Mr.Stovall. It appeared to be a leather material.
Mr.Ball. You said there were three—you've mentioned blue and brown, is there any other color?
Mr.Stovall. There was, as well as I remember—one of the brown ones was a leather appearing suitcase and the other was more of a—some kind of a paper or cardboard suitcase, as well as I remember that thing. It was partially torn, I mean, it had been well used and was coming apart.
Mr.Ball. And were there three?
Mr.Stovall. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And what was the color of the third one?
Mr.Stovall. I believe it was brown also.
Mr.Ball. Leather or paper or cardboard?
Mr.Stovall. No; this was paper—it was some kind of a paper deal or cardboard.
Mr.Ball. Now, you also found a magazine advertisement from Klein's Department Store, Klein's in Chicago?
Mr.Stovall. Yes, sir; that was in the same box with the photographs.
Mr.Ball. Just for illustration of your testimony, I would like to have marked as an exhibit to the deposition your report of the search of November 22, 1963, as your Exhibit No. C, and your report of the search of November 23, 1963, of the Paine residence as Exhibit No. D.
(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as "Stovall Exhibits C and D," for identification.)
Mr.Ball. You mention in there a map—what kind of map or maps did you find there?
Mr.Stovall. I don't recall just what kind of maps they were.
Mr.Ball. What time did you leave there that day?
Mr.Stovall. Must have been around 4:30 or 5, I believe.
Mr.Ball. Did Mrs. Paine or Mr. Paine say anything more to you than you have already told us?
Mr.Stovall. No, sir; as well as I recall, Mr. and Mrs. Paine were both gone from the house when we left there.
Mr.Ball. You took these materials with you that you have on this list?
Mr.Stovall. Yes.
Mr.Ball. You took them down to where?
Mr.Stovall. We took them down to our office.
Mr.Ball. And you made a list of them that day, did you?
Mr.Stovall. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you do anything else on this investigation?
Mr.Stovall. No, sir; that's all I can recall that I did on the investigation. I might add, there was—well, you have that on the list—some property.
Mr.Ball. What is that?
Mr.Stovall. When we took this identification off of Lee Oswald that had this selective service card, the name Hidell, and he also had his own identification—at the time we were in the garage we found some negatives out there that appeared that he had make a snapshot of a selective service card, and on the back of the negatives it was where the name would have been typed in—there was some stuff on the back of the negatives to block out the name when it was reprinted, and there were some selective service cards that he had printed himself out there from a negative that were blank and which appeared to be the same that he had on him at the time, on the 22d of November, that had the name of "A. Hidell" typed in on it.
Mr.Ball. Did you appear at any showups of Oswald?
Mr.Stovall. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Were you at any of the interrogations of Oswald?
Mr.Stovall. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Well, I think that's all, Mr. Stovall. Thank you very much for coming over here.
Mr.Stovall. Okay, thank you.
Mr.Davis. Thank you so much, Mr. Stovall, we appreciate your coming by.
Mr.Stovall. I hope it was of some help to you.
The testimony of Walter Eugene Potts was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn, please?
Mr.Potts. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to givebefore the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Potts. I do.
Mr.Ball. Will you state your name, please?
Mr.Potts. Walter Eugene Potts.
Mr.Ball. What business or occupation are you in?
Mr.Potts. I am a detective with the police department, homicide, Dallas.
Mr.Ball. How long have you been with the police department in Dallas?
Mr.Potts. Since October 21, 1947.
Mr.Ball. And how long have you been with the homicide department?
Mr.Potts. June 6, 1956.
Mr.Ball. Can you tell me something about where you were born and where you were educated and what you have done since then?
Mr.Potts. I was born at Sherman, Tex., April 28, 1922, and I came to Dallas in 1924 and was raised here in Dallas, attended public schools in Dallas, graduated from this Dallas—it's Crozier Tech now, but it was Dallas Technical High School right here on Bryan Street in 1941, and when I graduated I went to work for Southwest Airmotive at Love Field, and I worked for Taycee Badgett Aviation in 1942 and 1943, in Shreveport, La., and I took an aviation cadet mental and physical down there and came back to Dallas to be inducted into the service, and I worked for Lockheed at Love Field before I went in the service, and I went in the service in July 1945. I was discharged in January 1947. I was in the 796th Military Police Battalion in Vienna, Austria, and also the 505th there.
I came back and went to work for the Taylor Publishing Co. just before I went to work for the police department. My mother and father, they still live here out on Brookfield and my sister lives here. I am one of the very few native boys in this police department down here—that's raised right here.
Mr.Ball. And on November 22, 1963, you had the day off, didn't you?
Mr.Potts. Yes, sir; that was my day off.
Mr.Ball. And did you hear on the radio the President had been shot?
Mr.Potts. Well, my wife and I had gone to the cleaners up there at Jim Miller and Military, and I suppose it was around 12:30 or a quarter to 1—around 1 o'clock and we pulled up in front of the cleaners there and Mr. Wright at the barbershop came out to the car and he said, "Have you heard about the President getting shot?"
You know, I thought he was joking and I thought he was kidding and I turned on my car radio and there it was.
We went on back home and I called the office immediately and talked to Detective Baker, he's a lieutenant now, and he said he was calling all the men back and I started to get dressed—get ready, and I told him I would be there as soon as I could, and I got dressed and got there within the hour, which was around 2 or before.
