He stated that he felt that they had overstepped their bounds and used various tactics in interviewing him.
Mr.Stern. Did he specify what the tactics were?
Mr.Bookhout. No; he did not.
Mr.Stern. In your report before this interview you mentioned that he again denied shooting President Kennedy, and apparently said that he didn't know until then that Governor Connally had been shot?
Mr.Bookhout. That's correct. That was his statement, that he denied shooting President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963, and commented that he did not know that Governor John Connally had been shot.
Mr.Stern. Did you form any impression about whether he was genuinely surprised? Did he look genuinely surprised to you, or how did you feel about that? I am just asking for your impression. If you don't have one, say so.
Mr.Bookhout. No; I have no impression on that. I arrived at no conclusion.
Mr.Stern. What did he say at this interview with respect to the purchase of a rifle, or possession of a rifle?
Mr.Bookhout. Generally, he stated that he didn't own a rifle, hadn't ever made any mail order purchase of one.
Mr.Stern. Now, did anything transpire that you observed concerning Oswald between the end of that morning interview on Saturday, and the next interview of Oswald?
Mr.Bookhout. No.
Mr.Stern. You stayed at the police headquarters in that period performing liaison functions?
Mr.Bookhout. Yes.
Mr.Stern. You did not observe another lineup?
Mr.Bookhout. No; there were other lineups.
Mr.Stern. But you did not participate?
Mr.Bookhout. But I did not observe.
Mr.Stern. Or observe?
Mr.Bookhout. Any others.
Mr.Stern. Now, approximately when did the next interview occur?
Mr.Bookhout. The interview at about 6:30 p.m., on November 23, 1963.
Mr.Stern. How long did this interview last?
Mr.Bookhout. Not over an hour.
Mr.Stern. Who conducted this interview?
Mr.Bookhout. Captain Fritz.
Mr.Stern. Did you ask any questions, that you recall?
Mr.Bookhout. I don't recall asking any specific questions during this interview.
Mr.Stern. It was at this interview, was it not, that Oswald was shown photographs of himself holding a rifle and wearing a pistol in a holster?
Mr.Bookhout. That's correct.
Mr.Stern. What was his comment about the photograph?
Mr.Bookhout. His comment, as I recall, he was asked if this was his photograph, and his comment was that the head of the photograph was his, but that it could have been superimposed over the body of someone else. He pointed out that he had been apparently photographed by news media numerous times in proceeding from the homicide and robbery bureau to the lineup and back, and that is how they probably got the photograph of his face, and he went into a long discussion of how much he knew about photography, and knew that this—his face could be superimposed over somebody else's body holding the gun and pistol and so forth.
Mr.Stern. Now, was his appearance and demeanor at thisinterview——
Mr.Bookhout. No different than it was during the previous interviews.
Mr.Stern. Did he have any comment at this interview about counsel?
Mr.Bookhout. None other than at the outset of being first asked if that was his photograph, he first made the statement that he wouldn't make any comment about it without the advice of counsel, but then subsequently is when he went into the story about his face had been superimposed over somebody else's body.
Mr.Stern. Did he complain in the course of this interview about the way in which the lineup had been conducted?
Mr.Bookhout. This is the interview in which he—a previously mentioned comment here was made to the effect that he had not been granted a request to put on a jacket similar to those worn by some of the other individuals in some previous lineups.
Mr.Stern. In each of these interviews was he generally taken through the same questions or similar questions, or were the interviews addressed to different areas?
Mr.Bookhout. More or less, they had been to a specific area. For instance, in this last interview we are talking about, that was more or less confined to this photograph.
Mr.Stern. Yes. Did he ever complain that, "We have been over that ground before," or make any such statement?
Mr.Bookhout. No; I don't recall anything along that line, but I can recall one subject matter probably in the first interview where he talked about his method of transportation after leaving the Texas Book Depository, having gotten on a bus, and then that subject was taken up again, as I recall, in the second interview, expressed the same answer at that time, and then subsequently to that interview he backed up and said that it wasn't actually true as to how he got home. That he had taken a bus, and due to the traffic jam he had left the bus and got a taxicab, by which means he actually arrived at his residence.
Mr.Stern. Had he been confronted by the driver of the taxicab, or been told that they had located the driver of the taxicab before he changed his story, or did he volunteer the story of the taxi?
Mr.Bookhout. I don't recall specifically whether he was confronted with that or not.
Mr.Stern. All right. Do you recall whether in the course of any of the interrogations any official, anyone present suggested in any way to Oswald that things would be better for him if he told the truth, if he confessed? Was he ever offered any inducement—any suggestion made that he would be better off if he told the full story?
Mr.Bookhout. I can't recall anything along that line. I don't recall any type of inducement whatsoever.
Mr.Stern. In each interview in which you participated, did you warn him about the possible use of his statement against him?
Mr.Bookhout. I personally did not at each interview, but I can say that ateach interview he was warned. He was warned numerous times by Captain Fritz and his rights were fully explained to him.
Mr.Stern. What sort of warning would Captain Fritz give him, generally?
Mr.Bookhout. He gave a warning consisting of the fact that he did not have to make any statement, that any statement he made could be used against him in court, and he had the right to consult with an attorney, generally, that was the rights that were explained to him, as I recall.
Mr.Stern. This was said at each session at which you were present?
Mr.Bookhout. This was given at once each time, and the question would come up later on, I mean, he would repeat himself, that, you don't have to make any statement—and so forth.
Mr.Stern. Did you observe anytime any physical or mental coercion of Oswald by anyone?
Mr.Bookhout. None whatsoever.
Mr.Stern. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Stern. Now, back on the record. This interview on late Saturday afternoon, was about 6 or 6:30, is that correct?
Mr.Bookhout. This one started about 6:30 p.m. And I would say it lasted about an hour.
