In the process of getting the location straight, and I think it was at this point I was probably using 19 call number, because I was riding with him, we got the information correctly that the shooting had actually been on East 10th, and we were en route there.
We crossed the Commerce Street viaduct and turned, made a right turn to go under the viaduct on North Beckley to go up to 10th Street. As we passed, just before we got to Colorado on Beckley, an ambulance with a police car behind it passed us en route to Methodist Hospital.
We went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car parked against the right or the south curb on 10th Street, with a pool of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car.
Tippit had already been removed. The first man that came up to me, he said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160 to 170 pounds, had on a jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown bushy hair."
At this point the first squad rolled up, and that would have been squad 105, which had been dispatched from downtown. An officer named Joe Poe, and I believe his partner was a boy named Jez.
I told him to stay at the scene and guard the car and talk to as many witnesses as they could find to the incident, and that we were going to start checking the area.
Mr.Belin. Now, let me interrupt you here, sergeant. Do you remember the name of the person that gave you the description?
Mr.Hill. No. I turned him over to Poe, and I didn't even get his name.
Mr.Belin. Had anyone at anytime given you any cartridge cases of any kind?
Mr.Hill. No; they had not. This came much later.
Mr.Belin. Go ahead if you would, please.
Mr.Hill. All right, I took the key to Poe's car. Another person came up, and we also referred him to Poe, that told us the man had run over into the funeral home parking lot. That would be Dudley Hughes' parking lot in the 400 block of East Jefferson—and taken off his jacket.
Mr.Belin. You turned this man over to Poe, too?
Mr.Hill. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. I notice in the radio log transcript, which is marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, that at 1:26 p.m., between 1:26 p.m., and 1:32 p.m., there was a call from No. 19 to 531. 531 is your home number, I believe? Your radio home station?
Mr.Hill. Yes.
Mr.Belin. That says, "One of the men here at the service station that saw him seems to think he is in this block, 400 block East Jefferson, behind his service station. Give me some more squads over here." "Several squads check out." Was that you?
Mr.Hill. That was Owens.
Mr.Belin. Were you calling in at all?
Mr.Hill. No. That is Bud Owens.
Mr.Belin. You had left Owens' car at this time?
Mr.Hill. I left Owens' car and had 105 car at this time.
Mr.Belin. Where did you go?
Mr.Hill. At this time, about the time this broadcast came out, I went around and met Owens. I whipped around the block. I went down to the first intersection east of the block where all this incident occurred, and made a right turn, and traveled one block, and came back up on Jefferson.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Hill. And met Owens in front of two large vacant houses on the north side of Jefferson that are used for the storage of secondhand furniture.
By then Owens had information also that some citizen had seen the man running towards these houses.
At this time Sergeant Owens was there; I was there; Bill Alexander was there; it was probably about this time that C. T. Walker, an accident investigator got there; and with Sergeant Owens and Walker and a couple more officers standing outside, Bill Alexander and I entered the front door of the house that would have been to the west—it was the farthest to the west of the two—shook out the lower floor, made sure nobody was there, and made sure that all the entrances from either inside or outside of the building to the second floor were securely locked.
Then we went back over to the house next door, which would have been the first one east of this one, and made sure it was securely locked, both upstairs and downstairs. There was no particular sign of entry on this building at all. At this point we came back out to the street, and I asked had Owens received any information from the hospital on Tippit.
And he said they had just told him on channel 2 that he was dead. I got back in 105's car, went back around to the original scene, gave him his car keys back, and left his car there, and at this point he came up to me with a Winston cigarette package.
Mr.Belin. Who was this?
Mr.Hill. This was Poe.
Mr.Belin. You went back to the Tippit scene?
Mr.Hill. Right.
Mr.Belin. You went back to 400 East 10th Street?
Mr.Hill. Right. And Poe showed me a Winston cigarette package that contained three spent jackets from shells that he said a citizen had pointed out to him where the suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these in thegrass, and that the citizen had picked them up and put them in the Winston package.
I told Poe to maintain the chain of evidence as small as possible, for him to retain these at that time, and to be sure and mark them for evidence, and then turn them over to the crime lab when he got there, or to homicide.
The next place I went was, I walked up the street about half a block to a church. That would have been on the northeast corner of 10th Street in the 400 block, further west of the shooting, and was preparing to go in when there were two women who came out and said they were employees inside and had been there all the time. I asked them had they seen anybody enter the church, because we were still looking for possible places for the suspect to hide. And they said nobody passed them, nobody entered the church, but they invited us to check the rest of the doors and windows and go inside if we wanted to.
An accident investigator named Bob Apple was at the location at that time, and we were standing there together near his car when the call came out that the suspect had been seen entering the Texas Theatre.
Mr.Belin. What did you do then?
Mr.Hill. We both got in Apple's car and went to Jefferson, made a right on Jefferson, headed west from our location, and pulled up as close to the front of the theatre as we could. There were already two or three officers at the location. I asked if it was covered off at the back.
They said, "We got the building completely covered off."
I entered the right or the east most door to the south side of the theatre, and in the process or in the meantime, from the time we heard the first call to the time we got to the theatre, the call came on over the radio that the suspect was believed to be in the balcony.
We went up to the balcony, ran up the stairs, which would have been also on the east side. And the picture was still on. I remember yelling to either the manager or the assistant manager or an employee, maybe just an usher, to turn on as many lights as they could. Went up to the balcony, and Detective Bentley was up there, and a uniform officer, and here again there was another deputy sheriff. He was a uniform man.
There were some six people in the balcony, and we checked them out and none of them appeared to fit the physical description that we had of the man that shot Tippit.
