Mr.Belin. Did you hear what he said when he picked it up?
Mr.Hutson. I heard something—someone make the statement that that looks like the suspect's jacket. He has thrown it down. He is not wearing it now.
Mr.Belin. Where is this Texaco station?
Mr.Hutson. It is in the 400 block of East Jefferson at the intersection. It is on the northeast corner of the intersection of Crawford and Jefferson.
Mr.Belin. How far north of Jefferson would this jacket have been when it was found?
Mr.Hutson. One-half block.
Mr.Belin. Do you know the name of the officer that found it?
Mr.Hutson. No, sir; I don't know.
Mr.Belin. What happened to the jacket?
Mr.Hutson. The last time I saw this jacket, the officer had it in his possession.
Mr.Belin. Do you know who he gave it to?
Mr.Hutson. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Belin. You don't know if he gave it to Captain Westbrook?
Mr.Hutson. I don't know. Captain Westbrook was there behind the house with us, and he was there at the time this was picked up with the man, but I don't know who had it in their hands. The only time I saw it was when the officer had it.
Mr.Belin. Showing you Commission Exhibit 150, have you ever seen this before, or not?
Mr.Hutson. It looks like the shirt that the person was wearing that we arrested in the theatre.
Mr.Belin. Officer, you have the right, if you want, to come back and read your deposition and sign it, or you can waive the signing and let the court reporter send it to us directly in Washington. Do you desire to do either one?
Mr.Hutson. I will go ahead and sign it.
Mr.Belin. The court reporter can get in touch with you at the Dallas Police Department, is that correct?
Mr.Hutson. Yes.
Mr.Belin. We want to thank you very much for your cooperation, and please convey my thanks to your sergeant or captain, whoever is in charge.
Mr.Hutson. All right, nice to have seen you all.
The testimony of C. T. Walker was taken at 1:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Belin. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Walker. I do.
Mr.Belin. What is your name, please?
Mr.Walker. C. T. Walker.
Mr.Belin. What is your occupation, Mr. Walker?
Mr.Walker. Accident investigations at the Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Belin. How old are you?
Mr.Walker. I am 31 years old.
Mr.Belin. Married?
Mr.Walker. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Family?
Mr.Walker. One child. One girl.
Mr.Belin. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Walker. Five years in July.
Mr.Belin. What did you do prior to that?
Mr.Walker. I worked in Chance Vought Aircraft, in Grand Prairie.
Mr.Belin. Where were you born?
Mr.Walker. Stephenville, Tex.—I wasn't born there, I am sorry. I was born in Slaton, Tex.
Mr.Belin. Where were you born?
Mr.Walker. Slaton, Tex.
Mr.Belin. Where did you go to school?
Mr.Walker. Stephenville, Tex.
Mr.Belin. Did you you go to high school there?
Mr.Walker. I didn't finish high school.
Mr.Belin. How far did you finish?
Mr.Walker. Tenth grade.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Walker. I went to work at that time for Consolidated Aircraft in Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr.Belin. How long did you work for them?
Mr.Walker. Approximately 2 years.
Mr.Belin. What did you do?
Mr.Walker. Aircraft mechanic work.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Walker. I worked—I went back to Slaton, Tex., and worked for my uncle there for 1 year drilling irrigation wells.
Mr.Belin. After that what did you do?
Mr.Walker. I came back to Grand Prairie and went to work there and worked there 5½ years.
Mr.Belin. Doing what?
Mr.Walker. Aircraft mechanic and electrical work.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Walker. I came to work for the Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Belin. When was that?
Mr.Walker. 1959, July the 27th.
Mr.Belin. And you have been there ever since?
Mr.Walker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?
Mr.Walker. Yes; I was.
Mr.Belin. Will you state where you were on duty around 12 or 12:30 or so on that day?
Mr.Walker. I was at Jefferson and Tenth Street at the fire station.
Mr.Belin. Is that in the Oak Cliff section there?
Mr.Walker. Yes; it is.
Mr.Belin. What were you doing there?
Mr.Walker. I was cruising the area and I had heard on the radio about the disturbance downtown, so I checked out at the fire station. I didn't check out. I just stopped and went in and listened to the news broadcast to find out in more detail what happened.
Mr.Belin. Were you cruising alone at that time?
Mr.Walker. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Is it general procedure for officers cruising in the daytime to work alone or in pairs?
Mr.Walker. Accident investigations, we work alone. That is day and night.
Mr.Belin. Day and night?
Mr.Walker. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What about nonaccident investigation? Do you know offhand?
Mr.Walker. Radio patrol work, one man during the day. Second and third platoon, they work two men.
Mr.Belin. That would be the second platoon would come to work about 4 in the afternoon?
Mr.Walker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr.Walker. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Ever work with him at all?
Mr.Walker. I believe I have. I can't recall. I worked at the same substation he did before I transferred downtown, and I knew him quite well. I talked to him. He worked at Austin, and I have talked to him there.
