Mr.Sawyer. I think we caught the man in the crowd later and sent him down.
We sent him directly down to Captain Fritz's office.
Mr.Belin. Well, just a minute now. I see here on No. 1, you have two channels there.
Mr.Sawyer. This is Channel 1, yes.
Mr.Belin. We will call this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit B.
I see here that you go on at 12:45 p.m., with this statement by your No. 9. You want to read it?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes.
"From this building it is unknown if he is still there or not. Unknown if he was there in the first place."
Mr.Belin. Then it reads back here, "All the information we have received, indicates it did come from the fifth or fourth of that building."
That is the central headquarters back to you, is that it?
Mr.Sawyer. That's right.
Mr.Belin. That is at least after 12:45 p.m., and before 12:48 p.m.?
Mr.Sawyer. Right.
Mr.Belin. Now looking down on this log until the next time your number appears, is 1:12 p.m. What does that say?
Mr.Sawyer. "We have found empty rifle hulls on the fifth floor and from all indications the man had been there for some time."
Mr.Belin. Then is there anything else?
Mr.Sawyer. This was reported to me by somebody inside the building.
Mr.Belin. That was at 1:12 p.m., that the hulls were found, or at least shortly prior to that? This doesn't say anything else. It apparently doesn't go in detail much past 1:58 p.m., on Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B, and 1:53 p.m., on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A.
Mr.Sawyer. That's right.
Mr.Belin. Do you still feel sometime after that you might have called out another description?
Mr.Sawyer. It was another, sometime after that, or it has been left out of this. I don't think it has been left out of this, but it must have been after 1:53.
Mr.Belin. All right, now, sir; you did broadcast that description out of this man?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes, that's correct.
Mr.Belin. That shows on the radio log. Where did you get that description from?
Mr.Sawyer. We are talking now about the colored man?
Mr.Belin. No, I am talking about the one that is on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, that shows you at 12:43.
Mr.Sawyer. That description came to me mainly from one witness who claimed to have seen the rifle barrel in the fifth or sixth floor of the building, and claimed to have been able to see the man up there.
Mr.Belin. Do you know this person's name?
Mr.Sawyer. I do not.
Mr.Belin. Do you know anything about him, what he was wearing?
Mr.Sawyer. Except that he was—I don't remember what he was wearing. I remember that he was a white man and that he wasn't young and he wasn't old. He was there. That is the only two things that I can remember about him.
Mr.Belin. What age would you categorize as young?
Mr.Sawyer. Around 35 would be my best recollection of it, but it could be a few years either way.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember if he was tall or short, or can't you remember anything about him?
Mr.Sawyer. I can't remember that much about him. I was real hazy about that.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember where he said he was standing when he saw the person with the rifle?
Mr.Sawyer. I didn't go into detail with him except that from the best of my recollection, he was standing where he could have seen him. But there were too many people coming up with questions to go into detail. I got the description and sent him on over to the Sheriff's Office.
Mr.Belin. Inspector, do you remember anything else about this person who you say gave you the primary description?
Mr.Sawyer. No, I do not, except that I did send him with an escort to the Sheriff's Office to give fuller or more complete detail.
Mr.Belin. Do you know if he was taken there to see a lineup at the police station?
Mr.Sawyer. No.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever see him again?
Mr.Sawyer. Not to my knowledge.
Mr.Belin. Now, you talked to other people there that said they had some information with regard to where the shots may have come from?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes, through a number of people.
Mr.Belin. First I am going to ask you if you talked to any other people who said they saw a rifle or part of a rifle?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes. There were a few who claimed that they had seen this.
Mr.Belin. Where did these people that claimed they saw a rifle or part of arifle——
Mr.Sawyer. The ones that I talked to were pointing out one of the upper floors of the Texas School Book Depository, which at that time I thought was the fifth floor.
Mr.Belin. Do you know what portion, what side of the building it was?
Was it the northeast corner or west side of the building?
Mr.Sawyer. It was on the south side of the building, and in the southeast corner.
Mr.Belin. What about this person, who I will call the primary description witness, did he say what side of the building it was on?