I went over and opened the fire escape door or fire exit door and stepped out on the fire escape, and Capt. C. E. Talbert was down on the ground. He said, "Did you find anything?"
And I said, "Not up here."
He said, "Have you checked the roof?"
There was a ladder leading from the fire escape that goes on up to the top of the roof, and the deputy sheriff said, "I will get that for you." And he started up it.
The captain said words to the effect that, "Make sure you don't overlook him in there." So we went back inside and we didn't find him in the balcony. We started downstairs and these would have been the west stairs on the west side of the balcony. About the time I got to the lower floor, I heard a shout similar to a "I've got him," which came from the lower floor. And I ran through the west door from the lobby into the downstairs part of the theatre proper.
Mr.Belin. Let me stop you right there. When you say it is the west door, as I remember this theatre, the entrance faces to the south, is that correct?
Mr.Hill. Right.
Mr.Belin. But then when you walked in, you walked in straight headed north, and then you had to turn to the right?
Mr.Hill. So once you turned, I went up. That would have made me come down the north, go up the south stairway to the balcony, and come down the north stairway.
Mr.Belin. All right. Now, you got down to the first floor. As you go in to face the screen, the right side of the theatre when you are facing the screen, you are facing roughly east?
Mr.Hill. Right side of the theatre would have been south.
Mr.Belin. South as you face the screen. All right, now.
Mr.Hill. So I went through the north lower door.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Hill. Came down the north stairway, and the commotion would have been to my right or just south of the center of the theatre near the back. Went over, and as I ran to them I saw some officers struggling with a white male.
I reached out and grabbed the left arm of the suspect, and just before I got to him I heard somebody yell, "Look out, he's got a gun."
I was on the same row with the suspect. The man on the row immediately behind him was an officer named Hutson. McDonald was on the other side of the suspect from me in the same aisle.
Two officers, C. T. Walker and Ray Hawkins, were in the row in front of us holding the suspect from the front and forcing him backwards and down into the seat. And to McDonald's right reaching over, and I don't recall which row he was on, was an officer named Bob Carroll. And then Paul Bentley and K. E. Lyons, who was Carroll's partner, they were both in the special service bureau, also was there. They came up at various intervals while all this was going on.
We finally got the man subdued to the point where we had control of him and his legs pinned and his arms pinned. I said, "Let's handcuff him." And being that I was working in plainclothes and working in personnel, didn't have a pair of handcuffs, and I asked Hawkins if he had. And he said, "Yes."
And I said, "Let's get them."
And Hawkins and I handcuffed him while the others held him.
Mr.Belin. You said you were working in plainclothes?
Mr.Hill. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Did you have any hat on?
Mr.Hill. Yes; I did have a hat.
Mr.Belin. I want to hand you what I will mark as G. L. Hill Deposition Exhibit A, and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr.Hill. Yes, sir; this is a picture that was made about the time when we were actually putting the handcuffs on the suspect in the theatre. That may have been a split second before or a split second after, or right as we completed the putting on of the handcuffs.
Mr.Belin. Do you recognize any people in there?
Mr.Hill. This would have been the suspect [pointing].
Mr.Belin. Now, the suspect is a man who you can see parts of the profile from the left side of his face. He appears to be seated or lower than the others?
Mr.Hill. Lower than the other people in the picture.
Mr.Belin. Then there is a person with a hat on to the right.
Mr.Hill. To the immediate right of the suspect, and that is me.
Mr.Belin. Then there is a man with a cigar who is looking over the suspect?
Mr.Hill. That is Detective Paul Bentley.
Mr.Belin. Now there is a person with light-colored hair that appears to have hishands——
Mr.Hill. That would be C. T. Walker.
Mr.Belin. Then there is another person that is in the extreme left-foreground part of the picture. Do you know who that is?
Mr.Hill. Capt. W. R. Westbrook.
Mr.Belin. Then a party with a hat on. Do you know who that is?
Mr.Hill. I have no idea.
Mr.Belin. That is to the left?
Mr.Hill. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Then there is, you can barely see maybe a police hat. Is that anything you can recognize?
Mr.Hill. Not from that; no, sir.
Mr.Belin. All right, go ahead, sir.
You say that you and Ray Hawkins handcuffed the suspect?
Mr.Hill. At about this time Captain Westbrook and a man who was later in the day identified to me as, I believe his name was Barnett, an FBIagent——
Mr.Belin. Would it be Barrett?
Mr.Hill. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember his first name?
Mr.Hill. Bob was identified to me later in the day by Captain Westbrook. Came in from, I presume they came in from the north fire exit, which would have actually been coming in from outside, and came over to us, and Captain Westbrook instructed us to get the man out of there as soon as possible.
And at the same time instructed some of the other uniform officers to stay there and protect the scene, and call the crime lab. This was the actual scene where the arrest was made.
Mr.Belin. Let me stop you right there. Do you know how this FBI agent happened to be there at the time?
Mr.Hill. I heard later, and—but not actually to my own knowledge, that he was riding with Captain Westbrook.
To my knowledge, I don't know this, but I understand he had ridden out from town with Captain Westbrook, that he was gravitating toward the incident in Oak Cliff, and had arrived at the theatre just possibly before we came in, or right after we went in, and was still outside.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Hill. We started moving the suspect down the aisle, which would have been walking him north to the exit on that side until we got to the aisle that would have been dividing the center section and the north section of the theatre.
And there we formed a more or less wedge formation with C. T. Walker in front, Bob Carroll, I believe was on the suspect's left, K. E. Lyons was on his right, and Paul Bentley and I were to the rear.
