AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN RENE HEINDEL

(S)Allen D. Graf,Allen D. Graf.

The following affidavit was executed by John Rene Heindel on May 19, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSIONON THE ASSASSINATION OFPRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of Louisiana,Parish of New Orleans, ss:

I, John Rene Heindel, 812 Belleville Street, New Orleans, Louisiana, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from July 15, 1957, until July 15, 1961. I was stationed at Atsugi, Japan, with Lee Harvey Oswald.

I recall that Oswald was often in trouble for failure to adhere to rules and regulations and gave the impression of disliking any kind of authority.

While in the Marine Corps, I was often referred to as "Hidell"—pronounced so as to rhyme with "Rydell" rather than "Fidel." This was a nickname and not merely an inadvertent mispronounciation. It is possible that Oswald might have heard me being called by this name; indeed he may himself have called me "Hidell." However, I have no specific recollection of his either using or hearing this name.

Although I generally regarded Oswald as an intelligent person, I did not observe him to be particularly interested in politics or international affairs.

While in Japan, Oswald drank a good deal, at times becoming intoxicated. He was willing to do so because he did not greatly care whether or not he got back to the post on time.

Oswald did not often talk back to his superiors, but was likely to complain about their orders when he was alone with his fellow Marines.

Oswald generally went on liberty by himself; I therefore do not know what his activities off post were.

I do not recall Oswald's being called by any nicknames.

Although our Marine Air Group was sent to Formosa for a period of time, I am unable to remember Oswald's being there.

Signed this 19th day of May, 1964, at New Orleans, La.

(S)John Rene Heindel,John Rene Heindel.

The following affidavit was executed by David Christie Murray, Jr. on May 15, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSIONON THE ASSASSINATION OFPRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of Florida,County of Duval, ss:

I, David Christie Murray, Jr., 1419 Pinewood Road North, Jacksonville Beach, Florida, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from approximately October, 1956, to October, 1959. I served with Lee Harvey Oswald in MACS-9 at the Lighter Than Air Station at Santa Anna, California. Part of the time I was stationed at Santa Anna, I was married and therefore during that time lived off the base. While at Santa Anna, I served also with a Marine named Nelson Delgado, whom I had previously known while I was stationed at Parris Island, South Carolina. My impression is that at this time Delgado was an immature person with few original thoughts.

Oswald did not often associate with his fellow Marines. Although I know of no general explanation for this, I personally stayed away from Oswald because I had heard a rumor to the effect that he was homosexual. I personally observed nothing to support this rumor, and am not sure that I heard it from more than one person. Oswald seldom, if ever, went out with women; this may have been one of the reasons I came to the conclusion that he might have been homosexual.

Oswald complained about orders given him more than the average Marine did. He was a person who was never satisfied with any event or situation. He was quietly sarcastic. Though he tried to be witty, in my opinion his attempts at humor failed. However, he—unlike Delgado—was not a show-off; he did not seem to want to be the center of attention.

I regarded Oswald as quite intelligent, and, prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, was of the opinion that he had received a college education. I am under the impression that he told me that he was a college graduate, but I may have come to this conclusion because he once spoke to me of going to Officer Candidate School.

Oswald was not personally neat, but he performed his job well. When I knew him, he was studying Russian. He often made remarks in Russian; the less intelligent members of the unit admired him for this.

I do not recall Oswald's making any remarks on the subject of religion. Nor do I recall his drinking. Although I do not remember his getting into any fights, he had a "chip on the shoulder" personality which would be likely to involve him in fights. I do not remember his studying either Spanish or German.

Although I recall that Oswald read a great deal, I do not remember what sort of books he read. He played chess a good deal, particularly with Richard Call. I have no recollection of his enjoying music. Nor do I remember his making any trips off post, or his subscribing to a Russian newspaper.

Most of his fellow Marines called Oswald "Lee." I do not remember his being called "Oz".

Signed this 15th day of May, 1964, at Duval County, Fla.

(S)David Christie Murray, Jr.,David Christie Murray, Jr.

The following affidavit was executed by Paul Edward Murphy on May 16, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSIONON THE ASSASSINATION OFPRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of California,County of Orange, ss:

I, Paul Edward Murphy, 1706 South Evergreen Street, Apartment C, Santa Ana, California, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from June, 1956, to September, 1959. I was stationed at Atsugi, Japan, and thereafter at Santa Ana, California, with Lee Harvey Oswald.

The unit which was stationed at Atsugi spent four to six weeks in Okinawa late in 1957. It also spent some time in the Philippines, where it was at times at bases at Subic Bay and Cubi Point. Another trip took it to Corregidor.

Oswald was self-contained and withdrawn. He complained about orders he had received from superiors, but followed them.

Although Oswald did not normally expound to me his political or ideological views, I am of the opinion that he was generally in sympathy with Castro.

One night in the barracks in Japan, I heard a shot in an adjoining cubicle. I rushed into the cubicle to find Oswald sitting on a foot locker looking at a wound in his arm. When I asked what had happened, Oswald very unemotionally replied, "I believe I shot myself". Oswald was at that time in possession of a small calibre pistol which he was not authorized to possess.

While at Santa Ana, Oswald had a subscription to a newspaper printed in English which I believe was titled either "The Worker" or "The Socialist Worker." Members of the unit saw copies of this paper as they passed through the mailroom; when the paper was identified as being directed to Oswald, few were surprised. I do not recall Oswald's receiving other literature of a Socialist nature.

I remember that Oswald could speak a little Russian, even when he was overseas. I have no recollection of his studying either Spanish or German.

