Mr.Adamcik. He just sat there and stared straight ahead.
Mr.Belin. Didn't talk at all?
Mr.Adamcik. No.
Mr.Belin. Did he ask for an attorney while you were there?
Mr.Adamcik. Not in my presence.
Mr.Belin. Did you ask him any questions about Officer Tippit's murder?
Mr.Adamcik. No; I don't believe that I did.
Mr.Belin. Anyone else there that did?
Mr.Adamcik. I didn't hear anybody.
Mr.Belin. All right, then what happened?
Mr.Adamcik. Well, I just stayed at the office until about 2 o'clock in the morning.
Mr.Belin. Ever see Oswald again?
Mr.Adamcik. I seen him being led out of the office from the interview, I believe. I didn't go down there.
Mr.Belin. What interview?
Mr.Adamcik. I think they had—I don't know whether it was an interview or some kind of press conference down in the assembly room.
Mr.Belin. When would that have been?
Mr.Adamcik. It would have been about midnight.
Mr.Belin. Do you know if Oswald requested it or if someone else did?
Mr.Adamcik. I don't recall.
Mr.Belin. Then what happened?
Mr.Adamcik. I stayed in the office after Captain Fritz and the other men came back. He told us to go on home and come back the next morning about 10 o'clock.
Mr.Belin. Then what happened?
Mr.Adamcik. Well, I went home, and about 10 or shortly before 10, I came in, and Captain Fritz asked Detectives Rose and Stovall; and Detective Moore—at this time he was a regular partner of Rose and Stovall—asked me, since I was there the previous day, to go along back to Mrs. Paine's house for a little more complete search.
Mr.Belin. Did you have a search warrant at this time?
Mr.Adamcik. Yes; we stopped by and got a search warrant from Judge Joe B. Brown, Jr., over in Oak Cliff, and came by his house and picked up the search warrant.
Mr.Belin. What did you do when you got to the house?
Mr.Adamcik. We got out to the house. I didn't have a search warrant. One of the other detectives did. They told us to come on in, and they were there.
I remember at the time we came in, that they were going grocery shopping, and they left and just told us to look at anything we wanted to.
Mr.Belin. The previous day had you taken anything out of the house?
Mr.Adamcik. I didn't.
Mr.Belin. Did any of the officers take anything out of the house?
Mr.Adamcik. Yes; some of the other officers did.
Mr.Belin. What did they take?
Mr.Adamcik. I don't recall. I believe they took some camera equipment. It might have been a movie camera or projector. I didn't take anything. I know they took some items.
Mr.Belin. Anything else that you remember?
Mr.Adamcik. No; there weren't too many items the first day.
Mr.Belin. What about the second day?
Mr.Adamcik. The second day we made a pretty complete search. We went mainly in the garage. We had also an Irving police officer. It was, I think, Detective McCabe from the Irving police department. And we went through the house and garage.
Mr.Belin. What did you take with you?
Mr.Adamcik. Well, we picked up—I got a list of it, also, which we turned over to the FBI, but we picked up items such as letters and pictures and oh, just a whole bunch of items.
Mr.Belin. Did you find the picture of Oswald with the rifle?
Mr.Adamcik. I didn't find it. It was found while I was back in the garage.
Mr.Belin. That was found in the garage?
Mr.Adamcik. Right.
Mr.Belin. Any comments about that at all?
Mr.Adamcik. Naturally, when somebody found it, we all looked at it, and everybody said, "That looks like the rifle that was used in the assassination."
Mr.Belin. Was Mrs. Paine or Mrs. Oswald there?
Mr.Adamcik. No. At that time they weren't there. They were grocery shopping.
Mr.Belin. Did you show the picture to them later on?
Mr.Adamcik. The picture was shown to them, but it wasn't there at the scene, and it was shown at the office, I understand.
Mr.Belin. You weren't there when it was done?
Mr.Adamcik. No; I wasn't.
Mr.Belin. Anything else?
Mr.Adamcik. Well, no other than—I didn't even begin to tell you what all we found. It was books and pictures and they found some of his stuff from the Marine Corps when he was in the Marine Corps, and a lot of Russian, I thinkthey were books on the Russian language, and some vaccination certificates and stuff like that.
A lot of stuff was written in Russian, and we didn't have any idea what it said. Even the letters, a lot of them were written in Russian.
Mr.Belin. Anything else?
Mr.Adamcik. No; I don't recall anything pertaining to the search at all. I know that everything we—at the time, that we felt it was important, as far as investigation of the murder of the President and Officer Tippit was concerned, we took with us. There might have been some things we didn't take, but at the time the search was conducted, it was conducted more or less for each person at the same time, for the murder.
