get bond for him. And I saw him sitting at a counsel table and recognized him from pictures I had seen of him in the paper.
Mr.Dulles. This is some time before the assassination?
Mr.McCloy. This is the trial incident to the trial of Ruby, as I understand it?
Mr.Dulles. You had not seen him before?
Mr.Curry. No, sir.
Mr.McCloy. It was a bond hearing incident to the trial?
Mr.Curry. If I had seen him I wouldn't have known him.
Mr.McCloy. I don't want to again interrupt but I don't know whether we have passed by all of the questions you wanted to ask the chief in regard to the motorcade and the time of the assassination.
I thought maybe we might ask him whether or what was his estimate of the speed of the motorcade, for example.
Mr.Rankin. We haven't covered that period because of the way we started, and I think we could go back, Chief, if you will, to, say, at the point the motorcade left Main Street and started down Houston, and then down Elm up to the time of the shots.
Will you describe that, where you and what the motorcade consisted of?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; I was—there was a pilot car ahead of us with Deputy Chief Lumpkin that was perhaps two or three blocks ahead of us and had been preceding us all the way from Love Field to see that the route was open and reporting back by radio to us, and this was for the purpose, if we had any wrecks or congestion to where it looked like the motorcade could be stopped that we could change our routes and get around them and also to let us know how the crowd was.
He had been preceding us all this way. There has been some question as to why this motorcade would not proceed on down Main Street.
Mr.Rankin. Will you explain that to the Commission?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; I can. I will make another diagram here, if you wish me to.
Mr.Rankin. Mr. McCloy asked about whether the chronological report that Chief Curry was examining during part of his testimony was available to the Commission. We have now searched the Commission files and we find that a copy of that exact report has been available to the Commission and we have it here. It is a Commissiondocument——
Mr.Redlich. It is in Commission Document 81.1.
RepresentativeFord. Will this report be made a part of the record?
Mr.Rankin. We haven't decided that question but we will examine it and report to the Commission later if it is not made a part of the record, why we recommend that it not be. It may very well be amongst the documents that would be made part of the record in regular course when we examine all of the material for that purpose. Is that a satisfactory handling of it?
RepresentativeFord. I think it is. I haven't had an opportunity to examine it. But if it is a part of the record, I suspect it ought to be made a part at this point since it has been referred to by the testimony of the chief. But it is something that could be discussed later, and if it should be, it could be put into the record at this point.
Mr.Rankin. I would like to ask leave of the Chairman then to examine it with greater care after the testimony of the chief is taken and be able to make it a part of the record at this point unless I report back to the Commission that for some reason it would not be desirable.
Mr.Dulles. That would be we would proceed in regard to this chronological report we would proceed in the same way as we have suggested we would with regard to the other depositions that were taken in Dallas.
Mr.Rankin. Except my offer before, Mr. Chairman, was that the portion of the deposition that would relate to the matters described, that is the sealing of the building, would, in fact, be incorporated into this record at that point. And that the balance of it would be offered at some later date as a part of the record of the Commission.
Here I wanted to reserve the question as to whether it should be a part of the record because of my desire first to examine it in detail and see if there is any reason why it should not and then report back to the Commission.
Mr.Dulles. You will report back to the Commission. It will not be excluded unless you so report to the Commission.
Mr.Rankin. That is right.
Mr.Dulles. And the reason therefor?
Mr.Curry. This sketch.
Mr.Rankin. Will you mark that sketch you have just made Exhibit 702 please, and 703?
(Commission Exhibits Nos. 702 and 703 were marked for identification.)
Mr.Curry. In the diagram, 702, Exhibit 702, the motorcade was going west on Main Street, there is a triple underpass there. There are three streets and they converge into one wide street down through a triple underpass, what we call a triple underpass.
Mr.Rankin. Where you are talking about the underpass is that underpass on Main Street?
Mr.Curry. It is just west of Houston Street and runs parallel with Houston Street. And Main Street—now Houston Street runs in a north-south direction, Main Street, Elm Street, and Commerce Street the three principal streets thatempty into this triple underpass are east-west, Elm Street is a one-way street west, Commerce is one-way east, Main Street is a two-way street going east and west. Wehad——
Mr.Rankin. You were going to explain why you couldn't continue right down Main.
Mr.Curry. We would—we left the parade route up to the host committee. They chose the route, asking that we go down Main Street, and then we would go on to what is known as the triple, through the triple underpass onto Stemmons Expressway. It was necessary to get on this expressway to get to the Trade Mart, the building where the dinner or luncheon would be held.
But had we proceeded on down Main Street, we could not have gotten onto Stemmons Expressway unless we had had public works to come in and remove some curbing and build some barricades over it.
So, in talking with the Secret Service people they suggested we come to Main Street to Elm Street, turn one block north and turn back west and go through the triple underpass on the Elm Street side and at this place Elm Street is two-way.
So that was the reason that it was necessary to take this motorcade one block north, and then turn west again in order that we could get on the triple, through the triple underpass onto the Stemmons Expressway without coming down and removing some curbing or building over the curbing and disturbing the regular flow of traffic.
