The testimony of D. V. Harkness was taken at 11:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Belin. Will you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Harkness. I do.
Mr.Belin. Your name, sir, would you please state?
Mr.Harkness. D. V. Harkness, Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Belin. Where do you live?
Mr.Harkness. 2123 San Pablo.
Mr.Belin. Is that in Dallas?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. What position do you have with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Harkness. Sergeant of police.
Mr.Belin. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Harkness. Little over 17 years.
Mr.Belin. How old are you, sir?
Mr.Harkness. Forty-two.
Mr.Belin. Did you go to school here in Dallas?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. How far did you get through school?
Mr.Harkness. High school.
Mr.Belin. High school graduate?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Harkness. One year worked for the East Texas Refining Co.
Mr.Belin. Then what?
Mr.Harkness. Then I worked for the Baker Hotel in the auditing office.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Harkness. Went in the service for 4 years.
Mr.Belin. Army?
Mr.Harkness. Coast Guard.
Mr.Belin. What did you do in the Coast Guard generally?
Mr.Harkness. I was a boatswain's mate second when I was discharged.
Mr.Belin. Doing what?
Mr.Harkness. Let's see, I was on the troop transport at the time of my discharge.
Mr.Belin. Honorable discharge?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Harkness. Come back and went to work for Alexander Motor Co.
Mr.Belin. As what?
Mr.Harkness. Worked in the office in the purchasing department.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Harkness. Went with the Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Belin. Been there ever since?
Mr.Harkness. Ever since.
Mr.Belin. Were you on duty November 22, 1963?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Doing what?
Mr.Harkness. Supervising the traffic officers from Main and Field along the parade route to Elm and Houston.
Mr.Belin. Where were you around 12:30 p.m.?
Mr.Harkness. At Main and Houston.
Mr.Belin. On the east or west side of Houston?
Mr.Harkness. West side of Houston.
Mr.Belin. Did you watch the motorcade come by?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Where were you when you heard the shots?
Mr.Harkness. I had started west on Main Street to the, I don't know what they call this area here.
Mr.Belin. Plaza.
Mr.Harkness. On the plaza area with the crowd to observe the President as he went west on Elm Street.
Mr.Belin. How many shots did you hear?
Mr.Harkness. Three.
Mr.Belin. What did you do after you heard those noises? Did you know they were shots, by the way?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. What did you do?
Mr.Harkness. When I saw the first shot and the President's car slow down to almost astop——
Mr.Belin. When you saw the first shot, what do you mean by that?
Mr.Harkness. When I heard the first shot and saw the President's car almost come to a stop and some of the agents piling off the car, I went back to the intersection to get my motorcycle.
Mr.Belin. You were in the process of doing that when you heard the second and third shots?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Where did the shots sound like they came from?
Mr.Harkness. I couldn't tell. They were bouncing off the buildings down there. I couldn't tell.
Mr.Belin. You mean the reverberations?
Mr.Harkness. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Harkness. I went west on Main to observe the area between the railroad tracks and Industrial.
Mr.Belin. Why did you go down there?
Mr.Harkness. By the way the people, when I went into this area, everybodywas hitting the ground, and someone led us to indicate that the shots were coming into the cars.
Mr.Belin. You mean from some point in front of the cars?
Mr.Harkness. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Do you know who that someone was?
Mr.Harkness. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. What did that person do that indicated that?
Mr.Harkness. I don't remember.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Harkness. I went down to Industrial to see if I could see anyone fleeing that area.
Mr.Belin. What did you see?
Mr.Harkness. I didn't see anyone, so I come back to the front of the Book Depository and went around to this fence that was across the street from Elm Street.
Mr.Belin. What do you mean across the street from Elm Street?
Mr.Harkness. Again, I will have to—near the railroad track.
Mr.Belin. Behind the building?
Mr.Harkness. No, sir; this area right here. See, Elm Street goes down.
Mr.Belin. What you are reallysaying——
Mr.Harkness. This area.
Mr.Belin. You are pointing to a place between what would be the extension of Elm that doesn't go down into the parkway but the actual extension of Elm?