Oswald was proficient at his assigned job, but he was below average in the areas of discipline and military courtesy. He was, however, personally quite neat.

Although Oswald drank, he did not drink excessively. His temperament was such that he would push companions to the verge of fighting him, but seldom, if ever, actually took the step of engaging in a fight.

It is my opinion that Oswald was of average intelligence. He read a great deal at the library at Atsugi. I do not recall what sort of books he read. He also went to the movies a great deal. I have no specific recollection of his appreciation of classical music, although I remember that Oswald—like everyone else—watched Dick Clark's American Bandstand on television. Oswald also played chess.

I have no recollection concerning Oswald's religious beliefs.

I can recall Oswald having no dates while stationed at Santa Ana. While overseas, however, Oswald had an active social life as most other Marines. Oswald seldom left the post at Santa Ana; I do not know where he went on those occasions when he did leave.

Oswald was nicknamed "Harvey" after "Harvey the Rabbit", a movie which was then circulating. So far as I know, Oswald acquired this nickname for no reason other than that it was his middle name.

I do not recall Oswald's receiving any visitors.

Signed this 16th day of May, 1964, at Santa Ana, Calif.

(S)Paul Edward Murphy,Paul Edward Murphy.

The following affidavit was executed by Henry J. Roussel, Jr., on May 25, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSIONON THE ASSASSINATION OFPRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of Louisiana,Parish of Baton Rouge, ss:

I, Henry J. Roussel, Jr., 2172 Elissalde Street, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That while in the United States Marine Corps I served for approximatelythree or four months with Lee Harvey Oswald in MACS-9 in Santa Ana, California.

On one occasion I arranged a date for Oswald with my aunt, Rosaleen Quinn, an airline stewardess who, because she was interested in working for the American Embassy in Russia, had taken a leave from her job in order to study Russian. I arranged the date because I knew of Oswald's study of the Russian language. I also arranged a date for my aunt with Lieutenant John E. Donovan. I am under the impression that prior to studying Russian, Oswald had studied German.

I recall no serious political remarks on the part of Oswald. On occasion, however, Oswald, when addressing other Marines, would refer to them as "Comrade." It seemed to me—and, as far as I know, to my fellow Marines—that Oswald used this term in fun. At times some of us responded by callinghim"Comrade." Oswald also enjoyed listening to recordings of Russian songs.

My recollection of Oswald is to the effect that he was personally quite neat, and that he stayed to himself. Oswald complained about orders that he was given, but no more than did the average Marine. I regarded Oswald as quite intelligent, in view of the fact that he had taught himself two foreign languages. I do not recall Oswald's having any dates other than the one which I arranged for him with my aunt.

I do not remember Oswald's getting into any fights. I have no recollection concerning Oswald's reading habits, religious beliefs, or trips off the post. I do not remember his reading a Russian newspaper, and do not recall his having any nicknames. (I was nicknamed "Beezer.") I do not remember Oswald's having his name written in Russian on his jacket, and have no recollection of any visitors received by Oswald.

Signed this 25th day of May, 1964, at Baton Rouge, La.

(S)Henry J. Roussel, Jr.,Henry J. Roussel, Jr.

The following affidavit was executed by Mack Osborne on May 18, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSIONON THE ASSASSINATION OFPRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of TexasCounty of Lubbock, ss:

I, Mack Osborne, 2816 43rd Street, Lubbock, Texas, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That while I was in the United States Marine Corps, I served in Marine Air Control Squadron 9 in Santa Ana, California, with Lee Harvey Oswald. Prior to his discharge, I shared a room with him.

Oswald was at that time studying Russian. He spent a great deal of his free time reading papers printed in Russian—which I believe he bought in Los Angeles—with the aid of a Russian-English dictionary. I believe he also had some books written in Russian, although I do not remember their names.

I once asked Oswald why he did not go out in the evening like the other men. He replied that he was saving his money, making some statement to the effect that one day he would do something which would make him famous. In retrospect, it is my belief—although he said nothing to this effect—that he had his trip to Russia in mind when he made this statement.

Although Oswald did not directly talk back to his superiors, he did the tasks assigned him poorly and complained about them to his fellow Marines.

My recollection is that Oswald was a radar operator of average ability. Although he was personally clean, he scored quite poorly on barracks inspections.

Although Oswald was not openly hostile to his fellow Marines, when they asked him to participate in their activities, he would refuse, stating that he had something else to do. He thereby encouraged others to leave him alone.

Oswald drank only in clubs located on the post. He explained to me that he did not drink off the post because while stationed in Japan, he had been court-martialed for hitting a sergeant with a beer bottle. I do not recall his having any fights while at Santa Ana. However, I remember Oswald's telling me of a fight with a brig guard, as well as of the fight with the sergeant, in Japan.

I do not recall Oswald's studying either Spanish or German. I do not recall any remarks on his part concerning Communism, Russia, or Cuba. Because of the fact that he was studying Russian, fellow Marines sometimes jokingly accused him of being a Russian spy. In my opinion he took such accusations in fun.

Although I did not regard Oswald as particularly intelligent, I got the idea that he thought he was intelligent and tried verbally to suggest to others that he was.

Oswald read a great deal, although I do not remember what sort of books he read. He also watched television and played chess. I have no recollection of any interest in music on his part. Although he would discuss religion with others, he was noncommital as to his own opinions.

Oswald seldom, if ever, went out with women. I suspect that this was part of his program on saving money. He seldom left the post, although sometimes when I returned from weekends, he would tell me that he had been to Los Angeles—implying that he had simply gone to break the monotony.

I do not recall Oswald's having any nicknames. He was simply called "Oswald" or—by those who knew him well—"Lee Harvey".

