Mr.Adams. Was this in Mrs. Kennedy's presence?
Mr.O'Brien. I recall this conversation took place just outside those swinging doors with the glass panels. And I would—I believe, therefore, that she did not hear this conversation.
Mr.Adams. Now, at the time the coffin was wheeled into the emergency room, what did Mrs. Kennedy do? Did she enter at that time, or at any time, so far as you recall?
Mr.O'Brien. My recollection is that she did enter the room, but I don't recall it was at that time, and I am not sure what specific time.
Mr.Adams. Well, going back to this official who said the body could not be removed—you were present at that time with Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. Powers?
Mr.O'Brien. Yes.
Mr.Adams. And what happened with respect to that discussion?
Mr.O'Brien. Well, Dr. Burkley, the President's physician, entered into that discussion. And as I recall he and this official went into a little room just outside these doors and carried on further discussion that seemed to involve members of the hospital staff and others. And the discussion went on for a period of several minutes. Burkley—Dr. Burkley was quite exercised. It was apparent that this fellow was not going to—he was going to be adamant in his position. And very soon another official arrived on the scene that was described to me as a judge.
Mr.Adams. Does the name Brown refresh your recollection?
Mr.O'Brien. I don't know as I heard his name. But he was then described as the judge—a judge, and the indication was that he, therefore, was in a higher position of authority than the other official that had been carrying on this discussion with Dr. Burkley.
He was equally adamant. The reference was made, either specifically by him or by someone in the official group, that this had to be treated as just another homicide, and that no other—no special considerations could be given to the problem. That, of course, increased our concern about Mrs. Kennedy, who said she would not leave her husband, and that we could envision Mrs. Kennedy in that state in the hospital for hours or even longer. So, therefore, it was our determination that the President should be taken from the hospital.
Mr.Adams. This was the determination of you, Mr. O'Donnell, and Dr. Burkley?
Mr.O'Brien. That is right.
Mr.Adams. Then what happened?
Mr.O'Brien. The casket was brought out from the emergency room, wheeled out through these two folding doors. And the members of the Secret Service gathered around it. They had made a determination on their own as to the exit. An ambulance was waiting. Preparations had been made by the Secret Service to accomplish this. And we all—Mr. O'Donnell, Mr. Powers and I, General McHugh, and two or three members of the Secret Service proceeded to push the coffin down this corridor.
My recollection is that objections were still being raised by some or all officials. My recollection is also that we paid little heed to it.
Mr.Adams. These were vigorous objections, I gather.
Mr.O'Brien. I would say they were. And the only very minor problem that occurred in reaching the exit was that the priest who was third in point of arrival was still present. The other two priests had departed after expressing their condolences to Mrs. Kennedy. But this priest was standing in the corridor and was rather insistent that he formalize some prayers at that point. And I suggested to him that he step aside. Our concern still was whether or not there was going to be an effective block put in our way.
Mr.Adams. And who accompanied Mrs. Kennedy at that time?
Mr.O'Brien. I believe in the grouping behind the casket that at one time Mr. O'Donnell, another time me, and another time perhaps Mr. Powers—but among us we escorted her along.
Mr.Adams. Then when you finally got the casket out through this corridor, and got it into the ambulance, how did you go to the airport?
Mr.O'Brien. In a car that was parked alongside the ambulance. The driver in the car—Mrs. Kennedy went into the ambulance. And Mr. O'Donnell, Mr. Powers, and I went into the back seat of this car.
Mr.Adams. Was this a police car?
Mr.O'Brien. It was an official car of some sort.
Mr.Adams. At that time do you know whether or not the Vice President had left the hospital?
Mr.O'Brien. I do not know.
Mr.Adams. Had he arrived at Love Field by the time you got out there?
Mr.O'Brien. Yes.
Mr.Adams. And what happened when you arrived at Love Field?
Mr.O'Brien. Well, again the Secret Service and those of us in the official party that had arrived at the field—I guess specifically again the three of us—helped to move the coffin up the steps of the plane. It was a difficult job, because the steps, of course, were the normal set of stairs for a plane, and, therefore, it was too narrow to accomplish this without some difficulty. But it was brought onto the plane.
At that point I noticed that seats to the left of the door had been removed, leaving a floor space in the plane to place the coffin. We placed the coffin on the floor. Then I looked up, and the President and Mrs. Johnson were at the corridor that would go into the compartment from that area of the plane.
Mrs. Kennedy came aboard and was seated in the remaining two seats at a table to the left in the rear compartment, and Mrs. Johnson and the President went over to her.
Mr.Adams. Do you know how it came to pass that the President was sworn in at that time?
Mr.O'Brien. The President and Mrs. Johnson, after a brief discussion with Mrs. Kennedy, went into the Presidential compartment—I guess that is the best way to describe that section of the plane—this would be where the President's chair and desk are located. He asked Mr. O'Donnell to join him.
During the course of these few minutes, it was my understanding that we were going to immediately depart. There was some confusion for a couple of minutes about departure. I was not privy to that. And the President asked the two of us to sit with him, at which point he said that he was awaiting a judge who was en route to swear him in—that he had secured the advice of the Attorney General, which, as I understood it, was a preference in his view to have a swearing in ceremony immediately. And that this would be accomplished within a matter of minutes.
So while we awaited the arrival of the judge, the President, Mr. O'Donnell and I, joined by Mrs. Johnson, after a couple of minutes, sat at this table with the four seats, and just discussed the fact that the departure would take place immediately following the swearing in ceremony. And during that period we briefly discussed the first step of the President to insure continuity, and either just before the swearing-in or immediately following it, the President discussed with Mr. O'Donnell and me his desire that we stay, as he put it, shoulder to shoulder with him.
The judgearrived——
Mr.Adams. During that interval, who was staying with Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr.O'Brien. Mrs. Kennedy had at that point gone into the restroom adjacent to the bedroom in the compartment.
