Mr.Ball. Now, in this interrogation that started about 4:20, do you remember what was said?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir; I sure don't.
Mr.Ball. Was Oswald handcuffed?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir; I think he was handcuffed.
Mr.Ball. Were the handcuffs in front or behind?
Mr.Boyd. They were in front of him, I believe, still.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember anything that took place at that interrogation—anything that was said?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir—I sure don't.
Mr.Ball. Now, at 6:20 there was another showup?
Mr.Boyd. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And who was present at that showup?
Mr.Boyd. We had the same showup as we had had before and they were numbered the same as they were before.
Mr.Ball. Were the men dressed any differently?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir; they were dressed like they were before.
Mr.Ball. And do you know who conducted the showup—asked the questions?
Mr.Boyd. Now, I believe that this is the one that Mr. Sims asked some questions.
Mr.Ball. Do you know who it was that asked the questions at the first showup that afternoon?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir; I do not.
Mr.Ball. Was there a Mr. Leavelle on duty that day?
Mr.Boyd. Mr. Leavelle was down there, I believe, on that day.
Mr.Ball. Did he ask questions at any of the showups?
Mr.Boyd. I think he did, but I'm afraid to say for sure because I don't really know.
Mr.Ball. At the second showup, did Oswald answer the questions—at 6:20?
Mr.Boyd. Yes; I think he answered the questions.
Mr.Ball. Was he angry?
Mr.Boyd. I don't recall him being angry.
Mr.Ball. Did he talk louder than the other three men?
Mr.Boyd. Not especially that I noticed.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear any of the conversation that went on in the audience part of the showup?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear anything that was said to the witnesses, or what they said to the officers?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you do after that showup?
Mr.Boyd. We took him back up to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr.Ball. That was about what time?
Mr.Boyd. I think it was 6:30 or 7 when we left the showup room when we took him there.
Mr.Ball. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office at that time?
Mr.Boyd. Well, that was when Justice of the Peace David Johnston [spelling] J-o-h-n-s-t-o-n, and our assistant district attorney, Bill Alexander, William F. Alexander, I believe is his true name—they came in with Captain Fritz.
Mr.Ball. Oswald was there too, was he?
Mr.Boyd. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What took place there?
Mr.Boyd. Well, Captain Fritz signed a murder complaint against Lee Harvey Oswald and that was for the murder of J. D. Tippit.
Mr.Ball. Was there some conversation that took place there at that time in front of Oswald?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What was it, that you can remember?
Mr.Boyd. Well, I believe Judge Johnston, I believe, read the charge to Oswald, and—well, I don't recall the rest of that conversation.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember what Oswald said?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. At any time in any of the interrogations did you ever hear of anyone accuse Oswald of having shot Officer Tippit?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir—I heard—I believe I heard Captain Fritz talk to him about shooting Officer Tippit—I don't remember what interrogation it was in.
Mr.Ball. What did Oswald say?
Mr.Boyd. He said he didn't shoot anyone.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever hear anybody accuse Oswald of shooting the President, President Kennedy?
Mr.Boyd. I remember hearing them talk to him about shooting the President.
Mr.Ball. Who talked to him about it?
Mr.Boyd. I believe it was Captain Fritz.
Mr.Ball. What did Oswald say?
Mr.Boyd. He said he didn't shoot anyone.
Mr.Ball. Now, do you remember what Oswald said when Judge Johnston read the charge to Oswald? The charge of murder of Tippit, if he said anything?
Mr.Boyd. I think he said something, but I cannot tell you what it was.
Mr.Ball. You don't recall that?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Oswald did make some statement, though?
Mr.Boyd. I believe he said something—yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did he ask for a lawyer?
Mr.Boyd. Well, let me see, he wanted to get in touch with a lawyer—I believe it was a lawyer by the name of Abt [spelling] A-b-t in New York City.
Mr.Ball. When did he say that? When did he tell you that?
Mr.Boyd. It was—either right before the first showup, or right after the first showup.
Mr.Ball. What did you tell him?
Mr.Boyd. Captain Fritz said he would—he didn't ask me, he was talking to Captain Fritz—yes.
Mr.Ball. This was in Captain Fritz' office?
Mr.Boyd. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What did Fritz say?
Mr.Boyd. He said he would see if he could make arrangements later on for him to use the telephone later on and call him.
Mr.Ball. Was anything said about who would pay for the call?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. No mention of that?
Mr.Boyd. I think he said he would call collect—I'm not sure.
Mr.Ball. Who said that—Oswald?
Mr.Boyd. Oswald.
Mr.Ball. Now, after the murder complaint was signed, what did you do?
Mr.Boyd. Well, let me see, I believe after that was signed, Mr. Clements—I believe, came in there.
