Mr.Hubert. How long after you had been in the restaurant did this call come?
Mr.Cabell. Oh, a matter of 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr.Hubert. You never found the source of that?
Mr.Cabell. No.
Mr.Hubert. Was any investigation made?
Mr.Cabell. There was no way of making an investigation. The assumption is that the call was placed from one of the public telephones that are up and down that business section there.
Mr.Hubert. Mr. Cabell, there have been some reports as to the authenticity or veracity of, for which I do not vouch at all, to the effect that some pressure was put upon Chief of Police Curry by you or others to cooperate with the press in all ways possible. I think in fairness I should give you an opportunity to comment upon that.
Mr.Cabell. There was one that has been rumored. One of our local weekly publications made that as a statement. That is completely false. At no time did I have any contact with Chief Curry to the extent that I gave him any orders, instructions, or make any comment upon the situation other than the contact which I have mentioned with reference to this proposed torchlight parade.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know of any pressure put upon him by anyone in authority over him?
Mr.Cabell. I do not know of any, and my assumption would be, and I say assumption, would be that none had been made, because I know how Mr. Crull operates to the extent that he would not interfere in the duties of his chief of police. Now I am sure that they had conversations with reference to security and that sort of thing, but I would question very definitely that any orders as such on that subject would have been issued by Mr. Crull.
Mr.Hubert. In any case, neither you nor anyone else, to your knowledge, did anything of that sort, to wit, bring pressure upon him in anyway whatsoever?
Mr.Cabell. That is entirely correct.
Mr.Hubert. Mr. Cabell, do you have anything else to say, sir?
Mr.Cabell. No, sir; I don't know of anything else that I could add.
Mr.Hubert. Prior to the commencement of the recordation of your testimony, we had a very short conversation, but will you agree with me now that there was nothing that was discussed in that conversation relating to the testimony that has not been actually covered in the deposition?
Mr.Cabell. That is correct. I recall no conversation of any sort pertaining to this incident that has not been covered in the examination under this deposition.
Mr.Hubert. All right, sir, thank you very much.
(The following questions were asked upon completion of the deposition of Mrs. Earle Cabell.)
Mr.Hubert. Mayor Cabell, I wonder if you would agree for just a couple of questions for your deposition to be continued under the same terms and conditions that I began, and that you are under the same oath?
Mr.Cabell. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. I would like for you to comment, if you will, please, about the recordation of conversations on your telephone, telling us when the recordation system was set up, and when removed.
Mr.Cabell. It was set up on Sunday afternoon. That would have been the 24th; which recorded all conversations that came into action when the receiver was taken off the hook. It was removed on, I would say, after about 3 weeks. I am quite sure that it had been removed prior to December 31.
Mr.Hubert. Have you yourself ever learned of any conversations that were of a threatening nature?
Mr.Cabell. No.
Mr.Hubert. You have not heard the tape, of course?
Mr.Cabell. No; I have not.
Mr.Hubert. It is reasonable to suppose that if any had been recorded, it would have been brought to your attention?
Mr.Cabell. I am sure it would.
Mr.Hubert. Who has the possession of that tape?
Mr.Cabell. The police department.
Mr.Hubert. They still have it?
Mr.Cabell. I am assuming that they still have it.
Mr.Hubert. All right, thank you very much, sir. I certainly thank both of you.
The testimony of Mrs. Earle Cabell was taken at 10 a.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr.Hubert. This is the deposition of Mrs. Earle Cabell. Mrs. Cabell, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mrs. Cabell, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now Mrs. Cabell, you appear today by virtue of a letter addressed actually to you and your husband, Mayor Earle Cabell, by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, is that correct? That letter was dated either the 8th or 9th, or in any case was received on the 8th or 9th of July?
Mrs.Cabell. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now will you stand, please, and take the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs.Cabell. I do.
Mr.Hubert. Please state your name for the record, please, ma'am.
Mrs.Cabell. Mrs. Earle Cabell.
Mr.Hubert. You are the wife of former Mayor Earle Cabell?
Mrs.Cabell. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You reside with him now at what address?
Mrs.Cabell. 5338 Drane.
Mr.Hubert. Mrs. Cabell, I think you were with your husband in the presidential parade on November 22, 1963?
Mrs.Cabell. That's right.
Mr.Hubert. I wish you would tell us in your own words what you observed concerning the shooting of the President. I might say that your husband has testified that you were in the second or third car behind the President's car—the third or fourth car.
Mrs.Cabell. Third or fourth. We have never been able to be sure about that, because we were under the impression—of course, the chief of police's car preceded the presidential car, and we were under the impression that it was the presidential car, the vice presidential car, the station wagon apparently with Secret Service men, and then our car. There have been other statements made which we have never been quite sure of, that there was a Secret Service carbetween the presidential car and the vice presidential car. If that is true, we were one car further back.
Mr.Hubert. You were sitting on the rear seat of the convertible?
Mrs.Cabell. Behind the driver.
Mr.Hubert. Behind the driver. That would haveput——
Mrs.Cabell. Me on the left.
Mr.Hubert. Who was on your right?
Mrs.Cabell. Congressman Ray Roberts?