Mr.Sawyer. He went and pointed out the window which I now note to be the sixth floor, but when I talked to him, I thought it was the fifth floor.
Mr.Belin. The fifth floor?
Mr.Sawyer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What side of the building?
Mr.Sawyer. On the south side of the building, and the southeast corner.
Mr.Belin. Did you talk to any witness, or did any witness talk to you who claimed to see any rifle or portion of a rifle at any place other than a window of Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Sawyer. No, didany——
Mr.Belin. Did any officer give you any information about talking to anyone who saw a rifle or a portion of a rifle at any place other than a window in the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Sawyer. No, not to my knowledge.
Mr.Belin. Did you talk to people who attempted to locate the shots on the basis of what I would call their sense of hearing, rather than their sense of sight?
In other words, what they heard rather than what they saw?
Mr.Sawyer. Correct. That is correct. Some of them claimed that they had heard shots, or thought they heard shots from over the overpass.
Mr.Belin. Did all the people you talked to say that they heard shots over the overpass? Claim they had some knowledge about where the shots came from?
Did they all say they heard shots from the overpass, or did they say they heard some from other places?
Mr.Sawyer. No. Very few said they heard the shots come from the overpass, or thought they heard them from that area.
Mr.Belin. Well, where did other people say they heard shots come from?
Mr.Sawyer. Most of the people that heard the shots pointed out the Texas Book Depository.
Mr.Belin. Did some of the people that heard shots, or thought they heard shots from the Texas School Book Depository, all say they saw a rifle there?
Mr.Sawyer. No.
Mr.Belin. Most of them say they saw a rifle there?
Mr.Sawyer. No, just a few, very few.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything else you can think of that occurred at the Texas School Book Depository that afternoon while you were there that might have any relevancy about where the shots came from, other than what you have told thus far?
Mr.Sawyer. Well, I had heard some of the officers come to me and said there was supposed to be, somebody told them about a woman that had taken some pictures of that window, and then one of the sergeants came to me, and I am not sure who the sergeant is now, but anyway he said that there was on the building immediately west—east, I am sorry—east of the Texas School Book Depository, that a man up in one of the upper windows up there was taking some moving pictures of what had gone on.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever contact this man? Do you know what his name is?
Mr.Sawyer. No; I don't know his name. The sergeant told me that the man would not give them the pictures, that he was waiting for the Secret Service or the FBI, I forget which now, and I sent the sergeant and two men back over there with instructions to bring that man and his pictures to me.
When they got back over there, Forrest Sorrels of the Secret Service was already there, and at least they so reported back to me, and was talking to this man.
So I told them to go ahead with their normal assignments and since Forrest was already there and talking to him, I knew that that part would be taken care of.
Mr.Belin. You don't know what his name was or what the results of it was?
Mr.Sawyer. I don't know.
Mr.Belin. Anything else?
Mr.Sawyer. Later that afternoon one of our colored officer detectives saw this colored man in this crowd across the street and we had previously broadcast a description on, and he took him into custody and sent him immediately down to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr.Belin. He gave a statement, is that it?
Mr.Sawyer. This I don't know. I presume he did, but I didn't stop to talk to him or take any information.
I just sent him on down there.
Mr.Belin. Anything else you can think of at this time?
Mr.Sawyer. No.
Mr.Belin. You spent most of the afternoon out in front of the building there?
Mr.Sawyer. I spent most of the afternoon up until 4 o'clock.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Sawyer. I went back down to the City Hall and checked around there to see if anything further I could do, and then I went home.
Mr.Belin. What did you do on Saturday, the 23d? Anything that has to do with the assassination or the investigation of the Tippit murder?
Mr.Sawyer. No. I happened to be off on Saturday, and I didn't go back down. The boss didn't call me, so I stayed home.
Mr.Belin. What about Sunday?
Mr.Sawyer. Same thing. In fact, I didn't even hear about the other thing until way late in the afternoon.
Mr.Belin. Is there any other information that you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that might be in any way relevant here?
Mr.Sawyer. The only other thing I can remember that I did down there, waswhen the shooting on Officer Tippit came in, I released half a dozen men to go to Oak Cliff to help with that.
