Mr.Rankin. But he hadn't been brought before the justice of the peace or magistrate yet on that complaint, had he?
Mr.Wade. The justice of the peace was there in the office and took it in the homicide. Oswald was in homicide, also, but he is in a separate office.
Like I told you, I never did see Oswald except in that lineup downstairs. That was the first time I had seen him.
Mr.Rankin. Was that when you told the justice of the peace that he ought to have him before him to tell him his rights and so forth?
Mr.Wade. Yes; it was some time during that hour, this went on for about an hour down there, everything.
Well, during that interview somebody said, and the thing—Oswald belonged to, was he a Communist, something generally to that effect.
Mr.Rankin. They asked you that?
Mr.Wade. I was asked that. And I said, well, now, I don't know about that but they found some literature, I understand, some literature dealing with Free Cuba Movement. Following this—and so I looked up and Jack Ruby is in the audience and he said, no, it is the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. Well, he corrected me, you see, to show you why I got attracted to his attention, why someone in the audience would speak up and answer a question.
Mr.Dulles. You hadn't known him before?
Mr.Wade. I had never known him, to my knowledge. He is a man about town, and I had seen him before, because when I saw him in there, and I actually thought he was a part of the press corps at the time.
Mr.Rankin. Were any of your assistants or people working for you there at that showup?
Mr.Wade. I don't believe there were any of them there now. If there is any of them, it is Alexander, because he is the only one down there, but I think he is still up in homicide.
I will go further on that, some of my assistants know him, but he was in my office 2 days before this with a hot check or something where he was trying to collect a hot check or pay someone. I think he was trying to pay someone else's hot check off, I don't know what it was, I didn't see him. He talked to my check section. I found this out later.
Mr.Rankin. By "he" youmean——
Mr.Wade. Ruby, Jack Ruby.
Mr.Rankin. Yes.
Mr.Wade. He was in another office of mine, since this all came out, he was in there with a bunch of the police, we were trying a case on pornography, some of my assistants were, and my assistant came in his office during the noon hour after coming from the court, this was 2 or 3 days before the assassination and Ruby was sitting there in his office with five or six Dallas police officers. In fact, he was sitting in my assistant's desk and he started to sit down and asked who he was and the officer said, "Well, that is Jacky Ruby who runs the Carousel Club," so he had been down there.
I don't know him personally—I mean I didn't know who he was. It was one of these things I had seen the man, I imagine, but I had no idea who he was, and I will even go further, after it was over, this didn't come out in the trial, as they left down there, Ruby ran up to me and he said, "Hi Henry" he yelled real loud, he yelled. "Hi, Henry," and put his hand to shake hands with me and I shook hands with him. And he said, "Don't you know me?" And I am trying to figure out whether I did or not. And he said, "I am Jack Ruby, I run the Vegas Club." And I said, "What are you doing in here?" It was in the basement of the city hall. He said, "I know all these fellows." Just shook his hand and said, "I know all these fellows." I still didn't know whether he was talking about the press or police all the time, but he shook his hands kind of like that and left me and I was trying to get out of the place which was rather crowded, and if you are familiar with that basement, and I was trying to get out of that hall. And here I heard someone call "Henry Wade wanted on the phone," this was about 1 o'clock in the morning or about 1 o'clock in the morning, and I gradually get around to the phone there, one of the police phones, and as I get there it is Jack Ruby, and station KLIF in Dallas on the phone. You see, he had gone there, this came out in the trial, that he had gone over there and called KLIF and said Henry Wade is down there, I will get you an interview with him.
Mr.Rankin. Who is this?
Mr.Wade. KLIF is the name of the radio station.
You see, I didn't know a thing, and I just picked up the phone and they said this is so and so at KLIF and started asking questions.
But that came out in the trial.
But to show that he was trying to be kind of the type of person who was wanting to think he was important, you know.
Mr.Rankin. Did you give him an interview over the telephone to KLIF?
Mr.Wade. Ruby?
Mr.Rankin. No.
Mr.Wade. I answered about two questions and hung up, but they had a man down there who later interviewed me before I got out of the building. But they just asked me had he been filed and one or two things.
Mr.Dulles. It was a KLIF reporter that you gave this to, not Ruby?
Mr.Wade. Not Ruby. Ruby was not on the phone, he had just gone out and called him and handed the phone to me. I thought I got a call from somebody, and picked it up and it was KLIF on the phone.
Mr.Rankin. On the pornography charge, was Ruby involved in that?
Mr.Wade. No, sir; I don't know why he was down there, actually. But there were six or seven police officers, special services of the Dallas police were officers in the thing and I don't know whether he was just interested in it or what he was down there for but he was down there, and I didn't know him. He has tried to leave the impression that he had known me a long time but it is one of those things, I have been in politics and sometimes there are a lot of faces I know that I don't know actually who they are, but I didn't know who he was and he actually introduced himself to me that night.
Well, that is about all I can recall of that night.
I went home then.
Mr.Rankin. You have told us all you remember about the showup?
Mr.Wade. I told you all, and, of course, all I know about it as far as my interview with the press. You can get more accurate, actually, by getting a transcript of it because I don't remember what all was asked, but I do remember the incident with Ruby and I know I told them that there would be no evidence given out in the case.
At that time, most of it had already been given out, however, by someone. I think by the police.
Now, the next morning, I don't know of anything else until the next morning. I went to the office about 9 o'clock.
Mr.Dulles. Could I ask a question?
Mr.Wade. Yes, sir.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Rankin. Do you have any particular transcript that you are speaking about?
Mr.Wade. No; I don't have anything. The thing about it is this was taken, this was on television and radio and all the networks. They had everything there set up and that is the only—that is the first of, I think, three times I was interviewed, but it was Friday night around between 12 and 1 o'clock. It was actually Saturday morning between 12 and 1.
Mr.Rankin. So there were a number of networks, possibly, and a number of the radio stations and television stations from the whole area?