I have no recollection of Oswald's receiving any visitors.

Signed this 18th day of May, 1964, at Lubbock, Tex.

(S)Mack Osborne,Mack Osborne.

The following affidavit was executed by Richard Dennis Call on May 20, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSIONON THE ASSASSINATION OFPRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of PennsylvaniaCounty of Northampton, ss:

I, Richard Dennis Call, R. D. 1, Hellertown, Pennsylvania, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from September, 1956, to December, 1959. From December, 1958, to December, 1959, I was stationed with Marine Air Control Squadron #9, Lighter Than Air Station, Santa Ana, California. During this time I made the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald. I lived in the ensign hut next to, and was on the same radar crew as, Oswald. I estimate that I talked to some extent with Oswald each day during the period that we were stationed together.

It was very difficult to evaluate Oswald's personality because he never talked about his life prior to joining the Marine Corps or about what he did while in the Marine Corps. Although by the usual standards I was just an acquaintance of Oswald, I probably was one of his best friends.

Oswald once dated an airline stewardess who was learning Russian.

Oswald spent a great deal of time reading. I do not remember what he read, because he never talked about it. He also spent a great deal of time playing chess. I played chess with him about once a week; we were of approximately equal ability.

Although members of the unit often had discussions on foreign affairs, Oswald seldom, if ever, participated.

During this time, Oswald was studying Russian. For this reason many members of the unit kidded him about being a Russian spy; Oswald seemed to enjoy this sort of remark. At that time I had a phonograph record of Russian classicalpieces entitled "Russian Fireworks." When I would play this record, Oswald would come over to me and say "You called?" I had a chess set which contained red and white chessmen; Oswald always chose the red chessmen, making some remark to the effect that he preferred the "Red Army." In connection with this general joking about Oswald's interest in Russian, he was nicknamed "Oswaldskovich." However, I do not recall Oswald's making serious remarks with regard to the Soviet Union or Cuba.

On one occasion, Oswald remarked to me that he had been awarded a scholarship to Albert Schweitzer University and that he planned to attend, remarking that they taught English at Schweitzer.

I believe Oswald generally remained on the post; I do not remember anyone's going on liberty with him. Sometimes he and I went to the base movie theatre.

Oswald was not enthusiastic about his job, and performed about as well as the average radar operator.

Although I sometimes observed Oswald drinking in the Enlisted Men's Club, I do not remember his ever becoming intoxicated.

Oswald complained about the orders he was given, but no more than did the average Marine. However, it was my opinion that the Staff Non-Commissioned Officers did not think of Oswald as capable. In my opinion, this attitude was a result of the fact that Oswald did not try to hide his lack of enthusiasm.

I have no recollection of Oswald's studying either Spanish or German.

It was difficult to tell how intelligent Oswald was, because of his refusal to communicate. It was clear, however, that Oswaldwantedto be thought of as intelligent.

Nelson Delgado was at this time devoutly religious. Another Marine from California, who at that time was interested in Zen Buddhism, had an idol of Buddha solely for the purpose of making Delgado angry. He succeeded in this attempt. Oswald enjoyed this successful attempt to anger Delgado.

Oswald's reactions to everything were subdued and Stoic.

Oswald's hardship discharge came as a surprise to the members of the unit; we had not known of it long in advance. I have no recollection of Oswald's receiving any visitors.

Signed this 20th day of May, 1964, at Helltown, Pa.

(S)Richard Dennis Call,Richard Dennis Call.

The following affidavit was executed by Erwin Donald Lewis on June 6, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSIONON THE ASSASSINATION OFPRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of CaliforniaOrange County, ss:

I, Erwin Donald Lewis, 9682 Mystic Lane, Anaheim, California, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That while I was in the United States Marine Corps, I served in Marine Air Control Squadron #9 in Santa Ana, California, with Lee Harvey Oswald. I knew him only casually as a working acquaintance.

Oswald, a radar operator, was very quiet, kept to himself, and did not appear to have any close friends. To the best of my knowledge, he seldom left the base.

It was a matter of common knowledge among squadron members that he could read, write, and speak Russian.

I know from personal observation that he read the "Daily Worker." I heard—although of this I am not completely certain—that he had a subscription to that publication.

Signed this 6th day of June, 1964.

(S)Erwin Donald Lewis,Erwin Donald Lewis.

The testimony of Martin Isaacs was taken on April 16, 1964, at the U.S. courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y. by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Martin Isaacs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr.Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

The Commission has also established rules of procedure governing the taking of testimony from witnesses, and under those rules of procedure each witness is to be furnished with a copy of the Executive order and joint resolution to which I referred, as well as with a copy of the rules governing the taking of testimony.

The Commission will provide you with a set of those documents.

Under the rules governing the taking of testimony, each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to appear and give testimony. I don't know whether you actually received 3 days' notice or not,but——

Mr.Isaacs. They told me yesterday about it. It's quite all right.

Mr.Liebeler. Each witness is able to waive that notice, and I presume that you do wish to waive it.

Mr.Isaacs. I waive, yes.

Mr.Liebeler. Thank you, sir.

We want to inquire briefly of you today concerning any contacts which you or your office may have had with Lee Harvey Oswald and his family upon Oswald's return from Russia in approximately June of 1962.

Before we get into the details of that testimony, however, would you state your full name for the record?

Mr.Isaacs. Martin Isaacs.

Mr.Liebeler. Where do you live, sir?

Mr.Isaacs. 1669 Grand Avenue, Bronx, New York.

Mr.Liebeler. Where are you employed at the present time?