Mr.Belin. Well, let's leave Officer Tippit for the moment and return to the fire station. You were there and you say you called in around shortly after you heard the news?
Mr.Walker. Yes. I went directly there. I was about a block away or might have been in the block I don't recall exactly.
Mr.Belin. You mean a block away from the fire station?
Mr.Walker. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do when you called in?
Mr.Walker. I didn't call in. I just went in there and looked. They have a television there, and they broadcast that the President had been shot.
I had my radio up so I could hear from the door, and I went back out to my car. They were sending squads downtown, Code 3.
And I don't recall, I don't believe they actually sent me. I just went on my own because they normally don't send us in this type of call.
Mr.Belin. So you went on your own where?
Mr.Walker. I went to the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr.Belin. That is at Elm and Houston?
Mr.Walker. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Where did you park your car?
Mr.Walker. Right in front of the building.
Mr.Belin. What did you do after you got your car parked?
Mr.Walker. Went inside the building.
Mr.Belin. Where did you go inside?
Mr.Walker. I went right inside the front doors there and the hallway there and I stayed in there.
Mr.Belin. What did you do?
Mr.Walker. Well, there was squads of police upstairs supposedly searching the building out, and someone said they have enough upstairs, so I didn't go upstairs.
MrBelin. What did you do when you were downstairs?
Mr.Walker. We were checking persons as they came in the building.
Mr.Belin. Did you keep people from coming in or going out, or what?
Mr.Walker. We didn't let anyone in or out except policemen.
Mr.Belin. About how soon after you saw the telecast do you think you got down there?
Mr.Walker. Ten or fifteen minutes.
Mr.Belin. Was the building sealed off at that time?
Mr.Walker. Yes; it was.
Mr.Belin. Did anyone tell you when they got it sealed off, or not?
Mr.Walker. No; they didn't.
Mr.Belin. What did you do after that?
Mr.Walker. I heard that an officer had been killed in Oak Cliff, had been shot, and I got back in my car and started off. A newsman ran up to the window and said, "Can I ride with you," and I let him get in the car and I went to Oak Cliff and 10th Street, and drove by the scene.
In fact, there was two newspapermen, but one got out at the scene where Officer Tippit was killed.
Mr.Belin. Was Officer Tippit's car still there?
Mr.Walker. Yes; it was still there.
Mr.Belin. Do you have any recollection—did you take a look at the car or not?
Mr.Walker. I didn't really look real close.
Mr.Belin. Did you talk to any witnesses there?
Mr.Walker. No; I didn't get out.
Mr.Belin. What did you do then?
Mr.Walker. I started up cruising the area, and I went up the street that runs north and south and faces the, runs into the library at Jefferson and Marsalis, and I saw a white male running east across the lawn of the library.
I was still approximately three-fourths of the block from Jefferson, and he was even south of Jefferson.
Mr.Belin. How far would he have been from you then when you saw him?
Mr.Walker. He was over a block.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Walker. I put out a broadcast on the air that there was a person fitting the description on the air that was seen running in front of the library, and I gave the location and said I will be around at the back. I ran around to the back of the library and other squads then surrounded the library.
Mr.Belin. You were not the one that put out the first description of the suspect they sought?
Mr.Walker. I didn't. The newspaperman was still with me at that time.
Mr.Belin. What was the description, if you remember, over the radio as to what you were looking for?
Mr.Walker. A white male, slender build, and had on a light-colored coat or shirt, and that is the best I can recall.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Walker. About 30 years old, I think he said.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do? Did you go into the library?
Mr.Walker. As soon as the squads got there, I walked around with the other squads to the west entrance of the building, and we ordered everyone out of the building. They all came out with their hands up.
Mr.Belin. Was this the upstairs?
Mr.Walker. No; it is the downstairs. You had to go downstairs to get to it.
Mr.Belin. Something like a basement?
Mr.Walker. Yes. It is a semibasement, I would call it. And everyone came out, and I saw the person that had run in there, and he said that he had ran there to tell the other people about the shooting. And let's see, that he worked there, he told me he worked there and everything. I soon determined he wasn't the one.
Mr.Belin. Then what happened?
Mr.Walker. I got back in my car and started cruising the area again. I went up and down the alleys and streets. And there was one incident that really didn't have anything to do with it. I guess I was cruising up the alley with the newspaperman in the car, and I saw a man in long white sleeves, white shirt, walking across the parking lot there of the church, and I couldn't see below his legs, and there was a picket fence there, and when he got about 30 feet from me, I stopped the car, and he was walking toward me, and I had my gun in my lap at the time, and I said, "What is your name?" And he just looked at me. And at that time I didn't know whether he had a rifle or what he had, and he just looked at me, and he bent over, and I stuck my gun in the window and he raised up and had a small dog and he said, "What did you say?" And of course that newspaperman said, "My God, I thought he was going to shoot us."
I said, "I thought he was reaching down for a rifle."
Of course, he reached down and picked up a little dog.
Then we got around to Beckley and 10th Street, still cruising the area, when I heard the call come over the radio that the suspect was supposed to be at the theatre on Jefferson.
