Mr.Belin. Did Oswald ask to have a sweater or some clothes brought in?
Mr.Holmes. Yes. Well, I don't know that he asked. I will take that back. I don't know that he asked. All I know, they handed it in and said, "Do you want any of those clothes, or do you want to change your clothes?"
And he said, "I will take one of the sweaters." They gave him the wrong sweater and he didn't like that and he asked for the other. And they uncuffed him and he slipped his arm in and they handcuffed him back up, and that is the only change. It was a black slipover kind ofV-neck sweater.
Then they walked him out of the office and I stayed in the office with the two Secret Service men.
Mr.Belin. So you didn't accompany Oswald when they left?
Mr.Holmes. No.
Mr.Belin. When did you first learn that Oswald had been shot?
Mr.Holmes. I told Sorrels, I said, "I have my car down the street. Let's go down to my office, because it is directly across the reflecting pool from this School Depository Building and from the sheriff's office and entrance where they will take him in. Let's go down to my office and we can look at it from my window and have a better eye view in case anything happens." And he said, "Well, I have my car down there too, and I will need to have it to get back to my office, so I will just take my own car."
So, I immediately went downstairs and got in my car and proceeded to my office, which probably took me ten minutes.
When I got to the sidewalk of the terminal annex I parked my car and walked right in the door. One of the inspectors who was watching this box, they still had the surveillance on the box—said, "Well, they got Oswald now."
I said, "What are you talking about?"
"Well, they have shot Oswald."
They had a radio sitting there going. I said, "That is not right. That is misinformation, because it hasn't been 5 or 7 or 8 minutes that I left him in his presence and he was very much alive then." And just then they kept talking on the radio, and I got to listening, and sure enough, they shot him.
Mr.Belin. Where was your car parked? Was it parked in the basement where they were going to transfer Oswald?
Mr.Holmes. No; out on the street.
Mr.Belin. Now, did you ever talk to Captain Fritz or any police officer about Oswald getting shot?
Mr.Holmes. I haven't talked or discussed this in any way.
Mr.Belin. Not since then with any other police officer?
Mr.Holmes. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Was there anything said in that interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald pertaining to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, that you remember?
Mr.Holmes. When I was discussing with him about rental application for Box No. 6225 at the terminal annex, I asked him if he had shown that anyone else was entitled to get mail in that box and he said, "No."
I said, "Who did you show as your—what did you show as your business?
And he said, "I didn't show anything."
I said, "Well, your box rental application here says, 'Fair Play for Cuba Committee and the American Civil Liberties Union'."
Well, he said, "Maybe that is right, I did put them on there."
I said, "Did they, anyone, who paid for the box?"
He said, "I paid for it out of my own personal money."
"Did you rent it in the name of these organizations?"
And he said, "No."
He said, "I don't know why I put it on." He wouldn't talk about it.
Mr.Belin. Did you talk about whether he believed in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?
Mr.Holmes. No; we didn't get into that. We did discuss the organizationof it in New Orleans, and I got the impression that Captain Fritz was trying to get out of him the fact that he was the head man or the president of it, and he kept evading that and would be real evasive. But finally he admitted that he was, he said, "Actually, it was a loosely organized thing and we had no officers, but probably you could call me the secretary of it because I did collect money." In other words, "Secretary-Treasurer, because I did try to collect a little money to get literature and work with."
Then I asked—oh, he mentioned, too, he said, "In New York they have a well organized or a better organization."
Well, I asked him, or one of us asked him about, "Is that why you came to Dallas, to organize a cell of this organization in Dallas?" And he said, "No, not at all."
"Did you work on it or intend to organize here in Dallas?
"No," he said, "I didn't. I was too busy trying to get a job." That is about all he said about it.
Mr.Belin. Did anyone say anything about Oswald saying anything about his leaving the Texas School Book Depository after the shooting?
Mr.Holmes. He said, as I remember, actually, in answer to questions there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the Negro employees asked him if he would like to sit and each lunch with him, and he said, "Yes, but I can't go right now." He said, "You go and take the elevator on down." No, he said, "You go ahead, but send the elevator back up."
He didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on. Nobody seemed to ask him.
You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation. So I didn't interrupt too much, but he said, "Send the elevator back up to me."
Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."
And he wouldn't tell what happened then.
Mr.Belin. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr.Holmes. He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion—he kindof——
Mr.Belin. Did he gesture with his hands, do you remember?
Mr.Holmes. He talked with his hands all the time. He was handcuffed, but he was quiet—well, he was not what you call a stoic phlegmatic person. He is very definite with his talk and his eyes and his head, and he goes like that, you see.
Mr.Belin. Did Oswald say anything about seeing a man with a crewcut in front of the building as he was about to leave it? Do you remember anything about that?
Mr.Holmes. No.
Mr.Belin. You don't remember anything about that. Did he say anything about telling a man about going to a pay phone in the building?
Mr.Holmes. Policeman rushed—I take it back—I don't know whether he said a policeman or not—a man came rushing by and said, "Where's your telephone?"
And the man showed him some kind of credential and I don't know that he identified the credential, so he might not have been a police officer, and said I am so and so, and shoved something at me which I didn't look at and said, "Where is the telephone?"
And I said, "Right there," and just pointed in to the phone, and I went on out.