I was on the left. I would have been to the suspect's left-rear side.
Paul Bentley would have been to the right-rear side.
At this point this is the first time I remember encountering any newspapermen or cameras, but as we walked into the lobby there was a man shooting movies.
Mr.Belin. Movies?
Mr.Hill. He was from channel 8, but who he was, I don't know. He was a short, rather heavy-set fellow with kinky hair. This I remember about him.
We walked the suspect out the right front or the north door. No, wait a minute, we have lost our directions again. We walked him out the west door of the theatre into a squad car, which was out front. Some of the officers that were still outside had the crowd parted back to where nobody got to us or to the suspect.
But there were shouts at this time from the crowd of, "That is him. We ought to kill him. String him up. Hang him.", et cetera and so on.
Mr.Belin. Any other calls from the crowd?
Mr.Hill. Not that I can recall. There was quite a bit of confusion, but we kept moving.
Mr.Belin. Let me stop you right there. You mentioned that when you were coming down from the balcony to the first floor, or in the process of going into the first floor, you heard an officer or someone yell something along the effect, "I've got him."
Mr.Hill. Right.
Mr.Belin. Did you hear anyone else yell or make any other statements?
First, I will ask you this. Did you hear the suspect make any statement of any kind?
Mr.Hill. Not any distinguishable statement that I can specifically recall. Later in the course of trying to piece this thing together for a report, I believe it was McDonald and Hutson that stated, and we put it in the report that way, that the suspect yelled, "This is it."
Mr.Belin. Did you hear that with your own ears? That you can remember?
Mr.Hill. No, sir; not as a distinguishable specific "This is it," no.
As much confusion and all going on, I didn't distinguish that. Now if we can back up a little bit to where we made the, got him handcuffed in the theatre, before we started moving out with him, he started, Oswald or the suspect at this point, we didn't know who he was, so we will keep on calling him the suspect,started making statements about "I want a lawyer. I know my rights. Typical police brutality. Why are you doing this to me."
As as we continued to move him down the aisle out to the aisle dividing the two sections, out into the lobby of the theatre, he began yelling words similar to, "Typical police brutality."
And once we got actually outside the door of the theatre, from there to the period of time that we got to the car, with all the crowd and commotion and all, I don't recall any further statements of his until we got in the car.
Mr.Belin. All right, let me stop there before you testify about getting into the car. Do you have anything else to add to the statement prior to getting into the car?
Mr.Hill. Not that I can recall.
Mr.Belin. Did you hear the suspect say anything while you were trying to subdue him, or, "I am not resisting arrest?"
Mr.Hill. No; I don't recall a statement to that effect.
Mr.Belin. Did you hear any officer say anything to the suspect?
Mr.Hill. About the time we got him subdued and handcuffed, I know that Hutson asked me about did I hear the gun click.
Hutson was the one that was behind him and was pulling him backward, off balance. He was probably, as near as I could determine from the position, was probably the second officer to him.
In other words, McDonald made the initial contact, and then Hutson and then probably Walker and Hawkins with Walker, and then Hawkins, in that order, getting into the scuffle attempting to subdue him and keep him from using the gun.
Mr.Belin. What did you reply to this question?
Mr.Hill. I told him no. Because apparently this had happened in the interim from the time of the first yell until I got there, and with the scuffling of feet, unless you would be right at it, I don't know that you would hear it.
Mr.Belin. Did you hit the suspect at all?
Mr.Hill. No; I did not.
Mr.Belin. Did anyone else hit the suspect?
Mr.Hill. No one that I know of. When we got him subdued, he had a small laceration on the left eyebrow, and what appeared to be a bruise on the upper-left eyebrow and down along his check, but an actual lick, to see this done, I did not see.
Mr.Belin. Did you hear any police officer make any remark such as "Kill a policeman, will you," or something along that line?
Mr.Hill. No, sir; not at this point I didn't. There was a—youwant——
Mr.Belin. Let's stop there before we get in the car.
Mr.Hill. There were some statements made in the car similar to this, in talking about killing a policeman, but I didn't hear any at the time in the theatre or from the theatre to the car.
Mr.Belin. I want to try to cut off this thing in segments. Did you hear any policeman make any other statements to him during this scuffle?
Mr.Hill. No; everybody was saying, "Look out," and "Get this arm," or "Watch that leg," or "Make sure you've got a good hold on him."
But as far as any direct quotes to the suspect, or him being called anything such as a cop killer or statements that you have killed a police officer, you have killed a cop, or anything of that type, I did not hear any.
Mr.Belin. Did you see the suspect hitting any police officer?
Mr.Hill. Did I see the suspect hitting a police officer?
Mr.Belin. Yes.
Mr.Hill. No, sir; I did not. I saw his left arm flying about wildly about the time when I got there. That is what I latched on to, but I didn't actually identify any direct blows.
Mr.Belin. Did you see any movements of the suspect other than the left arm flailing?
Mr.Hill. He was fighting and turning and making an attempt to free himself of the hold that the officers had on him. As to actually hitting anybody or to actually seeing the suspect with a gun in his hand, I did not.
Mr.Belin. I hand you what has been marked as "G. L. Hill Deposition Exhibit B." State if you know what this is.
Mr.Hill. This is known to be a picture that was made still inside the theatre as we were moving down the aisle, I believe, to get him to the aisle that divided the two sections.
Now specifically, the exact point in the theatre where this was made, I don't know.
Mr.Belin. Do you recognize anything?
Mr.Hill. There are three people in this picture that I recognize. The officer with the white uniform hat on that is in the foreground looking at the picture, would be to the left side, is C. T. Walker. The suspect, and what is an open collar, and what appears to be a T-shirt from here, looking almost directly at the camera with his face practically covered by the officer's cap, is a man later identified to us as Lee Harvey Oswald.