Mr.Wade. The whole area and it actually wasn't set up for an interview with me. It was an interview, what I thought, with Fritz and Curry, and I thought I would stay for it, but when they got into the interviewing, I don't know what happened to them but they weren't there. They had left, or I was the one who was answering the questions about things I didn't know much about, to tell you the truth.
Has that got it cleared? Can I go to the next morning?
I will try to go a little and not forget anything.
The next morning I went to my office, probably, say, 9 o'clock Saturday morning. Waiting there for me was Robert Oswald, who was the brother of Lee Harvey Oswald. You probably have met him, but I believe his name is Robert is his brother.
I talked to him about an hour.
Mr.Rankin. What did you say to him and what did he say to you?
Mr.Wade. Well, we discussed the history of Lee Harvey Oswald and the—one of the purposes he came to me, he wanted his mother, Oswald's mother, and wife and him to see Oswald.
Mr.Rankin. Did he say this to you?
Mr.Wade. Yes; but we had already set it up, somebody, I don't know whether my office or the police, but he was set up to see him that morning at 11 o'clock, I believe, or 12 o'clock, some time.
Mr.Rankin. Did you do anything about it?
Mr.Wade. Yes, sir; I checked to see if it was arranged. I called Captain Fritz and told him that he wanted to see him, and he said they were going to let him see him. I don't know. I don't know the name, but it was either 11 o'clock or 12 o'clock Saturday morning.
I don't know whether he had requested or not, but that was the first time I had seen him. I don't know why he came to my office, but I used it to try to go into Lee Harvey Oswald's background some, and I also told him that there is a lot involved in this thing from a national point of view, and I said, "You appear to be a good citizen," which he did appear to me, "and I think you will render your country a great service if you will go up and tell Oswald to tell us all about the thing." That was part of the deal of my working for a statement from Oswald which didn't pan out, of course. Because I was going to interview Oswald Sunday afternoon when we got him into the county jail and I was going to attempt to get a statement from him.
Mr.Rankin. Did Robert tell you anything about Lee Harvey Oswald's background at that time?
Mr.Wade. He told me about in Europe, how in Russia, how they had had very little correspondence with them and he wrote to them renouncing or telling them he wanted to renounce his American citizenship and didn't want to have anything else to do with him. He said later that one of the letters changed some, I mean back, and then he said he was coming home, coming back and he had married and kind of his general history of the thing and he came back and I believe stayed with this Robert in Fort Worth for 2, 3, or 4 months. Now I say this is from memory, like I don't have—and they had helped him some, and said that Marina, the thing that impressed her was most your supermarkets, I think, more than anything else in this country, your A. & P. and the big, I guess you call them, supermarkets or whatever they are.
And he told me something about him going to New Orleans, but I gathered that they were not too close. I believe he told me this, that he hadn't seen him in close to a year prior to this, or a good while.
Now, it seemed to me like it was a year, and he said their families, they didn't have anything in common much, and he said, of course—I said "Do you think"—Isaid, "the evidence is pretty strong against your brother, what do you think about it?" He said, "Well, he is my brother, and I hate to think he would do this." He said, "I want to talk to him and ask him about it."
Now, I never did see him. Roughly, that is about all I remember from that conversation. We rambled around for quite a bit.
I know I was impressed because he got out and walked out the front of my office and in front of my office there were 15 or 20 press men wanting to ask him something, and he wouldn't say a word to them, he just walked off.
I told him they would be out there, and he said, "I won't have anything to say."
Mr.Dulles. Was this the morning after the assassination?
Mr.Wade. Yes, sir; Saturday morning.
Mr.Dulles. About what time?
Mr.Wade. I would say between 9 and 10 is when I talked with him.
And so the main purpose in the office, we believed, the main purpose of me and the lawyers in the office were briefing the law on whether to try Oswald for the murder of the President, whether you could prove the flight and the killing of Officer Tippit, which we became satisfied that we could, I mean from an evidentiary point of view.
Mr.Rankin. By "we" who do you mean, in your office?
Mr.Wade. Well, I think I had seven or eight in there, Bowie, and Alexander, and Dan Ellis, Jim Williamson, but there was a legal point.
My office was open, but that, with reference to this case, there were other things going on, but in reference to this case, this is what we spent our time trying to establish whether that would be admissible or not.
Mr.Rankin. Did you consult with any Federal officers in regard to how you should handle the case or what you should say about it at any time?
Mr.Wade. No; I didn't discuss, consult with any of them. I did talk to some of the FBI boys and I believe there was an inspector.
Mr.Rankin. Secret Service?
Mr.Wade. No.
Mr.Rankin. FBI?
Mr.Wade. There was an inspector of the FBI who called me two or three times. I don't remember.
Mr.Rankin. Did they tell you how to handle the case in any way?
Mr.Wade. I don't think so. I mean it wasn't really up to them.
Mr.Rankin. The only time you ever talked to Barefoot Sanders about it was in regard to this conspiracy, possibility of, that you have already described?
Mr.Wade. Frankly, that is hard to say. I think we talked off and on every day or two about developments in it, because, you see, well, I don't know whether we talked any more but before the killing by Ruby, but we had nearly a daily conversation about the files in the Oswald case, what we were going to do with them. You see, they were going to give them all to me, and at that stage we didn't know whether it was going to be a President's Commission or a congressional investigation or what. After the President's Commission was set up, I arranged through him and Miller here in the Justice Department that rather than give the files to me, to get the police to turn them over to the FBI and send them to you all, or photostat them and send them to you all.
Barefoot and I talked frequently, but I don't know of anything significant of the Oswald angle that we discussed, and we spent the last 2 months trying to get some of the FBI files to read on the Ruby trial. I mean we talked a lot but I don't know anything further about Oswald into it or anything on Ruby of any particular significance.
Mr.Rankin. Was Barefoot Sanders suggesting how you should handle the Oswald case except the time you already related?
Mr.Wade. I don't recall him doing, suggesting that.
Mr.Rankin. Any other Federal officers suggesting anything like that to you?
Mr.Wade. The only thing I remember is the inspector of the FBI whom I don't think I ever met. I was there in the police one time during this shuffle, and I think it was some time Saturday morning, and he said they should have nothing, no publicity on the thing, no statements.