Mr.Belin. Did Oswald say why he left the building?
Mr.Holmes. No; other than just said he talked about this commotion and went out to see what it was about.
Mr.Belin. Did Oswald say how he got home, if he did get home?
Mr.Holmes. They didn't—we didn't go into that. I just assumed that theyhad covered all that. Nobody asked him about from the minute he walked out the door as to what happened to him, except somebody asked him about the shooting of Tippit, and he said, "I don't know what you are talking about."
He said, "The only thing that I am in here for is because I popped a policeman in the nose in a threatre on Jefferson Avenue, which I readily admit I did, because I was protecting myself."
Mr.Belin. Because he was what?
Mr.Holmes. "Protecting myself."
Mr.Belin. Now, I want you now to take a look for the first time during our interview here at Holmes Deposition Exhibit 4, and thus far you have been testifying just from memory, is that correct?
Mr.Holmes. Yes; sir.
Mr.Belin. Now, I notice that it starts out, that it is in an informal memorandum that you put together, and then the second paragraph you have the general impression that Oswald appeared confused or in doubt.
I wonder if you would read that second paragraph and see if there is anything that you remember to elaborate on at this time.
Mr.Holmes. Read it aloud or to myself?
Mr.Belin. No; to yourself, and see if there is anything you can remember to elaborate.
Mr.Holmes. The only part I have not covered would be the impression that I received that he had disciplined his mind and his reflexes to a point where I doubt if he would even have been a good subject to a polygraph test, a lie detector.
Mr.Belin. Anything else you would care to elaborate?
Mr.Holmes. I believe not.
Mr.Belin. Well, I wonder then if you would take a look at the second paragraph that begins "P.O. Boxes."
That is really the third paragraph on the page.
Mr.Holmes. No; I think I have, if I remember that pretty well.
Mr.Belin. All right, you take a look at the next paragraph, which is the last paragraph on the first page.
Mr.Holmes. I believe there would be nothing to elaborate or change on it.
Mr.Belin. Turn to page 2 on the first paragraph of the next page.
Mr.Holmes. The only thing there that I haven't covered would be that the reason these various post office boxes wherever he went was that it was much easier to have his mail reach him through post office forwarding orders than it was to try to get somebody over in Russia to change the address on a newspaper.
Mr.Belin. By the way, did he talk about anything at all about his life in Russia?
Mr.Holmes. He mentioned only that he met his wife in Minsk. That was her home town.
Mr.Belin. Anything else?
Mr.Holmes. It seemed like it was a dance. He met her at a dance, he told us.
Mr.Belin. Anything else?
Mr.Holmes. That he took these two local newspapers for her benefit, because it was local news to her and that was the reason he was getting those papers. She enjoyed reading about the home folks.
Mr.Belin. Anything else about Russia? Did he ever say anything about going to Mexico? Was that ever covered?
Mr.Holmes. Yes. To the extent that mostly about—well—he didn't spend, "Where did you get the money?" He didn't have much money and he said it didn't cost much money. He did say that where he stayed it cost $26 some odd, small ridiculous amount to eat, and another ridiculous small amount to stay all night, and that he went to the Mexican Embassy to try to get this permission to go to Russia by Cuba, but most of the talks that he wanted to talk about was how he got by with a little amount.
They said, "Well, who furnished you the money to go to Mexico?"
"Well, it didn't take much money." And it was along that angle, was the conversation.
Mr.Belin. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?
Mr.Holmes. Oh, yes.
Mr.Belin. Did he say what community in Mexico he went to?
Mr.Holmes. Mexico City.
Mr.Belin. Did he say what he did while he was there?
Mr.Holmes. He went to the Mexican consulate, I guess.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Belin. Now, with regard to this Mexican trip, did he say who he saw in Mexico?
Mr.Holmes. Only that he went to the Mexican consulate or Embassy or something and wanted to get permission, or whatever it took to get to Cuba. They refused him and he became angry and he said he burst out of there, and I don't know. I don't recall now why he went into the business about how mad it made him.
He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American. This was the Mexican—he wanted to go to Cuba.
Then he went to the Russian Embassy and he said, because he said then he wanted to go to Russia by way of Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba and try that angle and they refused and said, "Come back in 30 days," or something like that. And, he went out of there angry and disgusted.
Mr.Belin. Did he go to the Cuban Embassy, did he say or not?
Mr.Holmes. He may have gone there first, but the best of my recollection, it might have been Cuban and then the Russian, wherever he went at first, he wanted to get to Cuba, and then he went to the Russian to go by Cuba.
Mr.Belin. Did he say why he wanted to go to Cuba?
Mr.Holmes. No.
Mr.Belin. Did—this wasn't reported in your interview in the memorandum that you wrote?
Mr.Holmes. No.
Mr.Belin. Is this something that you think you might have picked up from just reading the papers, or is this something you remember hearing?
Mr.Holmes. That is what he said in there.
Mr.Belin. All right; I want to go back to page 2 of this memorandum.
I believe we went through the first paragraph on page 2 when you said that there wasn't anything you cared to add there other than what is reported on this Holmes Deposition Exhibit 4?
Mr.Holmes. Except what he mentioned about it was easier about the forwarding orders of newspapers. Otherwise, no change.
Mr.Belin. Now, what about the next paragraph on page 2?
Mr.Holmes. I think I have covered that.