The judge arrived in minutes. And it was suggested that those in the—I guess the best way to describe it—the front of the plane, those who could move into the compartment, including those representing the press, a single photographer was brought aboard. The wording of the oath was available. The judge took her position. The President said that he certainly wanted Mrs. Kennedy with him at this moment. I went to the bedroom. The door to the adjoining restroom was closed. I went out and asked Mrs. Lincoln if she would see if Mrs. Kennedy was available. She went in and came out with Mrs. Kennedy, and she took her place to the President's left, Mrs. Johnson to the President's right, the others grouped around. I stood behind the judge, and just as the judge was to start the ceremony, a member of the crew handed me a small Bible in a white box. I took the Bible from the box, interrupted the judge just momentarily, and handed her the Bible. She completed the ceremony.
Then everyone immediately settled down. The judge departed from the plane, the photographer from the plane. Everyone settled down, and we took off without further delay.
Mr.Adams. As a matter of detail, do you happen to know what happened to the Bible?
Mr.O'Brien. I do not know.
Mr.Adams. The plane then departed immediately?
Mr.O'Brien. That is correct.
Mr.Adams.And——
Mr.O'Brien. Mr. O'Donnell and I went to the rear compartment where we joined Mr. Powers and General McHugh. Mrs. Kennedy was seated in one of the two chairs. Mr. O'Donnell took the other chair. The three of us stood. The plane took off. And we remained with Mrs. Kennedy for the duration of the trip to Washington.
We consulted, or were consulted by General Clifton and Mr. Moyers on two or three occasions during the trip, on arrangements for the President's activity upon arrival here in Washington. One suggestion was made that we—that they call in for a meeting of the White House staff. But that was discarded as impractical at this point. Arrangements were made, however, which Mr. Moyers checked with me, on the calling of the bipartisan leaders to a meeting with the President, and arrangements were put in effect for the President to meet the Under Secretary of State in the absence of the Secretary and other officials here.
Mr.Adams. How did it come about that the remains of President Kennedy were taken to the naval hospital?
Mr.O'Brien. It was my understanding that the President would be taken to a hospital. I don't recall any discussion of the reason specifically other than my assumption that the autopsy would take place at one of the military hospitals in Washington. And obviously there were two to select from, and the President being an ex-Navy man, it seemed just sort of normal to suggest Bethesda.
Mr.Adams. And you remained with Mrs. Kennedy during the entire trip?
Mr.O'Brien. Yes; I did.
Mr.Adams. What was her condition?
Mr.O'Brien. She conversed a great deal with us. The one impression left with me from the entire trip and conversations with Mrs. Kennedy during the trip, participated in by all of us, was her great concern for us, really—her feeling that we had, as she put it, been with him at the beginning and we were with him at the end. We were all bereft. And I am afraid that the four of us who felt that we should be of some comfort to her were inadequate to the job in the sense that it was difficult for us to come up with anything that made much sense by way of being helpful.
Mr.Adams. Do you remember any other general subjects of discussion as you made the trip up?
Mr.O'Brien. No; I do not.
Mr.Adams. What happened when you arrived?
Mr.O'Brien. A lift was placed at the rear door of the plane. The honor guard came up the front steps, through the plane, to the back compartment. We concluded that we would take the body off the plane.
Mr.Adams. You say "we." You mean Mr. Powers, Mr. O'Donnell, and yourself?
Mr.O'Brien. General McHugh. And so we proceeded to do just that. We took the—lifted the coffin, with the help of the crew people, and placed it on the lift, and it was taken from there.
We—the three of us—four of us—McHugh was with us—got into a car. The Attorney General and Mrs. Kennedy went into the ambulance, if that is what it was. And we followed in a car directly behind that, went out to Bethesda Naval Hospital.
Mr.Adams. What did you do when you arrived there?
Mr.O'Brien. We went immediately to an upper floor of the hospital, where we joined members of the President's family. General McHugh went elsewhere. And we then spent several hours in these rooms on, I don't know what floor of the hospital.
Mr.Adams. When you referred to the President's family, what particular members were there?
Mr.O'Brien. Well, Mrs. Stephen Smith was there.
Mr.Adams. Mrs. Attorney General Kennedy?
Mr.O'Brien. Yes. I don't recall all the members of the family. The Attorney General—and there were—there was an occasional person that came and went during the night But that was basically the group.
We had coffee and received reports from time to time from General McHugh as to the length of time it would take for the trip from Bethesda to the White House. And the hours went on and on, until the early hours of the morning—perhaps 4 a.m.
Mr.Adams. And then what did you do?
Mr.O'Brien. We came to the White House, at which point several members of the White House staff, Mr. Shriver, were awaiting the arrival of the President. He was placed in the East Room. A brief prayer was given, and that terminated the evening.
Mr.Adams. I would like to ask you to go back again and give me your recollections of the President's views about the nature of the protection that should be afforded him, or what his attitude was towards security.
Mr.O'Brien. I cannot recall any specific conversation I had with the President in this area. All I can say is that the President at all times was most interested in close contact with his fellow Americans, and in that sense he was quick to move to a fence that separated him from the people, he was quick to move towards people. He certainly moved quite freely. But I do not recall ever having a conversation or being present during the course of a conversation when the specific protective measures were discussed or what his views were relative to them.
Mr.Adams. Other than what you have said here, do you have any knowledge at all about the person who did the shooting, whoever it might be?
Mr.O'Brien. None whatsoever.
Mr.Adams. Do you have any other thing I have not covered that you would like to put in this record?
Mr.O'Brien. I don't believe so. I believe that to the best of my recollection I have tried to carefully review all aspects of the matter, from departure from the lawn of the White House to arrival back at the White House. And I cannot call anything to mind now that I might have overlooked.
Mr.Adams. Now, finally, it is a custom in this Commission to make transcripts available to the witnesses if they want to read them before signing them, or if you would like you can waive that. That is entirely up to you.
Mr.O'Brien. I would like to have the transcript.
