Mr.Hill. Yes; and I was also with him when I was standing in the doorway of the room when he was there, with Walker. The door was never closed.
Mr.Belin. The door was never closed?
Mr.Hill. No.
Mr.Belin. While you were standing in the doorway with Walker, did the man, suspect, say anything at all, or not?
Mr.Hill. Not that I recall, sir. At this time when I was in the doorway, I was talking to Baker and had my attention more on him and what he was saying, because at that point we were trying to decide if he wanted the gun, if we were going to make the offense, or homicide, or the officers that stayed out at the scene to wait for the crime lab. We were talking trying to get the paperwork straight.
Mr.Belin. How far was the suspect from you at this time?
Mr.Hill. Sitting across the table, about as wide as this, and maybe 2 more feet to the door.
Mr.Belin. About how far would that be?
Mr.Hill. About 6 feet.
Mr.Belin. How close was the other officer to you?
Mr.Hill. The other officer was at the end of the table here. He was probably 4 feet from me and 4 feet from the suspect.
Mr.Belin. Did you hear the other officer say anything to the suspect?
Mr.Hill. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Belin. Did you hear the suspect say anything at all?
Mr.Hill. I didn't hear the suspect say anything at all. Other than the statement he made in the basement, I didn't hear him utter another word.
Mr.Belin. If the suspect had told anyone his address from the time he was apprehended until the time he was turned over to Captain Fritz, would you have been in a position to hear that statement made?
Mr.Hill. With my attention diverted talking to Baker, it is possible that he could have given his address to Walker without me hearing it, but I can't say for sure.
Mr.Belin. Apart from what he may have said to Walker, if there was anything else that he could have said except for during that period, would you have heard it if he said anything about living on North Beckley?
Mr.Hill. I am sure until the time that the suspect was turned over to Fritz, other than maybe a couple of words exchanged between Walker and the suspect while I was standing in the door talking to Baker, I am sure I would have heard it, and I never did hear the address North Beckley mentioned until much later in the day, and this was strictly hearsay, sir.
Mr.Belin. Well, did you hear any Beckley Street address mentioned?
Mr.Hill. I didn't hear anything on Beckley mentioned until probably 7 or 8 o'clock that night.
Mr.Belin. Did you talk to Walker after he left the interrogation room?
Mr.Hill. Talked to Walker after he left the interrogation room. He came into the personnel office with us, and we sat down and made sure that—we just talked over our story and made sure that we had all the details as to who was where in the arrest, what door the man came in into the theatre, where they were when the original contact was made, how Bentley hurt his foot, how Lyons hurt his foot, and all this, and decided, well, rather than have to get everybody back together and round them up and all six or seven people sign the onereport, it was decided that Carroll and I would be the only two that signed it, and that Bentley would go on to the hospital and get his foot fixed, and Lyons would go to the hospital and get his foot fixed, and after McDonald finally got down there to the station and we sent him over to the city hall to get the scratch on his face treated, and then the rest of the time, with the exception of going across the hall for a cup of coffee, probably I didn't get out of the office to almost 5 o'clock.
Mr.Belin. Did Walker ever mention to you any conversation he had with Oswald in the interrogation room?
Mr.Hill. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Did you and he discuss all the conversations that were had with the prisoner?
Mr.Hill. With the exception of getting some information from McDonald as to what Oswald actually said at the time of his contact with him in the theatre, the statement to the effect, "This is it," I figured that I had been in on the conversation when he was discussing the brutality and the statements he made in the car, and the statement he made in the basement when we were telling him he could duck his head if he wanted to, enough that I had all the information that I needed for the report, so I never did discuss any of the conversation that could possibly have taken place between Walker and the suspect in the interrogation room.
Mr.Belin. Over what period of time span would that have been that he was in the interrogation room and you were standing in the doorway there?
Mr.Hill. Probably 3 or 4 minutes.
Mr.Belin. Now, when you were going down to the station in the car, I believe the question was asked of the suspect to give his name and his address and he refused, is that correct?
Mr.Hill. He didn't answer either question. He didn't say, "I am not going to tell you anything." He just didn't answer, that is all.
Mr.Belin. But at least Officer Walker never told you that he finally answered that question, did he?
Mr.Hill. No.
Mr.Belin. Well, you had one report that you entitled "The arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald," which pertained to the Texas Theatre. Did you have any other report that you made at all, or not?