Mr.Isaacs. I am employed by the Special Services Welfare Center, Department of Welfare, City of New York, 42 Franklin Street.

Mr.Liebeler. Were you so employed in June of 1962?

Mr.Isaacs. Yes, sir.

Mr.Liebeler. When and where were you born, Mr. Isaacs?

Mr.Isaacs. I was born in Hungary, December 12, 1904.

Mr.Liebeler. When did you come to the United States?

Mr.Isaacs. I was about 2 or 3 years old. I don't recall exactly.

Mr.Liebeler. Are you presently a citizen of this country?

Mr.Isaacs. I am a citizen, yes; derivative citizenship.

Mr.Liebeler. Your parents?

Mr.Isaacs. My father became a citizen, and, of course, I received derivative citizenship.

Mr.Liebeler. How long have you employed by the department of welfare?

Mr.Isaacs. Since May 12, 1934.

Mr.Liebeler. And this is the Department of Welfare of the City of New York; is that correct?

Mr.Isaacs. That is right.

Mr.Liebeler. Do you recall personally coming into contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and his family?

Mr.Isaacs. I do recall coming into personal contact; yes, sir.

Mr.Liebeler. Would you give us the best recollection that you have concerning that event?

Mr.Isaacs. I was told by our intake, I believe it was, that the family was inthe Welfare Center. If I recollect correctly, I think the Travelers Aid Society sent them here. I am not positive about this.

My worker, Mr. Lehrman, as I remember, was not available at the time to go in and see the family. I believe he was in the field at the time. He is a social investigator in the Department of Welfare. I went in to ascertain whether I could expedite getting the information that would be needed to help this family return to Texas.

Mr.Liebeler. You had been informed at that time that they desired to return to Texas?

Mr.Isaacs. Yes; the intake worker, I can't remember who it was at the moment—I am sorry, I don't remember the name of the worker who handled the family inside of our intake—told us that this family was in the office, and I think we obtained sufficient information at the time to make a clearance to determine whether the family is actually a repatriated family.

In many instances people come to us and tell us that they were repatriated when in effect they weren't. They are, in other words, sent here incorrectly to our office. When we clear, we find out that they are not repatriates, and so they must be handled in a different manner.

Mr.Liebeler. When you say "repatriates," what do you mean, sir?

Mr.Isaacs. A repatriate is one who is a United States citizen, who was living abroad and finds himself, either because of economic circumstances or because of ill health unable to maintain himself there, and so they go—either they go directly to our Embassy in the country in which they reside or they are directed to go there or the Embassy learns about this from the government in which they live, and so they are helped to return to the United States. In some instances they ask to be returned. In other instances they are ordered to be returned. For example, if the person is mentally ill. In this case we did clear, and we ascertained that they were repatriates, and so the role that I played in this as I remember—using my memoryhere——

Mr.Liebeler. Let me ask you this, if I may, Mr. Isaacs, before you go into that.

Mr.Isaacs. Yes.

Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember how you determined that the Oswald family was a repatriated family?

Mr.Isaacs. Yes. This is the way it was done: We get the information from the family. In this instance I think it was done by the intake worker. He got certain facts. I assume that Mr. Oswald gave them all these facts, that he went to Russia in a certain period of his life, and what happened there, and then when he returned and why he returned.

When we get all this data, we present that to our administrator, Mrs. Ruscoll, and she contacts the New York State Department of Social Welfare, who is the immediate representative, to determine these facts. The person that she would call is a Miss Elliott, Miss Lula Jean Elliott.

Mr.Liebeler. She is with the New York StateDepartment——

Mr.Isaacs. The Department of Social Welfare. Then Miss Elliott called the U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, and, of course, we understand that this is the means they used to get the information, and they call Washington, and when they have this information it is relayed back in the same way. And then the administrator tells us, yes, he is a repatriate. And in this instance, this is what actually happened, as I remember it. We were told that they were.

Now, we have a policy of calling whatever relatives are available to determine whether relatives could meet the cost of their return. In this instance he asked to be returned to Texas, and we did get enough information in our application blank to show that there was a brother—I believe it was Robert—who lived in Texas, and I made a telephone call to the brother. The brother was not in, and I spoke with his wife—I don't remember her first name—and I told her that Mr. Oswald was here with his wife and infant, and they wanted to return to Texas, and would they be able to raise sufficient funds to meet this cost. She was very happy, apparently, to learn that they had arrived already—evidently they had some advance notice—and she immediately said she will callher husband and make arrangements to send this money—I don't remember the amount that was involved.

Mr.Liebeler. Was Oswald present at the time you made this telephone call?

Mr.Isaacs. No, no. I make that call in my own office. We never make it in their presence.

Now, when I got this information, and she told me—her name was also Oswald, Mrs. Robert Oswald, we will say—she told me that this money would be sent. I went in, and this was the first contact that I had with Mr. Oswald. I—excuseme——

Mr.Liebeler. You first called the home of Robert Oswald in Texas and spoke to his wife?

Mr.Isaacs. That's right.

Mr.Liebeler. And she told you that she would call her husband and find out if they could make the money available? Did she then call you back?

Mr.Isaacs. I can't remember whether it was just that way. I'm uncertain about that. I'm sorry about that. I think that she said, "I will call him and send the money." I'm not positive, but I think that's the way it happened, because I don't remember her calling me back.

In any event, I gave her all the information, gave her my name. We always, in this kind of thing, because when the money comes in, they don't know to whom to direct the money. So I gave her my name and told her to send the money attention Martin Isaacs. When I went in and told the Oswalds about this—Mrs. Oswald, of course, cannot speak English—at that time.