Now, I don't know whether that was after Ruby shot Oswald or before,I don't know when it was, but I did talk with him and I know his concern which was that there was too much publicity.
Mr.Rankin. And he told you that, did he?
Mr.Wade. At some stage in it. I am thinking it was Sunday night which I know I talked with him Sunday night, but we are not that far along with it yet. But I don't know whether I talked to him previously or not.
Mr.Rankin. That is the only conversation of that type that you recall with any Federal officer?
Mr.Wade. That is all I recall. I am sure Barefoot and I discussed the publicity angle on it some, but I don't remember Barefoot suggesting how we handle it, but neither one of us knew whether it was his offense or mine, to begin with, for 2 or 3 hours because we had to select it.
Mr.Rankin. Do you know what Barefoot said about publicity when you did discuss it with him?
Mr.Wade. I don't recall anything.
Mr.Rankin. All right.
What happened next, as you recall?
Mr.Wade. I was going home. I went by the police station to talk to Chief Curry.
Mr.Rankin. Did you discuss the evidence then?
Mr.Wade. Well, at that time—you see, Chief Curry knew very little of the evidence at that stage. He should have known, but he didn't. But I discussed the thing with him and I told him there was too much evidence being put out in the case from his department, that I wish he would talk to Fritz and have no further statements on it.
Mr.Rankin. What did he say about that?
Mr.Wade. He said, "That is fine. I think that is so."
Mr.Rankin. Now, going back just a moment, you spoke out about a map earlier that you had been told they had as evidence, do you recall, of the parade route. Did you look at the map at the time?
Mr.Wade. I don't think I ever saw the map.
Mr.Rankin. You don't know what it contained in regard to the parade route?
Mr.Wade. I was told by Fritz that it had the parade route and it had an X where the assassination took place and it had an X out on Stemmons Freeway and an X at Inwood Road and Lemon, is all I know, a circle or some mark there.
Mr.Rankin. But you have never seen the map?
Mr.Wade. So far as I know, I have never seen the map. I don't know even where it was found, but I think it was found in his home, probably. But that is my recollection. But I don't even know that. I told Chief Curry this.
Then I walked out, and Tom Pettit of NBC said, "We are all confused on the law, where we are really on this thing."
Mr.Rankin. What did you say?
Mr.Wade. At that time I said, "Well, I will explain the procedure, Texas procedure in a criminal case," and I had about a 10-minute interview there as I was leaving the chief's office, dealing entirely with the procedure, I mean your examining trial and grand jury and jury trial. I mean as to what takes place. You see, they had all kinds of statements and other countries represented and they were all curious to ask legal questions, when bond would be set and when it would be done.
Mr.Rankin. Did you discuss the evidence at that time?
Mr.Wade. No, sir; I refused. You will find that I refused to answer questions. They all asked questions on it, but I would tell them that is evidence and that deals with evidence in the matter.
Mr.Rankin. Did you tell them why you wouldn't answer those questions?
Mr.Wade. I told them we had to try the case, here, and we would have to try the case and we wouldn't be able to get a jury if they knew all the evidence in the case.
You will find that in those interviews most, I think. I haven't seen them. As a matter of fact, didn't see them myself even. But I went home that day,and——
Mr.Dulles. That day is Saturday?
Mr.Wade. Saturday; yes, sir.
Mr.Rankin. About what time? Do you recall?
Mr.Wade. I guess I got home 2:30 probably. I must have eaten on the way home or somewhere.
Mr.Rankin. In the afternoon?
Mr.Wade. Yes, sir; and I know I was amazed as I walked through the television room there and saw Chief Curry with that gun. You see, at that time they had not identified the gun as his gun, but he was telling about the FBI report on it.
Mr.Rankin. Will you just describe what you saw there at that time?
Mr.Wade. Well, I know he was in a crowd, and it seems to me like he had the gun, but on second thought I am not even sure whether he had the gun, but he was tracing the history of how that the gun was bought under the name, under an assumed name from a mail-order house in Chicago and mailed there to Dallas, and that the serial number and everything that had been identified, that the FBI had done that, something else.
I believe they said they had a post office box here, a blind post office box that the recipients of that had identified as Oswald as the guy or something that received it.
In other words, he went directly over the evidence connecting him with the gun.
Mr.Rankin. You say there was a crowd there. Who was the crowd around him?
Mr.Wade. Newsmen. You see, I was at home. I was watching it on television.
Mr.Rankin. I see. Did you do anything about that, then? Did you call him and ask him to quit that?
Mr.Wade. No; I felt like nearly it was a hopeless case. I know now why it happened. That was the first piece of evidence he got his hands on before Fritz did.
Mr.Rankin. Will you explain what you mean by that?
Mr.Wade. Well, this went to the FBI and came to him rather than to Captain Fritz, and I feel in my own mind that this was something new, that he really had been receiving none of the original evidence, that it was coming through Fritz to him and so this went from him to Fritz, you know, and I think that is the reason he did it.
So I stayed home that afternoon. I was trying to think, it seems like I went back by the police station some time that night, late at night.
Mr.Rankin. This way of giving evidence to the press and all of the news media, is that standard practice in your area?
Mr.Wade. Yes; it is, unfortunately. I don't think it is good. We have just, even since this happened we have had a similar incident with the police giving all the evidence out or giving out an oral confession of a defendant that is not admissible in court. You know, oral admissions are not generally admissible in Texas. And they gave all the evidence out in it.
Mr.Rankin. Have you done anything about it, tried to stop it in any way?
Mr.Wade. Well, in this actually, in the same story they quoted me as saying, I mean the news quoted me as saying they shouldn't give the information out, that is the evidence, we have got to try the case, we will get a jury, it is improper to do this, or something to that effect. So far as taking it up with—I have mentioned many times that they shouldn't give out evidence, in talking to the police officers, I mean in there in training things, but it is something I have no control over whatever. It is a separate entity, the city of Dallas is, and I do a little fussing with the police, but by the same token it is not a situation where—I think it is one of your major problems that are going to have to be looked into not only here but it is a sidelight, I think, to your investigation to some extent, but I think you prejudice us, the state, more than you do the defense by giving out our testimony.