Mr.Stern. I see. So, that is 7:30?
Mr.Bookhout. Yes.
Mr.Stern. Was there any further interview that day that you participated in?
Mr.Bookhout. None that I recall.
Mr.Stern. Did you see Oswald again anytime after that interview concluded?
Mr.Bookhout. Now, yes; on the morning of November 24, 1963, I observed him in interview with Captain Fritz and numerous other officers in the homicide and robbery bureau. Captain Fritz—I did not participate in this interview. It had already started before I arrived.
Mr.Stern. Did you notice anything unusual about his appearance?
Mr.Bookhout. No.
Mr.Stern. Did you see Oswald again?
Mr.Bookhout. I stayed there in the office of the homicide and robbery bureau. When I refer to "office" I mean the overall office, and inside of that office is a private office of Captain Fritz. The interview was being conducted in the private office. There is a glass partition or glass—well, say glass partition on one side of the office that you can see what is going on inside there. I took a seat adjacent to this glass area in the office proper of the homicide and robbery bureau, and watched Oswald during the interview that was going on. About—well, I don't know what time specifically, it was after 11 o'clock, as I recall, the interview terminated. I asked Captain Fritz if he had—if Oswald made any admissions, and he stated that he had not made any. Shortly thereafter he was taken out of the homicide and robbery bureau. I remained in the homicide office.
Mr.Stern. Did you see him again?
Mr.Bookhout. Next time I saw him was after a report came out over the intercom system for any homicide and robbery officers to report to the city hall basement. I proceeded to the basement after learning from Lieutenant Baker in the homicide and robbery bureau, who had made a telephone call to the dispatcher to inquire what was going on, that Oswald had been shot.
When I arrived in the basement I asked where was Oswald, and they said that he was in the jail office. I asked who had shot him, and I was told an individual by the name of Jack Ruby. I asked where he was. They said, they have already taken him up to the jail.
Mr.Stern. Fine.
Mr.Bookhout. Just shortly thereafter the ambulance came, and I observed them roll Oswald out of the jail office on the stretcher and that is thelast——
Mr.Stern. I would like to clear up one point, Mr. Bookhout, about the number of interviews on Saturday. Your present recollection is that there were how many in which you participated?
Mr.Bookhout. Two on Saturday.
Mr.Stern. One at about what time and the other at what time?
Mr.Bookhout. One was about 10:35 a.m., and the second one was about 6:30 p.m.
Mr.Stern. You do not now recall any separate interview at about 12:30 on Saturday?
Mr.Bookhout. I don't specifically recall any separate interview at that time. I checked the record before coming over and the interviews that I have mentioned are the only ones I have in the report.
Mr.Stern. Would you describe briefly the conditions in the corridor outside the homicide and robbery area.
Mr.Bookhout. On November 22 and 23, the hallway in front of the homicide and robbery bureau located on the third floor of the city hall building was jammed with news media. From the elevator area to the end of the hallway, extending on past the homicide and robbery bureau entrance.
Mr.Stern. Could you hear anything from the hallway when you were in the interrogation room?
Mr.Bookhout. No; there were two Dallas Police officers on duty at the entrance to the homicide and robbery bureau, who required you to identify yourself being that—before being allowed entrance into the bureau. The interviews of Oswald were conducted in the private offices of Capt. J. W. Fritz, located within the same bureau, and the door to the private office was closed, and we did not hear any commotion going on outside in the halls while the interviews were in progress.
Mr.Stern. Did Oswald ever say anything that you heard about the press and conditions in the hallway?
Mr.Bookhout. The only thing I recall offhand is the incident mentioned previously about the press undoubtedly taking his photograph when he was going and coming from the homicide and robbery bureau.
Mr.Stern. I think that covers all the questions I have, Mr. Bookhout. Thank you very much for coming here.
Mr.Bookhout. You are welcome.
Mr.Stern. If there is anything that occurs to you that I haven't asked about and you think the Commission should know, I would be delighted to have you tell me.
Mr.Bookhout. I can't think of anything that I could add to what you have already heard.
Mr.Stern. Now, our reporter will transcribe your testimony and can make a copy available for you to read and sign. If you think it is accurate, you can waive that if you desire, and she will then send it directly to the Commission. It makes no difference at all to the Commission which you elect.
Mr.Bookhout. I think that as far as I am concerned, it would be all right.
Mr.Stern. Fine. Then you will waive?
Mr.Bookhout. My idea—the purpose—only purpose I would have would be just to help you if there are any typographical errors in there.
Mr.Stern. Fine. And thank you for coming in today.
Mr.Bookhout. All right.
The testimony of Manning C. Clements was taken at 10:15 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Stern. Good morning, Mr. Clements. Will you rise and raise your right hand, please.
Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Clements. I do.
Mr.Stern. Would you please sit down. State your name and address.
Mr.Clements. Manning C. Clements, 5542 Montrose [spelling] M-o-n-t-r-o-s-e Drive, Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Stern. What is your occupation, Mr. Clements?
Mr.Clements. I'm a special agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Mr.Stern. How long have you been a member of the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
Mr.Clements. Twenty-three years and approximately 4 months.
Mr.Stern. How long have you been assigned to the Dallas office?
Mr.Clements. Since April 1952.
Mr.Stern. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty as a special agent?
Mr.Clements. I was.
Mr.Stern. Did your duties that morning before noon concern the visit of the President?
Mr.Clements. No.
Mr.Stern. Will you relate to us what happened when you first heard the news of the shooting of the President?
Mr.Clements. I arrived at the office following lunch and shortly thereafter heard of the shooting at the motorcade, and my superior instructed me to go to the office of the chief of police. I was to offer the services of the Federal Bureau of Investigation for whatever use the police might find them of benefit.
Mr.Stern. What did you do then?
