Mr.Ball. The alley of what?
Mr.Westbrook. Between Jefferson and whatever the next street is over there.
Mr.Ball. Tenth Street is the street north.
Mr.Westbrook. What street?
Mr.Ball. You see, the street directly north of Jefferson is 10th Street.
Mr.Westbrook. It would be between Jefferson and 10th Street?
Mr.Ball. And where with reference to Patton?
Mr.Westbrook. Well, it would be toward town or it would be north of Patton—I guess it would be east of Patton.
Mr.Ball. It would be west of Patton, wouldn't it? Or would it be toward Patton?
Mr.Westbrook. Toward town—if I could see a map?
Mr.Ball. Well, here is a map [handed instrument to the witness].
Mr.Westbrook. I used to be very familiar with that.
Mr.Ball. There is a map and you can look at it and tell us.
Mr.Westbrook. [Examining instrument.] Now, I've got it located—here is the Texas Theatre and I'm on Jefferson now. It would be Cumberland, Storey, and Crawford—I would say it would be between Crawford and Storey.
Mr.Ball. Between Crawford and Storey on Jefferson?
Mr.Westbrook. On Jefferson, between 10th and Jefferson there.
Mr.Ball. That would be west of Patton.
Mr.Westbrook. That would be west of Patton—yes, sir; toward the theatre.
Mr.Ball. Now, you came from the library—where is that library?
Mr.Westbrook. The library is at Marsalis and Jefferson, sir. It must be here on Turner Plaza right here.
Mr.Ball. You drove west on Jefferson, did you?
Mr.Westbrook. We drove west on Jefferson.
Mr.Ball. And you got out of the car where?
Mr.Westbrook. We got out of the car about here [indicating].
Mr.Ball. At what street?
Mr.Westbrook. It was between two streets, and I would say it was between this Storey and Crawford.
Mr.Ball. Why did you get out of the car at that time?
Mr.Westbrook. Just more or less searching—just no particular reason—just searching the area.
Mr.Ball. You were just looking around to see what you could see?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes; and at this time I had a shotgun—I had borrowed a shotgun from a patrolman.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go when you got out of the car?
Mr.Westbrook. I walked through, and this is a car lot or a parking area, right along in here, and I don't know whether I am wrong on my location or not, but I think I'm right.
Mr.Ball. You walked through a car lot, did you?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes, sir; and I think I came out—is that a church—there's a church right there close by.
Mr.Ball. Was there a station anywhere near there, a service station?
Mr.Westbrook. Oh, there could have been—yes, sir. There was either a used-car lot or a parking lot—that I don't know.
Mr.Ball. Well, I show you some pictures here.
Mr.Westbrook. I would recognize it in the picture.
Mr.Ball. This is a picture of a Texaco station at the intersection of Crawford and Jefferson.
Mr.Westbrook. At Crawford and Jefferson?
Mr.Ball. There is a parking area behind that.
Mr.Westbrook. This looks more like it.
Mr.Ball. The Texaco station?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes—the Texaco station; and I think where this jacket was found was right along in here [indicating].
Mr.Ball. Now, the picture you are looking at is identified as a parking lot, and on a parking area behind the Texaco service station at the corner of Crawford and Jefferson?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You walked through there, did you?
Mr.Westbrook. I walked through from Jefferson.
Mr.Ball. From Jefferson?
Mr.Westbrook. There is an old house—the only thing—I come down by this station there—there is an old house there and some of the officers were looking it over. They had seen somebody go in it and there was quite a few officers there so I didn't pay any further attention to it. So, I walked on, and possibly—this may be it—it appears to be it right here in the corner.
Mr.Ball. Put an arrow showing the old house.
Mr.Westbrook. I think this is it right here—I can't be positive, but I think that's it.
Mr.Ball. Make an arrow with a pen.
Mr.Westbrook. The arrow marks the point of an old house.
Mr.Ball. That you walked toward, is that right?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And you have marked that old house?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Now, what did you do and what did you see?
Mr.Westbrook. Well, there were several officers—there were some at the back and there were some in the front, and so I just hesitated a moment and then I walked on.
Mr.Ball. You walked where?
Mr.Westbrook. I think I come up this way.
Mr.Ball. By "this way" you mean towards the parking lot?
Mr.Westbrook. Towards the parking lot—yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Behind the Texaco service station?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes; behind the Texaco service station, and some officer, I feel sure it was an officer, I still can't be positive—pointed this jacket out to me and it was laying slightly under the rear of one of the cars.
Mr.Ball. What kind of a car was it?
Mr.Westbrook. That, I couldn't tell you. I told the officer to take the make and the license number.
Mr.Ball. Did you take the number yourself?
Mr.Westbrook. No.
Mr.Ball. What was the name of the officer?
Mr.Westbrook. I couldn't tell you that, sir.