Mr.Hill. I had to make one later about a telephone call that I made from San Antonio to Dallas when we got the flash down there on Sunday morning that Oswald had been shot. I was attending a meeting down there.
Mr.Belin. Well, apart from that, anything?
Mr.Hill. Also, I made a statement to the FBI concerning the fact that I had known Jack Ruby prior to this thing. But as far an another report, other than the original report that afternoon on the arrest of the suspect, I don't recall writing any other report after that one report that was signed by Carroll and I and Captain Westbrook is the only one I wrote on the actual arrest.
Mr.Belin. I see one 2-page report that is signed by you.
Mr.Hill. Can I look at it?
Mr.Belin. You bet you can.
[Handing to witness.]
Mr.Hill. This was later when they wanted a report from each individual officer. Yes, sir; I did write this.
Mr.Belin. You are referring to a report dated what?
Mr.Hill. This would have been dated November 22, sir, and it is signed by Captain Westbrook and Bob Carroll and myself. I do not have it with me, but in case it is not in there, I have a carbon copy of it with all three signatures on it.
Mr.Belin. Did you have anything to do with either the assassination investigation or the Tippit investigation on Saturday, November 23?
Mr.Hill. No, sir; I was off that day.
And then on Sunday the 24th, I had flown out of Dallas that morning on a Braniff flight to San Antonio with a sergeant from Dallas and captain from Garland and captain from Denison to attend a state board meeting of the Texas Municipal Police Association in San Antonio at the International Building, andwe took a coffee break somewhere around 11:30 or 12, I don't know the exact time.
Mr.Belin. When was the last time you saw Jack Ruby prior to the shooting of Oswald?
Mr.Hill. It was probably 6 to 8 weeks, and that was a contact that I was walking by a garage one night about the time he came down to get his car, and we talked for a minute and that is all.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember what you said or what he said at all, or not?
Mr.Hill. It just was a greeting. We hadn't seen each other in quite a while. In the interim, I had been on—normally when I was on a rotating schedule of working evenings and deep nights, the Carousel Club was located in the district that I worked quite often, and I would stop in there once in a while, and I had been on a special assignment for about 2 months working straight days, in town and out of town, and I hadn't been by or hadn't seen him, and this particular night we ran into each other, and he wanted to know what I was doing, and I told him I was working in personnel.
And he said, I haven't been much around much lately, and I said, "I am staying home."
Mr.Belin. When was the last time you saw him prior to that meeting?
Mr.Hill. Probably the last time, I was in his place on duty, maybe 3 or 4 weeks before this.
Mr.Belin. I wonder if you would describe the situation in the police department on the third floor with regard to reporters or what have you during the period of time that you brought Oswald in and during the rest of the time you might have been there on the afternoon of November 22?
What did you find when you got there?
Mr.Hill. There wasn't anybody except the ones that were down in the basement waiting for us to bring him in, and they were standing in the doorway, that if you turned to the right, you go in the jail office.
If you go straight, you go into the basement of the building.
Some of them rode up on the elevator with us. When we started off the elevator, they got ahead of us and shot us walking down the hall and took pictures of us going to homicide.
We carried him into the interrogation room and they followed us into the homicide office.
At this time probably there were six or seven people, Jim Underwood from KRLD was one of them, and I don't recall any more specifically by name.
But as time went by in the afternoon, more and more people came in until I would say about 6:45 or 7 o'clock that night, the night of the 22d, when I left, there were some 70- or 80-odd reporters and floodlights and two or three live cameras and several more cameras on tripods, and out-of-town reporters, and local reporters, and everything else, that officers were on duty and in uniform to keep the halls open as much as possible.
And if you wanted to go from the elevator entrance on back toward homicide or to any of the other detective offices, you had to drag your way through TV cables and bodies of people, seesawing your course to get through there.
Mr.Belin. Now you have stated when we first started this deposition that you had some background in either newspaper or radio or television?
Mr.Hill. Yes, sir.
I worked at the Herald both as a police reporter, as a newswriter, and a radio-TV editor, and left there and went with WBAP as a member of their Dallas Bureau, covering the, working out of an office in the police station here in Dallas, and covering police news and all other types of news also.
Mr.Belin. Was there any request ever made to the press people to clear the hall or clear the floor at all?
Mr.Hill. Not to my personal knowledge; no, sir. It could have been made when I wasn't there, or it could have been made before I got there, or after I left or while I was in an office or something, but I don't know that a direct order was ever given to get everybody out.