Mr.Ball. What did you do when you first got there?
Mr.Potts. When I was walking across the street there, I parked my car over at the Scottish Rite parking lot there and it's the Masonic lot and when I come across the street there at Commerce and Harwood this officer on the corner there said, "Did you hear about Tippit getting killed?" I said, "No; I didn't hear about that." He said, "Yes; I understand he got killed on a disturbance call over in Oak Cliff." That's the first I had heard about Tippit and when I got to the office, I walked in and Baker told me, "We have some people here from the Texas School Book Depository—there are four or five of them back there," and he said, "Would you go back there and take some affidavits from them?" And I said, "Sure," and I went back there and took one from this Arce, and I was in the process of taking one from this Jack Dougherty when I heard some officers coming in the door there, and I heard one of them say, "We've got the man that killed Tippit."
So, they brought him on back in while we were sitting back in the squadroom and I was sitting back there with Dougherty and Arce, and they came by and put him in the side interrogation room back there. As you walk in the door, there is an interrogation room right straight ahead and then you turn right togo back in the squadroom and you go on back in the squadroom, and this Mr. Dougherty looked at me and he said, "I know that man."
He said, "He works down there in that building—the Texas School Book Depository Building." He said, "I don't know his name, but I know him." So did Arce—he said, "Yes, he works down there."
So, I went ahead and took those affidavits from them—from those people and we got them notarized.
Mr.Ball. You mean Arce and Dougherty?
Mr.Potts. Arce and Dougherty. There were some more officers back there taking affidavits from some of the others—some of those other people—I don't know—you know, time and all the confusion around there, you don't exactly know what time, but my partner, Bill Senkel, and F. M. Turner—we work a three-man squad, and Bill came around and he talked to Captain Fritz, and he said "Come on, let's go. We are going out to 1026 North Beckley."
He came around and told me, he said—he asked me if I had finished taking the affidavits, and I told him, "Yes," and he said, "Captain Fritz wants you and I to go out to Oswald's or Hidell's or Oswald's room."
On his person—he must have had—he did have identification with the name Alex Hidell and Oswald—Lee Harvey Oswald, but Lt. E. L. Cunningham of the forgery bureau, who used to be a member of the homicide and robbery bureau before he made lieutenant, he went with us and we went out there.
Mr.Ball. Before you went out there, did you get a search warrant?
Mr.Potts. No; we didn't—we didn't get a search warrant at that time. We went to the location and talked to the people there.
Mr.Ball. That's Lt. E. L. Cunningham?
Mr.Potts. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And who else?
Mr.Potts. B. L. Senkel.
Mr.Ball. And yourself?
Mr.Potts. And myself.
Mr.Ball. And you went out to where?
Mr.Potts. 1026 North Beckley.
Mr.Ball. What happened when you got there?
Mr.Potts. We got there and we talked to this Mrs.—I believe her name was Johnson.
Mr.Ball. Mrs. A. C. Johnson?
Mr.Potts. Mrs. Johnson and Mrs. Roberts.
Mr.Ball. Earlene Roberts?
Mr.Potts. Yes; and they didn't know a Lee Harvey Oswald or an Alex Hidell either one and they couldn't—they just didn't have any idea who we were talking about, so the television—it is a rooming house, and there was atelevision——
Mr.Ball. Did you check their registration books?
Mr.Potts. Yes, sir; we looked at the registration book—Senkel, I think, or Cunningham—well, we all looked through the registration book and there wasn't anyone by that name, and the television was on in the living room. There's an area there where the roomers sit, I guess it's the living quarters—it flashed Oswald's picture on there and one of the women, either Mrs. Roberts or Mrs. Johnson said, "That's the man that lives here. That's Mr. Lee—O. H. Lee." She said, "His room is right here right off of the living room."
Senkel or Cunningham, one of them, called the office and they said that Turner was en route with a search warrant and we waited there until 4:30 or 5 that afternoon. We got out there about 3.
Mr.Ball. You waited there in the home?
Mr.Potts. We waited there in the living quarters.
Mr.Ball. You did not go into the small room that had been rented by Lee?
Mr.Potts. No; we didn't—we didn't search the room at all until we got the warrant.
Mr.Ball. Who brought the warrant out?
Mr.Potts. Judge David Johnston.
Mr.Ball. The judge issued it, but who brought it out?
Mr.Potts. Well, F. M. Turner and H. M. Moore was with him, and Judge David Johnston was there, and also Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander.
Mr.Ball. Did David L. Johnston go too, the justice of the peace?
Mr.Potts. Yes, the judge was there in person.
Mr.Ball. He was?
Mr.Potts. Yes; and also Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander—they all came in the same car.
Mr.Ball. What did you do then?
Mr.Potts. Well, after we showed Johnson the search warrant, I think it was Johnson, we went on in the room and continued to search the room, and we took everything in there that we could find.
Mr.Ball. Would you describe the room, the appearance of the room?
Mr.Potts. Well, the room was off—as you walk into the house, the living area, the room was right there at the front door, and it was off to the left of the living room. It was a real small room. It was, oh, I don't suppose it was 6 to 8 feet wide, and maybe 10 feet long. It was a real small room. It had a half bed in there and back in the back there it had a shelf—some shelves and stuff that he had some food and stuff back there in.
