Mrs.Oswald. No.
SenatorRussell. You knew where he kept his money in your home, did you not?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He had a black wallet, but I never ventured into it.
SenatorRussell. Did he not tell you to take some of the money out of the wallet at one time and buy some clothes for the children and yourself?
Mrs.Oswald. No.
Mr.Gopadze. Pardon—you don't understand the question?**
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes; he did. It was the morning before the tragedy.
SenatorRussell. Before the assassination of the President?
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
SenatorRussell. Did he ever talk to you about the result of his visit to Mexico?
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
SenatorRussell. Did he say his efforts were all a failure there, that he got any assistance that he was seeking?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He told me that he visited the Cuban Embassy and the Soviet Embassy and that they have the same bureaucracy in the Cuban Embassy that they have in the Soviet Embassy and that he obtained no results.
SenatorRussell. Did you have less money in the United States than you had in Russia when you were married over there?
*Mrs.Oswald. We had more money in the United States than we did in the Soviet Union, but here we have to pay $65 a month rent from $200 earned, and we didn't have to do that in the Soviet Union. Here the house rent amounted to 30 percent of total wages earned, while in the Soviet Union we paid 10 percent of the wages earned. Then, all the medical expenses, medical assistance—expenses are paid there. However, Lee didn't spend much money on medical expenses here because he found ways to get the expenses free; the services free.
SenatorRussell. You have testified, I believe, that Lee didn't use his rifle much, the one he had in the Soviet Union. Did he ever discuss shooting anyone in the Soviet Union like he did in shooting Nixon and Walker here in this country?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No; not in the Soviet Union.
SenatorRussell. You haven't then heard from anyone except one letter from your aunt, since you left Russia?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No; I received letters from my girl friend.
SenatorRussell. Oh, how many letters from your girl friend?
Mrs.Oswald. Just from one—a Christmas card—I don't remember how many, probably not more than four or five.
*But only one letter from the aunt.
*Mrs.Oswald. We received letters from Lee's friends written to both of us—several letters.
SenatorRussell. Written to you?
Mrs.Oswald. Written to Lee and to me.
SenatorRussell. I see, but it's strange about your family that you didn't hear from them when you had written to them?*
*Mrs.Oswald. It is strange and it's hurtful.
SenatorRussell. Mrs. Oswald, I believe you testified that Lee didn't ever discuss political matters with you very much? *
*Mrs.Oswald. He discussed politics with me very little.
SenatorRussell. And that when he was discussing political matters with Mr. Paine and Mr. De Mohrenschildt and others, that you didn't pay any attention, that they didn't address any of it to you, that they discussed it between themselves?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No; I did not participate in those conversations.
SenatorRussell. And that he didn't discuss a great many things about his work and things of that kind with you?*
*Mrs.Oswald. The only time he discussed his work with me was when he worked for a printing company. He told me that he liked that job.
SenatorRussell. Why do you suppose he told you about the fact that he was going to shoot Mr. Nixon and had shot at General Walker?*
*Mrs.Oswald. As regards General Walker, he came home late. He left me a note and so that is the reason why he discussed the Walker affair with me.
*Now, in regard to Mr. Nixon, he got dressed up in his suit and he put a gun in his belt.
SenatorRussell. You testified in his belt—I was going to ask about that, because that was a very unusual place to carry a gun. Usually, he would carry it in his coat. Did you ever see him have a gun in his belt before?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No; I would have noticed it if he did.
SenatorRussell. You wouldn't have noticed it?
*Mrs.Oswald. I would have noticed it if he did.
SenatorRussell. I see—you would have noticed it.
*Mrs.Oswald. And so—I have never seen him before with the pistol.
SenatorRussell. He didn't state to you that he talked to any person in Mexico other than at the Russian Embassy and the Cuban Embassy?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No. The only persons he mentioned were the Cuban Embassy and the Soviet Embassy in Mexico.
SenatorRussell. Now, going back to your personal relations, Mrs. Oswald, with Lee. Do you think he wanted to send you back to Russia just to get rid of you?*
*Mrs.Oswald. This is the question that I am puzzled about and I am wondering about it myself, whether he wanted to get rid of me.
SenatorRussell. Do you think he was really devoted to the children or was he just putting on a show about liking the children?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes; he loved the children.
*I believe he loved the children, but at times—one side of his life was such that I wondered whether he did or not. Some of the things that he did certainly were not good for his children—some of the acts he was engaged in.
SenatorRussell. He knew you would take the children back to Russia with you, if you wanted, did he not?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Of course I would have taken the children with me to the Soviet Union.
SenatorRussell. It seems to me that I recall once or twice in this testimony when you had had some little domestic trouble, as all married couples have, that he had cried, which is most unusual for a man in this country—men don't cry very often, and do you think that he cried despite the fact that he wasn't very devoted to you and loved you a great deal?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. The fact that he cried, and on one occasion he begged me to come back to him—he stood on his knees and begged me to come back to him—whether that meant that he loved me—perhaps he did. On the other hand, the acts that he committed showed to me that he didn't particularly care for me.
SenatorRussell. You think then that his acts that he committed outside your domestic life within the family, within the realm of the family, was an indication that he did not love you?*
*Mrs.Oswald. The fact that he made attempts on the lives of other peopleshowed to me that he did not treasure his family life and his children, also the fact that he beat me and wanted to send me to the Soviet Union.