Mr.Belin. All right, then. The next paragraph on page 2, which is the third and last paragraph on the page.
Mr.Holmes. I believe I have mentioned the fact that he was evasive about whether he was actually a member of the American Civil Liberties Union. In this statement I have mentioned that he was evasive about it.
Mr.Belin. Does that statement cover everything, or is there anything you care to add to that statement?
Mr.Holmes. I can't think of anything of any particular importance there.
Mr.Belin. Then turn to page 3, the first paragraph. Is there anything you can or care to add to that paragraph that isn't covered right here?
Mr.Holmes. All right as is.
Mr.Belin. What about the second paragraph on page 3?
Mr.Holmes. I have covered that.
Mr.Belin. What about the third paragraph which begins with "Marine Corps Service."
Mr.Holmes. I don't believe that I discussed that yet.
Mr.Belin. You haven't discussed it, but is there anything you care to add other than what is written on there?
Mr.Holmes. No.
Mr.Belin. Did he indicate anything else about Governor Connally?
Mr.Holmes. No. I have covered that in there. In fact, I got the distinct impression that he showed no flareup, no animosity when Connally's name was mentioned. He simply considered him—somebody was shuffling the papersaround, and he had no particular animosity toward him. I remember that distinctly.
Mr.Belin. Did he seem to have any animosity toward President Kennedy?
Mr.Holmes. No.
Mr.Belin. Now, take a look at the first paragraph on page 3 and read that and see if there is anything you care to add to that?
Mr.Holmes. No; I believe not.
Mr.Belin. What about the fifth paragraph on the page?
Mr.Holmes. I haven't discussed that.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything you would care to add to that?
Mr.Holmes. No, sir. That is as he stated it.
Mr.Belin. What about the last paragraph on page 3?
Mr.Holmes. That is as I recall it at the time.
Mr.Belin. Now, in the last paragraph on page 3, it says that when asked why he went to visit his wife on Thursday night, whereas he normally visited her on the weekends, and he said on that particular weekend there was going to be a party for children. They were having a house full of children and he didn't want to be around at such a time. And, therefore, he made the weekly visit on Thursday night?
Mr.Holmes. That's right.
Mr.Belin. Did anyone question him about curtain rods, that you remember?
Mr.Holmes. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What was that about curtain rods?
Mr.Holmes. Asked him if he brought a sack out when he got in the car with this young fellow that hauled him and he said, "Yes."
"What was in the sack?"
"Well, my lunch."
"What size sack did you have?"
He said, "Oh, I don't know what size sack. You don't always get a sack that fits your sandwiches. It might be a big sack."
"Was it a long sack?"
"Well, it could have been."
"What did you do with it?"
"Carried it in my lap."
"You didn't put it over in the back seat?"
"No." He said he wouldn't have done that.
"Well, someone said the fellow that hauled you said you had a long package which you said was curtain rods you were taking to somebody at work and you laid it over on the back seat."
He said, "Well, they was just mistaken. That must have been some other time he picked me up."
That is all he said about it.
Mr.Belin. Were there any other questions asked about curtain rods.
Mr.Holmes. I don't recall.
Mr.Belin. All right, I turn to the top of page 4, which is the next paragraph, and I see that you have this recorded in your memorandum. You have this all recorded here except you don't mention the sentence about the curtain rods?
Mr.Holmes. So that has been elaborated on in that paragraph.
Mr.Belin. All right, anything else you care to elaborate on that first paragraph on page 4?
Mr.Holmes. I believe not.
Mr.Belin. All right, the second paragraph on page 4 pertaining to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting. Would you care to elaborate on that?
Mr.Holmes. I believe it is just about as I have stated. No elaboration.
Mr.Belin. Then the third paragraph on page 4 was about an A. J. Hidell identification card. Would you care to read that and see if there is anything on that?
Mr.Holmes. I believe not.
Mr.Belin. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr.Holmes. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr.Belin. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr.Holmes. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr.Belin. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr.Holmes. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.
Mr.Belin. Did he say anything about a Coca Cola or anything like that, if you remember?
Mr.Holmes. Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca Cola, standing there by the Coca Cola machine drinking a Coca Cola.
Mr.Belin. Anything else?
Mr.Holmes. Nothing more than what I have already told you on it.
Mr.Belin. Anything else that you care to add to the third paragraph on page 4?
Mr.Holmes. I believe not.
Mr.Belin. Now, here in the fourth paragraph, which is the last paragraph of page 4, the last paragraph of your memorandum, anything else you care to add to that?
Mr.Holmes. I believe not.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything else that we haven't covered that you think might be helpful here and you think we ought to talk about, Mr. Holmes? Have you found now in your records the money order number that was involved in the purchase of the rifle?
Mr.Holmes. The money order number that was found in Washington and matched the original money order was number 2-202-130-462, issued at the main office in Dallas, Tex., on March 12, 1963, in the amount of $21.45.
Mr.Belin. Do you have any information on the money order for the pistol or how the pistol was paid for, or was there a money order?
Mr.Holmes. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Now, Mr. Holmes, I wonder if you could try and think if there is anything else that you remember Oswald saying about where he was during the period prior or shortly prior to, and then at the time of the assassination?
Mr.Holmes. Nothing more than I have already said. If you want me to repeat that?