And the man in the suit looking at the camera with a cigar in his mouth is Detective Paul Bentley.
There is, to Mr. Bentley's left, part of another officer that is apparently wearing a suit with only part of his suit and his shirt and his left hand showing. That cannot be recognized, but I will have to admit I think it is me.
And there is a faint image there, if you get the light—that is what I am trying to see—very faintly—if we had a—yes, that is going to be me. What we need is to get the light in at an angle.
Mr.Belin. If you hold it a little bit to your right?
Mr.Hill. Yes; that is going to be me.
Mr.Belin. Do you know who this person is with the helmet at the extreme left of the person with the helmet?
Mr.Hill. I do not recognize him specifically, but just trying to identify that much of him, I would say it could be an officer named L. E. Gray, but I can't make positive identification.
Mr.Belin. Okay, sergeant.
By the way, what is the suspect wearing? You mentioned a T-shirt in the picture.
Do you remember what else he had on?
Mr.Hill. He had on a dark—I don't recall it being a solid brown—shirt, but it was a dark-brownish-looking sports shirt, and dark trousers. This I specifically remember.
Mr.Belin. Any jacket?
Mr.Hill. No, sir; he didn't have a jacket on at this time.
Mr.Belin. All right, go ahead.
Mr.Hill. I understand a light-colored jacket was found in the parking lot of the funeral home, as a man had previously stated, but I don't recall actually seeing this jacket.
Mr.Belin. All right, anything else that anyone else said prior to the time you got to the car?
Mr.Hill. Not that I can recall, sir; other than, as I was saying, as we went out, the crowd was jeering, making some threats and calling out things.
If at this time the suspect said anything, I didn't hear him.
And we were moving quite rapidly to get him into the car.
Mr.Belin. Handing you what has been marked "G. L. Hill Exhibit C," I will ask you to state if you know what this is?
Mr.Hill. This is a picture of the Texas Theatre on West Jefferson, and it is a picture that I believe was made after we left the location with the suspect.
Mr.Belin. Why do you say that?
Mr.Hill. Because the car that we left with the suspect in was parked right here.
Mr.Belin. You are pointing to a position ahead of the Dallas Police Car No. 151, which appears in the picture?
Mr.Hill. That's right.
Mr.Belin. Would that be about the size of the crowd that was there, as you remember it?
Mr.Hill. The crowd was split up into two groups at that time, on each side of the theatre entrance.
Mr.Belin. You mean by the time you brought the suspect out?
Mr.Hill. Yes; the area immediately in front of the theatre looking to the car was open at the time.
Mr.Belin. Who opened it?
Mr.Hill. The crowd had been kept back by some officers who had been left outside to cover off the front of the theatre when the rest of us entered.
Mr.Belin. Apart from the fact that the crowd was split when you led the suspect out, does this appear to be about the number of people there?
Mr.Hill. No, sir. I would say probably this picture appears to me to contain 75 to 100 people, and I would say probably at the time that we came out of the theatre, by just glancing on both sides as we moved between the two groups to the car, I would estimate the crowd was probably about 200.
Mr.Belin. All right; anything else up to the time you got to the car that anyone said or did that you haven't related, that you can remember now?
Mr.Hill. Not that I can recall, sir.
Mr.Belin. All right; now, let's pick up what happened from the time you started, with the time you opened the doors of the car to put the suspect in the car.
Mr.Hill. Officer Bentley—the suspect was put in the right rear door of the squad car and was instructed to move over to the middle. C. T. Walker got into the rear seat and would have been sitting on the right rear.
Paul Bentley went around the car and got in the left rear door and sat on that side.
Mr.Belin. That would have been from the left to the right, Bentley, Oswald, and Walker? Or Bentley, the suspect, and Walker?
Mr.Hill. K. E. Lyons got in the right front. I entered the door from the driver's side and got in the middle of the front seat.
Mr.Belin. And being that he had the keys to the car, Bob Carroll drove the vehicle.
Mr.Hill. As he started to get in the car, he handed me a pistol, which he identified as the one that had been taken from the suspect in the theatre.
Mr.Belin. When did he identify this to you?
Mr.Hill. I asked him was this his. He said, "No, it is the suspect's"
Mr.Belin. When did he do that?
Mr.Hill. As soon as he handed it to me.
Mr.Belin. When was that?
Mr.Hill. Right as I sat down in the car, he apparently had it in his belt, and as he started to sit down, he handed it to me. I was already in the car and seated.
Mr.Belin. Now I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 143. Would you state if you know what this is?
Mr.Hill. This is a .38 caliber revolver. Smith & Wesson, with a 2" barrel that would contain six shells. It is an older gun that has been blue steeled, and has a worn wooden handle.
Mr.Belin. Have you ever seen this gun before?
Mr.Hill. I am trying to see my mark on it to make sure, sir. I don't recall specifically where I marked it, but I did mark it, if this is the one. I don't remember where I did mark it, now.
Here it is, Hill right here, right in this crack.
Mr.Belin. Officer, you have just pointed out a place which I will identify as a metal portion running along the butt of the gun. Can you describe it any more fully?
Mr.Hill. It would be to the inside of the pistol grip holding the gun in the air. It would begin under the trigger guard to where the last name H-i-l-l is scratched in the metal.
Mr.Belin. Who put that name in there?
Mr.Hill. I did.
Mr.Belin. When did you do that?
Mr.Hill. This was done at approximately 4 p.m., the afternoon of Friday, November 22, 1963, in the personnel office of the police department.