Mr.Harkness. Yes; to the plaza area.
Mr.Belin. The plaza area?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. What did you find there?
Mr.Harkness. I found a little colored boy, Amos Euins, who told me he saw the shots come from that building.
Mr.Belin. Now you just picked out a little small book, one of those little pocket notebooks?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Or a notepad from your pocket here. Is that the original notation that you made?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. When did you make that notation?
Mr.Harkness. Immediately after the shooting.
Mr.Belin. Is that your own record that you have kept in your possession since then?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir. Iturned——
Mr.Belin. You turned what?
Mr.Harkness. After I took his name and address and put this information on the radio, I then took him on the back of my three-wheel motorcycle and put him in Inspector Sawyer's car.
Mr.Belin. Now you mentioned that you put something on the radio here, and I hand you here what has been marked as Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A. Before doing that, do you remember what call number you used, you were using on that day?
Mr.Harkness. I believe 260.
Mr.Belin. Well, I notice here that there is a call with a notation at 12:36 p.m., 260 to 531. 531 is your office in the main station?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. What does it say there on that transcript?
Mr.Harkness. "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository store at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."
Mr.Belin. All right, that was at 12:36 p.m.?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Had the building been sealed off at that time?
Mr.Harkness. Not to my knowledge. There were several officers around it, but I don't know whether it had been sealed off or not.
Mr.Belin. In the process of sealing off the building, what did you do?
Mr.Harkness. Asked for a squad.
Mr.Belin. How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?
Mr.Harkness. The squad was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.
Mr.Belin. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr.Harkness. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.
Mr.Belin. You are talking about the back part of the building?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. What about the front part of the building? When was that sealed off?
Mr.Harkness. Inspector Sawyer and two officers were there.
Mr.Belin. By the time you got around to the front part of the building?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir; by the time I put the witness in his car, I went immediately to the back.
Mr.Belin. In other words, as I understand the sequence, you first went to the back of the building and had that sealed off first, or not?
Mr.Harkness. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. You tell me what happened then.
Mr.Harkness. I had this witness with me. I didn't want to lose this witness.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Harkness. So I took him to the car.
Mr.Belin. To Inspector Sawyer's car?
Mr.Harkness. To Inspector Sawyer's car, which was right in front.
Mr.Belin. Which was parked in front of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Harkness. And left the witness there and went around to the back.
Mr.Belin. On whose radio did you call? Did you call in before or after you left the witness in the car?
Mr.Harkness. I don't remember in exact sequence there, but it was in the process of going to the car there.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Harkness. See, here is the thing. The radio traffic was heavy at the time, and it depended on how long you had to wait to get in.
Mr.Belin. All right, in any event, after you made the call, what did you do on the radio? And after you got the man in the car?
Mr.Harkness.Well——
Mr.Belin. The witness in the car, what did you do?
Mr.Harkness. Stayed at the back of the building until I was relieved by a squad.
Mr.Belin. So you then went to the back of the building?
Mr.Harkness. Yes.
Mr.Belin. When you were at Inspector Sawyer's car, did you see him there?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Was he at his car?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir; he was by his car, near his car.
Mr.Belin. Do you know whether or not he had gone inside the building yet?
Mr.Harkness. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. You mean you don't know?
Mr.Harkness. Don't know whether he had gone in or not. Actually, he was standing there in front taking information. All the information was being funneled to Inspector Sawyer.
Mr.Belin. Did you tell him you had a witness?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. In his car?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. At that time, had the building been sealed off yet when you told him that?
Mr.Harkness. At that time?
Mr.Belin. When you told Inspector Sawyer that you had a witness that said the shot came from the building, up to that particular moment, had the front part of the building been sealed off yet?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. It had already been sealed off?
Mr.Harkness. There was two officers with Inspector Sawyer at the front.
Mr.Belin. Were they stopping people from going in and out?
Mr.Harkness. I don't know.
Mr.Belin. You don't know?
Mr.Harkness. No, sir; I don't know that, because I didn't go up and talk to them.