Mr.Belin. Go ahead and repeat it.
Mr.Holmes. See if I say it the same way?
Mr.Belin. Yes.
Mr.Holmes. He said when lunchtime came he was working in one of the upper floors with a Negro.
The Negro said, "Come on and let's eat lunch together."
Apparently both of them having a sack lunch. And he said, "You go ahead, send the elevator back up to me and I will come down just as soon as I am finished."
And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."
And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."
Mr.Belin. Anything else?
Mr.Holmes. I believe not.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Holmes, when we first met, we sat down and I practically started taking testimony right away, is that correct?
Mr.Holmes. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything in the short conversation we had before we started taking testimony about this matter that we haven't discussed here on the record?
Mr.Holmes. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. For the record, I would like to offer as a part of this deposition Holmes Exhibits 1, 2, 3, and 4, and in addition, I don't know for the record, but I would like to offer—at some of the depositions we have had delays, but will you have copies made, madam reporter?
And one final thing, you have the right, if you want, to come back and read the deposition and sign, or else you let it go to us without signing or coming back without reading it. Do you want to waive it or come back?
Mr.Holmes. I will waive it.
Mr.Belin. One other thing. I better mark this as Holmes Deposition, Exhibit 5.
Mr.Holmes. I want to save that.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Holmes, I hand you Holmes Deposition Exhibit 5 and ask you to state if you will what this is.
Mr.Holmes. It is a circular-type sheet simulating a wanted circular as put out by the post office department or the FBI showing a profile view. That is two separate views of President Kennedy.
Mr.Belin. The one that says "Wanted for Treason"?
Mr.Holmes. Underneath his picture in large type is "Wanted for Treason."
Mr.Belin. How did you get ahold of this document, or what is the fact involved?
Mr.Holmes. This was handed to me by one of the postal supervisors who brought it to my office stating that it had been brought in by one of the carriers that found it in a collection box on his route.
Mr.Belin. On what day, do you know, offhand, in relation to the assassination?
Mr.Holmes. He brought that in the afternoon of the assassination, November 22.
Mr.Belin. Do you know how many of these were passed out?
Mr.Holmes. No; except that it came from various sources. They were being passed out at neighborhood shopping centers, and numerous of them were brought in. This supervisor said that they had dozens of them down there, that it had come in by the carrier.
Mr.Belin. I believe you also said that—is there anything else in regards to Holmes Deposition Exhibit 5 you care to add?
Mr.Holmes. I believe not.
Mr.Belin. Now, you showed us your deposition Exhibit 1, this application for a post office box dated November 1, 1963, of Lee Harvey Oswald, and you said this was at the terminal annex?
Mr.Holmes. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. How can you tell?
Mr.Holmes. Because I recognized it as being the application, and also—I mean the application that I obtained at the terminal annex, and also the 6,000 designates that series of boxes at the terminal annex.
Mr.Belin. And you also showed me an application for box 5475, dated November 7, 1963. Is that also the terminal annex?
Mr.Holmes. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. This was taken out by whom?
Mr.Holmes. That is an application taken out by Jack Ruby on November 7, 1963, showing his firm name as being Earl Products; business, merchandising.
Mr.Belin. We will put this as Holmes Deposition Exhibit 6. Do you know of any connection of your own knowledge between Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Holmes. No, sir; I know of none.
Mr.Belin. Anything else you can say about Holmes Deposition Exhibit 6?
Mr.Holmes. I believe not.
Mr.Belin. Other than the fact that within a week of one another these two applications were taken out at the same post office?
Mr.Holmes. That is the only significance that it has, as far as I am concerned.
Mr.Belin. We will offer in evidence Holmes Deposition Exhibits 5 and 6, in addition to 1 through 4.
Let the record show that the original of Holmes Deposition Exhibit 5 will be returned to Mr. Holmes, and we will just for our records have copies made by the court reporter.
Mr.Holmes. I have a photocopy machine in my office.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Holmes, you have also asked me to make a photostatic copy of Holmes Deposition Exhibit 2 and you keep the original. This would be satisfactory for our purposes. This is the advertisement you cut out. Do you suppose you could get this to the court reporter yourself? Would you take the photostats?
Mr.Holmes. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Holmes, we want to certainly thank you for all the cooperation you have given the President's Commission.
The testimony of James W. Bookhout was taken at 11:15 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Stern. Will you please rise.
Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Bookhout. I do.
Mr.Stern. Sit down, please.
Mr.Stern. State your name, please.
Mr.Bookhout. James W. Bookhout. Do you want my home address?
Mr.Stern. Yes.
Mr.Bookhout. 7048 Cornelia Lane, Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Stern. What is your occupation, Mr. Bookhout?
Mr.Bookhout. Special agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Mr.Stern. How long have you been with the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
Mr.Bookhout. Little over 22 years.
Mr.Stern. How long have you been assigned to the Dallas office?
Mr.Bookhout. Since about 1945.
Mr.Stern. Were you on duty on November 22?
Mr.Bookhout. Actually, I was on leave on that particular date. However, I had been requested to come to the office to handle some expedited dictation in a particular case. Having completed that, I left the office and proceeded to the Mercantile National Bank, where I transacted some personal business. Upon leaving the bank, it was momentarily expected that the President's motorcade would pass that area. I stood there for a few minutes, and as the motorcade passed I was actually unable to personally observe the President, due to the crowd on the sidewalk. While waiting for the crowd to thin, in order to cross the street, several separate sirens on the police squad cars were heard proceeding in the direction of the county courthouse. While crossing the street, some citizen with a transistor radio stated that it had just been announced that shots had been fired at the President's motorcade.