Mr.Ball. How was it furnished?
Mr.Potts. Well, it just had the bed in there, and I believe, if remember, it might have had a chair—I'm not sure. So, Moore, Senkel, Cunningham and all of us—we searched that room—we took everything in there all but—there was some food on the shelf we didn't take and we went through the trash can and there was some banana peelings and stuff, but everything in there—we took everything in there we could find. We even took the pillow cases off of one of the pillows and put stuff in it. He had one of those little zipper-type bags and he had a lot of stuff in it.
Mr.Ball. What color was the bag?
Mr.Potts. I don't recall the color of that bag.
Mr.Ball. Did you bring it with you—you picked it up too, and brought it in, too?
Mr.Potts. Yes, sir; we brought everything out of the room we could find.
Mr.Ball. Were there curtains on the windows?
Mr.Potts. Yes, sir; I think so.
Mr.Ball. Hanging on rods?
Mr.Potts. If I remember correctly, I think there was curtains on the walls, but we looked behind the curtains and everything—and looked behind the blinds and everything.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you see anything of a leather holster?
Mr.Potts. A .38 leather holster—I have a list there of all the stuff we brought out of there.
Mr.Ball. Could I see that, please?
Mr.Potts. Yes, sir; you sure can. This is a list Mr. Turner and Mr. Moore and myself compiled after we brought it into the office.
Mr.Ball. You brought the stuff into the office?
Mr.Potts. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. We'll mark this as "Potts Exhibit A."
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibit A," for identification.)
Mr.Potts. You can have that if you would like.
Mr.Ball. This will be two exhibits—A-1 and A-2.
(The instruments referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibits A-l and A-2," for identification.)
Mr.Ball. Did you ask Mrs. Johnson whether or not she had ever seen the holster before?
Mr.Potts. I don't recall asking her that.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever ask Mrs. Earlene Roberts if she had seen the holster before?
Mr.Potts. I don't recall talking to her about that. They weren't too familiar with what was in that room. I didn't talk to them too much about it.
Mr.Ball. You recovered a Dallas city map, too, didn't you?
Mr.Potts. Yes, sir; that had some markings on it in pencil.
Mr.Ball. All right, go ahead.
Mr.Potts. There was a red notebook there that had a lot of names in it and addresses in it and a lot of Russian writing—and it had a diagram of the Red Square in there, I suppose, that's what it looked like to me. I suppose that's what it was, but, of course, it was all written in Russian and about half of that book I didn't understand.
Mr.Ball. You brought all of this property to the city hall?
Mr.Potts. Yes; we did.
Mr.Ball. And you made the inventory we have had marked here as "Exhibits A-1 and A-2"?
Mr.Potts. Yes; Mr. Moore and Turner and I compiled it.
Mr.Ball. Now, on that same day, did you do anything more?
Mr.Potts. Let me say—later on in the afternoon—we worked the rest of that night, up until—I don't recall what time I did leave there—it was pretty late.
Mr.Ball. I have here a document which has been marked as "Commission Exhibit No. 426." Did you find this document at the 1026 North Beckley address that day, do you remember?
Mr.Potts. I recall seeing this; yes, I do. I don't know which one of the officers picked it up.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember where it was?
Mr.Potts. No; I don't.
Mr.Ball. Do—you don't know where it was kept?
Mr.Potts. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. But was it brought from the room?
Mr.Potts. Yes; it was—here's my initial in the right hand corner, and here is Mr. Moore's.
Mr.Ball. What does that initial mean?
Mr.Potts. That's my initial, "W. E. P."
Mr.Ball. And there is "11-22-63"—what does that mean?
Mr.Potts. That means—we initial all of the evidence we bring out of there. At the time—this was going to court, and if this was brought out in court that would be my initials right there—I recovered this.
Mr.Ball. Did you initial it right there in the room?
Mr.Potts. We initialed it after we brought it to the station.
Mr.Ball. These are the initials of the men who were there with you?
Mr.Potts. That's H. M. Moore and I guess it's F. M. Turner—"F. M. T."—that's my partner. Yes, sir; for the purpose of identification in court, we initialed everything we could possibly write on.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you, on the 23d of November, take part in the investigation of either the death of Oswald or the shooting of the President?
Mr.Potts. Well, I reported to work at 10 o'clock in the morning and we worked until midnight that night—it was mostly telephone conversations—they had to put extra phones in our office. We were swamped—I talked to people from England, Canada, Peru—all over was just calling in there—just a continual call—call—call—and it kept most of us real busy answering telephone calls that day.
Mr.Ball. Did you take part in any showup of Oswald?
Mr.Potts. I believe I did—was that the 23d—at 2:15 that afternoon on the 23d, I was in on one.
Mr.Ball. Who was with you?
Mr.Potts. Mr. Senkel and I went to the jail and stood by the jail elevator and waited until the showup came down, and I was thinking there was M. G. Hall and Charlie Brown and a jailer or two that brought that showup down. They were all handcuffed together, as I recall.
Mr.Ball. Who is M. G. Hall?
Mr.Potts. He is a detective in our bureau.
Mr.Ball. And who is Charlie Brown?
Mr.Potts. Charlie Brown is also an officer assigned to the bureau. Now, I might be wrong about that, but it seems to me like they were the two that showed up then, but they might not have been.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you have anything to do with the selection of the men who were to be in the showup?