Mr.Hubert. Your husband was seated to the left of the driver on the front seat?
Mrs.Cabell. The right of the driver.
Mr.Hubert. The right of the driver. Now will you tell us in your own words, ma'am, what you saw and heard concerning the President's death?
Mrs.Cabell. As my husband has told you, he had his back to the School Depository Building. He was looking back talking to us.
Congressman Roberts was sitting just as this lady is now, and turned the same way. I was turned facing him. We were looking directly at each other. The position of our car was such that when that first shot rang out, my position was such that I did not have to turn to look at the building. I was directly facing it.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, your car was still really on Houston?
Mrs.Cabell. No; we were making the turn.
Mr.Hubert. Just on the turn?
Mrs.Cabell. Just on the turn, which put us at the top of the hill, you see.
Mr.Hubert. Since you were actually turned toward Representative Roberts on your right?
Mrs.Cabell. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Actually, you werefacing——
Mrs.Cabell. The building.
Mr.Hubert. The Texas Depository Building?
Mrs.Cabell. I was actually facing it.
Mr.Hubert. What was the first thing you noticed of an extraordinary nature, or heard?
Mrs.Cabell. I heard the shot, and without having to turn my head, I jerked my head up.
Mr.Hubert. Why did you do that?
Mrs.Cabell. Because I heard the direction from which the shot came, and I just jerked my head up.
Mr.Hubert. What did you see?
Mrs.Cabell. I saw a projection out of one of those windows. Those windows on the sixth floor are in groups of twos.
Mr.Hubert. In which window did you see the projection?
Mrs.Cabell. I have always been a little confused about that, but I think it was the first window.
Mr.Hubert. On what floor?
Mrs.Cabell. On the top floor. Now I cannot take oath and say which window. There was some confusion in my mind.
Mr.Hubert. But you say there were double windows. Is the confusion about whether it was the first or second double window, or the first or second window of the double windows?
Mrs.Cabell. The first or second window of the first group of double windows.
Mr.Hubert. What was this projection?
Mrs.Cabell. I cannot tell you. It was rather long looking, the projection.
Mr.Hubert. What did it seem like? An arm of an individual, or something mechanical?
Mrs.Cabell. I did not know, because I did not see a hand or a head or a human form behind it. It was in just a fleeting second that I jerked my head up and I saw something in that window, and I turned around to say to Earle, Earle, it is a shot, and before I got the words out, just as I got the words out, he said, "Oh, no; it must have been a——" the second two shots rang out. After that, there is a certain amount of confusion in my mind. I was acutelyaware of the odor of gunpowder. I was aware that the motorcade stopped dead still. There was no question about that.
Mr.Hubert. Let me ask you, after the first shot and your observation of this object in that window as you have described it, you turned your attention from that window?
Mrs.Cabell. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. So that you were not looking in the direction of that window when the second and third shots were fired?
Mrs.Cabell. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did you look in that direction thereafter?
Mrs.Cabell. If I did, I don't recall. I am completely aware of the people running up that hill. I saw the man throw the child on the ground and throw himself. I saw a woman in a bright green dress throw herself on the ground. I saw the policeman running up the grassy slope.
Mr.Hubert. You also mentioned that you were acutely aware of the smell of gunpowder?
Mrs.Cabell. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. When was that relative to the shots? I mean how soon after?
Mrs.Cabell. I cannot say for sure, because as I told you, the motorcade was stopped. And somewhere in there, Congressman Roberts said, "That is a .30-06." I didn't know what a .30-06 was.
Mr.Hubert. Did he say that after all the shots were fired?
Mrs.Cabell. I believe so. There was much confusion.
Mr.Hubert. And it was about that time that you observed the odor?
Mrs.Cabell. Of gunpowder.
Mr.Hubert. That was when your car at least had come to a standstill?
Mrs.Cabell. Every car in the motorcade had come to a standstill.
Mr.Hubert. Therefore, of course, it was before you followed on to the hospital?
Mrs.Cabell. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you make the observation to anyone at that time that you had smelled gunpowder?
Mrs.Cabell. No; because there was too much confusion. But I mentioned it to Congressman Roberts when we were in Washington a couple of weeks ago.
Mr.Hubert. Did he say that he had observed it?
Mrs.Cabell. As well as I remember, he said "Yes." We were in a group, a large group, and there was much conversation.
Mr.Hubert. Did you hear any other spontaneous remarks by anyone else? By spontaneous remarks, I mean remarks made then, not later.
Mrs.Cabell. Congressman Roberts—and I believe this was after the third shot, because we were dead still for a matter of some seconds—then when the motorcade started up, Congressman Roberts said—these might not be his exact words, but this is what he meant: "If all is well ahead, we are headed for Love Field. We are getting out."
Mr.Hubert. His previous remark about the caliber of the rifle, which you did not at that time understand, was made after the third shot was fired and before you began to move?
Mrs.Cabell. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Was there any other remark made by anyone other than those that you have covered?
Mrs.Cabell. No; except that as the motorcade started up, he said, "If all iswell——
Mr.Hubert. Who said?
Mrs.Cabell. Congressman Roberts said, "If all is well, we are headed for Love Field. We are getting out."