Mr.Adams. Then we will send it along in the next few days, and when you have an opportunity to consider it, if you will just send it back to the Commission we would appreciate it.
Mr.O'Brien. I certainly will.
Mr.Adams. That closes this deposition.
The following affidavit was executed by David F. Powers on May 18, 1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSIONON THE ASSASSINATION OFPRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
District of Columbia,ss:
I, David F. Powers, make the following affidavit concerning my knowledge of the events of November 21 and 22, 1963.
I traveled to Texas with the Presidential party on November 21, 1963, on AF-1. After a stop in Houston, we spent the night in Fort Worth, Texas. On the evening of November 21st, we were discussing the size of the crowd in the Rice University Stadium at Houston, and the President asked me how I thought it compared with the crowd the last time he was there. I said that the crowd was about the same as the one which came to see him before but there were 100,000 extra people on hand who came to see Mrs. Kennedy. President Kennedy then made a comment to Mrs. Kennedy to the effect that she was a great asset on the trip and that seemed to make her happy, although at that particularmoment she was very tired, having spent many hours that day traveling in the plane and on motorcades.
The next day we proceeded on to Dallas and arrived at Love Field at approximately 11:30 a.m. The President and Mrs. Kennedy were in high spirits and as they were leaving the plane I jokingly remarked to the two of them that they looked like Mr. and Mrs. America and that they should not both wave in the same direction as it would be too much for anyone to receive all that attention at once. They were the first to leave the Presidential plane (AF-1) and were greeted by Vice President and Mrs. Johnson (whose plane had already arrived at Dallas), along with other members of the Dallas reception committee. President and Mrs. Kennedy then went over to greet the airport crowd which was standing behind an iron fence. I was assigned to ride in the Secret Service automobile which proceeded immediately behind the President's car in the motorcade. That Secret Service follow-up automobile was an open car with two Special Agents in the front seat, two Special Agents in the rear seat and two Special agents on each of the two running boards. I sat in the jump seat on the right side of the car and Kenneth O'Donnell sat in the jump seat on the left side of the car.
The crowd in Dallas was very friendly and very enthusiastic. In my opinion it was twice as large as the crowd that was present when Mr. Kennedy campaigned in Dallas in 1960. Kenneth O'Donnell and I were observing the size and disposition of the crowd in order to evaluate the local political situation. President Kennedy was sitting on the extreme right-hand side of his automobile, with his arm extending as much as two feet beyond the right edge of the car, and Mrs. Kennedy was seated on the extreme left of the back seat. They were seated at the opposite ends of the back seat in order to give their full attention to the crowds on each side.
As we proceeded through Dallas the motorcade slowed down on a number of occasions, but I do not believe it ever stopped. When we passed through the heart of Dallas, the crowds were about ten deep. We then turned off of Main Street onto Houston and made the sharp swing to the left up Elm Street.
At that time we were traveling very slowly, no more than 12 miles an hour. In accordance with my custom, I was very much concerned about our timing and at just about that point I looked at my watch and noted that it was almost exactly 12:30 p.m., which was the time we were due at the Trade Mart. I commented to Ken O'Donnell that it was 12:30 and we would only be about five minutes late when we arrived at the Trade Mart. Shortly thereafter the first shot went off and it sounded to me as if it were a firecracker. I noticed then that the President moved quite far to his left after the shot from the extreme right hand side where he had been sitting. There was a second shot and Governor Connally disappeared from sight and then there was a third shot which took off the top of the President's head and had the sickening sound of a grapefruit splattering against the side of a wall. The total time between the first and third shots was about 5 or 6 seconds. My first impression was that the shots came from the right and overhead, but I also had a fleeting impression that the noise appeared to come from the front in the area of the triple overpass. This may have resulted from my feeling, when I looked forward toward the overpass, that we might have ridden into an ambush.
At about the time of the third shot, the President's car accelerated sharply, with the follow-up car driving right behind it. Mrs. Kennedy climbed onto the back of the car. Perhaps she may have been looking for help and perhaps she really didn't know what she was doing. I think Special Agent Clinton Hill saved her life by climbing up on the back of the car and pushing her into the back seat because she probably would have fallen off the rear end of the car and would have been right in the path of the other cars proceeding in the motorcade.
We proceeded at a high rate of speed to Parkland Hospital. Upon arriving at the emergency entrance, I raced over to where President Kennedy lay and Special Agent Hill and I, along with Special Agent Kellerman, placed him ona stretcher. The three of us and Special Agent Greer pushed him into the emergency area. I stayed with Mrs. Kennedy the entire time at the hospital. She went in and out of the emergency room and when she wasn't in the emergency room, she sat on a chair right outside the emergency room door. I believe Ken O'Donnell went to call the Attorney General as soon as we arrived at the hospital.
I accompanied the President's body and Mrs. Kennedy on the trip from the hospital to the airport. Some seats were removed from a rear compartment of the President's plane and the casket was placed there. On the trip back to Washington, Mrs. Kennedy refused to change her clothes or eat, but did sip some coffee. Upon arriving at Andrews Air Force Base, Mrs. Kennedy declined to take a helicopter to Bethesda Naval Hospital but instead chose to ride with President Kennedy's body in the hearse. Kenneth O'Donnell and I stayed with Mrs. Kennedy and the other members of the President's family at Bethesda until the early hours of the morning on November 23, 1963.
Signed the 18th day of May 1964 at Washington, D.C.
(S)David F. Powers,David F. Powers.
(S)David F. Powers,David F. Powers.
(S)David F. Powers,David F. Powers.
The following affidavit was executed by Clifton C. Carter on May 20, 1964.
AFFIDAVIT
PRESIDENT'S COMMISSIONON THE ASSASSINATION OFPRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
District of Columbia,ss:
I, Clifton C. Carter, make the following affidavit concerning my knowledge of the events of November 22, 1963.
Vice President Johnson and I had been in Texas during the week preceding November 22nd, and we had met the party of President Kennedy in San Antonio, Texas, on Thursday, November 21, 1963.