SenatorRussell. And you think that the fact that he promised you after the Walker incident that he would never do anything like that again but did, is an indication that he didn't love you?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Logically—yes. That shows to me that he did not love me. At times he cried, and did all sorts of helpful things around the house. At other times he was mean. Frankly, I am lost as to what to think about him.
And I did not have any choice, because he was the only person that I knew and I could count on—the only person in the United States.
SenatorRussell. Did he beat you very often, Mrs. Oswald, strike you hard blows with his fists? Did he hit you with his fists?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. When he beat me, sometimes he would beat me hard and sometimes not too hard. Sometimes he would leave a black eye and sometimes he wouldn't, depending on which part of me he would strike me. When we lived in New Orleans he never beat me up.
SenatorRussell. Did he ever beat you in Russia before you came to this country?*
Mrs.Oswald. No.
SenatorRussell. Had you ever heard of any husband striking his wife in Russia?*
*Mrs.Oswald. It seems that beating of wives by the Russian husbands is a rather common thing in the Soviet Union and that is why I was afraid to marry a Russian.
SenatorRussell. I see. Do they beat them with anything other than their hands?
There was a law in my State at one time that a man could whip his wife as long as he didn't use a switch that was larger than his thumb. That law has been repealed.
But, did they ever whip their wives with anything other than their hands in Russia?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not know. I was not interested in what manner they beat their wives.
SenatorRussell. That's difficult for me to believe—that a very charming and attractive girl who was being courted by a number of men, I would have thought you would have been greatly interested in all the aspects of matrimony?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. How would I know?
SenatorRussell. How would you know it—well, by general conversation. Don't people talk about those things all over the world—in Russia and everywhere else?
Mrs.Oswald. That's different there.
SenatorRussell. People are very much the same, aren't they, all over the world? If a man in the neighborhood gets drunk and beats and abuses his wife and children, isn't that discussed by all the people in the block—in that area?
Mrs.Oswald. **Sometimes during a life of 20 years with a husband, everything will be all right, and then some occasion will arise or something will happen that the wife will learn about what kind of person he is.
*I know of one family in the Soviet Union in Minsk, where a husband was married to a woman 17 years, and he just went to another woman.
For 1 year.
*For 1 year—then he came back to the first one full of shame and repentance and he cried and she took him back in. He lived with her for 3 days and then left her again. He was excluded from the party.
SenatorRussell. Excommunicated from the party?
Mrs.Oswald. **Expelled from the party.
*But he took all the possessions of their common property when he left.
SenatorRussell. I'm taking too much time, and I will hurry along. Did he ever beat you badly enough, Mrs. Oswald, for you to require the services of a doctor, a physician?*
Mrs.Oswald. No.
SenatorRussell. Did he ever strike you during your pregnancy, when you were pregnant?*
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
Mr.Gopadze. She said, "I think." She said, "I think."
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes; he did strike me.
SenatorRussell. What reason did he give for striking you, usually?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Well, the reasons were if—they were very petty—I can't even remember what the reasons were after this quarrel was over. Sometimes he would tell me to shut up, and I don't take that from him.
**I'm not a very quiet woman myself.
SenatorRussell. "I'm not—" what?
**Mrs.Oswald. I'm not a quiet woman myself and sometimes it gets on your nerves and you'll just tell him he's an idiot and he will become more angry with you.
*Enraged. When I would call him an idiot, he would say, "Well, I'll show you what kind of an idiot I am," so he would beat me up.
SenatorRussell. Did you ever strike him?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I would give him some in return.
SenatorRussell. You would give him some in return.
As I recall your testimony, when he told you about the Nixon incident, you testified that you held him in the bathroom by physical strength for some 4 or 5 minutes, so you should have been able to hold your own pretty well with him if you could do that?* **
Mrs.Oswald. Probably not 5 minutes, but a long time for him.
*Sometimes one can gather all of his strength in a moment like that. I am not a strong person, but sometimes under stress and strain perhaps I am stronger than I ordinarily am.
SenatorRussell. Did you ever strike him with anything other than your hand?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Well, I think at one time I told him that if he would beat me again, I will hurl a radio, a transistor radio, and when he did strike me, I threw the radio at him.
SenatorRussell. You missed him?
*Mrs.Oswald. No—it broke. I missed him.
SenatorRussell. Yes, she missed him.
*Mrs.Oswald. I tried not to hit him.
SenatorRussell. Now, going back a moment or two to your uncle, whom you lived with and to whom I understand you are quite devoted—did he try to keep you from coming to the United States very vigorously?
*Mrs.Oswald. My uncle was against my going to America, but he never imposed his will or his opinion on me.
SenatorRussell. Did he or any other members of your family ever tell you why you had such little difficulty in getting your passport approved?*
*Mrs.Oswald. During the pendency of receiving this exit visa, we never discussed the question, my uncle and my aunt, but when we received it, the exit visa and it was granted to us so quickly, they were very much surprised.
Mr.Gopadze. Now, Marina, I'm sorry. I would like to make a correction to that point.
Mr.Gregory. All right.
Mr.Gopadze. That during the time they were expecting a visa to depart the Soviet Union, the relatives didn't express too much about it—because they didn't [think] they would depart, and when they did receive it, they were very muchsurprised——
Mr.Gregory. Correct.