Mr.Hubert. Did the driver say anything, to your knowledge?
Mrs.Cabell. I don't recall that he said a word.
Mr.Hubert. During the time that you were standing absolutely still for a few seconds, did you have occasion, or did you in fact look up at that window again?
Mrs.Cabell. Not again, as I recall.
Mr.Hubert. Did you go to the hospital too?
Mrs.Cabell. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You were with your husband?
Mrs.Cabell. When we reached the hospital, the Presidential car was pulled up toward the slot ordinarily reserved for ambulances, which pulled us up a little closer to the entrance of the hospital. And as my husband jumped out of the car, he turned around and looked at me and said, "Stay in the car." And I believe at that time that Congressman Roberts got out of the car. The Texas delegation was standing around the cars at that time. And I sat in the car with our driver for quite some time.
Mr.Hubert. How long, about?
Mrs.Cabell. I cannot tell you. Time left me that day. I sat there for quite a long time. I stood up and I saw them taking the President out of the car. I saw my husband by the carriage when the Governor was taken out of the car. Then our driver, after they went into the hospital, turned the car radio on and we and the other members of the Texas delegation, Senator Yarborough, all of the others—the delegation moved back and forth from the car where I was sitting, up to the door of the hospital. It is my impression that none of them went in.
Mr.Hubert. Did you go in?
Mrs.Cabell. Yes; twice. Do you want me to tell you both times?
Mr.Hubert. Yes, ma'am.
Mrs.Cabell. Well, this is a little difficult for me to tell.
Mr.Hubert. Let me put it this way. What I am interested in is whether or not you saw Jack Ruby there. Did you know him prior to that time?
Mrs.Cabell. No.
Mr.Hubert. Of course you have seen his pictures?
Mrs.Cabell. Since; but I had never seen him before.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see him at any place that you went in the hospital, in front of the hospital, or about the hospital on that day?
Mrs.Cabell. No.
Mr.Hubert. In order to know where you were, to exclude your seeing him there, would you tell us just what places you were?
Mrs.Cabell. In the hospital?
Mr.Hubert. Were you out there for some time?
Mrs.Cabell. There came a time when it was necessary for me to find a ladies' room. I walked up to one of the many police officers at the door and I said, Officer, I am Mrs. Earle Cabell. He said, "Yes, Mrs. Cabell, I know." I have no idea which officer it was. I said, "It is necessary for me to go into the ladies' room. Can you get me in?" He said, "I can try." He had quite a good deal of trouble getting me in and identifying me. They did not let me go in until a nurse's aid was brought to the door. They did not let me stay on the first floor where the emergency section was. They took me to the left. This nurse's aid took me to the left with the police officer following, and we crossed the cafeteria and went over toward the front of the building. The nurse's aid went into the ladies' room with me. The policeman stood at the door. We went back the same way.
Mr.Hubert. Tell me who was guarding the front door so that there was some difficulty getting you in.
Mrs.Cabell. I do not know. An elderly man in shirt sleeves, that I remember. I assume he was a part of the hospital personnel. I don't really know that to be true.
Mr.Hubert. Were there police or State police or city police?
Mrs.Cabell. They were everywhere.
Mr.Hubert. But you mean they were checking people going into the hospital?
Mrs.Cabell. Yes. Then as I came in, the policeman escorted me back to our car. I sat there again, I do not know how much longer I sat, but somebody brought me a Coca-Cola. We, as you know, had nothing to eat or drink since coffee at Mr. and Mrs. Eric Jonsson's, where we gathered before going to Love Field. Then a man came up to me. I have to assume that he was a Secret Service man. He said, "Are you Mrs. Earle Cabell?" I said, "Yes." He said, "There are no ladies presently with Mrs. Kennedy. We feel that it might be nice if you go in." So I handed my partially drunk Coca-Cola to thedriver, and I went in with this man. Another thing that makes me think he had some authority was that this second time when we got to the door, this man said, "This is Mrs. Earle Cabell," and we walked right in.
Mr.Hubert. He said that to whom?
Mrs.Cabell. The man at the door.
Mr.Hubert. The same man that had been at the door before?
Mrs.Cabell. I assume it was. There was such a short time that elapsed. He took me down. You turn to the right as you went in the door down this very wide hall, and as we were going down the hall, we met my husband coming toward us going out. I looked at him and he said, "I will be back." So we walked on in to this smaller hallway which separated the emergency rooms, either side of them. Mrs. Kennedy was sitting just outside the door of Emergency Room No. 1 in a straight chair. I walked up toher——
Mr.Hubert. She was alone?
Mrs.Cabell. She was alone. There were, I am sure, Secret Service men. There was a group of men standing behind her, but she was sitting alone. I walked up to her and I said, "Mrs. Kennedy, I am Elizabeth Cabell. I wish there was something that I could do to help." And in a very dazed manner she said, "Yes, I remember you gave me the roses." And somebody put a chair by her for me and we sat there for just a few moments. And she said, "I would like a cigarette." My purse was on the floor behind my chair. I turned around to pick up my purse to give her a cigarette, and when I turned back around, she was walking into Emergency Room No. 2. I judge that it was next to the President, the room the President's body was in, and her purse was on a carriage in that emergency room. She was fumbling in her purse, and I said to her, "I have a cigarette here for you." It was exactly as though she had not heard me. She didn't answer me at all, and she kept fumbling in her purse and finally she came up with a cigarette. Then she turned to me as though she had never seen me before, but said, "But I don't have a match." And I said, "I have a match here for you." I lighted her cigarette and she turned around and walked out of that emergency room. We went back to the two chairs outside of Emergency Room No. 1 and sat down.