Mr.Belin. Was an inventory made of the items taken?
Mr.Adamcik. There was. Yes; there was, definitely.
Mr.Belin. You put that on file with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Adamcik. There was an inventory made, and there was receipts for all the property, and it is itemized. Everything is itemized.
Mr.Belin. Anything else that you can think of?
Mr.Adamcik. No; I know the search took a pretty good while. We didn't get back to the office until about 4 p.m., so I assume we got there probably around 11 or 11:30, and we stayed there 3 or 4 hours.
Mr.Belin. Anything else at all that you can think of that is important?
Mr.Adamcik. I don't know who found it. It was either Stovall or Rose.
Mr.Belin. Officer Adamcik, I will hand you what appears to be a document from the Dallas Police Department entitled, "Property clerk's invoice or receipt." It is an inventory. It commences with page No. 11177G through 11193G, and ask you to state if this appears to be a copy of the inventory that you picked up out on your search there?
Mr.Adamcik. Let me see if I can see all these. Yes; it is.
Mr.Belin. All right, rather than offer it in this deposition, I believe you said that—who was the senior officer out there among you, or wasn't there any?
Mr.Adamcik. Yes; there was. I was not the senior officer conducting the search. Probably Detective Rose, although I believe Detective Moore might have been previous, but since Detective Rose was there the previous day, he was spokesman for the group.
Mr.Belin. Did Stovall work more with you or with Rose?
Mr.Adamcik. With Rose.
Mr.Belin. I believe Mr. Ball is about to take the deposition of R. S. Stovall, and I think what we will do is give this inventory to Mr. Ball and let him introduce it in that deposition.
Mr.Adamcik. That first day I couldn't tell you anything because I was out of the house trying to take care of the kids.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything else you can think of, officer, that we haven't discussed here?
Mr.Adamcik. No. The only thing is, after we finished conducting the search and got back to the office, I remember the previous day we didn't take an affidavit from Michael Paine, so Detective Moore and myself went back to Irving—should be around 5 o'clock, and picked up Mr. Paine and brought him back to the office for somebody to take an affidavit from him.
Mr.Belin. Did he say anything, that you remember, when you were taking the affidavit, about the rifle or the blanket?
Mr.Adamcik. He did. I was present when he said it, and it is in the affidavit, about seeing the blanket in which the rifle was wrapped in, or he assumed it was the blanket in which the rifle was wrapped.
Mr.Belin. Did he know that it contained a rifle?
Mr.Adamcik. I don't think so. But he said he had seen it several times previous to the assassination.
Mr.Belin. Did he say anything about why he came to his wife's residence that day of the assassination?
Mr.Adamcik. Yes, sir; he did. I brought that out in the affidavit, and I remember something about him saying when he heard that the President got killed, well, knowing where it occurred and where Lee Oswald worked, andknowing his background, well, he said that Oswald's name came into his mind immediately.
Mr.Belin. Did he say it came into his mind?
Mr.Adamcik. He said, knowing about his background and all—I remember just about what he said—that he knew that he would be asked to be considered a suspect, and—or that we would consider him a suspect, something. He didn't say who, but the way the situation was.
Mr.Belin. Did he say what it was in his background that would make him considered to be a suspect?
Mr.Adamcik. It is in the affidavit, and I can't remember what he said. Whether he said it was because he was in Russia at one time, or something about him being a Russian citizen, or whether it was because for some other reason.
Anyway, it is in the affidavit. I can't think exactly what he said. It is worded pretty well, because he signed the affidavit and it is in his words. I can look at it.
Mr.Belin. Here is an affidavit that appears to be signed by Michael Paine. He says that he felt concern for his wife, is that correct?
Mr.Adamcik. Right; he did say that.
Mr.Belin. He says that he saw a heavy pipelike object wrapped in a blanket, tied with a string. Is that what he said?
Mr.Adamcik. That is what he said.
Mr.Belin. He said, "I picked it up to get it out of the way of the powersaw."
Mr.Adamcik. That is what he said.
Mr.Belin. Did he say he had a lot of tools, and he mentioned he picked up this object and put it out of the way of his powersaw?
Mr.Adamcik. That's right.
Mr.Belin. And it says in the affidavit he thought it was tenting equipment. Is that what he said?
Mr.Adamcik. That's right.
Mr.Belin. He says later in the affidavit that he heard the President was shot while he was at work, is that correct?
Mr.Adamcik. That's correct.
Mr.Belin. He said he heard the shots were from the Texas School Book Depository, and he said that he knew that Oswald worked there, and immediately thought of him, and wondered if he might have shot the President?
Mr.Adamcik. That is what he said.
Mr.Belin. He says he wondered if he should call the FBI. Is that what he says in the affidavit?