Mr.Belin. Was this the Texas Theatre?
Mr.Walker. Texas Theatre; yes.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Walker. I went in the alley up to the back door. When I arrived there, there was several officers there. There was a plainclothesman up on the ladder back there. I don't know what he was doing up there, but he was up on the ladder that goes up that door that is in the back. And there were several officers around the back of the theatre, and myself, and McDonald, and Officer Hutson went in the back door. And this man told us, or this boy told us that there was someone, said the person that he had seen was inside the theatre, and that he had changed seats several times, and he thought he was out there in the middle now.
Mr.Belin. Did he say that he had seen him? Did he tell you what he had seen him do, or not?
Mr.Walker. He said he seen him duck into the store where he worked, kind of looked back, and looked like he was running, and just run into the theatre.
Mr.Belin. Did he say why he seemed to duck in the store at all?
Mr.Walker. No; he didn't. He said he looked like he was scared.
Mr.Belin. Then do you remember this man's name that you talked to?
Mr.Walker. No; it was just for a second, and I went on past him.
Mr.Belin. All right, this was at the back of the theatre?
Mr.Walker. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Did anyone have a gun drawn when this man came?
Mr.Walker. I had my gun out. I had my gun out when I walked in the back of the theatre.
Mr.Belin. Did you have your gun as you continued walking through the back of the theatre?
Mr.Walker. I walked—McDonald and I walked across the stage, and he walked across the farthest away. It would be the south aisle. And I jumped off there where the north aisle runs east and west, and we started up. Hutson went down the steps in front of both of us, and he was slightly in front of me.
Mr.Belin. You are speaking about Officer T. A. Hutson and Officer M. N. McDonald and yourself?
Mr.Walker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. The three of you came in from the back?
Mr.Walker. Yes; and there were probably a couple more, but I just don't remember.
Mr.Belin. Those are the three you remember?
Mr.Walker. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Now as you faced the screen, were you going up the right center or the left center aisle?
Mr.Walker. As I faced the screen, I would be going up the left.
Mr.Belin. Was it the left center aisle or was it the far left aisle that you were going up?
Mr.Walker. Be the far left aisle, I believe.
Mr.Belin. Next to the wall?
Mr.Walker. No; there is no aisle exactly against the wall. There is a row of seats, and then an aisle, and the middle aisle, and then another row of seats.
Mr.Belin. So you would be in the aisle, as you faced the screen, which would be to the left of the center row of seats?
Mr.Walker. That's right.
Mr.Belin. Okay; just tell what happened.
Mr.Walker. There were two white males sitting approximately in the center of the show. The lights had come on, and I don't know at what point they come on.
Mr.Belin. About how many people was seated down on the first floor?
Mr.Walker. There were two in the middle, and then there was Oswald, who turned out to be Oswald—I didn't know at that time it was him—and two behind him, I believe. I think there was one in the aisle, in the seats to the right of the right aisle. I don't know how you describe it, south of the south aisle, what I call it.
Mr.Belin. You were coming up the north aisle?
Mr.Walker. And this other person was sitting over on the other side of the show.
Mr.Belin. Do you recall then a total of six people?
Mr.Walker. That is all I recall seeing.
Mr.Belin. The people behind the man that you later found out to be Oswald, how far were they behind?
Mr.Walker. They were about three or four or five seats behind him.
Mr.Belin. In what row were they?
Mr.Walker. I believe they were in the last row, or maybe the next to the last.
Mr.Belin. What row was Oswald in, to the best of your recollection?
Mr.Walker. The best I recall, fourth or fifth aisle from me, from the back.
Mr.Belin. Fourth or fifth row from the back?
Mr.Walker. Yes.
Mr.Belin. All right, now, you mentioned there were two people sitting together in the center?
Mr.Walker. Yes.
Mr.Belin. You came up and approached those people?
Mr.Walker. McDonald approached them fromthe——
Mr.Belin. Right?
Mr.Walker. Right center aisle, and I approached from the left center aisle.
Mr.Belin. Did you have your gun drawn?
Mr.Walker. I had it drawn, and I put it back in my holster.
Mr.Belin. Why did you do that?
Mr.Walker. I had to search him. As I got up to him, we had him stand up and we searched him with their hands up, and I had my gun in the holster. I searched the one on the left, and McDonald searched the one on the right.
Mr.Belin. Were you looking at other people?
Mr.Walker. I looked around. Of course, I didn't recognize anybody. I didn't know who they were.
Mr.Belin. Then what?
Mr.Walker. I walked back up to the aisle that I had been going down, and McDonald walked out the aisle he had been walking down, and we approached the aisle where Oswald was sitting. McDonald approached him from his aisle, and Hutson, which was in front of me on the same aisle, had started in the seat toward Oswald, in the seat that runs behind him.
Mr.Belin. You mean the row of seats that ran behind him?
Mr.Walker. And he started down that way, and I was walking toward him slightly behind him in the same row of seats that Oswald was sitting.
