Mr.Stern. He, I gather, used the word "incommunicado" todescribe——
Mr.Nichols. Yes; that was his word.
Mr.Stern. Did he elaborate on that, or any—or indicate to you that he had not been able to see members of his family or other people of his choice?
Mr.Nichols. No; he did not say that he had been refused anything. Just didn't elaborate, and I really didn't ask him at that point. My inquiry was intentionally very limited. I merely wanted to know whether he had a lawyer, if he had a lawyer then I had no problems.
If he asked for a lawyer and they did not offer him one, that was contrary to what I had been told, because I had been told, as far as the police were concerned, and Mr. Wade, as he recalled, that the man had never asked for a lawyer. Nor had he asked to call a lawyer, for the right to call a lawyer, so that I was interested in knowing whether or not he had a lawyer and whether or not he had requested a lawyer and been refused, because the story up east was that he couldn't get a lawyer to represent him, and I knew that that wasn't true, because I know Dallas lawyers, and I know that if the man had to have a lawyer, we could have gotten one for him. So, I didn't go into the other questions, or whether or not he wanted to see his family and hadn't been permitted. I really was concerned about whether or not he had a lawyer or wanted a lawyer, or whether we had any obligations to furnish him one.
Mr.Stern. Yes; I see. Did he elaborate on his statement to you that he preferred a lawyer who believed in what he believed in, or was thisas——
Mr.Nichols. Not at all. He said—I didn't ask him, because I didn't know any lawyers—and I didn't know what he believed in, and I really wasn't concerned at that stage in the man's beliefs or what he had done or not done, actually, I just wanted—the man was in jail, and it occurred to me that it would be easy to overlook his rights at that time in view of the great emotion and somebody ought to determine whether or not he wanted a lawyer, and I decidedas president of the bar association maybe that was my job to do it, so, I went up there to see about it.
Mr.Stern. You say he said he wanted a lawyer who believed in his innocence?
Mr.Nichols. As much as he could.
Mr.Stern. As he could?
Mr.Nichols. Yes.
Mr.Stern. Did he elaborate?
Mr.Nichols. No; and I didn't ask him to elaborate on it because at that stage I didn't know to what extent I would, or wanted to, or should become embroiled in the facts. I wanted to know whether he needed a lawyer, and I didn't anticipate that I would be his lawyer, because I don't practice criminal law. They asked me, the newspapers did, and I honestly don't know what my answer would have been if they had asked me, "Well, will you represent him?"
We can debate about that now until doomsday. All I know is when I went up to talk to him I did not anticipate being the lawyer, because I don't practice criminal law, although, when I talked to Henry Wade he said, jokingly, I hope it was jokingly, and if the guy wants a lawyer he was going to request the judge that he appoint me and the president of the criminal bar association to represent him. I took that to be not a serious suggestion, because he knows that I don't practice criminal law, although, on reflection that probably would have been a good recommendation, since generally, I suppose, that if they appointed the president of the bar association they couldn't say that he was getting inferior representation. I am not bragging about that, but normally, I think that would be the normal reaction that if they appointed the president of the criminal bar association and the president of the local bar association then at least the man would be represented.
Mr.Stern. What is the practice in this jurisdiction regarding the appointment of counsel for indigents accused in criminal cases?
Mr.Nichols. Basically, I think that would follow the statutes which provide that where it comes to the attention of the court, that a man charged with a felony is not represented by an attorney that the court will appoint an attorney to represent him. The statute further provides that the attorney appointed to represent indigents be paid $25 a day for each day actually present at the trial of the case in court, and not to exceed $100 for the handling of an appeal. The usual procedure is, I believe, when it comes to the attention of the judge that an accused in jail is not represented by an attorney—I am talking about a felony case now—or a man, whether he is in jail or not, if he makes requests of the court to appoint him a lawyer, the judges of the criminal district court will, and do appoint lawyers to represent those people.
Mr.Stern. But, ordinarily, the appointment is handled by the judiciary?
Mr.Nichols. Yes.
Mr.Stern. And there is no, I take it, organized system of the bar association to represent indigents?
Mr.Nichols. Well, the criminal—there are two bar associations in Dallas. One is the criminal bar association, the other is the Dallas Bar Association, and you may belong to both, or neither, or either one. The criminal bar association did, last year, attempt to create and establish a fund to defray some investigative expenses of lawyers appointed to represent indigents. One of the programs which I had hoped to get really underway last year when I was president was to, and we had a committee working on it, was to provide more lawyers who would be willing to accept appointments to represent indigent defendants in the criminal cases. My idea was that if we had 100 or 200 lawyers who would say, "If I am requested to, or appointed by the court, I will represent these people." And it was my desire to have a large number of lawyers who would do that. The committee, unfortunately, bogged down and I got involved in other matters that I guess I considered more urgent to me, and didn't pursue that, but I did go down and talk to one of the judges last year just to see what the procedure was because I was interested, and the judges do appoint these people, I mean, do appoint attorneys to represent these people, and I talked to one of the judges and he said that they have never yet had an occasion where he needed a lawyer to represent a defendant that they haven't been able to get one. So, although some of these lawyers may do this more than others, asfar as I know, none of them have refused because it was too much of an imposition on them.
Mr.Stern. Your activities with respect to Oswald were unusual, though, and not pursuant to any established arrangement?
Mr.Nichols. That's right.
Mr.Stern. Something you did because of the nature of the case, and the questions that had been raised, and your own questions about his treatment?
Mr.Nichols. That's correct.
Mr.Stern. Did you, Mr. Nichols, make any notes of your activities on November 23, 1963, either at the time, or did you at any later time have occasion to prepare a written report of your activities?