Mr.Belin. Did you keep that gun in your possession until you scratched your name on it?
Mr.Hill. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Belin. Was this gun the gun that Officer Carroll handed to you?
Mr.Hill. And identified to me as the suspect's weapon.
Mr.Belin. This is what has now been marked as Commission Exhibit 143, is that correct?
Mr.Hill. Yes, sir; that is what it says.
Mr.Belin. It also says the number on this sack in kind of a red ink or something "C15" on it, too, is that right?
Mr.Hill. It has C15, and on the other side it has 176-G, whatever that is.
Mr.Belin. And then we have marked Commission Exhibit 143?
Mr.Hill. Right.
Mr.Belin. Now, you said as the driver of the car, Bob Carroll, got in the car, he handed this gun to you?
Mr.Hill. Right, sir.
Mr.Belin. All right, then, would you tell us what happened? What was said and what was done?
Mr.Hill. Then I broke the gun open to see how many shells it contained and how many live rounds it had in it.
Mr.Belin. How many did you find?
Mr.Hill. There were six in the chambers of the gun. One of them had an indention in the primer that appeared to be caused by the hammer. There were five others. All of the shells at this time had indentions.
All of the shells appeared to have at one time or another scotch tape on them because in an area that would have been the width of a half inch strip of scotch tape, there was kind of a bit of lint and residue on the jacket of the shell.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever mark those?
Mr.Hill. I can say that I marked all six of them.
Mr.Belin. I am first going to hand you what has been marked Q-178 on the lead portion. It is 178 or 170. It appears to be Q-178, with the initials JH running together and CK, and then another initial R, with a dash behind it.
Do you see any identification mark of yours on there at all?
Mr.Hill. Yes, sir; on the side of the jacket of the bullet there is the name scratched H-i-l-l, and also the initials BC. I scratched the H-i-l-l on this shell, and Bob Carroll scratched the BC on it in my presence in the personnel office of the police department on the third floor.
Mr.Belin. What is that?
Mr.Hill. This is one of the shells which is a .38 special shell that was removed from the suspect's weapon, removed from the weapon that was taken from the suspect at the time of his arrest.
Mr.Belin. When was it removed?
Mr.Hill. They were not taken out of the gun, as I recall, sir, until we arrived at the station.
Mr.Belin. Who took it out of the gun?
Mr.Hill. I took it out of the gun.
Mr.Belin. Did you keep it in your possession until you put on your initials?
Mr.Hill. All six shells remained in my possession until I initialed them.
Mr.Belin. Was this an empty shell or live bullet?
Mr.Hill. That is a live round.
Mr.Belin. For what caliber?
Mr.Hill. A .38 caliber.
Mr.Belin. I am going to hand you another bullet which has been marked Q-177.
Mr.Hill. That appears to be Q-177.
It's also on the what appears to be the copper tip has the initial JH running together, the initials CK on it also.
It is a Western .38 special bullet. It has not been fired. It is a copper-colored slug. On the case of this shell is also the name H-i-l-l, which was placed there on November 22.
Mr.Belin. Let the record show that I believe that these are Exhibit 145, but I am not sure. I mean Commission Exhibit 145, and therefore, I identified them by the "Q" number which is on the bullet itself.
Was this also something that you took out?
Mr.Hill. This would have been another of the shells, and the gun.
Mr.Belin. I hand you four more bullets which have been marked as, I believe they are Commission Exhibit 518, but again I will withhold that identification.
I see the markings on this—let me see if I can see some "Q" numbers.
I see one Q-79. Do you see that, sergeant?
Mr.Hill. Now that I know where to look, I can find it. It is going to be Q-79.
It has the initials CK. That is distinguishable on it. It has two X's near the identification number that are legible.
And it has other markings that is R something or "R-" that is apparently on some of the others.
Mr.Belin. Do you see your name on that?
Mr.Hill. My name is also on this, on the metal jacket portion of the shell.
Mr.Belin. What kind of bullet is that?
Mr.Hill. This is another Western .38 special with a copper-colored coating on the lead inside the bullet.
Mr.Belin. Handing you Q-78.
Mr.Hill. This is a .38 caliber Western shell with the identification mark Q-78, with the other markings of JH and CK on it, and also on the shell casing near the rear of the bullet is the name H-i-l-l, with which I marked it.
Mr.Belin. Handing you Q-80.
Mr.Hill. Okay. This is an R.-P. .38 shell with the identification number Q-80.
The initials CK and JH near the "Q" number on the jacket of this one. Also is the name H-i-l-l scratched into the metal, which I placed on it. And this one also is a plain lead shell.
Mr.Belin. Handing you Q-81, do you see Q-81, on there?
Mr.Hill. This is an R and P shell with the identification number Q-81, with the initials CK and JH scratched near the "Q" number.
On the side of this shell also is the word H-i-l-l, which was placed on this shell by me.
This is a .38 lead slug.
Mr.Belin. What is the fact as to whether or not all of these slugs were removed from this gun which has been marked as Exhibit 143?
What is the fact as to whether or not all of those six were removed?
Mr.Hill. All six of the slugs that were identified immediately previous to this point were removed from the gun, identified as Commission Exhibit 143, by me.
Mr.Belin. What is the fact as to whether or not from the time this gun was handed to you until the time you removed these six bullets, this gun was in your possession?
Mr.Hill. The gun remained in my possession until it, from the time it was given to me until the gun was marked and all the shells were marked. They remained in my personal possession. After they were marked, they were released by me to Detective T. L. Baker of the homicide bureau. He came to the personnel office and requested that they be given to him, and I marked them and turned them over to him at this point.