Mr.Ball. I offer this as Exhibit B, which is identified as "37. Parking area behind Texaco station," and on which the witness has marked "old house."
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook Exhibit No. B," for identification.)
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook Exhibit No. C," for identification.)
Mr.Ball. I show you another picture which is identified as "38. Place where jacket found behind Oldsmobile, License No. NL 95."
Does that look anything like the area where you saw the jacket?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Westbrook. I would say that the jacket probably, if this is the area, was probably right along in here.
Mr.Ball. Put a circle there in the general area.
(Witness complied with request of Counsel Ball.)
Mr.Ball. The jacket was underneath a car?
Mr.Westbrook. But, I am guessing on this—slightly underneath a car.
Mr.Ball. What do you mean you are guessing on this—what are you guessing about?
Mr.Westbrook. About where the jacket was found in this picture.
Mr.Ball. You mean it wasunder——
Mr.Westbrook. It was under a car, but I don't know whether it was under the one I put it under or not.
Mr.Ball. It might have been under one or the other of the cars, you couldn't swear which?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes, it could have been under any of the other cars, but I think it was kind of along in the middle of the parking lot.
Mr.Ball. I offer this as Exhibit B of Captain Westbrook's deposition.
Now, you don't know the name of the officer?
Mr.Westbrook. No; I probably knew his name, but we see so many things that were happening so fast.
Mr.Ball. Do you recognize anything in that picture?
Mr.Westbrook. (Examining instrument referred to.) No; I don't.
Mr.Ball. This is No. 39, which I identify for the record.
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook Exhibit No. D," "39. View of alley behind Texaco station parking lot.")
Mr.Westbrook. I still think this is the house here—I think this is the old house and this is the parking lot and I would say the jacket was found behind this row of cars. It seemed to me like there was some—more room from where the cars were from what is shown there—back this way.
Mr.Ball. Point out the old house.
Mr.Westbrook. This one.
Mr.Ball. Mark it.
(Witness marked instrument referred to as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr.Ball. Point out the row of cars where the jacket was found.
Mr.Westbrook. Well, that, I don't believe I coulddo——
Mr.Ball. Was it near the alley?
Mr.Westbrook. It was near—but not this close—it don't seem to me.
Mr.Ball. Not as close as shown in the picture?
Mr.Westbrook. It don't seem to me—I can't remember for sure.
Mr.Ball. I offer this exhibit, Westbrook No. D.
Mr.Westbrook. Now, I did, when I left this scene, I turned this jacket over to one of the officers and I went by that church, I think, and I think that would be on 10th Street.
Mr.Ball. I show you Commission Exhibit 162, do you recognize that?
Mr.Westbrook. That is exactly the jacket we found.
Mr.Ball. That is the jacket you found?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you turned it over to whom?
Mr.Westbrook. Now, it was to this officer—that got the name.
Mr.Ball. Does your report show the name of the officer?
Mr.Westbrook. No, sir; it doesn't. When things like this happen—it was happening so fast you don't remember those things.
Mr.Ball. Then, it was after that you went over to 10th and Patton?
Mr.Westbrook. To 10th and Patton—yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And from there you went to the theatre?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes; from there we went to the theatre, and I can't remember exactly how that I got back with Bob Barrett and Stringer, but anyway, we got together again—probably at 10th and Patton.
Mr.Ball. Were you in the personnel office at a time that a gun was brought in?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes, sir; it was brought to my office when it shouldn't have been.
Mr.Ball. But it was brought to your office?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes; it was.
Mr.Ball. And it was marked by some officer?
Mr.Westbrook. It was marked by Officer Jerry Hill and a couple or three more, and when they come in with the gun, I just went on down and told Captain Fritz that the gun was in my office and he sent a man up after it. I didn't take it down.
Mr.Ball. Did you see McDonald mark it?
Mr.Westbrook. He possibly could have—he was in there.
Mr.Ball. Did you see the gun unloaded?
Mr.Westbrook. No, sir; I didn't see it unloaded. When I saw it, the gun was laying on Mr. McGee's desk and the shells were out of it.
Mr.Ball. Did you look at any of the shells?
Mr.Westbrook. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you look the gun over?
Mr.Westbrook. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you have any questions?
Mr.Ely. Yes; I have one. Captain, you mentioned that you had left orders for somebody to take the names of everybody in the theatre, and you also stated you did not have this list; do you know who has it?
Mr.Westbrook. No; possibly Lieutenant Cunningham will know, but I don't know who has the list.
Mr.Ely. That's all.
Mr.Westbrook. And I'm sorry that I'm so vague on names, but it's just—the only reason that I knew Sergeant Stringer, I think, that day he worked with me.
Mr.Ball. Do you have any questions?
Mr.Stern. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. I think that's all. Thank you very much, captain.