Mr.Potts. No, sir; all I did was just to go down to the jail door and walk with the showup out to the stage, and I stood out on the stage while the showup was conducted.
Mr.Ball. How was it conducted? Describe it.
Mr.Potts. Well, there is an anteroom before you get to the showup stage. Now, the witnesses were out front behind this transparent black nylon screen. There's a light set at an angle on the stage where the person on the stage can't see the people out in the audience. They brought them out handcuffed together and this John Thurman Horne went in first—no, that's wrong—Lujan went on first, because he would be No. 4. You see, they're got numbers above the—above them higher up there.
Mr.Ball. What is his full name?
Mr.Potts. Daniel Lujan, and then Oswald was No. 3, Knapp No. 2.
Mr.Ball. What is Knapp's full name?
Mr.Potts. David Knapp and John Thurman Horne was No. 1.
Mr.Ball. And what happened then, after they went out on the stage?
Mr.Potts. Well, Detective Leavelle—now, I don't know who the witness was that they were showing them to—the showup to.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear Leavelle?
Mr.Potts. I heard Leavelle question each one of the men. There is a black square on the floor and he tells each one of them to take one step forward and they have a microphone above, and I don't recall exactly what he asked them—It was just to get them to talk and identify themselves. We conduct them different—sometimes we ask them their names and their address and their occupation.
Mr.Ball. Did you ask the questions?
Mr.Potts. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did Leavelle ask the questions?
Mr.Potts. Yes; he was up there.
Mr.Ball. And, did he direct his questions to the men on the stage?
Mr.Potts. Yes; to the men on the stage.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear them?
Mr.Potts. Yes; I heard them answer.
Mr.Ball. Did Oswald speak up or not?
Mr.Potts. Well, he was complaining all during the showup. He had on a T-shirt and the rest of them didn't have on T-shirts, and he was complaining, "Well, everybody's got on a shirt and everything, and I've got a T-shirt on"—he was very belligerent about the showup. He wouldn't cooperate in any way. He was just making all kinds of commotion out there and he was doing more of the talking than anybody.
Mr.Ball. What kind of commotion was he making?
Mr.Potts. Well, he was doing a lot of talking about him being in a T-shirt, and "nobody else has got on a T-shirt and I've got on a T-shirt, this is unfair," and all that—just generally talking and after the showup was over, we just accompanied them back from the stage out to the anteroom door and just walked along with them and the elevator—took them on the elevator, and that's all we had to do with the show.
Mr.Ball. That's all you had to do with it?
Mr.Potts. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What were the appearances of the four men who came out?
Mr.Potts. They were similar in size—I didn't pick them—I don't know who did, but they were generally the same size, and, of course, the ages are a little different here.
Mr.Ball. What ages were they, do you know?
Mr.Potts. Well, Horne was 17—he was born November 6, 1945, I believe that's right.
Mr.Ball. John Thurman Horne?
Mr.Potts. Yes; and this David Edmond Knapp, he was 18. He was born October 22, 1945, and this Daniel Lujan, he was 26, and he was born February 15, 1937.
Mr.Ball. And do you have the addresses of these three men?
Mr.Potts. Yes; I do—now, I got the addresses off of—out of our records bureau—off of their arrest cards. I don't know whether they gave a fictitious address or not.
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Potts. Now, Horne is 2942 Ann Arbor.
Mr.Ball. 2942 Ann Arbor?
Mr.Potts. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And that's Dallas?
Mr.Potts. Yes; that's in Oak Cliff.
Mr.Ball. And what was he charged with—why was he in jail?
Mr.Potts. Traffic tickets—he had a number of traffic tickets.
Mr.Ball. Traffic tickets?
Mr.Potts. Yes; he had a stack of them—all on the same arrest date.
Mr.Ball. He did?
Mr.Potts. Yes—red lights and so on.
Mr.Ball. And what about David Knapp, what was he in for?
Mr.Potts. He was in for investigation of theft and he lived at 2922 Alabama. That's in Oak Cliff.
Mr.Ball. And he was in for investigation?
Mr.Potts. Investigation of burglary and theft.
Mr.Ball. Was he convicted?
Mr.Potts. Well, I don't know anything about that.
Mr.Ball. You don't know where he is now?
Mr.Potts. No, sir; I have never seen those men since.
Mr.Ball. You don't know whether he was convicted or not?
Mr.Potts. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Ball. What about Lujan?
Mr.Potts. Daniel Lujan—[spelling] L-u-j-a-n, I guess that's the way you pronounce it. He was born February 15, 1937, and gave the address of 1804 Lear [spelling] L-e-a-r Street, and he was in for investigation of violation of State narcotic laws.
Mr.Ball. And was he convicted, or do you know?
Mr.Potts. I don't know.
Mr.Ball. Do you know if any one of these men has ever been convicted of a felony?
Mr.Potts. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Ball. You know nothing about that?
Mr.Potts. I know nothing about them at all. In fact, that's the first time I have ever seen them and I suppose the last time.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you take any further part in the investigation?
Mr.Potts. That Presidential assassination—I think that's about all I done on that.
Mr.Ball. I think that one day you went out and talked to Mr. Fischer?