I was on the Vice President's plane (AF-2) when it landed at Dallas Love Field on November 22 at about 11:30 a.m. Vice President and Mrs. Johnson left their plane and joined the reception party which greeted President and Mrs. Kennedy, who arrived in the President's plane (AF-1). President and Mrs. Kennedy then shook hands with people in the crowd along an iron fence. While the Presidential party greeted the crowd, I went to the automobile where I was to ride in the motorcade. It was a Secret Service vehicle assigned to follow and protect the Vice President. Our car was right behind the Vice President's automobile, which was immediately to the rear of the Presidential Secret Service follow-up car, which drove right behind the President's automobile.
The automobile in which I rode was driven by a Dallas policeman. I sat in the middle of the front seat and held some radio equipment on my lap. Special Agent Jerry D. Kivett sat on my right and Special Agent Len Johns and someone else were in the rear seat. This was an unmarked Dallas police car.
Nothing unusual occurred on the motorcade route from Love Field to the downtown Dallas area. The crowds were very large and very friendly, except for two or three signs which contained derogatory comments about President Kennedy. I would estimate that the crowds were twice as big as they were in September of 1960 when Mr. Kennedy campaigned in Dallas. The motorcade slowed down at times, but I do not believe that it stopped.
The motorcade proceeded west on Main Street, made a right-hand turn onto Houston and then swung around to the left on Elm, proceeding slowly at about 5 to 10 miles per hour. At approximately 12:30 p.m., our car had just made the left-hand turn off Houston onto Elm Street and was right along side of the Texas School Book Depository Building when I heard a noise which sounded like a firecracker. Special Agent Youngblood, who was seated on theright-hand side of the front seat of Vice President Johnson's car immediately turned and pushed Vice President Johnson down and in the same motion vaulted over the seat and covered the Vice President with his body. At that instant Mrs. Johnson and Senator Yarborough, who were riding in the back seat along with the Vice President, bent forward. Special Agent Youngblood's action came immediately after the first shot and before the succeeding shots.
I distinctly remember three shots. There was an interval of approximately 5 to 6 seconds from the first to the last shot, and the three shots were evenly spaced. The motorcade promptly accelerated and traveled at high speeds up to 75 to 80 miles an hour to Parkland Memorial Hospital. The President's automobile, the President's follow-up car, the Vice President's automobile, and the Vice President's follow-up car pulled into the emergency entrance at Parkland. Attendants from the hospital with two stretchers carried President Kennedy and Governor Connally into the hospital. At one point I briefly helped remove Governor Connally from the car onto the stretcher. After President Kennedy and Governor Connally had been taken into the hospital, Vice President Johnson, Mrs. Johnson, Special Agent Youngblood and I entered the emergency area and were taken to a small room where we waited. I went out on a couple of occasions to secure coffee. Congressmen Henry Gonzalez, Jack Brooks, Homer Thornberry and Albert Thomas came into the room where Vice President Johnson waited. About 1 o'clock Mrs. Johnson left the room, stating that she wanted to visit with Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally.
At 1:12 p.m. Special Agent Emory Roberts brought the news that President Kennedy was dead. At that moment the only people present were Vice President Johnson, Congressman Thornberry, Special Agent Len Johns, and I. Special Agent Roberts advised Vice President Johnson to return to the White House forthwith because of the concern of the Secret Service that there might be a widespread plot to assassinate Vice President Johnson as well as President Kennedy.
Vice President Johnson then asked that Kenny (O'Donnell) and Larry (O'Brien) be consulted to determine what their views were on returning promptly to Washington. Kenny and Larry came down and told Vice President Johnson that they agreed he should return to Washington immediately. Vice President Johnson then asked me to try to alert some of the members of his staff to go to the airport for the return trip to Washington. I then proceeded to look for those members of the staff, and I was later driven to Love Field by a young Dallas policeman. By the time I returned to the Presidential plane (AF-1), Vice President and Mrs. Johnson had already boarded the plane and arrangements had already been made to have Vice President Johnson sworn-in as the President. I do not have any personal knowledge of Vice President Johnson's conversation with Attorney General Kennedy concerning the advisability of a prompt swearing-in or of the arrangements to have Judge Sara Hughes participate in that ceremony. I was present at the swearing-in and shortly thereafter the President's plane took off for the Washington area.
The original conversations concerning President Kennedy's trip to Texas occurred on June 5, 1963 at the Cortez Hotel in El Paso, Texas. President Kennedy had spoken earlier that day at the Air Force Academy and Vice President Johnson had spoken at Annapolis. The President and Vice President met with Governor Connally at the Cortez Hotel to discuss a number of matters, including a trip by the President to Texas. Fred Korth and I were present when the three men assembled, but Fred Korth and I left during their discussion of the President's proposed trip. The first tentative date was to have the trip coincide with Vice-President Johnson's birthday on August 27th, but that was rejected because it was too close to Labor Day. President Kennedy's other commitments prevented him from coming to Texas any sooner than November 21st, which was the date finally set.
Signed this 20th day of May 1964.
(S)Clifton C. Carter,Clifton C. Carter.
(S)Clifton C. Carter,Clifton C. Carter.
(S)Clifton C. Carter,Clifton C. Carter.
The testimony of Earle Cabell was taken at 9 a.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr.Hubert. This is the deposition of Hon. Earle Cabell, mayor of the city of Dallas.
Mr.Cabell. Former mayor.
Mr.Hubert. Is that right?
Mr.Cabell. I resigned in February.
Mr.Hubert. Mr. Cabell, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Cabell, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now Mr. Cabell, you appeared today by virtue of a letter which I understand was received by you on either July 8 or 9, written by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the President's Commission; is that correct?
Mr.Cabell. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Cabell. I do.
Mr.Hubert. Will you please state your name for the record?
Mr.Cabell. My name is Earle Cabell.
Mr.Hubert. What is your residence?
