Mr.Studebaker. It was on the window ledge, just like it is right there, and then this other box was beside it, and this box was turned up on end.
Mr.Ball. You say "this box turned up on end," you've got to give us a description of "this box"—you mean the box marked "books"?
Mr.Studebaker. The box marked "books"—now, we have—this thing is stapled here some place along this edge and you can see the staples in this other print. You can't see it in this print.
Mr.Ball. What other print?
Mr.Studebaker. When you make a negative, you have to put it on your exposure when you expose the thing, and you see, you lose part of your negative.
Mr.Ball. First, let me get back to what we were talking about first.
Mr.Studebaker. Well, this box was sitting right here—the first box in Exhibit A.
Mr.Ball. Wait just a minute—let me direct your attention to Exhibit B, does it show a box on the window ledge?
Mr.Studebaker. This box—the Second Rolling Readers.
Mr.Ball. That picture was taken before the box was moved?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. That box shown in the window ledge in Exhibit B was the Rolling Readers box?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And underneath that was another box?
Mr.Studebaker. Another Rolling Reader box?
Mr.Ball. And underneath that sitting on the floor was another box?
Mr.Studebaker. A box marked "books".
Mr.Ball. It was larger in size?
Mr.Studebaker. It was larger in size.
Mr.Ball. Than the Rolling Readers box?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Now, the one marked "books", how was that standing, was it on its end or on its side?
Mr.Studebaker. It was on its end. You see, these staples right along here, these staples show in another print. They don't show in this print—this is just a bad print.
Mr.Ball. When you say "in this," what is it?
Mr.Studebaker. This is Exhibit—what is it?
Mr.Ball. This is Exhibit A.
Mr.Studebaker. Exhibit A—it was standing on end.
Mr.Ball. Now, in Exhibit A—can you tell me looking at Exhibit A whether or not these boxes were over near the left-hand corner of the sill, to the left of the sill, looking out of the window, at the center, or over at the right.
Mr.Studebaker. They were in the left-hand corner of the window looking towards Elm Street.
Mr.Ball. How close to the edge of the sill?
Mr.Studebaker. Right at the edge.
Mr.Ball. Right at the edge?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, you show an indentation or a mark on the top of the box shown in Exhibit A, is that a little Rolling Reader box?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, we have a picture here which we will mark "Exhibit E."
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit E," for identification.)
Mr.Ball. This is a picture of the fifth and sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository taken by a photographer right after shots were fired at President Kennedy.
Can you tell me whether or not the Rolling Readers box you identified in Exhibit A is shown in that picture?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Studebaker. That's the top corner.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Studebaker. That's this corner right here.
Mr.Ball. Let's put a circle around that so we can identify that.
Mr.Studebaker. Have you got a ballpoint pen?
(Witness Studebaker marks the instrument referred to as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr.Ball. The circle surrounds that box, is that correct?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. There is another box shown in Exhibit E here over to the right of the window as you stand looking out of the window.
Mr.Studebaker. It would be these boxes back over in here—it would be the top of those boxes.
Mr.Ball. How far were they away from the window?
Mr.Studebaker. I would have to look at the measurements—I have the measurements down here. This is the box you see right there, in that picture. You see, these boxes were stacked all up on top of each one.
Mr.Ball. You are referring to Exhibit A?
Mr.Studebaker. Exhibit A.
Mr.Ball. And it is the row of boxes?
Mr.Studebaker. Behind this window—that's the top of that box—that's all it is.
Mr.Ball. It is the top of a box that is shown in this picture?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And they were set back from the window 2 or 3 feet, were they?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, they were about 18 inches is all that was.
Mr.Ball. Let's make two circles—one circle around the top of the Rolling Readers and one circle around the top of the other box. So, the people who read this can understand it, make the Rolling Readers circle an "X" circle and mark it out here—mark "X" and the other circle a "Y" circle.
(Witness Studebaker marked the exhibit referred to as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr.Ball. Now, the Rolling Readers box, which is shown in the "X" circle on this Exhibit E, where was that with reference to the window sill itself?
Mr.Studebaker. Sitting right on the sill.
Mr.Ball. And the box that is shown in the picture as around the "Y" circle of Exhibit E, that was how far from the window itself?
Mr.Studebaker. Approximately 18 inches from the inside brick of the window.
