Mr.Johnson. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Do you know or remember what portion of the sixth floor this was?
Mr.Johnson. Well, yes; they were underneath a window right near a window.
Mr.Belin. On what side of the building was the window on, north, east, south, or west?
Mr.Johnson. That is east. The window is actually on the south side of the building, and the window is the farthest east.
Mr.Belin. The window would be the furtherest east window on the south side of the building, is that correct?
Mr.Johnson. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Would you call that the southeast corner of that floor?
Mr.Johnson. Yes.
Mr.Belin. How soon after the hulls were found did you go over to see them?
Mr.Johnson. I couldn't say.
Mr.Belin. Were you there when they actually found it?
Mr.Johnson. Well, Captain Fritz was already there. There is a possibility—I am pretty sure they already found that when we got up there.
Mr.Belin. What did Captain Fritz instruct you to do?
Mr.Johnson. To remain there and protect the scene.
Mr.Belin. All right. Handing you what has already been marked "RLS Deposition Exhibit G"—the RLS stands for R. L. Studebaker—I would ask you to state if you know, whether or not these shell cases appear to be in the same position as they were when you saw them there?
Mr.Johnson. There is only two that show in that photograph, that I see.
Mr.Belin. Well, I see one, two right by the window. You see those two?
Mr.Johnson. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Then there is one over here, which would be the west, by a box that is marked from "Scott Foresman & Company." See that there?
Mr.Johnson. Yes, I see it. All I can say, at the time these hulls were mentioned, I went over there and looked. I don't remember them being that far out.
Mr.Belin. What I am asking is your best recollection. Let's take the hulls one by one. There are two hulls that appear to be right next to the bricks?
Mr.Johnson. Next to the wall; yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Do they appear to be in the approximate position when you first saw them?
Mr.Johnson. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Does the one which is the farthest to the east appear to be as close to the next one lying at the brick wall as it was?
Mr.Johnson. Well, of course, I couldn't remember exactly how far. It was my impression that they were all three next to the wall. I could have been wrong.
Mr.Belin. Your impression, at least the best of your recollection is that this third shell which is in the picture next to the book carton, was closer to the wall?
Mr.Johnson. I thought they were all three closer to the wall.
Mr.Belin. When Captain Fritz told you to preserve the scene, what did you do?
Mr.Johnson. Now you got to remember he told L. D. Montgomery, my partner, and I to preserve the scene, and we remained there near that corner.
Now over to the right, which would be back toward the west of the window, there was a lunch sack—a brown paper bag—and some remnants of fried chicken, and a pop bottle.
And I stayed closer to that pop bottle while we were waiting for the crime lab to finish their work.
Mr.Belin. Now there was a sack and a pop bottle. Was there anything else other than the sack and the pop bottle?
Mr.Johnson. And the remnants of fried chicken.
Mr.Belin. The remnants of fried chicken, was that right by that window, or was it by another set of windows?
Mr.Johnson. That was by some other window.
Mr.Belin. Now there are, I believe, on the south side of the building, seven pairs of windows?
Mr.Johnson. I didn't count them. I couldn't say.
Mr.Belin. Would you say it was toward the east, or the west, or the center?
Mr.Johnson. Where the sack was?
Mr.Belin. Yes.
Mr.Johnson. It would be toward the west. I believe the next set of windows to my—I am pretty sure it was.
Mr.Belin. You said it would be in the second pair of windows counting from the east wall?
Mr.Johnson. To the west.
Mr.Belin. Is where you found it, was it between the second and the third set of windows or between the first and the second, or right by the second?
Mr.Johnson. Right by the second pair of windows.
Mr.Belin. Now you stayed over there?
Mr.Johnson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. And your partner, Detective Montgomery, stayed over by the first pair of windows?
Mr.Johnson. By the corner.
Mr.Belin. By the corner window, southwest corner of the sixth floor?
Were you there when Lieutenant Day and Studebaker came in to take pictures?
Mr.Johnson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Do you know of your own personal knowledge whether anything had been moved prior to the time that they took the first set of pictures up there?
Mr.Johnson. No, sir; as far as I know, they hadn't been moved. They weren't supposed to have been, and that was our job to keep them out of there, and nobody came in there, I am pretty sure.
Mr.Belin. All right. Now, a rifle was found on the sixth floor, was it not?
Mr.Johnson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. When the rifle was found, did you leave your post?
Mr.Johnson. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. What about Detective Montgomery?
Mr.Johnson. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Did you find anything else up in the southeast corner of the sixth floor? We have talked about the rifle, we have talked about the shells, we have talked about the chicken bones and the lunch sack and the pop bottle by that second pair of windows. Anything else?
Mr.Johnson. Yes, sir. We found this brown paper sack or case. It was made out of heavy wrapping paper. Actually, it looked similar to the paper that those books was wrapped in. It was just a long narrow paper bag.
Mr.Belin. Where was this found?
Mr.Johnson. Right in the corner of the building.
Mr.Belin. On what floor?
Mr.Johnson. Sixth floor.
Mr.Belin. Which corner?