Mr.Gopadze. With the expediency of the visa. Therefore, they didn't bother asking any questions or into their affairs concerning the departure. The last time they visited their aunt and uncle, they say, "Oh, of all places, you're going to the United States."
SenatorRussell. Lee never did make much more than $225 a month, in that area, did he, and he was unemployed almost as much as he was employed?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
SenatorRussell. How did he manage to pay the State Department the money he had borrowed from them and to pay his brother Robert under those circumstances?*
Mrs.Oswald. He paid those debts out of his earnings. The first few weeks when we came to the United States, we lived with his mother, and that gave us the opportunity to pay the debts.
SenatorRussell. Well, you only lived with Mrs. Oswald a matter of 3 or 4 weeks, didn't you?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes; but he was earning money during that time.
SenatorRussell. I understand, but he was not earning more than $200 a month, was he, and he paid four or five or six—what was it, Mr. Rankin?
Mr.Rankin. It was over $400.
SenatorRussell. Over $450 or more to the State Department and some amount to his brother Robert.
Mrs.Oswald. Around $100.
*It was $100.
It was probably $100.
SenatorRussell. That's $550, and a person that's earning $200 a month part of the time, and having to support a family, that's a rather remarkable feat, isn't it, of financing?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I think that at the time we were leaving Russia, some of the rubles were exchanged for dollars, and maybe he kept part of that money, of which I have no knowledge, when we arrived in the United States. The only thing I know is that we lived very, very economically and Lee was saying all the time that the debts have to be paid as quickly as possible.
SenatorRussell. I was under the impression that there was a very drastic limit on the number of rubles that could be exchanged, that it was a hundred or 130 or something in that area?*
*Mrs.Oswald. According to the law in the Soviet Union, they allow about 90 rubles per person to be exchanged into foreign currency or dollars—$180 in our case because Lee was including the baby, andshe——
SenatorRussell. For each of them—the exchange.
Mrs.Oswald. Not for Lee.
SenatorRussell. No; he couldn't bring out any more than he took in with him. Well, he wasn't a visitor, though—yes, he was a visitor then. I know they checked my money when I went in there.**
**Mrs.Oswald. I don't know the reason why they didn't allow Lee to exchange $90, but I believe that there is a Soviet law that for Soviet citizens they allow $90 for each person. Excuse me.
*I believe that a foreigner is also entitled to exchange rubles for dollars, but in a very limited amount.
SenatorRussell. Mrs. Oswald, do you have any plans to return to the Soviet Union, or do you intend to live in this country?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Of course—to remain in the United States.
SenatorRussell. I have a few other questions, but I'm already taking too much time.
SenatorCooper. I want to say something off the record.
(Conference between Senator Cooper and Senator Russell off the record.)
RepresentativeBoggs. I have just one question.
SenatorCooper. All right.
SenatorRussell. Go right ahead.
RepresentativeBoggs. Mrs. Oswald, have you been taking English lessons?
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
RepresentativeBoggs. Do you speak English now?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I can't call it speaking English.
RepresentativeBoggs. But you understand English, you replied to my question a moment ago?**
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
RepresentativeBoggs. But you have been speaking English, studying English, and whom do you live with now?
Mrs.Oswald. With myself and my kids, with my neighbors.
RepresentativeBoggs. Do you read English?
Mrs.Oswald. No. A little bit.
*A little bit.
Mr.Gopadze. Naturally, she knows the English alphabet, but she doesn't read too much.
**Sometimes I read on my own, but on the other hand, it might be entirely different for an American.
SenatorRussell. Well, I believe you can speak it pretty well, Mrs. Oswald. You are a very intelligent person, and I've never seen a woman yet that didn't learn a foreign language three times as fast as a man.
Mrs.Oswald. Thank you.
SenatorRussell. They all do, and in some places in Russia you run into women that speak three or four languages very fluently, including in the high schools, where they have 10 or 12 years of English, starting in the first grade with it?
Mrs.Oswald. That's the way they try—to learn it in school.
SenatorRussell. Is that your foreign language? I understand in Russia each student has to study some one foreign language all the way—or at least for 5 or 6 years?
Mrs.Oswald. Yes; but I don't like this system of education in Russia to study some languages—well, he can speak, you know.
SenatorRussell. Mrs. Oswald, your attorney—your then attorney, according to the record, asked the Commission some questions about your memoirs, your diary or whatever it was that you have written—your reminiscences, and that they not be released. Have you ever made arrangements yet to sell them? Have you gotten rid of them? Because—the record of the Commission will be printed at a rather early date?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not want these memoirs to be published by Warren Commission.
SenatorRussell. Yes; I understand that.
*Mrs.Oswald. I am now working on a book and I may wish to include these memoirs in that book. I have no objection to the publication of the material in those memoirs that have any relation to the assassination of the President, or anything that is pertinent to this particular inquiry.
SenatorRussell. Of course, a great deal of it is very personal. It's about your social relations when you were a young woman. Of course, you are a young woman now, but when you were even younger than you are now, and the friends that you had, and things of that nature, and this report is going to be published before too long. And that's among the evidence there, and I was trying to get some timing on your book or whatever it is you are going to publish that would utilize this material, in an effort to help you—that is the only purpose I had, to try to see that you don't lose the publicity value of the memoirs.*
*Mrs.Oswald. I understand that and I'm certainly grateful to you for it.