Mr.Clements. I went to the police station, arriving there at approximately 1 o'clock. I immediately contacted the office of the chief. I found that he was out. I contacted Capt. Glen King, his administrative assistant, and Captain Lunday, who was also on duty in the chief's office. Contacted Art Hammet, the public relations representative, who was occupying the desk in the outer office of the chief. I informed each of them as to the reason for my presence and that any requests that they might have for FBI assistance, information or otherwise, could be given to me and I would in turn, relay their request to our Dallas office.
Mr.Stern. What occurred next?
Mr.Clements. During the course of the next several hours I was in occasional contact with various representatives of the police department, in contact with my own office by telephone. Served more or less as a liaison officer to relay instructions to any other FBI agents who were on the premises.
Mr.Stern. When did you first hear of the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Clements. I can't fix the exact time. I am certain that I heard almost immediately after the arrest, because I learned from police personnel of the shooting of Officer Tippit, and thereafter, when they received radio reports, I was generally aware of such report. So, I became aware of the arrest of Oswald, I would say, approximately coincidentally with the front office, or with the police department learning of the arrest.
Mr.Stern. At that time his name meant nothing?
Mr.Clements. Repeat that.
Mr.Stern. His name meant nothing to you?
Mr.Clements. No.
Mr.Stern. Were you present when he was brought into the police headquarters?
Mr.Clements. No.
Mr.Stern. When did you first see Oswald?
Mr.Clements. I am, at this moment, uncertain of whether I saw him prior to personally interrogating him. I don't believe that I did.
Mr.Stern. Did you know that he was being interrogated, and that other special agents of the FBI were present?
Mr.Clements. It was my understanding that he was being questioned and that FBI agents were participating.
Mr.Stern. You were, then, pursuing other functions?
Mr.Clements. Yes.
Mr.Stern. And they were, again, liaison activities?
Mr.Clements. Liaison—primarily.
Mr.Stern. Were you, Mr. Clements, the conduit for any information that the FBI had concerning Oswald, to the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Clements. No.
Mr.Stern. I understand that you participated in an interrogation of Oswald. Would you tell me about that?
Mr.Clements. Sometime during the evening I did go to the homicide bureau office for some purpose I don't immediately recall, and there I saw one of our other agents, James Bookhout, and I asked him if anyone had, to his knowledge, taken a detailed physical description and detailed background information from Oswald. He told me that such description and background data had not been obtained, and suggested that I do it. I learned from Bookhout, as I recall, that Oswald was, at the time, in a small office, the door of which was closed.
I sought out Captain Fritz, in charge of the homicide bureau, or one of his ranking officers and asked if there was any objection to my interviewing Oswald in the regard mentioned.
I was told there was no objection. I entered this room and found that Oswald was in the room, and being guarded by two officers who I presumed to be members of the Dallas Police Department, but whom I did not personally know.
Mr.Stern. They were not interrogating him?
Mr.Clements. No; they were apparently just sitting on guard duty.
Mr.Stern. Then what happened?
Mr.Clements. I introduced myself to the officers whose names I do not believe that I got, and also introduced myself to Oswald. Exhibited my credentials and told him that I would like to obtain from him some physical description, background, biographical data. He was agreeable, and I began my interview with him.
Mr.Stern. Can you approximate the time of day that this occurred—roughly?
Mr.Clements. I would say the interview began roughly at 10 p.m.
Mr.Stern. How long did it last? And was it interrupted?
Mr.Clements. I estimate the overall interview was approximately 30 or 35 minutes. I was interrupted twice, perhaps, during the interview, being informed that he was being taken out for a lineup. While he was gone I examined the contents of his wallet which was there on the desk, and identified to me as Oswald's wallet. When he returned I continued the interview.
Mr.Stern. Approximately how long was he gone?
Mr.Clements. I would estimate 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr.Stern. So, that the total amount of time that you spent with him was something like 20 minutes?
Mr.Clements. That would be a rough estimate.
Mr.Stern. Did you see him again after that interview?
Mr.Clements. Yes; I saw him next at a time which I estimate was 11:30 p.m., the 22d. It was at a time when he was being taken to the basement of the city hall to a press conference. I saw him as he was being taken to the third floor from the offices of the homicide bureau, and I went to the basement myself arriving there before he did, and I saw him as he was being brought into the room where the press conference was held, and during the course of the press conference.
Mr.Stern. Did you see him again at any time after that press conference?
Mr.Clements. No.
Mr.Stern. What was his physical condition, as you observed it whenyou——
Mr.Clements.He——
Mr.Stern. When you entered the room to interrogate him?
Mr.Clements. I observed a bruise, a bruise in the vicinity of one of his eyes. I believe minor scratches on his face. I saw no evidence that he was suffering from any physical pain or anything of that sort.
Mr.Stern. Was he handcuffed?
Mr.Clements. Yes.
Mr.Stern. With his hands in front or behind?
Mr.Clements. Hands were in front.
Mr.Stern. Did he seem alert, or otherwise?
Mr.Clements. He seemed alert.
Mr.Stern. Will you now tell, Mr. Clements, as much as you can recall of your interrogation of Oswald at that time?
Mr.Clements. I informed him of the purpose of my interview. He made no objection. I proceeded to get his name in full. I asked him questions as to his date and place of birth, height, weight, color of his hair and eyes, and as to the existence of any permanent scars or marks. As to the identities of close relatives, their addresses and occupations, and asked him as to his own occupation, residence, attempting to get them in chronological order, and asked as to his past occupations.
Mr.Stern. Did you review with him the contents of his wallet and ask him questions on any of it?
Mr.Clements. I questioned him as to the fictitious, and obviously fictitious selective service card, which I found in his wallet. I recognized it as being fictitious card from the fact that the photograph was mounted on the card, and that there were obvious erasures in typing of information on the card itself. The card was in the name of an Alek James Hidell, but bore the photograph of Oswald.