Mr.Ball. And that little aisleway is shown on Exhibits A and B?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, on A and B.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you at any time see any paper sack around there?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Studebaker. Storage room there—in the southeast corner of the building—folded.
Mr.Ball. In the southeast corner of the building?
Mr.Studebaker. It was a paper—I don't know what it was.
Mr.Ball. And it was folded, you say?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Where was it with respect to the three boxes of which the top two were Rolling Readers?
Mr.Studebaker. Directly east.
Mr.Ball. There is a corner there, isn't it?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir; in the southeast corner.
Mr.Ball. It was in the southeast corner?
Mr.Studebaker. I drew that box in for somebody over at the FBI thatsaid you wanted it. It is in one of those pictures—one of the shots after the duplicate shot.
Mr.Ball. Let's mark this picture "Exhibit F."
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit F," for identification.)
Mr.Ball. Do you know who took that picture?
Mr.Studebaker. No; I don't.
Mr.Ball. Do you recognize the diagram?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you draw the diagram?
Mr.Studebaker. I drew a diagram in there for the FBI, somebody from the FBI called me down—I can't think of his name, and he wanted an approximate location of where the paper was found.
Mr.Ball. Does that show the approximate location?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Where you have the dotted lines?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Now, there is something that looks like steam pipes or water pipes in the corner there?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Where was that with reference to those pipes—the paper wrapping?
Mr.Studebaker. Laying right beside it—right here.
Mr.Ball. Was it folded over?
Mr.Studebaker. It was doubled—it was a piece of paper about this long and it was doubled over.
Mr.Ball. How long was it, approximately?
Mr.Studebaker. I don't know—I picked it up and dusted it and they took it down there and sent it to Washington and that's the last I have seen of it, and I don't know.
Mr.Ball. Did you take a picture of it before you picked it up?
Mr.Studebaker. No.
Mr.Ball. Does that sack show in any of the pictures you took?
Mr.Studebaker. No; it doesn't show in any of the pictures.
Mr.Ball. Was it near the window?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Which way from the window?
Mr.Studebaker. It was east of the window.
Mr.Ball. Over in the corner?
Mr.Studebaker. Over in the corner—in the southeast corner of the building, in the far southeast corner, as far as you can get is where it was.
Mr.Ball. You say you dusted it?
Mr.Studebaker. With that magnetic powders.
Mr.Ball. Did you lift any prints?
Mr.Studebaker. There wasn't but just smudges on it—is all it was. There was one little ole piece of a print and I'm sure I put a piece of tape on it to preserve it.
Mr.Ball. Well, then, there was a print that you found on it?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes; just a partial print.
Mr.Ball. The print of a finger or palm or what?
Mr.Studebaker. You couldn't tell, it was so small.
Mr.Ball. But you did dust it and lift some print?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. When you say you taped it, what did you do, cover it with some paper?
Mr.Studebaker. We have—it's like a Magic Mending Tape, only we use it just strictly for fingerprinting.
Mr.Ball. Let's stick with the paper.
Mr.Studebaker. Well, on the paper I put a piece of 1 inch tape over it—I'm sure I did.
Mr.Ball. After you dusted the print, you put a 1 inch tape over it?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you also lift a print off of the box?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. You lifted a print off of a box?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Where was the box?
Mr.Studebaker. The box was due north of the paper that was found, and it was, I believe, we have it that it was—I can read the measurements off of one of these things—how far it was.
Mr.Ball. Fine, do that.
Mr.Studebaker. It was 16½ inches from the—from this wall over here (indicating).
Mr.Ball. Which wall are you talking about?
Mr.Studebaker. It was from the south wall of the building.
Mr.Ball. Did you take a picture of that box in place before it was moved?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. The box from which you lifted the prints?
Mr.Studebaker. This box never was moved.
Mr.Ball. That box never was moved?
Mr.Studebaker. That box never was moved.
Mr.Ball. And you took a picture of it?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And that was the location of it when you lifted the print of it?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And may I have that, please, and we will mark it Exhibit G.
Mr.Studebaker. I was with them in the corner all the time—they were with me, rather, I guess Captain Fritz told them to stay with us and help us in case they were needed.
Mr.Ball. Johnson and Montgomery?
Mr.Studebaker. Johnson and Montgomery—they were with me all the time over in that one corner.