Mr.Adamcik. That's right, exactly.
Mr.Belin. He says he thought it unlikely that he shot the President. Did he say that he thought it was unlikely that Oswald shot the President?
Mr.Adamcik. Yes; he said that. And then he explained why he didn't call the FBI. He said he figured that—he did mention that the FBI knew about Oswald and that they would probably have contacted him and would consider him a suspect without him having to call them.
Mr.Belin. Did he say why the FBI knew about Oswald?
Mr.Adamcik. No; he didn't.
Mr.Belin. Anything else you can think of, sir?
Mr.Adamcik. No; I believe that is it. After we picked him up and took this affidavit just shortly after, I went on home and that was the end of it, until Sunday. Sunday I was off, and everything happened down there, luckily.
Mr.Belin. Luckily you were off?
Mr.Adamcik. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Sir; we want to thank you for your cooperation for coming down here. You have an opportunity to either let the deposition go directly to Washington, or you can come back and read it and sign it. You can waive the signing, or come back and read it and sign it, whatever you want to do.
Mr.Adamcik. About how long would it be before it is ready?
Mr.Belin. Several days. You want to sign, or just let her send it on to us?
Mr.Adamcik. I would kind of like to look at it.
Mr.Belin. All right, this lady will get in touch with you and you can take a look at it.
Mr.Adamcik. Okay.
The testimony of Henry M. Moore was taken at 11 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Belin. Would you stand and raise your right hand and I will swear you here.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Moore. I do.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Moore, would you please state your name for the reporter.
Mr.Moore. Henry M. Moore.
Mr.Belin. What is your occupation, Mr. Moore?
Mr.Moore. Police officer, city of Dallas.
Mr.Belin. You were raised in Texas?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. How old are you?
Mr.Moore. I am 39.
Mr.Belin. Married?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Family?
Mr.Moore. Five children.
Mr.Belin. Your wife has her hands full with them?
Mr.Moore. Sure does.
Mr.Belin. Did you go to high school here in Dallas?
Mr.Moore. No; Ennis, Ennis High School.
Mr.Belin. Where is that located?
Mr.Moore. That is south of Dallas bout 35 miles.
Mr.Belin. Were you a graduate from high school?
Mr.Moore. No, I didn't graduate.
Mr.Belin. How far did you get through high school?
Mr.Moore. Eighth.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Moore. Went in the Service.
Mr.Belin. Into the Armed Services?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Army or Navy?
Mr.Moore. Paratroopers; Army.
Mr.Belin. How long were you in the Paratroopers?
Mr.Moore. Three years.
Mr.Belin. When did you get out?
Mr.Moore. January 11, 1946.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember that day?
Mr.Moore. Very well.
Mr.Belin. Honorably discharged?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do after that?
Mr.Moore. Oh, I fooled around on the farm about 3 years, and then I came to Dallas.
Mr.Belin. Had you worked on the farm before you went into the Service?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Between the time you got out of school and the time you went into the Service?
Mr.Moore. No.
Mr.Belin. You went direct from school to the Service?
Mr.Moore. Shortly afterward.
Mr.Belin. You were on the farm for a while, and then what did you do?
Mr.Moore. Came to Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Belin. What year was that?
Mr.Moore. January 31, 1949.
Mr.Belin. And you have been there ever since?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What is your position there right now?
Mr.Moore. Detective.
Mr.Belin. Were you on duty on November 22 around noon?
Mr.Moore. No.
Mr.Belin. When were you to report to work that day?
Mr.Moore. Four; 4:00 p.m.
Mr.Belin. When did you report for work that day?
Mr.Moore. Shortly after the assassination, soon as I could get to town.
Mr.Belin. How shortly after?
Mr.Moore. 1 or 1:30, somewhere around there. Maybe 2.
Mr.Belin. You reported down at the main police station?
Mr.Moore. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. What did you do when you got there?
Mr.Moore. Well, I helped answer telephones mostly for, oh, I don't know, until the time I went out to North Beckley to search Oswald's room.
Mr.Belin. At 1026 North Beckley?
Mr.Moore. Yes; I believe that is right.
Mr.Belin. About when was that?
Mr.Moore. I am going to guess around 6 or so in the evening. The notes may show a little closer time.
Mr.Belin. Did you have a search warrant?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Do you know who got it?
Mr.Moore. The Judge issued it. Judge David Johnston.
Mr.Belin. Did he go with you there, too?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Who else went?
Mr.Moore. District Attorney Bill Alexander and Detective F. M. Turner.
Mr.Belin. You went to that address, and did the landlady—let me ask you this. You got to the door at 1026 North Beckley?