I immediately proceeded toward the office and observed two agents coming from the direction of the office, who advised that the office was trying to contact me and I was to proceed to the homicide and robbery bureau of the Dallas Police Department.
I immediately proceeded to the homicide and robbery bureau and contacted my office and was advised that I was to maintain liaison with the homicide and robbery bureau.
Mr.Stern. Did you then go to the police headquarters?
Mr.Bookhout. Yes; as I said, I went to the homicide and robbery bureau after contacting the Dallas office.
Mr.Stern. What then occurred at the police headquarters? Let me ask you this: How soon after you arrived there was Oswald brought in?
Mr.Bookhout. Well, it was some little time, as I recall, the next pertinent instance was a report that the Dallas Police officer had been shot, and that was in the Oak Cliff area. Captain Fritz had not returned to the office at that time. When he did return, and subsequently Oswald was apprehended in the Texas Theatre, information was passed to Captain Fritz as to the name of the suspect that they had apprehended on the Tippit shooting, and at that time he stated that that was the suspect that they were looking for on the killing of the President.
Mr.Stern. Did the name Lee Harvey Oswald mean anything to you at that time?
Mr.Bookhout. No. Captain Fritz went on to explain that Oswald was an employee of the Texas Book Depository, who they had ascertained left his employment there subsequent to the shooting incident.
Mr.Stern. And sometime after this he was brought to the police headquarters?
Mr.Bookhout. Yes.
Mr.Stern. Were you present when he was brought in?
Mr.Bookhout. Yes.
Mr.Stern. Can you describe his physical condition?
Mr.Bookhout. I can recall one of the officers that brought him in was Paul Bentley. He is a polygraph operator in the identification division of the Dallas Police Department, and Bentley was limping, and Oswald had one eye that was swollen and a scratch mark on his forehead.
Mr.Stern. Did you observe any other bruises?
Mr.Bookhout. None.
Mr.Stern. Was he handcuffed?
Mr.Bookhout. Yes.
Mr.Stern. Was he walking by himself, or being held by police officers?
Mr.Bookhout. To my recollection there was an officer on each side of him that had ahold of his arms.
Mr.Stern. Was he struggling?
Mr.Bookhout. No; just walking in, you know what I mean.
Mr.Stern. Yes.
Mr.Bookhout. In a normal fashion.
Mr.Stern. Then what occurred, that you observed?
Mr.Bookhout. I believe he was taken directly into Captain Fritz' office and the interview started at that time with Captain Fritz, and two homicide officers.
Mr.Stern. Were you present?
Mr.Bookhout. I was not in the office at that time. I called our office, advised them he had been brought in, and that the interview was starting and shortly thereafter Mr. Shanklin, our SAC called back and said the Bureau wanted the agents present in the interview and that Hosty, James P. Hosty, I believe was to sit in on the interview, and I was to also be present with Hosty. So, at that time, we asked Captain Fritz to sit in on the interview, and that was approximately 3:15 p.m.
Mr.Stern. How long had the interview gone on before you were present?
Mr.Bookhout. Very shortly. I would give a rough estimate of not more than 5 to 10 minutes at the most.
Mr.Stern. How long did that first interview last?
Mr.Bookhout. A little under an hour.
Mr.Stern. Was it interrupted at any point, if you remember?
Mr.Bookhout. Well, what I am thinking, we have got several interviews here. I know from time to time I can't recall whether it was this interview, or subsequent interviews Captain Fritz would have to leave the office for asecond or two. By "office," I mean the immediate office that the interview was being conducted in, but still within the homicide and robbery office.
Mr.Stern. Did the interviewing continue when he was out of the room, or did you wait for his return?
Mr.Bookhout. No; it would continue.
Mr.Stern. By whom was the interview conducted?
Mr.Bookhout. Primarily it was conducted by Captain Fritz and then before he would leave from one point to another he would ask if there was anything we wanted to ask him particularly on that point.
Mr.Stern. By "we," you mean Agent Hosty and yourself?
Mr.Bookhout. Right.
Mr.Stern. What was Oswald's demeanor in the course of this interview? Did he seem in control of himself, excited, or calm? Can you describe his conduct?
Mr.Bookhout. He was very arrogant and argumentative. That is about the extent of the comment on that.
Mr.Stern. Is this as to you and Hosty, or also Captain Fritz? Did he differentiate in his conduct between Captain Fritz and the two of you?
Mr.Bookhout. Now—no; that would apply to everyone present.
Mr.Stern. Did he answer all questions put to him or did he refuse to answer the questions?
Mr.Bookhout. No; there would be certain questions that he refused to comment about.
Mr.Stern. When this happened was the question pressed, or another question asked?
Mr.Bookhout. Anyone asking the—another question would be asked.
Mr.Stern. What sort of question would he refuse to answer? Was there any pattern to his refusing?