Mr.Ball. Now, we have here a picture which we will mark "G."
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit G," for identification.)
Mr.Ball. This is your No. 26, and that shows the box, does it?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And that was its location with reference to the corner?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir; that's the exact location.
Mr.Ball. Can you draw in there showing us where the paper sack was found?
(Witness Studebaker drew on instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr.Ball. That would be directly south?
Mr.Studebaker. That would be directly south of where the box was.
Mr.Ball. You have drawn an outline in ink on the map in the southeast corner. Now, that box is how many inches, as shown in this picture?
Mr.Studebaker. It is 16 inches from the south wall.
Mr.Ball. You say you lifted a print there off of this box?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And now, is that shown in the picture?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What shows in the picture, can you tell me what shows in the picture? Describe what you see there.
Mr.Studebaker. Well, there is a box with a partial print on the—it would be the northwest corner of the box.
Mr.Ball. Was that a palm print or a fingerprint?
Mr.Studebaker. A palm.
Mr.Ball. It was a palm print?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And does it show the direction of the palm?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Which way?
Mr.Studebaker. West.
Mr.Ball. It would be made with thehand——
Mr.Studebaker. With the right hand sitting on the box.
Mr.Ball. And the fingers pointed west, is that it?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, you outlined that before you took the picture, did you?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And that is the outline shown in this picture?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, in Exhibit F, does that also show—did you attempt to show the diagram of the palm in Exhibit F; did you do that?
Mr.Studebaker. No; could I?
Mr.Ball. Did you?
Mr.Studebaker. Did I do this?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Studebaker. No.
Mr.Ball. But, does that correspond with your opinion as to the direction of the hand, the position of the hand at the time the palm print was made?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. There were no fingers shown in that print, just the palm print?
Mr.Studebaker. No, sir; just the palm print.
Mr.Ball. Now, do you have some more pictures there to show me?
Mr.Studebaker. Well, I've got a bunch of them. I made this diagram of the whole sixth floor of that building. This isn't the original, and J. B. Hicks and I measured this thing and I drew the diagram.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you find a two-wheeled truck up there?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And did you take a picture of it?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Let me see that one.
Mr.Studebaker. All right—it has the Dr. Pepper bottle and the paper sack that was sitting there in the picture.
Mr.Ball. Let me see that one.
Mr.Studebaker. (Handed instrument to Counsel Ball.)
There are two different views of it—there's one and here's one. That was before anything was touched and before it was dusted. This is a shot—I believe that's in the third aisle and let's see what it is marked—it's the sixth floor of 411 Elm Street looking south and the third aisle from Houston Street on the south side of the building. That was taken looking directly into that—this is the sack with those chicken bones and all that mess was in there too.
Mr.Ball. Is the sack shown there?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes; it's a little ole brown sack—yes; it's right there.
Mr.Ball. We will mark this as "Exhibit H," which is your No. 6.
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit H," for identification.)
Mr.Ball. That's the sack, is that right?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And it shows—it has some chicken bones in it?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Any chicken bones in any other place?
Mr.Studebaker. No.
Mr.Ball. None outside the sack?
Mr.Studebaker. No; they were all inside the sack, wrapped up and put right back in. It had a little piece of Fritos in the sack, too.
Mr.Ball. Then, we will have the next picture marked Exhibit I, which shows the Dr. Pepper bottle with the two-wheeler, is that right?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit I," for identification.)
Mr.Ball. And that's your No. 7.
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. That's the third row over?
Mr.Studebaker. That's the third aisle from Houston Street.
Mr.Ball. That would be the third set of windows?
Mr.Studebaker. That would be the third set of windows—it would be—one, two, three.
Mr.Ball. The third set of windows from Houston Street—you mark it.
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
(Instrument marked by the witness Studebaker as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr.Ball. Now, did you see a chicken bone over near the boxes in the southeast corner, over near where you found the cartridges and the paper sack?
Mr.Studebaker. I don't believe there was one there.
Mr.Ball. You didn't see any. One witness, a deputy sheriff named Luke Looney said he found a piece of chicken partly eaten up on top of one of the boxes; did you see anything like that?
Mr.Studebaker. No.
Mr.Ball. Was anything like that called to your attention?
Mr.Studebaker. I can't recall anything like that. It ought to be in one of these pictures, if it is.