Mr.Rankin. Was there any consideration given prior to establishing the parade route to removing this curbing andgoing——
Mr.Curry. No, sir; nothing was said about it at all. In fact, when they were choosing the routes for this parade, we left it entirely up to the host committee and to the Secret Service.
They asked us what we thought about certain routes. We told them what we thought would be the most direct routes, and they chose to come through the downtown area, I think for the purpose they wanted the President to see as much of the people as possible and wanted the people to have an opportunity to see him.
Mr.Rankin. Going to the Trade Mart building would be assumed that you would go by the Texas Depository Building?
Mr.Curry. If we went on Stemmons Expressway and that is the way they wanted to go. The only other way we could have gone. We could have continued down Main Street passed through the underpass about a block past there to Industrial Boulevard and then we would have gone Industrial Boulevard and made an entrance from the Trade Mart, from the north side of the Trade Mart there. But it was decided with the Secret Service people that we would go Main to Houston, Houston to Elm, Elm through to triple underpass onto the expressway and the expressway to the Trade Mart where they would come off and had parking facilities reserved and had a security setup.
Mr.Rankin. Will you describe the cars ofthe——
Mr.McCloy. Just before that, how far before November 22 was that route decided on?
Mr.Curry. Approximately 2 days or so, I believe. That is in this chronological record.
Mr.Dulles. When was this route published?
Mr.McCloy. That route was published.
Mr.Curry. It was published perhaps 2 days before, a day or two before.
Mr.Rankin. Is the Elm Street route a shorter route than to go by Industrial Boulevard?
Mr.Curry. It's a more scenic route. The Stemmons Expressway was and it was easier to travel, traffic is easier to control on it, it is a 10-lane highway, and the Industrial Highway is heavily traveled by commercial vehicles and goes through a commercial section of the industrial area. And there was a more scenic route and traffic was more—a freer flow of traffic anyway.
Mr.Rankin. Were you involved in the discussion about the choice of route?
Mr.Curry. Not particularly. Chief Batchelor, my assistant chief, and ChiefLunday. I discussed this some with the Secret Service Agent Sorrels, and Lawson in a staff meeting at city hall.
Mr.Rankin. What was that discussion?
Mr.Curry. Well, we, when I say we, I mean my staff and I, we told them what we thought would be the most direct route.
Mr.Rankin. What did you say that would have been?
Mr.Curry. It would have been to come into Lemmon Avenue, to Central Expressway if they were coming through town and over that route.
Now, if they were going directly to the Trade Mart it would have been to come in Lemmon to Inwood Road and down Inwood to Hines, and Hines to Industrial and Industrial into—but this would not have taken them through the downtown area.
Mr.Rankin. Then if they were going to go through the downtown area what did you say about the route that should be taken for that?
Mr.Curry. This was probably the most direct route that they chose except they could have come in what we term the Central Expressway to Main Street, and then west on Main Street right down the route that was taken.
They chose rather to come in on Lemmon Avenue to Turtle Creek, and here again this is a more scenic route and more people would have an opportunity to see the motorcade. And followed Turtle Creek into Cedar Springs, to Harwood and south on Harwood to Main Street, west on Main to Houston, north on Houston to Elm and west on Elm to Stemmons Expressway.
Mr.Rankin. Have you described the cars in the motorcade? Their positions?
Mr.Curry. I have them listed here, I couldn't tell you other than the front part of the motorcade but they are in this report.
Mr.Rankin. Yes. Tell us the front part that you recall.
Mr.Curry. I had Deputy Chief Lumpkin, and he had two Secret Service men with him, I believe, out of Washington, and a Colonel Wiedemeyer who is the East Texas Section Commander of the Army Reserve in the area, he was with him. They were out about, they were supposed to stay about a quarter of a mile ahead of us and I was in the lead car.
Mr.Rankin. Who was with you?
Mr.Curry. Inspector, not inspector, but Sheriff Bill Decker, Sorrels of the Secret Service, and Mr. Lawson, I believe he was out of the Washington office of the Secret Service. And immediately behind us then was the President's car.
Mr.Rankin. You were driving your car?
Mr.Curry. I was driving my car.
Mr.Rankin. You had radio communication in that?
Mr.Curry. Yes; I had radio communication with my motorcycle officers, with my downtown office, and Secret Service had a portable radio that they had radio contact with their people.
Mr.Rankin. Yes. Now, what was in the next car.
Mr.Curry. The President's party was in that car. Then following him was the Secret Service vehicle and then I understand was the Vice President's car, and then behind him was a Secret Service car. And then they had cars lined up as listed in this report here, how they were lined up after that.
Mr.Rankin. Now, after you turned the corner off of Main going onto Houston, will you describe what happened as you recall it?
Mr.Curry. Nothing unusual occurred. We were, I would say traveling perhaps 10 miles an hour, would be the ordinary speed to make a turn, and probably was making that speed after we made a turn from north, going north on Houston to west on Elm Street,and——
Mr.Rankin. Did you slow down for the turn onto Elm?