Mr.Belin. Inspector, is there anything else that you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant here?
Mr.Sawyer. I can't think of anything.
Mr.Belin. Sir, we certainly appreciate your cooperation in coming down here.
You have a right, if you would like, after this report is typewritten, to read it and sign it before it is sent to us, or you can waive the reading of it and have it sent to us directly.
It doesn't make a bit of difference to us.
Mr.Sawyer. Whichever you prefer. It doesn't make any difference to me.
I would like to read it.
Mr.Belin. Why don't we say you read it and sign it, and it will be sent to us.
Mr.Sawyer. Okay.
The testimony of Gerald Dalton Henslee was taken at 4 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Belin. Sergeant, do you want to stand and raise your right hand, please, to be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Henslee. I do.
Mr.Belin. Will you please state your name.
Mr.Henslee. Gerald Dalton Henslee.
Mr.Belin. Your occupation?
Mr.Henslee. A police officer.
Mr.Belin. For what police department?
Mr.Henslee. City of Dallas.
Mr.Belin. How long have you been a police officer?
Mr.Henslee. 16 years.
Mr.Belin. You are a sergeant now?
Mr.Henslee. Sergeant.
Mr.Belin. What did you do before you became a police officer?
Mr.Henslee. I was a student in SMU.
Mr.Belin. At SMU?
Mr.Henslee. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Prior to that time?
Mr.Henslee. I was a dance instructor at the Arthur Murray Dance Studio.
Mr.Belin. And prior to that?
Mr.Henslee. I was in the United States Army.
Mr.Belin. Honorable discharge, sir?
Mr.Henslee. Yes.
Mr.Belin. How old are you?
Mr.Henslee. 40.
Mr.Belin. Married?
Mr.Henslee. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Sergeant, what were your duties on November 22, 1963?
Mr.Henslee. I was supervising the radio dispatcher's office at the Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Belin. Could you just describe your duties there as to what they included?
Mr.Henslee. Well, in this instance, I was not only supervising the channel 1 radio and the incoming radio calls, but was the police dispatcher for channel 2, covering the special event of the arrival of the President of the United States, President Kennedy.
Mr.Belin. What were your hours of work that day?
Mr.Henslee. My assigned hours?
Mr.Belin. Yes.
Mr.Henslee. 6:30 until 2 p.m. 6:30 a.m. until 2:30 p.m.
Mr.Belin. Did you stay on after that?
Mr.Henslee. I stayed until about 5:30, as I recall, approximately.
Mr.Belin. You mentioned channel 2. How many channels do you have?
Mr.Henslee. Two channels.
Mr.Belin. Was channel 2 being used for the motorcade that day?
Mr.Henslee. Yes.
Mr.Belin. I am going to hand you what has been marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, and ask you to state if you know what this is?
Mr.Henslee. Yes. This is a transcript of the radio log of that date.
Mr.Belin. For what channel?
Mr.Henslee. Channel 2.
Mr.Belin. Covering from?
Mr.Henslee. From 10:25 a.m., until 1:53 p.m.
Mr.Belin. Now I notice on the covering page it says that: "The following was recorded on channel 2, from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. This report includes information prior to the arrival of the President's plane, progress of the motorcade, the shooting, and the escort to Parkland Hospital. Also included are events concerning the shooting of Officer Tippit."
Mr.Henslee. That is correct.
Mr.Belin. Have you attempted to cover all calls that occurred that day or just the calls pertaining to the subject matter that is included in the covering paragraph.
Mr.Henslee. Pertaining to the subject matter, to the covering paragraph only.
Mr.Belin. All right, I hand you what has been marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B, and ask you to state if you know what this is?
Mr.Henslee. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What is Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B?
Mr.Henslee. That is a transmission pertaining to the shooting of President Kennedy and Officer Tippit on channel 1.
Mr.Belin. All right, I notice times on Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B. Does this mean a time according to your police clock there when an event happened?
Mr.Henslee. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. For instance, on Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, I see until 12:40 p.m., a number of conversations. Then the next one is 12:43 p.m. Does that mean that all the conversations took place between 12:40 and 12:43 p.m.?