**Would it be possible to publish in the report only parts of my life, that pertaining to the assassination, instead of my private life?
SenatorRussell. I cannot answer that, and only the entire Commission could answer that, but when I read that in the testimony, I was hoping that you had found some means of commercializing on it either to the moving picture people or to the publishing world.
Mrs.Oswald. As yet, I have not availed myself of that opportunity, sir.
SenatorRussell. When do you think you will publish this book?*
*Mrs.Oswald. The publisher will possibly publish the book toward the end of December, maybe in January and evenperhaps——
Mr.Gopadze. Not the publisher. The person who writes the story is hoping to be able to finish it in the latter part of December.
SenatorRussell. Of course, it goes into much more detail, I'm sure, than this sketch we have, because this wouldn't be anything like a book. It would be more of a magazine article.
**Mrs.Oswald. Would it be possible to delete it from the Commission's report?
SenatorRussell. I can't answer that because I'm not the whole Commission.**
Very frankly, I think the Commission would be disposed to publish all the material that they have, is my own honest view about it. The reason I am discussing it with you is to find out if you have done anything about it. Ofcourse, if you are writing a whole book, it won't be so important, just this one phase of it.
Mrs.Oswald, during the course of your testimony, you testified that Lee often called you twice a day while he was working away from home.
Why do you think he called you if he was not in love with you?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. When he was away from me, he told me that he missed me.
SenatorRussell. You don't think that's an indication that he loved you?*
*Mrs.Oswald. This shows—this would show that he loved me. He was a dual personality.
SenatorRussell. Split personality.
Mrs.Oswald. Split personality—that's it.
SenatorRussell. Mrs. Oswald, I noticed that one of the witnesses, I've forgotten which one it was, that ran the boarding house where Lee lived, testified that he called someone every night and talked to them at some length in a foreign language. That couldn't have been anyone except you, could it, that he was calling?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. I believe that I was the person he talked to.
SenatorRussell. He did call you quite frequently, did he not when you were in Irving and he was in Dallas, for example?
Mrs.Oswald. Every day.
SenatorRussell. But he didn't call you to abuse you over the phone, did he?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. Of course not.
SenatorRussell. It was the ordinary small talk you would have between a man and his wife—he would ask you about how the children were—one of them—was?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He always talked about our daughter June.
SenatorRussell. Did he ever say anything about, "I love you" or anything like that over the phone?**
Mrs.Oswald. (no response).
Mr.Gopadze. Did he?
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
SenatorRussell. He did?
*Mrs.Oswald. He did.
SenatorRussell. Now, you've testified before, and I'm just going on recollection, but I'm sure I'm right about this, that he told you in New Orleans that he was going to Mexico City and that he was going by bus and that a round trip would be much cheaper than a one-way fare. I noticed something in the paper the other day where you had found a one-way ticket or stub on the bus from Mexico City to Dallas, I believe it was. How did you happen to come into possession of that stub?*
*Mrs.Oswald. You say round trip was cheaper than one-way?
SenatorRussell. Yes; that's what you testified he told you in New Orleans when he said he was going. But here, according to the press—I don't know—a one-way stub turns up where he came back here to Dallas. Where did you get that stub?*
*Mrs.Oswald. My statement apparently was misinterpreted in the record, because Lee stated that the cost of the ticket, say, from Dallas to Mexico is cheaper than it is from Mexico City to Dallas or from one point to Mexico and from Mexico to that same point.
SenatorRussell. Well, that very easily could have become confused in translation, but it certainly is in there.*
Mr.Rankin. I think they have confused your question, Senator, I think they have confused your question. I think they think that you were saying that a round trip was cheaper than one way? Or—two ways?
SenatorRussell. I'm sorry, Mr. Gregory. You misunderstood it. I didn't mean that a round trip was cheaper than one way. I meant that a round trip was cheaper than to go there and back on individual tickets—than two ways.
Mr.Gregory. She understood you correctly. I misunderstood you, Senator. I'm sorry.
*Mrs.Oswald. The fact remains, according to Lee, that it is cheaper fromMexico—a one-way ticket from Mexico City, say, to Dallas costs less than from Dallas to Mexico, Mexico City. Or vice versa.
SenatorRussell. Be that as it may, how about the stub?
*Mrs.Oswald. I found the stub of this ticket approximately 2 weeks ago when working with Priscilla Johnson on the book. Three weeks.
*Three weeks ago—I found this stub of a ticket among old magazines, Spanish magazines, and there was a television program also in Spanish and there was the stub of this ticket.
Mrs.Oswald. But this was, you know, a piece of paper and I didn't know this was a ticket.
SenatorRussell. You didn't know it was a ticket?
Mrs.Oswald. No.
SenatorRussell. Until you showed it to Miss Johnson?
Mrs.Oswald. Yes—it was in the TV book and then Mr. Liebeler called me on telephone and asked me some questions about Mexico.
SenatorRussell. Yes?
Mrs.Oswald. And I told him, "Just a minute, I'll go and inquire and tell him what I have," and I told him I have some kind of piece of paper. I don't know what it is. I don't know whether it would be interested—the Commission, and somebody who was at my house onetime——
*Read what was on the stub.
SenatorRussell. You could read the stub all right, could you, Mrs. Oswald? There wasn't anything complicated there, you could read "One-way ticket," couldn't you? You know that much English?*
*Mrs.Oswald. It was a mixture of Spanish and English.