Mr.Belin. So you approached Oswald from Oswald's left, and McDonald approached Oswald from Oswald's right?
Mr.Walker. That's right.
Mr.Belin. Was Oswald sitting closer to McDonald, or you?
Mr.Walker. Closer to McDonald. He was sitting in the third seat from McDonald's aisle.
Mr.Belin. All right, then, what happened?
Mr.Walker. McDonald approached him, and he said, I don't know exactly, I assumed he said, "Stand up!" And Oswald stood up.
Mr.Belin. Did you hear Oswald say anything?
Mr.Walker. No.
Mr.Belin. Was Oswald facing you as he stood up?
Mr.Walker. No; he faced McDonald.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Walker. He put his hand up, not exactly as you would raise your hands to be searched, but more or less showing off his muscles, what I call it, kind of hunching his shoulders at the same time, and McDonald put his hand down to Oswald's pocket, it looked like to me, and McDonald's head was tilted slightly to the right, looking down in the right hand.
Mr.Belin. Looking in whose?
Mr.Walker. McDonald's right hand as he was searching, and he felt of his pocket, and Oswald then hit him, it appeared, with his left hand first, and then with his right hand. They was scuffling there, and Officer Hutson and I ran toward the back of Oswald and Hutson threw his arm around his neck, and I grabbed his left arm, and we threw him back over the seat.
At this time I didn't see any gun that was involved. I don't know whether we pulled Oswald away from McDonald for a split second or what, but he was thrown back against the seat, and then the next thing I saw, Oswald's hand was down on the gun in his belt there, and McDonald had came forward again and was holding his, Oswald's hand.
Mr.Belin. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see by his belt?
Mr.Walker. I saw his right hand. I had his left hand, you see.
Mr.Belin. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then?
Mr.Walker. He had ahold of the handle of it.
Mr.Belin. Handle of what?
Mr.Walker. The revolver.
Mr.Belin. Was there a revolver there?
Mr.Walker. Yes; there was.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Walker. And it stayed there for a second or two. He didn't get it out. McDonald had come forward and was holding his hand.
Ray Hawkins was behind me to my left at that time, and whether or not he came at the same time we did or not, but he was there, and there was a detective.
Oswald had ahold of my shirt and he practically pulled off my nameplate by gripping it with his hand, and I was bent over, and I was in an awkward position, and I could see several hands on the gun.
The gun finally got out of his belt, and it was about waist high and pointed out at about a 45° angle.
I turned around and I was holding Oswald trying to get his arm up behind him in a hammerlock, and I heard it click. I turned around and the gun was still pointing at approximately a 45° angle. Be pointed slightly toward the screen, what I call.
Now Hawkins was in the general direction of the gun.
Mr.Belin. When you heard a click, what kind of click was it?
Mr.Walker. A real light click, real light.
Mr.Belin. Was it a click of the seat?
Mr.Walker. Well, I assume it was a click of a revolver on the shell, andthat is when the gun was doing the most moving around. It was moving around in the general area, and they were still fighting. And some one said, "Let go of the gun," and Oswald said, "I can't."
And a detective, I don't recall who it was, there were so many people around by that time, the area was bursting with policemen, and it appeared to me that he reached over and pulled the gun away from everybody, pulled it away from everyone, best I can recall.
Mr.Belin. Okay, what happened then?
Mr.Walker. Ray Hawkins was on my left. He said, "Bring his arm around," and said, "I have the handcuffs."
He said, "Bring his arm around so I can get the cuffs on him."
I finally got his left arm around and I snapped the cuffs on it, and Hawkins went over the seat there and picked up, someone pulled his right arm around there, and Hawkins snapped the handcuffs on him, and turned him around and faced him, Oswald, north.
And Detective Bentley got on his left arm and I took his right arm, and we went out the aisle that I, which would be the left aisle, that I had came in, with Oswald, and walked him out the front.
He was hollering, "I protest this police brutality."
Mr.Belin. All right. Let me ask you this. What is the fact as to whether you had seen police officers hitting Oswald?
Mr.Walker. The only person I saw was McDonald. They were exchanging blows, and if he actually came in contact. He was to my back.
Mr.Belin. Did you see anyone other than McDonald hit Oswald?
Mr.Walker. No; I didn't.
Mr.Belin. Did you hit Oswald?
Mr.Walker. No; I didn't.
Mr.Belin. Did Hutson hit Oswald?
Mr.Walker. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr.Belin. All right, go ahead. Did Oswald say, "I am not resisting arrest"? Do you remember him saying that at all, or don't you remember?
Mr.Walker. The only thing he said later, I know, was, "I fought back there, but I know I wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun."
Mr.Belin. In any event, you brought him down the lobby of the theatre?
Mr.Walker. When we went out the front door, he started hollering, "I protest this police brutality."
People out there were hollering, "Kill the s.o.b." "Let us have him. We want him."
Mr.Belin. At that time, did anyone connect him with the assassination of the President?
Mr.Walker. Not unless the crowd had assumed that is who we were after, I don't know.