Mr.Stern. What did he say about that card?
Mr.Clements. He declined to answer any questions as to the reason of his possession of it.
Mr.Stern. Were there any other questions you put to him that he refused to answer?
Mr.Clements. Toward the conclusion of the interview and after he had been absent and returned I continued with the questions of past residence and past occupations. He responded to my questions. At a time when I asked him as to his present occupation he hesitated and told me that he thought the obtaining of his description and background information had become somewhat prolonged. He said that he had refused to be interviewed by other law enforcement officers previously, and that he had no intention of being interviewed by me. He continued that he knew the tactics of the FBI. He stated there was a counterpart or a similar agency in Russia, that I was using the soft touch, where the approach of a Russian agency would be different, but the tactics would be the same.
Mr.Stern. At that point did he stop answering questions?
Mr.Clements. No; at that point I asked the same question that I had asked previously, and he answered.
Mr.Stern. Did the interview continue beyond that?
Mr.Clements. That was substantially the end of the interview.
Mr.Stern. Were there other persons present besides the two Dallas police officers who were guarding him?
Mr.Clements. No.
Mr.Stern. At either time, either before or after he had been withdrawn from the lineup?
Mr.Clements. No.
Mr.Stern. Did he seem hostile or resentful or irritated by the fact that you were an FBI agent?
Mr.Clements. He did not state that, if that were the case. He was courteous, responsive as to any question. Volunteered little information.
Mr.Stern. But volunteered very little information. Did he seem a person in command of himself?
Mr.Clements. He seemed to be in command of himself both physically and mentally. He had what appeared to me to be a slightly haughty or arrogant attitude.
Mr.Stern. Did he complain to you about the treatment he was receiving?
Mr.Clements. No.
Mr.Stern. Did he say anything to you about obtaining counsel, whether he had tried to?
Mr.Clements. He said nothing whatsoever in that regard.
Mr.Stern. Did he say anything about any effort on his part to reach his family that had been unsuccessful?
Mr.Clements. No; he did not.
Mr.Stern. At the conclusion of your interview, did you leave the office in which he was being guarded and leave him behind?
Mr.Clements. Yes; I did.
Mr.Stern. When you next saw him at this press conference in the basement, can you describe the conditions in that room? How many people were present?
Mr.Clements. The corridor on the third floor was quite crowded, and when I reached the basement there were, I would estimate, perhaps 50 people, all told, including officers, members of the press, perhaps others. There was a crowded condition I would say.
Mr.Stern. Quite a great deal of noise?
Mr.Clements. I don't recall any great amount of noise. Although, I do recall that members of the press were attempting to get Oswald to respond to questions.
Mr.Stern. How did he seem at that time?
Mr.Clements. I saw no difference in his appearance to that at the time I had talked with him.
Mr.Stern. Did he then seem to you to be in command of himself, and alert?
Mr.Clements. Yes; he did.
Mr.Stern. Mr. Clements, did you make a record of your interview with Oswald?
Mr.Clements. I did.
Mr.Stern. How soon after the interview did you dictate that memorandum?
Mr.Clements. The following day, November 23, 1963.
Mr.Stern. And have you reviewed that memorandum to refresh your memory of what occurred?
Mr.Clements. I have.
Mr.Stern. And you had no further contact, or didn't observe Oswald, Mr. Clements, as I understand it, from the time of the press conference until he was, himself, killed on November 24?
Mr.Clements. That's correct.
Mr.Stern. Thank you very much.
Mr.Clements. Yes.
Mr.Stern. The reporter will transcribe your testimony. You can, if you wish, review a copy of the transcript and sign it, or waive your signature and the reporter will send it directly to the Commission, whichever you prefer.
Mr.Clements. I think I would prefer to review it after it is typed.
Mr.Stern. Fine.
The reporter will get in touch with you and give you an opportunity to review it.
Thank you very much for coming in.
The testimony of Gregory Lee Olds was taken at 4:05 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Stern. Will you stand and raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Olds. I do.
Mr.Stern. Sit down, please, Mr. Olds. For the record will you state your name and address.
Mr.Olds. Gregory Lee Olds, 1316 Timberlake, Richardson, Tex.
Mr.Stern. What is your profession?
Mr.Olds. I am an editor of a weekly newspaper.
Mr.Stern. Where?
Mr.Olds. In Richardson.
Mr.Stern. What is your connection with the Dallas Civil Liberties Union?
Mr.Olds. I am its President.
Mr.Stern. Were you its president in November of 1963?
Mr.Olds. Yes.
Mr.Stern. Can you tell us what transpired on November 22, in connection with your efforts and the efforts of your organization to assure that Lee Harvey Oswald was not being denied his right to counsel?
Mr.Olds. Yes. I got a phone call about 10:30 that night from one of our board members saying they had been called by the President of the Austin affiliate who was concerned about the reports that were being circulated on the air. I think Oswald was directly quoted as saying he had not been given the opportunity to have counsel, and the suggestion was made that it might be well to check into this matter, and I believe I called this—I first called the police department to inquire about this, and finally talked to Captain Fritz, Capt. Will Fritz, and was—raised the question, and he said, "No—" that Oswald had been given the opportunity and declined. And I called—then I called the board member back who had calledme——
Mr.Stern. Excuse me. Did Captain Fritz say that Oswald did not want counsel at that time, or that he was trying to obtain his own counsel?