Mr.Nichols. I did not make any notes at the time, and I didn't make any notes as such, subsequently, after Mr. Oswald was killed. And why, I don't know. It didn't occur to me to do so. Later Mr. Leon Jaworski, a Houston, Tex., attorney, called me and said that he was going to go to Miami, Fla., to the meeting of American Trial Lawyers, and had been asked to make a report of some sort on the Oswald matter and he asked me if I would write him a letter outlining what I had done in connection with interviewing Oswald, and attempting to see whether or not he wanted the Dallas Bar Association to provide counsel. I did, at that time, write a letter to Mr. Jaworski outlining as I recalled at that time exactly what transpired. Later the president of the Houston Bar Association, George Barrow, called me and said he was going to make a little talk in Houston, or write a little article in a publication and would like to know what I had done, and he knew about the letter I had sent to Jaworski, and wanted to know if I would send him a copy of my letter to him, or outline what I had done. I said it would be easier to give him a copy of the letter I had written to Leon, because I have it, so I sent him a copy and those are the only notes I made or statements that I have made in writing regarding this transaction except I did reproduce a copy of the letter to Mr. Jaworski, which I furnished to you.
Mr.Stern. I show you now a copy of the letter dated February 10, 1964, to Mr. Jaworski. Is that the copy you furnished to me?
Mr.Nichols. That is the copy I furnished to you, and the copy of the letter which I wrote to Mr. Jaworski on that date.
Mr.Stern. Would you initial each of the four pages of that photostatic copy, please, which we'll attach to your deposition as Exhibit A.
Thank you, sir. I believe that completes all the questions I have, Mr. Nichols. Thank you very much for coming in today.
Mr.Nichols. You certainly are welcome.
Mr.Stern. The court reporter will transcribe the deposition and we can furnish a copy of it to you for your review and signature, or the reporter can send the transcript directly to the Commission without your review, if you care towaive——
Mr.Nichols. I would like to have a copy of it, if I may do so, and I understand that it will be available at some expense, whatever it costs—I want to furnish it to the bar association for their records.
Mr.Stern. Fine.
The testimony of Forrest V. Sorrels was taken at 9:45 a.m., on May 7, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel for the President's Commission, and Mr. Fred B. Smith, Deputy General Counsel, U.S. Treasury Department were present.
Mr.Stern. Good morning, Mr. Sorrels.
Mr.Sorrels. Good morning, sir.
Mr.Stern. You understand that this is a continuation of your deposition, and that you are still under oath?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Yesterday you covered with Mr. Hubert the events that transpired from the time of the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswaldforward.1
1That portion of the deposition of Forrest V. Sorrels appears in another volume, and can be found by consulting the Index.
1That portion of the deposition of Forrest V. Sorrels appears in another volume, and can be found by consulting the Index.
I would like to go back now with you and cover the advance preparations for the President's trip, and come up to the time of the shooting of Oswald.
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Would you tell us first something of your experience in Presidential protection work through the course of your career in the Secret Service?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir; the first real assignment that I had in connection with Presidential work was in 1936, at Dallas, Tex., when President Roosevelt came there, and there was a parade downtown, motorcade out to the Cotton Bowl at Fair Park, where he made a talk, and then from there to the Adolphus Hotel for luncheon, and from the Adolphus Hotel to Lee Park, where he unveiled a monument, and then motored to Fort Worth, Tex., where there was a reception committee that met him on the lawn at the Texas Pacific Railroad Station, and then motored to a park in Fort Worth where he made a talk, and then continued on out to his son Elliott's ranch, west of Fort Worth.
During the time that President Roosevelt was in office, there were a number of times that he came to Fort Worth to visit his son.
One in particular that I recall was during the Second World War, when it was necessary that his travels be kept secret, and we were able to get him into his son's home and visit the airplane factory where the B-36 was manufactured there at Fort Worth, and get him out of town, and it was some 2 hours after that before any reporter ever found out and called our office inquiring about the President.
I have been to Washington on inaugurations two times that I can recall, the last one being at the time that President Kennedy was inaugurated.
I have been assigned on surveys in connection with inaugurations. I have been in Mexico on three different occasions when the President visited there, to Mexico City, Monterey, the last one being at Falcon Dam, when the dam was dedicated by the two Presidents of Mexico and the United States.
Mr.Stern. That was President Eisenhower?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Have you worked on visits by President Kennedy to Texas before this?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir; there were two visits that he made there—one a very short notice one of a matter of a few hours, when he came to Dallas to visit Mr. Rayburn in Baylor Hospital. Then when he came to Bonham, at the time Mr. Rayburn was buried—we had the assignments in connection with that.
Mr.Stern. These were informal trips, without publicity?
Mr.Sorrels. There was publicity. For example, the one that he came to the hospital, it wasn't announced until about 10 o'clock in the morning that he would be there.
He came there, I guess, a little over 2 or 3 hours after that—just a very quick trip, and not much time to make any preparation.
But, fortunately, everything went real good.
Mr.Stern. Mr. Sorrels, is there any significant difference that occurs to you in the protective arrangements, including the advance arrangements, for the November trip to Dallas by President Kennedy, and this trip you were telling us about that President Roosevelt made to Dallas, which involved a similar motorcade, in 1936, I believe you said?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. About the same advance preparation?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Protective organization?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Of course in the one that President Roosevelt came there, it was more functions and more places to go, including two cities.
Mr.Stern. Yes.But——
Mr.Sorrels. But the actual preparation was along the same lines.
Mr.Stern. You have been following a procedure and pattern as long as you have been doing this kind of work?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. It has been pretty much the same procedure?
Mr.Sorrels. That is correct, sir.