Mr.Belin. When you were after him, you were after him for what?
Mr.Walker. For the killing of Officer Tippit.
Mr.Belin. All right, go ahead.
Mr.Walker. There was a plain car, police car out in front. The right door was open, and Bentley went in first, and Oswald come and then I. We sat in the back seat with him.
Sgt. Jerry Hill in the front, and two more detectives that I don't know who they were, that rode down, too.
There were five officers and Oswald in the car. We took him down.
Mr.Belin. Any conversation take place? First of all, anything up until the time you got in the car that you think is important in any way?
Mr.Walker. Not that I recall, no.
Mr.Belin. All right, you got in the car and went down to the police station?
Mr.Walker. As we were driving down there, yes; hesaid——
Mr.Belin. Who was he?
Mr.Walker. Oswald said, "What is this all about?" He was relating this all the time. He said, "I know my rights." That is what he was saying, "I know my rights."
And we told him that the police officer, that he was under arrest because the police officer, he was suspected in the murder of a police officer.
And he said, "Police officer been killed?"
And nobody said nothing. He said, "I hear they burn for murder."
And I said, "You might find out."
And he said, "Well, they say it just takes a second to die."
And that is all I recall.
Now we talked some more going down, but that is the thing that I recall.
Mr.Belin. Do you recall any other conversation that you had with him, or not?
Mr.Walker. No; he was just denying it, and he was saying that all he did was carry a gun, and the reason he fought back in the theatre is, he knew he wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun, and he had never been to jail.
Mr.Belin. Did he say anything about why he was at the theatre?
Mr.Walker. No.
Mr.Belin. Did he say why he was carrying the gun?
Mr.Walker. No; he didn't.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember what clothes he had on?
Mr.Walker. He had on a white T-shirt under a brown shirt, and a pair of black pants.
Mr.Belin. How would you describe Oswald? About how tall?
Mr.Walker. About 5'8" about 150 pounds, or 155 pounds, something like that.
Mr.Belin. What color hair?
Mr.Walker. I would say sandy, the best I can recall.
Mr.Belin. Sandy, by that, you mean blond?
Mr.Walker. Darker than blonde. I just don't recall this for sure.
Mr.Belin. Some shade of brown?
Mr.Walker. It wasn't what you call blond. It was darker than blond, in my opinion.
Mr.Belin. Was it some shade of brown?
Mr.Walker. Yes; the best I can recall.
Mr.Belin. Anything else about him on your way to the police station?
Mr.Walker. He was real calm. He was extra calm. He wasn't a bit excited or nervous or anything. That was all the conversation I can recall going down.
Mr.Belin. After you got down there, what did you do with him?
Mr.Walker. We took him up the homicide and robbery bureau, and we went back there, and one of the detectives said put him in this room.
I put him in the room, and he said, "Let the uniform officers stay with him." And I went inside, and Oswald sat down, and he was handcuffed with his hands behind him.
I sat down there, and I had his pistol, and he had a card in there with a picture of him and the name A. J. Hidell on it.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember what kind of card it was?
Mr.Walker. Just an identification card. I don't recall what it was.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Walker. And I told him, "That is your real name, isn't it?"
Mr.Belin. He—had he earlier told you his name was Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Walker. I believe he had.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Walker. And he said, "No, that is not my real name."
And I started talking to him and I asked him, I said, "Why did you kill the officer?"
And he just looked at me. And I said, "Did you kill the officer because you were scared of being arrested for something?"
And he said, "I am not ascared of anything. Do I look like I am scared now?"
Mr.Belin. Did he look like he was scared?
Mr.Walker. No; he didn't look like he was scared. He was calm. Not a bit nervous.
Mr.Belin. Any other thing that you can remember that took place during that time that he was with you?
Mr.Walker. No; I can't recall.
Mr.Belin. Were you asked ever to make a report of any conversation you had with him?
Mr.Walker. No; they called me on the phone a couple of days after, and somesupervisor asked me, there had been a rumor got out that Oswald had said, "Well, I got me a President and a cop. I should have got me two more." Or something like that.
But that conversation was never said, because I was with him from the time that he was arrested until the time the detectives took him over.
I made a written report on the arrest about a week after it happened, and that is the only conversation I had with anyone.
Mr.Belin. In that report you didn't put any conversation that Oswald had, did you?
Mr.Walker. No; I didn't put any conversation. I just put the details of the arrest.
Mr.Belin. Were you asked just to make a report on your arrest of Oswald?
Mr.Walker. That is normal procedure, just what we call a "Dear Chief" letter.
Just describe the arrest and other officers involved, and we never did put what conversation we had.
Mr.Belin. Anything else that Oswald said in your presence, or that you said to him?
Mr.Walker. Not that I recall.
Mr.Belin. At any time prior to the time you left him, did you find out he was a suspect in the assassination?
Mr.Walker. When I got to the jail office and talk was going there that he was the suspect.
Mr.Belin. Did you ask him any questions about the assassination?