Just at that time I looked up and saw a Catholic priest coming toward us. It was not Father Huber. It was a man I did not recognize. I later understood he was the Catholic chaplain of the hospital. I am not sure about that. I got up and walked a few steps to meet him, and I said, "Father, take my chair by Mrs. Kennedy." Which he did do. In the meantime, my husband had come back in, and I stepped back where my husband was standing, and we stood there until the casket was wheeled out.
Mr.Hubert. Was any announcement made to Mrs. Kennedy of the death of her husband?
Mrs.Cabell. Not while I was in there. I am under the impression—you see, I was still sitting out in the car when they brought Vice President, I guess then, and Mrs. Johnson out and put them in the car and took them away.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know of the President's death when you went to Mrs. Kennedy?
Mrs.Cabell. Congressman Roberts had come back to the car and said, "He is gone."
Mr.Hubert. It is your impression that Mrs. Kennedy then knew of the death of her husband when you first came up to her?
Mrs.Cabell. That is my impression. We did not discuss it.
Mr.Hubert. Now I understand that there was a telephone call received by you that was of a threatening nature?
Mrs.Cabell. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Would you tell us about that, please, ma'am? The time and so forth?
Mrs.Cabell. Yes; it was New Year's Eve. Of necessity, the security had asked us not to be out, that so many people had come in for the New Year's Day game, that they were uneasy. There was the possibility that Chief Justice Warren might come. There was the rumor that he might come. There was therumor that the President himself might come. We knew that the President's daughters were here, so they asked us not to wander around that night. We have spent New Year's night for many years with a very close group of friends, so we invited them to our home that night, but we explained to them that early in the evening and under rather heavy security, we went downtown to the Sheraton Hotel into a private suite to greet the Under Secretary of Navy and his wife. We stayed in this group possibly 30 or 40 minutes and then we went back to our home. At that time security had been lessened in our home. There were only two men with us at all times then. It had been much heavier earlier. The men had been in our home so long that they were like members of the family almost. They knew most of our guests because they had accompanied us on the Christmas parties and festivities that we went to. We were never without them.
We did not drive our own cars for 2 months. So most of these guests were known to the security officers that were in our home that night. But I am again hazy on the time. It must have been about 11 o'clock. I walked back into our bedroom for something, and the phone rang back there. I picked it up. This man's voice—it was not a kid, it was not a drunk—said, "Mrs. Cabell?" I said, Yes. He said, "We are coming to kill that God damn mayor now." And hung up the phone.
Mr.Hubert. Tell me, do you have a listed number?
Mrs.Cabell. An unlisted number. That is what startled us.
Mr.Hubert. It is an unlisted number?
Mrs.Cabell. Yes; it is an unlisted number, and that is what startled us. I walked out of the bedroom through the living room, through the dining room, and into the kitchen and caught the eye of one of the security officers and motioned to him. He followed me back into the bedroom, and I closed the door and told him what had happened. He walked straight to the phone and called his superior officer.
Mr.Hubert. Let me ask you, did this seem to be a local call, or long distance?
Mrs.Cabell. I have no way of knowing. When I picked up the phone and said "Hello," this man's voice said, "Mrs. Cabell."
Mr.Hubert. And he said what you have just said, and that is all?
Mrs.Cabell. He hung up before I did. So Officer Beaty picked up the phone and called his superior. I had said to him, "Please ask what to do about our guests." Because there had always been the thinking among the security officers, the possibility of a bomb being thrown at the house.
Mr.Hubert. Let me ask you, was your unlisted phone number carefully guarded or kept?
Mrs.Cabell. No, no. It was given to our church. It was given to the press. They all had it. They had to talk to Earle. It was given to some organizations to which we belonged. The thinking on our part was that we wanted to be available to responsible people. It was merely the crank calls that we were trying to avoid after Earle went in office.
Mr.Hubert. So it was rather widely disseminated, and I suppose recorded by those people?
Mrs.Cabell. Who it had been given to; that's right. So it was not an impossible number to obtain. It couldn't be in Earle's position.
Mr.Storey. (after shortly entering the room). Mr. Hubert, I might say I had trouble in finding it the one time I wanted to call the mayor.
Mr.Hubert. Well, Mrs. Cabell, I have nothing more to ask you. If you have anything you would like to say concerning the subjects we have covered, or anything else pertinent to the inquiry, we would be glad to hear from you.