Mr.Henslee. That's correct.
Mr.Belin. They took place in the order in which they are listed here?
Mr.Henslee. Right. There were so many, we couldn't get the time in after each transmission.
Mr.Belin. Who prepared Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B, if you know?
Mr.Henslee. Well, I am pretty sure these are the ones I prepared. They are copies of them.
Mr.Belin. Do you know from what source they were prepared?
Mr.Henslee. They were prepared from the tapes on the channel 1. We have a tape on channel 1, and we have a record on channel 2. Two separate tape records, but they are prepared from those records and tapes.
Mr.Belin. Under your supervision?
Mr.Henslee. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. I notice numbers here. For instance, I see on Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, the No. 531 often appears. Would that be your call number?
Mr.Henslee. This designates the radio dispatcher.
Mr.Belin. Then I see the number here, No. 1 sometimes appears. Who is that?
Mr.Henslee. That is the number assigned to Chief J. E. Curry.
Mr.Belin. I see a No. 9. Who is No. 9?
Mr.Henslee. That is the number assigned to Inspector J. H. Sawyer.
Mr.Belin. Different numbers are assigned to different people?
Mr.Henslee. Yes.
Mr.Belin. If an officer is patrolling a district, does he have the number assigned to a district if he is not a high officer in the Department?
Mr.Henslee. That's correct.
Mr.Belin. For instance, I see the No. 78 here. Does that appear to be the number of J. D. Tippit?
Mr.Henslee. On that particular day it was.
Mr.Belin. All right, anything else you can think of, Sergeant, that might be relevant to the investigation into the assassination of the President or the shooting of Officer Tippit?
Mr.Henslee. No. The only thing I have is what I observed over the police radio that day. That is all the knowledge I have at all.
Mr.Belin. All right, sir; we thank you very much for your cooperation.
One other thing, you have the right to read this deposition and sign it before it goes into Washington, or else you can waive the reading and have it go directly to Washington.
Do you have any preference?
Mr.Henslee. Yes, I would like to read it before I sign it.
Mr.Belin. That is all right. It makes no difference to us. And again, we thank you.
Mr.Henslee. What else can I do for you?
The testimony of William H. Shelley was taken at 4:10 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn?
(Witness complying.)
Mr.Ball. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give here today will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Sit down and state your name and your address.
Mr.Shelley. William Hoyt (spelling) Shelley, 126 South Tatum, Dallas 11.
Mr.Ball. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were bornand——
Mr.Shelley. I was born at Gunter, Tex.
Mr.Ball. What is your education?
Mr.Shelley. High school.
Mr.Ball. What have you been doing since then?
Mr.Shelley. I worked in defense plants a little bit during the war and started working at the Texas School Book Depository October 29, 1945.
Mr.Ball. (After leaving room for last answer, Mr. Ball returns.) Did you tell her all about yourself?
Mr.Shelley. You wanted to know when I was born.
Mr.Ball. You told us that, and you had your high school education?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What kind of work have you done since then?
Mr.Shelley. I've told her.
Mr.Ball. How long have you worked at Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Shelley. She already has it, October 29, 1945.
Mr.Ball. October 29, 1945—steady since that date?
Mr.Shelley. Oh, yes.
Mr.Ball. In November 1963, what was your job down there?
Mr.Shelley. Well, I am manager of the miscellaneous department and have been for several years.
Mr.Ball. Who is your immediate superior?
Mr.Shelley. Roy S. Truly.
Mr.Ball. What is his job?
Mr.Shelley. He is superintendent of the place.
Mr.Ball. Did you know Lee Oswald?
Mr.Shelley. He worked for me.
Mr.Ball. What kind of work did he do for you?
Mr.Shelley. He did good work.
Mr.Ball. What?
Mr.Shelley. He did good work.
Mr.Ball. What was it?
Mr.Shelley. Order filling.
Mr.Ball. As an order filler did he have access to any more than one floor?
Mr.Shelley. Oh, yes.
Mr.Ball. How many floors?