You may think that giving out will help you to convict him. I think it works the other way, your jurors that read, the good type of jurors, get an opinion one way or another from what they read, and you end up with poor jurors. If they haven't read or heard anything of the case—well, not generally the same type of juror.
The only thing I make a practice of saying is that I reviewed the evidence inthis case in which the State will ask the death penalty, which may be going too far, but I tell them we plan to ask the death penalty or plan to ask life or plan to ask maximum jail sentence or something of that kind.
Mr.Rankin. Did you say that at any time about the Oswald case?
Mr.Wade. Oh, yes, sir; I have said that about both Oswald and Ruby.
Mr.Rankin. When did you say it about the Oswald case?
Mr.Wade. I guess it was Friday night probably. I was asked what penalty we would ask for.
Mr.Rankin. When the police made these releases about the evidence, did they ever ask you whether they should make them?
Mr.Wade. No, sir; like I told you. I talked Saturday morning around between 11 and 12, some time. I told him there was entirely too much publicity on this thing, that with the pressure going to be on us to try it and there may not be a place in the United States you can try it with all the publicity you are getting. Chief Curry said he agreed with me, but, like I said about 2 hours later, I saw him releasing this testimony.
Mr.Rankin. Did you consult any State officials about how you should handle either the Oswald or the Ruby case?
Mr.Wade. I don't know. It seems like I talked to Waggoner Carr that night, but I don't remember.
Didn't we talk some time about it?
I don't know whether it was consulting about how to try it or anything. But I know I talked to Waggoner's office some time within 2 or 3 days, but I don't know whether it was before the Ruby assault or not. But he doesn'tactually——
Mr.Rankin. Does the Texas attorney general have any jurisdiction to tell you how to try such cases?
Mr.Wade. No sir; I think Waggoner will agree with that. They don't have any jurisdiction to try criminal cases other than antitrust, but I assume we would ask for their assistance if we wanted it. We don't generally, and I don't, the law doesn't contemplate that.
Mr.Rankin. Mr. Carr didn't try to tell you in any way how to handle either case?
Mr.Wade. Not that I know of.
Mr.Carr. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Dulles. May we proceed.
Mr.Rankin. Mr. Wade, will you give us the substance of what Mr. Carr said to you and what you said to him at that time?
Mr.Wade. All I remember—I don't actually remember or know what night it was I talked to him but I assume it was that night because he did mention that the rumor was out that we were getting ready to file a charge of Oswald being part of an international conspiracy, and I told him that that was not going to be done.
It was late at night and I believe thatis——
Mr.Dulles. It must have been Saturday night, wasn't it?
Mr.Wade. No; that was Friday night.
Mr.Dulles. Friday night.
Mr.Wade. And I told him, and then I got a call, since this happened, I talked to Jim Bowie, my first assistant who had talked to, somebody had called him, my phone had been busy and Barefoot Sanders, I talked to him, and he—they all told that they were concerned about their having received calls from Washington and somewhere else, and I told them that there wasn't any such crime in Texas, I didn't know where it came from, and that is what prompted me to go down and take the complaint, otherwise I never would have gone down to the police station.
Mr.Rankin. Did you say anything about whether you had evidence to support such a complaint of a conspiracy?
Mr.Wade. Mr. Rankin, I don't know what evidence we have, we had at that time and actually don't know yet what all the evidence was.
I never did see, I was told they had a lot of Fair Play for Cuba propaganda or correspondence on Oswald, and letters from the Communist Party, and it was probably exaggerated to me.
I was told this. I have never seen any of that personally. Never saw any of it that night. But whether he was a Communist or whether he wasn't, had nothing to do with solving the problem at hand, the filing of the charge.
I also was very, I wasn't sure I was going to take a complaint, and a justice of the peace will take a complaint lots of times because he doesn't have to try it. I knew I would have to try this case and that prompted me to go down and see what kind of evidence they had.
Mr.Rankin. Will you tell us what you mean by taking a complaint under your law.
Mr.Wade. Well, a complaint is a blank form that you fill out in the name, by the authority of the State of Texas, and so forth, which I don't have here, but it charged, it charges a certain person with committing a crime, and it is filed in the justice court.
The law permits the district attorney or any of his assistants to swear the witness to the charge. The only place we sign it is over on the left, I believe sworn to and subscribed to before me, this is the blank day of blank, Henry Wade, district attorney.
Over on the right the complainant signs the complaint. We mean when we say take or accept a complaint is when we swear the witness and we draw it up ourselves and word it and take it.
Mr.Rankin. Is that what you did in the Oswald-Ruby case?
Mr.Wade. Yes, sir; we did that. Now, as a practical matter that is not really filing the complaints. The complaint is not really legally filed until a justice of the peace takes it and records it on his docket.
Now, it goes to the justice of the peace court to clear the whole thing up and his purpose, he has—the law says you shall take him immediately before a magistrate, which is the justice of the peace.
The courts have held that it is not necessary in Texas, but there is a statute that says that, and then he—his purpose is to hold an examining trial to see whether it is a bailable case or not.
Then he sends it to the grand jury and the grand jury hears it and returns an indictment or a no bill and then it is in a certain court set with a docket number and then it is ours to try.
Does that answer some of the questions?
(At this point, Senator Cooper returned to the hearing room.)
Mr.Rankin. Which route did you follow in regard to the Oswald case?
Mr.Wade. The same route. I accepted the complaint on him in the homicide department, and gave it to David Johnston, the justice of the peace who was there incidentally, or there in the homicide department.
But I didn't actually type it up. I don't know who actually typed it up, somebody typed it up, but we file about a 100 a year, murders "did with malice aforethought."
It was a straight murder indictment, murder with malice charge, and that was the procedure we followed in the Oswald case.
Mr.Rankin. Why did you not include in that complaint a charge of an international conspiracy?