Mr.Johnson. Southeast corner.
Mr.Belin. Do you know who found it?
Mr.Johnson. I know that the first I saw of it, L. D. Montgomery, my partner, picked it up off the floor, and it was folded up, and he unfolded it.
Mr.Belin. When it was folded up, was it folded once or refolded?
Mr.Johnson. It was folded and then refolded. It was a fairly small package.
Mr.Belin. Now do you know where this sack was with relation to the first window, counting from the east portion of the south side of the building?
Mr.Johnson. It still would be over toward the east from the windows.
Mr.Belin. It would be east of the windows?
Mr.Johnson. Yes; right at the corner. Of course, those windows are not too far from the east wall, but that sack was right in the corner.
Mr.Belin. Handing you what has been marked "RLS Deposition Exhibit"—that appears to be G—it is picture No. 26, there are some pipes that appear to be in that picture, is that correct? Some vertical pipes?
Mr.Johnson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Where would the sack have been found with reference to those vertical pipes? These vertical pipes, I believe, on the south side of the sixth floor near the east corner?
Mr.Johnson. That sack would be over near the corner of the building here [pointing].
Mr.Belin. Would all the sack be east of the pipes, or would part of the sack be sticking out west of the pipes?
Mr.Johnson. The way it was folded, it would all have to be over here.
Mr.Belin. Your testimony then is that all the sack would have been east of the pipes. Is that correct?
Mr.Johnson. I would say that the sack was folded up here and it was east of the pipes in the corner. To the best of my memory, that is where my partner picked it up. I was standing there when he picked it up.
Mr.Belin. You were standing there when he picked it up?
Mr.Johnson. Yes, because the Crime Lab was already finished where I was, and I had already walked off to where he was.
Mr.Belin. Now there was a book carton located, one standing by itself in that picture—it would be located northeast of the pipes. Is that correct?
Mr.Johnson. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Did the sack appear to be as long as that book carton was?
Mr.Johnson. I didn't compare it to that book carton.
Mr.Belin. Let me ask you this. Do you remember book cartons there to the north of where the sack was found?
Mr.Johnson. Yes, sir. Actually, these cartons were stacked all the way around this thing.
I don't know, this book carton right here, unless that is the one that is stacked there, if I had a picture showing this whole scene—you see, there was some other cartons stacked in front of this window. Now I don't know whether this is the one that was behind them or not. This might be just one sitting out over there out of the way.
Mr.Belin. We don't have a picture here that shows all of the cartons, at least I don't have it right here at the time we are taking this deposition, that shows all of the cartons, but letme——
Mr.Johnson. Just from memory, I would say that that sack would be a little longer than those book cartons.
Mr.Belin. All right, what is the fact as to whether or not the penned rectangle on RLS Deposition Exhibit G—does any portion of that rectangle represent the place where the paper was found, assuming that is the southeast corner?
Mr.Johnson. It looks like somebody penned that in to show the sack was laying there. That would show it unfolded.
Mr.Belin. Well, what you would say then is that the penned portion is actually longer than the sack before it was unfolded, is that what you are saying?
Mr.Johnson. Yes. It shows to be here, if you are taking this as actual size.
Mr.Belin. Right. Of course, this is photographed at an angle and sometimes this can be inaccurate insofar as perspective. But would this penned in be the approximate same distance from the south wall that you saw the sack?
Mr.Johnson. Well, I couldn't say exact distance. All I know is my partner picked that up right out of that corner, and how far it was from the wall in either direction, I don't know.
Mr.Belin. Would it be somewhere in the location of where the penned in rectangle is on RLS Deposition Exhibit G?
Mr.Johnson. Yes; it would be in this corner, in the southeast corner of the building, and there were some pipes on that side. It would be in that corner—in the southeast corner of that building.
Mr.Belin. All right, is there anything else you can remember about that sack?
Mr.Johnson. No; other than like I said, my partner picked it up and we unfolded it and it appeared to be about the same shape as a rifle case would be. In other words, we made the remark that that is what he probably brought it in.
That is why, the reason we saved it.
Mr.Belin. Did you find anything else up in the sixth floor that you feel might be relevant insofar as the investigation of the assassination is concerned?
Mr.Johnson. No; I don't remember anything right off. Anything else that was preserved as evidence?
Mr.Belin. Yes.
Mr.Johnson. Other than I know we kept the lunch sack and the Dr. Pepper bottle.
Mr.Belin. You did keep the lunch sack?
Mr.Johnson. Sir?
Mr.Belin. You did keep the lunch sack?
Mr.Johnson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Where is it?
Mr.Johnson. We turned it into the crime lab.
Mr.Belin. You mean your police department crime lab?
Mr.Johnson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever dust it for prints or not, or do you know?
Mr.Johnson. Well, now, the lunch sack itself, sir?
Mr.Belin. Yes.
Mr.Johnson. I don't know whether they did or not. Now that sack we are talking about, it was dusted right there at the scene.
Mr.Belin. That is the long paper sack you found in the southeast corner? I mean as far as the lunch sack is concerned?