Mr.Shelley. Just about any of them outside the offices.
Mr.Ball. Were there certain floors that he worked more upon which he worked more frequently than other floors?
Mr.Shelley. The first floor is where all the order filling is done; the 5th, 6th, 7th floor are used for storage and when they need stock on the first floor anybody goes up and gets it.
Mr.Ball. So he would work mostly on the first floor and sometimes on 5, 6, and 7, is that what you mean?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever talk to him?
Mr.Shelley. Not too much; he wasn't too talkative. If I had something I wanted him to do, I would tell him and he usually did it.
Mr.Ball. His work was satisfactory?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. On the 22d of November 1963, did you see him come to work that morning?
Mr.Shelley. No, he was at work when I got there already filling orders.
Mr.Ball. Did you see him from time to time during that day?
Mr.Shelley. I am sure I did. I do remember seeing him when I came down to eat lunch about 10 to 12.
Mr.Ball. Where had you been working?
Mr.Shelley. I had been on the sixth floor with the boys laying that floor that morning.
Mr.Ball. What time did you go down and eat lunch?
Mr.Shelley. It was around 10 'til.
Mr.Ball. Did you eat your lunch?
Mr.Shelley. No, I started eating.
Mr.Ball. Where did you start eating it?
Mr.Shelley. In my office next to Mr. Truly's and I ate part of it which I do usually and finish up later on in the day but I went outside then to the front.
Mr.Ball. Why did you go to the front?
Mr.Shelley. Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.
Mr.Ball. And who was out there?
Mr.Shelley. Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.
Mr.Ball. You were standing where?
Mr.Shelley. Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr.Ball. That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you see the motorcade pass?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What did you hear?
Mr.Shelley. Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together.
Mr.Ball. And then?
Mr.Shelley. I didn't think anything about it.
Mr.Ball. What did it sound like to you?
Mr.Shelley. Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr.Ball. What happened; what did you do then?
Mr.Shelley. I didn't do anything for a minute.
Mr.Ball. What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound?
Mr.Shelley. Sounded like it came from the west.
Mr.Ball. It sounded like it came from the west?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Then what happened?
Mr.Shelley. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr.Ball. Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Shelley. That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street.
Mr.Ball. It dead ends?
Mr.Shelley. There's concrete between the two streets.
Mr.Ball. Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't it?
Mr.Shelley. Well, that's also Elm that goes under the triple underpass.
Mr.Ball. That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, where they split.
Mr.Ball. You went out there and then what did you do?
Mr.Shelley. Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way.
Mr.Ball. How did you get down that way; what course did you take?
Mr.Shelley. We walked down the middle of the little street.
Mr.Ball. The dead-end street?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr.Shelley. Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr.Ball. While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr.Shelley. It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr.Ball. She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. The Vice President hadn't gone by, had he, by your place?
Mr.Shelley. I don't know. I didn't recognize him. I did recognize Mr. Kennedy and his suntan I had been hearing about.
Mr.Ball. How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr.Shelley. We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr.Ball. And Truly?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you see them go into the building?
Mr.Shelley. No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.
Mr.Ball. Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr.Shelley. Well, they were moving, yes.
Mr.Ball. Were they running?
Mr.Shelley. That, I couldn't swear to; there were so many people around.
Mr.Ball. What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr.Shelley. We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr.Ball. At the west end?
Mr.Shelley. Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
Mr.Ball. When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr.Shelley. I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr.Ball. What was he doing?
Mr.Shelley. He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr.Ball. Of the first floor of the building?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Who else did you see?
Mr.Shelley. That's all we saw immediately.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see Vickie Adams?
Mr.Shelley. I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her.
Mr.Ball. You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back?
Mr.Shelley. It was after we entered the building.
Mr.Ball. You think you did see her after you entered the building?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.
Mr.Ball. Now, did the police come into the building?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast.
Mr.Ball. Did you go with them any place?
Mr.Shelley. Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.
Mr.Ball. Did you go up on the sixth floor?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Were you there when they found anything up there?