Mr.Belin. Did you notice whether or not people were coming in and out of the building?
Mr.Harkness. No. I was interested in getting around to the back of the building to make sure it was.
Mr.Belin. Then am I correct that your testimony is that you didn't notice whether people were coming in and out? Did you notice, or did you not notice whether people were coming out of the building at that time?
Mr.Harkness. Several officers at the area, and it was a lot of people around. I don't know whether they were going in or out or not. I couldn't say that.
Mr.Belin. Then you went around to the back of the building?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Was anyone around in the back when you got there?
Mr.Harkness. There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service.
Mr.Belin. Then did you stay around the back of the building?
Mr.Harkness. Yes; I stayed at the back until the squad got there.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Harkness. I went back to the front, and Inspector Sawyer—helped to get the crowd back first, and then Inspector Sawyer assigned me to some freight cars that were leaving out of the yard, to go down and search all freight cars that were leaving the yard.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Harkness. Well, we got a long freight that was in there, and we pulled some people off of there and took them to the station.
Mr.Belin. You mean some transients?
Mr.Harkness. Tramps and hoboes.
Mr.Belin. That were on the freight car?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Harkness. That was all my assignment, because they shook two long freights down that were leaving, to my knowledge, in all the area there.
We had several officers working in that area.
Mr.Belin. Do you know whether or not anyone found any suspicious people of any kind or nature down there in the railroad yard?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir. We made some arrests, I put some people in.
Mr.Belin. Were these what you call hoboes or tramps?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Were all those questioned?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir; they were taken to the station and questioned.
Mr.Belin. Any guns of any kind found?
Mr.Harkness. Not to my knowledge.
Mr.Belin. I want to go back to this Amos Euins. Do you remember what he said to you and what you said to him when you first saw him?
Mr.Harkness. I went in that crowd up there near the area there, and asked did anyone see any place where the shots come from, and there was an unidentified person pointed to him, said this boy here saw it, saw the shots, where the shots came from, and he told me it was.
Mr.Belin. Then what did he say?
Mr.Harkness. He told me that the shots came from the window under the ledge.
Mr.Belin. Of what building?
Mr.Harkness. Of the School Book Depository.
Mr.Belin. Now have you since gone back to that building?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Do you know where the ledge is?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir; let's see, I have been by the place a million times. The ledge there is the one window where it came from, I believe.
Mr.Belin. You can't right now definitely state what floor the ledge would be?
Mr.Harkness.Well——
Mr.Belin. If you can't, I would rather not have you guess, but if you do know, I would like to have you state.
Mr.Harkness. I believe thatit——
Mr.Belin. Sergeant, now, do you know where that ledge is now?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Between what floors is the ledge?
Mr.Harkness. The ledge is between, over the sixth floor.
Mr.Belin. All right, well here in your police report I show you Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, you said the, "Witness says shots came from fifth floor Texas School Book Depository." Did the witness say it was from the sixth floor, or did he say it was from the fifth floor?
Mr.Harkness. He said it was from the fifth floor.
Mr.Belin. What were the exact words of the witness?
Mr.Harkness. The exact words of the witness "It was under the ledge," which would put it on the sixth floor. It was my error in a hasty count of the floors.
Mr.Belin. Did the witness say what particular window on that floor that he saw it on?
On the floor under the ledge?
Mr.Harkness. Said it was the last window, which would indicate it would be the last window on the east side of the building.
Mr.Belin. Did he say to his right as he saw it, or did he just say the last window from where he was standing?
Mr.Harkness. Last window from where he was standing, and at that point it would indicate that it would be the last window on the east side of the building facing Elm Street.
Mr.Belin. Were you standing at the time, on the north or south side of Elm when you talked to this witness?
Mr.Harkness. I was.
Mr.Belin. When you were with this witness, had this Amos Euins, were you standing on the north or the south side of Elm as it goes into the Parkway there?
Mr.Harkness. Elm as it goes under the Parkway—was between Elm where it goes under the triple underpass, and the extension of Elm there in that park area.
Mr.Belin. So that is where you were standing?