Mr.Westbrook. Thank you, sir, Mr. Ball, it has been a pleasure.
The testimony of Elmer L. Boyd was taken at 11 a.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U. S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John Hart Ely and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.
Mr.Ball. Mr. Boyd, do you swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Boyd. I do.
Mr.Ball. Will you state your name, please?
Mr.Boyd. Elmer L. Boyd.
Mr.Ball. And what is your occupation?
Mr.Boyd. I am a detective in the homicide and robbery bureau for the Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Ball. You received a letter asking you to appear here today, didn't you?
Mr.Boyd. I think they received one over at the office and they notified me.
Mr.Ball. And you have been told the purpose of this investigation is to inquire into the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. I'm going to ask you what you learned during the course of your investigation.
Mr.Boyd. All right.
Mr.Ball. Now, can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you went to school and what you have done most of your life?
Mr.Boyd. Well, yes, sir. I can tell you I was born in Navarro County—the particular place was Blooming Grove, Tex., and it's about 15 miles west of Corsicana, and I was raised up about 7 miles north of there. I attended school, well, I started at a little country school—it was Pecan, was the name of the school. I went there 2 years and then they sent me to Blooming Grove and I started to school in my second grade. The reason I was in the second grade—I had to go through a primer before I got in the first grade—I didn't fail—I just had to go through this primer before I got in the first grade, and I graduated from high school at Blooming Grove in 1946 and I went into the Navy and served for 2 years, I believe I served about 22 months in the Navy—I joined and I went through boot training at San Diego, went from there to Newport, R. I., and caught my first ship, the USS Kenneth D. Bailey. I don't recall just how many months I spent on that—somewhere around 15 or 16 months, I've forgotten, and then they sent me to—I transferred from that ship and went on the USS Cone, that's another destroyer [spelling] C-o-n-e, and along about the first part of January, I believe, in 1948, they transferred me to Pensacola where I caught my third destroyer, the USS Forrest Royal, and we operated in and out of there until I got out of the Navy, and I believe it was about the first day of April 1948, when I was discharged, and I came to Dallas and I have been here in Dallas ever since.
I went to work on the police department May 19, 1952. Prior to that I worked, I believe, about 3 years for the gas company and I started out reading gas meters, and then I went into collecting, and I was a collector for the gas company when I came on the police department. I think I worked a couple of more places before then—one for a printing company down here on Cockrell, down here by Sears & Roebuck for a while, but I didn't stay there long.
Mr.Ball. How long have you been in homicide?
Mr.Boyd. I came in there on October 15, I believe, in 1957.
Mr.Ball. November 22, 1963, what were your hours of duty?
Mr.Boyd. Well, my hours of duty on November 22, 1963, I believe, was 4 to midnight.
Mr.Ball. So, on that day you went to work earlier?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Ball. What time?
Mr.Boyd. I came to work at 9 o'clock. Is it all right for me to go by this?
Mr.Ball. I see you have there a report that is entitled "Report on Officer's Duty in Regard to the President's Murder, R. M. Sims, No. 629, and E. L. Boyd, No. 840."
Mr.Boyd. Yes; we are partners.
Mr.Ball. Did you prepare that report yourself?
Mr.Boyd. He and I together prepared it.
Mr.Ball. When did you prepare it?
Mr.Boyd. Let me see—the last part of November—I'm not sure of the date.
Mr.Ball. Was it within a week after the events took place that are recorded there?
Mr.Boyd. I would say so; yes.
Mr.Ball. You dictated it to a secretary?
Mr.Boyd. Well, I wrote it out in longhand and carried it to the secretary and she typed it up.
Mr.Ball. It was written out in your longhand?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you have those longhand notes?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir; I do not.
Mr.Ball. This report has already been attached to Officer Sims' deposition as Exhibit A, so we have read it.
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. During the course of your work, did you make notes of what you were doing in a notebook?
Mr.Boyd. Well, I made notes, and I believe I had a notebook.
Mr.Ball. Did you make it a habit of carrying a notebook with you?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. When you work?
Mr.Boyd. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And you just jot things down as they occur?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you have that notebook with you?
Mr.Boyd. No; I do not.
Mr.Ball. Do you know where it is?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir; right offhand, I don't know where it is. Part of the time, you know, I just took a sheet of paper and put down the particular times, you know, and after I fixed this—I don't recall what I did with it. I may have torn it up.
Mr.Ball. You didn't have a regular notebook that you kept with you at all times?
Mr.Boyd. I had a regular notebook, but I didn't put everything in it, I'm sure.
Mr.Ball. This notebook that you had on November 22, 1963, have anything in it with respect to what you did on the 22d and the 23d of November?
Mr.Boyd. Of 1963—I don't recall if I have these showups in there or not—it seems like I did.
Mr.Ball. Do you have it with you?
Mr.Boyd. No; I do not.