Mr.Ball. You made a map of that sixth floor and identified pictures by numbers, did you not?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You made a measurement of the distance from the window ledge to the sidewalk, didn't you?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. How many feet?
Mr.Studebaker. Let me see—61 feet from the window ledge to the sidewalk.
Mr.Ball. Now, this is such a good set of pictures, can we have them?
Mr.Studebaker. You will have to see Chief Curry. He gave orders that no pictures were to be released without his permission. You can call him, if you want to.
Mr.Ball. Well, I already have taken some of them.
Mr.Studebaker. I'm sure he will. We have printed about 10,000 of them—it seems like that and I don't imagine that two or three more would make any difference. This is out of a master set—all of these pictures you have here.
Mr.Ball. The picture of the boxes; this is after they were moved?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir; they were moved there. This is exactly the position they were in.
Mr.Ball. It is?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes—not—this was after they were moved, but I put them back in the same exact position.
Mr.Ball. Were they that close—that was about the position?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Let's take one of these pictures and mark it the next number, which will be "Exhibit J."
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit J," for identification.)
Mr.Ball. After the boxes of Rolling Readers had been moved, you put them back in the same position?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And took a picture?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And this is Exhibit J, is it, is that right?
Mr.Studebaker. Exhibit J, yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, the box that had the print on it is shown?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Let's put a few hieroglyphics on here—a few numbers on here. Let's put the box with the print that was found as 1.
Mr.Studebaker. You want 1 marked on this box?
(Witness Studebaker marked instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr.Ball. And the place where the paper sack was found as No. 2 and the box that had the indentation on it, let's mark it No. 3.
Mr.Studebaker. (Marked instruments as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr.Ball. And outline the indentation with a circle.
Mr.Studebaker. (Witness executed outline as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr.Ball. Was there any other indentation on that box besides that which is shown in the circle on 3?
Mr.Studebaker. No.
Mr.Ball. That's the only one?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, you see, I dusted these first, because I figured he might have stacked them up.
Mr.Ball. Did you find any prints?
Mr.Studebaker. No prints, and then I was standing right there and I told Johnson and Montgomery that there should be a print, and I turned around and figured he might have been standing right in there, and I dusted all these poles here and there wasn't no prints on any of it and started dusting this big box, No. 1 here, and lifted the print off of that box.
Mr.Ball. Did you later examine that print that you lifted off of that box in your crime lab?
Mr.Studebaker. I was up in that building until 1 o'clock that morning and got there at 1 and left at 1 and they had seized all of our evidence and I haven't seen it since.
Lieutenant Day compared the print before it was released to Oswald's print.
Mr.Ball. He did?
Mr.Studebaker. He compared it as Oswald's right palm print.
Mr.Ball. Did you put some masking tape over that bit of cardboard before you moved it?
Mr.Studebaker. As soon as the print was lifted, you see, I taped it and then they took the print down there. They just took the top corner of this box down there.
Mr.Ball. They just took the top part of the box down there?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, and when we took this picture, we took it back—that stuff has been up there and back until I was so confused I don't know what was going on.
Mr.Ball. You mean, when you took the picture which is marked ExhibitJ——
Mr.Studebaker. This picture has the palm print on it.
Mr.Ball. It has the palm print—it had been removed and had been identified and brought back and put in the box?
Mr.Studebaker. It had been brought back and put in the box and as being Oswald's right palm print.
Mr.Ball. So, in Exhibit J, you put the cardboard back on the box?
Mr.Studebaker. On the box, yes, sir; where it was found.
Mr.Ball. Where you had found it? You put the Rolling Readers boxes back where you first saw them?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And then you took a picture?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. So, this Exhibit J, gives us the scene as you saw it?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Before the boxes were moved?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And before the palm print was identified?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you find any prints on that sack that had the chicken bones in it?
Mr.Studebaker. No.
Mr.Ball. Did you find any prints on boxes around where that sack was found?
Mr.Studebaker. No, no prints.
Mr.Ball. Or the two-wheeler truck?
Mr.Studebaker. No.
Mr.Ball. No prints?
Mr.Studebaker. No.
Mr.Ball. You dusted around there for them?
Mr.Studebaker. I dusted everything around that area. There was just smears and smudges on the bottom.
Mr.Ball. Did you dust the rifle?