Mr.Belin. Could you tell us what general discussion there was among the officers, the line officers, without quoting any names that might embarrass anyone, about all of these people and paraphernalia there?
Mr.Hill. As to the situation, we commented that it was a bad thing that we didn't have a space big enough to put everybody and make press releases to them like they did in some of the eastern cities.
I think somebody brought up the fact that in New York you wouldn't do what was done here because everybody had to go to one place and when they got ready to tell you something, they would come in and make a formal announcement, and if they wanted to throw it open for questions they did, and if they didn't they would walk out.
There was commenting on the smallness of the space that we had to work in and the inconvenience there, and the building, had it been Brooklyn, it wouldn't have created as much congestion and all.
But there was a feeling of congeniality between the police and the press, and I observed some of the officers that did have to go ask somebody to move or get out of the way, or not block a door, or so, or not block this, and the press was very nice about cooperating and doing at that time what they were asked to do.
What happened Saturday and Sunday, I don't know. But it was rather crowded, I will make that statement.
Mr.Belin. Sergeant Hill, I have handed you these six bullets that you previously identified with your signature on it here, and asked you to examine and try to find which one, if any, had a scratch that you talked about, and you picked out what might properly be the one.
What is the fact as to whether or not this depression was a deep one or was one that you found difficult to see?
Mr.Hill. It was one that I found difficult to see at the time.
However, the bullets had not been handled as much at that time, and they were less shiny, and evidence would have been a little better on a dull shell where a new marking had been made on it rather than one that had been handled a few times.
Mr.Belin. The two that you picked out are marked, I believe, "Q-80" and the other one is "Q-177," is that it?
Mr.Hill. That's right.
Mr.Belin. I think you said as between the two of them, yousaw——
Mr.Hill. Q-80 would be the one.
Mr.Belin. Now, Sergeant Hill, we met one time earlier here, I think, a couple of days ago, is that correct?
Mr.Hill. I believe it was Friday afternoon, sir.
Mr.Belin. Friday afternoon?
Mr.Hill. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Originally we had your deposition set for Friday afternoon, is that correct?
Mr.Hill. That's right.
Mr.Belin. You came and I had an airplane flight, an 8 o'clock flight, that was canceled?
Mr.Hill. That left.
Mr.Belin. I left at 5:30—and now it is past 7 o'clock—and I told you I didn't think we had a chance to get your deposition.
At that time I believe I asked you just to state what general areas of work you had worked in so we could try and see whether or not we had time to take your deposition in half an hour, and I believe you described your work at the Texas School Book Depository in general terms, and in general terms your being at the Texas Theatre, but did we go into any details at that time?
Mr.Hill. The only specifics we discussed were this.
You were asking Officer Hicks if either one recalled seeing a sack, supposedly one that had been made by the suspect, in which he could have possibly carried the weapon into the Depository, and I at that time told you about the small sack that appeared to be a lunchsack, and that that was the only sack that I saw, and that I left the Book Depository prior to the finding of the gun.
Or the section, if it was found up there on the sixth floor, if it was there, I didn't see it.
Then you asked me some statement, if I had heard it in the car, but I don't recall what statement it was.
But I told you at that time there was remarks made, but I didn't recall hearing that. I don't remember what it was.
Perhaps your memory on that is better than mine.
Mr.Belin. Was there anything else in specific that we discussed at that time?
Mr.Hill. Not that I recall.
Mr.Belin. Otherwise, that is our only conversation that we had?
Mr.Hill. Yes, sir; it was just very general and very limited due to the stress of time.
Mr.Belin. By the way, did you search the suspect that you brought in from the Texas Theatre?
Mr.Hill. As to any other possible weapon?
Mr.Belin. Yes; or ammunition?
Mr.Hill. I did not search him, and being that he was handcuffed, and being that they were moving him out hurriedly, I don't recall anyone else searching him after he was placed under arrest.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything else you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant to this area of inquiry pertaining to the investigation of the assassination, or the investigation of the Tippit murder?
Anything else you can think of that you would like to comment on at this time?
Mr.Hill. Not that I can recall, sir.
Mr.Belin. Sergeant Hill, we want to thank you very much for your splendid cooperation, and for the cooperation of the entire police department here, and you particularly.
You had to make two trips, because of the fact that the one airplane of mine was canceled.
Mr.Hill. They were both on duty, so I don't mind.