Mr.Johnson. No, the lunch sack, I don't know. We turned it in, but I never did hear after that what he did with it. I am pretty sure they did use it for something.
Mr.Belin. Anything else you can think of that is relevant in any way whatsoever to the investigation of the assassination?
Mr.Johnson. No; I don't remember anything else.
Mr.Belin. Well, we surely want to thank you for your cooperation, Mr. Johnson.
You have the right, if you desire, to read the transcription of your testimony here and then sign the deposition, or you can waive the signing and have the court reporter send it to us directly in Washington. Do you care to read it, or do you want to waive the signing of it?
Mr.Johnson. I'd better read it.
Mr.Belin. All right, you will be contacted when it is ready.
The testimony of Seymour Weitzman was taken at 2:15 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Mr. Weitzman, I'm Joe Ball and this is Lillian Johnson, the court reporter. Will you please stand and raise your right hand?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Weitzman. I do.
Mr.Ball. Will you state your name?
Mr.Weitzman. Seymour Weitzman.
Mr.Ball. What is your occupation?
Mr.Weitzman. Deputy constable, Dallas County.
Mr.Ball. What is the location of your place of business?
Mr.Weitzman. Precinct 1 which is the old courthouse, third floor, room 351.
Mr.Ball. Where were you born?
Mr.Weitzman. Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Ball. Were you educated here in this State?
Mr.Weitzman. Partially here and Indiana.
Mr.Ball. How far did you go through school?
Mr.Weitzman. I went through college, graduated in engineering, 1945.
Mr.Ball. When did you come to Texas?
Mr.Weitzman. Do you mean back to Texas?
Mr.Ball. Back to Texas.
Mr.Weitzman. Right after the service was over and when I came out of the service.
Mr.Ball. Did you graduate from school before you went into the service?
Mr.Weitzman. I finished up after I received my discharge. I went back to Indiana to engineering school in South Bend and finished my degree in 1945.
Mr.Ball. What school?
Mr.Weitzman. Allison Division of General Motors Engineering School.
Mr.Ball. What did you do when you went to Dallas?
Mr.Weitzman. Went in business for myself.
Mr.Ball. What kind of business?
Mr.Weitzman. Dresses, garments, ladies garments.
Mr.Ball. What did you do after that?
Mr.Weitzman. I went on the road as district supervisor and manager for Holly's Dress Shops in New York, 115 Fifth Avenue, and I supervised 26 stores for them for approximately 15 years.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you do?
Mr.Weitzman. I took over as general manager of the Lamont Corp. which is a discount operation and the headquarters, which was Galveston, Tex. We had stores in Dallas, Fort Worth, Louisiana, Phoenix and Tucson, Ariz. At the end of 1960, I closed up all the stores, retired from the discount operation and went to work for Robie Love in Dallas County, precinct 1.
Mr.Ball. You've been there ever since as deputy constable?
Mr.Weitzman. That's right.
Mr.Ball. On November 22, 1963, around noon, where were you?
Mr.Weitzman. I was standing on the corner of Main and Houston.
Mr.Ball. Were you alone?
Mr.Weitzman. No, sir; I was with another deputy, Bill Hutton.
Mr.Ball. A deputy constable?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir; he and I were standing there.
Mr.Ball. Did you see the President's car pass?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir; we did. We watched the President pass and we turned and started back to the courthouse when we heard the shots.
Mr.Ball. You say you turned and were starting back to the courthouse—what courthouse and what is the location of that courthouse?
Mr.Weitzman. Sitting on Main, Houston, Record and so forth. We were at the back side and we turned around and were going into the Main Street entrance. We made maybe three or four steps when we heard what we thought at that time was either a rifle shot or a firecracker, I mean at that second.
Mr.Ball. How many shots did you hear?
Mr.Weitzman. Three distinct shots.
Mr.Ball. How were they spaced?
Mr.Weitzman. First one, then the second two seemed to be simultaneously.
Mr.Ball. You mean the first and then there was a pause?
Mr.Weitzman. There was a little period in between the second and third shot.
Mr.Ball. What was the longest, between the first and second or the second and third shot; which had the longest time lapse in there?
Mr.Weitzman. Between the first and second shot.
Mr.Ball. What did you do then?
Mr.Weitzman. I immediately ran toward the President's car. Of course, it was speeding away and somebody said the shots or the firecrackers, whatever it was at that time, we still didn't know the President was shot, came from the wall. I immediately scaled that wall.
Mr.Ball. What is the location of that wall?
Mr.Weitzman. It would be between the railroad overpass and I can't remember the name of that little street that runs off Elm; it's cater-corner—the section there between the—what do you call it—the monument section?
Mr.Ball. That's where Elm actually dead ends?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir; I scaled the wall and, apparently, my hands grabbed steampipes. I burned them.
Mr.Ball. Did you go into the railroad yards?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you notice in the railroad yards?
Mr.Weitzman. We noticed numerous kinds of footprints that did not make sense because they were going different directions.