Mr.Harkness. Yes.
Mr.Belin. So that would be north of Elm as it goes into the underpass, but south of the extension of Elm?
Mr.Harkness. Where that building is, yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Would you have been west of the School Book Depository Building at that time?
Mr.Harkness. Yes.
Mr.Belin. So the witness pointed to the last one on that floor? That would be the last one which would be to the east, is that correct?
Mr.Harkness. That's correct.
Mr.Belin. Anything else you can remember this witness said?
Mr.Harkness. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Did he say whether or not he saw a rifle?
Mr.Harkness. He couldn't tell.
Mr.Belin. Sergeant, do you remember anything else that you said?
Mr.Harkness. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Did you actually talk to any other person whose name you recorded in your little book there?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir; Arnold Rowland.
Mr.Belin. Arnold Rowland?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. What did he say?
Mr.Harkness. He said that he saw a man on one of those floors. He didn't clearly identify it, as he saw a man with a high-powered rifle walking around up there.
Mr.Belin. Did he say anything else that you could have recorded there?
Mr.Harkness. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Anything else you remember?
Mr.Harkness. Except his address. I have his address as 3026 Hammerly.
Mr.Belin. Did he say anything else?
Mr.Harkness. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything else that happened that day that might in any way be relevant to this investigation?
Mr.Harkness. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. What did you do on Saturday?
Mr.Harkness. Saturday I was assigned to traffic at Elm and Houston, between Elm and Main.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything else that you did on Saturday or on Sunday that might in any way be relevant to this area of inquiry?
Mr.Harkness. On Saturday had a large crowd down there, and I observed Jack Ruby at the entrance of the jail down there on Saturday.
Mr.Belin. You saw Jack Ruby near the entrance of the jail on Saturday?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Has your statement already been taken by anyone before on the President's Commission?
Mr.Harkness. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. But you did see Jack Ruby?
Mr.Harkness. I testified in Ruby's trial to that effect.
Mr.Belin. Anyone else or anything else that might be in any way relevant here?
Mr.Harkness. The only thing, on Sunday I was leaving town; going to Whitesboro, and my wife and kids, we heard over the radio that Oswald had been shot.
When I arrived in Whitesboro, I called Capt. Fritz of the Dallas Police Department, and told him that I had seen Ruby near the entrance of the county jail the day before, which was a Saturday.
Mr.Belin. Anything else?
Mr.Harkness. That is all.
Mr.Belin. But did you ever talk to Ruby at any time afterwards?
Mr.Harkness. No, sir; not afterwards.
Mr.Belin. Did you know Ruby at all, or not?
Mr.Harkness. I had met him, and being downtown traffic sergeant, I had seen him before, and I knew who he was, but other than that, that is all.
Mr.Belin. Is there any other thing you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that might in any way be relevant to the investigation of the assassination or the shooting of Officer Tippit?
Mr.Harkness. No, sir; I don't have anything on that, other than what I heard over the radio.
Mr.Belin. By the way, did your witness ever say whether the person he saw at the window was a white man or Negro?
Mr.Harkness. He just told me, he just said he couldn't identify him. That is what he told me.
Mr.Belin. Did he tell you whether or not it was a man?
Mr.Harkness. I don't remember, because I knew I couldn't get any information out of him, enough to put out a description on it.
Mr.Belin. Anything else?
Mr.Harkness. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Sir, we want to thank you very much for coming down here and testifying.
You have an opportunity, if you would like, to come back and read your deposition when it is typed, and sign it, or you can waive reading and signing it and just have the court reporter send the transcript to us directly in Washington. If you have any preference, you might let us know.
Mr.Harkness. I have no preference. I just hope I have been able to help you on these directions, because they are complicated to give directions, especially when you try to convince.
Mr.Belin. In any event, do you want to sign or waive signing? You have a right to sign or you can waive the signing of it and send it directly to us, whatever you want to do.
Mr.Harkness. Waiver is customary? It doesn't make any difference.
Mr.Belin. Some people do one way and some the other way. Do you want to come back and read it and sign it, or do you want to waive signing it and let the court reporter send us the transcript direct?