SenatorRussell. Oh, I see—it had it both ways, and the name of the bus company, too, perhaps.
Mrs.Oswald. I didn't understand this in languages—you can't say this.
SenatorRussell. Where had that magazine been that had this bus ticket in it, was anything else in it, any tickets to bull fights or anywhere else?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I turned all of this material over to the FBI, thinking that they might find something of interest in it. I did not try to determine for myself what it was.
SenatorRussell. Was it in the possessions that were removed from Mrs. Paine's room, or was it in some of Lee's material that was moved from his boardinghouse?*
Mrs.Oswald. It was with Mrs. Paine.
SenatorRussell. Didn't you testify, Mrs. Oswald, that Lee couldn't read Spanish, when you were testifying before? What was he doing with a Spanish magazine?
Mrs.Oswald. It wasn't a Spanish magazine, it was a TV program.
SenatorRussell. Pardon?
Mrs.Oswald. It was a TV program.
*It was not a Spanish magazine, it was a TV program.
SenatorRussell. Oh, it was not a magazine, it was a TV program. I understood you to say it was a Spanish magazine? I'm sorry.
*Mrs.Oswald. I found all this among my old magazines and newspapers, that I was collecting after the assassination of the President, and there also were English books which could have been in that small suitcase in which I put everything.
SenatorRussell. How did the FBI happen to overlook that when they made the raid out there at Mrs. Paine's? I thought they carried off everything you had out there, practically?*
*Mrs.Oswald. The reason they overlooked this particular suitcase is because I took it with meto——
**To the hotel—the first night they moved us.
*When we stayed in the hotel.
It was in Dallas.
SenatorRussell. It was in Dallas. That's when they were at the big hotel—where you spent one night there?
*Mrs.Oswald. It was in Dallas and I took it with me because there were children's books.
SenatorRussell. I thought the FBI had already removed your passports and your diploma and everything before that time?
*Mrs.Oswald. The first day when Lee was arrested, the FBI made a search.
Mr.Gopadze. The FBI or police.
Mr.Gregory. The FBI or police.
SenatorRussell. I believe it was the police then.
*Mrs.Oswald. The police made the search in the Paine's house.
SenatorRussell. Yes.
*Mrs.Oswald. And everything was there. I did not take anything with me that first day when I was arrested.
SenatorRussell. When you returned to Mrs. Paine's you found they had left this particular program there with this bus stub? You testified they had removed your passport and your diploma and Lee's union cards and Social Security card and everything else—I was just wondering how they happened to leave this particular article with the bus stub in it?*
Mrs.Oswald. **I never retained that for any special reason.
SenatorRussell. I'm quite sure of that. I wasn't asking that at all.**
Mrs.Oswald. **I don't know the reason.
SenatorRussell. They just overlooked that?
Mrs.Oswald. **It was just overlooked—the same way they overlooked that other.
SenatorRussell. Mrs. Oswald, what are your relations now with the friends that you made in the Russian community here in Dallas? I don't remember all of the names—one of them was named Elena Hall, is that right, and Katya Ford, Anna Meller, De Mohrenschildt, De Mohrenschildt's wife and children—are you still on friendly terms with them, do you see them occasionally?*
*Mrs.Oswald. As far as I'm concerned, I consider all of them as my friends, but George Bouhe, and Katya Ford are the only two people that come to visit me. Others perhaps feel that it is not healthy for them to come to see me.
SenatorRussell. I wondered if they had expressed their opinion or whether they were afraid of you on account of publicity contamination?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No, they never said that to me personally that they are afraid to come to see me. When we meet in the church, they are all very pleasant to me, but they never invite me.
Mr.Gopadze. No.
**Mrs.Oswald. Sometimes they invite Katya Ford, but they never invite me. Nataska Krassovska is very nice to me.
SenatorRussell. When was the first time you ever heard of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein?*
Mrs.Oswald. When he killed him.
SenatorRussell. You had never heard of him until that time?
Mrs.Oswald. (Nodding a negative response.)
SenatorRussell. That's all.
SenatorCooper. What is your address now, Mrs. Oswald, and with whom do you live?
Mrs.Oswald. 629 Belt Line Road, Richardson, Tex.
SenatorCooper. Does someone live with you or do you live with someone?
Mrs.Oswald. No; I live by myself with my children.
SenatorCooper. After the death of your husband, you had a lawyer, Mr. Thorne, and a business agent, Mr. Martin, and they were discharged. Was there any particular reason for discharging them?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I got rid of them because the contract that they prepared was unfair to me, and it was prepared at a time when I did not understand it and when it was not translated to me.
SenatorCooper. Now, you later employed Mr. McKenzie as your attorney and you have since discharged him, haven't you?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I employed Mr. McKenzie to wind up the affair with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne, and he was not employed on any other basis—just for that particular thing.
**Not permanently.
*Not permanently—just for that particular thing, despite the fact that he did give advice on other business of mine. Of course, I needed an attorneyin my dealings with the Commission that's what he told me—that I needed an attorney to deal with the Commission.
Mr.Gopadze. Shesaid——
Mr.Rankin. She said more than that.
*Mrs.Oswald. Now, as I feel now, I don't need any lawyer before the Commission.