Mr.Cabell. My place of residence is 5338 Drane Drive, Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Hubert. Mr. Cabell, I understand that you were formerly the mayor of Dallas, but you resigned about 2 or 3 months ago?
Mr.Cabell. I was installed as mayor of Dallas May 1, 1961, for a 2-year term. Was reinstalled May 1, 1963, upon reelection. Resigned that office on February 3, 1964, to become a candidate for the House of Representatives of the United States.
Mr.Hubert. Prior to your becoming mayor, what occupation did you have? I simply want to get some background for the record.
Mr.Cabell. For the past 30-odd years I have been engaged in dairy products and food retailing in the city of Dallas and surrounding areas.
Mr.Hubert. You still have that business?
Mr.Cabell. No; I am not connected with that business officially any longer. I retain my office at the former headquarters of that company, which is 4017 Commerce Street. I am on a retainer with the company in an advisory capacity.
Mr.Hubert. Mr. Cabell, we are interested in a number of matters, but I think we can cover much of the ground by asking you to comment upon an interview of you by FBI Agents Warren Debrueys and George Carlson on December 12, 1963, which I have marked for identification as follows: On the first page in the right-hand margin I have marked "Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Honorable Earle Cabell." I have signed my name under that and on each of these succeeding three pages I have marked my initials in the right-hand lower corner.
Exhibit No. 1 consists therefore of 4 pages. Mr. Cabell, I think you have had an opportunity to read this Exhibit No. 1; is that right?
Mr.Cabell. I have read it.
Mr.Hubert. Now I ask you if the exhibit, which is, as I have said, a report of an interview of you by the FBI agents named, is an accurate and fair statement of the conference or interview had between you?
Mr.Cabell. It is entirely so.
Mr.Hubert. Do you have any corrections or additions?
Mr.Cabell. I find no corrections or additions to make to that statement.
Mr.Hubert. For the record, I would like you to state briefly just what was the chain of command of governmental authority in the city of Dallas, starting with you, I take it, as the top, on down at least to the police department.
Mr.Cabell. Under the charter of the city of Dallas, the city council is composed of councilmen and the mayor, the mayor having the status of a councilman, but also being the presiding officer elected by the people at large as the mayor. He is the presiding officer and the spokesman for the council. The council does not have administrative responsibilities nor authority. The council is a legislative and policymaking body who appoint the city manager, among certain other city officials or department heads.
The city manager in turn has the discretion of appointing those department heads under his direct jurisdiction, including the appointment of the chief of police. The council, by ordinance, is not authorized to, and in fact is prohibited from taking direct administrative action through or over any of the department heads appointed by and responsible to the city manager.
Mr.Hubert. How many members compose the council, sir?
Mr.Cabell. Eight members, in addition to the Mayor.
Mr.Hubert. They are elected?
Mr.Cabell. They are all elected by the citizens of Dallas at large. That is, they are all voted upon.
Mr.Hubert. Now the city manager, as I understand it, is appointed by the council or by the mayor?
Mr.Cabell. No; the city manager is appointed by the council, by council action.
Mr.Hubert. Now the city manager on November 22 through 24, 1963, was Mr. Crull?
Mr.Cabell. Elgin E. Crull.
Mr.Hubert. Of course, for the record, you were then Mayor?
Mr.Cabell. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. I think it might be well also for the record if we have the names of the people that composed the council at that time.
Mr.Cabell. The council at that time was composed of Mr. Carie Welch. He was also mayor pro tem. Mr. William Roberts, Mrs. Tracy Rutherford, Mr. Joe Moody, Mr. Joe Golman, Mrs. Elizabeth Blessing, Mr. George Underwood, Jr., Mr. R. B. Carpenter.
Mr.Hubert. I understand that Mr. Crull had been serving as city manager for quite some time?
Mr.Cabell. Something over 10 years.
Mr.Hubert. Could you describe briefly for us the relationship between the mayor and the council and the city manager?
Mr.Cabell. Well, it is the relationship of the general manager of a corporate entity and his board of directors, with most day-to-day contact being made through the mayor as the presiding officer of that board.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, the city manager really has the detailed administration of city affairs?
Mr.Cabell. He is entirely responsible for the administrative functions of the city government.
Mr.Hubert. Now, the mayor, then, is responsible for policies with the council; is that correct?
Mr.Cabell. As the presiding officer, the mayor has only one vote on the action of the council, as any other councilman, but by virtue of being the presiding officer and the spokesman of the council, then on day-to-day routine matters, the contact of the city manager is through the mayor.
Mr.Hubert. Does the council make any other appointments than the appointment of the city manager?
Mr.Cabell. Yes; the direct appointees of the council are the city attorney,the city secretary, the supervisor of public utilities, and the city auditor, with the city auditor being nominated by the Dallas Clearing House Association.
Mr.Hubert. I understand then that the chief of police is appointed by the city manager completely?
Mr.Cabell. That is correct; and is responsible only to the city manager.
Mr.Hubert. Does the city council or mayor confirm the appointees of the city manager? What authority do they have?
Mr.Cabell. They confirm by virtue of approval of the budget wherein their salaries are stipulated and they are named.
Mr.Hubert. But it is not an appointment such as with Federal officials where the President appoints and the city confirms?
Mr.Cabell. No.
Mr.Hubert. Now I want to ask you to state what you observed concerning the actual shooting of the President, and perhaps the best way to start is to tell us what position you were in in the Presidential parade.
Mr.Cabell. We were separated from the President's car by the car in which the Vice President and Senator Yarborough were riding, and by a station wagon holding, I think, certain members of the press and possibly some Secret Service, and I believe one other car of Secret Service so there were either two or three intervening cars between our place in the motorcade and the Presidential car.
Mr.Hubert. Who was in your car other than the driver?
Mr.Cabell. Mrs. Cabell and Congressman Ray Roberts from McKinney, Tex., Congressman from the Fourth District, and myself.
Mr.Hubert. Just the three of you?
Mr.Cabell. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember who the driver was?