Mr.Liebeler. Did you try to speak to her?

Mr.Isaacs. I tried to speak to her, but she couldn't speak a single word. And he told me that she can't speak any English. But when I told him that I contacted his sister-in-law, he was quite angered, he was really very upset, and told us, told me that he did not want to accept this money, that this was a brother who did not have a large income, and that we should meet this cost ourselves. And I told him what our policy was, that in all instances we are required by law to request that relatives or friends, if there are such friends available, meet these expenses, if they can.

Now, in this instance, his sister-in-law said that she would send the money, so we would have to accept this. He did not want to accept our decision on this. He insisted that he see the administrator of our office, because he wanted to protest my having made this phone call and asking for the money.

Mr.Liebeler. You had done this without tellinghim——

Mr.Isaacs. That's right.

Mr.Liebeler. That you were going to do it?

Mr.Isaacs. We as a rule do not have to ask these people. What we can do in some instances is to find out what the occupation of the relative is, which I think we got in our intake interview. You see, I'm not positive about this, again, because I think that the worker got his—the brother's name and address, whatever other information they usually get about relatives.

Anyhow, to expedite matters, we always do it just this way. This is not anything unusual with us. We call, and if we are lucky, and somebody—someone tells us that they can send the money, we use these funds to meet the transportation expenses to the place they are requesting to return to.

Let's see—you want me—excuse me. Did you want me to continue?

Mr.Liebeler. Yes; please go right ahead and tell us.

Mr.Isaacs. Because he protested so vehemently, I went to the administrator, or Mrs. Ruscoll, the administrator, and asked her what we were to do about this matter, and she decided to interview Mr. Oswald herself.

I do know that Mrs. Ruscoll spent considerable time with Mr. Oswald, although I don't know just what had transpired between them.

Mr.Liebeler. You were not present during that conference?

Mr.Isaacs. I was not present, yes, sir; during her interview with him.

Later, however, she informed me that she telephoned Miss Elliott of the New York State Department of Social Welfare, who instructed Mrs. Ruscoll to use these funds despite his protestations, which we proceeded to do, and Mrs. Ruscoll then notified him personally that these funds have to be used for the family's return fare.

Mr.Liebeler. You did not have the final conversation with Oswald on that subject yourself?

Mr.Isaacs. I had no conversation with him—my conversation with him was quite brief. My conversation consisted of just telling him that we were using these funds. It was a most brief conversation, as I remember it.

Mr.Liebeler. Now, did you have any other contact with Oswald after Mrs. Ruscoll told him that these funds had to be used?

Mr.Isaacs. I don't believe I did have any. I can't remember. What I did, I think, was to instruct the investigator to take him to some hotel downtown that he would have to stay at until arrangements could be made for his return the next day.

Mr.Liebeler. So Oswald then, as far as you know, stayed in New York overnight that night?

Mr.Isaacs. As far as I know, that is what happened, and I think that the investigator was instructed to get him out the next morning, I believe it was.

Incidentally, Mr. Liebeler, we did not have to spend any money on him at all. He had some money on him when he arrived here. I don't remember exactly how much he had, but he said that he could meet the expense at the hotel, as I recall it.

Mr.Liebeler. Did you yourself prepare any reports on the Oswald case, Mr. Isaacs, as best you can recall?

Mr.Isaacs. When you say "reports," I would like you to be specific.

Mr.Liebeler. Did you dictate a memorandum?

Mr.Isaacs. Yes. My telephone conversation with his sister-in-law I believe was dictated in there. I don't remember now whether I indicated or not that he would not not accept our decision. I might have put that in there to point up the fact that I reported this to the administrator.

Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember whether you had this difficulty with Lee Oswald immediately after you called Texas, or could it have been on the next day, do you remember?

Mr.Isaacs. I don't remember if there was a next day. I can't recall that at all, sir.

Mr.Liebeler. The best of your recollection is that you saw him just on one day?

Mr.Isaacs. Yes. I don't remember whether there was any other time that I saw him. I think he was in the office that one time.

Mr.Liebeler. What is the address of your office?

Mr.Isaacs. 42 Franklin Street.

Mr.Liebeler. And that is where Mr. Oswald came in at that time; is that correct?

Mr.Isaacs. Yes, sir.

Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether Lee Oswald had talked to his brother, Robert, about this money that Robert was going to send to New York?

Mr.Isaacs. I don't recall whether he—not in my presence.

Mr.Liebeler. And to the best of your recollection, you did not learn from any other source that he had talked to Robert Oswald about it; is that correct?

Mr.Isaacs. That is right, I think that is correct, sir.

Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any conversation with Oswald as to his return from Russia?

Mr.Isaacs. I don't recall having such a conversation with him.

Mr.Liebeler. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI in connection with this matter?

Mr.Isaacs. Oh, yes, sir; I do.

Mr.Liebeler. I have a report of an FBI interview that indicates that you had told the FBI agent that you received the impression that Oswald had had difficulty in leaving Russia, but you recalled a statement by Oswald to the effect that he "caused so much trouble in Russia that they had to send me back home." Do you remember saying anything like that to the FBI agent?

Mr.Isaacs. I don't recall saying anything like that. Of course, this is what the intake worker had said, and this is what was circulated around in the office, but I don't recall having—I did not speak with Oswald, and I don't recall having gotten this from him myself.

Mr.Liebeler. Had you heard statements in the office to the effect that Oswald had said that?

Mr.Isaacs. Yes; that's right.

Mr.Liebeler. You understood that Oswald had made a statement such as this to the intake worker when he came into the office?

Mr.Isaacs. Probably he made that statement to the intake worker; yes, sir.