Mr.Belin. You have an opportunity, if you like, to read the typewritten transcript of this deposition and sign it, or else you can waive the signing and have it go directly to Washington without your reading.
Do you have any preference?
Mr.Hill. Sir, if it would be all right, I would like to run by and sign it?
If you will just let me know when, I will be here.
Mr.Belin. They will contact you and again we want to thank you very much.
Mr.Hill. It is my pleasure. Anytime I can help, let me know.
The testimony of J. M. Poe was taken at 10:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Would you stand and be sworn, please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Poe. Yes.
Mr.Ball. State your name.
Mr.Poe. J. M. Poe [spelling]. P-o-e.
Mr.Ball. And your address?
Mr.Poe. 1716 Cascade Street.
Mr.Ball. And your occupation?
Mr.Poe. Police officer, city of Dallas.
Mr.Ball. All right, what is your rank in the department?
Mr.Poe. Patrolman.
Mr.Ball. How long have you been in the department?
Mr.Poe. Nine years and one month.
Mr.Ball. And where were you born?
Mr.Poe. Winnsboro, Tex.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go to school?
Mr.Poe. Winnsboro, Stephensville, and Edgewood.
Mr.Ball. How far through school did you go?
Mr.Poe. Graduated from high school.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you do?
Mr.Poe. Then went into the Navy.
Mr.Ball. How long did you stay there?
Mr.Poe. Three years.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you do?
Mr.Poe. I was what we called a "snipe," diesel mechanic.
Mr.Ball. How long did you do that work?
Mr.Poe. About 2 years.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you do?
Mr.Poe. I was in construction work. I was the carpenter when I got out of the Service.
Mr.Ball. You worked as a "snipe," in the Service, is that right?
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Then you got out of the Service and worked as a construction worker?
Mr.Poe. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And then what did you do?
Mr.Poe. I joined the police force.
Mr.Ball. What kind of work do you do on the police force?
Mr.Poe. Patrol work.
Mr.Ball. Patrolman?
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. In a car?
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. In a radio car?
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Were you on duty on the 22d of November 1963?
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr.Ball. What time of day?
Mr.Poe. From 7 in the morning until 3 in the afternoon.
Mr.Ball. Were you alone?
Mr.Poe. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Who was with you?
Mr.Poe. L. E. Jez.
Mr.Ball. [Spelling.] J-a-s-s.
Mr.Poe. No; it is J-e-z.
Mr.Ball. What district do you patrol?
Mr.Poe. I had two districts to patrol. District 105 and district 106.
Mr.Ball. Where are they located?
Mr.Poe. In the western end of the downtown section.
Mr.Ball. You were a downtown patrolman?
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear of the assassination of the President over the radio? The fact that the President had been shot?
Mr.Poe. We heard the call come out on the radio. There was a signal 19, which would be a shooting of the President, at Elm and Houston Streets.
Mr.Ball. What did you do?
Were you told to go some place?
Mr.Poe. We reported the scene; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. To where?
Mr.Poe. To Elm and Houston.
Mr.Ball. When—what did you do there?
Mr.Poe. We helped cover off the building and control the crowd.
Mr.Ball. Then you went where?
Mr.Poe. From there to Oak Cliff, to the scene of the Tippit shooting.
Mr.Ball. How did you happen to go out there?
Mr.Poe. I was standing close to the squad car using the squad car as part of the block to keep the crowd back and had run out of rope, and heard a citizen, I presume, get on the radio, and—because he didn't know radio procedure, called and said a police officer was shot out there. At first give the wrong address, and come back and changed it to another address, and I believe he left us in the 400 block of East Ninth, the last time, and we went out there.
Mr.Ball. You went there?
Mr.Poe. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And what did you find when you got there?
Mr.Poe. Wefound——
Mr.Ball. What did you see?
Mr.Poe. Found the squad car parked toward the curb, and a pool of blood at the left-front wheel of the car. The ambulance had already picked him up and the officer had left the scene when we arrived. We had—I don't know how many people there were. Looked like 150 to 200 people around there, and Mrs. Markham, I talked to her first and we got a description of the man that shot Tippit.
Mr.Ball. Do you know what the description was?
Mr.Poe. Sir?
Mr.Ball. Do you know what the description was?
Mr.Poe. White male, about 25, about 5 feet 8, brown hair, medium, and I believe she said had on a white jacket at the time.
Mr.Ball. What did you do then?