Mr.Moore. Yes; we met some other officers there. They were already inside.
Mr.Belin. At that time they found out that Lee Harvey Oswald lived there?
Mr.Moore. I believe they had; yes.
Mr.Belin. What did you do when you got there?
Mr.Moore. We searched his room.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Moore. Brought everything in the room to the city hall.
Mr.Belin. You made a list of what you found there?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Anything in particular that you found there?
Mr.Moore. Yes; one map, city of Dallas map, and it had several marks located on it.
Mr.Belin. Anything else?
Mr.Moore. Personal effects, clothing, radio, and gun scabbard.
Mr.Belin. What do you mean by that?
Mr.Moore. A holster.
Mr.Belin. What kind of gun?
Mr.Moore. .38 pistol, I believe it was.
Mr.Belin. Did you find the gun itself, or just the holster?
Mr.Moore. No; just the holster. I believe they had recovered the gun from him earlier in the day.
Mr.Belin. Anything else there that you can establish?
Mr.Moore. I believe I mentioned his clothing, personal effects?
Mr.Belin. Some letters?
Mr.Moore. Yes; I'm sure there were some letters and papers.
Mr.Belin. Pamphlets?
Mr.Moore. I am not sure. I believe there was some. I am not sure, though.
Mr.Belin. I am going to hand you a copy which appears to be a photostatic copy of a property clerk's invoice or receipt. By the way, how many times did you go to 1026 North Beckley?
Mr.Moore. I only went one time.
Mr.Belin. Did anyone else search the room next day, or do you know?
Mr.Moore. I don't know. I don't remember. I can't see any point. We brought everything that was in the room.
Mr.Belin. You brought everything there? I am handing you pages marked on this police department, "City of Dallas property clerk's invoice or receipt No. 11194G through 11199G." Does this appear to be a copy of the inventory here?
Mr.Moore. Yes; I believe it is.
Mr.Belin. We will call that Moore Deposition Exhibit No. 1. I might state for the record that this appears to be—what was the last number I gave there—it looks like 11200G, and I might state for the record that these appear also in the Dallas police report file which is known in the President's Commission files as document 81B, pages 280–286, inclusive.
I note then on this list it states that the search warrant is dated November 23, 1963, which is 1 day later than the date that you made the search. Do you have any explanation for that?
Mr.Moore. No; I wouldn't.
Mr.Belin. Did you see the original search warrant at all, or not?
Mr.Moore. I don't know.
Mr.Belin. I also notice there appears to be included in these articles a driver's handbook of the State of Texas. Do you remember whether or not that was there?
Mr.Moore. It would be hard to say any one personal item of that nature.
Mr.Belin. In other words, you couldn't remember anything specifically there except you do know that you put down on the list, or participated in putting down on the list everything that was picked up there?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything on this list, to the best of your knowledge, that was not picked up out at 1026 North Beckley?
Mr.Moore. No.
Mr.Belin. I noticed that there is an envelope which is marked "Envelope containing receipt for post office box 6225, Dallas, Tex., dated November 11, 1963, for the period ending December 31, 1963." Do you have any independent recollection of that being there?
Mr.Moore. No.
Mr.Belin. By that, you mean you cannot specifically recall now except you do know that someone put it down on the list as being obtained from there?
Mr.Moore. Right.
Mr.Belin. I also note that one of the items appears to be a World Health Organization vaccination card, bearing the name of Lee Oswald, with the name of the vaccinator as A. J. Hidell, post office box 30016, New Orleans, La., with the date stamped June 8, 1963.
Do you remember anything like that, one of those health cards?
Mr.Moore. Not specifically no.
Mr.Belin. And it says that there is a passport there. Do you remember that at all?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. You remember specifically the passport?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Then there is an application for a Texas driver's license, which appears as No. 450. Do you remember that at all?
Mr.Moore. Yes; I do, since I have read the list. I remember the driver's license application.
Mr.Belin. I hand you Commission Exhibit 426, and ask you to state if you know what that is?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What is that?
Mr.Moore. Application for Texas driver's license.
Mr.Belin. You picked it up there or someone with you picked it up on that day that you searched the residence at Beckley?
Mr.Moore. Yes; you find my initials on the back of it, I believe.
Mr.Belin. Your initials, it says, HMM, 11-12-63. Those are your initials?
Mr.Moore. Yes; and date.
Mr.Belin. Do you know who FMT is, or are those initials there?
Mr.Moore. I believe that will be F. M. Turner.
Mr.Belin. F. M. Turner?
Mr.Moore. I believe. That is the only one I could think of it would be.
Mr.Belin. All right. About how long did you stay out there?
Mr.Moore. Hour and a half, possibly.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Moore. We drove back to the city hall.