Mr.Olds. What I was told, that he had been given the opportunity and had not made any requests. So, I called our board member back and conferred with him and he suggested that we go down and see about it at the police department, in person, to get further assurances. And he and I and two others of our organization met down there at the Plaza Hotel lobby about 11:15, directly across the street from the police station, and we discussed the matter there, and I called Mayor Earle Cabell at his office, but was told that he was busy at the moment so we went then over to the police station, and we got in there. Let's see, it was up on the—I guess the third or fourth floor, wherever Oswald was being questioned, and Chuck Webster, a lawyer—professor of law, who was known to the other three men with me said he had been there a good part of the time since the assassination, and that—we told him what we were there for, and he said he thought he knew who we could see to get our assurances. Did you have something?
Mr.Stern. No.
Mr.Olds. We went to—first, we talked—conferred with Captain King, I believe is the right name, who is, I believe, assistant to the chief of police. I'm not sure on that. We all went in with Mr. Webster, and this was shortly after 11:35, or 11:40, and Captain King was, at this time, talking to somebody and said that Oswald had just been charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. He had here—earlier been charged with the assassination—I mean the murder of the policeman, Tippit, and we told Captain King what we were there for, and he said, he assured us that Oswald had not made any requests for counsel. And we went outside of the office and went downstairs, at least—I didn't, but two of the others, I believe, went downstairs to the basement where Justice of the Peace David Johnston was. He was the one that had held the—I believe an arraignment, I believe is the right term, at 7:30 when the first charge of murder was filed against Oswald, and he also assured us that there had been an opportunity of—Oswald's rights had been explained, and he had declined counsel. Said nothing beyond that. I think that was the extent of our inquiry.
Mr.Stern. What happened next?
Mr.Olds. Also we were—I believe Chief Curry was quoted to us as having said some—also that Oswald had been advised of his rights to counsel. I am not sure who told me that. I believe that it was Mr. Webster. That was about all. We felt fairly well satisfied that Oswald probably had not been deprived of his rights, so, we then broke up. I think the other men went home, and I went downstairs. I heard that there was going to be a press conference, so I thought I could stand in on that and—do you want me to go ahead and detail that?
Mr.Stern. Yes, thiswas——
Mr.Olds. This was right at midnight, I think, when Oswald was brought in.
Mr.Stern. Brought in where?
Mr.Olds. This was a squadroom and I am not sure what the term is. It isin the basement of the police station. That was being used as a pressroom. I believe it is some sort of a classroom or something of that sort. He was brought in there. I suppose a hundred reporters standing around on tables, and I understand Ruby was there at the time, too, up near the front.
Mr.Stern. You don't know that, though?
Mr.Olds. I don't remember seeing him.
Mr.Stern. Do you know Ruby?
Mr.Olds. No; I don't. No; I remember someone saying what he was supposed to have said when—and helped somebody answer a question. I forget what it was, and Oswald came in, and he was there about 5minutes——
Mr.Stern. Were you permitted to enter this room without displaying any identification?
Mr.Olds. Yes; I wasn't stopped at all. Nobody seemed to pay—it was pretty well confused around there, and nobody questioned me at all.
Mr.Stern. Would you have been known to the police as a newspaperman?
Mr.Olds. I had never been in the police building. No one had any way of knowing who I was, or what my business was.
Mr.Stern. Did you have to identify yourself to get into this building to begin with?
Mr.Olds. No; no problem getting into the building. No one in the lobby, and I don't believe there was anyone at all until you get up to the third or fourth floor where the police department section of the building begins.
Mr.Stern. What were the conditions of this room and the scene?
Mr.Olds. Well, you mean the room where the press conference was held, where Oswald came in? It was very noisy, and when Oswald came in it was very confusing. The reporters were yelling at each other to get out of the way, and they were, the photographers were having a very bad time with it, and people kept crowding toward the front and standing on tables so that they could see and hear and Oswald was there such a brief time, and was not able to be heard beyond the first row of reporters who were circled around him. Thereafter reporters were interviewing reporters who were on the front row to see what had been said, and some sort of confusion existed, and enough of—oh, probably 50 reporters standing around there, and it was a very confusing situation it seemed. And Oswald had to be brought through the hall on his way from the interrogation room to his cell, so, he couldn't avoid being seen, and it was at this time that he was making the statements that were being quoted.
Mr.Stern. Did you observe this?
Mr.Olds. No; I didn't. I saw this on television, but I could imagine it from that.
Mr.Stern. How did he look to you when he was at this press conference?
Mr.Olds. He looked remarkably composed and determined. He had a—I remarked afterwards that I would have been very much distraught, and he seemed very well self-contained and determined and maintained his innocence. I heard that, and beyond that scratch above—on his forehead and the eye that was swollen and the little—he looked all right.
He looked a little tired, of course, and I think his clothes were dirty, but he looked remarkably in good shape, I thought.
Mr.Stern. Did this give you any further assurance that—about the right to counsel question?
Mr.Olds. Possibly so, itwas——
Mr.Stern. I don't want to put the idea in your head.
Mr.Olds. Well, I know, but we had the idea that Oswald was not being accurate when he said he had been denied, because in our dealings with the police here, we have had reason to believe that they are very careful of this sort of thing. And certainly in a case of this notoriety, certainly, our tendency was to believe that, but I have always been sorry that we didn't talk with Oswald, because it was not clear whether we would be permitted to see him that night or not.
Mr.Stern. But, you did not ask to see him?
Mr.Olds. No; we did not, which I think was a mistake on my part.
Mr.Stern. Did anything transpire on Saturday, November 23?
Mr.Olds. Not so much. I was watching television most of the day and thenthe matter of counsel was raised, I think, during that day. During the—I suppose when Oswald was being transferred in the hall again, and—let's see—this is when Mr. Nichols went down late this afternoon, I think around 5:30, and he reported after that that he had seen Oswald in respect to the same reasons that we had for going down there Saturday night, to see if he wanted some sort of legal representation, and to make sure whether or not he was denied—being denied it, and he said that he was satisfied that—in essence, Oswald told Nichols he was satisfied with the situation. I can detail this conversation if you would like, as it was told to me.