Mr.Ball. Can you get it for me?
Mr.Boyd. I probably could if I have it.
Mr.Ball. Will you look it up?
Mr.Boyd. I will look for it.
Mr.Ball. I'll be down to the police department tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock and will you look it up between now and then and then let me see it if you still have it?
Mr.Boyd. All right.
Mr.Ball. I'll be up there in your department—near Captain Fritz' office.
Mr.Boyd. What time—at 10 o'clock?
Mr.Ball. At 10 o'clock in the morning.
Mr.Boyd. I'll be there—I come on at 10.
Mr.Ball. You come on at 10?
Mr.Boyd. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Then, I'll see you in the morning.
Mr.Boyd. All right.
Mr.Ball. On this morning of November 22, you had been ordered to work early; why was that?
Mr.Boyd. Well, President Kennedy was coming into Dallas and I was assigned to work with Captain Fritz and Detective Sims out at the Trade Mart.
Mr.Ball. Where did you hear that the President had been shot?
Mr.Boyd. Yes; I heard that.
Mr.Ball. You heard that over the radio, didn't you?
Mr.Boyd. Well, I believe it was around 12:40 when Chief Stevenson called and he talked to Captain Fritz out at the Trade Mart and he told him that—Captain Fritz told me that Chief Stevenson told him that the President had been involved in an accident down at the triple underpass and was on his way to Parkland.
Mr.Ball. Did you go over there?
Mr.Boyd. When we got out of the car, we checked, I believe, with—Mr. Sims called in on the radio and they told us he had been shot and we went to Parkland Hospital and pulled up to the emergency and saw there were a lot of people out there, but we saw Chief Curry out in front of the emergency there and he advised us to go back down to the scene of where we thought the shooting had occurred, down at the Texas Book Depository, and Mr. Sims and Captain Fritz and Sheriff Decker was also out there, and he rode back down with us.
Mr.Ball. And you went to the School Depository Building, did you?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you were told by Chief Curry to go to the School Depository Building at that time?
Mr.Boyd. Yes; down at the scene and that's where we had heard that they thought that the shot came from—from the Texas Book Store.
Mr.Ball. Where were you when you first heard that?
Mr.Boyd. We were at the Trade Mart when we heard that—pulling out—we were on our way to Parkland Hospital from the Trade Mart, pulling out in the car.
Mr.Ball. Now, when you arrived down here at the building, what did you do?
Mr.Boyd. Well, we went outside the building and we made two or three stops going up, you know, at different floors, and when we got up to the top floor—I believe it was the top one—I think it's the seventh floor, and someone called us and said they had found some hulls, rifle hulls, down on the sixth floor, I believe it was the sixth floor.
Mr.Ball. And you were with whom at that time?
Mr.Boyd. I was with Captain Fritz and Detective Sims.
Mr.Ball. Did you go down to the sixth floor?
Mr.Boyd. We stopped at the sixth floor—you say, did we go down to the sixth floor?
Mr.Ball. When you heard that they found some hulls, just tell us what you did.
Mr.Boyd. We went down to the sixth floor and found the hulls over on the southeast corner of the building and they had some books, I suppose it was books—boxes of books stacked up back over there that way.
Mr.Ball. Did you see the hulls on the floor?
Mr.Boyd. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you see anything else around there where the hulls were on the floor?
Mr.Boyd. Well, over to the west there was some paper sacks, and I think some chicken bones up on top of some boxes.
Mr.Ball. That was west?
Mr.Boyd. Right; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Near the windows?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir; they were near the windows.
Mr.Ball. How far west from where the hulls were located?
Mr.Boyd. Oh, I would say roughly between 30 and 40 feet, probably.
Mr.Ball. Where, with reference to the rows of windows—there are pairs of windows—how many pairs of windows away from where the hulls were located did you see the paper sack and chicken bones?
Mr.Boyd. Let me see—I don't recall just how many rows of windows fromthere it was. They are in rows of two, now, I'm not sure, I think it was in front of the third or fourth window over from the southeast corner.
Mr.Ball. Third or fourth?
Mr.Boyd. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Pair of windows?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir; now—pair of windows—let's see.
Mr.Ball. The windows are in pairs on that side, on the Elm Street side—now, what sort of sack was it?
Mr.Boyd. The best I remember it was just a brown paper sack—it looked like a lunch sack.
Mr.Ball. About the size of a lunch sack?
Mr.Boyd. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any other paper sack around there?
Mr.Boyd. I don't recall any if I did.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any brown wrapping paper near the window where the hulls were found, near the windows alongside which the hulls were found?
Mr.Boyd. I don't believe I did.
Mr.Ball. What else did you see?
Mr.Boyd. I just saw those stacks of books up there, and after we had been up there a while, I saw a rifle back over toward the southwest corner over there.