Mr.Studebaker. No, sir; Lieutenant Day handled the rifle part of it. I didn't mess with the rifle at all. He took it down to the city hall and they worked on it down there at the lab.
Mr.Ball. Do you have the measurements of the boxes?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, I have all the measurements.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Studebaker. Down at the city hall.
Mr.Ball. Let's take Exhibit J—how did the height of the little Rolling Reader box on the window sill compare with the height of the box you have marked "3" that had the indentation on it?
Mr.Studebaker. It was lower, approximately 3 or 4 inches lower than the box marked "Exhibit 3, or No. 3" in the picture.
Mr.Ball. Which box was lower, tell us which box was lower?
Mr.Studebaker. The box on the sill was lower than the box—do you want to mark it "4"—the box in the window?
Mr.Ball. The box in the window, you mark it "4," if you wish.
Mr.Studebaker. (Marked instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr.Ball. Now, tell us which box, identifying it by number.
Mr.Studebaker. Box No. 4 in the window was approximately 3 to 4 inches lower than Box No. 3 pictured in the picture of Exhibit J.
Mr.Ball. Now, do you have any questions to ask him on any other subject matters, and if you do go ahead and ask him.
Mr.Stern. Perhaps this is not the witness to establish it, but I think it might be useful to know if he has any opinion as to why the boxes were placed that way?
Mr.Studebaker. A good gun rest.
Mr.Stern. In that arrangement?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, it was a good gun rest.
Mr.Stern. With the box in front lower than the box behind?
Mr.Studebaker. In other words, it's like this—you see—it would be down on a level like this—it shows where the butt of the gun was up behind him here. He was down like this—nobody could see him from the street. He was behind this window. He didn't shoot this way because everybody would be looking right at him.
Mr.Ball. Now, how big was this paper that you saw—you saw the wrapper—tell me about how big that paper bag was—how long was it?
Mr.Studebaker. It was about, I would say, 3½ to 4 feet long.
Mr.Ball. The paper bag?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And how wide was it?
Mr.Studebaker. Approximately 8 inches.
Mr.Ball. Mr. Studebaker, this testimony will be written up and it will be submitted to you if you wish, for your signature. You can read it over and sign it, or it is your option that you can waive your signature and we will send it right on up to the Commission.
Which do you prefer?
Mr.Studebaker. Whichever is the easiest for you.
Mr.Ball. It is easier for you if you don't have to read it, of course, but you have a right to read it and sign it, whichever you want to do.
Mr.Studebaker. Well, I will read it and sign it.
Mr.Ball. All right. She will notify you.
Mr.Studebaker. Okay.
Mr.Ball. Thank you very much.
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
The testimony of C. N. Dhority was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian was present.
Mr.Ball. My name is Joe Ball. Will you stand up and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Will you state your name, please?
Mr.Dhority. C. N. Dhority.
Mr.Ball. And what is your occupation?
Mr.Dhority. Detective with the Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Ball. You understand, don't you, that we are inquiring here as to the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, do you not?
Mr.Dhority. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And you have been requested to come up here and give your testimony?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you are willing to testify to such matters that came to your attention during your investigation of that assassination, are you not?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education is, and how long you have been here with the Department?
Mr.Dhority. Well, I was born in Tuscumbia, Ala., in August 1923, and lived there until I was about 10 years old, and have been in Dallas the rest of the time.
I have been on the police department since August 24, 1946.
Mr.Ball. What department do you work with?
Mr.Dhority. I work for Captain Fritz.
Mr.Ball. Homicide?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. How long have you been in the Homicide Department?
Mr.Dhority. Since 1955.
Mr.Ball. On November 22, 1963, what time did you go to work?
Mr.Dhority. Oh, I believe it was around 2 p.m.
Mr.Ball. Was that the time you usually went to work?
Mr.Dhority. No, I was off that day.
Mr.Ball. Well, how did you happen to go to work that day?
Mr.Dhority. Lt. Wells called me and told me to come to work.
Mr.Ball. And you went to work at the main office of the Police Department?
Mr.Dhority. Yes.
Mr.Ball. You arrived at about 2 p.m.?
Mr.Dhority. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Do you usually work with another detective?
Mr.Dhority. Yes. H. H. Blessing.
Mr.Ball. Was he on duty that day with you?