Mrs.Cabell. I do not know of anything that would be of any help except that from Earle's experience at Tupinamba, that somebody knew when those police cars pulled in and out of that driveway. There was always one facing the street. They were not squad cars. They were cars that the Special Service men drove. They were Galaxies, different color, but they all carried the license that people who knew about things like that could recognize them as being a police car. One evening Chief Curry called and talked to my husband and said things had been so quiet that if you and Mrs. Cabell feel all right about it, I am going to bring the boys in. And my husband said, "Now Chief, that hasalways been up to you. Whatever you think, is what we want you to do. Within 30 minutes, I would say, after the security officers and the cars had gone, a threatening call came through the police switchboard, so within another 30 minutes the security was back.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember what that was?
Mrs.Cabell. No; I cannot give you the date.
Mr.Hubert. How did you come to know of it?
Mrs.Cabell. I didn't know it until the next morning. The boys didn't come in the house that night. Earle didn't know it. We have a very trusted colored man who has been with us 26 years, and when he used his own key to come in the house next morning, I said, "Well, Phillip, I guess you miss our friends." And he said, "Mrs. Cabell, they haven't gone. They are outside." And I looked out the kitchen window and there they were. I wentout——
Mr.Hubert. You don't know, do you, whether that threatening call made reference to the fact that the security had been removed?
Mrs.Cabell. No; I do not. But the thinking on the part of the police was that somebody was watching that driveway, because the call came in within 30 minutes after the car had gone.
Mr.Hubert. Have you anything else that you wish to say?
Mrs.Cabell. Only that, and days again escape me—I think it was the day of the President's funeral, my husband was in Washington. This can be verified, because by that time all of our phone calls were recorded. The phone rang early one afternoon, and I picked it up, and this man's voice said, "Mrs. Cabell." I said "Yes." He said, "This is so-and-so—and the name I did not catch, or recall—said "I am with one of the news media. I would like to come out for an interview." Or words to that effect. And I said, "Well, Mr. Cabell is not here. You will have to talk to him about that." Then he said to me, "How heavily are you being guarded out there? Do you still have security?" And I don't know what I said, but I put it off. I passed it off. And by that time I had motioned to the security man that was in the next room, and he picked up the receiver, but the man had hung up by that time.
Mr.Hubert. You mentioned that your calls were being recorded as early as the date of the President's funeral?
Mrs.Cabell. No; earlier.
Mr.Hubert. Earlier?
Mrs.Cabell. Because the telephone men were out there within an hour after the shooting of Oswald.
Mr.Hubert. They set up a recordation system whereby all calls could be recorded?
Mrs.Cabell. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Was that still on at the time of New Year's Eve?
Mrs.Cabell. No.
Mr.Hubert. When was that removed?
Mrs.Cabell. I can't tell you. Sometime during that 2 months, but I cannot say when.
Mr.Hubert. But you do not think it was on at the time of the New Year's Eve call?
Mrs.Cabell. I am sure it wasn't, because the little recording machine, or whatever it was, hadbeen——
Mr.Hubert. Soundscriber?
Mrs.Cabell. Had been removed, and I believe I am correct in saying that that was removed at the time, and I can't give you a date, that they cut down to only two officers at a time being with us. For a long time there were two with me and two with Earle and two at the house.
Mr.Hubert. Mrs. Cabell, I don't think there was actually any conversation much before the recordation of your deposition began between us, but in any case, I think you will agree with me that nothing was covered during the unrecorded conversation we had that has not been recorded here?
Mrs.Cabell. As far as I know; that is true.
Mr.Hubert. Thank you very much, ma'am.
Mrs.Cabell. Thank you.
The testimony of Phillip L. Willis was taken at 2:30 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you raise your right hand [standing]? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Willis. I do.
Mr.Liebeler. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of the Commission's procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present if you wish to have him here. You are entitled to 3 days' notice for the hearing, and you are entitled to exercise whatever privileges there are available to you as far as not answering questions are concerned. I assume that you are prepared to go ahead with your testimony without an attorney present, because you are here without one?
Mr.Willis. Absolutely.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr.Willis. Phillip L. Willis.
Mr.Liebeler. What is your address, sir?
Mr.Willis. 2824 Ava Lane, Dallas 27, Tex.
Mr.Liebeler. When were you born?
Mr.Willis. August 2, 1918.
Mr.Liebeler. Where?
Mr.Willis. Kaufman County, Tex.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you lived in Texas throughout most of your life?
Mr.Willis. All my life, with the exception of my military service.
Mr.Liebeler. How long have you lived here in Dallas?
Mr.Willis. Since April 1, 1960.
Mr.Liebeler. What business are you engaged in, or by whom are you employed?
Mr.Willis. I am a retired major, Air Force, disabled World War II, and I am on disability retirement from the Air Force. I am an independent real estate broker.
Mr.Liebeler. It is my understanding that you were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963, at the time of the assassination; is that correct?
Mr.Willis. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell me where you were and what you saw happen, and what you did at that time?
Mr.Willis. I had a driver drop my family and I in the parkway so that we could have a chance to get a good view of the President's party, having taken my children out of school for the occasion. We were told by the policeman that they were coming down from Main Street approaching the area on Main, and I stood at the corner of Main and Houston and watched them approach. I am an amateur photographer, a poor one, but we wanted to get some good colored pictures of the President. So I photographed the President coming in front of the courthouse and making the turn onto Houston Street.