Mr.Potts. Yes; I talked to a boy named Fischer—on the 25th of November. Of course, you know I was off duty on the Ruby thing.
Mr.Ball. Yes; I know that.
Mr.Potts. I was at home then and I was sitting there and my wife said, "They are going to televise this transfer of Oswald." I said, "I've seen enough of that and I don't want to look at it." And she said, "We need milk and bread for lunch," and so I got up and got in the car and went to Safeway and was standing in line to check out there and a woman—well, it looked like a woman—came out and said, "Oswald has just been shot." Well, I thought that was a big joke, too, and went back out there and turned on the car radio and there that was. I came on back on duty that day.
Mr.Ball. When you went out to see Mr.Fischer——
Mr.Potts. Now, Mr. Turner had this information about this Fischer man. He and Mr. Senkel—they were in the motorcade that day. In fact, they were in the lead car.
Mr.Ball. Senkel was?
Mr.Potts. Senkel, Turner, and Chief Lumpkin were in the lead car in the motorcade, and I think Turner had gotten this information about this Fischer fellow. I had never heard about him until Turner asked me, he said, "Let's goout and talk to this Mr. Fischer." He said, "He is supposed to have been standing down there watching the parade go by and he saw this man in this window," and he wanted to know—we took a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald out there to see if he could identify him as being the man he saw in the window, and we went out there on the 25th of November with Lee Harvey Oswald's picture to 4007 Flamingo Street in Mesquite. That's where this Ronald Fischer lives, and he works for the county auditor's office down there. He was working that day and most of the county employees stood out on the street to watch the parade, and we took his picture out there and he said, "I can't say for sure that's the man that I saw in that window up there, but it looks like him." He said he saw him up there just a few minutes before he heard the shots fired.
Mr.Ball. Now, you made written reports of these investigations you are testifying about?
Mr.Potts. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And you have refreshed your memory from them—from your own handwritten notes?
Mr.Potts. That's right—I have.
Mr.Ball. I would like to have marked your report on your officer's duty on Friday, November 22, and also on the 23d and 25th of November, being two sheets, numbered 230 and 231, as the next exhibit, and page 3 of your report, being No. 232, being a report of your participation in the showup on November 23, 1963, at 2:15—as the next exhibit.
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibits B and C," respectively, for identification.)
Mr.Ball. I think that's all and I do want to thank you very much.
Mr.Potts. You are certainly welcome.
Mr.Ball. This will be written up and you can come down and read it and sign it or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the Commission. You can tell me what you want to do.
Mr.Potts. Oh, I will sign it.
Mr.Ball. All right, then you will be notified when it is ready for you to sign.
The testimony of John P. Adamcik was taken at 10 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Belin. Would you want to stand and raise your right hand, sir?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Adamcik. I do.
Mr.Belin. Would you please state your name?
Mr.Adamcik. John P. Adamcik.
Mr.Belin. Where do you live?
Mr.Adamcik. I live right now at 4621 Samuell Boulevard, apartment 166.
Mr.Belin. Where is that?
Mr.Adamcik. That is over in the eastern part of Dallas.
Mr.Belin. In Dallas, Tex.?
Mr.Adamcik. It is in Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Belin. How old are you, sir?
Mr.Adamcik. I am 26.
Mr.Belin. What is your occupation?
Mr.Adamcik. I am a detective with the Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Belin. Did you go to school in Dallas?
Mr.Adamcik. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Belin. Where did you go to high school?
Mr.Adamcik. LaGrange, Tex.
Mr.Belin. LaGrange High School?
Mr.Adamcik. Right.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Adamcik. I worked there in LaGrange for a short period of time, and came to Dallas and worked for Temco Aircraft Co.
Mr.Belin. What did you do for them?
Mr.Adamcik. I was an assembler.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Adamcik. Then I went in the Marine Corps for a short period of time.
Mr.Belin. How long were you in the Marine Corps?
Mr.Adamcik. I was in there approximately 2 months, got out on a hardship discharge.
Mr.Belin. You mean family?
Mr.Adamcik. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Was it an honorable discharge?
Mr.Adamcik. Yes; I got an honorable discharge—hardship discharge.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Adamcik. I went home and assisted the family, because my father was injured. That was the reason I got the discharge.
And I don't know, I got everybody going in shape which would be, I think it was probably around a year, and I came back to Dallas and got on the police department.
Mr.Belin. And you have been in the police department ever since?
Mr.Adamcik. Every since, except I took another 6-month leave of absence and I spent 6 months on active duty with the U.S. Army Reserves. After the hardship ended, I went back in the Army for 6 months.
Mr.Belin. Your position with the Dallas Police Department is now what?
Mr.Adamcik. Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau.
Mr.Belin. Are you married?
Mr.Adamcik. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Family?
Mr.Adamcik. One-month-old baby.
Mr.Belin. A month old baby. Boy or girl?
Mr.Adamcik. Boy.
Mr.Belin. You must be pretty proud?
Mr.Adamcik. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What is his name?
Mr.Adamcik. Mark Allen.
Mr.Belin. Your wife taking good care of that baby?
Mr.Adamcik. Oh, yes.
Mr.Belin. Officer, first I want to talk about November 22, 1963. Were you on duty on that date?
Mr.Adamcik. No, sir; I wasn't, not at the time pertaining to this.