Mr.Walker. No; I didn't tie him in at that time with the actual killing of the President.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything else you can think of now that might be relevant?
Mr.Walker. No.
Mr.Belin. Now we chatted a little bit at the beginning prior to this deposition, and you said that you knew Officer Tippit, is that correct?
Mr.Walker. Yes.
Mr.Belin. How long had you known Officer Tippit?
Mr.Walker. Ever since I have been on the police department. When I first came to work, I was assigned to the Oak Cliff substation and worked there until I went to traffic investigation, and he was there all the time.
I am sure I worked with him when I first started out and was training and stuff like that. But I had worked with him prior to his death for, I know, maybe 2 or 3 years.
Mr.Belin. Now at the time of the Tippit shooting, there had been no call for Lee Harvey Oswald as an individual, although there was a call for—I mean there was an announcement of a general description of the suspect in the assassination?
Mr.Walker. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Just from your knowledge of the way Tippit operated, do you have any reason to think whether that general call might have affected his perhaps stopping this man on the street at the time of the shooting?
Mr.Walker. I believe the type of officer Tippit was, that he was suspicious of him as a suspect.
Mr.Belin. Why do you believe that?
Mr.Walker. Well, Officer Tippit was an exceptional officer. He made good arrests. It was known around the station that he was exceptionally good with investigative work and just general police work. He was above normal.
Mr.Belin. Why do you think he stopped this man?
Mr.Walker. I believe that the description given on the radio, that he probably stopped just to check him out as a general procedure, as we do.
Mr.Belin. Well, if he stopped him for that reason, this man, he would have stopped him because the man was a suspect for perhaps the assassination, why wouldn't he have had his gun out when he stopped him?
Mr.Walker. Well, there are a lot of people of that description, and it is just not police practice to pull your gun on a person because he fits the description of someone, unless you are positive almost that it is the suspect. You just don't do it.
Mr.Belin. Let me ask you, did you have anything to do on November 22, or anything more to do on November 22, with either the Tippit shooting or investigation or apprehension of Oswald or the assassination of the President's investigation?
Mr.Walker. No. I stayed down in Captain Westbrook's office for a while until I got off.
Mr.Belin. How about November 23, did you have anything to do that day?
Mr.Walker. That would have been Saturday.
Mr.Belin. Or did you work on Saturday?
Mr.Walker. Yes, I worked on Saturday. I didn't follow up on any investigation of any kind.
Mr.Belin. Were you going back to accident investigation?
Mr.Walker. Yes, I went back to the accident investigation.
Mr.Belin. You didn't have anything to do with anything connected with the assassination after November 22?
Mr.Walker. No.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything that we haven't covered here that you can think of at this time, Officer Walker?
Mr.Walker. Not that I can think of. It's been a long time, and I just don't recall. I think there was more conversation with Oswald, but I can't recall all of it. I just remember what I considered the high points of it.
Mr.Belin. Did he ever ask for a lawyer in your presence?
Mr.Walker. I don't recall. I think he said—I know he was repeating, "I know my rights." I don't recall him actually asking for a lawyer.
Mr.Belin. Did he say where he got the gun?
Mr.Walker. No, he didn't say where he got the gun.
Mr.Belin. Did he admit that it was his gun?
Mr.Walker. Never did ask him actually whether it was his gun. He said he knew he was carrying a gun and he wasn't supposed to, so I assumed it was his gun.
Mr.Belin. Well, we certainly appreciate your taking the time to come down here to testify before us, and we want to thank you very much for your cooperation.
Mr.Walker. Okay. I know you've got a problem here.
Mr.Belin. Have I asked you whether or not you care to read the deposition? I don't believe I have. You have an opportunity here to either read the deposition and then sign it, or else waive the signing of it and have the court reporter, Helen Laidrich, send it directly to us in Washington?
Mr.Walker. I will go ahead and sign it.
Mr.Belin. All right, Miss Laidrich will get in touch with you at the Dallas Police Department, I assume.
Mr.Walker. Yes. Do you want me to sign it now?
Mr.Belin. I am talking about when she gets it typed up. Do you want to read it or have her send it to us directly?
Mr.Walker. Do I have to come, down here to read it here?
Mr.Belin. Yes, you have to come down and read it here.
Mr.Walker. I will come down and read it and sign it.
Mr.Belin. All right, fine. Thank you, sir.
The testimony of Gerald Lynn Hill was taken at 4:15 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Belin. Sergeant, would you stand and raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Hill. I do.
Mr.Belin. All right. Sergeant, could you please state your name.
Mr.Hill. Gerald Lynn Hill.
Mr.Belin. What is your occupation?
Mr.Hill. Sergeant in the Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Belin. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Hill. Since March 7, 1955.
Mr.Belin. How old are you, Sergeant Hill?
Mr.Hill. Thirty-four.
Mr.Belin. Where were you born?
Mr.Hill. Ferris, Tex.
Mr.Belin. Did you go to school there?
Mr.Hill. No, sir; I went to school in Dallas.