Mr.Ball. In where?
Mr.Boyd. In Captain Fritz' office, and started talking to Lee Oswald.
Mr.Ball. And do you remember what he asked him?
Mr.Boyd. Well, I know he asked him about his name and I think he asked him where he was born, I think, and he asked him about his life in Russia—when he went to Russia and when he came back—I don't recall all of that.
Mr.Ball. And Oswald answered the questions?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir; I'll tell you—Oswald, he answered his questions until he finally—well, this interrogation was interrupted by another showup, and after we came back up Mr. Clements continued his interrogation and finally Oswald told him he was just tired talking and he thought he had talked long enough and he didn't have anything else to say.
He came in there and he wanted to get a little—well, he told him he wanted to get a little of his personal history and background, and Oswald finally got up and said, "What started out to be a short interrogation turned out to be rather lengthy," and he said, "I believe I have answered all the questions I have cared to answer, and I don't care to say anything else."
And sat back down.
Mr.Ball. He stood up and said that, did he?
Mr.Boyd. Yes; he stood up and said it. He just sat back in the chair and said, "I don't care to talk any more."
Mr.Ball. The first interrogation by Clements was interrupted, wasn't it?
Mr.Boyd. Yes.
Mr.Ball. That was interrupted by a showup, and that would be the third showup that you participated in?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And that took place at what time?
Mr.Boyd. It was 7:30, let me see, no—7:40.
Mr.Ball. And who took part in that showup?
Mr.Boyd. You mean the officers?
Mr.Ball. No; who were the parties in the showup?
Mr.Boyd. Well, the first one was Richard Walter Borchgardt, and No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald, and No. 3 was—I have the wrong name in here—I have the last name—I just asked him his name as he came out in the showup room there and I understood him to say it was Braswell but it was Brazel.
Mr.Ball. Brazell—how do you spell that?
Mr.Boyd. [Spelling.] Brazel. B-r-a-z-e-l.
Mr.Ball. What is his full name?
Mr.Boyd. Ellis Carl Brazel.
Mr.Ball. He was the third man?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Who was the fourth man?
Mr.Boyd. Don Ables was the fourth.
Mr.Ball. Was there some reason why you changed the parties to the showup?
Mr.Boyd. I don't know any reason.
Mr.Ball. Who directed that?
Mr.Boyd. I don't know—we met them down in the jail office and they had those three men down there.
Mr.Ball. What is the usual thing—when you are going to have a showup and you are in charge of investigation, who picks the people who appear in the showup?
Mr.Boyd. Well, most of the time we call down to the jail office and have them send us down—if he's already in jail, we just have them send up there and get him and just how many we want in the showup and we will tell them to give us this particular one—or three or four men—whatever the case may be.
Mr.Ball. Who picks them?
Mr.Boyd. The jailers upstairs.
Mr.Ball. Do you tell them to get them all the same color?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir; we always tell them to get them all the same color. I never have had too much trouble getting them all the same color.
Mr.Ball. What about the size and weight?
Mr.Boyd. Now, we always tell them to get them as near the same size and age and weight as they can. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.
Mr.Ball. In this case you didn't pick the men for the showup?
Mr.Boyd. I didn't know them—no, sir.
Mr.Ball. Or any of the showups?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, this third showup took place at what time?
Mr.Boyd. We left the office at 7:40 and it takes, like I say, 2 or 3 minutes to get downstairs, and we got him back—we left down there to go back up at 7:55.
Mr.Ball. Who conducted the questioning on this third showup which you attended?
Mr.Boyd. I don't recall who did.
Mr.Ball. What about Oswald's manner in the third showup?
Mr.Boyd. I don't recall him being any different in that showup than the first two.
Mr.Ball. What about the appearance of the men in this showup—let's take the No. 1 man—what was his coloring and weight and size?
Mr.Boyd. Well, let's see—this is that Richard Walter Borchgardt. He was born May 30, 1940, and our records show him to be 5' 9", and 161 pounds.
Mr.Ball. That's [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t?
Mr.Boyd. That's [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t.
Mr.Ball. 161 pounds?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir; he had brown hair and blue eyes and fair complexion.
Mr.Ball. What was he in for, do you know?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, he was in for CPW and investigation of burglary and theft.
Mr.Ball. Then, the second man was who?
Mr.Boyd. Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr.Ball. And the third man—was who?
Mr.Boyd. Ellis Carl Brazel [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l.
Mr.Ball. That's [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l—just one "l"?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. He was No. 3 and what is his description?
Mr.Boyd. He was born November 24, 1941, and it shows him to be 5' 10", 169 pounds, green eyes, blond hair, ruddy complexion.
Mr.Ball. What was he in for?