Mr.Ball. Where was that located?
Mr.Boyd. It was down between some boxes.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you see any pictures taken of the hulls, photographs taken of the hulls?
Mr.Boyd. Well, let's see, Detective Studebaker and Lieutenant Day, I believe, came up there and they were taking pictures over there at the scene of the hulls.
Mr.Ball. And what about where the rifle was found, did you see pictures taken there?
Mr.Boyd. Yes; I saw pictures taken over there.
Mr.Ball. By whom?
Mr.Boyd. Lieutenant Day.
Mr.Ball. Did you see anything else on the sixth floor there?
Mr.Boyd. I saw a lot of officers.
Mr.Ball. Did you find anything yourself?
Mr.Boyd. Not on the sixth floor—I don't believe so.
Mr.Ball. What time did you leave there?
Mr.Boyd. Well, I think I've got it down here somewhere—near 2 o'clock—I believe, but let me check to make sure. It would have been between 1:30 and 2 o'clock.
Mr.Ball. Where were you when you heard the rifle had been found?
Mr.Boyd. I was over near the scene of where the shells had been found.
Mr.Ball. Did you see Captain Fritz handle the rifle after it had been found?
Mr.Boyd. I don't believe so.
Mr.Ball. Did you see him eject anything from it?
Mr.Boyd. Let me see, now, I believe they did get a shell out of it after Lieutenant Day came over there.
Mr.Ball. Did you see it, or are you just telling us what you heard?
Mr.Boyd. Well, I don't believe I saw him get it out.
Mr.Ball. You heard about it?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You left there and went up to the police department, didn't you?
Mr.Boyd. Well, when we left there, we started to go to Irving, but someone—when we got downstairs—someone told Captain Fritz that Sheriff Decker wanted to see him over in his office.
Mr.Ball. You say you started to go where?
Mr.Boyd. Irving, Tex.
Mr.Ball. Where did you get the address in Irving, Tex., or the place to go to in Irving, Tex.?
Mr.Boyd. Captain Fritz got it from some man there on the sixth floor. He came up and talked to him a minute and then he told Mr. Sims and I that we should check this Lee Harvey Oswald out, and that was the address they gave us—it was in Irving, Tex.
Mr.Ball. And what did you do then?
Mr.Boyd. We started to go over there and when we got downstairs, like I said, someone told Captain Fritz that Sheriff Decker wanted to see him a minute before he left, and we went in there and while we were in there we learned that the man that had shot Officer Tippit, we thought was the man, was on his way up to our office and Captain Fritz wanted to go by there and we carried him there.
Mr.Ball. You were in Decker's office when you heard that a man had been arrested for the murder of Tippit?
Mr.Boyd. Yes; we heard about Tippit getting shot when we were up on the sixth floor.
Mr.Ball. Then, Fritz told you to go to Irving, didn't he?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir; we started to Irving.
Mr.Ball. Where were you when you heard the man had been arrested, the suspect for the murder of Tippit?
Mr.Boyd. Well, I think we was still in the Texas Book Depository when we heard about him being arrested over there.
Mr.Ball. Did you go to Decker's office with Fritz?
Mr.Boyd. Yes sir.
Mr.Ball. And then you went with Fritz up to your office?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And did Fritz send somebody else out to Irving, or do you remember?
Mr.Boyd. I think later on, I believe, he sent someone else out there.
Mr.Ball. He told you to stay there at the police department, did he?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you do when you got there?
Mr.Boyd. Well, we went in and there was a good many people there—I don't recall who all was there—I know we talked to Lieutenant Baker, and he told us that the man that shot Tippit was in the interrogation room and about 5 minutes or so after we were in the office, we took Lee Harvey Oswald out of there and brought him into Captain Fritz' office and he talked to him in there.
Mr.Ball. Tell us about what time of day that was?
Mr.Boyd. I believe it was around 2:20 when we took him out in there; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And who was there in the room with Oswald at that time?
Mr.Boyd. With Oswald at that time—?
Mr.Ball. You took Oswald into Fritz' office about 2:20?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Who was there besides Oswald?
Mr.Boyd. Well, Captain Fritz, and let me see, there was some FBI agents.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember their names?
Mr.Boyd. I know one came in just shortly thereafter and I remember Mr. Bookhout and Mr. Hosty came in right after we got in there.
Mr.Ball. And who else was there?
Mr.Boyd. Mr. Hall and Mr. Sims; M. G. Hall is our other partner.
Mr.Ball. He's your other partner?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And Sims was there, and was there a Secret Service man in there?
Mr.Boyd. Let me see—I think there was a Secret Service man there, but I don't recall—I don't know what his name was.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember what was said?
Mr.Boyd. Well, I don't remember exactly what was said.
Mr.Ball. Well, in general, what was the substance of what was said?
Mr.Boyd.Well——
Mr.Ball. Give me the substance.