Mr.Belin. How far did you get through school?
Mr.Hill. Went through high school.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do when you got out of high school?
Mr.Hill. Went to work for the Dallas Times Herald. Worked there from January of 1948 until April of 1954.
At the time I resigned there, I was radio-television editor for the paper.
Went from there to the Dallas Bureau of WBAP-TV in Fort Worth, and worked for them until March the 21st, 1958.
The last 2 weeks I was working for them, I was attending the police academy for the police department.
Mr.Belin. Then you went in the police department?
Mr.Hill. I went with the police prior to quitting. I turned in my notice with WBAP and they let me work it out while I attended the police school, because I was actually hired on a Saturday, and the police school started on Monday, and I wanted to leave on good terms with one place and start to school on time with the other, so they worked out an agreement with me.
Mr.Belin. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?
Mr.Hill. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr.Belin. Where were you on duty?
Mr.Hill. I was on special assignment, detached from the police patrol division, and assigned to the police personnel office investigating applicants for the police department.
Mr.Belin. Where was this?
Mr.Hill. On that particular day, I was at the city hall in the personnel office, and did not have an assignment of any kind pertaining to the President's trip or any other function other than the investigation of police applicants.
Mr.Belin. When did you leave the city hall?
Mr.Hill. The President had passed the corner of Commerce or—excuse me, Main and Harwood, turned off Harwood onto Main, and proceeded west on Main.
I had watched it from the personnel office window, which is on the third floor of the police and courts building, and Capt. W. R. Westbrook, who was my commander, had apparently been on the streets watching the parade, and he came back in and we were discussing some facts about how fast it passed and the police unit in it, and we had seen the chief's car in it, and how Mrs. Kennedy was dressed, and we were sitting in the office when a lady by the name of Kemmey, I believe is the way she spelled it, came in and said that the President had been shot at Main and Lamar.
Our first reaction was one of disbelief, but a minute later—she just made the statement and walked out—and a minute later Captain Westbrook said, "She wasn't kidding."
And I said, "When she you mean?"
And he said, "When she is kidding, she can't keep a straight face."
And figuring it was true, the dispatcher's office would be packed to the gills, so I walked down to the far end of the hall on the third floor where there is an intercom box connected to the radio from the dispatcher's office, and also you can hear the field side of the intercom of anything that is said to the police radio, and this is down in the press room.
I stood there for a minute and I heard a voice which I am almost sure wasInspector Sawyer—but being I didn't see a broadcast, I couldn't say for sure—saying we think we have located the building where the shots were fired from at Elm and Houston Streets, and send us some help.
At this time I went back to the personnel office and told the captain that Inspector Sawyer requested assistance at Elm and Houston Streets. The captain said, "Go ahead and go."
And he turned to another man in the office named Joe Fields and told him to get on down there.
I got on the elevator on the third floor and went to the basement and saw a uniformed officer named Jim M. Valentine, and I asked Jim what he was doing, and he said, "Nothing in particular."
And I said, "I need you to take me down to Elm Street."
"The President has been shot."
We started out of the basement to get in his car, and a boy named Jim E. Well, with the Dallas Morning News, had parked his car in the basement and was walking up and asked what was going on, and we told him the President was shot.
And he said, "Where are you going?"
And we said, "Down to Elm and Houston where they think the shots came from."
And he said, "Could I go with you?"
So we took him in the back seat of the car. And I don't remember what the number was.
We came out of the basement on Commerce, went to Central, turned left, went over on Elm, ran into a traffic jam on Elm, went down as far as Pearl Street and turned back to the left on Pearl and went to Jackson Street, went west on Jackson to Houston Street, and turned back to the right and pulled up in front of the Book Depository at Elm and Houston, jumped out of the car and Inspector Sawyer was there.
I asked him did he have enough men outside to cover the building properly, and he said, "Yes; I believe so."
And I said, "Are you ready for us to go in and shake it down?"
And he said, "Yes, let's go in and check it out."
About this time Captain Fritz and two or three more detectives from homicide, a boy named Roy Westphal, who works for the special service bureau, and a couple of uniformed officers, and a couple of deputy sheriffs came up.
Now you identified them to me the other day, the two boys that were on the sixth floor from the sheriff's office.
Mr.Belin. I think when we chatted briefly the other day, I believe I said Boone and Mooney. Does that sound familiar?
Mr.Hill. I wouldn't know, but I know they identified themselves to us as deputy sheriffs, and some more people knew them.
So we went into the building, and Captain Fritz and his men said they would start at the first floor and work up, and they asked several of us to go to the top floor and work down.
We went up to the seventh floor on the elevator and I believe the elevator ran to the sixth, and we cut around the stairway and got to seven and shook it down.
At this time there were the two deputy sheriffs and I and one uniformed officer up there.
Mr.Belin. You went to the top floor of the building?
Mr.Hill. Right.
Mr.Belin. Do you know whether or not the elevator went all the way up, or did you climb?
Mr.Hill. I think we climbed a flight of stairs. In fact, I am almost sure.