Mr.Cabell. I do not remember his name. He was a member of the Department of Public Safety of the State of Texas.
Mr.Hubert. When did you observe anything at all relative to the shooting of the President?
Mr.Cabell. Well, we were just rounding the corner of Market and Elm, making the left turn, when the first shot rang out.
Mr.Hubert. Would you describe what you saw or heard, please, sir?
Mr.Cabell. I heard the shot. Mrs. Cabell said, "Oh a gun" or "a shot", and I was about to deny and say "Oh it must have been a firecracker" when the second and the third shots rang out. There was a longer pause between the first and second shots than there was between the second and third shots. They were in rather rapid succession. There was no mistaking in my mind after that, that they were shots from a high-powered rifle.
Mr.Hubert. Are you familiar with rifles so that your statement that it was your opinion it came from a high-powered rifle was that of a person who knows something about it?
Mr.Cabell. I have done a great deal of hunting and also used military shoulder guns, as well as hunting rifles.
Mr.Hubert. Were you in the armed services during the war?
Mr.Cabell. No; I was not, but there was no question in my mind as to their being from a high-powered rifle and coming from the direction of the building known as the School Book Depository.
Mr.Hubert. That you judged, I suppose, by the direction from which you thought the sound came?
Mr.Cabell. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Could you estimate the number of seconds, say, between the first and second shots, as related to the number of seconds between the second and third shots? Perhaps doing it on the basis of a ratio?
Mr.Cabell. Well, I would put it this way. That approximately 10 seconds, elapsed between the first and second shots, with not more than 5 seconds having elapsed until the third one.
Mr.Hubert. Two to one ratio?
Mr.Cabell. Approximately that. And again I say that, as you mentioned, as a matter of being relative. I couldn't tell you the exact seconds because they were not counted.
Mr.Hubert. Now when you became conscious that these were shots and that they seemed to be coming from the building known as the Texas School Book Depository Building, did you look toward that building?
Mr.Cabell. My back was turned to it at the time, because I was riding in the front seat and was conversing with Mrs. Cabell and Mr. Roberts.
Mr.Hubert. Who were in the back? And you were next to the driver?
Mr.Cabell. I was sitting in the front seat with the driver. This was a convertible in which we were riding with the top down.
Mr.Hubert. So that actually the shots seemed to you to come from behind?
Mr.Cabell. From behind.
Mr.Hubert. Did you turn in the direction of the shots?
Mr.Cabell. I turned then, rather looking down toward the Presidential car, and then I saw the people scattering and some throwing themselves on the ground. One man threw himself over a child that was sitting in the grass there. I did not observe anything in connection with the building itself.
Mr.Hubert. You did not see anybody in any of the windows?
Mr.Cabell. No.
Mr.Hubert. Now I think you mentioned that Mrs. Cabell made a remark to you, "Oh, that is a shot." I take it from what you have said, that remark was made immediately after the first shot?
Mr.Cabell. Just immediately; yes.
Mr.Hubert. And before the second and third, is that right?
Mr.Cabell. And really before I could get my answer out—I think it was motivated by wishful thinking as much as anything else, to deny or to say possibly it wasn't—then the second and third shots rang out.
Mr.Hubert. Were there any other spontaneous remarks made by anyone else in the car?
Mr.Cabell. Well, in the discussion which followed, both Mr. Roberts and myself said that it must have been from a gun similar to a .30-06.
Mr.Hubert. By spontaneous, I meant those remarks made just immediately, not the discussion thereafter, you see.
Mr.Cabell. I don't remember.
Mr.Hubert. So you do not recall any remarks made by anyone else of a spontaneous nature?
Mr.Cabell. No; I don't.
Mr.Hubert. Well, what did you do after the shots were fired and the Presidential car and the vice presidential car went on?
Mr.Cabell. Then we just followed and told the driver to follow them.
Mr.Hubert. You went on then tothe——
Mr.Cabell. We went on to the hospital. We could not tell whether they were just going back to the airport or going toward the hospital. Now there was a question raised among us as to where we were headed.
Mr.Hubert. You didn't in fact know who had been hit, I take it?
Mr.Cabell. No; we couldn't tell. We could tell, of course, there was confusion in the presidential car—activity. The Secret Service men ran to that car. From out of nowhere appeared one Secret Service man with a submachine gun. His attention seemed to be focused up toward the building. One of the motorcycle officers and the escort pulled his motorcycle over to the side and jumped off with his drawn handgun and ran up the slope toward the building, toward the School Book Depository. I do not recall any other shots being fired than the three which I mentioned.
Mr.Hubert. I take it also that you got to the hospital very shortly after the Presidential car did?
Mr.Cabell. Of course, when we turned off of Stemmons Expressway, we knew then that we were headed toward Parkland. Otherwise, we would have proceeded on Stemmons to Mockingbird Lane, which would have been the direct route to the airport.
Mr.Hubert. When you got to the hospital, had the President been removed from the car?
Mr.Cabell. He was in the process of being removed; was on the carriage. Another carriage was brought out, and I was there and helped to steady the carriage when the Governor was taken out of the car and placed on the carriageand wheeled in. And I helped escort the carriage on into the hospital into the anteroom and stayed there until the body was removed.
Mr.Hubert. Did you happen to go to the room in which a press conference was held, at which the official announcement was made of the President's death?
Mr.Cabell. I was not in when any official thing—I assumed that the President was dead.
Mr.Hubert. I was trying to get the anteroom or hallway that you described. Where was this with reference to the outside door of the hospital, or the emergency room, or something of that sort?
Mr.Cabell. Well, this was in the emergency section. There is a large anteroom with a glassed-in enclosure where telephones were, and then off from that larger room was a narrow anteroom from which a series of operating rooms connected.
The President was in one of those, and directly across this little hallway then was where Governor Connally was.
Mr.Hubert. Were there any news people in that area?
Mr.Cabell. Yes; I am sure there must have been. I don't recall any whom I recognized personally.