Mr.Dhority. I don't believe so. He got shot last December and has been in pretty bad shape. He just works sometimes and I don't know whether he was there that day.
Mr.Ball. Did you work with anybody that day, November 22, after you came to work?
Mr.Dhority. I worked part of the day with C. W. Brown; he's a patrolman temporarily assigned to that bureau.
Mr.Ball. What is the first thing you did that day after you came to work?
Mr.Dhority. I started answering telephones, I believe; they were all ringing.
Mr.Ball. And did you later see Lee Oswald?
Mr.Dhority. Yes.
Mr.Ball. About what time was the first time you saw him?
Mr.Dhority. I don't recall exactly what time it was—he was in Captain Fritz' office.
Mr.Ball. On November 22, did you ever sit in on the questioning, sit in a group where Oswald was questioned?
Mr.Dhority. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. What was the first thing that you did that day with respect to the investigation of the President's assassination?
Mr.Dhority. Around 6 p.m., Detective Brown and myself went out and got Mr. McWatters from the bus in front of the city hall there and brought him into the lineup and took an affidavit off of him.
Mr.Ball. You were with Mr. McWatters, were you, in the lineup during the showup?
Mr.Dhority. Yeah.
Mr.Ball. That was about what time?
Mr.Dhority. About 6:30. I don't recall.
Mr.Ball. You two men were with him?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. There was some other people there also at that time, weren't there; some other witnesses?
Mr.Dhority. Quite a few down there as well as I recall, in the showup room.
Mr.Ball. At the showup room?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you talk to any of them?
Mr.Dhority. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you talk to a man named W. W. Whaley at that time?
Mr.Dhority. Whaley, that's a cabdriver?
Mr.Ball. The cabdriver.
Mr.Dhority. I don't believe that was that night—I was thinking that was the next day.
Mr.Ball. Well, did you at some time talk to Whaley?
Mr.Dhority. Well, briefly, I took him back down to the cab company down there.
Mr.Ball. Did you talk to a fellow at this showup at 6:30, did you talk to anybody named Sam Guinyard? Or Ted Callaway?
Mr.Dhority. I don't recall the names.
Mr.Ball. But at this showup at 6:30 you and Brown were with McWatters, were you not?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Was there a Leavelle there, J. R. Leavelle—a detective?
Mr.Dhority. I don't recall—he could have been—there was quite a few officers there.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember what occurred at the showup?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir; he identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the four-man lineup.
Mr.Ball. Were any questions asked of the men in the lineup?
Mr.Dhority. I don't recall—I wasn't holding the showup. I was just with him and viewing the lineup. I believe that someone up there did that.
Mr.Ball. What did McWatters say to you?
Mr.Dhority. He identified him as the man that rode on the bus and said he wasn't for sure exactly where he picked him up, but he said he believed that he got off shortly after he got on the bus, but after he identified him he went upstairs and looked at a transfer that Detective Sims had took out of Oswald's pocket, and he positively identified the transfer as his transfer.
Mr.Ball. You took McWatters' affidavit after that, didn't you?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Right after he had made an identification?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Of Oswald?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. At that time, and I'll show you a copy of an affidavit by McWatters, and will you take a look at that, please?
Mr.Dhority. [Examined instrument referred to.]
Mr.Ball. Mr. Dhority, after the showup, did you take the affidavit from Mr. McWatters?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, I did.
Mr.Ball. Now, in the affidavit here he says he picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm and Houston and went out on Marsalis and picked up a woman, and then he mentions that as he went out, "This man wasgrinning and never did say anything. The woman said that it was not a grinning matter. I don't remember where I let this man off. This man looks like the No. 2 man I saw in a lineup tonight."
Now, you read that, didn't you?
Mr.Dhority. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Now, you say he identified Oswald, he identified him as a man that he had seen before doing what—did he tell you?
Mr.Dhority. No, I just asked him if he saw the man there that he picked up, and he said it was the No. 2 man.
I don't know whether you've talked to him or not.
Mr.Ball. Yes, I have.
Mr.Dhority. But to me, he is the type of person that the longer you talk to him—he just goes and he will try, to me, he will try to say, "Well, I'm sure it was," but then he would go on with something else.
Mr.Ball. Well, what I want to know is this—he identified Oswald, but did he tell you where he had seen Oswald before and what Oswald had done?