Mr.Wade. Well, it is just like I said, it is surplusage to begin with. You don't need it. If you allege it you have to prove it. The U.S. attorney and the attorney general had called me and said that if it wasn't absolutely necessary they thought it shouldn't be done, and—
Mr.Rankin. By the "attorney general" who do you mean?
Mr.Wade. Mr. Carr. And actually it is never done. I mean, you see that got clear, apparently you had the press writing that up, radio or whoever was saying that was—had no idea about what murder was.
Now, to write in there, assume he was, assume we could prove he was, a Communist, which I wasn't able to prove because all I heard was he had some literature there on him and had been in Russia, but assume I knew he was a Communist, can I prove it, I still wouldn't have alleged it because it is subject actually to be removed from the indictment because it is surplusage, you know, and all a murder indictment, the only thing that a murder indictment varies on is the method of what they used, did kill John Doe by shooting him with a gun or by stabbing him or by drowning him in water or how, the mannerand means is the only thing that varies in a murder indictment, all other wordage is the same. Does that clear that up?
(Discussion off the record.)
SenatorCooper. As I understand it, under Texas law there is no crime which is denominated under the term "international conspiracy."
Mr.Wade. No, sir.
SenatorCooper. I assume that conspiracy is a crime in Texas, isn't it, conspiracy to commit a crime?
Mr.Wade. Conspiracy is a crime. It is a joining together of a group, your conspiracy where they enter into an agreement to commit a crime, and that is usually the one is indicted as a conspirator, the one who doesn't participate in the crime.
SenatorCooper. My point is, though, that conspiracy is a crime under Texas law?
Mr.Wade. Yes, sir; conspiracy to commit murder is a crime.
SenatorCooper. Yes.
Let me ask this question.
Mr.Wade. Yes, sir.
SenatorCooper. As I understand it then, one of the reasons that no warrant of indictment was rendered upon, touching upon an international conspiracy is that there is just no such crime in Texas as an international conspiracy?
Mr.Wade. There was no such crime. If it was any such crime it would be a Federal rather than a State offense. If there is such crime as being a part of an international conspiracy it would deal with treason rather than murder, I would think.
But there is no such thing as being a part of any organization that makes that it is a crime to commit murder. This was a straight murder charge.
If we would have had four or five co-conspirators who conspired with him, planned the thing and could prove it we would have. That would have been a conspiracy to, conspiracy to commit murder.
SenatorCooper. But conspiracy is not essential to the crime, to describe the person accused as belonging to any organization?
Mr.Wade. No, sir; it is not necessary and it is entirely what they call surplusage.
SenatorCooper. Now the last question, was there any evidence brought to you or any evidence of which you had knowledge upon which you could base an indictment or a warrant for conspiracy to commit murder in this case?
Mr.Wade. No, sir; you mean parties other than Oswald?
SenatorCooper. Yes.
Mr.Wade. No. I might say on that score, to clear that up, I haven't seen any evidence along that line. I haven't even seen any of the correspondence that they had, allegedly had with the Communist Party here in New York or the Fair Play for Cuba, I haven't seen his little black book where he is supposed to have had the Russian Embassy's telephone numbers in it which I am sure you all have gone into it.
I never did see the book, none of that.
Of course, I have been told by a lot of people and undoubtedly a lot of it was exaggerated that he was a Communist, and you have had people say he was a Communist who might say I was a Communist, you know, if they didn't agree with me on something, so I have absolutely no evidence that he was a Communist of my own knowledge, I have heard a lot, of course.
Mr.Dulles. What you are saying in this last answer relates to the present time, not only the way your knowledgehas——
Mr.Wade. At that time and up to the present.
Mr.Dulles. Rather than the day of assassination.
Mr.Wade. I have no evidence myself now that he was a Communist, or ever was a Communist, and I never did see what evidence that they had on him there gathered on him. I never saw any of the physical evidence in the Oswald case other than one or two statements, and I think I saw the gun while they were taking it out of there bringing it to Washington, because I told them at that stage, they didn't want to take it out, didn't want to let the FBI have it and Itold them I thought they ought to let them bring it on up here that night and get it back the next night.
There was arguing over that. I am getting off, rambling around, but their argument over that was they were still trying to identify the gun through a pawn broker or something like that and the police wanted to keep it but I said, "Let it go up there and they said they would have it back the next afternoon."
Mr.Rankin. Have you ever had any evidence that Oswald was involved with anyone else in actually shooting the President?
Mr.Wade. Well, I will answer that the same way. I have absolutely no evidence myself.
Now, of course, I might have some type of opinion or some connection with reference to the Fair Play for Cuba and these letters that they told me about. If that was so there may have been some connection or may not, but I have no evidence myself on it.
Mr.Rankin.Do you have any evidence as to whether Jack Ruby was involved with anyone else in the killing of Oswald?
Mr.Wade. No, sir; I have no evidence on that. We have some and I think you have them all, some 8 or 10 witnesses who have said they had seen Ruby and Oswald together at various times.
Some of them were, I know one of them during the trial was a lawyer there in Dallas, which I presume you all got his four-page statement, said he heard them discussing killing Connally a week before then, came out to my house and that had been sent to the FBI, and that was during the trial, and I gave him a lie detector which showed that he didn't have, this was a fanciful thing.
That, I can't think of his name, some of you all may know it, but he is a lawyer there in Dallas.
Mr.Rankin. You found that was not anything you could rely on.
Mr.Wade. I didn't use him as a witness and after giving him the polygraph I was satisfied that he was imagining it. I think he was sincere, I don't think he was trying—I don't think he was trying to be a hero or anything. I think he really thought about it so much I think he thought that it happened, but the polygraph indicated otherwise.
Mr.Dulles. Did you have any other evidence than the polygraph on this point that he was not telling the truth or that this was a fiction?
Mr.Wade. No, but I didn't—but I did see a report where the FBI interviewed the girl that was allegedly with him in Ruby's place in October, and she didn't corroborate all of it. I think she did say he was in there but I am not even sure of that. I didn't interview her but I just read a report on it.