Mr.Hubert. Specifically, do you know a reporter, newspaperman now with Scripps-Howard, by the name of Seth Kantor?
Mr.Cabell. I can't recall.
Mr.Hubert. Now there is some information, Mr. Cabell, that Jack Ruby was around the hospital some place, either near the entrance or near the pressroom, or something of that sort. And, of course, I take it that you now know what he looks like, from pictures in the press?
Mr.Cabell. Well, I knew him by sight.
Mr.Hubert. You knew him by sight prior to this?
Mr.Cabell. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How long had you known him?
Mr.Cabell. I would say for several years.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see him around the hospital then at any time?
Mr.Cabell. No; I did not.
Mr.Hubert. And you stayed until the President's body was removed?
Mr.Cabell. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What did you do after that, sir?
Mr.Cabell. We went—Mrs. Cabell accompanied me and went back to Love Field. There was a number of members of the Texas delegation to the Congress who had accompanied the President and Vice President on the trip down here, and I more or less took them in tow and secured a station wagon from the vehicles that were outside the hospital and carried them, at the direction of one of the Secret Service agents who was more or less in charge in there, to the Southwest Airmotive side of Love Field, which is the eastern side, because he advised me that Air Force I would take off from that side. So there was some with us in our car, and then the station wagon with the additional ones. When we got to Southwest Airmotive, Air Force I was still parked on the west side of the field where they had deplaned the passengers earlier. Realizing that it was going to take off rather quickly, I asked the public relations man for Southwest Airmotive to get on the radio and contact the Air Force officer in charge through the control tower as to what to do about these men, whether to bring them over to that side, or was the plane going to come over there.
We did not get a direct answer, but the squad car of the Dallas Police Department, which is assigned to Love Field, came over and got us, apparently through clearance of the control tower, and carried us right straight across the field. Apparently they stopped any movement to get us across the field. Then those men were able to board the plane.
Mr.Hubert. Well, after you left the field, after Air Force I had left, what was your activity then, sir?
Mr.Cabell. We stayed there on the ground until afterAir Force 1had taken off with the body of the President. We conferred for a few minutes with Sheriff Bill Decker and Chief of Police Curry. Chief Curry was in the plane and a witness to the swearing in of President Johnson. Shortly after it took off, then Mrs. Cabell, and I returned home. We dropped Mrs. Cabell off, andthen the driver carried me to Mr. Jonsson's house where I left my car, and then I returned home.
Mr.Hubert. When did you first know of the apprehension of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Cabell. On the field there, Chief Curry told us of the killing of Officer Tippit, and I believe told us at the same time that they had apprehended the suspect.
Mr.Hubert. That is to say, the suspect of the killing of the President, or of Tippit?
Mr.Cabell. That he was one and the same.
Mr.Hubert. Did he tell you what information he had to indicate that the killer of Tippit was also the assassin of the President?
Mr.Cabell. Only that it was believed that he was one and the same. Now the details, I did not get at that time either concerning the killing of Officer Tippit or the subsequent apprehension of Oswald.
Mr.Hubert. What was your next contact with Curry, if you recall?
Mr.Cabell. I don't recall any further contact with Curry. This was not a face to face or personal contact. It was telephonic concerning the issuance of this parade permit, which is covered in the report by the bureau man.
Mr.Hubert. That was a conference by telephone on Sunday the 24th?
Mr.Cabell. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. You had no contact, to your knowledge, with him?
Mr.Cabell. I don't recall any further contact with Chief Curry.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have a contact with any other member of the police department?
Mr.Cabell. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have any knowledge of the situation in the county jail with reference to the news media?
Mr.Cabell. That was the city jail.
Mr.Hubert. I beg your pardon, city jail, with reference to the covering of the matter by the news media, and the confusion that came about as a result of that?
Mr.Cabell. I knew fairly well what was going on by watching my own TV from time to time and the covering that they had on the activities around the police department of the city hall.
Mr.Hubert. Was there any meeting of the council during the interval between the 22d and the 24th?
Mr.Cabell. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have any contact with City Manager Crull during that time?
Mr.Cabell. The Sunday morning, I knew that the city manager was out of town, and in my conversation with Chief Curry subsequent to the shooting of Oswald, I asked him if he had made contact with Mr. Crull, and suggested that if he had not, that he do make immediate contact and ask for his return to the city.
Mr.Hubert. That was after the shooting of Oswald?
Mr.Cabell. This was after the shooting of Oswald. And he told me at that time that Mr. Crull had been contacted and was on his way back.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know prior to the shooting of Oswald, or have you learned since whether there was any awareness in the police department of possible danger to Oswald?
Mr.Cabell. No, no. After it had all occurred, then I recall having been told by someone that there had been an attempt, or that an attempt would be made, but that is not clear, and purely a matter of hearsay.
Mr.Hubert. I believe in your conversation with Chief Curry on Sunday, you discussed a threat that had been made to you, or indirectly?
Mr.Cabell. He called me that this call had come through the switchboard of the city hall, and it was his understanding that it was long distance, but he did not know the source, and since it was a direct dial and they could not trace it, there was not enough time, wherein the caller said that an attempt would be made on my life.
Mr.Hubert. He told you that was a long-distance call?
Mr.Cabell. It was his impression, the switchboard operator's impression that it was some long distance.
Mr.Hubert. That was prior to Oswald's death?
Mr.Cabell. No; that was following Oswald's death, and that is when he told me that he was sending officers out to maintain security.
Mr.Hubert. Attached to page 3 it seems to indicate that the call with Curry must have occurred a bit before you received the news of Oswald's shooting?
Mr.Cabell. The first call from Curry, or only the starting of any conversations with Chief Curry were relative to this torchlight parade on that night. I had called him and told him that I would recommend the cancellation of that parade. He had granted it, but then I had recommended the cancellation, and I would assume full responsibility for having given that instruction.
Mr.Hubert. At that time Oswald had not been shot?
Mr.Cabell. No.
Mr.Hubert. But on that first call then, was there any discussion between you and Chief Curry about the transfer of Oswald?