Mr.Shelley. I was, I believe I was on the sixth floor when they found the gun but we were searching all parts of that floor.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you find any chicken bones up there or see any?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, I went up later on that day; I believe after we had gotten back from City Hall with someone, I don't remember who it was, one of the officers and they got them.
Mr.Ball. They did what?
Mr.Shelley. They got the bones.
Mr.Ball. Where were they?
Mr.Shelley. They were on the third—yeah, it would be the third window from the southeast corner.
Mr.Ball. And were they in a sack?
Mr.Shelley. Laying on a sack.
Mr.Ball. Laying on a sack.
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir; with a coke bottle sitting in the window.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any other chicken bones anyplace around there?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir; that's all.
Mr.Ball. That's the only ones?
Mr.Shelley. That's all.
Mr.Ball. Did you see anybody eating fried chicken on that floor that morning?
Mr.Shelley. At one time I think I said I did but Charles Givens was theguy that was eating and he was further on over toward the west side and he was eating a sandwich so he says.
Mr.Ball. Now you say that you thought that you had seen someone had eaten fried chicken that morning?
Mr.Shelley. I thought I had; those colored boys are always eating chicken.
Mr.Ball. Do you think you did or do you know?
Mr.Shelley. I asked Charles Givens whether it was him that was eating and he said it was a sandwich.
Mr.Ball. Was that before you went down for lunch?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir; it was pretty early in the morning, about 9:30.
Mr.Ball. Where was it?
Mr.Shelley. It was two-thirds across the building toward the west because I didn't put plywood over there and he didn't get too far from where we were actually working.
Mr.Ball. After you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot?
Mr.Shelley. Yeah.
Mr.Ball. You were still standing there?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Then you went out across Elm?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, to the divider.
Mr.Ball. Between the two Elm Streets?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you run out to the point or walk out?
Mr.Shelley. I believe we trotted out there.
Mr.Ball. Did you stay very long?
Mr.Shelley. Oh, it wasn't very long.
Mr.Ball. How long?
Mr.Shelley. Maybe a minute or two.
Mr.Ball. And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, uh-huh.
Mr.Ball. Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. That's about what distance?
Mr.Shelley. Approximately 100 yards.
Mr.Ball. Did you trot, run or walk?
Mr.Shelley. We were walking but it was a pretty fast walk.
Mr.Ball. Did you stay there any length of time?
Mr.Shelley. Not very long.
Mr.Ball. How long would you say?
Mr.Shelley. I wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half.
Mr.Ball. Then you went back to the building?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you trot or run back to the building?
Mr.Shelley. We just walked back; took our good, old easy time more or less.
Mr.Ball. Then you went into the west end?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?
Mr.Shelley. I sure don't remember.
Mr.Ball. You don't.
Mr.Shelley. No.
Mr.Ball. Did Oswald use a clipboard?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. On which he kept his orders?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Is it a clipboard you gave him to use orone——
Mr.Shelley. It's one he picked up.
Mr.Ball. Picked up where?
Mr.Shelley. Just laying around.
Mr.Ball. There are clipboards that the order fillers use there?
Mr.Shelley. Yeah, some of them are on bakelite and some we just use a clip and maybe a piece of cardboard.
Mr.Ball. Did he use the same one at all times?
Mr.Shelley. Yes; as far as I know.
Mr.Ball. Now at a later time do you remember a clipboard being found?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you know who found it?
Mr.Shelley. Frankie Kaiser.
Mr.Ball. Where did he find it?
Mr.Shelley. He found it on the sixth floor in the corner of the stairway.
Mr.Ball. Did he show you the place?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Point it out to you?
Mr.Shelley. Yes; so I invited Mr.Pinkston——
Mr.Ball. Mr. who?
Mr.Shelley. Pinkston of the FBI.
Mr.Ball. Did he come out and get the clipboard?
Mr.Shelley. Yes; he got it.
Mr.Ball. But Frankie Kaiser pointed it out to you, did he?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you called the FBI and pointed it out to him?
Mr.Shelley. He was down there at the time and I told him about it and he and Frankie and I went up and got it.
Mr.Ball. Do you know what date?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir; that, I sure couldn't tell you. It was the following week though, I am pretty sure.