Mr.Stern. When you know that a President is coming to the area under your jurisdiction, what arrangements do you try to work out with the Police Department?
Mr.Sorrels. We will have a conference with the Chief of Police and his key personnel, usually when it is determined what the program is going to be.
In some instances where there has to be a meeting with the advance man from the White House detail, and for the local committee and the plans are not entirely solid, we have found that to bring the police in at that time is a little bit premature, because I have known of instances where we have had such meetings and the orders have been cut, and then they had to be changed, because of some change.
So, insofar as is possible, the meeting with the police is held at a time when we know pretty much what the program is going to be. And that procedure is followed in every instance.
In some instances, as I mentioned a moment ago there, when President Kennedy came to the Baylor Hospital, we didn't have very much time—it is something we have to work out very rapidly, and which was done in this instance with the Chief of Police and his key men, and the security was set up on a very, very short notice.
Mr.Stern. But normally, when you have the time, you like, as I understand it, to try to make yourarrangements——
Mr.Sorrels. Oh, yes; as far in advance as possible, because we realize that it is quite a task for them, because they have got many men involved, and many things that have to be taken into consideration, so that their orders can be properly drawn and the men dispatched to the proper places with a knowledge of what they are supposed to do.
Mr.Stern. But you do try to have the trip or the motorcade route, if there is to be a motorcade, pretty well worked out before you go to the police?
Mr.Sorrels. We usually have an idea what we would like to do, and we, of course, confer with the police because they may have in instances knowledge that we don't have about a certain area that it might not be appropriate to use or to go into.
Mr.Stern. Let's see if we can relate this now to President Kennedy's trip to Dallas in November.
When did you first hear that he was to make this trip, Mr. Sorrels?
Mr.Sorrels. On November 4, 1963, I received a long distance call from Special Agent in Charge Gerald A. Behn, of the White House Detail, stating that the President would probably visit Dallas about November 21, and that there had been a couple of buildings suggested, one of them being the Trade Mart, which he understood had about 60 entrances to it, and six catwalks over the area where the luncheon would be. And that the second choice that had been suggested then was the Women's Building at the State Fair Grounds. That was another place referred to as a trade center, which is actually Market Hall, which is across the street from the Trade Mart.
He instructed that I make a survey of these buildings and report back to him the conditions.
Mr.Stern. What did you do?
Mr.Sorrels. Accompanied by Special Agent Robert A. Stewart of my office, we went to the Trade Mart and looked the situation over there, and we did find that there were entrances coming into, you might call it, a courtyard where the luncheon was to have been—entrances coming into that area. And that there were two suspension bridges or catwalks on the second floor and on the third floor.
The outside entrances were no particular problem, but it did mean that it would take quite a bit of manpower to cover each one of the entrances thatcould come on to the balcony, you might say, that was entirely around on the second and the third floors.
We then went to the Market Hall, which was ideal insofar as security measures were concerned, in that there were only three outside entrances, and it was a huge hall, 107,000 square feet, with no columns, and you could seat about 20,000 people in there.
But there was another function going to be there at that time—the American Bottling Association was going to have, as I recall, an exhibit there. So that part was out.
We then went to Fair Park, where we made a survey of the Women's Building. It is a place where they have exhibits during the fair of all kinds of handiwork and things like that.
That building had about 45,000 square feet in it, and you could seat about 5,000 people in it. Securitywise it wasn't bad at all, because there were two end openings to the building, and there was actually an area where you could drive a car in there. But the building was not satisfactory for that type of function—the President of the United States coming there—because the ceilings were quite low, the air-conditioning equipment and everything was all exposed, there were many steel suspension supports throughout the area.
I then returned to my office and telephoned to Mr. Behn and informed him of my findings and told him that securitywise the Women's Building appeared to be preferable, but that it wasn't a very nice place to take the President.
Then——
Mr.Stern. What did you tell him about the Trade Mart?
Mr.Sorrels. I told him that there were many entrances there and that it would pose a problem manpowerwise to have the proper security there.
Mr.Stern. But did you indicate to him that this could be handled?
Mr.Sorrels. I don't recall whether I specifically said it could be or not. Definitely I was under the impression that if the place was chosen, we would take the necessary precautions and would have it properly manned.
Mr.Stern. You did not, in any event, tell him that you didn't think the Trade Mart would be a safe place?
Mr.Sorrels. No, I don't recall I told him it would not be a safe place, no, sir.
Mr.Stern. When did all this happen, Mr. Sorrels? Was it immediately after November 4?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, it was on November 4.
Mr.Stern. What was the next event in your advance preparations for the President's trip?
Mr.Sorrels. On November 13, Special Agent Winston G. Lawson, from the White House detail, and Mr. Jack Puterbaugh, had arrived at Dallas the evening before, and they came to my office, and we then went to the office of Mr. A. W. Cullum, President of the Chamber of Commerce, and we then went to the Trade Mart, and then to the Women's Building at the State Fairgrounds.
Mr.Stern. Mr. Sorrels, would you look at this Xerox copy of a two-page memorandum which appears to be signed by you, dated November 30, 1963, and carries the identifying number CO-2-34030. Can you identify that for me, please?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir; that is a memorandum which was prepared by me on November 30, 1963.
Mr.Stern. Did you make this memorandum in the ordinary course of your work, or were you specially instructed to make it?
Mr.Sorrels. As I recall it, I was instructed to make the report, but it is a procedure we ordinarily follow in making memorandums of such surveys, in confirmation of the phone calls.
Mr.Stern. Did you make it from notes that you had or from memory?
Mr.Sorrels. Both, sir.
Mr.Stern. Did you preserve the notes from which this was made, or destroy them?