Mr.Belin. Not at the time of the assassination?
Mr.Adamcik. No; I wasn't.
Mr.Belin. You were off duty?
Mr.Adamcik. I was at home, off duty.
Mr.Belin. When did you get on duty that day?
Mr.Adamcik. I was supposed to go on at 3. However, when I heard of the assassination—I was supposed to go to court at 2 o'clock, and I reported down to the courts and the courts were closed, so I immediately reported to my office, which was about 2 or so.
Mr.Belin. You were at the office the rest of the afternoon?
Mr.Adamcik. No, sir. I stayed at the office a short period of time. I wasn't there over an hour when Oswald was brought in by the arresting officers and we were asked—Detectives Stovall and Rose and myself were asked by Captain Fritz and the supervisor to go to his residence in Irving, to the Paine residence.
Mr.Belin. Did Oswald give them that address?
Mr.Adamcik. I don't know. I don't recall whether he gave them the address or they found it on his person in evidence as identification.
Mr.Belin. What was the address?
Mr.Adamcik. 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving. I don't have any idea howthat came about at all. All I remember is that we were told to go to this address. I don't even remember whether we had a name, a definite name. We were told to go to this address, that this was the address he had on his person, or something similar to that, and we did what we were told.
Mr.Belin. About what time was this?
Mr.Adamcik. This was approximately 2:30. Could I use my report?
Mr.Belin. Sure. You take your report out and refresh your recollection.
Mr.Adamcik. I have it on here, the times mainly. This would be approximately 2:30.
Mr.Belin. All right, did you have a search warrant when you went out there?
Mr.Adamcik. No, sir; we did not.
Mr.Belin. Any particular reason why you didn't?
Mr.Adamcik. Well, at the time, we didn't know what we would find. We didn't have any idea what this address meant to us, and we were mainly going over to see who was there.
We decided if we were not allowed in the house, invited in, that we could get a search warrant later to go in, whereas at the time we didn't have any idea that that address actually had any connection with these people or with Oswald.
Mr.Belin. Who did you go with?
Mr.Adamcik. I went with Detectives Rose and Stovall, and we were met by three county officers there at the scene before we went up, because being out of the city limits of Dallas, we had three county officers go along with us, because it was in their jurisdiction.
Mr.Belin. What time did you get there?
Mr.Adamcik. I would say that it didn't take us over, it probably took us half an hour to get there. I would say it would be approximately 3 o'clock.
Mr.Belin. What did you do when you got there?
Mr.Adamcik. We waited a few minutes for the county officers to get there, and when they got there we came outside, and I went with one of the county officers or two of the county officers to the back door, and one of the county officers and Detectives Rose and Stovall went to the front door.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Adamcik. We waited until Detectives Rose and Stovall and the county officers got inside the house, which was a period of time of maybe 3 or 4 minutes when they were invited in, and they came to the back door and opened it up and asked us to come in.
Mr.Belin. Who asked you to come in?
Mr.Adamcik. Detectives Rose and Stovall, plus—because Mrs. Paine was in the house at the time standing next to them.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Adamcik. Well, we started looking around the house. I think Detectives Rose and Stovall handled most of the interrogation. They asked the questions of Mrs. Paine, and Mrs. Oswald, after we found out who they were—and I didn't do any interrogating at the time at all, I just sort of stood and listened, and we started looking around.
We asked them where Mr. Oswald was, and various things, and we looked around.
Mr.Belin. What did Mrs. Oswald say about whether or not you could see her room?
Mr.Adamcik. She never did say anything at all. In fact, she showed us where the room was and showed us several things in the room.
Mr.Belin. What did Mrs. Paine do?
Mr.Adamcik. She didn't object at all. They were really very cooperative.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember what the interrogation was? Who said what?
Mr.Adamcik. No; I don't recall. I assume it was, you know, they asked her who she was.
Mr.Belin. Did anyone ask when was the last time they saw Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Adamcik. Oh, yes; I heard it asked.
Mr.Belin. What was the answer given, if you remember?
Mr.Adamcik. I don't recall.
Mr.Belin. Well, did they take you out to the garage?
Mr.Adamcik. Not me. They took two of—some of the officers. I think it was Detectives Stovall and Rose, to the garage. I think it was through Mrs. Oswald that she went ahead and told Mrs. Paine something, and Mrs. Paine drew their attention to the garage.
Mr.Belin. Did anyone say anything about a rifle?
Mr.Adamcik. I didn't hear it. I wasn't present when they went in the garage at all.
Mr.Belin. All right, what did you do?
Mr.Adamcik. Well, we stayed in the house for a good while, and we called, or one of our men called in the office, I didn't, and asked them what they should do. And of course they told them to bring the people in, that they wanted to talk to them at the office. And we told them about it and they agreed that they would go. And of course our problem was the children. There was some children, both of Mrs. Oswald's children were there, and I don't remember, I believe Mrs. Paine's were there, and we wondered where they would stay, or make some arrangements for the neighbors to keep them or not, and if I remember correctly, after we were there a while, Michael Paine, Mrs. Paine's husband came in. We have it here someplace what time it was.
Mr.Belin. Did you hear what Michael Paine said when he came in?
Mr.Adamcik. Yes. He came in about 3:45 and told his wife that he heard the President was shot and he came over to see whether he could help, and they were surprised.