Mr.Belin. Now I assume then that you went through the property and marked it, and what have you. This took a little bit of time?
Mr.Moore. Yes; it did.
Mr.Belin. Anything else on that day that has anything else to do with the assassination of the President or the Tippit murder that you can think of offhand?
Mr.Moore. No.
Mr.Belin. The next day you reported for work about when?
Mr.Moore. As soon after the Oswald shooting in the basement, as soon as I could get there. I live out of town.
Mr.Belin. Wait, that is when Oswald was shot. I am not talking about Sunday. I am talking about Saturday. When did you search the Beckley premises? On Friday, Saturday, or Sunday?
Mr.Moore. Saturday. No; we searched it on Friday. Irving on Saturday.
Mr.Belin. Irving on Saturday. When did you get to work on Saturday?
Mr.Moore. I believe I came in around 10 that morning.
Mr.Belin. All right, you worked in the office for a while?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember what you did offhand?
Mr.Moore. Answered the phone.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Moore. I went out with Stovall and Rose and Adamcik to Irving later in the day to search the residence at Irving.
Mr.Belin. Would that be 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving?
Mr.Moore. Right.
Mr.Belin. Had a search warrant for that?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. You found several items there?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Made a list of those similar to this other list?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Anything else? Do you remember any conversation you had out there with Mrs. Paine or Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, or anyone else?
Mr.Moore. When we arrived, they were preparing to leave and did leave. We had an Irving officer with us.
Mr.Belin. Did they tell you to go ahead?
Mr.Moore. Yes, they did; just go ahead and help ourselves. They said they would be back later, and I am not sure that they even returned before we left.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember anything particularly you found out there that stands out in your mind?
Mr.Moore. Rose found the picture of Oswald holding the rifle.
Mr.Belin. Did Rose show it to you out there?
Mr.Moore. Yes, he did; at the time he found it.
Mr.Belin. Were you near him when he found it.
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. How far away was he from you?
Mr.Moore. This was a one-car garage, and it would have to be close. Four men searching in that garage. I would say a matter of 3 or 4 feet.
Mr.Belin. What did Rose say to you when he found it?
Mr.Moore. He said, "Look at this." Of course we all looked and commented on it.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Moore. Well, we continued our search, and after we had completed it, we again brought everything that we had picked up to our office.
Mr.Belin. You made another list of it?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Anything else that you did that day?
Mr.Moore. No.
Mr.Belin. Did you bring in Michael Paine for taking an affidavit from him, do you remember?
Mr.Moore. Yes, I did. Mr. Adamcik and I went out and brought—we went back to the residence and brought him in later that day.
Mr.Belin. You talked to him for a while?
Mr.Moore. Yes, I did.
Mr.Belin. Then you took the affidavit?
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Then the next day was the 24th of November, Sunday. Were you on duty Sunday morning?
Mr.Moore. No.
Mr.Belin. When did you get to work on Sunday?
Mr.Moore. Approximately 1 o'clock.
Mr.Belin. What did you do when you got there?
Mr.Moore. I am sure I worked around the office until the time that Rose and I went to Ruby's apartment.
Mr.Belin. Did you have a search warrant for that?
Mr.Moore. Yes. We went to Judge Joe B. Brown's residence and got the search warrant.
Mr.Belin. Is it pretty much standard procedure at the Dallas Police Department to have a search warrant whenever you go to a person's premises?
Mr.Moore. More or less.
Mr.Belin. If you don't have a search warrant, what is your procedure when you come to the door? Just what do you do?
Mr.Moore. If we do not have a search warrant?
Mr.Belin. Yes.
Mr.Moore. Well, it would all depend on why we were going, really. If we got a search warrant, if we were looking for stolen property, or things of that nature, we would most probably have one. If we did not have one, if people invited us in, it would be legal to be in the house anyway. And if they don't invite us in, or tell us we can't enter, then in all probability we will get a search warrant and go in anyway.
Mr.Belin. Anything else you can think of that is important in any way that bears on this investigation?
Mr.Moore. No.
Mr.Belin. Officer Moore, do we call you officer or detective or mister?
Mr.Moore. Either way.
Mr.Belin. You have an opportunity, if you like, to come back and read this deposition and sign it before it comes to us in Washington, or you can just waive signing and let the court reporter send it to us directly in Washington. Do you have any preference or not?
Mr.Moore. No.
Mr.Belin. You want to sign, or do you want to waive signing it?
Mr.Moore. What is the procedure?
Mr.Belin. Well, if you sign it, you come back and read it and then you sign it if it is accurate; otherwise, you leave it and we assume the court reporter is accurate, and she will send it to us as the record of your testimony here.