Mr.Ball. Were there other people there besides you?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir; other officers, Secret Service as well, and somebody started, there was something red in the street and I went back over the wall and somebody brought me a piece of what he thought to be a firecracker and it turned out to be, I believe, I wouldn't quote this, but I turned it over to one of the Secret Service men and I told them it should go to the lab because it looked to me like human bone. I later found out it was supposedly a portion of the President's skull.
Mr.Ball. That you picked up off the street?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What part of the street did you pick this up?
Mr.Weitzman. As the President's car was going off, it would be on the left-hand side of the street. It would bethe——
Mr.Ball. The left-hand sidefacing——
Mr.Weitzman. That would be the south side of the street.
Mr.Ball. It was on the south side of the street. Was it in the street?
Mr.Weitzman. It was in the street itself.
Mr.Ball. On the pavement?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Anywhere near the curb?
Mr.Weitzman. Approximately, oh, I would say 8 to 12 inches from the curb, something like that.
Mr.Ball. Off the record.
(Off record discussion.)
Mr.Ball. What did you do after that?
Mr.Weitzman. After that, we entered the building and started to search floor to floor and we started on the first floor, second floor, third floor and on up, when we got up to the fifth or sixth floor, I forget, I believe it was the sixth floor, the chief deputy or whoever was in charge of the floor, I forget the officer's name, from the sheriff's office, said he wanted that floor torn apart. He wanted that gun and it was there somewhere, so myself and another officer from the sheriff's department, I can't remember his name, he and I proceeded untilwe——
Mr.Ball. Was his name Boone?
Mr.Weitzman. That is correct, Boone and I, and as he was looking over the rear section of the building, I would say the northwest corner, I was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time he was looking on the top side and we saw the gun, I would say, simultaneously and I said, "There it is" and he started hollering, "We got it." It was covered with boxes. It was well protected as far as the naked eye because I would venture to say eight or nine of us stumbled over that gun a couple times before we thoroughly searched the building.
Mr.Ball. Did you touch it?
Mr.Weitzman. No, sir; we made a man-tight barricade until the crime lab came up and removed the gun itself.
Mr.Ball. The crime lab from the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Lieutenant Day and Captain Fritz?
Mr.Weitzman. I'm not sure what the lieutenant's name was, but I remember Captain Fritz.
Mr.Ball. Did you see Captain Fritz remove anything from the gun?
Mr.Weitzman. No, sir; I did not.
Mr.Ball. What did you do after that?
Mr.Weitzman. After that, I returned to my office and I was called down to the city that afternoon later to make a statement on what I had seen.
Mr.Ball. I have three pictures here which I have marked, respectively, D, E, F. I show you D first. Does that look anything like the location where you found the gun?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir; this is taken the opposite side the flat I was looking under.
Mr.Ball. Looking from the top side of this picture?
Mr.Weitzman. Well, I would be looking over—Boone was looking the top side; I was looking under the flat. We were looking over everything. I was behind this section of books. I believe there were more books in here [indicating].
Mr.Ball. What do you mean "in here"?
Mr.Weitzman. In this area [indicating] because at the time we found the gun there were no boxes protruding over the gun.
Mr.Ball. In this area, you mean protruding over the gun?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir; it was more hidden than there.
Mr.Ball. I show you the picture marked E. Does that look anything like the area where the gun was found?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr.Ball. I show you the picture marked F. Is that another picture of the same area?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir; as well as I remember, the gun was right in here [indicating].
Mr.Ball. Would you mind making a mark there with a pen? That is on F. Draw on Exhibit F, draw an arrow. The arrow in ink on F shows the location?
Mr.Weitzman. Down on the floor.
Mr.Ball. Shows the location of the gun on the floor?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Was there anything between the place the gun was found; were there any boxes between where the gun was found and the stairway?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir; there was a row of boxes between the stairway and the gun because we came up the stairway and we couldn't help but see it if it was in the open.
Mr.Ball. Take E here and make a mark on E as to the location of the place where the gun was found.
Mr.Weitzman. Same area.
Mr.Ball. The same area and the arrow marks the place where the gun was found?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Off the record.
(Off record discussion.)
Mr.Ball. In the statement that you made to the Dallas Police Department that afternoon, you referred to the rifle as a 7.65 Mauser bolt action?
Mr.Weitzman. In a glance, that's what it looked like.
Mr.Ball. That's what it looked like—did you say that or someone else say that?
Mr.Weitzman. No; I said that. I thought it was one.
Mr.Ball. Are you fairly familiar with rifles?
Mr.Weitzman. Fairly familiar because I was in the sporting goods business awhile.
Mr.Ball. What branch of service were you in?
Mr.Weitzman. U.S. Air Force.
Mr.Ball. Did you handle rifles?
Mr.Weitzman. Mostly Thompson machine guns and pistols.
Mr.Ball. In the Air Force, what were you?
Mr.Weitzman. I started out as a flying sergeant.
Mr.Ball. You flew the plane?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. How did you end up?
Mr.Weitzman. I ended up flying them; ended up in a prison camp.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Weitzman. I was overseas in Japan.