Mr.Stern. No.
Mr.Olds. Well, that was the essence of what was found out.
Mr.Stern. Was there any mention of the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mr.Olds. Yes; it was at this time that we first heard the idea that Oswald might be a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, and this surprised us, because we felt we would have had a record of it in our files, but there is often a lapse of time when a member moves from one area to another and it takes some time to transfer him to the local affiliate. To make sure of this I called the national office in New York City, and it was night, of course there was no one there, but I finally got a number of one of the staff members and talked to him at his home in New Jersey and told him about it, and he said, he would check on the matter. Have somebody in New York, who lived near the office to go in and see about it, and he did and they found no such record at that time.
However, it was later discovered that on November 4, he had sent a check for $2 to the office, which was, I believe, discovered 3 weeks later.
Mr.Stern. Mr. Olds, I think that covers the matters that I am interested in. Is there anything further that you would like to tell us? Anything thatyou——
Mr.Olds. Possibly later after this matter was disposed of, we became interested in the legal status of Oswald's wife, Marina, and a story in the New York Times, I believe December 19, said something to the effect that perhaps she was being held incommunicado and in some way illegally detained. Anyway, her status was not clear as far as the reporter was concerned, and our national office in New York City got a number of inquiries both by phone and personal calls and letters, telegrams, and they asked us in turn then, to see what we could find out about it. After a certain amount of negotiations with the Secret Service and FBI and so on, we sent a letter to Mrs. Oswald and she later wrote us that she was content with her situation, and was very happy with her status, in fact, it was for her interest.
Mr.Stern. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Olds for coming in today.
The reporter will transcribe your testimony and you will then be notified when it is available and afforded an opportunity to read it and sign it. If you would like to waive that that is possible and the reporter would send the transcript directly to the Commission.
Mr.Olds. I will be glad to sign it. Do you want me to come down here and do that?
Mr.Stern. Yes.
Mr.Olds. When do you think it might be?
Mr.Stern. It should be within the next week or so.
Mr.Olds. All right, fine.
Mr.Stern. Thank you very much.
The testimony of H. Louis Nichols was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Stern. Good morning, Mr. Nichols. Will you stand and raise your right and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Nichols. I do.
Mr.Stern. Sit down, please. As you know the President's Commission has been instructed by President Johnson to inquire into all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy. This morning I would like to cover with you what you know about Lee Harvey Oswald, whom I understand you interviewed at the Dallas Police Headquarters.
Would you state your name and business address?
Mr.Nichols. H. Louis Nichols. 1200 Republic Bank Building, Dallas.
Mr.Stern. What is your profession?
Mr.Nichols. I am an attorney.
Mr.Stern. And how long have you been a member of the bar?
Mr.Nichols. Since 1939.
Mr.Stern. What bars are you a member of?
Mr.Nichols. State Bar of Texas, and admitted to practice in the Northern District of Texas, Federal Court.
Mr.Stern. What position do you presently hold with the Dallas Bar Association?
Mr.Nichols. I am a member of the board of directors for the Dallas Association, at the present time. During 1963, I was President of the Dallas Bar Association.
Mr.Stern. During the calendar year, 1963?
Mr.Nichols. Yes.
Mr.Stern. I see. Would you relate for us, Mr. Nichols, in your own words, what occurred respecting Lee Harvey Oswald and your inquiry whether he had the opportunity to avail himself of counsel during the period of his detention, which began on November 22, 1963?
Mr.Nichols. Sometime in the afternoon on Saturday the 23d of November, as I best recall, in the neighborhood of about 2 o'clock, I received a phone call from a lawyer friend of mine in Dallas who asked me if I knew whether or not Mr. Oswald was represented by an attorney.
I told him I did not. He said he had received a phone call from an eastern lawyer, dean of one of the law schools in the East, who told him that the news media up there were saying that Oswald could not get a lawyer to represent him in Dallas, and he wanted to know if I knew anything about the situation. I told him I had not been following it too closely on television, because I was out Friday and then out with my boy on Saturday morning and didn't know really whether or not he had a lawyer.
And he said, well, that was the information he had received, and wanted to know what I knew about it, and if he didn't have a lawyer, or wasn't able to get one whether or not the bar association could, or would do anything about it. I told him I didn't know what the situation was, but that I would be glad to look into it, and—it had been less than 24 hours since Mr. Oswald had been arrested. In order to refresh my memory as to what the requirement of the State law is, and since I don't practice criminal law, I called a lawyer friend of mine in Dallas who is a criminal lawyer and asked him just to tell me offhand what the obligation was to appoint lawyers in criminal cases, if a person did not have someone to represent him, and he told me that the obligation was only to appoint counsel after a man had been indicted, and that, as he understood it, since Mr. Oswald had not been indicted there was no legal obligation to appoint an attorney.
I also received another call shortly thereafter from another lawyer friend of mine in Dallas who said he had received a call from a dean of a law school. One of the calls was from one dean of one law school. The other was from another. I have forgotten which schools they were, and I don't remember which called first with regard to the various deans, but he wanted to know from me whether or not the bar association was doing anything. Whether Oswald had a lawyer. And whether or not if he didn't have one, we should do anything about getting him one, and I told him I had had a previous telephonecall from another friend of mine, and that I had made some inquiry, and at this time I did not know whether Oswald had a lawyer or was getting a lawyer, but that I was going to make some inquiry to find out about it. After talking to the second friend about it who called, I then called Mr. Henry Wade, the district attorney, to see whether or not he knew whether or not Oswald was represented by a lawyer or not.