Mr.Sorrels. No, I preserved them. I have them here—regarding the phone call and the notes that I made, regarding the survey at the Trade Mart and Women's Club.
Mr.Stern. May I see them, please?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. And this covers what you have just been telling us about in connection with the selection of the luncheon site for the President's visit?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Have you reviewed your memorandum of November 30 recently, Mr. Sorrels, in preparation for your testimony here?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Is there any respect in which you would like to change anything that is in the memorandum in view of your further consideration of the events described?
Mr.Sorrels. There is only one point there, about the date that we went by the police station.
Mr.Stern. Where is that covered in your memorandum?
Mr.Sorrels. That is in the last paragraph on the first page, where it is stated that on November 15, that we went to the office of the Chief of Police Curry.
I was under the impression that it was possibly the day before. I could be in error on that.
Mr.Stern. In any event, it was after Mr. Lawson had arrived, and that was on November 13?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes. I might state here that I had previously received two phone calls from Chief of Police Jesse Curry about the President's trip there. He was, of course, wanting to get the information as soon as possible, so that they could start their preparations. And he actually called me before Mr. Lawson got there, and he called me again after Mr. Lawson had gotten there, before we had gone to see him. And I explained to the chief that, on the first call, there would be someone from the White House detail coming to Dallas, and he requested that I get in touch with him just as soon as he got there.
On the second call, I told him that the man from the White House detail had arrived, but that we were still working on the plans, that it was not definitely known at that time where the luncheon was going to be, and that just as soon as it was determined where the luncheon was going to be, that we would then get in touch with him.
And it was at my suggestion to Mr. Lawson that we go by the Police Department on the first time, because I did not want the chief to feel that we were leaving him out in the dark, so to speak. And, for that reason, I suggested that we go by at the time we did—because, actually, we were still in the process of having these meetings to work out the final plans, and so forth.
Mr.Stern. That is the visit you refer to in this last paragraph on page 1?
Mr.Sorrels. That is right.
Mr.Stern. Your memorandum, Mr. Sorrels, gives me enough information on many of the points we are interested in, and I don't think we have to cover those, unless you would like to add something to them.
I would like to have you tell us about the selection of the motorcade route, what you had to do with that, and what you know of that.
Mr.Sorrels. After it was determined that there was going to be a motorcade, which was actually after Mr. Lawson got there, we had discussed the ways to get to the Trade Mart, and one of my questions was why don't we bring the President from the Texas Hotel to the Trade Mart by motorcade.
Mr.Stern. TexasHotel——
Mr.Sorrels. In Fort Worth—because I knew we would be able to pick the President up at the Texas Hotel in Fort Worth, and by motor get him to the Trade Mart in a shorter time than it would take him to go from the Texas Hotel to the Air Force Base, and go by plane to Love Field, and from Love Field go to the Trade Mart.
But that was ruled out because the previous plans were that he was to come by plane. And, of course, it would not have been practical to have brought him by motor from Fort Worth if there was going to be a downtown parade, because it would have meant coming in from the west side of the city, and we would have to go right back to the west side of the city to get to the Trade Mart, which would have meant a complete loop through the downtown section.
So when it was determined that there was going to be a downtown parade, Mr. Lawson, of course, wanted to know which would be the best route to take him to the Trade Mart from Love Field.
So Mr. Lawson and I drove what I thought would be the best route and the most direct route to the Trade Mart, bearing in mind that there would be a parade through the downtown section.
So we drove that route. And then later on we had the police go with us, and we went over the same route.
There were some discussions as to one section, whether it would be better to get onto what we have known as the Central Expressway there, and come off of it into Main Street. But that was ruled out because of safety measures, going into the expressway, and it would only be for such a short distance.
Another thing, too, they wanted as many people as possible to see him, that would not have any opportunity to see him on the Central Expressway.
So the route that we chose was from Love Field approach to Mockingbird Lane, left on Mockingbird Lane to Lemmon, down Lemmon to Turtle, right on Turtle Creek to Cedar Springs, left on Cedar Springs to Harwood, right from Harwood on Main Street, continue down Main Street to Houston Street, and then make a right-hand turn to Elm Street and then under the underpass to Stemmons Expressway, which was the most direct route from there and the most rapid route to the Trade Mart.
Mr.Stern. Excuse me—you said right-hand turn to Elm. I think you mean left.
Mr.Sorrels. A right-hand turn on Houston—I am sorry—and a left-hand turn on Elm.
Now, Elm is one way going west in the direction which we would have gone, but that street is not the street that they use for parades.
Main Street is right through the heart of the city. It is the best choice for parades. It gives an opportunity for more people—tall buildings on the side of the street—and it is almost invariably—every parade that is had is on Main Street. The one in 1936, when President Roosevelt was there, was the same route in reverse, so to speak.
We came up on Houston Street from Union Station, turned right on Main Street, right on Main Street, through the very heart of the town.
Mr.Stern. And went right past the School Book Depository then on Houston Street?
Mr.Sorrels. Just within 1 block of it, because we were coming, in that instance, from the Union Station, which is south of the Depository, to Main Street, right on Main Street, which is just 1 block from the Depository.
Mr.Stern. I take it, then, that once you were told there was to be a motorcade, and approximately 45 minutes was allotted to the motorcade, this route pretty well mapped itself, apart from the question whether to use the expressway or Harwood Street to get on to Main Street, is that right?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr.Stern. Why didn't you route the motorcade on Main Street under the triple overpass and on to Stemmons Freeway that way, instead of going to Houston and Elm?
Mr.Sorrels. Well, because you cannot get to the entrance to Stemmons Expressway on Main Street. The traffic is not routed that way. It is impractical.