Mr.Liebeler. Where did you station yourself at first? Were you at the corner, you say?
Mr.Willis. At the corner of Houston and Main.
Mr.Liebeler. So that you sawhim——
Mr.Willis. Across from the county jail on the parkway there near the esplanade.
Mr.Liebeler. So you saw the motorcade coming down Main Street, did you?
Mr.Willis. Yes; we could see it for a block or two.
Mr.Liebeler. Then the motorcade turned onto Houston and you took some pictures at that time?
Mr.Willis. I remained there until I got the shot of the President approaching the turn onto Houston Street, and being a personal friend of then Vice President Lyndon Johnson, we were anxious to get him in one, and did. Then I took a picture as they turned onto Houston Street. Then another one from the rear after they proceeded down Houston approaching the turn they were to make onto Elm. Then I immediately ran across the plaza, raced over to Elm Street and stationed myself on the curb in front of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr.Liebeler. You were there when the motorcade made a left turn on Houston and went down Elm Street; is that correct?
Mr.Willis. Yes; and I photographed the President. I was standing in front of the curb, as is shown in Life magazine, on the edge of the street, and I photographed the presidential car at not more than 10 feet because I didn't get the front or the rear of the car. I just got the occupants in the center. I was that close.
Mr.Liebeler. Now you have indicated that you are depicted in a picture which is in the John F. Kennedy Memorial Edition of Life magazine in a picture that you said you were in the upper left-hand corner of page 4; is that correct?
Mr.Willis. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You are the individual who stands almost directly behind the first motorcycle policeman in that picture, and you are shown with a camera?
Mr.Willis. With my camera raised; yes, sir. The little girl in the red dress and white scarf and coat is my daughter.
Mr.Liebeler. The farthest person in the right in the back of that picture?
Mr.Willis. The farthest person in that picture.
Mr.Liebeler. Now did you stand at that particular spot the entire time, or did you move down Elm Street?
Mr.Willis. No, sir; I took that picture just seconds before the first shot was fired, to get back close up. Then I started down the street, and the regular weekly edition of Life magazine came out and shows me in about three different pictures going down the street. Then my next shot was taken at the very—in fact, the shot caused me to squeeze the camera shutter, and I got a picture of the President as he was hit with the first shot. So instantaneous, in fact, that the crowd hadn't had time to react.
Mr.Liebeler. Now you have, as I understand it, a series of 12 slides, which apparently have been prepared by something called Phil Willis Enterprises, and which I understand is being marketed, at least in the Dallas area?
Mr.Willis. We haven't done anything with them as yet, but I am the only one, I am told, who has a complete set of the prints covering the last 25 seconds of the President's life and the assassination and the tragedy following.
I was so shocked I didn't sell any, like everyone did at the moment. And the same people who bought those said they would have been invaluable had I brought them to them, but it didn't dawn on me to do that. And later there has been so many requests because of the historical nature, that we felt compelled to make them available to the public.
Mr.Liebeler. I have here a picture that has been marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which I now show you and I suggest to you that it is one of the pictures that is a picture made from one of the slides.
Mr.Willis. I made that picture.
Mr.Liebeler. You made that picture yourself?
Mr.Willis. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. That is the same as slide No. 5? In your series of slides?
Mr.Willis. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell us when that picture was made?
Mr.Willis. That picture was made at the very instant that the first shot was fired. As a matter of fact, the fellow standing on the ledge under the right-hand corner of the Stemmons Highway sign is a gentleman who took the last picturesthat appeared in Life, and his pictures showed that this instant with this sign in between the photographer and the President, shows that at this instant he had already grabbed his throat.
This was pointed out to the Secret Service and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Picture No. 2 will verify that, in Life magazine. You see the highway sign that he has the rear of, is the one I have the front of. And as he approached this same sign in this film, he has already grabbed his throat. That is verified by that fact.
Mr.Liebeler. Referring to the pictures on page 4 of the memorial edition of Life magazine. Picture No. 1 shows you standing, as we have already indicated, standing back with your camera?
Mr.Willis. Picture 2 shows the President just as the car comes from behind this sign, and it shows that he has already reached for his throat at that time.
Mr.Liebeler. The sign in question is one that reads "Stemmons Freeway Keep Right", and the front of that sign appears in the picture that you took which is marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1?
Mr.Willis. The only one in that vicinity. It has to be the same one. You will also note in my first picture, he is facing the outside of the street and smiling and waving, and he had already turned his head the other way when I have the picture in question here from the rear.
That same picture from the other side of the street in Life shows he has grabbed his throat when they proceeded to that point of the sign in question.
Mr.Liebeler. Go through that again. I didn't understand it. Let me remind you of this. When you mention a picture, let's try and refer to them by numbers, because if you do that, I won't have to repeat it again, because we have to get the numbers down on the record. You were making a point just a minute ago about something that I didn't understand. You were referring to some of the pictures in Life magazine, and also to Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which is the picture you took.