SenatorCooper. If you'll just answer my question now: Do you have a lawyer to represent you now?*
Mrs.Oswald. No.
SenatorCooper. Who is your business agent?
Mrs.Oswald. Mrs. Katya Ford.
SenatorCooper. Can you tell the Commission about how much money has been donated to you or how much you have earned through contracts?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I do not know at this time how much money I have.
SenatorCooper. Approximately?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Donations were $57,000, from which twelve and one-half thousand plus expenses were paid to Martin and Thorne, and $15,000 to Mr. McKenzie.
SenatorCooper. Do you have any contracts, have you made any contracts for the sale of your writings which may be payable in the future?* **
Mrs.Oswald. The publishing company contract with me is all.
*I have not signed any contracts with the publishing company, except I have already signed several contracts with Life Magazine.
After the diary was published.
**After the diary was published.
SenatorCooper. That's for $20,000?
Mrs.Oswald. $20,000 plus $1,000 for Parade Magazine, and one girl—Helen—I don't know her last name, I know wedid——
*Also, I signed—I agreed with a girl by the name of Helen—I cannot remember her last name, for possible future stories Helen might write.
We have interview.
SenatorCooper. You testified that your uncle is an official and a Colonel in the MVD?* ** And, a member of the Communist Party, is that correct?
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
SenatorCooper. Do you know that any other members of your family are members of the Communist Party?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. The husband of another aunt.
SenatorCooper. Is that the aunt you visited from time to time?* **
**Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
SenatorCooper. At Kharkov?
Mrs.Oswald. At Minsk.
SenatorCooper. With whom did you file your declaration for an exit visa?** *
*Mrs.Oswald. There is a special institution in Minsk where prospective departees filed application for exit visa. They leave the application in that institution, and that institution transmits it to Moscow where the decision is made whether to grant or to deny the exit permit. The reply then comes to the MVD in Minsk.
*I want to assure the Commission that I was never given any assignment by the Soviet Government or the American Government, and that I was so surprised myself that I got the exit visa.
SenatorCooper. When you talked to Colonel Aksenov, what did he tell you when you asked him about the exit visa?*
*Mrs.Oswald. When I went to see Colonel Aksenov, I went to ask him about the state in which my application is for exit visa, and hereplied——
Mr.Gopadze. No. "Was it favorable or not," and he said it was favorable.
Mr.Gregory. Yes, and hesaid——
Mr.Gopadze. That it takes official process of getting the answer.
*Mrs.Oswald. He said, "You are not the only one who is seeking exit permit, and so you have to wait your turn."
SenatorCooper. Did he attempt to discourage you from seeking the exit visa?
Mrs.Oswald. No.
SenatorCooper. Did Lee Oswald ever express any opinion to you as to why he thought an exit visa might be granted to you and your daughter?
*Mrs.Oswald. He encouraged me and he thought that I would consider that he exerted every effort on his part for me to get this exit. Maybe he just was saying that that way, but never hoped that actually I would get the exit permit.
SenatorCooper. During that time or at any other time, did Lee ever say to you that he might do some work for the Soviet Union if you did return to the United States?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He did not.
SenatorCooper. I would like to turn to your testimony about your knowledge of the rifle that Lee possessed. Now, as I remember your testimony, you stated that you first learned that he had the rifle early in 1963.*
*Mrs.Oswald. In the year that he bought it, I learned it.
SenatorCooper. You had seen him clean it, you had watched him sight the rifle in New Orleans and work the bolt?* **
Mr.Gregory. In New Orleans?
SenatorCooper. Yes; in your testimony, you said you saw him sitting on the little backporch——
Mrs.Oswald. On the little back porch—yes.
SenatorCooper. And sight the rifle?
*Mrs.Oswald. I'm sorry, I might be mixed up.
SenatorCooper. When you testified that you believed he did some target practice at least a few times?
*Mrs.Oswald. In Dallas or New Orleans?* **
*Yes; when we lived on Neely Street.
SenatorCooper. He told you that he had used this rifle to fire at General Walker?*
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
SenatorCooper. He told you he had threatened Vice President Nixon, you had said?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He did not say "Vice President Nixon," he just said "Nixon."
SenatorCooper. Now, was it your opinion throughout these months that he was keeping this rifle for his purpose of using it again, firing at some individual, perhaps an official of the United States Government?* **
Mrs.Oswald. **He never expressed himself.
*When the assassination of President Kennedy took place, I was asking people whether—people in general—whether General Walker was with President Kennedy. It perhaps was a silly question, but I thought thathe——
SenatorCooper. Listen to my question: During this time, didn't you have the opinion that he was keeping possession of this rifle and practicing with it for the purpose of using it to shoot at some individual, and perhaps an official of the United States Government?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I never thought—I was afraid to think that he would do anything like that until the shooting of General Walker occurred.
SenatorCooper. But now my question. After that—the continued possession——* **
**Mrs.Oswald. After the attempting of the killing of General Walker, I thought he might do it, but I didn't visualize that he could do anything like that.
SenatorCooper. When you testified before the Commission, you said—generally—you didn't think Lee would repeat anything like that—"Generally, I knew that the rifle was very tempting for him".
"Very tempting for him"—what did you mean by that, about the rifle being very tempting for him? Did you believe he might be tempted to shoot at someone else?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes; I was afraid that he did have temptation to kill someone else.