On the other side of the first underpass there is a section built up to prevent cars from cutting in from Main Street to get over to Elm Street there. And if a person would go from—try to go from Main Street over to Stemmons Expressway, they would have to either hurdle this built-up place there, island, you might call it, or an extension of anisland——
Mr.Stern. Do you know what this built-up place is constructed of?
Mr.Sorrels. It is, I am sure, asphalt, or concrete—probably concrete. You would have to go down on Main Street, pass where you would ordinarily turn off, and then come back against traffic, which would be one way that way, and make a hairpin turn, and come back and get on there. It just is not done.
Mr.Stern. Could that reverse-S turn which you have described have been done conveniently with a car the size of the Presidential limousine?
Mr.Sorrels. No, it would not be convenient with an ordinary car, because itwould be a very sharp hairpin turn, and the place that is built there is there specifically to prevent anyone from getting over on the wrong way there.
Mr.Stern. When you laid out the motorcade route and drove over it—and I take it you drove over it severaltimes—
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Did you consider or discuss with Mr. Lawson the possibility of any danger to the President from the buildings along the route?
Mr.Sorrels.Well——
Mr.Stern. Did you think about any of the buildings as presenting any particular problem?
Mr.Sorrels. All buildings are a problem, as far as we are concerned. That, insofar as I have been concerned—and I am sure that every member of the Service, especially the Detail—that is always of concern to us. We always consider it a hazard. During the time that we were making this survey with the police, I made the remark that if someone wanted to get the President of the United States, he could do it with a high-powered rifle and a telescopic sight from some building or some hillside, because that has always been a concern to us, about the buildings.
Mr.Stern. Do you recall any further conversation, any further remarks in that conversation? Did anybody respond to that remark? Only if you recall.
Mr.Sorrels. I don't recall any particular response. Probably there was confirmation of that fact, because I think that anyone that has had any experience in security measures would have the same opinion. I don't recall anyone specifically making any comment like that.
Mr.Stern. But there was no suggestion that anything might be done to minimize that risk?
Mr.Sorrels. Nothing more than what we always do—try to scan the windows, and if we see something suspicious, take proper action.
Mr.Stern. When you went over the parade route with the police officials, did they confirm your view that this was the proper route to use?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, they did.
Mr.Stern. And there was no concern expressed by them that some other route might be better for some reason?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir; no, sir.
Mr.Stern. I would like you now, Mr. Sorrels, to tell us something of the Protective Research activities that took place in preparation for the President's visit to Dallas, that you recall.
Mr.Sorrels. At that time, we had no known Protective Research subjects that we were making periodic checks on in that area. Mr. Lawson informed me that he had checked with PRS, and that was confirmed.
However, bearing in mind the incidents that had taken place some time before with Mr. Stevenson, I had instructed Special Agent John Joe Howlett, to work with the Special Services Bureau of the Police Department, and I also conferred by phone with the chief of police at Denton, Tex., because some of those individuals who were involved in the Stevenson affair were going to college there.
Mr.Stern. What was the Stevenson affair, as far as you knew?
Mr.Sorrels. That was an instance where a number of people were at a theatre, as I recall it, theatre building, when Mr. Stevenson came out, and they were there with placards, and one woman is alleged to have hit him over the head with a placard, and another individual spat upon Mr. Stevenson, and also a police officer that took him into custody. And I did not want any such instance to happen when the President of the United States was there.
Mr.Stern. How soon had that happened before the President's visit?
Mr.Sorrels. I don't remember. It was probably some 60 days, maybe, before.
It was quite some time before.
But within recent time. And so Mr. Anderson, chief of police, informed me that he had an informant that was keeping in touch with the situation. I arranged with the Dallas Police Department for Lieutenant Revill to accompany Special Agent Howlett to Denton, and confer with the police there, and to also get photographs of these individuals.
When we were conferring with Mr. Felix McKnight, the managing editor of the Dallas Times Herald, I learned that—from him—that they had photographstaken at the Stevenson incident. So arrangements were made whereby Special Agent Howlett and the members of the Dallas Police Department, together with the informant in the case, would view those films, so that there could be pointed out to them individuals known to have been in the incident.
We had duplicate pictures made, and they were furnished to the special agent assigned to the Trade Mart, and were shown to the police officers that were assigned out in that area.
Mr.Stern. Did anything else occur in the field of Protective Research?
Mr.Sorrels. That is all I can recall at the present time.
Now, we had received, I think, some time before, a report from the FBI of an individual that might be considered a subject that we should check into. On October 30, Special Agent Vince Drain of the FBI reported a person, a member supposedly of the Ku Klux Klan in Denison, Tex., who might be suspected as a person that might try to cause some trouble if and when the President came to that area.
Lieutenant Revill got a photograph of that individual and he was checked on, and it was determined that he would not be in that area at that time.
Mr.Stern. Did the FBI report anything else to your office?
Mr.Sorrels. On the morning of November 21, as I recall it, Special Agent Hosty came to the office early in the morning with a number of handbills which bore a picture of the President of the United States, Mr. Kennedy, with the caption, "Wanted for Treason," with a number of numbered paragraphs supposedly outlining the reason.
Mr.Stern. Did your office make an investigation of that pamphlet?
Mr.Sorrels. I had previously received the information early in the morning from the sheriff's office that such handbills had been found on the streets. We contacted the police department, Lieutenant Revill, and they had a number of the handbills, and they were just found on the street. We could not from the police investigation or from our inquiries, find anyone that had seen anyone actually distributing them.
And we had no other leads on the handbills at that time.
Mr.Stern. Did the Dallas police give you any information of this nature—I am not referring specifically to the handbills, but to the Protective Research area, in advance of the President's trip?