Mr.Moore. I believe I would rather read it. No reflection on the reporter.
Mr.Belin. Well, she is too nice a reporter. If you would like to read it, why you certainly have that right, and the reporter will be getting in touch with you. Do we have your address, or can she contact you at the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Moore. Yes; she can.
Mr.Belin. You can come in and read it and she will send it to us.
Mr.Moore. Yes.
Mr.Belin. We thank you very much for your splendid cooperation. Good-bye.
The testimony of F. M. Turner was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Belin. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Turner. I do.
Mr.Belin. Would you please state your name.
Mr.Turner. F. M. Turner.
Mr.Belin. Where do you live, Mr. Turner?
Mr.Turner. I live at Garland, Tex.
Mr.Belin. That is a suburb of Dallas?
Mr.Turner. Right.
Mr.Belin. What is your occupation?
Mr.Turner. Detective of the Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Belin. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Turner. About 13 years this September.
Mr.Belin. How old are you?
Mr.Turner. Thirty-five.
Mr.Belin. Married?
Mr.Turner. Right.
Mr.Belin. Family?
Mr.Turner. Right.
Mr.Belin. Where were you born?
Mr.Turner. Murphy, Tex.
Mr.Belin. Spent all your life in Texas?
Mr.Turner. Except for a couple of years in the service.
Mr.Belin. Was that after you got out of high school?
Mr.Turner. Yes.
Mr.Belin. How far did you go in high school?
Mr.Turner. Finished.
Mr.Belin. You finished high school?
Mr.Turner. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Turner. Went in the service.
Mr.Belin. Was that high school in Murphy?
Mr.Turner. No; it was Plano, Tex.
Mr.Belin. Then you went in the service?
Mr.Turner. Right.
Mr.Belin. In the Army or Navy?
Mr.Turner. Coast Guard.
Mr.Belin. Coast Guard?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. What did you do there?
Mr.Turner. I was a storekeeper.
Mr.Belin. Did you have a discharge from the Coast Guard, too?
Mr.Turner. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Did you get an honorable discharge?
Mr.Turner. Right.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Turner. When I first came out, I went to work as a carpenter's helper uparound Plano there. I worked at that a short while. And then I worked for the Plano Lumber Yard in Richardson, Tex., and I worked there until I came to work for the police department.
Mr.Belin. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?
Mr.Turner. I was.
Mr.Belin. Did you have anything to do with the motorcade?
Mr.Turner. I did; yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. What was your position?
Mr.Turner. I was riding in the pilot car of the motorcade, possibly 3 minutes in front of the motorcade.
Mr.Belin. Who else was with your car?
Mr.Turner. Chief Lumpkin from our department.
Mr.Belin. Is he an assistant chief of police?
Mr.Turner. Deputy chief of police.
Mr.Belin. Anyone else?
Mr.Turner. My partner, Detective B. L. Senkel, and an Army major whose name I do not remember.
Mr.Belin. You went to Love Field to meet the President?
Mr.Turner. In the car also was a Secret Service man, whose name I do not remember. Yes, sir; I did go to Love Field to meet the President.
Mr.Belin. You saw the plane arrive?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. You got prepared to leave a little bit ahead of time of the motorcade?
Mr.Turner. We did. We drove to a gate on the outward edge of Love Field and waited until we got some radio contact from the chief. They were about ready to leave, and we had a running start.
Mr.Belin. How many channels did you have on your radio?
Mr.Turner. Two.
Mr.Belin. Which channel were you on?
Mr.Turner. Channel 2.
Mr.Belin. Was the entire motorcade on channel 2?
Mr.Turner. The entire motorcade was on channel 2, and I believe there was a dispatcher at the central station on channel 2, that relayed some of the changes, and some of the messages were car to car, back and forth.
Mr.Belin. Other police business would be on channel 1, at the time, or also on channel 2?
Mr.Turner. Other police business was on channel 1.
Mr.Belin. All right, you went through the city ahead of the actual motorcade, is that correct?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Did you keep track of where the motorcade was?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir; by radio.
Mr.Belin. By radio did you keep track of how fast the motorcade was going?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir; by radio.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember whether or not there was any radio conversation as to how fast the motorcade was going at the time it got to Main and Houston?
Mr.Turner. I don't recall.
Mr.Belin. Who did you keep your primary radio contact with?
Mr.Turner. Chief Curry.
Mr.Belin. Now where were you when you first heard any signs of anything out of the ordinary?
Mr.Turner. We were on Stemmons Freeway. I don't recall approximately, at the Oak Lawn exit, or somewhere right in that vicinity.
Mr.Belin. What did you hear on the police radio?