I did not know for sure at that time whether he was, simply because I had no way of knowing whether he was represented or not. I hadn't talked to anybody who was really informed, and I called Mr. Wade. He said he didn't know for sure whether he was or not, as far as he knew he hadn't been contacted by any lawyer who purported to represent Oswald. I asked him whether or not either he or anybody in his office had been advised that Oswald wanted a lawyer, or had made a request for a lawyer, and he said as far as he knew he had not asked for a lawyer. I asked him too, as he was going up there, and I asked him if Oswald requested a lawyer and didn't have a lawyer would he tell him that the Dallas Bar Association would get a lawyer if he needed one.
By that time I had time to think about what I thought my obligation should be, and realizing that under the circumstances maybe some people might overlook the fact that Oswald had rights that needed to be protected at the same time, and if he didn't have a lawyer, regardless of what the legal obligation was to appoint him a lawyer, we, the bar association, ought to look into the matter.
Mr. Wade said he was going to go up there later on in the evening and he would talk to his assistants who were in closer contact than he was, and if Oswald wanted a lawyer—asked for a lawyer or wanted a lawyer appointed—he would tell him of my conversation. I then called Glen King, and a captain on the police force that I knew. I used to work for the city attorney's office, and still represent the city credit union and have a brother on the police force, so, I have known many of these people for many years. I called Captain King and asked him whether or not Oswald was represented by an attorney, if he knew if there was an attorney up there, or anybody who had been up there representing him, and Captain King said that as far as he knew there had been no one representing him, and as far as he knew, Oswald had not asked for a lawyer. He had not asked for the right to call a lawyer, and—or had not asked that a lawyer be furnished to him—and Captain King said, "If he does, I am certainly going to call you and let you know, because we want to be sure if he wants a lawyer he gets one. We don't want it to be a situation of anybody saying that we deprived him of the right to have a lawyer."
I said, "Well, Glen, if you know at any time that he asks for a lawyer, or wants a lawyer, or needs a lawyer, will you tell him that you have talked to me, as president of the bar association, and that I have offered to get him a lawyer if he wants one."
And Glen said, "Well, I'll just throw it back to you. You come down and talk to him. I would be glad to have you talk to him."
I said, "I didn't know whether I wanted to or not at this point." I hadn't quite decided at that point whether we could do something about it, and I didn't know whether Oswald had his own attorney, but I told Captain King if I decided to take him up on his offer I would come and see him.
It was about 3:30 or 4 o'clock. By that time I had talked to a criminal lawyer, I had talked to Mr. Wade, I had talked to these two lawyer friends of mine in trying to decide what, if anything I should do.
Up to that time I had not been told by any of these people that Oswald had asked for a lawyer, or been denied a lawyer, or even knew whether he had a lawyer. None of them knew for sure. I didn't—I then received a call from another lawyer who was a professor out at S.M.U., and he wanted to know whether or not the bar association was doing anything about getting a lawyer for Oswald. I told him what had transpired, what I had done, and I hadn't decided what should be done at this time, if anything by me, as president of the bar association.
He seemed to think that it would be advisable and would be helpful if I would go up and satisfy myself personally as to whether or not Oswald had any lawyer, wanted a lawyer or was asking for a lawyer and hadn't been able to get one, and I told him that I had not decided what to do, so, I sat around anddecided if it had to be done. It seemed like enough time had gone by, and enough uncertainty among the people I talked to as to whether or not he had a lawyer or had asked for a lawyer that I decided I might as well go up and talk to him, so, I cleaned up and went on up to the city hall. That was probably 5:30 or so in the afternoon.
Mr.Stern. City hall is where he was confined?
Mr.Nichols. City hall in Dallas, where Oswald was confined. Having worked there I knew where the chief's office was.
I knew Captain King, the administrative assistant to the chief, and his office was in the same place so, I went to the third floor of the city hall, now called the Police and Courts Building.
The building in which the police department is located and the jail is located, and where I assumed Oswald was at that time. I went up to the third floor, and when I got off the elevator there was just a whole mob of reporters and photographers and television cameras and cables and so forth stretched out on that floor. Cables running in both directions, and I went down into the chief's office, which is the eastern end of the building, and when I went in there, there were a number of people in his office, in the reception room, three or four people back in the chief's office, Chief Curry's office, a number of people, and I asked one of the officers in the reception room if Captain King was there and he said, "Well, he didn't think so."
About that time Chief Curry looked up and saw me, and he knew me and motioned me in, and I went in there and he introduced me to one of the FBI agents who was there, and I told him I was up there as president of the bar association looking for Captain King. I had talked to him earlier and I had come up there to see whether or not Mr. Oswald had a lawyer, or needed a lawyer, or wanted the Dallas Bar Association to do anything.
The chief said that he was glad to see me and would take me up to see Oswald himself and, so, we immediately left his office and started to another part of the building, and he asked me where I wanted to talk to him. If I wanted to be taken to a room or some place, or what would be convenient with me, and I told him that any place would be all—I just wanted to visit with the man and see what his situation was with regard to him having a lawyer. So, we then went through a door on the third floor and got into the elevator and went up to the sixth floor, and the chief again asked me where I wanted to talk to him. I said, "Well, just any place."
By that time we had gotten to a portion of the jail that was separated by bars and a door. Beyond that door were three separate cells, and there was an officer seated outside one, and then we went through the first door and got to that point and Mr. Oswald was in the center of the three cells, no one being in the other two, and there was an officer seated outside there. The chief had the officer open the door, and he introduced me to Oswald, and told him my name and said that I was the president of the Dallas Bar Association and had come up to see him about whether or not he needed or wanted a lawyer, and then the chief stepped back and—I don't really know how far away. He was at least—he was far enough removed where I couldn't observe him or see him there in the cell. The officer stayed just right outside the door there. I reintroduced myself to Oswald and told him my name, and that I was president of the Dallas bar, and that I had come up to see him about whether or not he had a lawyer, or needed a lawyer, or wanted a lawyer, and suggested that he sit down.