Mr.Boyd. Well, I knew Captain Fritz asked him his name.
Mr.Ball. What did he say?
Mr.Boyd. I think he told us his name. I think when he asked him—I'm sure he told him his name because he would talk for a while and then he would quit.
Mr.Ball. Did he ask him where he lived?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir; I think he asked him where he lived.
Mr.Ball. What did he say?
Mr.Boyd. He said he lived over on Beckley.
Mr.Ball. Did he give the address?
Mr.Boyd. I believe that he said, well, I know he gave an address—I know he gave an address but he didn't say if it was north or south—I remember that—he didn't say if it was North Beckley or South Beckley and I remember another thing—Mr. Hosty came in and identified him himself, you know, as he came in.
Mr.Ball. What do you mean "identified him"?
Mr.Boyd. He took his identification out of his pocket and put it down there in front of him and told him who he was with.
Mr.Ball. He told Oswald his name and who he was with?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What else happened?
Mr.Boyd. Well, they participated in the interrogation—Mr. Hosty asked him some questions and he was pretty upset with Mr. Hosty.
Mr.Ball. What do you mean by that, what gave you that impression—what happened?
Mr.Boyd. Well, just by Oswald's actions, he said he had been to his house two or three times talking to his wife and he didn't appreciate him coming out there when he wasn't there.
Mr.Ball. Is that what he said to Hosty?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Anything else?
Mr.Boyd. I don't recall—I know Mr. Hosty asked him several questions and finally he jumped up and hit the desk, Oswald did, and sat down, and like I say, he was pretty upset.
Mr.Ball. Was he handcuffed at that time?
Mr.Boyd. Yes; I believe he was handcuffed.
Mr.Ball. Was he handcuffed with his hands behind him?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Had his hands been handcuffed behind him before he came into the room?
Mr.Boyd. I couldn't say if they had or not—they could have been.
Mr.Ball. Do you know whether the handcuffs were changed after he got in the room?
Mr.Boyd. They could have been changed after he got in the room—I'm not certain.
Mr.Ball. Who changed them?
Mr.Boyd. I don't recall.
Mr.Ball. Now, when Oswald jumped up and struck the desk, he struck the desk with what? With his hand?
Mr.Boyd. With his hands.
Mr.Ball. What did Hosty ask him before that?
Mr.Boyd. He had asked him about a trip to Mexico City?
Mr.Ball. Who did?
Mr.Boyd. Mr. Hosty.
Mr.Ball. What did Oswald say?
Mr.Boyd. He told him he hadn't been to Mexico City.
Mr.Ball. What else?
Mr.Boyd. I don't recall just exactly—I think that the words that he used when he was talking to Mr. Hosty was that he had been out there and accosted his wife, I believe that's the words that he used and like I said, after he talked to him, he said he didn't appreciate him coming out there to his house.
Mr.Ball. What was it that Hosty said before Oswald got up and struck the desk with his hand—what question did he ask?
Mr.Boyd. I don't remember what the question was. I know it had something to do with—let me see—I'm not sure if he was still talking to him about his wife or the trip to Mexico City.
Mr.Ball. You remember he did ask him if he took a trip to Mexico?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Oswald said he had not?
Mr.Boyd. He said he had not been to Mexico.
Mr.Ball. And what did Hosty say to that?
Mr.Boyd. He asked him if he denied being to Mexico City—I've just forgotten—it wasn't too awful long before that—I don't recall just exactly what time that he said—I know it was something recent.
Mr.Ball. What did Oswald say?
Mr.Boyd. He said he had not been there.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember anything else that was said?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir; right offhand—I don't.
Mr.Stern. Did he ask him anything about Russia?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir; something was asked him—I don't recall who asked him about that, and he told us about going over to Russia, I believe he was there in 1959, or something like that—about 1959. I'll tell you, I didn't keep notes in there because of the fact I was sitting right beside Oswald—right in front of him—more or less.
Mr.Ball. Did anybody keep notes?
Mr.Boyd. I saw the FBI man writing—they had a little book—across the table over there.
Mr.Ball. Did you have any microphones in there to record the conversation?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you as a practice record the interrogations of your prisoners?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir; we don't.
Mr.Ball. How long did this take—how long was he questioned at this time?
Mr.Boyd. Let me see—we took him down to the first showup right after 4 o'clock, I think I have the exact time here—4:05 is when we left.
Mr.Ball. Was he in Captain Fritz' office from the time you took him in there—what time was that?
Mr.Boyd. At 2:15–2:20.
Mr.Ball. From 2:20 until 4 o'clock?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, you took him into the first showup, did you?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, we left Captain Fritz' office at 4:05.
Mr.Ball. Who picked the men to go in the showup with him?
Mr.Boyd. Who picked the men?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Boyd. I don't recall who picked those men.