Mr.Harkness. What has most of them been doing?
Mr.Belin. Gosh, I have them doing both ways. I couldn't tell you what most have been doing, sir.
Mr.Harkness. I will just waive.
The testimony of J. Herbert Sawyer was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Belin. Would you stand and raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Sawyer. I do.
Mr.Belin. What is your occupation?
Mr.Sawyer. Inspector of Police.
Mr.Belin. Of what Police Department?
Mr.Sawyer. Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Belin. You live here in Dallas?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Inspector, how long have you been with the Police Department?
Mr.Sawyer. 23 years.
Mr.Belin. That would be then you came to the Police Department around 1941 or so?
Mr.Sawyer. 1941, is right.
Mr.Belin. You have been with them ever since 1941?
Mr.Sawyer. Except for a brief hitch in the Service during the war.
Mr.Belin. What did you do in the Service?
Mr.Sawyer. I was a yeoman in the Navy.
Mr.Belin. Honorable discharge?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Prior to going into the Service, what did you do?
Mr.Sawyer. Policeman.
Mr.Belin. Before you went into the Service?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Did you go to school here in Dallas?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Graduated from high school?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes. I didn't graduate. I lacked half a year.
Mr.Belin. Then you got out and you went in—did you go right on the police force then?
Mr.Sawyer. No.
Mr.Belin. What did you do?
Mr.Sawyer. I worked as credit manager in a jewelry company. This was immediately prior to coming to the police department.
Before that, I was a doorman at the Mural Room of the Baker Hotel.
Mr.Belin. When you first got out of high school, what did you do?
Mr.Sawyer. I went out to California and went to work as a clerk in a grocery store.
Mr.Belin. What did you do after that?
Mr.Sawyer. Came back to Dallas and went to Business College, and then I went to work as a doorman at the Mural Room of the Baker Hotel.
And then from there I went to the jewelry, and later became credit manager.
Mr.Belin. And then after that?
Mr.Sawyer. Then to the Police Department.
Mr.Belin. You have been with the Police Department ever since except for this time in the Navy?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. How old are you?
Mr.Sawyer. 47.
Mr.Belin. You are married?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Inspector, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. By the way, were you an Inspector at that time?
Mr.Sawyer. I was.
Mr.Belin. Where were you stationed with reference to the motorcade? Just what were your duties?
Mr.Sawyer. I had charge of the crowd detail on Main Street from Akard to Harwood.
Mr.Belin. After the motorcade passed, what did you do?
Mr.Sawyer. I headed west on Main Street.
Mr.Belin. Did you immediately get in your car after the motorcade passed?
Mr.Sawyer. Well, not immediately, because the crowd was real thick and completely surrounded the car, but I did as soon as it was feasible to get back in the car.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember where your car was parked?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes. It was parked on Ervay Street, at the intersection of Ervay and Main, but it was, well, it was on the north side of Main Street on Ervay.
It run parallel to Main Street.
Mr.Belin. All right, you got in your car shortly after the motorcade passed then?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Sawyer. Well, I headed west, or tried to. I had to wait until the crowd cleared out, and as soon as the crowd cleared enough, I headed west on Main Street.
Mr.Belin. Any particular reason why you headed west on Main Street?
Mr.Sawyer. Because that was the way the car was pointed at the time I got in.
Mr.Belin. All right, then what did you do as you went west on Main Street?
Mr.Sawyer. I just went real slow down the street because of people crossing, and at the time, the radio broadcast came in about a lot of activity down at the lower end around Houston and Elm Street.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember what radio broadcast this is?
Who broadcast it?
Mr.Sawyer. I heard Sheriff Decker come on the radio and tell the dispatcher to get all of his men over to, and I thought he said Texas School Book Depository, but at least that was the overall gist of the conversation. Thatis what I gathered. He may not have said Texas School Book Depository, but the Texas School Book Depository was mentioned in the broadcasts that were made at that time.
Mr.Belin. Was this on Channel 1 or Channel 2 if you remember?