I read where they checked with the Department of Public Safety and they did not, were not able to—he said he reported all this to the Department of Public Safety, and I don't think they found any record of him reporting it. It is very difficult to get him to come in to see me. He didn't just walk in, this went on for a month, I kept hearing that there was a certain person knew about it and I kept telling him to come on and talk to me and he finally came out to my house late one night.
The reason I think he actually must have thought it was so, but—I wasn't too interested in that theory of the case on this thing because I had a theory on this Ruby case from the start because I, even before you are going to get into some of these officers' testimony in a minute, but when this happened I was going home from church, and my own mind I said I believe that was Jack Ruby who shot him because from that Friday night, and from my theory has been from that Friday night, when he saw him there he made up his mind to kill him if he got a chance and I have had that—I didn't even know about Dean's testimony which you are going to hear today, I didn't know about his testimony until the day before I put him on the stand because I had not been preparing the evidence, I had been picking a jury for 2 weeks but that was my theory from the start.
We had a waitress that I think you are all familiar with that was out at B&B Cafe at 3 a.m. on the 22d who said she served Ruby and Oswald there.
B&B Cafe on Oak Lane, I know you have got that, I have seen it somewhere.
I don't think she was ever given a polygraph test. You have about four homosexuals, I think that is probably the word, that have said they have seen themtogether places. There was some indication that Ruby was either bisexual or homosexual, but at least, I think they testified to that in the trial, I think by mistake.
Belli asked the man, meant to ask him another word and says, he meant to say homicidal tendencies and he said homosexual tendencies and his one witness said yes, sir.
That is in the record which you will get of the trial, I guess.
Mr.Rankin. I understood you to say when you came home from church, after the killing of Oswald that you thought it was Ruby before you had heard that it was Ruby.
Mr.Wade. You see, they announced Dallas businessman kills him.
Mr.Rankin. Yes.
Mr.Wade. I took my family, I was in church with the family. I took them on home and on the way down there they kept—they didn't say who it was but this ran through my mind, a businessman.
I said that must be Jack Ruby the way he looked. He looked kind of wild to me down there Friday night the way he was running everywhere, you know, and I said to myself that must be him. I didn't tell my wife. You can't prove that. It is one of those things, that was my theory that he was likely the one. I couldn't, you know, out of a million people I couldn't say he was the one but when they announced his name I will say it didn't surprise me.
Mr.Rankin. Mr. Chairman, what do you want to do about Mr. Carr?
SenatorCooper. Mr. Wade, can you name to the Commission the names of the persons who told you or who stated in your presence that they had seen Lee Oswald and Jack Ruby together?
Mr.Wade.Well——
SenatorCooper. Start out with the first one, his name.
Mr.Wade. If anybody would mention the lawyer's name, I know him—he has run for the legislature a number of times.
SenatorCooper. A lawyer who lives in Dallas?
Mr.Wade. A lawyer in Dallas, and he has—we have, he made a four-page affidavit about this thing, and mailed it to J. Edgar Hoover.
SenatorCooper. You can supply his name.
Mr.Wade. We can supply his name and I would supply you with copies of his affidavit which I think you have.
Don't you have it, isn't that up here?
SenatorCooper. Without going into that in a moment, you can refresh your recollection and supply to the Commission the name of this lawyer.
Mr.Wade. Yes, sir.
SenatorCooper. Had he talked to you?
Mr.Wade. Yes, sir.
SenatorCooper. What did he say? Did he make a written statement to you or just talk to you?
Mr.Wade. He handed me a written statement. He said, "The day after this happened I made this," it was a copy of a written statement, he said, "I sent this to J. Edgar Hoover in Washington." I am talking to him, we will say, the 10th to the 20th of February, the first time I talked with him.
He said, "I sent this to the FBI, to J. Edgar Hoover, special delivery air mail within a day or two after the assassination," and he left that and as far as I know I have got a copy of that, he left it with me.
He talked to me at length there at my house, just us, and I would say at 11 o'clock at night, it was on a Sunday night I know, but what Sunday night I don't know. It was on a Sunday night in February. I read that statement over. It is a rather startling thing. It didn't ring true to me. It all deals with a conversation between Oswald and Ruby about killing John Connally, the Governor of Texas, over, he says, they can't get syndicated crime in Texas without they kill the Governor.
I know enough about the situation, the Governor has practically nothing to do with syndicated crime. It has to be on a local, your district attorney and your police are the ones on the firing line on that, and they discussed at length killing him, how much they are going to pay him, "He wants five thousand, I believe or half of it now, and half of it when it is done."
Don't you have this memorandum?
Mr.Rankin. Yes.
Mr.Wade. There is no use of me trying to give it to you.
SenatorCooper. I was just personally trying to get your recollection about it.
Mr.Wade. He told me this is what happened, and I said, "I can't put you on the stand without I am satisfied you are telling the truth because," I said, "We have got a good case here, and if they prove we are putting a lying witness on the stand, we might hurt us," and I said, "The only thing I know to do I won't put you on the stand but to take a polygraph to see if you are telling the truth or not."
He said, "I would be glad to." And I set it up and I later ran into him in the lawyers' club there and he handed me another memorandum which amplified on the other one, which all have been furnished to the attorney general or if we didn't lose it in the shuffle.
This was during the trial actually, and then when the man called me he took a lie detector. There was no truth in it.
That he was in the place. He was in the place, in Ruby's Carousel, but that none of this conversation took place. He said he was in one booth and Ruby was in another booth.
SenatorCooper. Did anyone else tell you that they had seen Ruby and Oswald talking together?
Mr.Wade. No one else personally has told me this.
SenatorCooper. You mentioned a girl.
Mr.Wade. No, I never talked to her but we had the Dallas Police take an affidavit from her and so did the FBI of that which is in all your files. What her name is, I just know it is a waitress out at the B&B Cafe. She lived in Mesquite, Tex., and some of my people interviewed her and she told them the same thing she told the FBI.