Mr.Belin. All right, now, I want to return to the car, Sergeant Hill.
You stated that this gun was handed to youby——
Mr.Hill. Detective Bob Carroll.
Mr.Belin. Detective Bob Carroll when he got in?
Mr.Hill. Yes.
Mr.Belin. All right.
After he handed you—handed the gun to you, will you tell us what happened inside the car, or whether anyone made any remarks? And if you can, what happened in the car?
Mr.Hill. We mostly got the car in motion, traveled to the first corner where we could make a right turn, made a right turn, traveled one block, made another right turn, continued down this street, and at this point we would have been going east until we reached Zangs Boulevard, and turned left onto Zangs.
Within, I would say seconds—this is just a guess—after we got in the car, I picked up the radio and used the call number 550, car 2, which No. 550 is the number assigned to the personnel office, and because I knew the captain was out in the field and he would be using 550, if he got on the radio.
I used call 550, car 2, and made the statement, "We have suspect and weapon and are en route to the station."
Mr.Belin. Now I want to hand you what has been marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which is the transcript of the police log, and I notice that at 1:52 p.m., there was a 550-2-531, with the notation, "Suspect on shooting of police officer is apprehended en route to the station." Wasthat——
Mr.Hill. Well, that would have generally been—that would havebeen——
Mr.Belin. Would have been you?
Mr.Hill. That would have been me.
Mr.Belin. It is marked "Westbrook-Batchelor." Is that because of the No. 2 on it?
Mr.Hill. Yes.
Possibly Batchelor's call is 2, and Westbrook's is 550, so apparently they showed Westbrook was talking to Chief Batchelor, which at thispoint——
Mr.Belin. Someone else put this handwriting in. That is, "Westbrook-Batchelor," but is that the time that you called in?
Mr.Hill. Yes, sir; I don't remember the exact words, but I did get on the radio as soon as we got to the car and it got moving, notifying that we were en route to the station with the suspect. That would have been possibly right.
Mr.Belin. It goes on to say, "From the Texas Theatre."
And, "caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theatre after a fight."
Did you say that?
Mr.Hill. This would have been the dispatcher to me asking the question did we have him in the Texas Theatre. Was that where we arrested him?
Mr.Belin. That is 531-550-2?
Mr.Hill. In other words, it is dispatcher to 550 car 2.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Hill. And he was finding out for sure if we had arrested him at the theatre.
Mr.Belin. Then it goes to 550.
Mr.Hill. Car 2 would have been my answer to the dispatcher.
Mr.Belin. It says, "Caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theatre after a fight." And then 531-2-3.
Mr.Hill. That would have been the dispatcher talkingto——
Mr.Belin. Someone?
Mr.Hill. Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson.
Mr.Belin. Two and three?
Mr.Hill. Then 531 again would have been the dispatcher advising 305, which is a homicide unit that the apprehension had been made.
And then the 550 car 2, to 531 would have been me telling him that we had 223, who was Walker—that is Walker's call number, and 492, which was Carroll, and Lyons' call number in the car with me.
And we later had to make arrangements for somebody to go back and pick up 223 car and take it back.
Mr.Belin. That last call then was made at 1:53 p.m., in which you advised who was in the car?
Mr.Hill. With us en route to the station.
Mr.Belin. And the first one that you made after you got to the car was at 1:52 p.m.?
MrHill. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Now, also turning to Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, I notice that there is another call on car No. 550-2. Was that you at that time, or not, at 1:40 p.m.?
Would that have been someone else?
Mr.Hill. That probably is R. D. Stringer.
Mr.Belin. That is not you, then, even though it has a number 550-2?
Mr.Hill. Yes; because Stringer quite probably would have been using the same call number, because it is more his than it was mine, really, but I didn'thave an assigned call number, so I was using a number I didn't think anybody would be using, which is call 550-2, instead of the Westbrook to Batchelor as it indicates here.
Mr.Belin. Now after, from the time you started in motion until the time you called in, do you remember anyone saying anything at all in the car?
Mr.Hill. The suspect was asked what his name was.
Mr.Belin. What did he say?
Mr.Hill. He never did answer. He just sat there.
Mr.Belin. Was he asked where he lived?
Mr.Hill. That was the second question that was asked the suspect, and he didn't answer it, either.
About the time I got through with the radio transmission, I asked Paul Bentley, "Why don't you see if he has any identification."
Paul was sitting sort of sideways in the seat, and with his right hand he reached down and felt of the suspect's left hip pocket and said, "Yes, he has a billfold," and took it out.
I never did have the billfold in my possession, but the name Lee Oswald was called out by Bentley from the back seat, and said this identification, I believe, was on the library card.
And he also made the statement that there was some more identification in this other name which I don't remember, but it was the same name that later came in the paper that he bought the gun under.
Mr.Belin. Would the name Hidell mean anything? Alek Hidell?
Mr.Hill. That would be similar. I couldn't say specifically that is what it was, because this was a conversation and I never did see it written down, but that sounds like the name that I heard.
Mr.Belin. Was this the first time you learned of the name?
Mr.Hill. Yes; it was.
Mr.Belin. All right; when did you learn of his address?
Mr.Hill. There were two different addresses on the identification.
One of them was in Oak Cliff. The other one was in Irving. But as near as I can recall of the conversation in the car, this was strictly conversation, because I didn't read any of the stuff. It didn't have an address on Beckley, that I recall hearing.
Mr.Belin. Let me ask you this. Now from the time you got in the car to the time you got to the station, I believe you said that at least the second question asked was where do you live, and the man didn't answer?
Mr.Hill. The man didn't answer.