Mr.Belin. When he said he heard the President was shot and he came over to see if he could help, why would he help her if the President was shot?
Mr.Adamcik. I don't know. Apparently in the affidavit, I was present.
Later on he said that his first idea when he heard that the President was shot was that Oswald could have been the one that done it, when he found out about the location, so apparently he figured that somebody would be over there questioning them.
Mr.Belin. All right, then what happened?
Mr.Adamcik. Well, we went through the house, if I remember correctly, and I believe the other detectives found some property. I know they found this blanket that was rolled up in the garage.
Mr.Belin. Were you there when they saw the blanket?
Mr.Adamcik. No; I wasn't there. I saw the blanket later.
Mr.Belin. Where was it when you first saw it?
Mr.Adamcik. I believe they took it in the house. I am pretty sure.
Mr.Belin. Had they unrolled the blanket when they took it in the house?
Mr.Adamcik. No; they had a string still tied around it. Apparently had two strings, and just one of the strings were cut.
Mr.Belin. One of the strings was cut?
Mr.Adamcik. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Who cut it, do you know?
Mr.Adamcik. I don't have any idea.
Mr.Belin. Had it been cut by an officer of the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Adamcik. No; it definitely wasn't.
Mr.Belin. Pardon?
Mr.Adamcik. Definitely wasn't. As far as I know, it wasn't.
Mr.Belin. How was the blanket rolled, do you know, offhand, approximately?
Mr.Adamcik. It appeared to be 4 or 5 feet, maybe.
Mr.Belin. Was there anything in the blanket?
Mr.Adamcik. Not that I could see.
Mr.Belin. Was the blanket stiff or limp?
Mr.Adamcik. It was a regular wool blanket, and it wasn't fairly stiff. Just from being rolled that way, it didn't appear like it was real stiff. Just normal.
Mr.Belin. Did you see anyone carrying the blanket?
Mr.Adamcik. No; I didn't.
Mr.Belin. Did you lift the blanket up?
Mr.Adamcik. No; I never did lift the blanket up.
Mr.Belin. What happened after it was brought inside?
Mr.Adamcik. I don't recall then at all. I left the house after awhile and went with, I believe it was, Mrs. Paine. I went with her to one of the neighbor houses to see about the children, leaving the children there. I left and went with her.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Adamcik. Coming back, Mrs. Frazier, I believe it was, drove up to the house as I was coming back with—no, it was Mrs. Bill Randle. She (Mrs. Randle) was a neighbor there and she was driving up to the house, so I asked her whether she knew anything about what had happened, and whether she had seen Lee Oswald, and she did tell me that Lee Oswald rode to work with her brother, which is Wesley Frazier, who was staying with her, and he rode to work with him that morning.
She told me that she saw—she was up early in the morning and was drinking coffee, and saw Lee Harvey Oswald go across the front yard, across the yard carrying like a long package wrapped in something, carrying it from the Paine house to Wesley's car.
Mr.Belin. Did she say how he was carrying the package?
Mr.Adamcik. No; she didn't. I think we got an affidavit. In fact, I know we did, but I didn't take it.
Mr.Belin. Did she say about how long the package was?
Mr.Adamcik. No; she said it was long and wrapped in a paper or a box. That is all I remember her saying.
Mr.Belin. Anything else on there? Did she say anything that it was unusual for Oswald to be home at all during the week?
Mr.Adamcik. Yes; she did say that. That Oswald usually spent the weekends over there, and it was unusual for him to be there on a Thursday night and go to work with him on Friday.
Mr.Belin. Anything else you remember offhand?
Mr.Adamcik. No; I don't believe I do.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Adamcik. By then we went ahead and took these people and put them in a car. I think Mrs. Oswald took both the children. Mrs. Paine got a neighbor to keep her children and Mrs. Oswald and her two children were put in our car, the city police car, and Mrs. Paine also went with us, and Michael Paine, Mrs. Paine's husband, went with the county officer, and we proceeded to go to the city police station.
Mr.Belin. Then what?
Mr.Adamcik. We took them up to the homicide and robbery bureau office and conditions were very crowded there, so we moved up to the forgery bureau next door, and we put them in the interrogation room and waited a pretty good while.
By this time it was approximately 6 p.m., and I think they were trying to get an interpreter and question Mrs. Oswald. That was the reason for the wait.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Adamcik. Oh, yes, after talking to this Mrs. Randle, we wanted to talk to Wesley Frazier, and she said that he was at Parkland visiting his sick daddy.
So when we got back to the station, we checked with Parkland and couldn't find anybody by that name over there, so we checked with the clinic there in Irving, I believe it was, Irving Professional Center, and found out that he was there. The nurse checked the room, and he was there at the time, so some of the detectives called out there and had him placed in custody at that time so we could get an affidavit from him or question him.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Adamcik. However, I didn't go back over there and get him.
Mr.Belin. When you got down to the station, you were with Mrs. Paine?
Mr.Adamcik. Right. When we got to the station, there was Mrs. Paine, Mrs. Oswald and her two children, and Michael Paine.
Mr.Belin. Was Mrs. Oswald questioned at all or not?
Mr.Adamcik. Mrs. Oswald, yes; she was. She was questioned that same evening.
Mr.Belin. What did she say?