The other information was in your FBI reports of where people or somebody who claimed he had seen them together in a YMCA, if I recall correctly, and another one in a store.
The report indicated these, all these people were homosexuals as I believe, or there was an indication of that.
I have an interview, in answering your question, in Lynn's first, but this is the only one I have talked personally about it. But the rest of them I got from reading the FBI and police files.
SenatorCooper. Lynn?
Mr.Wade. I believe that is his first name, and he is a lawyer there.
SenatorCooper. He is the lawyer?
Mr.Wade. That is the lawyer I am thinking about, I am trying to think of his name while I sit here.
SenatorCooper. Have you ever talked to anyone or has anyone ever talked to you or in your presence about Oswald and named any other person, other than Ruby, who they claimed were connected with Oswald in the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr.Wade. Senator, I don't believe anyone has talked to me. I have received, I guess 5,000 letters about this thing from all over the country, which I have down there. I remember somebody wrote me from West Virginia and said that in West Virginia that Oswald was in a used car business and Ruby was across the street from him.
Well, I furnished this information to the investigative agencies but as far as personally, I don't know of any. I have had a lot of letters that said they were connected but not based on anything.
SenatorCooper. But leave Ruby out now for a moment, did anyone ever tell you that Oswald was connected with persons other than Ruby in the assassination of President Kennedy?
Have you heard the names of any other persons who it is claimed had something to do with the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr.Wade. I don't know of any names. Of course, like I said there was the head of the Fair Play for Cuba, whatever his name was, was mentioned. Everything I know on that score was from the police. When I went up there Friday night and again I believe it was Saturday night or Sunday, they toldme that they just talked like he was the biggest Communist, they had all kinds of evidence that he was a Communist, and that he was working with other people.
I believe Captain Fritz told me once that he showed at the time that Oswald bristled most was when they would talk about Castro. Apparently he was more friendly to Castro than he was for instance to Khrushchev, I am using those in broad terms.
SenatorCooper. Of course, once Oswald was killed, then your duties were connected with the prosecution of Ruby.
Mr.Wade. Yes, sir.
SenatorCooper. And there wasn't any occasion for you then to searchout——
Mr.Wade. I had this, Senator.
SenatorCooper. Other persons.
Mr.Wade. I had this, Senator, I had this, when he was killed and they tried to give me the files. I told them no, to give them to the FBI because we couldn't try him, and I went to work on Ruby and actually wouldn't know it.
From what I picked up it appeared to me there was no question that he received his inspiration on this and maybe other help from somewhere.
SenatorCooper. That is what I am driving at here. You know there have been statements made that other persons could have been connected with Oswald in the assassination of President Kennedy.
Do you have any facts to give the Commission which would bear upon that question that any person other than Oswald was in any way connected with the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr.Wade. I have no facts that I can give you on it. It is one of these things, and the reason I gave you what my opinion on the thing was, I have read what the U.S. World News and Report said the Commission is going to say, and also this deal out in Japan, you know, where they said that he was not instantaneous, impulsive, I believe, killer of the President, which sounded silly to me.
I mean he planned the thing. He practiced shooting, and he had his inspiration from somebody else. Whether he had a—was working with someone, I don't know. I never did know, it was rumored all over town that they had an airplane there to carry him out of town. I am sure you all have checked into that but I never know whether they did or not.
There seemed to have been something misfired in the thing if there was anybody tried to get it. I don't think there was anybody with him in the shooting but what you are getting at is if there was anyone back of him.
I always felt that the minimum was an inspiration from some cause, and the maximum was actual pay, but like you asked for evidence, I don't have any.
SenatorCooper. Did you ever hear about any evidence that there was an airplane stationed any place there?
Mr.Wade. They ran it in the newspapers that an airplane was supposedly to pick him up but nobody ever found the airplane, so far as I know. You have had every kind of rumor, this has been a thing that has been, that the press has been most inaccurate in a lot of things they have reported, and it is because of the pressure from their offices to get a Ruby story.
We have reporters down there coming down and said, "My office said to write something on Ruby today, what are we going to write."
And it has been so very irresponsible.
Like I said, I have no evidence and the only thing where I get my impression is reading and hearing people talking but I haven't actually figured it wasn't any of my business on Oswald, that I had a problem, a big one of trying Ruby and I have concentrated all of my efforts on that and when we had anybody of this nature we would refer them to the FBI or some other agency.
SenatorCooper. Thank you.
Mr.Dulles. You referred, Mr. Wade, to some testimony or some evidence that Oswald was at one time in the Carousel when Ruby was there.
Was that solely from this lawyer whose testimony you have mentioned?
Mr.Wade. The only one of my personal knowledge that I talked with was from the lawyer. He told me he was there with a certain girl, a stripper, andRuby and Oswald were in an adjoining booth. There is lots of other people, I think your master of ceremonies, they had him on television and said he had seen them there but later on said he hadn't when they got to interviewing him. But my own personal knowledge that you are all interested in was that one man who told me that.
Mr.Rankin. Was there anyone either from the State or Federal Government that urged you not to state a crime of international conspiracy if you found one was present?
Mr.Wade. No; not in that light. It is like I mentioned to you what Mr. Carr and Mr. Sanders both inquired, said they had heard on the radio about this or talked with someone in Washington about it, and I told them right off that whether it was so or not doesn't make any difference. It wouldn't be alleged. I mean if I had known he was a Communist I wouldn't have alleged it. I mean, suppose I knew he was a Communist, and signed a statement he was a Communist. That was a time when the press blew up when they had nothing else to talk about at the time, actually.
The answer to your question is "No."
Mr.Rankin. Was any statement made by you as to whether or not there was any international conspiracy, conspiracy with Oswald about the assassination?
Mr.Wade. No, sir; I don't think there was. I think in one of those interviews you will find that I said they found some literature or something from the Fair Play for Cuba at his home, something to that effect. If I did anything, that was all that was said, in one of those interviews.
Mr.Rankin. Did anybody ask you to say anything one way or another about that?