Mr.Boyd. I think he was in for tickets.
Mr.Ball. You mean, going too fast—speeding?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir; I believe that's right, or having some overdue tickets—he could have been in for something else, but that's what I think he was in for.
Mr.Ball. And Don Ables is the fourth man?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. He was the No. 4 man in the first two shows, too?
Mr.Boyd. This shows him to be 5' 9", 165 pounds.
Mr.Ball. What do you have Oswald down for?
Mr.Boyd. I don't have his description down, but I think he told me he was 5' and 8" or 9" and weighed 140-something pounds—I believe that is what he told me.
Mr.Ball. Do you know what happened to Borchgardt?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Ball. Or to Brazel?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, in this showup, the third showup, was Oswald's manner any different than it had been the first two showups?
Mr.Boyd. I don't recall it being any different.
Mr.Ball. Did he shout, yell, or anything of the sort?
Mr.Boyd. I don't believe, because when he got back upstairs there, he started talking to Mr. Clements again and he didn't get upset.
Mr.Ball. How long did he talk to Mr. Clements? This last time?
Mr.Boyd. Well, let's see—he didn't talk to him but for about half an hour.
Mr.Ball. Then, after that what happened?
Mr.Boyd. Well, after Mr. Clements left, well, in a few minutes Detective Johnny Hicks and R. L. Studebaker from the crime lab came down to the office, that's Captain Fritz' office, and Detective Hicks fingerprinted Oswald and Sgt. Pete Barnes came in, and shortly afterward Capt. George Doughty came down and stayed just a few minutes and went back up, and he left out and I don't know where he went.
Mr.Ball. What did Barnes do?
Mr.Boyd. Well, he helped Johnny Hicks make some paraffin casts of Oswald's hands and the right side of his face.
Mr.Ball. You were there when that happened?
Mr.Boyd. I was in and out—I was in more than I was out. I was in and out at the time that was going on.
Mr.Ball. Then what happened—what did you do after that?
Mr.Boyd. About 11:30 Mr. Sims and I made out some arrest sheets on Lee Oswald.
Mr.Ball. And where was Oswald then?
Mr.Boyd. He was still up in the homicide office.
Mr.Ball. Did you question him again?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. And what did you do after that?
Mr.Boyd. Well, shortly after that Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came in, and Chief Curry asked us to take Lee Oswald back down into the assembly room and to take him out in front of the showup stage, and he told us not to let anyone get near to him or touch him—if they did—if anyone even tried it, to take him immediately to jail.
Mr.Boyd. What did you do then?
Mr.Boyd. We went down there and stayed, I'll say, 5 minutes or so.
Mr.Ball. What happened when you stayed the 5 minutes—describe what you did?
Mr.Boyd. Well, there was a bunch of news reporters down there.
Mr.Ball. Television cameras?
Mr.Boyd. I believe there was some cameras in there—I'm not sure about the cameras—I know that there was a lot of reporters down there. They had some cameras on the outside.
Mr.Ball. What did you do with Oswald?
Mr.Boyd. We took him up there and some of them asked him some questions and he talked back and forth there for a minute and finally we got him and took him up in the jail office and carried him on up and put him in the jail.
Mr.Ball. Was Oswald angry?
Mr.Boyd. Part of the time he was.
Mr.Ball. What was said—can you remember?
Mr.Boyd. I remember somebody hollering out back there, "Why did you shoot the President?"
Mr.Ball. What did he say?
Mr.Boyd. He said, "I didn't shoot anyone."
Mr.Ball. You took him on up there, then, did you?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you put him in jail for the night, did you?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And then you went home and went to bed?
Mr.Boyd. Later on I did.
Mr.Ball. What time did you go to work the next day—that would be November 23.
Mr.Boyd. I think I got in around 9 o'clock.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you do?
Mr.Boyd. I arrived at 9:30 and I stayed around the office until 10:25 and Mr. Sims, Hall, and myself went up and got Lee Oswald out of jail again and brought him down to my office.
Mr.Ball. Who told you to do that?
Mr.Boyd. Captain Fritz.
Mr.Ball. What did you do when you brought him down to your office?
Mr.Boyd. Well, Mr. Fritz and the FBI and Mr. Robert Nash, the U.S. marshal, and Mr. Kelley of Secret Service were in Captain Fritz' office at that time.
Mr.Ball. Who else was in the office?
Mr.Boyd. Let me see—I believe Mr. Sims and Hall, and Captain Fritz were there.
Mr.Ball. Now, Sims said he didn't stay there.
Mr.Boyd. Well, he came back out after we got him down there—that's right.
Mr.Ball. You stayed there, didn't you?
Mr.Boyd. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And you heard what was said?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Tell us what you heard.