Mr.Dhority. Well, just like that affidavit there, he says he thought he picked him up down there close to the Book Depository on Elm.
Mr.Ball. Did he tell you that? As he went out on Marsalis that some man on the bus had grinned at a woman when the woman mentioned that the President had been shot?
Mr.Dhority. I don't know exactly for word to word—it's in the affidavit there.
Mr.Ball. This is the story he told you that's in the affidavit; is that right?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir; after he gave me the affidavit and we were walking back across the street to the bus, he said. "Well, I think he went out on Marsalis with me." He said, "He could have got off sooner."
Mr.Ball. Well, I want to read this affidavit into the record. It says:
"The State of Texas, County of Dallas
"Before me, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Cecil J. McWatters, 2523 Blyth, DA 1-2999, Dallas, Texas, Business Address: Dallas Transit Company.
"Who, after being by me duly sworn on oath deposes and says: Today, November 22, 1963, about 12:40 p.m. I was driving Marsalis Bus No. 1213. I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston. I went on out Marsalis and picked up a woman. I asked her if she knew the President had been shot and she thought I was kidding. I told her if she did not believe me to ask the man behind her that he had told me the President was shot in the temple. This man was grinning and never did say anything. The woman said that it was not a grinning matter. I don't remember where I let this man off. This man looks like the #2 man I saw in a lineup tonight. The transfer #004459 is a transfer from my bus with my punch mark."
Is that about what McWatters told you?
Mr.Dhority. That's what he told me when I was taking the affidavit from him. Like I say, when I was walking back across the street with him to the bus he said he wasn't for sure that he did ride down on Marsalis.
Mr.Ball. Now, on this same night, did you show him this transfer No. 004459?
Mr.Dhority. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Issued by the Dallas Transit Co?
Mr.Dhority. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And what did he tell you about that?
Mr.Dhority. He said it was definitely a transfer that he issued and showed me his punch that he carried and he matched the punch on the transfer.
Mr.Ball. Now, did Captain Fritz give you some rifle shells to deliver to somebody?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. About what time of the night or day was that?
Mr.Dhority. I don't recall when it was, but, from his office there I took them up to the crime lab.
Mr.Ball. Were there three spent 6.5 rifle shells, is that right?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you return any shells to Captain Fritz?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. All of them or one of them?
Mr.Dhority. No; he told me to bring him one back.
Mr.Ball. You brought one back in an envelope?
Mr.Dhority. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And Lieutenant Day kept two; is that right?
Mr.Dhority. That's right.
Mr.Ball. Were you present when paraffin casts were made of Oswald's hands and his face?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Who made them?
Mr.Dhority. I believe that was Pete Barnes and Johnny Hicks, as well as I remember.
Mr.Ball. Did you attend another showup?
Mr.Dhority. Yes.
Mr.Ball. When was that?
Mr.Dhority. That was about, oh, approximately an hour later after the McWatters showup and there was a Mrs. Davis there.
Mr.Ball. That was the same day?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Tell me, did somebody send you out to her house?
Mr.Dhority. Yes; Lieutenant Wells sent me out there.
Mr.Ball. What was her first name?
Mr.Dhority. Well, there were two of them—I don't recall for sure—as well as I remember—it was Mrs. Jeanette Davis.
Mr.Ball. There were two girls—Virginia and Jeanette?
Mr.Dhority. Virginia and Jeanette Davis, and I took the affidavit from Virginia, as well as I recall it.
Mr.Ball. You went from the police department out to the Oak Cliff region someplace, didn't you?
Mr.Dhority. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Dhority. 400 East 10th.
Mr.Ball. Who sent you out there?
Mr.Dhority. Lieutenant Wells.
Mr.Ball. Who went with you?
Mr.Dhority. C. W. Brown.
Mr.Ball. And what address did you go to?
Mr.Dhority. 400 East 10th.
Mr.Ball. Who did you see there?
Mr.Dhority. Well, there were quite a few people in the house there, but we were told to contact Virginia Davis and her sister, Jeanette Davis.
Mr.Ball. And, did you talk to them?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did they give you anything?
Mr.Dhority. Virginia gave me a .38 hull.
Mr.Ball. Did she tell you where she got it?
Mr.Dhority. I believe that she said that she found it in her front yard, as well as I remember.
Mr.Ball. What did you do after that?