Mr.Belin. Do you think you climbed a flight of stairs because the elevator went no further?
Mr.Hill. I think it either went to fifth or sixth, but I am almost positive it didn't go to seventh. I may be wrong, but I didn't particularly take notice.
But I think they told us we were going to have to walk up a couple of flights because the elevator didn't go all the way.
Mr.Belin. Where did you take this elevator?
Mr.Hill. Walked in the front door of the Book Depository and turned to the right. Took the passenger elevator. We did not take the freight elevator. The freight elevator goes all the way, I believe.
Mr.Belin. You took a passenger elevator?
Mr.Hill. Yes.
Mr.Belin. When you got off the passenger elevator, what did you do?
Mr.Hill. We asked them where the stairway was to the top floor, and if this was on the fifth, we walked through—there is a little office section near the elevator. We walked over past it and through a large room to the stairway, and then went all the way as high as the stairway would take us, which would have been on seven.
In the middle of the floor on the seventh floor there was a ladder leading up into an area they called the penthouse, which was used mainly for storage.
Westphal went up this ladder, I know, and the uniformed officer went up it.
The rest of us were checking around the boxes and books.
So on file we verified that there was not anyone on the seventh floor, and we didn't find any indication that the shots had been fired from there.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Hill. Left the uniformed officer there, and these two deputies and I went down to sixth.
I started to the right side of the building.
Mr.Belin. When you say the right side, youmean——
Mr.Hill. Well, it would have been the west side.
Mr.Belin. All right, they moved over to the east side?
Mr.Hill. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here it is," or words to that effect.
I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the window.
Two small boxes with Roller books on the side of the carton were stacked near the east side of the window.
Mr.Belin. Let's talk about which window now, sir. First of all, what side of the building? Was it on the north, east, south, or west?
Mr.Hill. It would have been on the south side near the east wall. It would have been the window on the southeast corner of the building facing south.
Mr.Belin. Would it have been the first window next to the east wall or the second window, or what, if you remember?
Mr.Hill. As near as I can remember, it was the first window next to the east wall, but here again it is—I stayed up there such a short time that—yes, that is the one I am going to have to say it was, because as near as I can remember, that is the one it was.
Mr.Belin. What did you see over there?
Mr.Hill. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield.
That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.
On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment, there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches thick.
Then, on the floor near the baseboard or against the baseboard of the south wall of the building, in front of the second window, in front of the, well, we would have to say second window from the east corner, were three spent shells.
This is actually the jacket that holds the powder and not the slug. At this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene, not to let anybody touch anything, and I went over still further west to another window about the middle of the building on the south side and yelled down to the street for them to send us the crime lab. Not knowing or not getting any indication from the streetthat they heard me, I asked the deputies again to guard the scene and I would go down and make sure that the crime lab was en route.
When I got toward the back, at this time I heard the freight elevator moving, and I went back to the back of the building to either catch the freight elevator or the stairs, and Captain Fritz and his men were coming up on the elevator.
I told him what we found and pointed out the general area, pointed out the deputies to them, and told him also that I was going to make sure the crime lab was en route.
About the time I got to the street, Lieutenant Day from the crime lab was arriving and walking up toward the front door. I told him that the area we had found where the shots were fired from was on the sixth floor on the southeast corner, and that they were guarding the scene so nobody would touch anything until he got there. And he said, "All right."
And he went on into the building, and I went over to tell Inspector Sawyer, who was standing almost directly in front of the building across the little service drive there at what would actually be Elm and Houston. About this time I saw a firetruck come up, but I didn't pay any attention.
I was talking to Inspector Sawyer, telling him what we found, when Sgt. C. B. Owens of Oak Cliff—he was the senior sergeant out there that day, and actually acting lieutenant—came up and wanted to know what we wanted him to do, being that he had been dispatched to the scene.
Mr.Belin. Let me stop you right there. Who dispatched him to the scene?
Mr.Hill. Apparently the dispatcher. Now his call number that day could have been 19.
Mr.Belin. Okay, go ahead, Sergeant Hill.
Mr.Hill. We were standing there with Inspector Sawyer and Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander came up to us, and we had been standing there for a minute when we heard the strange voice on the police radio that said something to the effect that, if I remember right, either the first call that came out said that they were in the 400 block of East Jefferson, and that an officer had been shot, and the voice on the radio, whoever it was, said he thought he was dead.
At this point Sergeant Owens said something to the effect that this would have been one of his men. And prior, on our way to the location from the city hall, a description had been broadcast of a possible suspect in the assassination.
With the description, as I remember, it was a white male, 5'8", 160 pounds, wearing a jacket, a light shirt, dark trousers, and sort of bushy brown hair. Captain Sawyer said, "Well, as much help as we have here, why don't you go with Sergeant Owens to Oak Cliff on that detail." And Bill Alexander said, "Well, if it is all right, I will go with you." And the reporter, Jim Ewell, came up, and I said an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff, and he wanted to go with us also.