Mr.Belin. Was he ever asked again where he lived, up to the time you got to the station?
Mr.Hill. No; I don't believe so, because when Bentley got the identification out, we had two different addresses. We had two different names, and the comment was made, "I guess we are going to have to wait until we get to the station to find out who he actually is."
After about the time Bentley reached in his pocket and got his billfold, the suspect made the statement, "I don't know why you are treating me like this. The only thing I have done is carry a pistol in a movie."
Then there was a remark made something to the effect, "Yes, sir; you have done a lot more. You have killed a policeman."
And then the suspect made a remark similar to "Well, you fry for that," or something to that effect.
Mr.Belin. Something to what effect?
Mr.Hill. Well, now, he either made the statement, "You only fry for that," or "You can fry for that," or a similar statement. Now the exact words of it, I don't recall.
Mr.Belin. All right; then what was said?
Mr.Hill. Some more questions were asked as to where he had been prior to going to the movie, which he did not answer. Some more questions were asked as to what was his true name, and in neither case did he ever answer them. He did make a comment, if I recall, about the handcuffs, about, "I don't see why you handcuffed me." And here again he repeated the statement, "The only crime I have committed was carrying a pistol in a movie."
We got the suspect to the city hall as rapidly as possible without using the siren and red light, but we took advantage of every open spot we had to make a little speed, and we explained to him this—I did, before we got into the basement, that there would probably be some reporters and photographers and cameramen waiting in the basement when we got to the station, and that if he so desired, we would hold him in a way that he could hide his face if he wanted to, and also told him he did not have to speak to the press if he didn't want to.
He didn't comment on this at this point, but as we pulled into the basement from the Main Street side, we were wanting to get out and get organized enough that we would set up our wedge again to get him in the station through the basement, and so we pulled over to what would have been the southeast side of the basement, got out of the car, and formed a wedge in the same position that we left the theatre, and told the suspect again he could hide his face if he wanted to.
And he said, "Why should I hide my face. I haven't done anything to be ashamed of."
And with that we started walking him up the aisle of the basement and walked him through the door into the basement of the city hall proper, put him on the elevator, stayed on the elevator with him, put him back behind the wall, and sort of formed a wall around him.
Some of the press pushed into the elevator with us.
Got him out on the third floor, walked him into the homicide and robbery office, placed him in the first interrogation room inside the homicide and robbery office, and left Officer Walker there with him.
At this point I stood in the door of the, or at the door of the room he was in.
Reporters wanted to see the pistol. I held it up to them but never relinquished control of it. I asked Baker at this time, who was Detective T. L. Baker, if he wanted the pistol, and he said, "No; hold on to it until later."
I explained to him that this was the suspect on Tippit and did he want us to make up the arrest sheet, or would they make them up.
We were trying to get together to decide who was going to make the offense report and get all the little technicalities out of the way when a detective named Richard Stovall and another one, G. F. Rose, came up, and the four of us were standing when Captain Fritz walked in.
He walked up to Rose and Stovall and made the statement to them, "Go get a search warrant and go out to some address on Fifth Street," and I don't recall the actual street number, in Irving, and "pick up a man named Lee Oswald."
And I asked the captain why he wanted him, and he said, "Well, he was employed down at the Book Depository and he had not been present for a roll call of the employees."
And we said, "Captain, we will save you a trip," or words to that effect, "Because there he sits."
And with that, we relinquished our prisoner to the homicide and robbery bureau, to Captain Fritz.
Walker, Bentley, Lyons, Carroll, and I knew that the prisoner had received a laceration and bruises while effecting his arrest, and that an officer had been scratched while effecting the arrest, and that Bentley had sprained an ankle, and Lyons had sprained an ankle while effecting the arrest—they were fixing to have to make a whole bushel basket of reports—we adjourned to the personnel office, which was further down the hall from homicide and I sat down and started to try to organize the first report on the arrest.
I originally had the heading on it, "Injuries sustained by suspect while effecting his arrest in connection with the murder of Officer J. D. Tippit," and a few minutes later Captain Westbrook came in the office and said that our suspect had admitted being a Communist. This is strictly hearsay. I did not hear it myself.
He himself also said a few minutes later he had previously been in the Marine Corps, had a dishonorable discharge, had been to Russia, and had had some trouble with the police in New Orleans for passing out pro-Castro literature.
This still is all hearsay because I didn't actually hear it firsthand myself.And at about this point Captain Westbrook suggested that I change the heading of my report to include arrest of the suspect in the assassination of the President and in the murder of Officer J. D. Tippit, which I did.
I originally wrote the report for Bob Carroll's signature and for my signature, and left it with the captain to be typed while we moved over in another office to get a cup of coffee and sort of calm down and recap the events.
By then McDonald was there, and we had added some information that he could give us such as the information about "This is it." Which the suspect allegedly said as he came into contact with him.
The exact location of the officers and who was there on the original arrest and everything, and we were waiting around for the secretary to finish the report.
When we got it back ready to sign, Carroll and I were sitting there, and it had Captain Westbrook's name for signature, and added a paragraph about he and the FBI agent being there, and not seeing that it made any difference, I went ahead and signed the report.
Actually, they were there, but I didn't make any corrections.
And as far as the report, didn't allege what they did, but had added a paragraph to our report to include the fact that he was there, and also that the FBI agent was there.
Now as to why this was done, your guess is as good as mine.
Mr.Belin. Were they there at the time?
Mr.Hill. They were there. They got there inside where we were about the time he was being handcuffed.
Mr.Belin. All right, let me go back a minute now.
You left the suspect in the custody of homicide?