Mr.Ball. Did you?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Did Sims?
Mr.Boyd. I don't recall if he did—I don't recall who picked those men.
Mr.Ball. Who were the men in this showup?
Mr.Boyd. Well, one of them's names was—we call him Bill Perry, his name is William E. Perry, he's a police officer and he was No. 1; and we had Lee Oswald, was No. 2; and R. L. Clark was No. 3; and Don Ables was No. 4.
Mr.Ball. The No. 4 man was a clerk there in the jail, was he?
Mr.Boyd. I believe he was a clerk down in the jail office.
Mr.Ball. Is it usual to have police officers show up with prisoners?
Mr.Boyd. Well, I have seen them in there before—I mean—it isn't done real often.
Mr.Ball. It's unusual to use officers to showup with prisoners?
Mr.Boyd. Well, I would say so, but I know that there has been officers.
Mr.Ball. Is that usual to use Don Ables, the clerk, in a showup?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. It is unusual?
Mr.Boyd. Yes.
Mr.Ball. The usual thing is to have other prisoners come in handcuffed with the suspect, isn't it?
Mr.Boyd. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Do you know why that wasn't done in this case?
Mr.Boyd. No; I do not.
Mr.Ball. When did you first learn that officers were going to go with you and with Oswald into the showup?
Mr.Boyd. When we got ready for the showup.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear anybody direct them to go into the showup with Oswald?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. You say when you got ready for the showup, that would mean where—where were you when you heard that officers were going to take part in the showup?
Mr.Boyd. Well, I guess it was down in the jail office. We took Lee Oswald down on the elevator and met the rest of them there in the jail office in the lobby there, to the best of my recollection.
Mr.Ball. Before you went into the showup, did you search Oswald?
Mr.Boyd. Yes; I did.
Mr.Ball. And what did you find?
Mr.Boyd. I found five .38 shells, I believe it was five.
Mr.Ball. Live? Live shells?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you do with them?
Mr.Boyd. Well, I put them in an envelope and put them with the rest of the property up there to be turned in.
Mr.Ball. Did you put any mark on them?
Mr.Boyd. Let me see—I can look and see.
Mr.Ball. I will show you Commission Exhibit 592 in an envelope, will you take a look at that—at the cartridges?
Mr.Boyd. Yes—I got my mark on them.
Mr.Ball. You have your mark on all five of them?
Mr.Boyd. I have my mark on the first three—yes, sir—I have my mark on all of them.
Mr.Ball. On all five of them?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You put those marks on there, did you?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, I did.
Mr.Ball. Now, looking those cartridges over, can you tell me whether these five cartridges, which constitute Commission Exhibit 592, are the cartridges which you took from Oswald?
Mr.Boyd. Yes; they are.
Mr.Ball. And where were you when you put the mark on them?
Mr.Boyd. I was back up in my office.
Mr.Ball. When you first took them from Oswald, where did you put them?
Mr.Boyd. I put them in my pocket.
Mr.Ball. And after you were back in the office, you put a mark on them, did you?
Mr.Boyd. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And turned them over to whom?
Mr.Boyd. Well, let me see—it seems like we had a drawer there where we had some more property, where we put it all in there—you know, where they had the other stuff—I have forgotten just exactly where it would be.
Mr.Ball. You turned them over to someone in the police department?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, the showup was conducted and what side of the showup were you on? Stage side or out front?
Mr.Boyd. I was right next to the door on the inside, where you go into that showup room from the room leading into the jail office.
Mr.Ball. Who asked the questions?
Mr.Boyd. Let me see—at one of the showups—I've forgotten whether it was on this particular one—whether it was someone out from—Sims asked him some questions in one of those showups.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever ask any questions?
Mr.Boyd. Not that I recall—I don't believe I did.
Mr.Ball. How were these men dressed that were in this showup?
Mr.Boyd. Well, let me think—some of them had coats and slacks and one of them—let's see—I don't recall what color, but some of them—I don't believe any of them had a tie on—the officers had taken their ties off and I think Ables, I believe, was in his shirt sleeves.
Mr.Ball. Without a tie—did he have a tie on?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir; I don't believe so.
Mr.Ball. Ables was in his shirt sleeves. What about the two officers, Perry?
Mr.Boyd. Now, I remember Perry had on a coat, but he didn't have his shirt buttoned back up at the top, I remember that.
Mr.Ball. What about Clark?
Mr.Boyd. As I remember, Clark had on a white shirt. Now, I'm not sure—well, I'm not sure if he had on a coat or not, but I remember seeing him in a white shirt as he came in.
Mr.Ball. Were they manacled—handcuffed?
Mr.Boyd. Yes; they were handcuffed.
Mr.Ball. All four of them?
Mr.Boyd. Yes—handcuffed together.