Mr.Turner. Well, I heard some conversation, either sounded like Curry's voice or Sheriff Decker's voice, who was riding in the car with him. I believe it said, sounded like Sheriff Decker said notify all men to get over there and cover off the area around this building there until some investigators could get there.
Mr.Belin. Did you return to the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Turner. Well, yes; but I don't believe he mentioned that building. I believe he just mentioned the overpass over the Elm Street. He said cover off that area around the overpass, I believe.
Mr.Belin. Did you see the President's car come by your car?
Mr.Turner. Out on the expressway, I did; yes.
Mr.Belin. Where was the President's car headed?
Mr.Turner. Parkland Hospital.
Mr.Belin. What did you do then?
Mr.Turner. We fell in behind it in our car.
Mr.Belin. You went over to Parkland Hospital?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. What did you do when you got there?
Mr.Turner. We went up by the exit there and helped sort of control the crowd, and I never did go in. They unloaded the President's car.
Mr.Belin. Did you watch them unload the President's car?
Mr.Turner. Off and on, I mean, I was more or less mingling in the crowd, trying to restrain the crowd where they could have room to work.
Mr.Belin. Did you see how they unloaded Governor Connally?
Mr.Turner. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Belin. Did you see how they unloaded the President?
Mr.Turner. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Turner. We got back in Chief Lumpkin's car along with him, and we come back to the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr.Belin. When did you get back there, approximately?
Mr.Turner. In relation to time, I don't know. But it was just about a short while. I would say, I don't know, 10 or 15 minutes after it happened. We just started out there in a matter of minutes, and we drove code 3, with the sirens on, and we came back down here.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Turner. Chief Lumpkin told me to search out a caboose to a train that was parked at the rear of the building. I went in and searched this boxcar out, and come out of there, and by that time they were already in the building, I supposed. I went in the building and that is when I ran across this Mr. Campbell and Truly.
Mr.Belin. Now let me ask you this. Did you find anything in the boxcar?
Mr.Turner. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Did you see any railroad employee over there?
Mr.Turner. At the boxcar?
Mr.Belin. Or in this area, did you talk to anybody?
Mr.Turner. No sir; this was a caboose of a boxcar, that is what it was, sitting there.
Mr.Belin. Did you talk to anyone over there that indicated where they heard the shots came from?
Mr.Turner. Talked to these people from the School Book Depository.
Mr.Belin. Prior to the time you got to the School Book Depository, did you talk to anyone?
Mr.Turner. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. All right, now, you say you saw Mr. Campbell and Mr. Truly, and who else?
Mr.Turner. Mr. Molina.
Mr.Belin. They all worked there?
Mr.Turner. Yes; they said they did.
Mr.Belin. Where did you talk to them?
Mr.Turner. Down on the first floor of this building, back sort of a warehouse like.
Mr.Belin. Did they say where they heard the shots come from?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir; they did.
Mr.Belin. What did they say?
Mr.Turner. Well, I believe they said they thought they all came from west of the building at that time.
Mr.Belin. Did they say where they were when they heard the shots, when the shots came?
Mr.Turner. Well, according to my notes, Mr. Truly stated that he was at the front of the store watching the parade in the front of the building, and Mr. Campbell had walked across the street, and this Joe Molina, I don't have on here where he was. He just said he worked in the warehouse.
Mr.Belin. That is all your notes show on him?
Mr.Turner. Said they all thought the sound came from west of their building.
Mr.Belin. Can I take a look at that book of yours? It might cut down the questioning?
Mr.Turner. Yes; this is more or less some notes.
Mr.Belin. You are handing me kind of a spiral notebook that you have. I notice here, well, let me ask you this. Then what did you do after that?
Mr.Turner. About that time there was a deputy sheriff, Mr. Sweatt, come over and told me they sent a witness over to their office, which was located diagonally across the street, and said this witness might be able to shed light on the description of a suspect, so I went to the sheriff's office and I stayed there for quite some spell talking to witnesses.
Mr.Belin. Who did you talk to?
Mr.Turner. Several of them. I would have to look up their names.
Mr.Belin. Well, looking at your index in your little notebook, I see you have something about an Arnold Rowland there?
Mr.Turner. Yes; I talked to Rowland.
Mr.Belin. What do your notes say you talked to Rowland about? What did Rowland say, according to your notes?
Mr.Turner. Said he was standing. I don't know whether he was with his wife or his girl friend, I don't know what connection, they were standing on Houston between Main and Elm, approximately 15 minutes before the President arrived. They saw a man standing back in the background of an open window two floors from the top.
Mr.Belin. Two floors from the top?
Mr.Turner. That is what he said. The man appeared to have a rifle with scope on it in his hand and he noticed another thing that he said about this, he said the man was standing on the west side of the building.