Mr.Boyd. Well, I know Mr. Nash asked him a question or two.
Mr.Ball. What were they?
Mr.Boyd. I don't recall what questions he asked.
Mr.Ball. Who else asked questions?
Mr.Boyd. Captain Fritz talked to him and—let me see—I don't remember if Mr. Bookhout—it seemed like Mr. Bookhout asked a question or two—I believe all of them asked him something.
Mr.Ball. Do you know what they asked?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember what Oswald said?
Mr.Boyd. Well, let me see—no, sir; I can't recall what he said; like I say, I didn't keep notes there because I was sitting right near Oswald.
Mr.Ball. Was Oswald handcuffed?
Mr.Boyd. Yes; he was handcuffed.
Mr.Ball. Were the handcuffs in the front or in the back?
Mr.Boyd. They were in the front of him.
Mr.Ball. How long did this questioning last?
Mr.Boyd. It didn't last too awful long—about an hour or so, I believe, and we took him back to the jail at 11:30.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you do?
Mr.Boyd. Then Mr. Sims and Hall and Mr. Dhority, who is another detective in our bureau—went out to 1026 North Beckley to recheck Oswald's room out there.
Mr.Ball. Did you go out there then?
Mr.Boyd. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you have a search warrant?
Mr.Boyd. Let me see—I'm not sure if I had a search warrant—I know the landlady was there and let us in there. I didn't have the search warrant myself, I'll say that. One of the other officers might have had a search warrant.
Mr.Ball. But you didn't have one?
Mr.Boyd. I didn't have one.
Mr.Ball. You don't know whether you had one or not?
Mr.Boyd. I know there was a search warrant gotten but I didn't get it.
Mr.Ball. Well, there was a search warrant issued to search 1026 North Beckley the day before?
Mr.Boyd. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And it was searched the day before—you knew that, didn't you?
Mr.Boyd. Yes.
Mr.Ball. When you searched it this day, what did you find?
Mr.Boyd. Nothing.
Mr.Ball. Did you take anything with you?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. You took nothing out?
Mr.Boyd. I don't believe so. I think it was pretty clean.
Mr.Ball. What kind of furnishings did you see in there?
Mr.Boyd. Well, I saw a little bed, just a little small dresser—it barely would go in there and you barely did have room enough to walk between the dresser and the wall. The fact is the whole works were—wasn't any wider than that—just about that wide [indicating].
Mr.Ball. The whole room?
Mr.Boyd. The whole room.
Mr.Ball. It wasn't any wider than how many feet?
Mr.Boyd. I would say it wasn't over about 12 feet long and about 5 feet wide or something like that.
Mr.Ball. Did it have curtains on the windows?
Mr.Boyd. Well, it had—let's see, I'm not sure if it was curtains or blinds. It had one little bed in there and it barely did have room enough to get in there and go to bed.
Mr.Ball. You don't recall whether it had curtains or blinds?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir; I do not.
Mr.Ball. Did you see Oswald again that day?
Mr.Boyd. I don't believe I did—let me see.
Mr.Ball. Well, it says in your report you brought him in at 6:30.
Mr.Boyd. I didn't do that.
Mr.Ball. You didn't do it? You were off duty?
Mr.Boyd. I wasn't off duty, but I just wasn't at the office at that time.
Mr.Ball. You don't think you saw him again?
Mr.Boyd. I don't believe so.
Mr.Ball. What about November 24?
Mr.Boyd. I worked late on the night of the 23d so I wouldn't have to come back early the next morning.
Mr.Ball. Then, you were with him on the 24th?
Mr.Boyd. I wasn't with him on the 24th—I was watching on the TV at home—I wasn't at home—I was out at my mother-in-law's at Irving, Tex., and I called Lieutenant Baker right after I learned about Oswald.
Mr.Ball. I want to ask you a question about Oswald's appearance when you first saw him. Did he have any marks on his face?
Mr.Boyd. He had one markup—I believe it was on his left eye—the thing that I noticed or was noticeable. And I asked him where he got that and he said, "Well, I struck an officer and he struck me back." He said, "Which he should have done."
Mr.Ball. Did he say "He should have done that?" Did Oswald say that?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. I want the exact words, not your version—give me the exact words.
Mr.Boyd. I'll tell you—I asked him how he got this place on his eye, and he says, "Well, I struck an officer and the officer struck me back, which he should have done."
Mr.Ball. Those were the exact words?
Mr.Boyd. Those were the exact words.
Mr.Ball. Was there anything else said about that?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir; he didn't seem too much upset about it.
Mr.Ball. Did he ever complain to you that he had been abused by the officers at the time of the arrest?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did he ever use the term that "police brutality"—did he ever use that term to you?