Mr.Liebeler. Had you heard in the office that he had made that statement to the intake worker, or was it just conversation in the office, thatOswald——

Mr.Isaacs. I think it was conversation, rather than anything else, as I remember it.

Mr.Liebeler. We have obtained a file from the New York City Department of Welfare which contains certain documents relating to the Oswald case, and I would like to mark as Exhibit No. 1 on the deposition of Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, at New York, N.Y., a document entitled "History Sheet," consisting of eight pages, fastened together with a clip. I have initialed the first page of this exhibit, Mr. Isaacs, and I would like to have you initial it next to my initials, if you would, so that we have no confusion as to the identification of this document.

Mr.Isaacs. Sure.

(Document entitled "History Sheet," consisting of eight pages, marked Exhibit 1.)

Mr.Liebeler. This is, is it not, a document which was taken from the files provided by the New York City Welfare Department?

Mr.Isaacs. This is, sir.

Mr.Liebeler. Do you recognize it as a type of report that is prepared at a time when a client appears in your office?

Mr.Isaacs. I do.

Mr.Liebeler. Do you recognize it as the history sheet relating to Lee Oswald?

Mr.Isaacs. I do.

Mr.Liebeler. I show you a single sheet which is entitled "Resource Summary" and ask you if you recognize that as a form that is usually filled out by an applicant.

Mr.Isaacs. I do recognize this as a form that we use in the department.

Mr.Liebeler. That particular form here appears to be a carbon, does it not?

Mr.Isaacs. What happens is that the original goes to the resource consultant. We have a special section of the Department of Welfare that receives these forms, and if it has any material on there that warrants further investigation the resource section conducts the investigation, but in this instance, as you will note, they said no resources in each place in the form, and we just filed this in our record.

Mr.Liebeler. The original of that would have been filed in the records of the resource consultant; is that right?

Mr.Isaacs. I believe so, sir.

Mr.Liebeler. I will mark the single sheet entitled "Resource Summary" as Exhibit No. 2 on the deposition of Mr. Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, in New York, N.Y. I have initialed that document also, Mr. Isaacs, and ask that you initial it for the purposes of identification.

Mr.Isaacs. Yes, sir.

(Document entitled "Resource Summary" marked Exhibit 2.)

Mr.Liebeler. Do you recognize that particular resource sheet as the resource sheet that was filled out in connection with the Lee Oswald case?

Mr.Isaacs. Yes, sir.

Mr.Liebeler. I have marked as Exhibit No. 3 on the deposition of Mr. Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, in New York, N.Y., a memorandum from Lula Jean Elliott, senior welfare consultant, to Mrs. Ruscoll, supervisor of the special services welfare center, dated June 14, 1962, relating to the repatriation from the U.S.S.R. of Oswald, Lee, and family, consisting of wife and 4 months' infant. I have initialed the memorandum to which I have just referred and request that you do the same for the purposes of identification, down at the bottom.

(Witness complies.)

Mr.Liebeler. Do you recognize this as memorandum from Miss Elliott?

Mr.Isaacs. Lula Jean Elliott.

Mr.Liebeler. To Mrs. Ruscoll?

Mr.Isaacs. Yes.

Mr.Liebeler. That memorandum came from the files of the New York State Department of Welfare in connection with the Oswald case? You recognize that, do you not?

Mr.Isaacs. I do, sir.

Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any recollection of any other event that you yourself personally experienced with Oswald during this short contact that you had with him that you haven't told us about?

Mr.Isaacs. There was nothing else that I could remember that was different from what I had told you. It was just this flare-up with him, which was somewhat dramatic, and because it was I thought it merited bringing it to the attention of the administrator. We don't always request that an administrator get in on a situation with us, because she's not always available, and she as a rule does not want to get involved. But in this particular case because it was a repatriate, and we do deal with repatriates in a somewhat different manner—the Federal Government is involved, because they reimburse us 100 percent for all expenses—we did deem it necessary in this particular instance to bring it to the attention of the administrator.

But to answer your original question, there was nothing else that I can recall. I remember, just as they were leaving the office, walking in that direction to just see that they were going down the elevator—we assigned a worker—it wasn't Mr. Lehrman, as I remember; it was some other worker—to just go with them to the hotel and help them along with their luggage, et cetera.

The only other thing that I can remember was the administrator taking his wife into the office—the clients very rarely go into the interior of the office—and bringing her back toward her office. It's an office that's over a block long—or a block long—and later I learned that she brought her there because Mrs. Oswald wanted to breastfeed the childand——

Mr.Liebeler. So the administrator took her back into the office? To feed the child?

Mr.Isaacs. Yes; to feed the child.

Mr.Liebeler. What prompted you to call this case to the attention of the administrator? Was it, as you have indicated, simply that it was a repatriation case, or was it because of some peculiarity in the behavior of this individual, or was it a combination of those?

Mr.Isaacs. Well, I would say it was a combination. He was rather severe in his manner—for want of a better description at this time. He was insistent. He stomped around and simply would not accept the decision that this money would be forthcoming. And as a rule we don't get this kind of reaction from the clients that we deal with. They accept this kind of service that they get from us, and in fact they are very happy to receive it, and they are very grateful. In this case we had a different kind of attitude. It was one of resentment, and we couldn't, at least on my level I felt I couldn't insist that he take it until—rather accept the decision until I cleared with the administrator.

Now, even Mrs. Ruscoll found it necessary because of his—I assume because of the discussion that she had with him, she found it necessary to call Miss Elliott, and Miss Elliott did, of course, supervise our section, and her decision was to be final, and this is the decision we used.

Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any other information in respect of this incident or in respect of Oswald generally that you can think of at this time that you think might be helpful in connection with this report?

Mr.Isaacs. Well, I don't have any other information. All I can say is that when this incident occurred, it did not cross our mind that the—the name Oswald meant nothing to us. It did not cross our minds that this was the person, and when we were looking at this on TV and just hearing the story without actually getting a visual picture of Lee Oswald it still didn't register with us. It was after I had seen the picture on the screen and was horrified—well, we were horrified without having seen that, but the additional horror because it was somebody that you had actually met and helped to return to Texas.

At that point I called Mrs. Ruscoll and asked her if she knew who this LeeOswald was. She said she was calling Miss Bloomfield, who is her—the field supervisor, and they said that—Mrs. Ruscoll said that she's pretty certain that this is the person that we had met and helped to return to Texas, and it was that—I think it was that telephone conversation that was responsible for her having the case record pulled the very next morning by our central office. Miss Bloomfield works out of central office, and she—the case was no longer there, and she gave it to the commissioner, as I remember it, and, of course, then I read it in the newspaper that the commissioner had given this record to the FBI.

Now, beyond that, I really—I wish I could be more helpful, but I am sorry to say that this is all I know about the case.

Mr.Liebeler. You have been very helpful, Mr. Isaacs. On behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very much for coming in this afternoon and giving us the testimony and producing the records that you have. It is another example of the way in which the City of New York has cooperated with the Commission and with the FBI in its work. We appreciate it very much.

Isaacs. We are only too happy to help.

The testimony of Pauline Virginia Bates was taken at 5:32 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Bates, will you stand and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear in your testimony which you are about to give, to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs.Bates. I do.

Mr.Jenner. It's Mrs. Bates, is it not?

Mrs.Bates. It's Miss. I'm not married. It's optional—I have been. My name is Pauline.

Mr.Jenner. Pauline Virginia—isn't it?

Mrs.Bates. Yes.

Mr.Jenner. This is Pauline Virginia Bates.

Mrs. Bates, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the legal staff for the Presidential Assassination Commission and have been authorized by the Commission to depose you—take your deposition, make inquiries of you with respect to the subject matter of the inquiry of the Commission.

Did you receive, oh, last week, I would think, a letter from J. Lee Rankin, general counsel for the Commission?

Mrs.Bates. Yes, sir.

Mr.Jenner. And enclosed with that letter is a copy of the Executive order of President Lyndon B. Johnson on November 29, 1963, Number 11130, and a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution, Number 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission, together with a copy of the Rules of Procedure of the Commission?

Mrs.Bates. Yes, sir.

Mr.Jenner. And, Mrs. Bates, you appear voluntarily at our request?

Mrs.Bates. Yes, sir.

Mr.Jenner. The Commission, as you have noted from those enclosed papers, has been ordered, directed to inquire into all facts and circumstances surrounding, leading up to, and those appearing after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, the President of the United States, and any contacts on your part with any of the parties.

We understand that you, during his lifetime, had some contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and I think, in fact, transcribed some manuscript notes of his?

Mrs.Bates. They weren't transcribed; they were copied.

Mr.Jenner. You copied them?

Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh.

Mr.Jenner. Well, I meant transcribed in that sense. You transcribed them from longhand into typing?

Mrs.Bates. Well, some of them were typewritten, some of them were written in longhand pencil, some of it was written in pen.

Mr.Jenner. Oh, is that so.

Mrs.Bates. It was scraps of paper. Some of it was on just like bag paper. Some of it was just little scraps of paper—whatever he could find.

Mr.Jenner. Where do you reside now?

Mrs.Bates. In Fort Worth.

Mr.Jenner. And how long have you resided in Fort Worth?

Mrs.Bates. Ten years last November.

Mr.Jenner. What is your business, occupation, or profession?

Mrs.Bates. I'm a legal public stenographer.

Mr.Jenner. And how long have you been a legal public stenographer?

Mrs.Bates. In Fort Worth, 10 years—a little over 10 years.

Mr.Jenner. And is there a difference between being a legal public stenographer and a public stenographer?

Mrs.Bates. Well, I think so. I think I'm the only one in Fort Worth that has legal training.

Mr.Jenner. That's what I wish to bring out. You are a public stenographer and you seek to direct your talents primarily toward law work?

Mrs.Bates. Yes.

Mr.Jenner. Lawyers, court reporting, and that sort of thing?

Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh—well, I haven't done any court reporting. I have done work for court reporters—transcribe for them, and things like that.

Mr.Jenner. Are you a citizen of the United States?

Mrs.Bates. Yes, sir.

Mr.Jenner. You are a native born American?

Mrs.Bates. Yes, sir—Forest Grove, Oreg.

Mr.Jenner. How long have you resided in the Fort Worth-Dallas area?

Mrs.Bates. Ten years last November.

Mr.Jenner. And you came from where?

Mrs.Bates. Oakland, Calif.

Mr.Jenner. And what was your business or occupation when you were in Oakland, Calif.?

Mrs.Bates. Legal stenographer—legal secretary.

Mr.Jenner. That has always been your—insofar as you have had a business or occupation—it's been that?

Mrs.Bates. Except during the war when I worked in the shipyards.

Mr.Jenner. Out on the coast?

Mrs.Bates. Richmond. I have also been a waitress.

Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Bates, if anything seems personal to you, it's not intended as being personal. I'm trying to set the background. And you are at liberty at any time to say to me that you think maybe I'm going too far.

Mrs.Bates. I don't have anything to hide.

Mr.Jenner. All right. I'm sure you don't.