Mr.Belin. The west side of the south side of the building?
Mr.Turner. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What else did he say?
Mr.Turner. He thought it was a security man, is the reason that he made no issue of it. I am unable to give a description except a white man, and that he heard three shots.
Mr.Belin. Did he say how much of the man he saw, or not; do you remember?
Mr.Turner. No, sir; I don't remember any further. There was a court reporter there and so forth, and they took an affidavit of him at the time.
Mr.Belin. Did he say anything about seeing any other man in the window in any other windows there?
Mr.Turner. Not that I recall.
Mr.Belin. All right, did you interview any Ronald Fischer or a Robert Edwards?
Mr.Turner. I got a Ronald Fischer and Bob Edwards.
Mr.Belin. What do you have about them?
Mr.Turner. They said they saw a white man in his twenties standing on the fifth floor of the Book Building in the east window. Had on an open-necked sports shirt and had sandy-colored hair. And said the hair was longer than a crewcut.
Mr.Belin. What else did they say?
Mr.Turner. That is all the notes I have. Like I said, there was an affidavit taken from them at the time, too.
Mr.Belin. Now this is with regards to the—do you have this under Fischer or under Edwards, or both?
Mr.Turner. Under both. They were more or less together at the time.
Mr.Belin. Did they think they could identify the man?
Mr.Turner. Thought they said they could identify him.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever take pictures out for either one of them?
Mr.Turner. Yes; I have.
Mr.Belin. Which one?
Mr.Turner. The one that lives in Mesquite, whichever one that is.
Mr.Belin. That is Ronald Fischer?
Mr.Turner. Whatever that is.
Mr.Belin. What did Fischer say about the pictures?
Mr.Turner. He said it could be the man he saw, but he couldn't remember positive.
Mr.Belin. Did he give you any more identification of the man?
Mr.Turner. None other than that.
Mr.Belin. You were at the sheriff's office then and took part in the taking of various affidavits there?
Mr.Turner. I questioned witnesses. I didn't take any of the affidavits, but they did send court reporters and secretaries up and affidavits was taken from them.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember, you yourself, questioning a Howard Leslie Brennan or anyone questioning a Brennan?
Mr.Turner. Brennan, let me check. I've got a Charles F. Brehan [spelling] B-r-e-h-a-n, that I talked to.
Mr.Belin. No; that is not the one.
Mr.Turner. Probably I didn't. That was probably the name I was thinking of when you said Brennan.
Mr.Belin. All right, while you were there, did you learn that an officer had been shot?
Mr.Turner. I did; yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Then what happened?
Mr.Turner. Well, I stayed down there for quite some time talking to these witnesses, and then I went back over to the School Book Depository Building to check and see if my partner was there.
Mr. Senkel hadn't seen him in quite a while and didn't locate him. There was several officers over there, Special Service, still had the building secured, and you want this mentioned that coat business in there?
Mr.Belin. Yes.
Mr.Turner. The coat has no bearing on the case.
Mr.Belin. You mean in your statement I have with reference to a coat being found on Industrial Street?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir; as far as I know, that still has no bearing in the case, but it was placed in the property room.
Mr.Belin. You just found a coat somewhere?
Mr.Turner. Well, a Mr. Kaminski from the police department handed me a coat when I went back over to the building, with a note of who had turned it into him, where it was found, and he had no idea whether it had any bearing on the case or not.
Mr.Belin. Have you investigated?
Mr.Turner. As far as I know, the coat does not have any bearing on the case.
Mr.Belin. All right, go ahead.
Mr.Turner. After I left there, I went back to the sheriff's office and I talked to the one lieutenant in our office then and found out that Mr. Senkel had gone back to our office, so he in turn, he told me I might as well come on up there, looked like things, about all I could do down there.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Turner. I went to the city hall.
Mr.Belin. What did you do there?
Mr.Turner. Well, when I walked in there, one of the lieutenants was talking about finding a justice of the peace to obtain a search warrant, and I told him that I just left the sheriff's office and one of the J.P.'s was down there when I left, David Johnston, and so he said, "Well, see if you can get ahold of him and get a warrant for this address on North Beckley and carry the warrant over there."
Mr.Belin. Would that have been 1026 North Beckley?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir; I am sure it is. I have to look in the paper here a minute; 1026 North Beckley.
Mr.Belin. All right, what did you do there?
Mr.Turner. Well, Detective Moore was in the office. He and I got a car and drove down by the, back down to the sheriff's office, and when we got there, Judge Johnston and one of the assistant district attorneys, Bill Alexander, was standing on the front steps waiting for us, because someone got ahold of him by phone and told them I was on the way.