Mr.Sawyer. Channel 2, I am sure.
Mr.Belin. Did Sheriff Decker have any particular call number at all, or not, in your police number system?
Mr.Sawyer. No. I was wondering why he come on our radio, but then I think that he was with Chief Curry and probably using that radio.
Mr.Belin. All right, in any event, a call was made from Chief Curry's car?
Mr.Sawyer. Well, this I don't know either. I don't know what car it was made from, but I think it was Sheriff Decker talking. I could recognize his voice, yes.
Mr.Belin. What did you do then?
Mr.Sawyer. Then I went on down to the Texas Book Depository.
Mr.Belin. Where did you park your car?
Mr.Sawyer. In front of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr.Belin. In front of the main entrance there?
Mr.Sawyer. In front of the main entrance.
Mr.Belin. What did you do then?
Mr.Sawyer. Immediately went into—well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by.
And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor.
And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything.
Mr.Belin. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?
Mr.Sawyer. That's right.
Mr.Belin. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?
Mr.Sawyer. Right.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Sawyer. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.
Mr.Belin. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?
Mr.Sawyer. It was to the right.
Mr.Belin. To the right?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator?
Mr.Sawyer. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator.
Mr.Belin. Did you push for the top button in that elevator?
Mr.Sawyer. Well, I don't know who pushed it, but we went up to the top floor.
Mr.Belin. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to?
Mr.Sawyer. That's right.
Mr.Belin. You got off, and were there officers there?
Mr.Sawyer. There was one or two other officers with me.
Mr.Belin. Now when you got off, you say you went into the back there into a warehouse area?
Mr.Sawyer. Storage area; what appeared to be a storage area.
Mr.Belin. Did you go into any place other than a warehouse or storage area?
Mr.Sawyer. No.
Mr.Belin. Was there anything other than a warehouse or storage area there?
Mr.Sawyer. Well, to one side I could see an office over there with people in it. Some women that apparently were office workers.
Mr.Belin. Now Inspector, what did you do then?
Mr.Sawyer. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.
Mr.Belin. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr.Sawyer. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr.Belin. What about the rear entrance?
Mr.Sawyer. Well, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.
Mr.Belin. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?
Mr.Sawyer. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr.Belin. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let anyone in or out?
Mr.Sawyer. I did.
Mr.Belin. Did you give those instructions before or after you came down from the fourth floor or top floor?
Mr.Sawyer. After I got down.
Mr.Belin. So your procedure, if I understand it, was this. You were driving on Main Street when you heard Sheriff Decker on the radio?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Inspector, to try and reconstruct the time of sealing off the building, I believe you said that before you got to the building, or at about the time you got to the building, you thought that you heard something about the Texas School Book Depository over the radio?
Mr.Sawyer. Right.
Mr.Belin. At least some time before you left your car, is that correct?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes; it would have to be, in order to hear it.
Mr.Belin. Now, I have with me the transcript of the radio log here of November 22, and I notice that, according to the log, at 12:30, and you have examined it, there appears there is a statement by Chief Curry, and then something by Sheriff Decker concerning, well, we'd better call this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, which is a transcript of the radio log, and it reads right now—we will try and restaple it later on—but right now, Page 2 and 3 are reversed insofar as the order is concerned.
You see at 12:28 p.m., on this exhibit Curry calls in that they are near the triple underpass, and then at 12:30 p.m., it says, "Station Break," is that right?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Then the next thing that goes on, it is Number 1, which is Chief Curry's number, am I correct in that?
Mr.Sawyer. Right.
Mr.Belin. Then according to the transcript, the statement is made—you might just read it here in front of you: "Go to the hospital, officers, Parkland Hospital, have them stand by. Get men on top of the underpass, see what happened up there, go up to the overpass. Have Parkland stand by."
You see these words here, Inspector Sawyer?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Then on a continuation, "Dallas-1," which is marked in by someone as Sheriff Decker says: "I'm sure it's going to take some time to get your men in there. Put every one of my men there."
Then there is a call back to Curry from 531, which is your home station, is that correct?