Mr.Curry. Perhaps just a little. I would say we were probably going 8 to 10 miles an hour. And as we were moving downward the triple underpass which is about an ordinary block we were beginning to pick up a little speed.
Mr.Rankin. How much of a descent is there between where the Depository Building is and the place in the underpass?
Mr.Curry. It is a pretty good little drop. Within the space of a block it drops down enough to go under an underpass.
Mr.Rankin. It would be more than the height of a car?
Mr.Curry. Yes; two heights.
Mr.Rankin. Two heights.
Mr.Curry. I think it is a 13- or 14-foot clearance.
Mr.Rankin. Trucks could get under that?
Mr.Curry. Yes.
Mr.Rankin. Then what happened?
Mr.Curry. Then we heard this report.
Mr.Rankin. Now, how far along from the corner of Elm and Houston were you at the time of that?
Mr.Curry. I think we were perhaps a couple of hundred feet or so.
Mr.Rankin. How fast were you going then?
Mr.Curry. I think we were going between 10 or 12 miles an hour, maybe up to 15 miles an hour.
Mr.Rankin. Then what happened?
Mr.Curry. We heard this report, and then all of the tension that followed I have told you.
Mr.Rankin. Yes.
Mr.Dulles. What was the distance between your car and the President's car approximately?
Mr.Curry. Mr. Dulles, I believe to the best of my knowledge it would have been 100, 125 feet.
Mr.Dulles. Between your car and the President's car?
Mr.Curry. Yes, we stayed pretty close to them. In the planning of this motorcade, we had had more motorcycles lined up to be with the President's car, but the Secret Service didn't want that many.
Mr.Rankin. Did they tell you why?
Mr.Curry. We actually had two on each side but we wanted four on each side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did.
Mr.Rankin. How many motorcycles did you have?
Mr.Curry. I think we had four on each side of him.
Mr.Rankin. How many did you want to have?
Mr.Curry. We actually had two on each side side but we wanted four on each side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did.
Mr.Rankin. So that you in fact only had two on each side of his car?
Mr.Curry. Two on each side and they asked them to remain at the rear fender so if the crowd moved in on him they could move in to protect him from the crowd.
Mr.Rankin. Who asked him to stay at the rear fender?
Mr.Curry. I believe Mr. Lawson.
Mr.Rankin. The Secret Service man?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir. Also we had planned to have Captain Fritz and some of his homicide detectives immediately following the President's car which we have in the past, we have always done this.
Mr.Rankin. Now, would that be between the President's car and the Secret Service?
Mr.Curry. And the Secret Service. We have in past done this. We have been immediately behind the President's car.
Mr.Rankin. Did you propose that to someone?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir.
Mr.Rankin. Who did you propose it to?
Mr.Curry. To Mr. Lawson and Mr. Sellers.
Mr.Rankin. What did they say about that?
Mr.Curry. They didn't want it.
Mr.Rankin. Did they tell you why?
Mr.Curry. They said the Secret Service would be there.
Mr.Rankin. And then?
Mr.Curry. They said we can put this vehicle in between Captain Fritz and his detectives immediately at the end of the motorcade. They said, "No, wewant a white or marked car there bringing up the rear," so Fritz and his men were not in the motorcade.
Mr.Dulles. What do you mean in the past when there have been previous Presidents visiting Dallas or other dignitaries?
Mr.Curry. Yes; that is right; other dignitaries. Yes; our thinking along this was that in the past there have been this. Captain Fritz, he is a very experienced homicide man so are his detectives. They know the city very well. They have been there very, Captain Fritz to my knowledge, over 40 years.
It is customary that they in trying to protect a person if they are in the immediate vicinity, and Captain Fritz told me later, he said, "I believe that had we been there we might possibly have got that man before he got out of that building or we would have maybe had the opportunity of firing at him while he was still firing" because they were equipped, would have been equipped with high-powered rifles and machineguns, submachine guns.
RepresentativeFord. Where were they instead of being at the motorcade.
Mr.Curry. Actually they were not in the motorcade at all. They followed up the motorcade.
RepresentativeFord. Were they in a car following up the motorcade?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; they were in a car.
RepresentativeFord. How far away would they have been?
Mr.Curry. I think they would have been at the rear, I believe.
RepresentativeFord. Captain Fritz is going to be here later.
Mr.Rankin. Yes.
RepresentativeFord. And fill in what he did at that time?
Mr.Rankin. Yes.
Mr.Curry. But we tried to do what the Secret Service asked us to do, and we didn't try to override them because we didn't feel it was our responsibility, that it was their responsibility to tell us what they wanted and we would try to provide it.
Mr.Rankin. Did you refuse to do anything that they asked you to do?
Mr.Curry. No, sir; not to my knowledge we don't—we didn't refuse them to do anything.
Mr.Dulles. You considered them to be the boss in this particular situation?
Mr.Curry. Yes, sir; the Secret Service; yes, sir.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know or can you tell us approximately where the President's car was at the time of the first shot that you heard?
Mr.Curry. To the best of my knowledge, I would say it was approximately halfway between Houston Street and the underpass, which would be, I would say probably 125–150 feet west of Houston Street.