Mr.Sorrels. Nothing more than what I believe I have outlined with Lieutenant Revill's department there.
Mr.Stern. Was there anything else that you recall involving any person or group that might present a danger to the President?
Mr.Sorrels. There was some individuals from Grand Prairie, Tex., that were mentioned to us by the police department that were known to be the type that might appear with handbills or placards—not handbills, but with placards in the area where the President might appear. And it developed that they did show up with placards at the Trade Mart, and they were taken into custody by the police department.
Mr.Stern. Did your office also take steps to assure that there would be no interference with free speech and lawful public demonstrations?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, we discussed with the police what action would be taken if people showed up with placards and attempted to interfere. And it was very definitely stated that if they had placards, just the mere fact that they had placards would not cause them to be picked up. But that we did not want them close enough to where the President would come or where he would be that these might be used to cause any harm to the President or the Vice President or members of their families.
There had recently been passed in Dallas an ordinance making it unlawful for any person to interfere or attempt to interfere with or intimidate another from freely entering premises where a private or public assembly was being held. We obtained copies of that ordinance and studied them to see what action the police would be able to take in the event that any instance arose whereby this ordinance might need to be enforced.
Mr.Stern. Now, you have told us, Mr. Sorrels, that you had no record of any PRS subject that you were checking on in your office, and that Lawson advised you that he had been told of no subject in your area in his advance check beforehe left Washington. Did this surprise you, that there were no individuals who had previously been identified as potential threats to the President in the territory of the Dallas office?
Mr.Sorrels. No. We had records of some subjects that were in institutions, but they were not out where they would be available.
Mr.Stern. Had there been in the past, during your tenure in the Dallas office, PRS subjects who were not in institutions?
Mr.Sorrels. Oh, yes.
Mr.Stern. But there were none at this particular time?
Mr.Sorrels. That is right.
Mr.Stern. When the incident involving Ambassador Stevenson had occurred, did you consider obtaining information on the participants and referring that information to the Protective Research Section in Washington for their files?
Mr.Sorrels. Not unless the President or the Vice President would come to that area, I had no intention doing that, because there was no actual threat, nor was the President of the United States involved in name or otherwise, insofar as I knew, in connection with the Stevenson affair.
Mr.Stern. How has the cooperation been with local authorities and local officers of Federal agencies in advising you of any potential danger to the President?
Mr.Sorrels. We have received reports of phone calls and threats or something like that from time to time. I think that all of the Federal offices that come into any information about a threat concerning the President of the United States have certainly in the past, to my recollection—I don't recall any specific instance—but I do know we have received such reports.
Mr.Stern. And from the local police authorities?
Mr.Sorrels. I can't recall any specific instance, but I am sure that in the past there have been instances where such a report has been reported to us.
Mr.Stern. Have you made known to the local authorities the kind of information in which you would be interested in this area?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes. We have participated in the training schools of the Dallas Police Department, and the Fort Worth Police Department, the auxiliary schools conducted by the sheriff's office and the Dallas Police Department.
We have participated in schools at Austin, Tex., given by the Department of Public Safety to investigative officers, to sheriffs-elect, deputy sheriffs and other sheriffs.
We have participated at Texas A & M College, at College Station, Tex., in their program of police training, where they have students that are members of various police departments, and other law enforcement organizations that attend their classes.
And in our course of instruction, we have discussed with them the protective measures that are required and taken in connection with the protection of the President of the United States, members of his family, and the Vice President.
Mr.Stern. How is your liaison with the local police and local offices of Federal agencies?
Mr.Sorrels. I consider it very, very good.
Mr.Stern. In all respects?
Mr.Sorrels. In all respects; yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Had you requested any local Federal agency, for example FBI or Internal Revenue, to participate in any way in the actual protection measures for the day of the President's visit?
Mr.Sorrels. I had offers from some of the other agencies, offering their services in case there was anything they could assist in.
The usual reply to that is that we are working with the local officials, police department, sheriff's department, Department of Public Safety, and we feel that we have sufficient manpower to take care of the program as we have in the past, and we have always suggested, in not only this instance but in other instances, that if any member of their department should hear of anything, or see anything unusual, that they felt we should know about, to please get in touch with us immediately, along those lines.
Mr.Stern. You felt, then, that the local police forces would supply all the outside assistance you needed for this visit?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir; the Dallas Police Department, in my opinion, has some very good leaders, career men who have been there for many years, and due to the fact I have been located in Dallas for many, many years I know these people personally, and I have never yet called upon the Dallas Police Department, the Sheriff's Office, or the Department of Public Safety, for any assistance that we have not gotten and gotten cheerfully and willingly.
For example, the time that Mr. Kennedy came there to the hospital to see Mr. Rayburn, is a case where I could tell nobody until just a matter of 2 or 3 hours before the President would get there, that he was coming, because the afternoon before, when I heard that he was coming, it was supposed to have been off the record, and there was not supposed to be any publicity about it.
The next morning I got a call and said it would be announced at 10 o'clock in the morning.
Well, immediately after that I called Chief Curry and he met me at the hospital with some of his key men, and the arrangements were set up in a matter of minutes, you might say, arrangements for the street to be blocked by the hospital, for sufficient detectives and men to be around the area, in various places in the hospital, and arrangements were made to have the police cars to accompany us from the airport down there.
I consider that our relationship with the local enforcement agencies, not only in the Dallas area, but throughout Texas, is as good as it can be any place in the country.
Mr.Stern. On the occasion of President Kennedy's visit, they supplied all the manpower you felt was necessary?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Were all the police that had various functions along the motorcade route full-time policemen, Mr. Sorrels?