Mr.Sawyer. That's right.
I really didn't quite understand all of it.
Mr.Belin. Then Curry is quoted as saying: "Notify Station 5 to move all men available out of my department back into the railroad yard and try to determine what happened and hold everything secure until homicide and other investigators can get in there."
Mr.Sawyer. That is Decker speaking there.
Mr.Belin. That is Decker?
Mr.Sawyer. That's right.
Mr.Belin. You believe that is what Decker said?
Mr.Sawyer. That is what he said, yes, that's right.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Sawyer. His number is Dallas-1, and they are talking to 1. They have that confused.
Mr.Belin. Well, Curry is 1 also?
Mr.Sawyer. That's right.
Mr.Belin. But I think they were riding in the same car?
Mr.Sawyer. That might be correct, but this is actually Decker's voice here, and that is what he had to say.
Mr.Belin. Well, then, the comment is made "Notify Station 5——"
Mr.Sawyer. That is the Sheriff's Office.
Mr.Belin. "To move all men available out of my Department back into the railroad yard——"
And that you feel is Decker talking because of the reference to Station 5?
Mr.Sawyer. Also, my memory serves that it was his voice that made that.
Mr.Belin. All right, then, at 12:31, is a notation there that quotes, "It looks like the President has been hit."
Then there doesn't appear to be anything pertaining to where the shots might have come from until we see at 12:34, there is a call from officer, it says No. 136, that states, "A passer-by states the shots came from Texas School Book Depository Building.
This is the first reference in the log about the Texas School Book Depository, is that correct?
Mr.Sawyer. That's correct.
Mr.Belin. Do you feel that you heard in your car some reference to the Texas School Book Depository building?
Mr.Sawyer. I do.
Mr.Belin. Would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at least completely left your car by 12:34 p.m?
Mr.Sawyer. Correct.
Mr.Belin. Then when you got to the Texas School Book Depository, well, you got out of the car and talked to some people or to some officers?
Mr.Sawyer. Officers.
Mr.Belin. And then what did the officers tell you?
Mr.Sawyer. That their information was that the shots had come from the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr.Belin. Did any officers give you any other information about the source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the Texas School Book Depository, at that particular time?
Mr.Sawyer. I can't say whether it was officers or who, but there was a reference also made to the overpass.
Mr.Belin. All right, in any event—pardon me, do you have anything else to add?
Mr.Sawyer. Also, there was a broadcast here in the transcript about the railroad yard.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Sawyer. And this could be part of what I was thinking about, or what I had heard, was this broadcast on the radio about the railroad yard.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do? You went inside the building, is that correct?
Mr.Sawyer. We immediately went inside the building. I took—I believe Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that.
Mr.Belin. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down?
Mr.Sawyer. Best of my recollection, it was there.
Mr.Belin. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there.
How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to?
Mr.Sawyer. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr.Belin. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr.Sawyer. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr.Belin. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr.Sawyer. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr.Belin. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr.Sawyer. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building.
To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
Mr.Belin. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
Mr.Sawyer. That's right.
Mr.Belin. All right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that were there?
Even before you instructed them?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes, because they were looking for something or anything, and I know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too.
Mr.Belin. What happened at the front door now. There were people standing out on the area of the steps, were there not?
Mr.Sawyer. No. There were some people around, yes.
Mr.Belin. Do you know whether or not any of those would have been stopped?
Mr.Sawyer. For sure, no; I don't.
Mr.Belin. Now after you got down and you issued these orders, then what did you do?
Mr.Sawyer. I set up a command post in front. The various officers were bringing up different witnesses who had seen various things, and I saw that this was quite an involved situation. It was so many of these people that had information, that I knew I didn't have time to take this information down, and by this time several deputy sheriffs were standing there, and one of them, I think he was a supervisor, I had his name at one time, I can't think of it now, was there, and he offered the use of an interrogation room of Sheriff Decker's office, I think he said, for interrogating these people.
Mr.Belin. That is located down the street a little bit there?