Mr.Hill. Right.
Mr.Belin. In what office was he left?
Mr.Hill. He was still in the interrogation room and still in the homicide and robbery bureau office.
Mr.Belin. Who was in there with him when you left?
Mr.Hill. When I left the office, Captain Fritz, who was the commander of the bureau was there, and I had assumed, being that he was the officer in charge, the highest ranking man there, and it was his bureau and his office, theoretically he was in possession of the prisoner.
However, now as to specifically who went in and took him out of the interrogation room and took him to the captain's office, I don't know.
Mr.Belin. Was Captain Fritz in the interrogation office?
Mr.Hill. Captain Fritz was in the hall. There was a little small hallway to the door here, and there is a hallway just big enough to pass through. The suspect was in the interrogation room and Captain Fritz immediately in front of him.
Mr.Belin. Was anyone else in the interrogation room when you left?
Mr.Hill. No; Walker was, and when we turned him over to homicide, Walker came out and Fritz and his people had control of the prisoner.
Mr.Belin. So when you and Walker left, the nearest office to him was Fritz'?
Mr.Hill. As far as I know; yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. At any time up to the time you left, did you ever get any address on the suspect as to where he lived other than the statement of Captain Fritz that he had this address on Fifth Street somewhere in Irving?
Mr.Hill. Paul Bentley called off two addresses. One, as I recall, in Irving, and another one in Oak Cliff, when he was reading from information inside the suspect's billfold. But neither of these addresses was an address on 10th or on Beckley.
As to exactly what they were, I don't recall, as I didn't see the identification.
Mr.Belin. Would one of them have been an address on Neely Street?
Mr.Hill. It very possibly could be. In fact I believe it was.
Mr.Belin. To the best of your knowledge, did anyone in the car in which you were riding down to the police station ever mention any Beckley Street address for the suspect?
Mr.Hill. No.
Mr.Belin. To the best of your knowledge, when the suspect was brought into the police station, up to the time you left him with Captain Fritz there, had anyone mentioned a Beckley Street address?
Mr.Hill. No.
Mr.Belin. What else did the suspect say, if anything?
Mr.Hill. Other than the statement he made about brutality in the theatre, and other than the statements he made in the car about "Why are you treating me this way? The only thing I have done is carry a gun," and "Why are you handcuffing me, the only thing I have done is carry a gun," and when the comment was made about something of killing an officer, and he said something to the extent that you can only fry for that, and the man showed absolutely no emotion.
He gave the appearance of being arrogant, and yet he didn't make boastful statements. He was silent almost the entire time he was in the car except for the flareup of the brutality in the theatre, and the two statements or the three statements that he made in the car. He was silent almost the entire time until we got to the basement when he made the statement that he didn't know why he should hide his face, he didn't have anything to be ashamed of.
Mr.Belin. When the comment was made about frying, did any police officer in the car say in substance, "Maybe you will find out," or something like that?
Do you remember anything like that being said?
Mr.Hill. There was probably a sarcastic remark to that made, but as to the exact words of it, "You will find out," or "You will get a chance to find out," but I am sure there was an answer to his question, and I don't recall who said it.
But as near as I can remember, it came from the back seat.
Mr.Belin. Was there any reply by the suspect along the lines of "Well, I understand it only takes a minute," or something like that?
Did you hear him say anything like that?
Mr.Hill. I don't recall that statement. It could have been made, because there were about half a dozen conversations actually going on in the car.
At one point after I opened the pistol, and I did open it in the car, and found that one of the slugs or one of the shells did have an indention to the primer that could have been caused by the hammer, we made a comment that he tried or he did pull the trigger, and this was in line with what Hutson had asked me, in the theatre, had I heard the gun click.
Mr.Belin. Anything else that happened in the car?
Mr.Hill. Not that I can recall of specific detail.
There was quite a bit of excitement.
Everybody had been in the little scuffle and were huffing and puffing, and especially me, as fat as I am, but there weren't any, I don't recall any more direct statements. There was nothing ever said in the car that I can recall that would have put it at this time. We didn't have enough to be sure that maybe the two were tied together.
Mr.Belin. Anything else about the demeanor of the witness at all?
Mr.Hill. Other than as I said, he gave the appearance of arrogance, but yet he did not talk boastfully. In fact, he talked very little. This was one of the things that stuck out most about him in my mind, was how quiet he did keep.
His commenting or relating the statement that the only crime he had committed was carrying a gun in the theatre, and the refusal to answer questions as to what his name was and where he lived, this is not unusual immediately after an arrest, because when a man is arrested, he is keyed up too, and probably thinks that the best thing that they can do is keep their mouth shut, and he had previously in the theatre said he wanted his attorney.
Mr.Belin. He had said this in the theatre?
Mr.Hill. Yes; when we arrested him, he wanted his lawyer. He knew his rights.
Mr.Belin. Did he ever say he requested an attorney on the way down to the police station?
Mr.Hill. I do not recall.
I was going to say that by making the statement earlier, it is possible, it is apossibility that he decided the best thing to do was keep his mouth shut; that is a supposition on my part, and I couldn't prove it as to the reason he didn't say any more on the way to the police station.
Mr.Belin. Where did the police get ahold of his address on Beckley?
Mr.Hill. I don't know. This apparently came from homicide later, and once we turned him over to homicide, with the exception of seeing him walking down the hall again in front of several TV people later in the day, I had nothing else to do with the man. I never saw him again.
Mr.Belin. Sergeant Hill, from the time he was handcuffed until the time you turned him over to Captain Fritz, except for the moments that he was in the room with Officer Walker in the interrogation room, were you with the suspect at all times?