Mr.Poe. We gave the description to several of the officers at the scene. You couldn't get on the radio at the time, there was so much traffic on the radio, and the last—the direction he was seen leaving, and then I talked to several more witnesses around there.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever put that description on the radio?
Mr.Poe. I believe we did. But I couldn't swear to it.
Mr.Ball. And what happened after that?
Mr.Poe. I talked to a Spanish man, but I don't remember his name. Dominique, I believe.
Mr.Ball. Domingo Benavides?
Mr.Poe. I believe that is correct; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did he tell you?
Mr.Poe. He told me, give me the same, or similar description of the man, and told me he was running out across this lawn. He was unloading his pistol as he ran, and he picked the shells up.
Mr.Ball. Domingo told you who was running across the lawn?
Mr.Poe. A man, white man.
Mr.Ball. What was he doing?
Mr.Poe. He was unloading his pistol as he run.
Mr.Ball. And what did he say?
Mr.Poe. He said he picked the two hulls up.
Mr.Ball. Did he hand you the hulls?
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you put any markings on the hulls?
Mr.Poe. I couldn't swear to it; no, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you do with the hulls?
Mr.Poe. I turned the hulls into the crime lab, which was at the scene.
Mr.Ball. Do you know the name of the man with the crime lab or from the crime lab?
Mr.Poe. I couldn't swear to it. I believe Pete Barnes, but I wouldn't swear to it.
Mr.Ball. Did you talk to any people there?
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Who?
Mr.Poe. Talked to Mrs. Markham.
Mr.Ball. Did you talk to the two Davis girls?
Mr.Poe. I talked to one of them, but I can't recall talking to two Davis girls.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember what a Detective Dhority there at the scene did?
Mr.Poe. I remember Detective Leavelle at the scene.
Mr.Ball. Leavelle?
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did the Davis girls give you anything? Either one of the Davis girls hand you anything?
Mr.Poe. She give me the same general description of the suspect as Mrs. Markham.
Mr.Ball. What was that?
Mr.Poe. White male, and in his early 20's, around 5'7" or 8", about 145 pounds, and I believe she said had on a white jacket.
Mr.Ball. There is a—off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Ball. We have here a broadcast by Walker. Do you know Walker?
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Was Walker there at the scene?
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir; he came by the scene after I got there.
Mr.Ball. What is his full name?
Mr.Poe. I don't know. I want to say C. T., but I am not positive on that.
Mr.Ball. At 1:22 p.m., on the transcript of the radio log, I note it says, "Have a description of suspect on Jefferson. Last seen about the 300 block of East Jefferson. White male, 30's; 5'8", black hair, slender built, wearing white shirt, black slacks."
Do you know whether you gave Walker that description?
Mr.Poe. I remember giving Walker a description. My partner got in the car with Walker.
Mr.Ball. Did you give Walker a description similar to that?
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Well, the only difference I see between the description you said you gave the other officer and this was that you said he was in his 20's or 25, and this says about 30. Otherwise it is about the same.
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Who told you he had on a white jacket?
Mr.Poe. Mrs. Markham told me first.
Mr.Ball. She did?
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir; Mrs. Markham was awfully excited, and she was—looked like about to faint, and I tried to calm her down as much as I could at first and get as much as I could out of her.
Mr.Ball. How many cartridges, or empty cartridges or shells were given to you?
Mr.Poe. There were two in an empty Winston cigarette package.
Mr.Ball. Did you save the Winston cigarette package?
Mr.Poe. I turned it in with the two cartridges.
Mr.Ball. To the crime lab?
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, I have here a package which has been marked "Q"—FBI lab. Q-74 to Q-77. Would you look those over and see if there is any identification on there by you to indicate that those were the hulls given to you by Benavides?
Mr.Poe. I want to say these two are mine, but I couldn't swear to it.
Mr.Ball. Did you make a mark?
Mr.Poe. I can't swear to it; no, sir.
Mr.Ball. But there is a mark on two of these?
Mr.Poe. There is a mark. I believe I put on them, but I couldn't swear to it, I couldn't make them out any more.
Mr.Ball. Now, the ones you said you made a mark on are—you think it is these two? Q-77 and Q-75?
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir; those two there.
Mr.Ball. Both marked Western Special? They both are marked Western Special. How long did you stay there?
Mr.Poe. At the scene?
Mr.Ball. Uh-huh.
Mr.Poe. I stayed there until Leavelle and his partner from the crime lab got there.
Mr.Ball. Then you left?