Mr.Adamcik. Well, she was questioned through an interpreter, and an affidavit was gotten from her also. I know she was showed the rifle in my presence.
I was there with Captain Fritz and myself and Detective Senkel, and the rifle was showed to her then, and she looked at it, and I remember her saying through an interpreter that it did look like the rifle, but she didn't say, but it did look like the rifle that Lee Oswald, that was in the garage previous to finding the blanket eventually.
Mr.Belin. When you say finding the blanket eventually, did she say the blanket was there?
Was it simply that when you showed the blanket to the officers, apparently she made some remark that about a week or so previous to that her husband's rifle had been wrapped in a blanket?
Mr.Adamcik. I can't remember exactly how long. I don't remember when she said the last time was she saw it.
Mr.Belin. Did Mrs. Paine indicate she ever saw the rifle there?
Mr.Adamcik. I can't remember. I took an affidavit, and I know I questioned her about the rifle, and I can't remember whether she ever said.
I would have to see the affidavit. I don't have a copy. I don't believe she said she seen the rifle. I believe that she said she saw the blanket there, but I am sure that that would be in the affidavit. That would be in the affidavit, though.
Mr.Belin. Now anything else happen there?
Mr.Adamcik. No; after Mrs. Oswald was questioned, I took an affidavit from Mrs. Paine.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Adamcik. I think this other detective, I think Senkel, probably took one from Mrs. Oswald.
Mr.Belin. You mean Marina, Lee Oswald's wife?
Mr.Adamcik. That's right, the wife.
Mr.Belin. Then what?
Mr.Adamcik. Shortly after we got through with him, with this, I believe Lee Oswald's mother came in. I don't remember whether she had been in previous and was in some other office, but I know they brought her in the same office we were in at that time, and after we got through, they were all sitting in the same room together, Mrs. Oswald, Lee's mother, and the wife, and the children, and Mrs. Paine, and Michael Paine.
Mr.Belin. Did Lee Oswald's mother say anything?
Mr.Adamcik. No; she kind of didn't say anything definite. She kind of had the feeling—I don't know how to explain it—just like this, well, she didn't realize what really happened and just couldn't quite understand it, or something. She didn't say.
Mr.Belin. What about Lee Oswald's brother?
Mr.Adamcik. To me, he was in there, too. I didn't break that up. He seemed rather calm to me. He was real calm and real collected.
Mr.Belin. Did he say anything at all?
Mr.Adamcik. Not to me, not in my presence.
Mr.Belin. All right, then, what did you do?
Mr.Adamcik. I was asked by Captain Fritz to take these people home, and he wanted me to take someone with me, and I took Lieutenant McKinney, who was one of the lieutenants in the forgery bureau. I used his car, and he went along with me to take these people home.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do? First of all, did they say anything more on the way home about the incident or not?
Mr.Adamcik. No; I believe the only thing I definitely remember is that Marina Oswald kept saying, telling Mrs. Oswald that this was her home, and she still decided she would like to stay here. She didn't want to go back to Russia. I remember her saying that.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember someone saying that through an interpreter?
Mr.Adamcik. Right. Mrs. Paine was there, and she could interpret.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Adamcik. She wasn't real good, but she could speak enough Russian to interpret a little bit.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Adamcik. We took them to Irving, to the Paine house. At this time I believe Mrs. Oswald was the only other person that we took back there to the Paine house that didn't come down to the station with us originally.
Mr.Belin. You mean the mother?
Mr.Adamcik. Yes; the mother, she went back with us.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Adamcik. Well, this was fairly late. I guess it was around 10 o'clock when we got back, so apparently it was around 9 when we started taking them to Irving, and got back about 10.
We just dropped them off at the house and went on back to the office.
Mr.Belin. What did you do when you got back to the office?
Mr.Adamcik. Went to the office and I stayed there a while, and I guess it was around 11 o'clock, I mean the interrogation room in the captain's office, and spent about 15 minutes.
Mr.Belin. Why did you go in the interrogation room?
Mr.Adamcik. Well, at that time I think somebody else just finished talking to him, and I think the captain had to go see somebody or something, and nobody was in the room at the time, and he told us to go on in there for a little while and see whether we could talk to Oswald.
I think Detective Montgomery went in there with me, I am not sure.
Mr.Belin. Were you the only two in there at that time?
Mr.Adamcik. Yes; I think so. The ID Bureau came in there and either fingerprinted him or done something. When they came in there, I left. It was just a short period of time.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember any conversation that took place there?
Mr.Adamcik. No; except I asked him whether he drove a car. I did ask him that. And I remember him saying something that he didn't.
Mr.Belin. That he did or did not?
Mr.Adamcik. That he did not. And I asked him how long he was in Russia and whether he liked it there, and I remember him telling me how long he was there. I think it was two years, or something like that.
Mr.Belin.Well——
Mr.Adamcik. I don't remember exactly what he said, and he liked it okay, and that is just about it.
Mr.Belin. Did you talk about the assassination at all?
Mr.Adamcik. No; it wasn't anything at all concerned with the assassination.
Mr.Belin. Did you ask him any questions?
Mr.Adamcik. We did.
Mr.Belin. Like what kind of questions?
Mr.Adamcik. Like where were you at the time this assassination occurred; and he just wouldn't say anything.
Mr.Belin. Did he just keep quiet?