During the time you lived in the Fort Worth-Dallas area, did you have occasion to come in contact with a person known as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs.Bates. He was known to me as Lee Oswald.

Mr.Jenner. All right. With a person known as Lee Oswald? And, just so we understand each other, is the person you knew as Lee Oswald and the person I just called Lee Harvey Oswald the person that you understand to be the man who was accused of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mrs.Bates. Yes. He was one and the same person. I recognized him.

Mr.Jenner. Yes. Now, tell me the circumstances under which that acquaintanceship arose.

Mrs.Bates. He walked into my office one day, said he had gotten my name out of the telephone directory. It so happens it's the first one in the public stenographers.

Mr.Jenner. And how was he attired on that occasion?

Mrs.Bates. He had dark trousers on, a white T-shirt and a blazer-type jacket—a dark blazer-type jacket.

Mr.Jenner. And since he had the T-shirt, he had no tie on?

Mrs.Bates. No; didn't have a shirt on.

Mr.Jenner. No shirt?

Mrs.Bates. Just a little white T-shirt—undershirt.

Mr.Jenner. Yes.

Mrs.Bates. It was in June.

Mr.Jenner. In June? What time of the day or night was it?

Mrs.Bates. It was in the morning. Let's see—I turned those records over to the FBI.

Mr.Jenner. Well, give me your best recollection.

Mrs.Bates. I think it was around 10 or 11 o'clock in the morning, on the 18th of June 1962.

Mr.Jenner. All right. What was said by him and by you?

Mrs.Bates. He asked if I could do some typing for him.

Mr.Jenner. Did he identify himself first?

Mrs.Bates. No. He just walked in. It's not uncommon for people to walk in and say, "Miss Bates, can you do some typing for me?" And I said, "Yes, I could, what was it?" And he said it was—that he was—then, he told me he was Lee Oswald. He said, "First, I want to find out what your prices are and see if I can afford it." So, I gave him my price.

Mr.Jenner. And what did you say?

Mrs.Bates. I said it was either 2½ an hour or a dollar a page.

Mr.Jenner. A page being 8½ by 11—letter-size sheets?

Mrs.Bates. Yes; uh-huh. And I told him it all depended on what the work was and could I see what it was. And he said, "Yes." And he brought out this large manilla envelope, legal size—oh, I think it was 10 by 14 or something—one of those large ones. And he said, "I have some noteshere"——

Mr.Jenner. I have a folder here [showing to witness]—isthat——

Mrs.Bates. No; it's one of those that folds over from the top.

Mr.Jenner. I appreciate that—but I'm holding this up only for size.

Mrs.Bates. Oh! Well, it's approximately that long, but it was a little wider.

Mr.Jenner. The length of this, I think [measuring with ruler]—it's 15 inches.

Mrs.Bates. Well, I have some up at my office. I use them all the time to, you know, send abstracts out in.

Mr.Jenner. That's 15 by 9.

Mrs.Bates. Well, I am sure, as I remember it—of course, now, this was some time ago—it was approximately 10 by 14 or 10 by 15—and it looks like what I use.

Mr.Jenner. And it had a flap on it?

Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh. Just a regular seal at the top. I think they are Carrollton Clasp or something like that.

He said that he had notes that he had smuggled out of Russia. And I looked up at him kinda surprised. I said, "Have you been to Russia?"

He said, "Yes, ma'am. I just got back." And that he had smuggled these notes out of Russia under his clothes, next to his skin.

Mr.Jenner. We fixed the time of this inquiry—didn't we?

Mrs.Bates. Yes; June 18. I mean, when he first came in my office.

Mr.Jenner. 1962?

Mrs.Bates. Uh-huh.

And that he wanted to have them typed by a professional typist. He said, "Some of them are typed on a little portable, some of 'em are handwritten in ink, some of 'em in pencil."

He said, "I'll have to sit right here with you and help you with 'em because some of 'em are in Russian and some of them are in English." So, we agreed that I would do it—but I hadn't seen them yet.

Mr.Jenner. You hadn't seen the notes yet?

Mrs.Bates. Huh-uh.

Mr.Jenner. Did he have a package under his arm on that occasion?

Mrs.Bates. Yes. He had it with him.

Mr.Jenner. What agreement—you mean that you agreed that you would do it? Had you reached a conclusion as to the rate?

Mrs.Bates. Well, I immediately lowered it to $2 an hour. I was anxious to get on it.

Mr.Jenner. Why did you become anxious to get on it?

Mrs.Bates. Well, anybody that had just come back from Russia and had notes, I would like to have seen them. And he didn't look like he had—he looked like a high school kid to me when he first came in. I thought he was just a kid.

Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.

Mrs.Bates. And I do a lot of thesis work for college and high school students.

And then I started asking him some questions—"Why did you go to Russia?"—and a few things like that. Some of 'em he'd answer and some of em he wouldn't.

Mr.Jenner. Now, give me your best recollection of everything that was said on that occasion.

Mrs.Bates. Well, I'm trying to get it in sequence.

Mr.Jenner. Okay.

Mrs.Bates. We agreed that I would start typing the notes—and he wanted an original and one carbon. But he would take the carbon—he wanted the original and one carbon and also take the carbon with him.

Mr.Jenner. He didn't want toleave——

Mrs.Bates. I couldn't keep a copy of anything.

Mr.Jenner. Did you agree that you would do the job under those circumstances?

Mrs.Bates. That's what he wanted—and my customers are always right.

Mr.Jenner. Uh-huh.

Mrs.Bates. Then, I asked him how come he had gone to Russia. I said, "It can't be very easy. How did you arrange it? Why did you want to go?"

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