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir; I got out and helped try to find the suspect.
Mr.Ball. Were you at the Texas Theatre?
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you see him apprehended?
Mr.Poe. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. You were out?
Mr.Poe. At the back.
Mr.Ball. At the back?
Mr.Poe. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. I think that is all, Mr. Poe.
This will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, and you can sign it if you wish, or waive your signature.
Which do you prefer?
Mr.Poe. Well, sir; I don't have anything to hide. I will tell the truth.
Mr.Ball. Do you want to give your signature?
Mr.Poe. I will sign it.
Mr.Ball. Okay. We'll do that. We can notify you and you can come up here and sign it.
Mr.Poe. All right.
The testimony of John Gibson was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Will you please rise and hold up your hand and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Gibson. I do.
Mr.Ball. Will you state your name, please?
Mr.Gibson. John Gibson.
Mr.Ball. What is your occupation?
Mr.Gibson. I am manager of a retail store.
Mr.Ball. What kind of retail store is that?
Mr.Gibson. It's Elko Camera store.
Mr.Ball. What is the address of the Elko Camera Store?
Mr.Gibson. 239 West Jefferson.
Mr.Ball. Near the Texas Theatre?
Mr.Gibson. I'm four doors from the Texas Theatre.
Mr.Ball. Where were you born, Mr. Gibson?
Mr.Gibson. I was born in Brashear, Tex.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go to school?
Mr.Gibson. Woodrow Wilson High School.
Mr.Ball. Here in Dallas?
Mr.Gibson. In Dallas.
Mr.Ball. Well, what have you done since you got out of school?
Mr.Gibson. Well, after I got out of school I went in service in the Navy and stayed in there 2 years and came back and went to work for Snap-Shots, Inc., and then went to work for Hermetic Seal in Garland, and then went to work for Elko.
Mr.Ball. On November 22, 1963, did you go to a picture show that day?
Mr.Gibson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. About what time of day?
Mr.Gibson. It was at 1 o'clock.
Mr.Ball. Do you go to the picture show very often—that particular theatre—the Texas Theatre?
Mr.Gibson. Like I said—that's on Friday and that is depending on business.
Mr.Ball. About what time of day do you usually go on Friday?
Mr.Gibson. About 1 o'clock—the same time I always go to lunch.
Mr.Ball. Where did you sit on this Friday, November 22, 1963?
Mr.Gibson. I sat in the first chair from the rear on the far right-hand side.
Mr.Ball. Is that where you always sit?
Mr.Gibson. That's where I always sit—that's my chair.
Mr.Ball. I have a picture here of the theatre, which I will have marked as Exhibit A, and will you look at that picture? Does that look like the interior of the Texas Theatre to you?
Mr.Gibson. Yes, sir; it's got more light on it than I've seen most of the time—that looks like it.
(Instrument marked by the reporter as Gibson Exhibit No. A, for identification.)
Mr.Ball. Is the seat in which you usually sit shown in that picture?
Mr.Gibson. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where is that seat with reference to the picture?
Mr.Gibson. Further to the left—from the main seating in the very back—it would be just past him.
Mr.Ball. There's a man sitting in the back in the first seat in the center aisle?
Mr.Gibson. Right, and I would be—to his right.
Mr.Ball. In the same row?
Mr.Gibson. In the same row.
Mr.Ball. To his right facing the screen?
Mr.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And on the other aisle, is that correct?
Mr.Gibson. Right.
Mr.Ball. Did you see the lights come on in that theatre?
Mr.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Had you paid any attention to other people who had come in the theatre before the lights came on?
Mr.Gibson. No.
Mr.Ball. Tell me what happened after the lights came on?
Mr.Gibson. Well, when the lights came on, of course, as I said before, I know most of the people that work there in the show and I got up and started to the front to ask where the head usher or the girl was that works these lights—if something was wrong—I thought maybe they had a fire.
Mr.Ball. You say you started to the front, you mean you started into the lobby?
Mr.Gibson. I started to the lobby, and just before I got to the door there were two or three—anyway the first police officer that got to me was carrying a shotgun, I remember that, and he says, "Is there anybody in the balcony?"
I said, "I don't know." He went on up into the balcony and I stood around out in the lobby for—I don't know—a minute or something, I guess, and they kept coming in and I stepped back inside the theatre just standing just behind where I had been sitting and I would say there were at least six or possibly more policemen downstairs. The rest of them were going upstairs.