Mr.Bookhout. Well, now, I am not certain whether this would apply then to this particular interview, the first interview or not, in answering this, but I recall specifically one of the interviews asking him about the Selective Service card which he had in the name of Hidell, and he admitted that he was carrying the card, but that he would not admit that he wrote the signature of Hidell on the card, and at that point stated that he refused to discuss the matter further. I think generally you might say anytime that you asked a question that would be pertinent to the investigation, that would be the type of question he would refuse to discuss.
Mr.Stern. Would you say he had a pretty good idea of what might be incriminating and what not incriminating?
Mr.Bookhout. Well, I think that would call for an opinion, and I can only report the facts to you, and based on the example of the type of questions that I had commented on that he refused to answer, you will have to draw your own conclusion on that.
Mr.Stern. Fine. I am just trying to get at whether he seemed in command of himself and alert, and whether he handled himself responsibly from his own viewpoint, but if you don't want to venture an opinion, that's fine.
When you first joined the interview, did you advise him that you were an agent of the FBI, and did you say anything about warning him that evidence—that anything he said might be used?
Mr.Bookhout. Yes; that was done by Agent Hosty.
Mr.Stern. Did he, at that point, or later say anything specifically regarding the FBI?
Mr.Bookhout. Yes.
Mr.Stern. Tell us what that was.
Mr.Bookhout. He accused the FBI of, generally, unfair tactics in interviewing his wife on some previous occasion.
Mr.Stern. Was this directed specifically at either you or Hosty, or to thegeneral——
Mr.Bookhout. It was directed against Hosty.
Mr.Stern. He did not, Oswald did not indicate that he knew Hosty himself, did he?
Mr.Bookhout. No.
Mr.Stern. But, there was a complaint about an interview, or interrogation of Marina Oswald?
Mr.Bookhout. Right.
Mr.Stern. Did he say anything about FBI interviews of him that had occurred in the past, any complaint about such interviews?
Mr.Bookhout. I don't know that that would be in this particular interview, but in one of the interviews which has been reported he stated that he had been interviewed at Fort Worth, Tex., by agents upon his return to the United States from Russia, and he felt that they had used unfair means of interviewing him, or something. Those are not his exact words, but that is the impression he conveyed.
Mr.Stern. Unfair in what respect?
Mr.Bookhout. I don't know.
Mr.Stern. Did he say?
Mr.Bookhout. No.
Mr.Stern. Tell us the nature of his complaint.
Mr.Bookhout. I think he probably used the expression, "Unfair tactics," or something in their interviews.
Mr.Stern. Yes. Did he indicate that he felt that the interview that was then going on was unfair in any way? Did he complain about that?
Mr.Bookhout. No, he didn't complain about the interview. He made a complaint or two, as I recall, that one of the interviews that has been reported, in fact, I believe it was in this first interview he complained about his hands being handcuffed behind his back, and asked Captain Fritz to remove the handcuffs. Captain Fritz had one of his officers uncuff his hands from behind his back and recuff them in front and asked him if that was more satisfactory and he stated that it was.
Mr.Stern. Any other aspect of his treatment that he complained of?
Mr.Bookhout. I recall one of the interviews that he complained about the lineup that he was in, that he wasn't allowed to wear a jacket similar to jackets worn by others in the lineup.
Mr.Stern. Did this occur at the lineup or subsequently?
Mr.Bookhout. This was in one of the interviews in Captain Fritz' office.
Mr.Stern. Referring to a lineup thathad——
Mr.Bookhout. Subsequently been held—previously been held.
Mr.Stern. During the first interview was he asked whether he had ever been in Mexico, and if so, by whom?
Mr.Bookhout. Yes; I recall Hosty asking him if he had ever been in Mexico.
Mr.Stern. What did he say?
Mr.Bookhout. He said he had not. I believe he mentioned he had been in Tijuana, Mexico, I believe, but I believe the question was whether he had ever been in Mexico City.
Mr.Stern. Was he asked about an organization called the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and if so, by whom?
Mr.Bookhout. Yes, he was asked if he belonged to that. I don't recall specifically who raised the question.
Mr.Stern. What did he say?
Mr.Bookhout. He said he was a member of it, and was secretary of the New Orleans branch. I believe he said the headquarters was in New York City.
Mr.Stern. Was there much discussion of this, or just the identification?
Mr.Bookhout. Well, now, that is another instance where he balked on answering a question. He was asked who the officers were, and at that point he said he refused to discuss the matter further.
Mr.Stern. Was he asked his residence address in Dallas and did he give it?
Mr.Bookhout. Yes; he furnished the address of 1026 North Beckley.
Mr.Stern. Did he say that he was living there under another name, or was another name and particularly the name O. H. Lee mentioned at all in this connection?
Mr.Bookhout. He was asked why he was using the name Lee at this address, and he attempted to pass it off by stating that the landlord was an old lady,and his first name was Lee and she just had gotten it in her head that he was Mr. Lee. He never did explain about the initials O. H.
Mr.Stern. Was he asked whether he had shot the President, or Officer Tippit?
Mr.Bookhout. Yes; he was asked that, and denied shooting either one of them, or knowing anything about it.
Mr.Stern. Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr.Bookhout. Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested. He claimed that he had bought this some time ago in Fort Worth.
Mr.Stern. He said he had gotten it in Fort Worth?
Mr.Bookhout. That is my recollection, and there again, in trying to follow through on that line of thought, he refused to answer any further questions as to whereabouts in Fort Worth he had bought it.