Mr.Boyd. I don't remember him ever using the term "police brutality".
Mr.Ball. Did he ever ask you to get him a lawyer?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir; he didn't ask me to get him one.
Mr.Ball. Were you present at any time when a lawyer visited Oswald?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir; I wasn't present—we asked him, did he want a lawyer here—Captain Fritz the next morning had asked him, and he said he didn't want a lawyer, he wanted Mr. Abt.
Mr.Ball. Do you have some questions?
Mr.Stern. What was your impression of Oswald—the way he handled himself, what kind of a man did he seem to you?
Mr.Boyd. I'll tell you, I've never saw another man just exactly like him.
Mr.Stern. In what way?
Mr.Boyd. Well, you know, he acted like he was intelligent; just as soon as you would ask him a question, he would just give you the answer right back—he didn't hesitate about his answers. I mean, as soon as you would pop him a question, he would shoot you an answer right back and, like I said, I never saw a man that could answer questions like he did.
Mr.Stern. Did he seem to be under stress or calm in those terms?
Mr.Boyd. Well, at times he was just as calm as could be, then once in a while he would—I don't know just how to tell you, but every now and then he would be talking and he would be just as calm and the next minute he would just liable to be—I mean his attitude, you know, would change, you know, rather frequently, but most of the time when he would be talking to you he was rather calm.
Mr.Stern. When it changed, was it for any noticeable reason or did it change apparently?
Mr.Boyd. Well, most of the time, you know, it was just when somebody would say something—some little something he didn't like, and he would—he didn't become mad, but the worst thing he did was when he jumped up and slapped the desk.
Mr.Stern. During the Hosty interrogation?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. He seemed to you to understand generally his rights?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. And do you know that he wasn't required to answer?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Of course, this was a long day for everybody—did he seem by the end of the day still to be in command of himself, or did he appear tired or particularly worn out?
Mr.Boyd. Well, he didn't appear to be as tired as I felt—he didn't appear to be, because I imagine he could have been tired—he didn't show it.
Mr.Stern. This is quite unnatural—really rather exceptional; this is, of course, why you say somewhat unusual, a man accused of killing two people, one of them the President of the United States, and at the end of the day, he is pretty well in command?
Can you tell us in any other respect about the kind of person he seemed to you—anything else that you observed about him, as you now recall?
Mr.Boyd. I don't know—he just struck me as being the man, you know, who liked to move around a lot—I don't know that he did, but he just struck me as being a man that acted like he was not satisfied and—in one place.
Mr.Ball. When you participated in the search of Oswald and found five pistol cartridges in his pants pocket, was there any discussion of these bullets with him; did he say anything, or did you say anything to him about it?
Mr.Boyd. I just asked him, "What were they doing in there," and he said, "I just had them in my pocket."
Mr.Stern. The memorandum mentions the cartridges—bus transfer, except that he had a ring on his finger which he took off and he gave it to Mr. Sims, Do you remember any other items that he had that you got from him during this search?
Mr.Boyd. No, sir; I know that Mr. Sims did get the bus transfer and took his ring—he took his ring off and give it to Mr. Sims, and I got those five shells, and that's all that I recall being taken from him.
Mr.Stern. Do you remember an identification bracelet in the course of that investigation?
Mr.Boyd. Let me see—I'm trying to think if he had an identification bracelet.
When we were up in Captain Fritz' office the first time—I recall—I don't recall if I saw that bracelet then or not—it seemed like I did. I know I saw a little card with his picture on it.
Mr.Stern. But this was not something you obtained in your search?
Mr.Boyd. No; I didn't.
Mr.Stern. That had been obtained earlier, apparently.
That's all. Do you have anything else?
Mr.Ely. Yes. Mr. Boyd, when you first saw Oswald when you went to the interrogation room and got him—do you remember that?
Mr.Boyd. Yes.
Mr.Ely. Who was with him in the interrogation room prior to your arrival?
Mr.Boyd. I am not positive about who was with him—there's some uniformed men in there and I believe there was Officer K. E. Lyons, but I would be afraid to say for sure, because I'm not positive, but I believe that's who it was.
Mr.Ely. Do you know whether whoever it was there with them, were they talking to him or questioning him, or don't you know?
Mr.Boyd. Well, I don't know. I just took it that they were the ones that brought him into—into the office up there. They were more or less just waiting for somebody.
I just assumed they were part of the officers that were out in the Texas Theatre where they arrested him and transferred down to our office from Oak Cliff.
Mr.Ely. Now, referring to the press conference Friday night, I believe you mentioned that part of the time Oswald seemed angry to you, do you know what it was that upset him?
Mr.Boyd. When someone called to him and asked him why he shot the President, that seemed like that's what upset him.