Mr.Sorrels. There may have been, and probably was, some auxiliary police which may have been along the route that the parade traveled on. I am not sure about that.
They do have reserves that they call in. But those reserves, they are not armed—they are in uniform, but they are not armed.
And my records do not show that there were auxiliary police there. But I do know that they use them on occasion.
Mr.Stern. Mr. Smith, if you have any questions on this aspect of our interview, please feel free to ask them, because I am going to turn now to the actual events of the day. I believe that the other advance preparations are covered adequately for our purposes in Mr. Sorrel's memorandum, which I am about to introduce.
Mr.Smith. I have no questions.
Mr.Stern. Mr. Sorrels, I am going to mark this copy of your memorandum Exhibit 4, Deposition of F. V. Sorrels, May 7, 1964.
Would you initial each page, please?
(Brief recess.)
Mr.Stern. Mr. Sorrels, I would like to turn now to the morning of November 22 and get from you an account of what you observed as a passenger in the motorcade and thereafter.
In what car were you riding in the motorcade?
Mr.Sorrels. I was riding in what we call the lead car, which is the one immediately in front of the President's car.
Mr.Stern. What was your function in the lead car?
Mr.Sorrels. To be there with the special agent who had made the survey, and with the Chief of Police, and to observe the people and buildings as we drove along in the motorcade.
Mr.Stern. One of your responsibilities was to observe the buildings and the windows of the buildings?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Looking for what?
Mr.Sorrels. We always do that.
Mr.Stern. What would you be looking for?
Mr.Sorrels. Anything that to us might mean danger.
For example, if someone had an object that appeared to be a gun, or something like that—that, of course, would attract our attention. Or if someone appeared to have something they were fixing to throw or toss, we definitely would take cognizance of that immediately.
Mr.Stern. Do you recall remarking on anything you observed in the windows as you drove along Main Street?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, I do; there was a tremendous crowd on Main Street. The street was full of people. I made the remark "My God, look at the people. They are even hanging out the windows." Because I had observed many people in the windows of the buildings as we were coming along.
Mr.Stern. Now, as you made the right turn from Main Street onto Houston Street, did you observe anything about the windows of any building in your view?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, I did. Of course the Court House is on the right-hand side, and the windows there appeared to be closed.
Mr.Stern. To the right-hand side of Houston Street?
Mr.Sorrels. Of Houston Street; yes, sir.
The Book Depository, as we turned to the right on Houston Street, of course, was right directly in front of us, and just to the left side of the street. I saw that building, saw that there were some windows open, and that there were some people looking from the windows. I remember distinctly there were a couple of colored men that were in windows almost not quite to the center of the building, probably two floors down from the top. There may have been one or two other persons that I may have seen there. I don't recall any specific instance. But I did not see any activity—no one moving around or anything like that.
Mr.Stern. Do you think you had an opportunity to view all the windows of the building?
Mr.Sorrels. I did, yes; because it was right in front.
Mr.Stern. Do you recall seeing anything on the side of the building to your right, any of the windows on that side of the building—the far right side of the building?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes. There was at least one or two windows that were open in that section over there. I do not recall seeing anyone in any of those windows. I do not, of course, remember seeing any object or anything like that in the windows such as a rifle or anything pointing out the windows. There was no activity, no one moving around that I saw at all.
Mr.Stern. But you believe you could observe all of the windows on the side of the building facing you?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes. In other words, it is just right down at the end of the street.
Mr.Stern. Now, the car you were riding in was a closed car, was it not?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir; it was a Ford sedan.
Mr.Stern. And you were in the rear seat?
Mr.Sorrels. Right rear.
Mr.Stern. Did the roof of the car obscure your view at all?
Mr.Sorrels. Oh, yes.
Mr.Stern. But you were still able to observe the whole building?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes. Of course I was sitting close to—as far over to the right as I could get, and I could look out the window. I could not, of course, look up and see any building straight up, or over to my left I would not have been able to see anything that was any higher than the view of the window on the left.
Mr.Stern. You didn't have your head actually out of the window?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir; I did not. But the glass was down in the window.
Mr.Stern. As you turned into Houston Street, Mr. Sorrels, can you estimate how far in front of the President's car the lead car was?
Mr.Sorrels. Oh, probably about 30 feet—fairly close.
Mr.Stern. As you approached the Book Depository Building along Houston Street, did your ability to see all of the building diminish because of the angle of your vision and the roof of the car coming in the way?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, it would have. The closer you got to it, looking out from the front part of the car, naturally your vision would diminish as you approach.
But we turned to the left on Main Street, and at that time just glancing by, I could see the side of the building from the window where I was sitting in the car.
Mr.Stern. I believe you mean left onto Elm Street.
Mr.Sorrels. Elm Street—I am sorry.
Mr.Stern. So that when you turned from Houston left onto Elm, you again had a look at the building?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir; you see, as you make the turn—of course, as we pulled on down Elm Street, after having made the turn, it is actually more than a right angle turn. It bends even more to the left. And you can, of course, glance up like that as you go by. But as you go on by the building, the building is getting away from you, and unless you would turn clear on around and look out to the right, you would not be able to see the building after you got a little distance down Elm Street there.
Mr.Stern. Did you turn to your right and look at the building again as your car negotiated this turn onto Elm Street?
Mr.Sorrels. As the car was making the turn, yes, I was looking at the crowd, and just glancing up at the building as we made the turn.
Mr.Stern. Do you believe that you saw all of the windows on the building at that time?
Mr.Sorrels. As we were making the turn, yes, I would say that I saw all the windows in the building—just looked at the windows as we made the turn. But then I was looking at the people along the side of Elm Street, along each side.