Mr.Stern. Did he talk about his arrest and his resistance of arrest at the Texas Theatre?
Mr.Bookhout. He admitted fighting with the officer at the time of the arrest, but I don't recall any explanation as to why he was doing it.
Mr.Stern. Did he admit that he might have been wrong in doing that, or say anything to that effect?
Mr.Bookhout. Seemed to me like he made the comment that the only thing he was guilty of, or the only thing he could be charged with would be the carrying of a concealed weapon, and of resisting the arrest.
Mr.Stern. When he was asked about involvement in the assassination of President Kennedy, or the shooting of Officer Tippit, how would you describe his denials?
Mr.Bookhout. Well, I don't know exactly how to describe it, but as I recall, he spoke very loudly. In other words, he was—he gave an emphatic denial, that is about all I can recall on it.
Mr.Stern. I believe that in the report you filed on this first interview, you or Agent Hosty, who joined in the report with you, used the adverb "frantically" to describe his denial of an involvement. Does that refresh your recollection as to that? Would you use that word now, or was that your word?
Mr.Bookhout. No; that was written by Hosty, and that would be his expression of describing it.
Mr.Stern. Do you think "emphatically," is perhaps the more descriptive word now?
Mr.Bookhout. Well, that would be the way I would describe it. As I said, hespoke——
Mr.Stern. I am not trying to put words into your mouth.
Mr.Bookhout. He spoke loudly.
Mr.Stern. I am most interested in getting the tone of this interrogation and his state, the way he conducted himself, and that is why I ask this question, and there is something of a difference between saying a man is acting frantically as opposed to his acting emphatically.
Mr.Bookhout. Well, I suppose the word, "frantically," would probably describe it. In other words, I said that he spoke loudly. There just wasn't a normal type of denial. He was—it was more than that. That is the reason I say that probably "frantically," might be a descriptive word.
Mr.Stern. Did that occur only in connection with questions about whether he had shot the President, or was the general tone of this interrogation, as far as he was concerned, at that level?
Mr.Bookhout. No; he wouldn't use the same expression of speech in answering all questions. He would have certain kinds there, and certain types of questions that he would apparently have stronger feelings on.
Mr.Stern. Do you recall at any time his pounding on the desk, or making any other physical gestures of that kind?
Mr.Bookhout. I don't recall him pounding on the desk; no, sir.
Mr.Stern. Now, this interview, as I understand, took approximately an hour?
Mr.Bookhout. That's correct.
Mr.Stern. According to this report, you and Agent Hosty entered the interviewing around about 3:15 p.m., and it ended at 4:05.
Mr.Bookhout. That would be correct.
Mr.Stern. Were these times that you or Hosty would have recorded at that moment in the ordinary course of your participation?
Mr.Bookhout. That's correct. There was no log made of it, as such, but those were the times recorded for that particular interview.
Mr.Stern. Your normal practice is to get times down pretty accurately in matter ofthis——
Mr.Bookhout. Try to.
Mr.Stern. And did you make the record of these times, or did Agent Hosty?
Mr.Bookhout. I can say that I did. Whether he did or not, I don't know.
Mr.Stern. Incidentally, normally, do you preserve those notes or destroy them when you make a formal report?
Mr.Bookhout. They will be, normally, destroyed at the time you make your—what we refer to as an interview report.
Mr.Stern. And in this case, did you destroy your notes?
Mr.Bookhout. That's correct.
Mr.Stern. So, you have no notes respecting this whole matter?
Mr.Bookhout. No, other than the reported interviewing report.
Mr.Stern. Yes; when the first interview was concluded, it was, as I understand it, to take Oswald before a lineup?
Mr.Bookhout. That's correct.
Mr.Stern. Did you go with the police taking Oswald?
Mr.Bookhout. No; I didn't go with them. In other words, it was strictly, as far as we were concerned, a police operation. I did proceed to the lineup room and observed it for the purpose of maintaining our liaison and keeping up with what was going on.
Mr.Stern. Do you recall how many people were in the lineup?
Mr.Bookhout. It was a four-man lineup.
Mr.Stern. Did you know any of the other people?
Mr.Bookhout. No.
Mr.Stern. Do you recall now their physical characteristics, as related to Oswald's physical characteristics? Were they same size as he, or noticeably larger or smaller?
Mr.Bookhout. I observed that the lineup consisted of four men who were numbered from left to right, one through four. Oswald was No. 2 in the lineup. All the individuals appeared to be of the same general age, height, and weight, and they were white American males.
Mr.Stern. What about the dress of all the people in the lineup?
Mr.Bookhout. I cannot recall specifically what the dress was, but there was nothing obviously different between their dress.
Mr.Stern. From your experience as an FBI agent, from your experience in policework, I take it you observed nothing about this lineup that was out of the ordinary?
Mr.Bookhout. That's correct.
Mr.Stern. Did you hear what the witnesses who were present at the lineup said about the lineup?
Mr.Bookhout. No; I did not.
Mr.Stern. When the lineup was concluded, what happened next, as far as you were concerned?
Mr.Bookhout. I returned to the homicide and robbery bureau.
Mr.Stern. Was Oswald brought back there, or taken elsewhere?