Mr.Ely. Do you know if there is anyone who could tell us who picked the people in the various lineups—you don't know exactly, but did you know, is there anybody you could tell us?
Mr.Boyd. I just don't know who it would be.
Mr.Ely. On Friday night, about what time did you check Oswald into the jail there?
Mr.Boyd. I think it was around 12:20 in the morning, I believe. According to my watch, I believe that's what I went by—that's what the time would be, of course, it could be a few minutes off. We turned him over to the jailers at 12:23 a.m.
Mr.Ely. Do you know whether he was checked out of the jail again after that time? Late at night—I realize you checked him out the next morning.
Mr.Boyd. No sir; I don't know.
Mr.Ely. You I don't know?
Mr.Boyd. No.
Mr.Ely. I believe that's all I have.
Mr.Ball. Well, Mr. Boyd, this will be written up and it will be submitted toyou and you can read it over and correct it and sign it if you wish. That's one procedure you can follow.
Or, this young lady will write it up and we'll send it on to the Commission as it is if you waive your signature. You have your option—you can do either one.
Mr.Boyd. I think she probably got it down all right—I'll trust her.
Mr.Ball. Then, you are waiving your signature?
Mr.Boyd. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Thank you very much, and I am glad to have met you.
Mr.Boyd. Glad to have met you, Mr. Ball.
The testimony of Robert Lee Studebaker was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.
Mr.Ball. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Will you state your name, please?
Mr.Studebaker. R. L. Studebaker—Robert Lee.
Mr.Ball. And you have been requested to appear here to give testimony in this inquiry, have you not, by your Chief of Police, who told you that we had a matter requiring your testimony?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. The subject of the testimony is the assassination of President Kennedy.
You made certain investigations on November 22 and 23 and 24 with respect to that, did you not?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What I want to ask you is what you did at that time. Can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born, where you went to school, and what your training is?
Mr.Studebaker. I was born in Niles, Mich., and attended several schools and have been in Dallas and I have been in the Air Force and came to Dallas in 1950, and have been in the Police Department since February 8, 1954, and right now I am a detective in the Crime Scene Service Section of the ID Bureau of the Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Ball. What sort of training did you have for the crime lab work that you are doing?
Mr.Studebaker. It's just on-the-job training—you go out with old officers and learn how to dust for prints and take pictures and fingerprints.
Mr.Ball. Have you had any special training in identification fingerprints?
Mr.Studebaker. No, sir; we don't classify prints too much where we are. We just compare them.
Mr.Ball. What is the technique of lifting a print, as you call it?
Mr.Studebaker. Well, it's just using the regular dusting powder that we have and if you find something that you want to dust, you dust for the print. We used on this special case up there on those boxes and things, we have a special powder that we used on that.
Mr.Ball. Then you take a picture of the print—a photograph?
Mr.Studebaker. Of this area, we just taped it to preserve it. We just lift the print and then tape it to preserve it.
Mr.Ball. By "lifting a print," you mean to make it stand out?
Mr.Studebaker. Raising it up; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. By means of your dusting powder?
Mr.Studebaker. By a chemical, yes. This certain print that was up there, we used this special powder for cardboard and paper. That's what it's used for.
Mr.Ball. Now, on the 22d of November 1963, were you on duty that day?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What time did you go to work?
Mr.Studebaker. 7 a.m.
Mr.Ball. In the morning?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What are your hours—7 to 3?
Mr.Studebaker. 7 to 3.
Mr.Ball. Did you get a call to go down to the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What time did you go down there?
Mr.Studebaker. I believe we got the call about 1:05—we was down there about 1:15.
Mr.Ball. And whom did you go with?
Mr.Studebaker. Lieutenant Day and I answered the call.
Mr.Ball. What equipment did you take with you?
Mr.Studebaker. We took our camera and fingerprint kits and our truck. We have a truck that is equipped with all that stuff—a station wagon.
Mr.Ball. Each one of you had a camera, did you?
Mr.Studebaker. No, sir; we just had one camera.
Mr.Ball. What kind of camera was it?
Mr.Studebaker. It's a Graflex, a 4 by 5 Speed Graflex.
Mr.Ball. Have you had some experience in operating a camera?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. How much?
Mr.Studebaker. Well, on this certain camera?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Studebaker. About 2 months.
Mr.Ball. But you have had photography in your crime lab work?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. For how long?
Mr.Studebaker. Was about 2 months.
Mr.Ball. How long have you done photography altogether?
Mr.Studebaker. In my lifetime?
Mr.Ball. No, as one of the assistants in the crime lab, what period of years?
Mr.Studebaker. 2 months. I went to the crime lab in October, the 1st of October.
Mr.Ball. You did—had you done any photography before that?