Mr.Ball. You also said at the time the rifle was found at 1:22 p.m., is that correct?
Mr.Weitzman. I believe that is correct. I wouldn't commit myself there because I am not sure; I'm not positive that was it.
Mr.Ball. In this statement, it says Captain Fritz took charge of the rifle and ejected one live round from the chamber.
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. He did eject one live round?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir; he did eject one live round, one live round, yes, sir. You said remove anything from the rifle; I was not considering that a shell.
Mr.Ball. I understand that. Now, in your statement to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, you gave a description of the rifle, how it looked.
Mr.Weitzman. I said it was a Mauser-type action, didn't I?
Mr.Ball. Mauser bolt action.
Mr.Weitzman. And at the time I looked at it, I believe I said it was 2.5 scope on it and I believe I said it was a Weaver but it wasn't; it turned out to be anything but a Weaver, but that was at a glance.
Mr.Ball. You also said it was a gun metal color?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Gray or blue?
Mr.Weitzman. Blue metal.
Mr.Ball. And the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn, is that worn?
Mr.Weitzman. That's right.
Mr.Ball. And the wooden portion of the rifle was what color?
Mr.Weitzman. It was a brown, or I would say not a mahogany brown but dark oak brown.
Mr.Ball. Rough wood, was it?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir; rough wood.
Mr.Ball. And it was equipped with a scope?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Was it of Japanese manufacture?
Mr.Weitzman. I believe it was a 2.5 Weaver at the time I looked at it. I didn't look that close at it; it just looked like a 2.5 but it turned out to be a Japanese scope, I believe.
Mr.Ball. Didn't you, when you went over to the railroad yard, talk to some yardman?
Mr.Weitzman. I asked a yardman if he had seen or heard anything during the passing of the President. He said he thought he saw somebody throw something through a bush and that's when I went back over the fence and that's when I found the portion of the skull. I thought it was a firecracker portion; that's what we first were looking for. This was before we knew the President was dead.
Mr.Ball. Did the yardman tell you where he thought the noise came from?
Mr.Weitzman. Yes, sir; he pointed out the wall section where there was a bunch of shrubbery and I believe that's to the right where I went over the wall where the steampipe was; that would be going north back toward the jail.
Mr.Ball. I think that's all. Do you have any desire to read this over and sign it or will you waive signature?
Mr.Weitzman. I will waive my signature. I don't think the Government is going to alter my statement any.
The testimony of Capt. W. R. Westbrook was taken at 9 a.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.
Mr.Ball. Would you please stand up and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Westbrook. I do.
Mr.Ball. Will you state your name, please?
Mr.Westbrook. W. R. Westbrook.
Mr.Ball. And what is your address?
Mr.Westbrook. At the present time it is 7642 Daingerfield, Apartment C, and another address is Route 2, Quinton. I live at both of them.
Mr.Ball. What is your business or occupation?
Mr.Westbrook. Captain of police.
Mr.Ball. The Commission has asked us to put something in the record about everybody's past experience. Can you tell me about where you were born—they don't get to take a look at you, so they would like to read about you.
Mr.Westbrook. I was born in Benton, Ark., November 9, 1917. I was a farm boy and came to Dallas in 1937, and went on the police department June 13, 1941, and I served as a radio patrolman for approximately 4 years, promoted to sergeant, and was a sergeant for about 6 or 7 years, and was promoted to captain in 1952, and have held that position since.
Mr.Ball. What are your duties in general, captain?
Mr.Westbrook. At the present time I am personnel officer. We conduct all background investigations of applicants, both civilian and police, and then we make—we investigate all personnel complaints—not all of them, but the major ones.
Mr.Ball. Do you wear a uniform?
Mr.Westbrook. Well, it is optional. I don't wear one.
Mr.Ball. On November 22, 1963, were you assigned any special duty?
Mr.Westbrook. No, sir; other than just my own routine duties.
Mr.Ball. What were those duties that day?
Mr.Westbrook. 8:15 to 5:15.
Mr.Ball. And were you in uniform on that day?
Mr.Westbrook. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where were you when you heard the President had been shot?
Mr.Westbrook. I was in my office and Mrs. Kinney, one of the dispatchers, came into the office and told us, and of course—it's the same as everybody says—we didn't believe it until a second look at her and I realized it was so, and so, there's a little confusion right here because everybody became rather excited right quick, but somebody, and I don't know who it was, came into my office and said they needed some more men at this Texas Depository Building.
You know, I didn't review my report before I came over here—I didn't have a chance. I just came off of vacation and they hit me with this this morning as soon as I got to the office. I can't recall whether or not it was the dispatcher's office, but I think it was—somebody in the dispatcher's office had told us they needed some more men at the Texas Depository Building, so I sent the men that were in my office, which were then Sergeants Stringer and Carver, and possibly Joe Fields and McGee, if they were in there—it seems like McGee was, and I think—I sent them to the building, and then I walked on down the hall spreading the word and telling the other people that they needed some men down there, and practically everybody left immediately. I sat around a while—really not knowing what to do because of the—almost all of the commanding officers and supervisors were out of the city hall and I finally couldn't stand it any longer, so I started to the Texas Depository Building, and believe it or not, I walked. There wasn't a car available, and so I walked from the city hall to the Depository Building, and I would stop on the way down where there would be a group of people listening to somebody's transistor radio and I would stop and catch a few false reports, you might say, at that time, until I reached the building.