Mr.Cabell. No.
Mr.Hubert. Was there any discussion about the security precautions that were being observed or the problems that they were?
Mr.Cabell. I do not recall any discussion on that at all.
Mr.Hubert. Chief Curry did not tell you that any threats had been made to Oswald?
Mr.Cabell. No.
Mr.Hubert. Now during the period November 22 until the shooting of Oswald, did you have any conversations with the press concerning the whole matter?
Mr.Cabell. There were a number of calls. There were members of the press, both the national and international press that came to my home during that period. I had given a statement on Friday night to both television stations.
Mr.Hubert. That wasby——
Mr.Cabell. That was on Friday.
Mr.Hubert. On television?
Mr.Cabell. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall whether any part of those statements or interviews had to do with the transfer of Oswald?
Mr.Cabell. None whatsoever. There was never any during that period. There was never any mention of that. It was not brought up nor discussed.
Mr.Hubert. Then later on Sunday morning, I understand after the security call from Chief Curry, there was another call from him with regard to the death of Oswald?
Mr.Cabell. He called me.
Mr.Hubert. I mean the shooting of Oswald.
Mr.Cabell. Yes; the incident referred to here about a friend calling.
Mr.Hubert. You say "here." You are referring to page 3 of Exhibit No. 1?
Mr.Cabell. "He received a telephone call from a friend." That friend was Mrs. R. O. Alexander who said, "Do you have your television on?" And I said, No. She said, "Get it on quick. They have just shot Oswald." And I immediately turned my television on. I was in the den where I was sitting and taking these telephone calls, and then just as I get it turned on, they still had not removed Oswald at that time because this was just a matter of a minute or 2 from the actual shooting. Then Chief Curry called and said, "They have just shot Oswald." And I said, "Yes; I have it on TV now."
Mr.Hubert. Was any action taken then by anybody, do you know, concerning, first, security measures or further protection against?
Mr.Cabell. Nothing to my knowledge.
Mr.Hubert. I think I have asked this before. If I have, then just disregard it, but did you contact City Manager Crull during the interval?
Mr.Cabell. No; I did not contact him. Now he came to my home immediately on his return to the city.
Mr.Hubert. Which was about what time?
Mr.Cabell. This was, well, it was early afternoon.
Mr.Hubert. Of the 24th?
Mr.Cabell. This was on the 24th, on Sunday; yes. It was about 1 o'clock.
Mr.Hubert. Can you comment upon this Lancaster Smith Proposal of a parade?
Mr.Cabell. Lane Smith is a very well-known, very active lay worker in the Catholic church, and he had called me earlier, and I think the suggestion for this came from some nuns, and when he first talked to me I didn't realize frankly the implications or the hazard of a procession such as that, and I told him—he asked about a permit, and I said that that is a matter that is handled by the chief of police, that he would have to be the one to issue a permit for any type of parade, because that is what that amounted to.
Mr.Hubert. What was the proposal of Mr. Smith?
Mr.Cabell. Well, a torchlight procession of both the clergy and any lay people as a procession of mourning that would pass by the site of the assassination and put flowers at the site.
Mr.Hubert. That was proposed for Sunday night?
Mr.Cabell. That was proposed for Sunday night, and after having talked with him, then the implications began to dawn on me, and when I realized that that was in a rather poorly lighted area, it is not in the best part of town, and that the procession itself would pass possibly under the very window of the jail where Oswald presumably would be by that time, then that was the reason behind my calling the chief then.
He told me he had issued the permit because he had no reason not to, and then that is when I made the recommendation that it be canceled.
Mr.Hubert. It was canceled in fact?
Mr.Cabell. Yes; it was.
Mr.Hubert. Before Oswald was shot?
Mr.Cabell. Oh, I think undoubtedly, because he said he would call Lanc immediately back.
Mr.Hubert. When did Lancaster Smith call you?
Mr.Cabell. I think it must have been around 8 or 9 o'clock in the morning, originally.
Mr.Hubert. Then you called Chief Curry about what time?
Mr.Cabell. Must have been very shortly after that. I would say 9 o'clock or possibly a short time after. I believe that it must have been just a little before 10, because I think that he was talking to me in his office at the time word was brought to him that Oswald was shot, or possibly had hung up the phone, or he would have mentioned that to me at the time.
Mr.Hubert. Because the evidence we now have shows that Oswald was shot about 11:20, so perhaps your time would have been 11 rather than 10?
Mr.Cabell. Yes; I was thinking in terms of 10 o'clock being the hour of shooting, but we can move this conversation with Curry to a matter of minutes preceding the shooting of Oswald.
Mr.Hubert. Now were any threatening calls received by you directly?
Mr.Cabell. Only one, which was received by Mrs. Cabell on New Year's Eve.
Mr.Hubert. December 31, 1963?
Mr.Cabell. December 31, 1963; yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Were there any received indirectly?
Mr.Cabell. Only those that were reported to us by Chief Curry. There was one incident which was not a call, but which was an unusual thing and which caused a certain amount of apprehension.
On a Saturday evening, which one I can't tell you, but it was while security was being maintained, that I decided to go out and eat dinner. Mrs. Cabell did not want to go. She said she would just stay at home. One of the officers stayed with Mrs. Cabell. The other one accompanied me to Tupinamba, a Mexican cafe on Lovers Lane. I told Mrs. Cabell I would get Mexican food there. There are three places in the immediate vicinity, all of which we patronize from time to time.
The officer and I were in having our dinner when the proprietor came over and said that I was wanted on the phone. I picked up the receiver. I could hear traffic noises in the background, so I knew that the line was open. I said, Hello several times, and the receiver clicked in my ear. I thought that Mrs. Cabell had possibly tried to get hold of me, and I called her, and she said, "No, she had not." So it was obvious that someone who was either inthe restaurant and had left when we came in, or had seen us enter the restaurant, put in this call, apparently just a nuisance or harassing type of thing.