Mr.Studebaker. Just home photography.
Mr.Ball. And the fingerprint equipment, is that the dusting powder you mentioned?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And what else?
Mr.Studebaker. Just anything we had in the truck. We have the truck complete.
Mr.Ball. You have different kinds of fingerprint dusting powder for different substances?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. How many different kinds of powder do you have?
Mr.Studebaker. Well, we have a gray powder that we use for lifting prints and use under an ultra-violet light and we have a black volcano powder that we use on white or grey surfaces, and then just recently we purchased this new powder—it's a magnetic powder. It's a new type of powder that you just use something like a pen to lift your powder out of the jar that it's in and it will lift a print off of a paper better than your regular dusting powder. It's more accurate in lifting a print than anything I have ever seen. It's a new type powder—a magnetic powder is what it is, and they have a jet black and a gray and a silver-gray and different types of powder in there that you can use on different types surfaces.
Mr.Ball. By "lifting the prints," you mean it stands out?
Mr.Studebaker. Raising the print up, raising the invisible print which is a latent print and it will raise the moisture out of the paper that it is pressed on. It takes 7 pounds of pressure to leave a latent fingerprint and the moisture in your fingers, in the pores of your skin, is what leaves the print on the paper, but it is invisible until you put your powder on there and then it raises it.
Mr.Ball. Now, on this day when you went to the Texas School Book Depository Building, did you go directly to some particular floor?
Mr.Studebaker. We went to the entrance and they said it was on the sixth floor and we went directly to the sixth floor.
Mr.Ball. Then, were you directed to some place on the sixth floor, as soon as you arrived there?
Mr.Studebaker. No; they hadn't found anything when we got there.
Mr.Ball. After you were there a little while, did somebody find something?
Mr.Studebaker. They found the empty hulls in the southeast corner of the building—they found three empty hulls and we went over there and took photographs of that.
Mr.Ball. Do you have that photograph with you?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Could I see it, please?
Mr.Studebaker. Now, I took two of the photographs and Lieutenant Day took two. We took double shots on each one. These are the ones I took myself—these pictures. There's the two pictures that I took. This one was right before anything was moved. There is a hull here, a hull here, and a hull over here.
Mr.Ball. Now, this picture you have just identified as the picture you took, we will mark it as Exhibit "A" in your deposition.
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit A," for identification.)
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir; now, on this negative right down here in the bottom corner of this negative, there is another hull—you can just barely see the tip of it right here, and when this picture was printed, the exposure of the printing left this out, but I have one—I didn't know this was like that, but I have another one that shows this hull this way.
You see these boxes all right stacked up here, and you couldn't get over here to take another picture in that way, without getting up on everything and messing everything up. This is exact before anything was ever moved or picked up.
There are just two different views there. You probably got one or two recopies. We printed a bunch of them.
Mr.Ball. Is this the same picture?
Mr.Studebaker. That's the same picture, only you don't have it there either.
Mr.Ball. It doesn't show it?
Mr.Studebaker. It doesn't show the third hull laying beside this box.
Mr.Ball. We have a picture which shows the three hulls, which is Exhibit A, and a picture showing the two hulls, will be marked "Exhibit B."
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit B," for identification.)
Mr.Studebaker. The first pictures was shots on the southeast facing west, and this one here is facing east.
Mr.Ball. In other words, Exhibit A was filmed from the east, with the camera facing west?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And Exhibit B is what?
Mr.Studebaker. Facing east.
Mr.Ball. You are facing east?
Mr.Studebaker. We have a jacket we made up that has all of those pictures numbered in there, and I believe he made an explanation on every one of those.
Mr.Ball. We will identify your Exhibit A as your No. 20 and your Exhibit B as your No. 19. Now, what other pictures did you take?
Mr.Studebaker. Of the rifle?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir; that's why, right after these were taken, they said they had found a rifle and to bring the cameras over to the northwest corner of the building where the rifle was found and I loaded everything up and carried it over there.
Mr.Ball. Did you take a picture of that?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir; on these, Lieutenant Day also took pictures of those, and he also took pictures of this gun. We took two shots apiece.
Mr.Ball. Let's see the shots you took of the place where the gun was located?
Mr.Studebaker. I know it's mine because my knees are in the picture.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember the name of the deputy sheriff that found the gun?
Mr.Studebaker. No, I don't.
Mr.Ball. You have handed me a picture now that I will have marked as "Exhibit C" and it is your No. 22.
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit C," for identification.)
Mr.Ball. That is a picture taken by you of the location of the gun—that was before anyone moved it?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Do you have another shot of that other picture?
Mr.Studebaker. No, we took two from the same location when we was up on top of the stack of boxes shooting down at it, before they picked it up. Actually, there was four negatives of them of the gun, but they are all in the same location, shooting straight down and they were taken on different exposures.