Mr.Ball. What did you see happen?
Mr.Gibson. Well, I was standing there watching all this going on and then the policeman started down the aisle—I would say there was another—I don't know, maybe six or eight—started down the aisles.
Mr.Ball. When you say "down the aisles," you mean all of the aisles?
Mr.Gibson. Toward the screen—I don't know if they were going down all of them or not. I don't believe there was any—there was one policeman standing, it seems to me like, right on the other side of me, in the far aisle—just behind me—I don't think there was anybody going down the far aisle next to the wall on my side.
Mr.Ball. What aisles did you see policemen going down?
Mr.Gibson. I saw them going down what I would call the two big centeraisles, and then the next thing was—Oswald was standing in the aisle with a gun in his hand.
Mr.Ball. That's the next thing you saw?
Mr.Gibson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Was there anybody with him—near him?
Mr.Gibson. I couldn't swear to that—I don't know—you mean other policemen?
Mr.Ball. That's what I mean—was he in the aisles?
Mr.Gibson. Well, he was in the aisle when I saw him.
Mr.Ball. What was he doing?
Mr.Gibson. Well, he had this pistol in his hand.
Mr.Ball. Was anybody near him?
Mr.Gibson. Just the officers.
Mr.Ball. What was the officer doing—did you say officers or police officer?
Mr.Gibson. Officers.
Mr.Ball. Plural, officers?
Mr.Gibson. Yes; there were more than one.
Mr.Ball. What were they doing?
Mr.Gibson. Well, they were going toward him.
Mr.Ball. Did they have ahold of him at the time?
Mr.Gibson. No; I don't believe so.
Mr.Ball. Did anyone have ahold of him at that time?
Mr.Gibson. I don't think so.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any officer grab hold of Oswald?
Mr.Gibson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Which one—can you describe where he was and what he did—just tell us in your own words what you saw him do?
Mr.Gibson. Well, just like—I guess you have heard this a lot of times—the gun misfired—it clicked and about the same time there was one police officer that positively had him.
Mr.Ball. What do you mean—"had him"?
Mr.Gibson. Well, I mean he grabbed ahold of him.
Mr.Ball. Did he grab ahold of him before you heard the click or afterwards?
Mr.Gibson. Gee, that's a question that's kind of hard to answer because I would say possibly seconds before or a second—maybe at the precise time the gun clicked. It happened pretty fast and like I say, I just went in to eat a hot-dog for lunch and I wasn't expecting any of this.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any officer strike Oswald?
Mr.Gibson. No, sir; not directly; I saw them take him to the floor.
Mr.Ball. Did you see Oswald strike any officer?
Mr.Gibson. [Shaking head for negative answer.]
Mr.Ball. You did not?
Mr.Gibson. Not that I saw.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear anybody say anything?
Mr.Gibson. Well, I heard the officers, but I don't remember what they said—I couldn't tell you if my life depended on it.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear Oswald say anything?
Mr.Gibson. No.
Mr.Ball. You mentioned the fact that they took him to the floor, you mean they actually went down in the floor of the theatre or close to it?
Mr.Gibson. Well, from where I was standing and looking across—they took him to the floor.
Mr.Ball. Were there any seats in the way when they fell?
Mr.Gibson. No; I was standing up—yes; there was seats in the way, but I was looking at an angle.
Mr.Ball. Did Oswald fall on the seats or on the floor?
Mr.Gibson. They fell on the floor as best I could tell.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you see happen?
Mr.Gibson. I didn't see anything happen—I walked back to the front.
Mr.Ball. Did you see Oswald leave the theatre?
Mr.Gibson. Yes; I saw the officers bring him out.
Mr.Ball. Describe what you saw at that time—I want to know how they had ahold of him?
Mr.Gibson. Well, right after they took him to the floor, as I said, he had a gun in his hand and I turned around and walked back into the lobby, the front part of the theatre, and just right after I walked out into the lobby, one of the policemen yelled, "Lock the doors," and so I walked up and started locking the doors and the head usher, Butch, came running out and he started at one end and I started at the other end. There was six or eight doors in the front, and we locked them up and then they brought Oswald through the door—there was two police officers that had ahold of him, and his arms were bent around behind him—like so [indicating].
Mr.Ball. And did the officer have his arm around his neck?
Mr.Gibson. I don't know—I don't think so—he did have a black eye and his shirt was about halfway torn off of him.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear Oswald say anything?