So, he sat on one bunk and I sat on the other. Maybe 3 or 4 feet apart. When I got there he was lying on a bunk, and then he stood up when I came in and then he sat on one bunk and I sat on the other, much as you and I are seated here, only actually, a little bit closer, and I asked him if he had a lawyer, and he said, "Well, he really didn't know what it was all about, that he was—had been incarcerated, and kept incommunicado," and I said, "Well, I have come up to see whether or not you want a lawyer, because as I understand—" I am not exactly sure what I said there, or whether he said something about not knowing what happened to President Kennedy, or I said that I understood that he was arrested for the shot that killed the President, and I don't remember who said what after that. This is a little bit vague.
I had covered that point in detail, and I don't recall exactly, but in any event, our conversation was such that I informed him that I was there to see whether or not he had a lawyer, or wanted a lawyer, and he said—he asked me first did I know a lawyer in New York named John Abt, and I don't know if it is A-b-t, or A-p-t.
Mr.Stern. I believe it is A-b-t.
Mr.Nichols. I believe it is. In New York City, I said I didn't know him, and he said, "Well, I would like to have him to represent me," and at some period I believe prior to that, either in talking to the police, or talking to—must have been talking to either Captain King or the chief—I had been told that some effort had been made to get hold of Mr. Abt, and that he was in Connecticut at his home, and maybe, and I have forgotten who said who was trying to get ahold of him. At least, I did vaguely know that someone was trying to get ahold of him, but I told Mr. Oswald I didn't know him. He said, "Well, that is the man he would like to have represent him." Then he asked me if I knew any lawyers who were members of the American Civil Liberties Union, and he said, "Well, I am a member of that organization, and I would like to have somebody who is a member of that organization represent me." And I said, "I'm sorry, I don't know anybody who is a member of that organization."
Although, as it turned out later, a number of lawyers I know are members. Two or three of them called me later. He said, "Well, if I can't get either one of those, and if I can——"
Mr.Stern. That iseither——
Mr.Nichols. "Either Mr. Abt or someone who is a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, and if I can find a lawyer here who believes in anything I believe in, and believes as I believe, and believes in my innocence"—then paused a little bit, and went on a little bit and said, "as much as he can, I might let him represent me."
I said, "What I am interested in knowing is right now, do you want me or the Dallas Bar Association to try to get you a lawyer?"
He said, "No, not now."
He said, "You might come back next week, and if I don't get some of these other people to represent me, I might ask you to get somebody to represent me."
I said, "Well, now, all I want to do is to make it clear to you, and to me, whether or not you want me or the Dallas Bar Association to do anything about getting a lawyer right now."
And he said "No."
I was satisfied in my own mind that he knew what he was doing, and that he didn't want me or the Dallas Bar Association to do anything right now. So, I left, and as I left the chief asked me whether or not I wanted to make a statement to the press, and I said, "Well, I don't know whether I do or not. I don't know whether it is the thing to do or not." And he said, "Well, they are going to be right outside the door there, and if you want to say anything this would be an opportunity to do it."
He said, "Incidentally, I am very glad you came up here. We don't want any question coming up about us refusing to let him have a lawyer. As far as I know, he has never asked for one. He has never asked to call one."
And I believe the chief mentioned that Mr. Abt's name, but he said, "He has never asked us to call him."
He said, "Do you think we have an obligation?" And I said, "I don't know."
He said, "I am glad that you came down and talked to him. At least that takes a problem off of us about not furnishing him a lawyer."
And so, we—about that time we stepped out of the door and there was just a whole swarm of photographers and cameramen standing right there. Right outside the door on the third floor. They came out in the third floor, reached back down in the third floor, and the chief told them who I was, and what I had been up there for, and oh, for 4 or 5 minutes, what turned out to be live television interview, whether or not—they asked me if I thought he was guilty, and if he had admitted anything, and I told them that I didn't ask him, and he didn't tell me, and they merely wanted to know the reason I was up here, andthat interview is something, I assume, that you have, or will be made available. I don't remember exactly what transpired, and then—but they asked me what his attitude was, whether he was belligerent and—or scared, and to me, he appeared to be neither belligerent nor scared. He appeared to be a man that was pretty calm, I thought, under the circumstances. He appeared to me that he knew where he was and pretty much what his rights were with regard to being represented, and he knew apparently—at least the conversation was that if he didn't get somebody to represent him that he wanted that he could always fall back on the bar association, or somebody, and I had told him that I would see him next week if he wanted me to, and I satisfied myself at least, to the extent, that the man appeared to know what he was doing. He did not appear to be irrational. He appeared to be calm. He turned down my offer of help, and I felt like at that point that was all I needed to do, and this was later Saturday afternoon, and I had no inkling that anything else, except maybe that the next week if he didn't get a lawyer I might hear from him, or check into it, and that's all I know about Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr.Stern. That's quite a complete statement. Let's just cover a few details. What was his physical condition, as you observed it?
Mr.Nichols. Well, he had a little scratch, or bruise over one eye. I have forgotten whether over the left or right, but other than that, as I recall, there were no indication of any other injuries or marks on him that I could tell. He was dressed, I believe, in a white T-shirt and slacks, and appeared to me to be in normal condition. I mean, there was nothing obviously wrong with him from a physical standpoint, as I could observe.
Mr.Stern. Did he seem well rested, or tired?
Mr.Nichols. No; he seemed all right. When I went in there he was lying on his back and he got up and he didn't—he looked like he was calm, and was rested, and it—didn't appear to have—now this is a guess, and my own observation, did not appear to me to have been mistreated. I was interested in observing whether or not he—it looked like he had been mistreated, because, as a lawyer, I anticipate perhaps that he—if he had been mistreated, or might claim he had been mistreated it was something I should have observed at that time, and I observed nothing to indicate that.