Mr.Dhority. We carried them down to the police department and took affidavits off of them and they went to the lineup.
Mr.Dhority. They identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the lineup.
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. With them?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. That was about what time of the night?
Mr.Dhority. The lineup—I imagine was about 7:30.
Mr.Ball. 7:30 at night. And who was in the lineup?
Mr.Dhority. They identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the lineup.
Mr.Ball. Who else was in the lineup?
Mr.Dhority. I don't know.
Mr.Ball. You didn't have that?
Mr.Dhority. No; I didn't hold the lineup.
Mr.Ball. What do you call that lineup, is that the number showup in your report?
Mr.Dhority. I don't have a report showing any numbers.
Mr.Ball. Were you with Virginia and Jeanette Davis, standing with them?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And that was about what time of night, you said, 7:30?
Mr.Dhority. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Your records show that on November 22, 1963, there was a showup at 7:55 p.m.
Mr.Dhority. Well, I don't recall exactly what time it was.
Mr.Ball. Anyway, tell me how that showup was conducted, what did you say to these people?
Mr.Dhority. Well, I was there with them and there at the time of the showup, and they bothwere——
Mr.Ball. I know—but how was it conducted—did somebody ask questions?
Mr.Dhority. Well, as I recall, somebody was holding the showup and there was other people there at the same time looking at them.
Mr.Ball. Did somebody ask questions of the men in the showup?
Mr.Dhority. I think they did.
Mr.Ball. Did you?
Mr.Dhority. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you show these two Davis girls a picture of anybody before they went in there, did you ever show them Oswald's picture?
Mr.Dhority. No; I didn't; no, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you tell them at the house, what did you tell them before you brought them down?
Mr.Dhority. I just told them I wanted to take an affidavit off of them and to take them down to a showup.
Mr.Ball. Down to a showup?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. When you were in the showup, did you say anything to them?
Mr.Dhority. Did I say anything to them?
Mr.Ball. During the showup, did you say anything to the two girls?
Mr.Dhority. I don't recall saying anything to them at all.
Mr.Ball. What did they tell you?
Mr.Dhority. They said that the No. 2 man looked like the man, as well as I remember.
Mr.Ball. "Looked like the man"—looked like the man what?
Mr.Dhority. I believe she said that run across her yard, as well as I remember. It's in the affidavit.
Mr.Ball. Who took the affidavit?
Mr.Dhority. I took the one from Virginia, I believe.
Mr.Ball. And who took the one from Jeanette?
Mr.Dhority. I believe Brown took that one.
Mr.Ball. Now, what did you do with the empty hull that was given to you, that Virginia gave you?
Mr.Dhority. I gave it to Lieutenant Day in the crime lab.
Mr.Ball. Do you know whether or not Virginia or Jeanette Davis found an empty shell—did she tell you she found an empty shell—Jeanette Davis?
Mr.Dhority. I don't recall—it seems like she told me she had found one earlier and gave it to the police out there, as well as I remember.
Mr.Ball. Gave it to the police that day?
Mr.Dhority. Yes; I believe so.
Mr.Ball. I have here an affidavit signed "Mrs. Virginia Davis," is that a copy of the affidavit that you took from Virginia that day?
Mr.Dhority. [Reads instrument referred to.] Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. I would like to have this and the preceding affidavits marked as Exhibits Nos.—Mr. McWatters' will be Dhority "Exhibit No. A," and Mrs. Davis' affidavit will be "Exhibit No. B," of Mr. Dhority's deposition.
(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Dhority "Exhibits Nos. A and B," for identification.)
Mr.Ball. Did you do anything more that day, Friday the 22d? You told us you watched the preparation of the paraffin casts.
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Is there anything more you did that day?
Mr.Dhority. I don't recall anything particularly. I did quite a bit of telephone answering of the telephone there at the city hall—there was so much going on at the city hall, I can't recall everything.
Mr.Ball. Now, on the next day, November 23, you took part in a showup, didn't you?
Mr.Dhority. I didn't take part in the one on the cabdriver there.
Mr.Ball. Were you present?
Mr.Dhority. I was present—what it was—they wanted me to take the cabdriver's—me and Brown, to take the cabdriver back down to the station, and I believe we walked into the showup room while there was a showup—the showup had just started or was going on and we walked in there and Mr. Alexander from the district attorney's office was also there.