Mr.Ball. You mean after the 22d, the following, you say, the 22d of November?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you examine that clipboard?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you examine it to see whether or not there was on the clipboard any orders?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Unfilled orders?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir; there were some invoices on it.
Mr.Ball. Were you able to identify those invoices and state to whom they had been assigned to fill?
Mr.Shelley. They were Scott, Foresman invoices.
Mr.Ball. Scott, Foresman invoices?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir; and he filled mostly Scott, Foresman orders.
Mr.Ball. Who is "he"?
Mr.Shelley. Oswald.
Mr.Ball. Oswald filled mostly Scott, Foresman orders?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. That is Foresman [spelling]?
Mr.Shelley. Foresman [spelling].
Mr.Ball. Was there any other order filler who filled Scott, Foresman invoices?
Mr.Shelley. Any of the other boys would if they ran out of other publishers' orders. When I get those orders, I sort them according to publishers and during rush season like that, usually, have one guy sticking as close to one publisher as he can because skipping back and forth you have different codes and everything and it is confusing to them.
Mr.Ball. So, in the morning would you have assigned all Scott, Foresman to Oswald on that Friday morning?
Mr.Shelley. He already had the orders and was working when I got there.
Mr.Ball. He had?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Who would determine what orders they would get?
Mr.Shelley. When we run out of orders they get to one of the boxes and get orders for Scott, Foresman. He had been trained for Scott, Foresman.
Mr.Ball. Would orders be assigned the day before?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir; we don't definitely assign them to anyone. The boys know what they can fill best and as long as they are putting the workout——
Mr.Ball. I want to know how a man working on Scott, Foresman—suppose Oswald came to work on Friday morning, tell me what routine he would follow, where he would get the orders he was to fill.
Mr.Shelley. He would go over to the order desk and get them out of a box marked Scott, Foresman.
Mr.Ball. They would have Scott, Foresman on it?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Is he the only one that in the morning when he came to work would get the orders out of the box marked Scott, Foresman?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir; if there wasn't any orders in any of the other boxes any other order filler would take them.
Mr.Ball. Do you know whether or not he was filling Scott, Foresman orders that day?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir; not for sure.
Mr.Ball. Do you know whether anybody else was filling Scott, Foresman orders that day?
Mr.Shelley. I am sure they were; that's our biggest publishers; there's more of them.
Mr.Ball. Then you believe others besides Oswald were filling Scott, Foresman orders that day?
Mr.Shelley. Probably were.
Mr.Ball. Is there any way you can determine what order filler had that clipboard?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. On November 22, 1963?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir; it's one that looked like the one he had used.
Mr.Ball. It did look like the one he had used?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. There were how many unfilled orders on that clipboard when it was found?
Mr.Shelley. Two or three, best I remember.
Mr.Ball. Did you keep a list of them?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did anybody make a list of them?
Mr.Shelley. Not unless Mr. Pinkston did.
Mr.Ball. Mr. Pinkston of the FBI?
Mr.Shelley. Yes; he called in about the thing and in a little while he released it and said go ahead and fill the orders which we did because they were several days old.
Mr.Ball. You mean those orders that were on that clipboard had never been filled?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. So you went ahead and filled them?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. How do you spell his name—Pinkston?
Mr.Shelley. I don't know how to spell it. Mr. Pinkston is all I know.
Mr.Ball. Pinkston, okay. I think that's all, Mr. Shelley. Thanks very much. This will be written up and you can come down and read it and sign it or we can waive signature; which would you rather do?
Mr.Shelley. I suppose it doesn't make any difference. What are the others doing?
Mr.Ball. Some waived, some insist on reading it; which would you rather do?
Mr.Shelley. I would kind of like to see it for curiosity.
Mr.Ball. Come down and sign it, all right. Where was the clipboard found?
Mr.Shelley. On the sixth floor in the far corner.
Mr.Ball. Which corner?
Mr.Shelley. By the stairway.
Mr.Ball. That would be the northwest?
Mr.Shelley. Northwest, yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. All right, fine. Thank you very much, Mr. Shelley.