Do you want me to continue on?
Mr.Ball. Go right ahead, sir.
Mr.Westbrook. After we reached the building, or after I reached the building,I contacted my sergeant Sgt. R. D. Stringer, and he was standing in front and so then I went into the building to help start the search and I was on the first floor and I had walked down an aisle and opened a door onto an outside loading dock, and when I came out on this dock, one of the men hollered and said there had been an officer killed in Oak Cliff.
Well, then, of course, I ran to my radio because I am the personnel officer and that then became, of course, my greatest interest right at that time, and so, Sergeant Stringer and I and some patrolman—I don't recall his name—then drove to the immediate vicinity of where Officer Tippit had been shot and killed.
Of course, the body was already gone, the squad car was still there, and on one occasion as we were approaching this squad car, a call came over the radio that a suspicious person had been sighted running into the public library at Marsalis and Jefferson, so we immediately went to that location and it was a false—it was just one of the actually—it was one of the employees of the library who had heard the news somewhere on the radio and he was running to tell the other group about Kennedy.
So, we returned to the scene and here I met Bob Barrett, the FBI agent, and Sergeant Stringer and Barrett and I were together, and then an eyewitness to the shooting of the officer from across the street, a lady, came to the car, and she was telling us how this happened.
Mr.Ball. Where was your car parked at that time?
Mr.Westbrook. It wasn't my car—we didn't have one. I don't know where this officer went after he let us out at the scene.
Mr.Ball. An officer drove you down to the scene?
Mr.Westbrook. An officer drove us to the scene.
Mr.Ball. Where were you when this lady came up who was an eyewitness?
Mr.Westbrook. We were at the squad car—Tippit's squad car—it had never been moved.
Mr.Ball. You were near 10th and Patton?
Mr.Westbrook. And she was telling us what had occurred.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember her name?
Mr.Westbrook. No; the other officers got it.
Mr.Ball. Was it a Mrs. Markham?
Mr.Westbrook. It could have been, sir; I don't recall, because I directed someone there to be sure and get her name for the report, but she lived directly across the street, and she told us—or was in the process of telling us how it occurred—what she had seen, when someone hollered a patrolman hollered—"It's just come over the radio that they've got a suspicious person in the Texas Theatre."
Then, Sergeant Stringer, I, and Agent Barrett got in another squad car, and I don't know what officer was driving this one, but then when we arrived and were approaching the theatre, I directed the patrolman to turn down into the alley instead of going around to the front because I figured there would be a lot of cars at the front. There were two or three at the back.
So, I and Barrett—Stringer went to another door, and I and Barrett—we stopped at the first one—we got out and walked to this first entrance that was nearest us, and as we walked into the door we met an employee of the theatre.
Again, I do not know his name, but it was taken, and he pointed—I don't think I said anything to him—I think he told me, he said, "The man you are looking for—" Now, right here, Barrett and I became separated for a short minute or two. I think he was on the other side of the stage, and I'm not for sure, but this boy reported—he pointed to a man that was sitting about the middle—the middle row of seats pretty close to the back and he said, "That is the man you are looking for."
And I started toward him and I had taken about two or three steps—down the steps.
Mr.Ball. Down the steps from the stage?
Mr.Westbrook. From the stage—yes, sir. Now, I feel sure, and at the time I think I knew—I'm not sure if I included that in the report, but I think Barrett was going down the other steps. I think we separated right there and he got on the other side.
Mr.Ball. Which side were you on?
Mr.Westbrook. I was facing the audience—I would be on the right side.
Mr.Ball. Facing the audience—that would be on the right side?
Mr.Westbrook. I was on the right side.
Mr.Ball. And if you were facing the screen you would have been on the left?
Mr.Westbrook. I would have been on the left.
Mr.Ball. The man that was pointed out to you was sitting next to the aisle, if you were facing the screen?
Mr.Westbrook. Well, he was sitting in the middle row of seats, and I don't know just exactly which—it was the third or fourth row from the back, it seemed like.
Mr.Ball. And near what aisle?
Mr.Westbrook. He was about the middle of the aisle.
Mr.Ball. He was about the middle of the aisle?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes; about the middle of the aisle. So, about the time I reached the first step or maybe the second step, I noticed then Officer McDonald—of course, the stage was still dim, but I could tell it was McDonald. I know him. He used to work for me when I was radio patrolman, and I seen him go down the aisle and this boy come up and made a contact, and they started struggling.
Mr.Ball. You say "the boy come up," what did he do?
Mr.Westbrook. He got up from the seat and they started fighting.
Mr.Ball. Were the lights on in the theatre?
Mr.Westbrook. Very dim ones; the picture was still running, but the lights were on very dim.