Mr.Sawyer. Well, it is catty-corner across the street.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Sawyer. It is southeast across the street from the Texas School Book Depository, at least from the corner, and so we set up a group of officers and deputy sheriffs who were to take charge of the witnesses and take them over to see that affidavits were taken from them.
They were more or less an escort service so the witness wouldn't get away.
And then as our detectives began to show up, I sent them over to the Sheriff's Office to assist in taking these depositions or affidavits.
Mr.Belin. How many witnesses were there around there during this period of time that you talked to?
Mr.Sawyer. Well, during the entire period of time that I was there, I would venture to say between 25 to 50 different people had come up with information of one kind or another.
Mr.Belin. Now, on this radio log, Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, do younotice your number there for any calls at all that might have come in? What number did you use?
Mr.Sawyer. I used No. 9. That is my regular call No. 9.
Mr.Belin. I notice here a No. 9, the first time that appears to come in here is at 12:40 p.m.; is that right?
Mr.Sawyer. That is the first one after 12:40, sir.
Mr.Belin. The first one after 12:30?
Mr.Sawyer. The first one after 12:30, yes, that is true.
Mr.Belin. Then at 12:40, there is a bunch of calls at 12:40, with the next call number at 12:43, so you assume sometime 12:40 and 12:43 you, as No. 9, called in, is that correct?
Mr.Sawyer. That's correct.
Mr.Belin. Would you read what it says that you said there?
Mr.Sawyer. "We need more manpower down here at the Texas Book Depository; there should be a bunch on Main if somebody can pick them up and bring them down here."
Mr.Belin. Was that said before or after you came down from the elevator?
Mr.Sawyer. That was after.
Mr.Belin. Was that before or after you told the men there to guard the front door and not let anyone in or out?
Mr.Sawyer. That was after.
Mr.Belin. Now the next time that No. 9 appears is at what time?
Mr.Sawyer. Immediately after 12:43 and before 12:45.
Mr.Belin. What did you say then?
Mr.Sawyer. "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester."
Mr.Belin. Then the statement is made from the home office, "It was a rifle?"
Mr.Sawyer. I answered, "Yes, a rifle."
Mr.Belin. Then the reply to you, "Any clothing description?"
Mr.Sawyer. "Current witness can't remember that."
Mr.Belin. Then the statement is made sometime before 12:45 p.m., and after the 12:43 p.m., call, "Attention all squads, description was broadcast and no further information at this time."
Does that mean the description you made was rebroadcast?
Mr.Sawyer. I rebroadcast that description. That is what that means.
Mr.Belin. I then notice on this radio log—I don't see anything more under 9, at least until after the, well, it is down until we have gone as far as 1:30 p.m., I don't see anything else, do you, sir?
Mr.Sawyer. No. There is another broadcast in there somewhere, though. I put out another description on the colored boy that worked in that department.
Mr.Belin. What do you mean the colored boy that worked in that depository?
Mr.Sawyer. He is one that had a previous record in the narcotics, and he was supposed to have been a witness to the man being on that floor. He was supposed to have been a witness to Oswald being there.
Mr.Belin. Would Charles Givens have been that boy?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes, I think that is the name, and I put out a description on him.
Mr.Belin. How do you know he was supposed to be a witness on that?
Mr.Sawyer. Somebody told me that. Somebody came to me with the information. And again, that particular party, whoever it was, I don't know. I remember that a deputy sheriff came up to me who had been over taking these affidavits, that I sent them over there, and he came over from the sheriff's office with a picture and a description of this colored boy and he said that he was supposed to have worked at the Texas Book Depository, and he was the one employee who was missing, or he was missing from the building.
He wasn't accounted for, and that he was suppose to have some information about the man that did the shooting.
Mr.Belin. When you say about the man who did the shooting, did you know at that time who did the shooting?
Mr.Sawyer. No.
Mr.Belin. Do you know about what time in the afternoon this was?
Mr.Sawyer. Somewhere along in here; let's see if we can't find it.
Mr.Belin. This doesn't go past 1:53 p.m.
Mr.Sawyer. What about your other transcript?
Mr.Belin. I have a transcript of another one here, at least I did have.