Mr.Willis. All right, sir, Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which is a copy of the picture I took, shows the President's car had proceeded almost past the "Stemmons Freeway Keep Right" sign. Referring back to panel No. 2 of the Life Memorial Edition of Life magazine on page 4, it shows that Mrs. Kennedy has her hand over her mouth, and the President has already grabbed his throat. That picture shows that his car has not passed the Stemmons sign completely.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mr.Willis. Referring back to Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which I took, the President's car in fact has passed the Stemmons sign, and he has turned the opposite direction from the previous picture that I took close up, and it proves without question that at this instant the President had been hit.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, you mentioned the picture that you took, the other picture that you took close up. Is that included in your set of slides here?
Mr.Willis. Yes, sir; it is slide No. 4, which you see doesn't include the front or the rear of the President's car, but the center. That is proving how close it was.
Mr.Liebeler. Picture No. 4 in your group of slides was taken shortly before picture No. 5 was taken, is that right?
Mr.Willis. Yes, sir; not more than 3 seconds.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know which picture you were taking or you took at the time that is shown here in panel No. 1 of this memorial edition of Life magazine?
Mr.Willis. Yes, sir; the number just mentioned, slide No. 4, the closeup of the President directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr.Liebeler. Now from the time that you took No. 4, and when you took No. 4, you were standing as shown in picture No. 1 in Life magazine?
Mr.Willis. Correct.
Mr.Liebeler. What did you do before you took No. 5, which we have marked here as Hudson Exhibit No. 1? Did you move down the street, or were you standing in the same place, or do you remember?
Mr.Willis. No, sir; as human nature would guide in an instance of this importance, I moved down the street slightly to try to get another view, and, ofcourse, I had the camera looking through the viewfinder to try to get another picture of him before he went out of range. I moved as far as I could within that 3 seconds.
Mr.Liebeler. So you are not able to tell us exactly where you were when you took the picture that we have here as Hudson Exhibit No. 1, but it was a little bit farther on down Elm Street, still on the grassy area described by Elm and Main Street; is that correct?
Mr.Willis. Yes, sir; I can verify that where I was going back to Life magazine again, because this picture No. 2 on page 4 of the John F. Kennedy Memorial Edition of Life, there is a tree in the background. The only tree in that immediate vicinity on that side of the street. And the shadow of that tree is shown in slide No. 5 that I took, which would show my position.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes. I see you would have to study just from where the sun was coming, but it could be determined where you were standing, and we could also apparently determine it by lining it up with across the street?
Mr.Willis. Off the record. Let me say this. You see in No. 1 shot where I am shown, you can see this shadow on the ground from this tree. This little bush—there is the shadow from the tree. This tree is on the ground, so if you look in my picture here, you can see the shadow in that picture. So you see that I did move down approximately this far.
Mr.Liebeler. All right. Now, you are certain that the first shot was fired at approximately the time or shortly at approximately the time you took the picture that has been marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1; is that right?
Mr.Willis. I am positive.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember hearing the shot?
Mr.Willis. Absolutely. I, having been in World War II, and being a deer hunter hobbyist, I would recognize a high-powered rifle immediately.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you recognize this as a high-powered rifle?
Mr.Willis. Absolutely.
Mr.Liebeler. And you heard it just about the time you took the picture that has been marked?
Mr.Willis. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. Prior to the time you took the picture, which is marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1?
Mr.Willis. Absolutely.
Mr.Liebeler. How many shots were fired altogether, Mr. Willis?
Mr.Willis. Three shots.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any question about that at all?
Mr.Willis. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you follow the car down Elm Street after you took the picture, which we have marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1?
Mr.Willis. I proceeded down the street and didn't take any other pictures instantly, because the three shots were fired approximately about 2 seconds apart, and I knew my little daughters were running along beside the Presidential car, and I was immediately concerned about them, and I was screaming for them to come back, and they didn't hear me. But I was concerned about them immediately, because I knew something tragic had happened, and the shots didn't ring out long like a rifle shot that is fired into midair in a distance. I knew it hit something, and it couldn't have been a firecracker or anything like that, so it impressed me, I remember, and after I found my daughters, I saw they were heading back toward their mother.
Mr.Liebeler. Where was she?
Mr.Willis. She was back in the crowd looking through this concrete structure. How do you refer to that?
Mr.Liebeler. Well, your wife was back closer toward the intersection of Main Street and Houston Street?
Mr.Willis. No; it is a very short distance when you stand in here. No; that is the one across the street—no; here she was. She was in between Main, and Elm Streets, but real near Elm Street. In fact, she was only a few feet back from my daughters. She wasn't more than 40 feet from where the President was hit.
Mr.Liebeler. So she was toward the triple underpass from the concrete structure on Dealey Plaza?
Mr.Willis. She was inside the concrete structure looking through an opening.
Mr.Liebeler. Looking toward the triple underpass?
Mr.Willis. Toward the Texas School Book Depository where she had a clear view, and there were surprisingly few people there at that time—at that moment—and none in between her and the street to block her vision.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you actually observe the President when he was hit in the head?
Mr.Willis. No, sir; I did not. I couldn't see that well, and I was more concerned about the shots coming from that building. The minute the third shot was fired, I screamed, hoping the policeman would hear me, to ring that building because it had to come from there. Being directly across the street from the building, made it much more clear to those standing there than the people who were on the side of the street where the building was.