Mr.Ball. They started fighting—what sort of fighting did you see?
Mr.Westbrook. Well, I know that I seen Oswald swing at McDonald and McDonald grab him.
Mr.Ball. Oswald swung with which arm, would you say?
Mr.Westbrook. I would say it would be his left fist, because from the way he was sitting facing me—I would say it would be his left fist.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you see?
Mr.Westbrook. Well, the next thing, of course, then I started running and there was probably six or seven officers that just converged on him just like that. Barrett was, I think, directly behind me in the aisle—he got there at the same time I did.
I yelled about two or three times, "Has somebody got his gun," and finally some officer—I don't know which one it was—says, "Yes; I have the gun."
Mr.Ball. Were you close enough to hear anything said by either McDonald or anyone else?
Mr.Westbrook. I heard Oswald say something about police brutality—Oswald yelled something about police brutality.
Mr.Ball. When McDonald first approached the man in the seats did you hear McDonald say anything?
Mr.Westbrook. I probably couldn't have heard this, Mr. Ball, from where I was.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear the man say anything?
Mr.Westbrook. The word "brutality" or "police brutality" and I think that was just all he yelled—was said while I was in the aisle walking down to the group. There was about six or seven ahold of him at that time.
Mr.Ball. Were the handcuffs on him at the time you arrived?
Mr.Westbrook. They were putting the handcuffs on him—they had one handcuff on one hand and they were trying to find the other one, and they were having difficulty in locating it because there were so many hands there.
Mr.Ball. How many officers were there?
Mr.Westbrook. In fact—that was one of the only humorous things about the whole thing—somebody did get ahold of the wrong arm and they were twisting it behind Oswald's back and somebody yelled—I remember that, "My God, you got mine." I think it was just an arm that come up out of the crowd that somebody grabbed.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any police officer strike Oswald?
Mr.Westbrook. No; I did not.
Mr.Ball. You didn't?
Mr.Westbrook. No, I didn't.
Mr.Ball. We had a witness here Thursday, a patron of the theatre at the time, who said that at the time the officers were struggling with Oswald he saw another officer who had a shotgun take the shotgun and grab it by the muzzle and strike Oswald in the back with the butt of the shotgun; did you see that?
Mr.Westbrook. No, sir; I didn't see that. It could have happened without me seeing it because half of my view was blocked from the struggle.
Mr.Ball. Did anybody ever tell you that story before?
Mr.Westbrook. That's the first time I've heard that.
Mr.Ball. That's the first time you have ever heard it?
Mr.Westbrook. That's the first time I have ever heard any shotgun was in play.
Mr.Ball. Did any of the men who were approaching Oswald or who approached Oswald have a gun in their hand?
Mr.Westbrook. I didn't see a gun, Mr. Ball; no, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any men with shotguns in the theatre?
Mr.Westbrook. In the theatre—I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any at any other time?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes, sir; I had one myself at the library.
Mr.Ball. But did you enter the theatre with a gun?
Mr.Westbrook. Oh, no.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any officer either in uniform or out of uniform within the theatre itself that was armed with a shotgun?
Mr.Westbrook. No, sir—not that I recall, but of course at that time I wasn't looking for one. You know, if I had been looking for one, I probably would have seen one, because I feel sure there must have been somebody come in with a shotgun.
Mr.Ball. Were you in uniform at that time?
Mr.Westbrook. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. What happened after that, Officer Westbrook?
Mr.Westbrook. Well, after Oswald was handcuffed, and I was then—some way I got in the aisle in front of Oswald—where this was going on, and I looked right into his face, closer than you and I, about likethis——
Mr.Ball. That's close to a foot?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes; I'd say 10 inches.
Mr.Ball. Ten inches.
Mr.Westbrook. And I asked him his name and he didn't answer, and so that was the only thing. Then I yelled—there was so much confusion and it was rather loud, and I yelled at the top of my voice, I said, "Get him out of here. Get him in the squad car and head straight to the city hall and notify them you are on the way." And so they immediately left with him.
Mr.Ball. Were you the senior officer there?
Mr.Westbrook. Possibly—I don't think there was another captain there. There was a lieutenant and then I ordered all of them to be sure and take the names of everyone in the theatre at that time.
Mr.Ball. We have asked for names of people in the theatre and we have only come up with the name of George Applin. Do you know of any others?
Mr.Westbrook. He possibly might have been the only one in there at the time—the rest of them might have been working there, because I'm sure at that time of day you would have more employees than you would have patrons.
Mr.Ball. You didn't take the names of any of the patrons?
Mr.Westbrook. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any marks on Oswald's face as you looked at him, as close to him as you did in the theatre?
Mr.Westbrook. It seemed like there was a scratch or something—I don't remember exactly—when I looked at him—maybe a slight discoloration, or it might have been bleeding slightly.
Mr.Ball. Under the right eye?
Mr.Westbrook. I believe it would be—you—yes, sir; it would be under the right eye.
Mr.Ball. Here is a picture, and who are the officers in the picture?
Mr.Westbrook. Sergeant Warren on theright——
Mr.Ball. What is his full name?