Mr.Bookhout. I don't recall specifically whether he was brought back to the homicide and robbery bureau, or placed in jail, but I do know that I didn't interview him any more that day.
Mr.Stern. Did you have any further contact with him that day? Friday?
Mr.Bookhout. No.
Mr.Stern. When did you next see Oswald?
Mr.Bookhout. Well, it would be on the morning of November 23, 1963, in the homicide and robbery bureau.
Mr.Stern. This was another interrogation?
Mr.Bookhout. Yes.
Mr.Stern. Conducted by Captain Fritz?
Mr.Bookhout. That's correct.
Mr.Stern. Do you recall who else was present, and you may refer any time to your reports to refresh your recollection.
Mr.Bookhout. All right; that will be the interrogation that was in the presence of myself, T. J. Kelley of the U.S. Secret Service, David B. Grant, U.S. Secret Service, Robert I. Nash, U.S. marshal, and Detectives Billy L. Senkel and Fay M. Turner from the homicide and robbery bureau, Dallas Police Department. This interview was conducted, primarily, by Captain Fritz.
Mr.Stern. Did you ask any questions in the course of this interview?
Mr.Bookhout. Yes.
Mr.Stern. What were they, and what were the responses, if you recall?
Mr.Bookhout. One specific question was with regard to the selective service card in the possession of Oswald bearing a photograph of Oswald and the name Alek James Hidell. Oswald admitted he carried this selective service card, but declined to state that he wrote the signature of Alek J. Hidell appearing on same. Further declined to state the purpose of carrying same, and—or any use he made of same.
Mr.Stern. Did Oswald say anything in the course of this interview with regard to obtaining a lawyer?
Mr.Bookhout. Yes, it was in this interview that he mentioned he wanted to contact Attorney Abt [spelling] A-b-t, New York City. I recall Captain Fritz asked him if he knew Abt personally and he said he did not, but he explained that he knew that Abt had defended the Smith Act cases in 1949, or 1950, and Captain Fritz asked him if he knew how to get ahold of Mr. Abt, and he stated that he did not know what his address was, but he was in New York.
I recall that Captain Fritz explained to him that he would allow him to place a long distance call for Abt, and he explained to Oswald how to ask the long distance operator to trace him down and locate him, even though Oswald didn't even know his address or telephone number.
Mr.Stern. Did he actually make the call in your presence?
Mr.Bookhout. No; he didn't make the call in my presence. The next interview that we had with him, I recall that Captain Fritz asked him if he had been able to contact Mr. Abt. Oswald stated that he had made the telephone call and thanked Captain Fritz for allowing him to make the call, but actually, he had not been able to talk to Abt. He wasn't available. Wasn't in his office orsomething——
Mr.Stern. Was he complaining about not having counsel furnished, or did he seem satisfied with the effort to reach Abt?
Mr.Bookhout. No; he made no complaint about not being furnished an attorney. Actually, there was a good deal of conversation on that point, and he stated that he did not want any Dallas attorney representing him, and said that if he couldn't get in touch with Mr. Abt, that he would probably contact someone with the Civil Liberties Union, and have them furnish an attorney. I recall sometime during November 22 or 23, I believe it was, the head of the Dallas Bar Association appeared at the homicide and robbery bureau and requested permission to talk to Oswald. Captain Fritz gave him that permission, and when he got through talking to Oswald and came back in and told Captain Fritz that he had seen him, and that Oswald did not want anybody from Dallas to represent him.
Mr.Stern. You heard this?
Mr.Bookhout. Yes; that was in my presence. I don't recall the name of the attorney, but I was there at the time or during that conversation.
Mr.Stern. Can you tell us approximately how long this Saturday morning interview took?
Mr.Bookhout. Well, that would be approximately an hour. No interview that I participated in lasted over an hour, and I think roughly this one probably started around 10:35 in the morning and lasted for approximately an hour.
Mr.Stern. All right. What was his physical appearance at this time?
Mr.Bookhout. His appearance was no different than it was on the 22d.
Mr.Stern. You saw no other bruises?
Mr.Bookhout. No.
Mr.Stern. Did he seem rested, or tired?
Mr.Bookhout. I saw no difference in his appearance on the 23d than it was on the 22d.
Mr.Stern. How about the way he handled himself? Was he any calmer, any more communicative Saturday morning than he had been Friday afternoon?
Mr.Bookhout. Well, I think that he might not have been quite as belligerent on the 23d as he was on the 22d. But he still refused to discuss certain points indicated above, selective service card being one point that I recall. I remember he was asked if he would take a polygraph, and he said he would not, that it had always been his practice not to agree to take a polygraph.
Mr.Stern. Did he suggest that he had been asked before to take a polygraph?
Mr.Bookhout. He made some comment along the line that it had never been his policy—before, to take a polygraph.
Mr.Stern. But he didn't elaborate on it?
Mr.Bookhout. He didn't elaborate on it.
Mr.Stern. Did he make any further comment at this interview about his interviews with the FBI, or their interviews of his wife?
Mr.Bookhout. I think probably this is the one I referred to a while ago. Yes, it would be in this interview that he made further comment that on the interview of Ruth Paine by the FBI, regarding his wife, that he felt that his wife was intimidated. Also, in this interview that he made mention as previously stated above that he had arrived about July 19, 1962, from Russia, and was interviewed by the FBI at Fort Worth, Tex.