Mr.Ball. You took some other pictures, didn't you?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you take a picture of the window in the southeast corner?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Were there any boxes on the ledge of this window?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you take some pictures showing those boxes?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Was that before any of them were moved?
Mr.Studebaker. That picture right there is the one that shows them, and the other pictures show them before they were moved.
Mr.Ball. You mean Exhibit A and B?
Mr.Studebaker. A and B.
Mr.Ball. Do you have a picture that shows the boxes themselves, just a shot of those boxes in the window?
Mr.Studebaker. This one, Exhibit A, shows that—this is the exact—now, this print here isn't too good, but you can see the indentation in this box right here. This is before it was ever moved, and right down below here, you can see a staple on another box or another negative, this isn't too good a negative here. If I had known what you wanted, I would have brought you a better print—picked out a better print.
Mr.Ball. Now, you say on Exhibit A it shows a box in the window?
Mr.Studebaker. These boxes [indicating], yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Is that the way they were piled up?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, just exactly like that.
Mr.Ball. And you say there is an indentation on that box?
Mr.Studebaker. Right here.
Mr.Ball. That shows in the picture.
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Will you take this pen and sort of surround that and make it look a little heavier?
Mr.Studebaker. (Marked exhibit as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr.Ball. There was an indentation in the box, was there?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, and you can tell on these boxes. We checked them all over and this box is a Second Rolling Readers—that was carried from the fourth aisle over here to over here (indicating) and there is another box that was taken off of this stack—this stack right here.
Mr.Ball. Is it shown in the picture?
Mr.Studebaker. It will show on another negative.
Mr.Ball. You see, somebody reading this can't tell what you mean by "another box taken from this stack here."
Mr.Studebaker. Well, there is a box right under this.
Mr.Ball. Right under what?
Mr.Studebaker. Right under this box.
Mr.Ball. You mean the box that's shown in the window ledge, you mean the little Rolling Readers?
Mr.Studebaker. There are two boxes stacked up here—here's one, and here's one.
Mr.Ball. Were they both Rolling Readers?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes; two small boxes, and then a large box with these books was underneath.
Mr.Ball. It's marked "books"?
Mr.Studebaker. It's marked "books" and it was underneath this box.
Mr.Ball. Now, the box marked "books" was underneath the box marked "Rolling Readers"?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes; Second Rolling Readers.
Mr.Ball. Now, there were two Rolling Readers boxes, weren't there?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Where were they taken from?
Mr.Studebaker. They were taken from the fourth aisle and put there.
Mr.Ball. Where were they stacked in the window?
Mr.Studebaker. Well, this shows as much as you can before anything was moved, and at that time, we went over to this otherplace——
Mr.Ball. Did you take this picture?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir; that was after the boxes were dusted.
Mr.Ball. That's after they were moved?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes, sir; that's when we was trying to get some prints right there.
Mr.Ball. Do you have any pictures of the boxes before they were moved other than those you have showed me?
Mr.Studebaker. Just these two.
Mr.Ball. Just the two that show the cartons, and those are Exhibits A and B?
Mr.Studebaker. We have probably got one down there I can get you that is a lot better print than that. If you want a better print, I can get it for you.
Mr.Ball. Then, you don't have any pictures taken of the boxes before they were moved?
Mr.Studebaker. No.
Mr.Ball. Now, I will show you another picture which we will mark as "Exhibit D," was that taken by you?
Mr.Studebaker. Yes.
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit D," for identification.)
Mr.Ball. Does that show the position of the boxes before or after they were moved?
Mr.Studebaker. That's after they were dusted—there's fingerprint dust on every box.
Mr.Ball. And they were not in that position then when you first saw them?
Mr.Studebaker. No.
Mr.Ball. Now, take a look at it and tell me where were they with reference to the left window sill, were there boxes over close to the left window sill or in the center, or close to the right of the window sill?
Mr.Studebaker. Where is your other picture—and I will show you? See this box right here—this box?
Mr.Ball. We are referring now to the box shown in Exhibit B.
Mr.Studebaker. That's one of these Rolling Readers there in Exhibit B, you can read it right here—it's upside down. It says, "Second Rolling Readers."
Mr.Ball. That says 10.
Mr.Studebaker. No; it says Second; that's that little Rolling Reader—it says "Second Rolling Readers". They don't go by this up there, they go by thisright here, this little print. Now, this box was turned over on its side and you see the tape right here, the way it is wrapped around—that was laying in the window like this on the top box.
Mr.Ball. "In the window like this," you mean as shown on Exhibit B?
Mr.Studebaker. It is Exhibit B.
Mr.Ball. It was on the window ledge?