SenatorCooper. Mrs. Oswald, you testified that when you talked to Lee after he had shot at General Walker, or told you he had shot at General Walker, he said that it would have been well if someone had killed Hitler because many lives would be saved, is that correct?
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
SenatorCooper. After that, you testified that many times or a number of times he read you articles about President Kennedy?
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
SenatorCooper. And said at one time, discussing President Kennedy's father, that he had made his money through wine and he had a great deal of money, and that enabled him to educate his sons and to give them a start.
I want you to remember and tell the Commission if he did ever express any hatred or dislike for President Kennedy. You have several times—not changed—but you have told the Commission things you did not tell them when first asked.
Now, if he did speak to you about President Kennedy, we think you should tell the Commission?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I don't think he ever expressed hatred toward President Kennedy, but perhaps he expressed jealousy, not only jealousy, but envy, but perhaps he envied, because he said, "Whoever has money has it easy." That was his general attitude. It was not a direct quotation.
RepresentativeBoggs. Pursuing this—I asked you that very question in Washington back in February, and the answer was "No." I asked you whether or not your husband ever expressed hostility toward President Kennedy—is your answer still "No"?*
*Mrs.Oswald. My answer is "No."
**He never expressed himself anything against President Kennedy, anything detrimental toward him. What I told them generally before, I am repeating now too.
RepresentativeBoggs. Did he ever indicate to you, except in the Walker situation where he said he'd shot at General Walker, that he would kill anyone?*
*Mrs.Oswald. No.
RepresentativeBoggs. What about Nixon?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He did tell me he was about ready to commit that particular act, with respect to Nixon. That's when I kept him in the bathroom, but he never said, "Well, today it's Walker and then I'm going to kill someone else." He never said that. He never related to me any of his plans about killing anybody.
*In other words, he never said to me, "Now, I'll kill Walker and then I'll kill this fellow" and so on—he never did.
SenatorCooper. You testified that your husband said that he did not like the United States for several reasons; one, because of certain Fascist organizations; two, because of difficulty of securing employment; and another reason—because of the high cost of medical care. Did he ever say that those things that he did not like could be remedied or changed if an official of the Government were done away with?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. No; he never told me.
**No; he never told me—he never told me.
SenatorCooper. Did any official of the Soviet Union, or any person who was a Soviet citizen, ever talk to you or ever talk to Lee to your knowledge, during the time that you were in the United States?
Mr.Gregory. At any time before or after?
SenatorCooper. Yes?
SenatorRussell. You said—in the United States, didn't you?
SenatorCooper. Yes; in the United States.*
*Mrs.Oswald. No; no one ever did. The only time Lee talked with a representative of the Soviet Union was in Mexico, but not me and Lee, we were never approached by the Soviet representatives.
SenatorCooper. When was the first time you ever heard of Police Officer Tippit?*
*Mrs.Oswald. When there was a broadcast over the radio that Officer Tippit was killed.
SenatorCooper. Have you seen Mrs. Paine since the time you left her home after the assassination?*
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
I saw her twice since I left Irving, since I lived with her in Irving.
SenatorCooper. When was that?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Once, when I lived with Katya Ford in February of this year, and the next time I do not recall—maybe 1 month later.
In my house.
SenatorCooper. You had quite an association with her, and I need not recall all of the facts, but is there any reason now that you do not wish to see her?*
*Mrs.Oswald. One of the reasons is that she belongs to the Civil Liberties Union and I don't want to get mixed up in anything. I already have plenty of grief.
SenatorCooper. Just one other question—is there any other fact about this subject, which you have been asked by the Commission or by anyone else that you have knowledge of that you have not told us about it? Any fact that would bear on this inquiry?* **
*Mrs.Oswald. I would be glad to, but I don't know of any.
RepresentativeBoggs. May I just ask one or two questions?
Have you seen Mrs. Marguerite Oswald at any time since you first appeared before the Commission?
Mrs.Oswald. No.
RepresentativeBoggs. Have you heard from her?
Mrs.Oswald. No.
RepresentativeBoggs. You've had no communication from her either directly or indirectly?* **
Mrs.Oswald. No.
*She tried to get in touch with me.
**Through Attorney McKenzie.
RepresentativeBoggs. And you refused to see her?
Mrs.Oswald. Yes.
*I think that she may have been bad influence with the children—improper influence with the children.
**I feel that—I hardly believe—that Lee Oswald really tried to kill President Kennedy.
Mrs.Oswald. I feel in my own mind that Lee did not have President Kennedy as a prime target when he assassinated him.
RepresentativeBoggs. Well, who was it?
*Mrs.Oswald. I think it was Connally. That's my personal opinion that he perhaps was shooting at Governor Connally, the Governor of Texas.
SenatorRussell. You've testified before us before that Lee told you he was coming back to Texas—if he was back in Texas, he would vote for Connally for Governor. Why do you think he would shoot him?
Mrs.Oswald. **I feel that the reason that he had Connally in his mind was on account of his discharge from the Marines and various letters they exchanged between the Marine Corps and the Governor's office, but actually, I didn't think that he had any idea concerning President Kennedy.
RepresentativeBoggs. Well, now, my next question is—did he ever express any hostility to Governor Connally?*
*Mrs.Oswald. He never expressed that to me—his displeasure or hatred of Connally, but I feel that there could have been some connection, due to the fact that Lee was dishonorably discharged from the Corps, and there was an exchange of letters between the Governor's Office and Lee. That's my personal opinion.