Mr.Ball. What did Oswald have on?
Mr.Boyd. Well, he had on some—I believe it was dark slacks—it seems like it was a brown shirt he had on—he had on a long-sleeved shirt. It seems like he had on a jacket when he first came up there—I'm not too sure about that jacket—I know he had on a sport shirt and slacks.
Mr.Ball. Well, his clothes were a little rougher in character than the other three, weren't they?
Mr.Boyd. Well, could have been.
Mr.Ball. The other three were better dressed than Oswald, would you say?
Mr.Boyd. Well, yes, sir; I would say they probably were.
Mr.Ball. Oswald had a shirt that had a frayed elbow, didn't he, a hole in the elbow, didn't he?
Mr.Boyd. I don't recall if he did or not—I'm not sure.
Mr.Ball. Now, when they asked questions of Oswald at this showup, did he reply?
Mr.Boyd. I believe he did at that one—I believe he did reply.
Mr.Ball. Was he angry?
Mr.Boyd. I don't believe he was too angry.
Mr.Ball. Did he shout or yell in a loud voice?
Mr.Boyd. I don't recall him shouting.
Mr.Ball. He didn't shout or speak in a loud voice at this time?
Mr.Boyd. No.
Mr.Ball. Did he at some other showup protest?
Mr.Boyd. I heard he did, but I don't know.
Mr.Ball. Were you present?
Mr.Boyd. I wasn't present at that one.
Mr.Ball. You weren't present at any time in which he made any protest of the type of showup?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir; I don't believe so.
Mr.Ball. This day—this first showup—did he protest that it was not a fair showup?
Mr.Boyd. I don't recall if he did.
Mr.Ball. Did he at any time tell you after the showup that he didn't think it was fair to put those men in with him?
Mr.Ball. He didn't tell me that—no, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did he ever tell you that any showup had been unfair?
Mr.Boyd. Not that I recall.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you hear any conversation that went on in the audience part of the showup?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir; I couldn't—I don't recall any of it—I couldn't hear anything.
Mr.Ball. Did you know any of the witnesses that were out there?
Mr.Boyd. I couldn't see them.
Mr.Ball. Did you take any witnesses' statements from people who were out in the audience?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. What did you do after that showup?
Mr.Boyd. I took him back—I took Lee Oswald back to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr.Ball. What time did you get him back there?
Mr.Boyd. Well, we left in there, I think it was 4:20—I believe—yes; that was by my watch. I was just going by my watch; it could have been off.
Mr.Ball. Who was present at that interrogation?
Mr.Boyd. Well, let me see—I don't recall who was up there—I think there was an FBI agent and I think a Secret Service man was up there and I don't recall the names of the ones that was there.
Mr.Ball. Was there only one FBI agent at that interrogation?
Mr.Boyd. Well, it seems like that's all there was up there—just one. I think another one came in—now, I never did know—there was another one that came in—now, I never did know—then there was another one that came in, but I didn't ever know if he was Secret Service or an FBI man—I never did know. But someone—I believe, called him back out right after he got in there, but I'm not sure.
Mr.Ball. Do you know the names of the FBI agents?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. How about the Secret Service?
Mr.Boyd. I don't know their names.
Mr.Ball. Was there a Secret Service man there?
Mr.Boyd. I think there was a Secret Service man there.
Mr.Ball. More than one?
Mr.Boyd. Just one.
Mr.Ball. Do you know his name?
Mr.Boyd. Let me see if I have it here.
Mr.Ball. Was Kelley there?
Mr.Boyd. Mr. Kelley was there at one interrogation.
Mr.Ball. How long did this one last that started at 4:20?
Mr.Boyd. Let me see—I don't know, but at 6:20 we took him back downstairs for another showup.
Mr.Ball. Do you think it lasted 2 hours, the interrogation in Fritz' office?
Mr.Boyd. Well, no, sir; I don't think they were in there that long.
Mr.Ball. Did you feed Oswald at any time?
Mr.Boyd. Mr. Hall—I don't know—I believe someone asked him if he wanted anything and he said he didn't. Mr. Hall finally gave him a cup of coffee—he finally took a cup of coffee from Mr. Hall—I don't recall just exactly the time—that's M. G. Hall.
Mr.Ball. He's one of your partners?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir [spelling] H-a-l-l, and I think—let me see—I know that he gave him a cup of coffee.
Mr.Ball. Well, from the time that you first took Oswald into your custody after 2:15 or so, you said, until you put him in jail that night about 12:20, or 12:30, did he have anything to eat?
Mr.Boyd. I don't believe so because he said he didn't want anything.
Mr.Ball. Did you eat?
Mr.Boyd. I ate real late that night—I don't remember just what time it was.
Mr.Ball. How late?
Mr.Boyd. I think I ate around 9 o'clock—I'm not sure about that—it could have been 10.