Mr.Wade. If they did I don't remember it. I am sure they asked that, but I am talking about, I mean in all these interviews, that was the thing where they were trying to prove a connection or something, you know, and I told them I knew nothing about it.
Mr.Rankin. But no officials asked you to say anything about it publicly or otherwise?
Mr.Wade. No, sir; not that I recall.
Mr.Rankin. Did anybody ask you at any time not to say that a foreign government was involved if you found it was or anything about that?
Mr.Wade. Your FBI man may have. I don't know. I talked to him two or three times. I wish I could think of his name because I don't think I ever met him. He was an inspector out of Washington.
Mr.Dulles. He is not our FBI man, he is the FBI. We are an independent commission.
Mr.Wade. I see. But he had talked with me something, I think his conversation, as I recall, largely dealt with the giving out of information. He was concerned about it and so was I, and where we had the longest conversation was, I will run through Sunday, and get me up to it real fast because I talked to him Sunday night. We haven't covered one of my television interviews.
After I went down to the police station and I will take this real fast if it is all right with you all, they told me that Oswald had been shot and I was there in the Chief's office when he died, when Oswald died and the Chief says I have got to go out here and announce it.
So as he went out for a press conference, I went down the back door, went home and went to bed because I was tired and disappointed actually because we got even interested in trying Oswald, and I didn't mean to have anything else further to say.
I woke up about 5 o'clock and a national commentator was giving the Dallas police hell, me hell, and just about everybody hell, and saying that I had said that the case, there would be nothing further on the case, it would be closed, in which I had never even had a television interview, I don't know where they got it.
Somebody might have said that. I don't know but it wasn't me because I hadn't talked to anybody.
And then I went out to dinner and got to thinking, I said, well now, the Dallas police did have a breakdown in security here, and they are taking a beating andI am taking a beating, but they did have the right man according to my thinking, so I went down to the police station and got all the brass in there but Chief Curry and I said this stuff, people are saying on there you had the wrong man and you all were the one who killed him or let him out here to have him killed intentionally, I said somebody ought to go out in television and lay out the evidence that you had on Oswald, and tell them everything.
It had been most of it laid out but not in chronological order.
Mr.Rankin. When was this now?
Mr.Wade. This was 8 o'clock roughly on the 24th. Sunday night. I sat down with Captain Fritz and took a pencil and pad and listed about seven pieces of evidence from my own knowledge and I was going to write it down. They got hold of Chief Curry and he said no, that he had told this inspector of the FBI that there would be nothing further said about it.
I asked Chief Batchelor and Lumpkin, they were all there, I said you all are the ones who know something about it, I said if you have at least got the right man in my opinion the American people ought to know.
This is evidence you can't use actually, because he is dead. You can't try him. And the upshot of that was the police wouldn't say a word and refused actually to furnish me any more of the details on this.
I mean what the seven points. I went on out there in from front of the cameras and ran them through those points. Actually my purpose in it was, good or bad was, because the Dallas police were taking a beating because they had solved the crime and had good evidence and I told them it was good but I did leave out some things and I was a little inaccurate in one or two things but it was because of the communications with the police.
I didn't have the map, incidentally. I wanted the map at that time but forgot all about it, and I ran through just what I knew, which probably was worse than nothing.
It probably would have been better off without giving anything, because we didn't give what all we had.
Mr.Dulles. Do you remember the elements of inaccuracy that got into this statement of yours?
Mr.Wade. I think I told them about the palmprint on the bottom of the gun, that Lane has made a great issue of and I still think I was right on it but he has made an issue. I think Oswald snapped the pistol over there in the jail or at least in the theater where they arrested him. There was a question of whether the gun had been snapped or not and I was told it was, you all may have seen the gun; I never have seen the gun. You had—I might have at that stage said what bullets are supposed to hit whom. That might have been somewhat inaccurate then but that is all I can think of.
I don't think there is any basic thing. But my purpose in that, and I know the minute I got off that television, inspection called me and said please say nothing further about this case.
Well, you see, at thatstage——
Mr.Dulles. Who was it that called you?
Mr.Wade. The inspector at FBI called me in the police station. He was the one the police had talked to. He was the man from Dallas down there. It wasn't Shanklin, Shanklin was in charge of the office.
But I told him what my purpose was but apparently someone told him. I gathered since he had delivered a message, apparently someone had told him to have me quit talking about it. But my purpose on that was, I never did think that the people or the television were giving the right facts on the thing and they were making believe that probably they didn't have the right one, that the Dallas police had him in there to kill him, they even had commentators saying practically that, don't you know.
So, I did that entirely—not anything for me. You may think I wanted to be on television. I didn't care a thing about being because I don't run for office in New York and Washington and other places, but I thought the police needed, because their morale was awfully low and they were at fault in Ruby killing him.
There was undoubtedly a breakdown on security there in the basement.
Mr.Rankin. On the seven points were any of them that were new that hadn't already been told to the public?
Mr.Wade. To tell you the truth, I don't know. I think there were some of them that hadn't been but I think most of them had. But I couldn't see at this stage the evidence on this thing, nobody, the situation where you had an assassination, and a dead person and another case pending, and it was against my interest actually, to trying Ruby, it would be a whole lot better trying Ruby if he killed the wrong man than if he killed the assassin of the President, but I was trying to establish that this was the assassin of the President.
And I didn't give all the evidence, and I don't know whether there was anything new or not because I didn't see much of television during all this time. I don't actually know everything that was given out, and there was so much in the papers that I didn't have time to read them, so I didn't know for sure what all the police had given out.
SenatorCooper. Substantially then, you were laying out to the public the facts which had led you to issue a warrant for Oswald as the killer of President Kennedy?
Mr.Wade. That was the purpose of that interview.
You also have to—I don't know where you gentlemen were, but you have to get a picture of what was going on. You had, of course, there in Dallas, you had threats on people's lives everywhere.
As a matter of fact, it ran over the radio that I had been assassinated, for 2 hours, on Monday morning. I wasn't listening to the radio. My wife called me up—called me up and I denied it. [Laughter.]