Mr.Westbrook. Wilson F. Warren, and this kid on the left—I don't know—I don't know his name. Of course, I know him.
Mr.Ball. That's Sergeant Warren on the right?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What is his assignment?
Mr.Westbrook. He is jail supervisor.
Mr.Ball. And do you know when the picture was taken?
Mr.Westbrook. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. And in this picture it looks like there was some mark on Oswald's face.
Mr.Westbrook. Yes, it looks like it might have been a little discoloration there—I think in the mug shot that shows up quite a bit more so than it does there, but you can see some.
Mr.Ball. And also on the left eye and right forehead, is that right?
Mr.Westbrook. Well, I don't recall anything, but that little bruise.
Mr.Ball. The bruise under the eye?
Mr.Westbrook. The bruise under the eye whenever I looked at him.
Mr.Ball. Under which eye?
Mr.Westbrook. I think it was the right eye—no, wait a minute, that would be the left eye—left eye.
Mr.Ball. You do recall that?
Mr.Westbrook. The one that was facing me—he was facing me.
Mr.Ball. Do you recall a bruise under the left eye—when?
Mr.Westbrook. When I looked at him in the theatre, but why, as many officers as there were ahold of him, how he got out from under all the group without more than that, I don't know. Just accidentally trying to straighten up, with as many officers as there were there—I don't know.
Mr.Ball. And you think you do recall that bruise under the left eye?
Mr.Westbrook. Maybe I should put that this way, Mr. Ball, a bruise under the eye, because I can't be definite about which eye, but just from the picture I see, but I know I saw that bruise and due to the fact that he had hollered "brutality"—well I'm getting ahead of myself here, so I'll just quit.
Mr.Ball. Go right ahead.
Mr.Westbrook. Due to the fact that he had hollered "brutality," as soon as Mr. McDonald had arrived at the city hall with the scratch on his face, I sent him on upstairs.
Mr.Ball. As soon as Oswald arrived?
Mr.Westbrook. No; as soon as McDonald arrived. I had nothing to do with Oswald after he got to the city hall.
Mr.Ball. Did you also see a scratch on McDonald's face?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Westbrook. I don't remember which side, but it was a rather long scratch and I had him to go to the Bureau and have his picture made—there is a picture of that, which you may have in your possession.
Mr.Ball. That was Officer McDonald—you had his picture taken immediately of his face?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. We will mark this as "Exhibit A" in your deposition.
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook's Exhibit A," for identification.)
Mr.Ball. What happened after that?
Mr.Westbrook. Well, from there on I had nothing to do with him—with Oswald.
Mr.Ball. Did you see him taken from the theatre?
Mr.Westbrook. No, sir; because I went the other way.
Mr.Ball. You went to the back?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes; he went out the front and I never saw Oswald again—that's the last time I saw him.
Mr.Ball. Now, what did you do after that?
Mr.Westbrook. I went back to the city hall and resumed my desk.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever find some clothing?
Mr.Westbrook. That was before, Mr. Ball.
Mr.Ball. When was that?
Mr.Westbrook. Actually, I didn't find it—it was pointed out to me by either some officer that—that was while we were going over the scene in the close area where the shooting was concerned, someone pointed out a jacket to me that was laying under a car and I got the jacket and told the officer to take the license number.
Mr.Ball. When did this happen? You gave me a sort of a resume of what you had done, but you omitted this incident.
Mr.Westbrook. I tell you what—this occurred shortly—let me think just a minute. We had been to the library and there is a little bit more conversation on the radio—I got on the radio and I asked the dispatcher about along this time, and I think this was after the library situation, if there had been a command post set up and who was in charge at the scene, and he told me Sergeant Owens, and about that time we saw Sergeant Owens pass.
Mr.Ball. What do you mean by "command post"?
Mr.Westbrook. Well, the definition—the way we place a command post—maybe I can use another illustration.
If there is some disaster, generally, as in this particular case, there should have been a central person in charge, which was Sergeant Owens, as he had said. The actual command post had not been established, but let me better explain a command post by a disaster area, like a fire.
In other words, you set it up at a certain location on the corner of Eighth and Seventh, and you work from there. Now, in this case we didn't have such a command post set up because one of the main reasons was because it wasn't defined a disaster area as we normally put it, but then I got out of the car after we got back in the car at the library and finally I got out of the car over on Jefferson Street—I would say about the 300 or 400 block of East Jefferson. No; that would be West Jefferson—because 10th comes through—yes; that would be West Jefferson.
Mr.Ball. Was that before you went to the scene of the Tippit shooting?
Mr.Westbrook. Yes, sir; that was before we went to that scene.
Mr.Ball. That was after you left the library?
Mr.Westbrook. After we left the library. I got out of the car and walked through the parking lot.
Mr.Ball. What parking lot?
Mr.Westbrook. I don't know—it may have been a used-car lot.
Mr.Ball. On what street?
Mr.Westbrook. It was actually on Jefferson, but the place where this jacket was found would have been back closer to the alley, Mr. Ball.