RepresentativeBoggs. Just a minute. Excuse me, Senator.
I asked you in February, Mrs. Oswald, I said, "What motive would you ascribe to your husband in killing President Kennedy?" And, you said, "As I saw the documents that were being read to me, I came to the conclusion that he wanted by any means, good or bad to get into history, and now that I've read a part of the translation of some of the documents, I think that there was some political foundation to it, a foundation of which I am not aware."
And then you go on and you express no doubt in your mind that he intended to kill President Kennedy.
Mrs.Oswald. **Did I say that, this last time in Dallas? The last time in Dallas, apparently there was some misunderstanding on the part of my answersto the Commission, because I was told by Mr. McKenzie that it wasn't reported accurately.
*The record should read that on the basis of the documents that I have read, I have no doubt—that I had available to me to read—I had no doubt that hedid——
Mr.Gopadze. That he could killhim——
Mr.Gregory. Could or have wanted to—could have wantedto——
Mr.Gopadze. He could kill—she doesn't say "want"—he could have killed him.
RepresentativeBoggs. Let's straighten this out because this is very important.
Mrs.Oswald. Okay.
RepresentativeBoggs. I'll read it to you, "I gather that you have reached the conclusion in your own mind that your husband killed President Kennedy?" You replied, "Regretfully—yes."
Now, do you have any reason to change that?*
*Mrs.Oswald. That's correct. I have no doubt that he did kill the President.
RepresentativeBoggs. Now, the other answer as I read it was: "On the basis of documents that you had seen presented at the Commission hearing"—isn't that right?
Mrs.Oswald. **The word "documents" is wrong—the facts presented—that's what I mean.
RepresentativeBoggs. Again we get back to the question of motive. You said again today that you are convinced that Lee Oswald killed President Kennedy.
You said something additionally today, though, and that is that you feel that it was his intention not to kill President Kennedy, but to kill Governor Connally.
Now, am I correct in saying that she had not said this previously?
Mr.Rankin. Ask her that.* **
RepresentativeBoggs. Let's get an answer. I think this answer is quite important.
*Mrs.Oswald. On the basis of all the available facts, I have no doubt in my mind that Lee Oswald killed President Kennedy.
*At the same time, I feel in my own mind as far as I am concerned, I feel that Lee—that my husband perhaps intended to kill Governor Connally instead of President Kennedy.
RepresentativeBoggs. Now, let me ask you one other question: Assuming that this is correct, would you feel that there would be any less guilt in killing Governor Connally than in killing the President?*
*Mrs.Oswald. I am not trying to vindicate or justify or excuse Lee as my husband. Even if he killed one of his neighbors, still it wouldn't make much difference—it wouldn't make any difference—a killing is a killing. I am sorry.
RepresentativeBoggs. There are one or two other questions I want to ask her.
I know you've been asked a lot of questions about this thing. How old were you when you left Russia?*
Mrs.Oswald. Twenty years. My birthday—I was 21 when I came here. In July—my birthday was in July.
RepresentativeBoggs. Were you a member of the Communist Party in Russia?*
Mrs.Oswald. No.
*I was a member of a Komsomol organization.
RepresentativeBoggs. What is that?*
*Mrs.Oswald. It is an association of young Communist youth. It is not party, sir. In order to become a member of the Communist Party, one has to be first a member of the Komsomol, but I didn't even have the membership card in Komsomol Association.
RepresentativeBoggs. Would it be normal for one to graduate, so to speak, from the Komsomol to the membership in the Communist Party?*
*Mrs.Oswald. It is a prerequisite for a prospective member of the Communist Party to be first a member of the Komsomol organization, but not every member of Komsomol becomes a Communist Party member.
Mr.Rankin. What percentage?
SenatorCooper. She was expelled?
SenatorRussell. No; she testified she quit the Youth Movement.*
*Mrs.Oswald. I was dismissed.
**I was expelled from Komsomol.
SenatorRussell. Why—for what reason?*
*Mrs.Oswald. The reason given to me for being expelled from Komsomol was because I did not get my card, because I did not take out my Komsomol card for 1 year. That was the reason given to me, but I believe the true reason why they expelled me from Komsomol was because I married an American.
It also happened about the time when I visited the American Embassy. I was expelled the following week after I visited the American Embassy in Moscow.
SenatorRussell. Did you pay any dues to the Komsomol?
Mrs.Oswald. Yes; 30¢
*Yes; 30¢ every month.
SenatorRussell. I thought that practically all young people belonged to the Komsomol?* **
Mrs.Oswald. No.
SenatorRussell. There are many more of them than there are members of the Communist Party, aren't there?*
Mrs.Oswald. Oh, yes.
SenatorRussell. Nearly every city in Russia has a big building, there is a Youth Komsomol Building?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes; I was persuaded or talked into joining the Komsomol organization.
SenatorRussell. I thought that was automatic?**
Mrs.Oswald. No.
*No—one has to be accepted into Komsomol. It is not automatic.
RepresentativeBoggs. One further question, and this is off the record.
(Interrogatories and answers off the record at this point.)
RepresentativeBoggs. In response to Senator Russell, I gathered that you plan to stay in the United States?*
*Mrs.Oswald. Yes; if possible.