Mr.Liebeler. So you thought you had picked out a particular building at the time when you heard the shots?
Mr.Willis. Absolutely.
Mr.Liebeler. What building was that?
Mr.Willis. The Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr.Liebeler. You were pretty sure?
Mr.Willis. I felt certain. I even looked for smoke, and I knew it came from high up.
Mr.Liebeler. How did you know that?
Mr.Willis. I even observed the clock on top of the building, it was 12:33 when I looked up there.
Mr.Liebeler. The clock on top of the School Book Depository?
Mr.Willis. There is a Hertz sign on top of the building, and it alternates the time of day and the temperature, and when I looked up, it was 12:33, and the temperature was 68 degrees, as shown in my slide on No. 12.
Mr.Liebeler. So you did not actually observe the President at the time he was hit in the head?
Mr.Willis. No, sir; I was just taking a picture of him, and the presidential party in the car come through my viewfinder and my camera. But my little daughter ran back and said, "Oh, Daddy, they have shot our President. His whole head blew up, and it looked like a red halo."
Mr.Liebeler. Which one? Is this the girl that is here today?
Mr.Willis. The little one was the one that made that remark. My youngest daughter, Rosemary. The one that is with me today also saw it, and she went back and told her mother the same thing. And her mother said, "Yes; I saw it."
Mr.Liebeler. Now, did you see anything hitting in the street along the President's car as it went down Elm Street?
Mr.Willis. No, sir; I did not.
Mr.Liebeler. You say there were three shots fired? You heard three shots fired?
Mr.Willis. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you think that the President had been hit by the first shot?
Mr.Willis. I didn't really know, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You couldn't tell whether he was hit by the first shot? You couldn't tell whether he had been hit by the first shot or the second shot or the third shot, or by how many shots he had been hit?
Mr.Willis. No, sir; except this one thing might be worthy of mention. When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and looking straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction, and he more or less faced the other side of the street and leaned forward, which caused me to wonder, although I could not see anything positively. It did cause me to wonder.
Mr.Liebeler. You say that the President looked toward his left; is that correct? Toward the side of Elm Street that you are standing on, or which way?
Mr.Willis. In slide No. 4 he was looking pretty much toward—straight ahead, and she was looking more to the left, which would be my side of the street. Then when the first shot was fired, she turned to the right toward him and he more or less slumped forward, and it caused me to wonder if he were hit, although I couldn't say.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Liebeler. In order to clarify some of the discussion we have had about the various number of slides, I want to mark a set of your slides as Willis Exhibit No. 1 and I have initialed a set of these, Mr. Willis, with my own initials, and I will ask you to do the same thing for the purpose of identification so we know what we are talking about when we refer to this exhibit.
(Mr. Willis marks initials.)
Mr.Liebeler. We have already established that the picture that has been marked as Hudson's Exhibit No. 1 is a print made from the negative or from slide No. 5 on Willis' Exhibit No. 1; is that correct?
Mr.Willis. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have occasion to look up toward the railroad tracks that go across the triple underpass at any time, at about the time the President was shot?
Mr.Willis. Yes; I did, after the third shot was fired.
Mr.Liebeler. Was there anybody up there? Did you see anybody up there on those railroad tracks?
Mr.Willis. Yes, sir; I had noticed before the President's arrival that there were spectators up there, but there were also policemen up there.
Mr.Liebeler. You did see policemen up there?
Mr.Willis. Yes, sir; there were definitely policemen up there among the spectators.
Mr.Liebeler. About how many spectators would you say were up there? Was there a big crowd?
Mr.Willis. No, sir; there was no big crowd in the area, actually. But I would say, and this is strictly a wild guess, maybe 2 dozen.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you see any evidence of any shots having been fired from that direction?
Mr.Willis. No, sir; there was no doubt in my mind. I saw people falling on the ground and police officers racing over toward a concrete wall.
Mr.Liebeler. Across the street from Elm Street?
Mr.Willis. Across the street from Elm Street on the same side as the School Book Depository, which goes down the hill toward the underpass, and the policemen started going over there, called to see if someone, evidently thinking it came from that direction, and then is when I started to ring this building. I knew it came from high above directly across the street from me, and that is the one thing I was absolutely positive about.
Mr.Liebeler. You made that judgment from the sound of the shots?
Mr.Willis. From the sound, absolutely. And this may be verified by the fact that I took several pictures of the crowd immediately around that building.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; I notice.
Mr.Willis. I had no doubt about that, because I was that certain in my own mind.
Mr.Liebeler. I don't think I have any other questions about these pictures, unless you can think of something else that you think I should have asked you about, that I have forgotten about.
Mr.Willis. In slide No. 6, people were still on the ground and I took that picture, knowing that the party had come to a temporary halt before proceeding on to the underpass, and I have an arrow there which shows the back of the Secret Service agent climbing onto the back of the presidential car.
Mr.Liebeler. That is that far in the background, way in the back of the picture, or down toward the underpass of the street?
Mr.Willis. Yes; that would be the background.
Mr.Liebeler. I think I would like to ask your daughter about three or four questions about what she saw of it. We might just bring her in while you are still here.