Mr.Stern. Can you estimate, going back to the first turn into Houston Street, how long an opportunity you had to observe the building, in time?
Mr.Sorrels. On Houston Street?
Mr.Stern. Yes. As you turned right off Main onto Houston Street, the building first came into view.
Mr.Sorrels. That is right.
Mr.Stern. How long did you see the building before the roof obscured your view?
Mr.Sorrels. Of course I wasn't looking at it all the time. As we came to the right on Houston Street, of course, the building loomed up in front, and I just looked at it, and looking at the people along the side, and as we were making the turn I was just glancing like that, and saw the building.
I saw nothing unusual or any activity at that time. And then after making the turn, I did not look at the building any more, or in that direction, until after the first shot.
Mr.Stern. Are you saying that you only glanced at the building then, because you were looking at other things?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes. I looked at the building. I didn't study it intently and look at that and nothing else around there. I looked at the building, didn't see any activity, and looked at the people as we had been doing during the entire motorcade route.
Mr.Stern. Would this have been a matter of several seconds or longer than that, or can you estimate?
Mr.Sorrels. I think it would be a matter of seconds, yes.
Mr.Stern. It is rather a large building, with a number of windows along that side, is it not?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes; it is a good-sized building. I believe it is seven stories high.
Mr.Stern. And you think you had enough time, though, to see all the windows, or is it a general impression.
Mr.Sorrels. Just a general impression.
In other words, I did not specifically study any specific window or anything like that. It is just like you glance out and see the building there, you would see some open windows, and maybe some people in them—that is all. There wasn't any activity or anything like that that I saw.
Mr.Stern. Now, as you turned left from Houston onto Elm and looked again at the building, did you have as long a look this time as you had before?
Mr.Sorrels. No; because he was making a left-hand turn, and, of course, getting in front of the building, I just glanced out—just as we made the turn, just in a general way, you are looking at the crowd and the building, just a glance at it at that time.
Mr.Stern. And at this point you are traveling directly in front of the building?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. I imagine it would have been difficult to look up and see the whole building.
Mr.Sorrels. No; I don't mean to say that after we made the turn I looked up and saw the whole building. But just as we made the turn I looked towards the building and saw people in front, and just glanced up—I would not say that I saw the entire building at all at that time.
Mr.Stern. And it is your testimony that you saw nothing unusual, that you observed no one there with a weapon?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. Or any other implement?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. That several windows were open on the side of the building at different places?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. And that the only people you observed were at one particular location?
Mr.Sorrels. I recall distinctly about two floors down seeing two colored men there at the windows. I do not recall seeing—specifically seeing anyone else. There may have been some one other person over there. But I do not recall specifically seeing anyone on the right-hand side of the building, where the window was open. I do not recall that.
Mr.Stern. And the location of the two Negro men that you observed was in what part of the building?
Mr.Sorrels. I would say that it was about, oh, maybe a third of the distance from the right to the left, maybe not quite that far.
Mr.Stern. And about two stories down?
Mr.Sorrels. From the top; yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. And when did you observe these Negro men, when you first turned into Houston, or when you turned from Houston onto Elm?
Mr.Sorrels. I observed them first, when I first looked at the building I saw them, and I don't recall that I actually saw them again after that. When we were making the turn I glanced, and as you say, I would not have been able to see, I don't think all the way to the top of the building, unless I put my head almost out the window.
But I saw people out in front, and I would not say that I saw the people as I was making the turn or subsequent to that time.
Mr.Stern. When you looked at the crowd along Houston and Elm, did you notice anything unusual?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir; I did not.
Mr.Stern. You have turned now onto Elm, Mr. Sorrels.
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Why don't you tell us now in your own words and in as much detail as you remember exactly what you recall transpired next.
Mr.Sorrels. The crowd had begun to thin out after we made the turn on Elm Street there. As a matter of explanation, Elm Street goes at a downgrade—in other words, as I said a moment ago, it makes more than a left-hand—oblique left-hand turn. It curves back—I mean it is more of a sharp angle than a right angle. And then it swings down a little curve to go into the underpass.
There is a sidewalk and terrace that goes up to the right, increasing in height as you approach the underpass from the corner at Elm and Houston Streets.
We were running late, because the President arrived at Love Field late.
Mr. Lawson was particularly concerned, as we all are, in keeping the schedule.
I looked back to see how close the President's car was in making the turn, because we had begun to pick up speed after we made the left-hand turn.
Then I looked back to the right.
Mr.Stern. How close was the President's car?
Mr.Sorrels. At that time we were probably, oh, I would say, several car lengths ahead of it, because we had begun to pick up speed.
Mr.Stern. You think somewhat further than you estimated before?
Mr.Sorrels. As we came around Houston, yes, sir; came around on Houston, yes, because we had begun to pick up speed there. And I remember Mr. Lawson turned around and said, "I wish he would come on, because we are late now," or words to that effect.
And I expressed to him, I said, "Oh, we are not going to be very late."
And I looked at my watch, and it was just about 12:30.
And I said, "We are not going to be over 5 minutes late," and the Chief of Police, I believe, spoke up and said, "We are about 5 minutes away now."
And so they called on the radio to the Trade Mart that we were 5 minutes away.
And it seemed like almost instantly after that, the first shot was heard.
Mr.Stern. Now, did you recognize it at the time as a shot?
Mr.Sorrels. I felt it was, because it was too sharp for a backfire of an automobile. And, to me, it appeared a little bit too loud for a firecracker.
I just said, "What's that?" And turned around to look up on this terrace part there, because the sound sounded like it came from the back and up in that direction.
At that time, I did not look back up to the building, because it was way back in the back.