Mr.Gibson. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What did he say?
Mr.Gibson. He said, "I protest police brutality."
Mr.Ball. At any time did you see an officer, while the officers were struggling, with Oswald, did you see an officer strike Oswald with the butt of a shotgun?
Mr.Gibson. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Did you see a shotgun in the hands of any of the officers who were struggling with Oswald?
Mr.Gibson. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any officer in possession of a shotgun in the theatre?
Mr.Gibson. Oh—yes, yes; I saw quite a few in possession of a shotgun.
Mr.Ball. Were there any officers with shotguns near Oswald when he was struggling with these other officers?
Mr.Gibson. Gee, I don't know—that, I couldn't say—because like I say, when they took him down to the floor, all I could—or I should say down—I turned around and went back to the front.
Mr.Ball. Did you see the police talk to the other patrons of the theatre?
Mr.Gibson. Well, as I said, the only thing that they said to me—the first policeman that I saw in the theatre was right after the lights came on and he asked me if there was anyone upstairs, but I can't definitely say I saw them talking to anybody.
Mr.Ball. Well, did any officers talk to you afterwards and get your name and address?
Mr.Gibson. No.
Mr.Ball. Did you see them take the name and address of anybody else?
Mr.Gibson. No, sir; right after they put Lee Oswald in the police car and drove off, I walked outside and went back over to the store.
Mr.Ball. I understood that one group of the police headed for Oswald?
Mr.Gibson. Well, I don't believe they really headed for him—I believe they just started down through the theatre. From what the boy told me—Johnny Pardis told me, he followed him into the theatre and he went upstairs, and I believe this is why all the policemen went upstairs. I don't think they really headed for him. I mean, they just evidently, as I said, all of them went upstairs, with the exception of a small majority, say 6 or 8, maybe 12 downstairs and inside the theatre there.
Mr.Ball. Did they pass you on their way?
Mr.Gibson. You mean up the stairs?
Mr.Ball. No; the smaller party that was downstairs.
Mr.Gibson. No; I was standing on this far side right next to the wall.
Mr.Ball. And they were in an aisle over there?
Mr.Gibson. Well, actually, they were two or three aisles over—there's two big main aisles, and then there's another small aisle that runs down the wall.
Mr.Ball. Was there any other patron of the theatre along the way that they went?
Mr.Gibson. I don't know this, as I said, for a fact—this is what a lady at the show told me. She sent Butch, the head usher up on the stage to guard the exit back there and where he come from I don't know, because as I said,when they took him to the floor, then I turned around and walked out into the lobby and one officer hollered, "Lock the doors," and Butch came through there to the doors.
Mr.Ball. But you didn't see other officers go up to any other patrons of the theatre over there on their way to Oswald?
Mr.Gibson. No.
Mr.Ball. As they went along—they finally walked up and outside?
Mr.Gibson. No; they were just looking in general it appeared to me.
Mr.Ball. Was there anyone who was sitting closer to them than Oswald was?
Mr.Gibson. Gosh—I don't know—it's hard to remember, when you try.
Mr.Ball. You don't know why they went up to him and not someone else?
Mr.Gibson. Well, as I said—I don't think they went up to him. As I said, the first time I saw him in the theatre definitely was when he was standing in the aisle with a gun in his hand. Now, somebody told me that Oswald jumped up and whirled around and said, "This is it," but this is something I don't know, so this is hearsay.
Mr.Ball. But would you think he stood up first before any police officer got to him? Or that near him?
Mr.Gibson. He had to, because they took him from a standing position to the floor and he was standing up.
Mr.Ball. Did you see them before they came up to him?
Mr.Gibson. Yes; I was watching them there, I was just standing in the corner—as I said, just looking around the corner—there is a chance you can see in the corner and I was looking around it and as I said, I don't know whether he got up and whirled around or what he did, but when I saw him he was facing the police with a gun in his hand.
Mr.Ball. The first you saw him he was standing?
Mr.Gibson. He was standing.
Mr.Ball. And you didn't hear him say anything except on his way out?
Mr.Gibson. Except on his way out—is the only thing I heard him say.
Mr.Ball. This will be written up and you can come down and sign it if you want to, or you can waive your signature. What would you like to do?
Mr.Gibson. Well, I said it, I might as well sign it.
Mr.Ball. Okay. You will be called in to come down and sign it.
Mr.Gibson. Thanks very much.
Mr.Ball. Thank you.